Guild Wars 2

Laika.8795:

Ok, I’m using my phone and tired so I’m sure I read too deeply into the stacking aspect of the sentence. All good, 100% approve.

Columba is probably on his way to the laundromat to clean his pants.

If you can still stack stealth some people will just keep complaining about permastealth highest dps highest mobility godmode OMGWTFBBQ.

Xsorus.2507:

No more cheese stealth over and over again till full health.

Yeah, they pretty much nerfed your troll spec, didn’t they?

tluv.5821:

My only issue on stealth is the fact that when they are hit is AoE or marks they are still stealthed. I personally think, and I’ve constantly preached this, that if you get hit, especially with cripple or bleed, you should immediately come out of stealth and be unable to get into stealth ‘till the conditions go away. That’s it. Otherwise, stealthing is fine.

Yeah, that’s it. Just make it so that thieves are even less useful in large scale combat.

Sebrent.3625:

Except he did say those things, magicthighs … which makes it not a Straw man argument.

oZii.2864:

A thief is squishy because its squishy. I can roll p/d in full carrion but I am still squishy. Just because I have 20k hp doesn’t mean I am not squishy. If you roll p/d full apothecary your not as squishy you just have like 12khp and dont do alot with your condition damage but you heal good. Then your basically a troll build.

Just roll sword/pistol and pistol/pistol or shortbow and take no stealth abilities all knights gear. See how well that plays out for you. Can you do it yes but you pretty much became a warrior with crappy damage who has to go sit in the back when your cooldowns arent up.

A thief is squishy because they are wearing squishy gear … works the same for all classes (imagine that!).

You can do very good damage wearing all Knight’s gear (several people out there do this with several classes, including Thief).

He claims otherwise. Since there is evidence in several videos out there that contradicts his claims, his claims are fallacy.

Since he did make those claims, this isn’t a straw man argument.

Nice try but failed execution.

oZii.2864 didn’t say those things at all. Here’s what you claim he said:

Sebrent.3625:

(1) A thief can’t be tanky & (2) You can’t do damage in knight’s gear

Nowhere in the bit you quoted does oZii make those claims.

Sebrent.3625:

I’ll stick with the fact that your arguments that [(1) A thief can’t be tanky & (2) You can’t do damage in knight’s gear] were another fallacy.

That’s funny. Straw man arguments are a fallacy too.

DanH.5879:

for all the PRO ppl out there, can they explain what use my condi build thief do if CD’s are introduced ? how i can spam my only condition skill LDB ???

You can always spam your SB blast finisher in a combo field… oh, wait :\

Acelerion.6820:

Balance on the small scale can imply some reasonable balance on the large scale so I’d start there.

The problem is, the thieves you and other people appear to be complaining about are ineffective in large scale combat. So again, what do we balance for?

The problem is that wvw gets leftover changes from spvp and no specific attention at all. This is the biggest problem.

Sure, WvW is considered pve by Anet. You can’t just switch to considering it PvP, though, without actually implementing PvP gear limitations.

I’m not saying thieves shouldn’t be able to drop fights. I’m saying the balance of the class has to take these things into consideration and not just blow it off because a net said it was intended.

But how do you “balance” for someone leaving a fight?

If a net said thieves were supposed to have the highest damage, highest defense, and best utility and mobility it would be obviously unbalanced despite being intended. That’s the only point I’m trying to make.

I understand what you’re saying. What I’m saying is that these “should” statements make no sense when it’s anet who decides what should and shouldn’t be. If they deem that thieves should be able to get away from a fight then that’s part of their definition of the thief class. Obviously they didn’t think it would be unbalanced, and neither do I. [edit]Because the only time that’s actually an issue is if you either continue to pursue the troll spec thief, or you’re soloing and continue with your business as if he’s gone.[/edit]

The actual “should” statements that are relevant here is the idea that you “should” be able to set the terms on a fight when engaging a thief, and that you “should” be able to kill them when you’ve got them cornered. Sorry, they’re thieves. They’re slippery. Like Anet says.

Zentoji.8654:

I think the topic title says it all, I just want to find out what typeface is used on these community forums.

According to the css file they use Eason Pro and Cronos Pro .

If you right click the page and click “view source” or a similar option and search for “css” you can usually find what you’re looking for

/HTH

Edit: Khisath already answered I see. That’ll teach me to refresh the page first :P

Acelerion.6820:

I absolutely agree. The “wvw is supposed to be unbalanced” crap is a cop out and every effort should be made to balance things in that specific environment.

