Guild Wars 2

I posted this back in December 2013…
I am posting again so the history/context is not lost.

Huge flaw in the game that has been known and acknowledged since October 2012.
—————————————————————————————-
John Peters in October (2012): “Condition damage is an issue we are looking into.”
John Peters in February (2013): “Condition damage is an issue we are looking into.”
Original Posts:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/suggestions/No-love-for-condition-builds/page/2#
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Comfirmed-Nothing-being-done-re-conditions/page/4
—————————————————————————————-

It is not ‘hard to balance’.
If one Direct damage character can sustain 1500 DPS for a ‘boss’ fight.
And one Condition damage character can sustain 1500 dps for a ‘boss’ fight
Then 10 of either characters should be able to sustain 15,000 DPS for the ‘boss’ fight.

There is no balance reason that conditions are capped and direct damage is not.
And if it is a technical issue… Blizzard, with their glacial development pace, was able to solve the issue in their ancient WoW engine back in 2008.

Sad!

Ulari <— disappointed

ZudetGambeous.9573:

HardRider.2980:

That age old question

“How to make a wall bleed” … Seriously.. your shocked that objects cannot bleed -.-

and yes no one seems to complain that a wooden dagger is capable of destroying a stone wall in 5 seconds flat… Or that a magic ball of light destroys the same wall… or that kicking the wall in the face destroys it too… or that stabbing a dragon in the foot with toothpicks for 5 minutes kills it and it can’t do anything to stop you…

I mean come on… it’s a video game…

Perfect!

If the devs want to set up scenarios where condition damage is worse or not effective compared to direct damage… that is fine. It is a design decision that is consistent (true when I play solo or in a group). I would hope they also set up scenarios where condition damage was better than direct damage (mobs with ridiculously high armor).

But as I have said before… this is a pipe dream because right now condition damage is useless (in groups of two or more) because it is limited by target.

Ulari

On the condition damage topic, there is a good post about it on these forums (started on 12/17):

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Why-is-condition-damage-intentionally-restricted/first

Short version:
The condition stacking limit on a target is ‘bad’
The stack limit means condition characters do less damage in groups than they do when playing solo.
The stack limit makes direct damage better than condition damage in group settings because direct damage is never reduced by the number of people applying it.
Anet knows this is an issue and has acknowledged it (10/2012 and 2/2013 in these forums).
Anet has not said how they will fix it, if they they will fix it, or when they will fix it.

Frustrating…
But I have some tiny hope that if we make enough noise Anet will take some action. Because this is a real issue for many professions/builds, it hurts build diversity, and hurts the game.

Ulari

Dual.8953:

Leamas.5803:

DanteZero.9736:

In terms of caps for conditions, it was explained that it’s a limitation of the technology since each stack of a condition has intensity or duration constantly updating for each and every single player.

That’s a cop-out. With today’s processing power there’s no reason for this to exist. There was lots of speculation around the 250 item stack limit in the bank too, and the staunch insisted it was a programmatic limitation, even against all the evidence that it was not. Now you can buy bank stack expansions in the gem store. The 250 is simply an arbitrary number which is exactly the same as the 25 for the condition stack…arbitrary. It’s not like it’s complex math, in fact, I would argue the cap complicates the process because they need some sort of algorithm to determine which conditions to apply and which to ignore, rather than just applying them and letting them time out. If they are at the limitation of their hardware and simply cannot increase the condition stack then all damage needs to be reworked because condition damage is broken in PvE.

It is a technical limitation because Condition Damage is a stat. If all condi damage didn’t scale with stats, they could make the limit way higher but as it stands the system would have to calculate every condition on a target, and the condi stat of it’s caster every second. In a fight like a world boss where they always have max conditions on the boss that would create a massive delay in whatever function dictates damage.

If the argument is ‘the engine can not handle conditions from multiple players’ then there are several possible conclusions:
1. The engine is broken
2. The condition mechanic is badly designed
3. Condition specs should not be in the game (since the engine can not handle them)

But…
This is an MMO (many players)
It is group friendly (no tagging/claiming mobs)
It has huge world events and boss fights
Every class can generate conditions and many classes ‘lean’ towards condition builds

It appears the devs intended there to be condition focused characters.
And it appears the devs intended people to play together and attack the same mobs/bosses

And the devs have said that condition damage is a problem they are looking into (in October 2012 and February 2013).