Balance for what? Large scale fights? Solo roaming? Small groups? Troll specs?

My point is that working as intended != balance and you can’t use one to imply the other.

You can use Anet’s intent for the classes to counter any “class X shouldn’t be able to do Y” statement, which is how I interpreted your “well he’ll just run away” remark.
If I interpreted it incorrectly I’d appreciate if you explained what you did mean by it.

Edit: cleared up some vague language

Acelerion.6820:

D/d s/d d/p p/d and short bow are all more than viable in wvw anyway.

Who said they weren’t viable? You said a thief weapon set is viable if it has one great skill. I pointed out that certain weapon skills are pretty much useless for certain builds.
This, combined with the fact that thieves don’t have that many weapons (or viable builds for that matter) to choose from, means that thieves sometimes have to go for a certain weapon set, even though many of the weapon skills are going to be of little use to them.
A great example of that is “the” d/d condition build.

And saying a net intended something isn’t a good argument for balance one way or another.

It’s a great argument against people demanding nerfs as if somehow thieves getting away and resetting a fight isn’t intended. Anet quite clearly intended thieves to be slippery.

Ironvos.9014:

Offcourse some problems could be solved by just giving the thief normal cooldown skills like every other class instead of current initiative system. No more spamming buttons at all anymore.

Yes, because other classes (like, say, elementalists) can’t spam skills at all, right?

As it currently stands, a thief weaponset is good if it has one great skill.
For other classes you have a bad weaponset when it has one bad skill.

Actually, because of the limited number of weapons thieves can choose from, combined with the very limited number of viable builds which in turn emphasise completely different stats (power vs. condition damage for instance), some weapon skills are sometimes almost completely useless for certain builds. Take a look at main hand pistol or dual daggers for instance.

Other classes can already be glad if half their weaponskills are appropriate to the situation they are in.

Most other classes have more weapons to choose from. Thieves can choose sword, dagger, pistol and shortbow. That’s it. Other classes that are that limited or more (engineers and elementalists) have other mechanics that provide more diversity, their tool belts/weapon kits and attunements.

A thief however can blow all his initiative on the most appropriate skills in every situation every time.

And sometimes “most appropriate” is “not appropriate at all”.

And if that still fails, well he’ll just run away.

As intended by Anet.

Sebrent.3625:

I didn’t say he killed him, i said he was killing him.

You mean to say he was damaging the mesmer, and had them down to low health. Sure.

As I said in the ehmry forum, I could make a video like that that “proves” that warrior bull charge + frenzy + hundred blades “is not good” by running around and doing it to the tanky guy in a group of enemies and then dying to the group of enemies. That is what this video showed.

So that mesmer was the tanky guy in a group of enemies?

Do heartseeker spam to people running offensive stats, not Knight’s, Soldier’s, etc.

How are you supposed to find out who’s “tanky” without attacking them/seeing them take damage?

<edit>Whoops, that’s a mesmer. I didn’t zoom in so the icon looked like some spectral thing to me.

I thought the clones, shatters, confusions and all the pink stuff on the screen pretty much gave that away.

Sebrent.3625:

If you do it and target tanky people in the middle of a group, yes. You’re ignoring the fact that he hit 2 2 and killed the ele

You mean the upleveled ele that was already at half health because they were being followed by half an enemy zerg? And he didn’t kill them, he downed them. The zerg finished them off.

and was killing that necromancer easily until its group rolled him

He killed the necro? Where?

The rest of that video he just does it on a tanky target in the middle of that target’s group and dies. Of course that’s going to happen.

How are you going to prevent that hitting tanky targets if all you do is spam heartseeker, though? You’d only find out for sure if they were tanky or not after first hitting them.

Sebrent.3625:

Lol, teg, quite right.
Here’s a video of Cynical (oZii.2864) on his thief (Sintact) as recorded by someone on another server.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ArWxfaeeYu4

Anyone else have a video of a single non-thief harassing a group like this while staying in range and then taking a few down? No? I wonder why that is.

Heck, people’s advice is to CC the thief. That’s a bloody hammer warrior.

Do please note how he is actually playing like he has a brain in this video as opposed to the one he made to “prove” that heartseeker spam is “nothing”.

That might be because spamming heartseeker is assinine and tends to get you killed. Just like in the video oZii made.

Sebrent.3625:

I simply wish more people maining as Thief would be as honest about it as I am about Mesmer in the water

Accusing people you don’t agree with of being dishonest is supposed to achieve what exactly?

Runiir.6425:

Look, stealth is not magic

Actually, in GW2 stealth is magic, Denial magic to be precise, the same type mesmers use (which is why they can also stealth and teleport).

EvilSardine.9635:

magicthighs.5372:

How on earth does this mean the revealed debuff is not working in wvw? What you’re describing is culling (which, again, I only see in large battles, not small skirmishes) and has nothing to do with the revealed debuff. If it wouldn’t work that would mean you should be able to stealth while debuffed.

Culling happens no matter what. The amount of people does NOT matter. It has been proven many many times and people really need to stop saying that it only happens in zergs. It was happening in PvP and was fixed as much as possible by Anet. In WvW it’s a bigger issue.

And like I said, I myself do not experience seconds of delay regarding coming out of stealth in WvW in small skirmishes. I’m not talking about zergs here, I experience it in zergs, and when zergs are nearby. But I do not experience it when I’m alone in a forgotten corner of the map and a lone thief tries to get the jump on me.

No offense of course but I’m not sure if you read my post. Please go back and read it again so you can see how culling acts as extra stealth while you have the revealed debuff.

But culling does not act as extra stealth as far as the revealed debuff is concerned. That is my point. You cannot restealth (as in, use an ability that actually grants stealth) while having the revealed debuff.

Edit: What I’m saying is that there’s nothing wrong with the revealed debuff, it’s working like it says on the tin. Culling is the problem, and it’ll be removed in WvW too later on this month. Does the revealed debuff automatically start working correctly then?

EvilSardine.9635:

One of my characters is a level 80 thief.

We tested it in a controlled environment on a mostly empty server. “Revealed” debuff does not work in WvW due to culling.

Here were the results:

You stealth, backstab, get revealed debuff, still invisible to enemy due to culling. By the time you phase in because of culling, the revealed debuff goes away and you can C/D again. The enemy IF he’s lucky can spot you for probably 1/4 of a second and that’s only if you mess up your timing as a thief.

This is NOT in zergs or large groups. This is tested on an empty server with extremely high end computers and very fast internet connections.

How on earth does this mean the revealed debuff is not working in wvw? What you’re describing is culling (which, again, I only see in large battles, not small skirmishes) and has nothing to do with the revealed debuff. If it wouldn’t work that would mean you should be able to stealth while debuffed.

Columba.9730:

magicthighs.5372:

Columba.9730:

magicthighs.5372:

Dralor.3701:

magicthighs.5372:

Columba.9730:

magicthighs.5372:

Columba.9730:

magicthighs.5372:

Columba.9730:

kbenton.4915:

I find it funny how people call WoW a broken kitten game (which it is), and then say anet should make gw more like wow. Hmmmm

I thought wow did a good job with stealth though. They didn’t have permastealthed killing enemies before the enemies could ever defend themselves.

Excuse me? WoW had stunlocking.

Stop trolling, please.

not trolling. I was addressing stealth, not other things. stop the personal attacks please.

That wasn’t a personal attack, I was pointing out that you’re trolling when you say stealth was fine in wow. You had guaranteed kills on people from stealth, unless they had a stunbreaker.

That’s not a problem with stealth. That’s an issue with stun.

Well then, if a thief kills you with Basilisk Venom -> C&D -> Steal -> Backstab combo before you even see him that’s not a stealth problem, since you can get out of it using a stun breaker. Sounds like issue with stun, right?

They didn’t have permastealth there

Apart from the whole being able to stay in stealth permanently.

There is a big difference between staying in stealth permanently, and having the appearance of permanent stealth while still being able to fully function in attack. The problem with thieves in GW2 WvW is they can take full action against you while not being rendered on the screen.

It would seem that culling is the problem then, not stealth. Luckily, Anet has said culling will be removed completely from WvW.

In other games with perma stealth you can see the thief/rogue as soon as they take their first action.

In GW2 you can see the thief as soon as he does direct damage. In large fights culling might be involved, but that has nothing to do with thieves themselves.

Nope, that’s not true. C&D for one, culling for another. Other classes can’t use culling to remain stealthed as thieves do. So it has plenty to do with thieves.

Culling is not stealth, stop pretending they’re the same thing. And C&D? From stealth? You’d get the revealed debuff. Other classes are subject to culling the same as thieves.