Given the above facts/observations/conclusions… I still say They need to fix it

Ulari

STRanger.5120:

Ulari.9547:

It is not a balance issue.
There is no balance reason for condition damage to go down in a group while direct damage does not.

If two players can each do 1,000 DPS … there is no balance reason why one player gets to do only 10% of his damage when attacking a mob that 10 other people are attacking and the other player still does full damage in the same situation. That is just dumb. But that is what the condition cap does.

Ulari

Balance issue:

Berzerker = high dmg, but fragile character
Rabid/Dire/Carrion = high cond. dmg, but much survivable than zerker.

Here you go

I won’t argue weather condition damage is better than direct damage…
I will argue that having a the condition stack limit on the target is stupid.

Five condition characters should do 5x the damage of one condition character.
Just like five berserkers do 5x the damage of one berserker.

If a condition damage character is ‘better’ than a direct damage character… of course it should be balanced. But making every condition build worthless in world events and ‘bad’ when grouped with other condition builds is not the way to balance it. And Anet knows this… they have acknowledged in these forums that the condition cap is an issue. My frustration (and others) is that it has been more than a year since this issue was acknowledged and there has been no fix, no planned fix, no discussion of what the fix would be…

And it is important to fix this.
Having condition damage inferior to direct damage in group settings (in an MMO) hurts build diversity and hurts the game.

Ulari

Leamas.5803:

Aeonblade.8709:

Phy.2913:

Ulari.9547:

And if it is a technical issue… Blizzard, with their glacial development pace, was able to solve the issue in their ancient WoW engine back in 2008.

Sad!

Ulari <— disappointed

It took them 4 years to do it.

While true, that doesn’t mean it has to take 4 years for every other game too

…ANet has no excuse for not addressing a problem that Blizzard solved on comparatively ancient hardware years ago.

Correct! And if it is an unsolvable problem, the the game should not offer condition damage specs. But the game is advertised as play your way, pick your talents, choose your weapons, choose your skills… and there are many, many choices focused on condition damage. And they work (sort of) when you are soloing but are worthless (literally worthless) when you are in a group.

And remember… Anet has acknowledged that this is an issue (condition caps) for more than a year!!! But they are unable or unwilling to do anything about it!

Ulari

It is not a balance issue.
There is no balance reason for condition damage to go down in a group while direct damage does not.

If two players can each do 1,000 DPS … there is no balance reason why one player gets to do only 10% of his damage when attacking a mob that 10 other people are attacking and the other player still does full damage in the same situation. That is just dumb. But that is what the condition cap does.

Ulari

Huge flaw in the game that has been known and acknowledged since October 2012 (14 months ago!!!!)

John Peters in October (2012): “Condition damage is an issue we are looking into.”
John Peters in February (2013): “Condition damage is an issue we are looking into.”
Original Posts:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/suggestions/No-love-for-condition-builds/page/2#
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Comfirmed-Nothing-being-done-re-conditions/page/4

It is not ‘hard to balance’.

If one Direct damage character can sustain 1500 DPS for a ‘boss’ fight.
And one Condition damage character can sustain 1500 dps for a ‘boss’ fight
Then 10 of either characters should be able to sustain 15,000 DPS for the ‘boss’ fight.

There is no balance reason that conditions are capped and direct damage is not.

And if it is a technical issue… Blizzard, with their glacial development pace, was able to solve the issue in their ancient WoW engine back in 2008.

Sad!

Ulari <— disappointed

spoj.9672:

Theres no easy solution for bleed cap on world bosses. But the only place its an issue is on world bosses with a huge zerg. Something should be done but they have said removing the cap is not an option due to limitations. Which is why im suggesting alternatives that dont inbalance conditions in other areas but also help reduce the issue on world bosses.

Understood.
But I am trying to point out that your proposed solution of keeping the cap and prioritizing who gets stacks is not a ‘good enough’ solution.

I keep coming back to:
—This is an MMO with very friendly grouping and group content.
—And the game encourages many condition builds
—And the game does not support those condition builds in groups
—And ArenaNet has acknowledged that his is a problem (going back to October 2012).
—And WoW solved this in 2008!!!

I realize my frustration is showing… but I feel that we the players need to tell ArenaNet what we see as the problem and let them figure out how to fix it. And I do not want to endorse only easy solutions…

Ulari

spoj.9672:

…Bleed cap is fine so long as they change it so high condi damage stacks take priority.

I disagree.

In your solution…
If I play a Necro with ~1300 condition damage and I am in a world event or a dungeon with two other Necros who have 1301 condition damage… I will do literally <20% of the bleed damage I would do when solo. I may do no damage from bleeding if the other two Necros can each maintain 13 stacks. My character is invalidated because there are already two other condition characters in the group who have a better condition damage stat than me? That is not acceptable.

Again, if this applied to direct damage it would be easy to see how silly this is:
Imagine if bosses were capped at losing no more than 5,000 hit points every second. So a Warrior hits the boss with hundred blades and a ranger hits it with a long bow auto attack…. At the same moment, your thief hits the boss with a back stab and does no damage because the cap has been filled by the warrior and the ranger!!! That is not acceptable… but it is the situation with condition damage right now.

Ulari

If a boss is immune to CC and my Terrormancer can not damage it with fear… that is fine. It is true when I am solo and it is true when I am in group. It is a decision the devs made when they built the boss or when they made the damage fear inflicts part of the CC that the boss is immune to.

Personally, I would like some variety on bosses… so that some have insane armor so conditions are better than direct damage, and some cleanse so that conditions are worse, etc. But this is a pipe dream at the moment, because…

Until several condition characters in a group can all apply their conditions to the boss, the above conversation is meaningless.

The condition cap must be fixed for the basic damaging conditions: bleeding, burning, torment, confusion, poison (the damage portion).

Ulari

Ghostextechnica.3270:

… the damage-based conditions really need to stack so everyone can at the very least do 100% of the damage they can do when soloing.

This!

If I can do 1,000 (or 10,000) DPS with conditions when solo, I should also be able to do 1,000 (or 10,000) DPS in a group.

This is not broken, it is not OP… it is the exact same as…

If I can do 1,000 (or 10,000) DPS with direct damage when solo, I should also be able to do 1,000 (or 10,000) DPS in a group.

Vulnerability stacking to 25 on the target is fine.
Characters not being able to place damaging conditions on the target is not fine.

Ulari

spoj.9672:

Yes the immunities are issues but the cap isnt an issue. You shouldnt be taking 2 or more condi specced players. Its just like in any other mmo, you dont take more tanks/healers than you need, it would be counter productive. If condi damage was higher it wouldnt create a new imbalance, it would simply shift the organised groups into building differently for different dungeons. Dungeons with lots of condi immunity would remain zerker only, others would take a condi spec. Theres nothing wrong with having some dungeons/encounters being anti condition. Surely you can agree a meta with 1 condi and 4 zerkers is better than 5 zerkers?

I do not agree.
In your example it is ok to have four Berserkers doing direct damage.
Why can we not have four condition characters?

Imagine the outrage (justifiable) if a target got a ‘direct damage shield’ buff every time it took a certain amount of direct DPS…. and and all direct damage characters did 30% or less damage until the buff wore off. That is what is currently happening with condition characters in PVE (and in WvW and PvP if we start talking about burning and the damage component of poison).

The game has as many classes and builds for condition as direct damage.
The condition stack limit on the target hurts build and group diversity.

Other MMOs do not have this issue… and ArenaNet has acknowledged this is an issue in forum posts going back to October 2012.

It really must be fixed.

Ulari

18,000+ views for this thread and no response from ANet.
The jokes that that they will still be looking into condition damage in 2017 are starting to feel less like jokes.

I and many others called out condition damage as something that needs to be addressed in the Collaborative Development topic.
Many other people called out Class Balance… and I maintain that the condition damage system must be fixed before classes can be balanced. Otherwise we will all have to endure the very real risk that professions are balanced, and then the condition system is changed, and the change breaks the balance. Seems so simple that the systems must be finalized before you build on them.

More than a year waiting for Anet to address the condition issues (yes, they acknowledged there were issues back in October 2012).

Ulari <— Frustrated

Still waiting on a fix, or a proposed fix, or a plan to address condition damage/stacking.
I mean it has been literally over a year!!!