Seriously, stop talking nonsense.

Not stealth, but thieves get the most advantage from it because they can bridge their stealth downtimes with culling to get permastealth.

So you agree it’s not actually stealth, but you’re still calling it stealth? Why?

As many of us have proven, the revealed “debuff” actually doesn’t work in wvwvw.

Except you did no such thing, of course. For revealed to fail that would mean the thief can actually stealth during the debuff in WvW, which is still completely impossible.

Thieves have bragged about how they can spam c&d and remain stealthed. Stop talking nonsense.

You’re all over the board again. You, for some reason, brought up C&D, in this context:

magicthighs.5372:

In GW2 you can see the thief as soon as he does direct damage. In large fights culling might be involved, but that has nothing to do with thieves themselves.

To which you replied:

Columba.9730:

Nope, that’s not true. C&D for one, culling for another. Other classes can’t use culling to remain stealthed as thieves do. So it has plenty to do with thieves.

What you were apparently claiming there is that you can’t see the thief as soon as he does direct damage from stealth if he uses C&D, which is simply nonsense because they’d get the revealed debuff. Then you make up some malarkey about having proved the revealed debuff does not work in WvW, and thieves saying they can spam C&D to stay in stealth.

Oh, and before you mention it, you can’t possibly be referring to using C&D on walls here, since a) that was fixed last patch and b) I specifically said doing direct damage from stealth gives you the revealed debuff.

It would really help if you would stop posting all these blatant untruths. I really don’t care that you have a bee in your bonnet about thieves, but the amount of FUD you’re spreading is not acceptable.

[edit] fixed a typo

Columba.9730:

magicthighs.5372:

Dralor.3701:

magicthighs.5372:

Columba.9730:

magicthighs.5372:

Columba.9730:

magicthighs.5372:

Columba.9730:

kbenton.4915:

I find it funny how people call WoW a broken kitten game (which it is), and then say anet should make gw more like wow. Hmmmm

I thought wow did a good job with stealth though. They didn’t have permastealthed killing enemies before the enemies could ever defend themselves.

Excuse me? WoW had stunlocking.

Stop trolling, please.

not trolling. I was addressing stealth, not other things. stop the personal attacks please.

That wasn’t a personal attack, I was pointing out that you’re trolling when you say stealth was fine in wow. You had guaranteed kills on people from stealth, unless they had a stunbreaker.

That’s not a problem with stealth. That’s an issue with stun.

Well then, if a thief kills you with Basilisk Venom -> C&D -> Steal -> Backstab combo before you even see him that’s not a stealth problem, since you can get out of it using a stun breaker. Sounds like issue with stun, right?

They didn’t have permastealth there

Apart from the whole being able to stay in stealth permanently.

There is a big difference between staying in stealth permanently, and having the appearance of permanent stealth while still being able to fully function in attack. The problem with thieves in GW2 WvW is they can take full action against you while not being rendered on the screen.

It would seem that culling is the problem then, not stealth. Luckily, Anet has said culling will be removed completely from WvW.

In other games with perma stealth you can see the thief/rogue as soon as they take their first action.

In GW2 you can see the thief as soon as he does direct damage. In large fights culling might be involved, but that has nothing to do with thieves themselves.

Nope, that’s not true. C&D for one, culling for another. Other classes can’t use culling to remain stealthed as thieves do. So it has plenty to do with thieves.

Culling is not stealth, stop pretending they’re the same thing. And C&D? From stealth? You’d get the revealed debuff. Other classes are subject to culling the same as thieves.

Seriously, stop talking nonsense.

Dralor.3701:

magicthighs.5372:

Columba.9730:

magicthighs.5372:

Columba.9730:

magicthighs.5372:

Columba.9730:

kbenton.4915:

I find it funny how people call WoW a broken kitten game (which it is), and then say anet should make gw more like wow. Hmmmm

I thought wow did a good job with stealth though. They didn’t have permastealthed killing enemies before the enemies could ever defend themselves.

Excuse me? WoW had stunlocking.

Stop trolling, please.

not trolling. I was addressing stealth, not other things. stop the personal attacks please.

That wasn’t a personal attack, I was pointing out that you’re trolling when you say stealth was fine in wow. You had guaranteed kills on people from stealth, unless they had a stunbreaker.

That’s not a problem with stealth. That’s an issue with stun.

Well then, if a thief kills you with Basilisk Venom -> C&D -> Steal -> Backstab combo before you even see him that’s not a stealth problem, since you can get out of it using a stun breaker. Sounds like issue with stun, right?