John Peters in October (2012): “Condition damage is an issue we are looking into.”
John Peters in February (2013): “Condition damage is an issue we are looking into.”
Original Posts:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/suggestions/No-love-for-condition-builds/page/2#
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Comfirmed-Nothing-being-done-re-conditions/page/4

Ulari

Lopez.7369:

ZudetGambeous.9573:

Not only was the toxin condition a disappointment, but Anet went the extra mile to screw us over once again.

They added the downed state to PvE mobs now. This is another slap in the face to condition users since now PvE enemies are cleansed of ALL conditions upon being downed, which means direct damage is capable of killing these enemies faster. To make it worse, if enemies recover they are AGAIN cleansed of all conditions.

That’s a good point.

With all the talk about balance recently, it seems this issue isn’t even on ArenaNet’s radar anymore.

And… how can they possibly balance professions when every condition build has issues playing in a group?

They should fix condition damage stacking then balance.
If they balance first, then fix condition stacking… any balance they implemented could very easily be ‘wrong’ since their fix for conditions is probably going to be a significant change.

Ulari

Lopez.7369:

Ulari.9547:

Lopez.7369:

On the bright side, Chris Whiteside said in another thread that he’ll give a response about condition builds in PvE. I hope that happens soon.

Condition damage is an issue in PvE, WvW, and PvP since two characters can easily hit the cap in in any environment (for bleeds and also for burning). Designing a solution that only affects one environment (PvE) is not what we want/need.

I would like to imagine that PvP teams could field two or three condition characters to burst down high toughness targets. It may not be ‘the best’, but it would be a build option. Right now the condition cap make this idea impossible/stupid.

Ulari

As a top 100 PvP player, I can confidently say that you are wrong. Unlike PvE, players in PvP and world vs. world have so much condition cleansing that one, two, three or even four players can’t maintain 25 stacks of bleeding. That’s why raising the bleed cap would have absolutely no effect outside of PvE.

Fair enough. I am not a top 100 PvP player, so I can easily agree with your comment on not being able to hit 25 stacks of bleeding in PvP. But, I do play WvW and I do see targets with 25 stacks of bleeding on them (or more commonly, one stack of burning <g>).

Even agreeing with you… I’d prefer to see the ‘fix’ for condition damage applied to PvE, WvW, and PvP. Better to have the same basic rule set in place in all three environments.

And based on your comments… if the fix was something that allowed players to always fit their condition damage on a target (pretend the cap applies per attacker rather than target), there would be no effect in PvP, it would greatly help PvE, and may or may not affect WvW.

Ulari

Dawdler.8521:

So you are saying that 5 bleed stacks will do about 3000 damage per second per player stacking it?

Sounds fun. Not OP at all. If you face 5 condition builds you only gonna have 15000 dps on you. Guardians heal that in like a second.

Nope not overpowered at all. It is no worse than direct damage.
If a direct damage build can put out 3000 DPS, then five of them on the same target can put out 15,000 DPS. Seems standard and correct… One on five you lose. Right now conditions are worthless in groups because they do not stack like this.

But I do not believe this rumor… any reference to a dev post?

Ulari

PvE:
Condition damage Cap (making condition builds viable)

WvW:
Condition damage Cap (making condition builds viable)

PvP:
Condition damage Cap (making multiple condition builds viable in a group)

I would prefer to see the condition cap discussed/solved before Class Balance is the focus. If the condition system needs to be overhauled to address the issue, it seems counter productive to balance and then change a core mechanic and have to balance again.

Ulari

Lopez.7369:

On the bright side, Chris Whiteside said in another thread that he’ll give a response about condition builds in PvE. I hope that happens soon.

Condition damage is an issue in PvE, WvW, and PvP since two characters can easily hit the cap in in any environment (for bleeds and also for burning). Designing a solution that only affects one environment (PvE) is not what we want/need.

I would like to imagine that PvP teams could field two or three condition characters to burst down high toughness targets. It may not be ‘the best’, but it would be a build option. Right now the condition cap make this idea impossible/stupid.

Ulari

In answer to the OP’s question, it has to be answer 1 or 2.
A-Net has acknowledged condition stacking in an issue on these forums:

John Peters in October (2012): “Condition damage is an issue we are looking into.”
John Peters in February (2013): “Condition damage is an issue we are looking into.”
Original Posts:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/suggestions/No-love-for-condition-builds/page/2#
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Comfirmed-Nothing-being-done-re-conditions/page/4

But it has been a year since this was first acknowledged and in my frustration I am leaning towards answer number 1… they do not know how to fix it and they are hoping it goes away.

Ulari

nopoet.2960:

I keep seeing these threads. Be careful what you ask for because part of the solution, as I see it, is to give bosses access to condition removal.

That’s fine. I do not want Condition damage to be ‘better’ than Direct damage.
The amount of damage Conditions do can be different than Direct damage
The time it takes to do damage can be different
The way it is mitigated can be different

I have no problem with some fights favoring Condition damage (mobs with high toughness)… and some fights favoring Direct damage (mobs with condition removal). I think that would be awesome, good for build diversity, and good for the game.

But…
If one Direct damage character can sustain 1500 DPS for a ‘boss’ fight.
And one Condition damage character can sustain 1500 dps for a ‘boss’ fight
Then 10 of either characters should be able to sustain 15,000 DPS for the ‘boss’ fight.
Currently this is true only for Direct damage characters.

Ulari

And here is ANet’s acknowledgement that this is an issue they are looking into:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/suggestions/No-love-for-condition-builds/page/2#
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Comfirmed-Nothing-being-done-re-conditions/page/4

Note that these posts are from October 2012 and February 2013.

John Peters in October (2012): “Condition damage is an issue we are looking into.”
John Peters in February (2013): “Condition damage is an issue we are looking into.”

Sorry if my frustration is showing, but this has been an issue for a full year now… and I have seen no discussion from ANet on how/when they will address it.

Ulari

Raine.1394:

The answer is not to rework the cap—in any way. Every game that has tried something similar has abandoned it (cf. WoW). The answer is simple. All damage, whether direct or over time, needs to be managed by player. Anet has played the technical limitations card. They have been reminded that other games do this as a matter of course. They have acknowledged the problem and said they are working on it. They simply need to fix an issue that has already been fixed by other games.

Correct!

I said it this way in another condition damage thread:

There is no ‘balance reason’ for conditions to be capped on the target
A limit to the condition stacks a single character can apply is fine and necessary for balance. But, a limit to the number of conditions a target can have from multiple attackers is not ok.

From a balance perspective:
If it is ok for one character to stack 15 stacks of bleeding (or 1 stack of burning)…
Then it is ok for 100 characters to stack 1,500 stacks of bleeding (or 100 stacks of burning).
It is the exact same as…
If one character can hit 1,000 DPS of direct damage
Then it is ok for 100 characters to hit 100,000 DPS of direct damage.

There may be technical reasons why the stacks of conditions are capped on the target, but that is what we want the developers to fix/address, and A-net has acknowledged since October 2012 that this is an issue.

In WoW
Way back in 2006 or so… Warlocks had to coordinate which warlock applied which DoT to the mob because the mob would not hold more then one of each DoT.

Also back in the dark ages of 2007 or so… WoW only allowed 12 negative conditions on a mob. So Warlocks (as the primary DoT class) were screwed.

WoW fixed this in 2008!!

Guild Wars encourages build diversity.
Guild Wars allows every profession to apply DoTs.
Guild Wars points certain professions towards DoT focused builds.
Guild Wars is an MMO (and encourages multi-player much better than previous MMOs).
Guild Wars punishes characters relying on their DoTs when they play with other people!!

Ulari

GrandmaFunk.3052:

“I don’t do as much damage as zerker dps machines” is not the same thing as “being useless”, nor are conditions strictly about damage.

Agreed.

I have no problem if the design of the game dictates that condition damage focused characters should do 80% of what a berserker warrior could do… nor do I have any problem if a the game dictates that a condition character should do 130% of the damage of a berserker warrior if nobody clears the applied conditions.

My issue is that a condition character may be fine solo, but is worthless in a group.

What I am trying to get across is a character who relies on conditions to do damage is kittened if any other characters are attacking the same target because they are now competing for stacks.

Ulari

There is no ‘balance reason’ for conditions to be capped on the target

A limit to the condition stacks a single character can apply is fine and necessary for balance. But, a limit to the number of conditions a target can have from multiple attackers is not ok.