They didn’t have permastealth there

Apart from the whole being able to stay in stealth permanently.

There is a big difference between staying in stealth permanently, and having the appearance of permanent stealth while still being able to fully function in attack. The problem with thieves in GW2 WvW is they can take full action against you while not being rendered on the screen.

It would seem that culling is the problem then, not stealth. Luckily, Anet has said culling will be removed completely from WvW.

In other games with perma stealth you can see the thief/rogue as soon as they take their first action.

In GW2 you can see the thief as soon as he does direct damage. In large fights culling might be involved, but that has nothing to do with thieves themselves.

Columba.9730:

Your original statement said that thieves had no defense other than stealth.
It made no comparative statements. It was an absolute comment.. That’s not accurate.

I said no such thing. Read my posts. I said all other classes have those defenses you listed, and then some.

Columba.9730:

magicthighs.5372:

Columba.9730:

thieves are fine in pve. see them doing well all the time.

You’ve stated before that you hate PvE.

Irrelevant and not all pve. I am forced to do pve nevertheless.

Yes, like soloing fractals to farm yellow mobs there, apparently. Where exactly do you run into those thieves you say do so well in PvE? It doesn’t seem like you do group PvE at all, you see.

Columba.9730:

magicthighs.5372:

Columba.9730:

magicthighs.5372:

Columba.9730:

kbenton.4915:

I find it funny how people call WoW a broken kitten game (which it is), and then say anet should make gw more like wow. Hmmmm

I thought wow did a good job with stealth though. They didn’t have permastealthed killing enemies before the enemies could ever defend themselves.

Excuse me? WoW had stunlocking.

Stop trolling, please.

not trolling. I was addressing stealth, not other things. stop the personal attacks please.

That wasn’t a personal attack, I was pointing out that you’re trolling when you say stealth was fine in wow. You had guaranteed kills on people from stealth, unless they had a stunbreaker.

That’s not a problem with stealth. That’s an issue with stun.

Well then, if a thief kills you with Basilisk Venom → C&D → Steal → Backstab combo before you even see him that’s not a stealth problem, since you can get out of it using a stun breaker. Sounds like issue with stun, right?

They didn’t have permastealth there

Apart from the whole being able to stay in stealth permanently.

Columba.9730:

magicthighs.5372:

Columba.9730:

kbenton.4915:

I find it funny how people call WoW a broken kitten game (which it is), and then say anet should make gw more like wow. Hmmmm

I thought wow did a good job with stealth though. They didn’t have permastealthed killing enemies before the enemies could ever defend themselves.

Excuse me? WoW had stunlocking.

Stop trolling, please.

not trolling. I was addressing stealth, not other things. stop the personal attacks please.

That wasn’t a personal attack, I was pointing out that you’re trolling when you say stealth was fine in wow. You had guaranteed kills on people from stealth, unless they had a stunbreaker.

RyuDragnier.9476:

magicthighs.5372:

Columba.9730:

magicthighs.5372:

Columba.9730:

Fizzlepip.5218:

I’m not even going to bother to read this:

Yes, Stealth is busted and shouldn’t have been included in PvP/WvW play.
But since they royally kittened that up, there’s no way of fixing it without serious game overhaul.

It would literally BREAK the Thief class. No, not make it so people wouldn’t play it because we wouldn’t be gimmicky backstabbers. Most good players have moved on from those builds. It would break it because Stealth is our only means of defense, some of our offense, and pretty much overall gameplay. You take Stealth from the game and Thieves are little more than giant paper targets.

Wrong. They can make a small stealth change. No need to be dramatic. You have other defense, like skill sum dodge, food, armor.

All other classes have those defenses, and then some.

so stealth is not the thief’s ONLY defense. Your steatement is incorrect. Don’t be so dramatic. Thieves could withstand a little stealth nerf here and there. It won’t be the end of the world.

My statement is not incorrect. All the other classes have those defenses, and then some.

Stealth doesn’t need a nerf. It’s fine, even in WvW.

How would you feel about making it so the damage numbers appear on other people’s screens if you take damage while in stealth? That way you’re still in stealth, but people know what general area you’re in. Or if you take maybe 20% more damage while in stealth?

I’m all for the numbers showing. Maybe not DoTs, but direct damage should show for sure.
As a temporary solution you can spam #1, if you go to the second attack in the chain you know you’ve hit them. But again, yes, I think the damage should show on your screen.