From a balance perspective:
If it is ok for one character to stack 15 stacks of bleeding (or 1 stack of burning)…
Then it is ok for 100 characters to stack 1,500 stacks of bleeding (or 100 stacks of burning).
It is the exact same as…
If one character can hit 1,000 DPS of direct damage
Then it is ok for 100 characters to hit 100,000 DPS of direct damage.

There may be technical reasons why the stacks of conditions are capped on the target, but that is what we want the developers to fix/address, and A-net has acknowledged since October 2012 that this is an issue.

Conditions being useless in group settings (in a multi-player game) hurts build diversity… and hurts the game.

Ulari

And what I (and others) want addressed is…

I want my condition character to do the same damage in a group that I do when I am solo.
It is stupid that I do less damage if there are more people fighting.
Direct damage dealers can count on always doing the same damage no matter how many people are attacking their target.

Ulari

Earlier this week, I posted in another thread on the topic of conditions…
And I still feel the need to share the history.

I and others have posted on the condition cap issue for more than a year (you can review my posts if you want <g>).

A-Net has acknowledged it is an issue:
John Peters in October (2012): “Condition damage is an issue we are looking into.”
John Peters in February (2013): “Condition damage is an issue we are looking into.”

Original Posts:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/suggestions/No-love-for-condition-builds/page/2#
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Comfirmed-Nothing-being-done-re-conditions/page/4

It is SO frustrating that this has not been addressed.

Ulari

I feel the need to share the history…

I and others have posted on the condition cap issue for more than a year (you can review my posts if you want <g>).

A-Net has acknowledged it is an issue:
John Peters in October (2012): Condition damage is an issue we are looking into.
John Peters in February (2013): Condition damage is an issue we are looking into.

Original Posts:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/suggestions/No-love-for-condition-builds/page/2#
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Comfirmed-Nothing-being-done-re-conditions/page/4

It is SO frustrating that this has not been addressed.

I want my condition damage character to deal the same damage in a group combat (world event, PVP, dungeon, or WvWvW) that they deal when playing solo.

The condition cap ensures that if more than one condition damage character is attacking the same target, all characters see the amount of damage they do from conditions go down (because some characters conditions will not fit under the stack limit).

This has been an issue since beta. Jon Peters has twice acknowledged on these forums that it is an issue:
— --————————————————
John Peters in October: Condition damage is an issue we are looking into.
John Peters in February: Condition damage is an issue we are looking into.
Original Posts:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/suggestions/No-love-for-condition-builds/page/2#
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Comfirmed-Nothing-being-done-re-conditions/page/4
— —-———————————————————————-

Nothing has been done, no plan has been announced, no timetable has been hinted at.
Nearly 11 months since launch and 1/2 of all builds have issues in group combat. Really?!?!

Sorry for the rage, but this is a core issue that affects many professions and builds, reduces build diversity, and hurts the game (assuming you like building characters within the rule set the developers have provided).

Ulari

Dasorine.1964:

…then they added a flaring skirt …

Just like the majority of the armor in the game.

Ulari <— could not resist

John Peters in October: Condition damage is an issue we are looking into.
John Peters in February: Condition damage is an issue we are looking into.

Original Posts:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/suggestions/No-love-for-condition-builds/page/2#
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Comfirmed-Nothing-being-done-re-conditions/page/4

Nothing has been done, no plan has been announced, no timetable has been hinted at.
Nearly 8 months since launch and 1/2 of all builds have issues in group combat. Really?!?!

Hard to believe anyone in a position of responsibility is listening.

Ulari

My preferences in order.
1. Address core issues (condition damage, bleed stacks!!!, others…).
2. Fix bugs.
3. Balance professions.
4. quality of life improvements (guild management, LFG, others…)
5. new content

If A-Net’s teams are weighted towards content instead of improvements/fixes, then reorganize or hire more people. More then half a year into the game and half of all builds having acknowledged issues (condition damage in group play) is awful. Just awful.

Ulari

Agrios.1957:

The bleeding cap, as well other caps are there for a reason: PvP balance.

I am sorry but this is wrong.

Imagine a condition damage character can maintain 15 stacks of bleeding, and assume that the DPS is similar to a character built for direct damage.

Put two of the direct damage characters in a PvP match. They both attack the same target, they both do their full damage, and the target dies twice as fast. Add a third direct damage character and the target dies in 1/3 the time.