[edit] I realise that last part could be interpreted as being condescending. I didn’t intend it that way.

Columba.9730:

magicthighs.5372:

Columba.9730:

Fizzlepip.5218:

I’m not even going to bother to read this:

Yes, Stealth is busted and shouldn’t have been included in PvP/WvW play.
But since they royally kittened that up, there’s no way of fixing it without serious game overhaul.

It would literally BREAK the Thief class. No, not make it so people wouldn’t play it because we wouldn’t be gimmicky backstabbers. Most good players have moved on from those builds. It would break it because Stealth is our only means of defense, some of our offense, and pretty much overall gameplay. You take Stealth from the game and Thieves are little more than giant paper targets.

Wrong. They can make a small stealth change. No need to be dramatic. You have other defense, like skill sum dodge, food, armor.

All other classes have those defenses, and then some.

so stealth is not the thief’s ONLY defense. Your steatement is incorrect. Don’t be so dramatic. Thieves could withstand a little stealth nerf here and there. It won’t be the end of the world.

My statement is not incorrect. All the other classes have those defenses, and then some.

Stealth doesn’t need a nerf. It’s fine, even in WvW.

Columba.9730:

thieves are fine in pve. see them doing well all the time.

You’ve stated before that you hate PvE.

Columba.9730:

Fizzlepip.5218:

I’m not even going to bother to read this:

Yes, Stealth is busted and shouldn’t have been included in PvP/WvW play.
But since they royally kittened that up, there’s no way of fixing it without serious game overhaul.

It would literally BREAK the Thief class. No, not make it so people wouldn’t play it because we wouldn’t be gimmicky backstabbers. Most good players have moved on from those builds. It would break it because Stealth is our only means of defense, some of our offense, and pretty much overall gameplay. You take Stealth from the game and Thieves are little more than giant paper targets.

Wrong. They can make a small stealth change. No need to be dramatic. You have other defense, like skill sum dodge, food, armor.

All other classes have those defenses, and then some.

Columba.9730:

kbenton.4915:

I find it funny how people call WoW a broken kitten game (which it is), and then say anet should make gw more like wow. Hmmmm

I thought wow did a good job with stealth though. They didn’t have permastealthed killing enemies before the enemies could ever defend themselves.

Excuse me? WoW had stunlocking.

Stop trolling, please.

Karolis.4261:

Becouse the “thief community” asked for mobs (specially skill chalanges) not to reset after you stealth. Becouse thief community has so slow fingers, they didnt have enough time to stealthattack mobs after they stealthed. Well here you have it, enjoy.

There was no time to stealth attack certain skill challenge mobs, they’d turn friendly the moment you stealthed and run back to their spawn point.

killimandros.5087:

Sifu; you need 3 thieves, 13 players of whatever class with their brains connected to their spine. You make 3 SR, people enter and can attack unseen. 15 people stealthed. You have 4 thieves. You have 5 thieves…see the problem?

That’s not what you said. You claimed, and I quote:

killimandros.5087:

Yesterday my guildteam witnessed 2 thiefs making shadfow refugee, a group of 20 people entered, and thats the last we saw of them

As others have pointed out, it’s impossible for 2 thieves to stealth 20 people using shadow refuge, it has a limit of 5 people.

Phoebe Ascension.8437:

snip

Why did you copy and paste the same comment you posted here ?

Rezzet.3614:

1.Attack Rate vs High Damage – normally classes need high attack rate to compensate for the lack of damage that is not the case with the thiefs in this game and actually offers a huge advantage crit builds usually hit for 1.8-2.5k damage wich doesnt seem a big deal but now lets take thief’s attack speed to the formula 1.8×4=7200 damage per second or lets make it non crit 800×4=3200 damage per second as thiefs have an attack rate of 1/4

2.Initiative System- it is a bit gamebreaking having a class able to spam huge damage skills without a cooldown nor penalty.

3.the obvoius Stealth: it is a mechanic that has never worked on any other MMO before and in this game it is implemented in a much worse way.

4.the extras you mix with all these Shadowstep and teleportation assures thief kills as his target will never out run him even with swiftness and viceversa a skilled thief wont be caught because he ll simply stealth and/or teleport away from harm and reset the fight.

as for those who say thiefs can be countered yes some but why is it ok for a class to go full glass cannon and not be punished for mistakes also even if the defending player is a pure toughness healing build thiefs can apply conditions in a blink over and over thus rendering toughness useless for the player while dealing huge direct damage.

both Direct and Condition damage are superior than that of most classes.