Now put two of the condition damage characters in a PvP match. They both attack the same target, one does full damage and the other cannot stack all his bleeds and does less damage. The target does not die twice as fast. Add a third condition damage character attacking the same target and it becomes laughable.

This is true in the game right now.. in PvP, WvWvW, and PvE.

Ulari

This issue has been discussed since beta.
John Peters acknowledged it was an issue and they were looking for solutions in October.
John Peters acknowledged it was an issue and they were looking for solutions in February.
But… we still have no update on what will be done to fix it, or when it may be fixed.

I am frustrated… I have seen the build diversity go down as folks realize the only way to guarantee your damage is to go direct damage.

And, simply raising the cap cannot be the answer. As a Warrior, or a Neco, or a Mesmer I can hit 25 stacks of bleeding on a training golem before it dies. I do not want ANet to raise the bleed cap and have to re-balance bleeding when Mesmers, Warriors, Necros, etc. can get more than 25 stacks of bleeding on a boss or a champion.

Whatever the solution is, it should ensure that I do the same condition damage when I am in a group as I do when I am solo.

Until then condition damage is dead… unless you are playing this MMO in really small organized groups with only one condition focused character… or you are playing by yourself.

Ulari

The post below has Jon Peter’s acknowledgement that this is an issue…
From the official forums five months ago!!!

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/suggestions/No-love-for-condition-builds/page/2#

JonPeters.5630:

Might as well chime in and say big crowd events where condies are stack capped is also a problem we are investigating.

Jon

Players told them it was broken in beta… and in October… and in December…
Again and again.
They agreed it was an issue in October.
And now they say they can not fix it and are not looking at it?!?!?!

Ulari

digiowl.9620:

Ulari.9547:

Otaur.9268:

According to another thread a long winded answer by Anet came down to 1 thing… Bandwidth

Can you link to the ArenaNet post?

https://twitter.com/DragonSeasonCom/status/304252471147122689

So condition builds in this game are just for solo play… really?
And they have no plans to address this?
Pardon the hysterics.. but WHY THE FACE!!! (you know what I mean)

I love the class building in this game, or at least I did when I believed there were options. Now half of the possible options are off the table if you plan to play this game with other people… it’s an MMO right?!?!?!

Wow. Just wow.

Ulari

Otaur.9268:

According to another thread a long winded answer by Anet came down to 1 thing… Bandwidth

Can you link to the ArenaNet post?

I have been questioning the bleed stack limit for more than 5 months, and the only A-Net response I have seen is ’It’s a problem’ from Jon Peters.

Basic Issue:
Five direct damage characters do full damage to a target.
Five condition damage characters don’t… they can’t fit all their bleeds on the target.

Previous Posts Discussing This:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/suggestions/Bleed-Stack-Plan/first
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Why-does-bleeding-stack-to-only-25/first

Jon Peters’ quote:
JonPeters.5630:
Might as well chime in and say big crowd events where condies are stack capped is also a problem we are investigating.
Jon

Ulari

Tommyknocker.6089:

Judging by past class balances, not likely.

How bout adding a few more programmers beyond the two you have so your “core” game doesn’t become “warriors and mesmer wars” 2.

The game also has Thieves in WvWvW.

Seriously,
How can class balance be a focus when core class mechanics are broken?
Or is it intentional that a bleed-focused build does full damage when soloing and close to no damage when in a group and attacking a Champion, an Event Boss, a Dungeon Mob, or a PvP Opponent?

Ulari

Any hope for addressing the bleed stack issue?

Five direct damage characters do full damage to a target.
Five condition damage characters don’t… they can’t fit all their bleeds on the target.

This has been discussed over and over in the forums. The only ArenaNet response was from Jon Peters agreeing it was an issue… more than four months ago!!!

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/suggestions/Bleed-Stack-Plan/first
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Why-does-bleeding-stack-to-only-25/first

This affects Necros, Sword Warriors, Staff Mesmers, Engineers, Short Bow Rangers, Dual Dagger Thieves, etc, etc, etc… too many to list.

How can you balance classes when a core mechanic of close to 1/2 of the available builds is acknowledged to be an issue?

Anything? anything at all?

Ulari

Signed.

I’ve seen enough butt-capes and hoop skirts.

Adding armor variety cannot be bad.

And please don’t drag out the argument that ‘more form fitting armor would not be effective armor in real life’. My Necro’s current armor looks like a Mardi Gras costume (with a hoop skirt) which would not qualify as armor in real life. This is a fantasy game and if you like your magic armor to look like a prom dress that’s fine… I don’t want my magic armor to have a butt-cape.

Ulari

Agreed.
Completely agreed.

Ulari

We had a large game update last week, and still no mention from ArenaNet about condition damage:

The issue:
Direct damage dealers do their full damage to a target no matter how many players damage the target.
Condition damage dealers do less damage to a target if other players apply conditions due to the conditions (bleed and burn especially) being capped for the target.

Condition damage specs are less useful where multiple players are cooperating (world events, PvP, dungeons) and this is hurting build diversity… Why play a build that does less damage when other people are around? Just roll a direct damage build instead.

The best suggestion I have seen to fix this is to make the condition cap a limit on the conditions an attacker may apply, rather then a cap on the conditions a target can receive. Condition damage for a character would not be increased or ‘broken’, and a condition damage build could be confident that they would contribute their full damage in a group (just like direct damage does now).

This issue was acknowledged by ArenaNet months ago.

Any hope of this being addressed?

Ulari

Any update on this?

I read through the forums but I see no recent posts on condition damage or bleed stacks?

It has been four months since ArenaNet (Jon Peters) acknowledged that the 25 stack limit on bleeds was an issue in group environments (dungeons, PvP, and events).

Ulari

Pinch
I do not think PvP needs the bleed cap to maintain balance.

If a direct damage character can do 8,000 damage in 5 seconds, the game allows 5 direct damage characters to do 40,000 damage in five seconds.

But for conditions… if a character can apply and maintain 15 stacks of bleeding, subsequent characters cannot also apply 15 stacks of bleeding on the target. Only the first character gets to do his full damage, the second character gets to apply 2/3 (the 10 remaining available stacks), and the next three characters can apply no bleeding…

Imagine if when a target took ‘too much’ direct damage they got a damage shield to protect them form any more damage for the next few seconds. It would be infuriating to have your damage not count because someone else attacked the target just before you. That is where condition damage is now… it is easiest to see in events, but it is also happening in dungeons, and in PvP.

Ulari

I am glad you posted your concern/observation (no sarcasm). The more people bring up this issue the more likely it will be addressed!

I started a discussion on this in the Suggestions forum a week or so ago (49 replies so far).

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/suggestions/Bleed-Stack-Plan/first#post1159356

I also participated in a conversation about this more than three months ago in which Jon Peters agreed that this was an issue.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/suggestions/No-love-for-condition-builds/page/2#post621056

Keep up the discussion in the hopes that the development team responds to us.

Ulari

I have seen other posts questioning the logic behind the bleed stack cap (all condition caps basically). There seems to be an overwhelming majority of forum posters who agree that there is an issue.

The rough consensus seems to be that conditions should be limited… but they should be limited for each character applying them rather than a global limit on the target. This allows each character to do the same damage when grouped that they do solo, but a character’s condition damage would not be increased (because each character would still have their current limit on conditions).

I still suggest that the ArenaNet team could make a lot of people happy by announcing how they plan to address condition damage. It has been nearly 4 months since this was acknowledged as an issue, and it has been discussed on the forums since the betas…

Ulari

Kethraveris.6053:

I’ve been wondering the same thing, I head months ago that they were talking of “fixing” the issues with condition damage. I LOVE my epidemic necro, unfortunately between the fact that my normal group consisted of 2 other bleed based toons and the fact that I couldn’t beat up a box/wall/etc to save my life I ended up switching mains. Very depressing

And that is exactly what I am hoping the ArenaNet crew will see. People abandoning enjoyable classes is not healthy for the game… and is very frustrating for the users.

Sharing the plan/schedule for fixing this with the community would be a very good thing.

Ulari

Good conversation… many branches.

But what I was really intending in this thread was to highlight:
— A character’s condition damage is reduced as other characters apply conditions.
— Direct damage does not suffer from this.
— ArenaNet acknowledged this as an issue three months ago
— I and others have shifted away from condition builds (reducing build diversity)

My suggestion is that ArenaNet should share with us how and when they will address this, to keep players from focusing on direct damage builds in challenging PvE or PvP environments.

Ulari