1. What the hell are you about?
2. There is a downside. Weapon switch.
3. Stealth is fine.
4. Thieves are intended to be slippery. Anet has said so.

Glass cannon thieves do pay a penalty; they die almost instantly by random AOE in large fights.

You’re complaining about condition builds being able to apply conditions because they ignore armor? Really? This is thief-specific how, exactly?

DanH.5879:

columba, you are in the wrong topic mate, the wvw complaints are here:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/The-thief-and-its-gameplay-Your-feedback/page/57#post1480276

the reputation you have as a thief hater will never go away
what you said is a lie, and you know it.

Some interesting and peculiar posts by Columba there, for instance:

Columba.9730:

let’s hope that the culling bug fix addresses the huge imbalance. right now I don’t even rezz thieves on my server.

And about Columba taking thieves in pve groups all the time? Somehow I doubt it:

Columba.9730:

More dungeons. I hate dungeons. It would have nice to acknowledge the near universal disgust at the gear grind.

Columba.9730:

Budchgon.2108:

Was in W3 today and stood on a tower watching 10 of my fellow server players try to take down a single stealth bs thief… They were using AoE, flailing around and even running around in circles ‘like headless chickens’.
Kudos to the Thief, he knew his class and was wiping the floor with my fellow players who couldn’t target him to hit him.
Shame, as those 10 players could have been useful in taking camps/towers but I guess dying to a Thief was more important.

This happens all the time, and it’s horribly broken. It’s astounding that some people think that this is just fine.

Sarcasm detection fail -_-

Columba.9730:

Majik.8521:

Retrospek.4583:

A proper proposal to fix the problems with thieves in my opinion would be that not only does outgoing damage break stealth, but also incoming damage breaks stealth.

stealth breaking on damage taken would just kill the thieves.

i still believe the best solution is to apply revealed debuff every time they come out of stealth.

No it wouldn’t. Every other game has this. There’s no reason this game shouldn’t.

Go play every other game then.

Daecollo.9578:

Columba.9730:

frans.8092:

Columba.9730:

well none of my ranger weapon skills work under water either.

You unlock underwater weapon skills by using the weapon in combat, same as regular weapon skills. If they are broken I am sorry, they oughta be fixed asap. Underwater is poorly done, combat wise.

The OP was talking about utility skills.

My utility skills don’t work underwater either.

Rangers still have access to there pets underwater, and they also don’t lose anything but some shouts and traps, thieves lose almost all of there mobility and skills and stun breaks underwater.

Thieves also lose there F1 Ability. (Steal.) Underwater.

Rangers at the moment, are the strongest class in the game underwater. They simply cannot die, even with 4-5 players beating on them.

Correction: steal works underwater, unless you’ve stolen an ability that can’t be used underwater.

Don’t you play a mesmer, DavyMcB.1603?

Kasama.8941:

magicthighs.5372:

Are you serious? No one writes about it on the forums?

(a lot of links)

And of course the massive 43 page whingefest:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/The-thief-and-its-gameplay-Your-feedback

Well then I guess stealth for the Thief isn’t a problem after all.

Your claim was that nobody writes about it on the forums, remember? And that’s why you decided to start this thread, instead of adding your feedback to the 43 page thread that was right there, on the front page of the thief forums, at the time you posted yours.

I mean, clearly not a lot of players think it is an issue..

What, the issue of it being “no fun” to play against thieves? That it’s “not fair” that they can decide to disengage? Yeah, those are some pretty strong points, seriously.

critickitten.1498:

Often as a matter of courtesy since the puzzle is the “true enemy”, I let enemy players continue through the puzzle. In fact, not a few minutes before posting this, I allowed a Kaineng thief through the Mistwrought Vault in EB’s map, and I have no problem with that….the problem is the other three Kaineng players who thought they’d get their giggles from trying to kill us (I killed at least two such people). Not everyone is so courteous.

Nothing personal, but you’re not contributing to your server. You’re a waste of a spot in the wvw queue. I wish they’d just remove these JPs from wvw.

uknortherner.2670:

I see you failed to address the little fact that I have female friends who don’t have a problem with the armour in this game. If they haven’t got a problem with it (and yes, they play the bloody game), why should you?

Wait, so you’re saying these female friends of yours get to decide other people’s desires in armor skins?

Edit: hey, you know what? I’d like a skimpy male armor skin, just like the women get. Is it a valid concern now?

Ranger loot bag pet?

Kasama.8941:

I wrote this topic because I recognize that stealth for the Thief is currently imbalanced, and I think it’s important to speak up about it, because everyone in the game seem to be complaining, yet no one really writes about it on the forums where ArenaNet can read it.

Are you serious? No one writes about it on the forums?

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Stealth-to-Shadow-Form
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Thoughts-Burning-as-a-stealth-counter
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Stealth-suggestion-More-but-Less
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Overpowered-Thieves
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Cloack-Dagger
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/How-to-fix-the-stealth-issue
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Counter
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/A-single-fix-that-would-help-balance-stealth

And of course the massive 43 page whingefest:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/The-thief-and-its-gameplay-Your-feedback

ComeAndSee.1356:

Aza.2105:

I feel that many players tend to think about how old style mmos work, i.e soak up damage with mitigation. Its true to a extent in gw2 but toughness, armor and vitality should be considered more of a buffer that is used when you make a error. Dodge is the real mitigation in game, along with block and blind.

That is the case in sPvP, but not for WvW.

Toughness, Vitality, and Armor generally works fine on every class, but Thiefs and Warriors basically ignore your armor with certain abilities.

My Thief -> Stonetouch Venom -> Shadowstep -> Haste -> Cloak n Dagger -> Backstab -> Heartseeker = you’re dead.

None of those abilities ignore armor. Condition damage, however, does.

Parsee Komeiji.2049:

If people always complain about stealth classes, then stealth classes are never fun.

Oh noes, they’re no fun?. Why do people play thieves (or mesmers, for that matter) then, if they’re no fun?

If stealth classes are never fun, then they are bad game design.

Given that false premise, this is what is called a non sequitur.

Essentially, you’re arguing stealth should be removed from the game, full stop. I agree.

No, the person you’re replying to was being sarcastic.

Contrary to the claims of stealth exploiters, there are viable Thief builds which don’t use stealth, so there’s no need to even rework the class—just a few skills and traits, which they do all the time anyway.

Viable non stealth builds? No, not really. Unless you think P/P is viable.

And no, stealth is not the “core mechanic” of the class. Initiative is the core mechanic. Stealth is a tacked on ability which has turned out to be a bad idea.

In your personal opinion.

This would also instantaneously fix the OP burst builds, because thieves would actually have to worry about durability without the practical immortality granted by stealth. They would no longer have the option of going full glass with no consequences.

So what you’re saying is that you think removing stealth would “fix” the thief glass cannon build? And you call that balance?

Congratulations, mate. I see you’re still as awesome as you were on karak-azgal.

Did he manage to kill anyone?

Nuzt.7894:

Iove.3902:

Nerf Thieves? You realize that we have been nerfed into the ground and our only viable specs are those that abuse culling or burst and kill in one hit? All of our specs also die in one hit, to anything. Maybe, if people actually played a thief, you guys can understand how frustrating that is that I’m forced to play a certain way in PvP. This game could use some balancing for sure, but so can every game. It’s not just so simple as coming up with a few ideas to nerf classes to fix or balance PvP. There are tons of variables.

Played one at level 5, 1 Utility, most people took zero effort to kill, and if I did make a bad decision I simply walked away from the fight with zero consiquences. Maybe I’m just that good … but I seriously doubt it.

I think you’re confusing Thieves with Liars. Please, capture some video of you owning as a level 5 thief in wvw, I’d love to see it.

RedOwl.7496:

So you KNOW with absolute certainty that this what ANET intended? Show me somewhere where they say they intended the class to be able to roam at will and “assassinate” people. Seems like they intended them to be able to steal abilities from stealth…not be overpowered roaming gankers.

Just because you think they should be assassins does not make it so.

For all you know they want everyone to have to run around in zergs. Seems like it since that is what 98% of WvW is right now.

Just hope they change it so you have to risk as much running around solo as much as everyone else has to someday instead of having easy mode solo.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/info/news/Game-Update-Notes-December-14-2012/first#post999247

Thief

Thieves are the masters of mobility, stealth and high single target damage. They can be very fragile if you counter their stealth with area of effects or large stacks of conditions, but they trade this fragility in order to have some of the highest burst damage in the game. They are able to help allies through traps, venoms and the mobility to flank most encounters.