RIP in peace Robert
(edited by Moderator)
Each of you have validity in your comments, you should just agree to disagree; even though I would be leaning toward Bagel.
Yes, it’s stupid that we ‘need’ (used loosely) to grind in order to obtain gear that allows us to achieve enough AR to tackle high end fractals.
Yes, you don’t ‘have’ to grind that AR.
But, the validity in the concern with the player imposed -must have xx AR- is something that does happen. Even if Anets intent is to not impose these limitations, the current agony resist system does enforce this among the player base itself.
I’m sure had they taken the time or reflected on the current agony system and methods of obtaining them, they could tweak, balance and amend… but given the expansive nature of the game, I’m sure they’ve got an infinite number of things up on the whiteboard.
I honestly believe it is another hidden ploy to tempt players to the gemstore.
If players don’t want to grind or don’t have the gold to make any ascended gear, they need to resort to infusions for AR.
If they don’t have the gold to buy AR, or the time to farm THOUSANDS of infusions in fractals to reach that AR target needed, then hopefully they’ll resort to purchasing gems.
That or grind somewhere else in game for the gold required.
What it boils down to in every direction is a grind of some form.
Hardly a “hidden” ploy. It’s clearly their new business model. They want to get as close to pay-to-win as possible but still far enough away that there’ll still be white knights saying that “you don’t have to…”
Edit: “pay” to win, not “play” to win.
(edited by Lord Kuru.3685)
I like doing high level fractals.
I don’t like grinding for gold.
What now, Volk?
“It all gets back to our basic design philosophy. Our games aren’t about preparing to have fun, or about grinding for a future fun reward. Our games are designed to be fun from moment to moment.”
The nice thing is… they’ve kept to this. We aren’t required to grind in GW2. You don’t need to spend off-raid days grinding away in preparation for raid days where you grind away for gear to access the next tier of raid to grind away for more gear… ad nauseum.
I don’t find running around watering crops and feeding cows to complete a heart at level 1 fun.
I don’t find running mindlessly through every map doing boring repetitive events for gold and map completion.
I find challenging content much like what’s seen in high level Fractals fun, but you’re right I don’t have to grind to be able to par take in tha- wait.
That’s not true Volkon. I have many friends who want to play fotm49 but are capped at fotm39 because they don’t have enough gold to buy ascended armor/weapons.. which would be the only way they could get enough agony resist. We are required to grind gold if we want to play the challenging fractal levels.
If I wanted a gear-gated pve experience I would play another game.
“‘We just don’t want players to grind in Guild Wars 2. No one enjoys that. No one finds it fun.”
“we don’t make grindy games”
Welcome to Grind Wars 2.
Fixed.
18 80s | 12 100% | r177 | wvw r970 | 9,000+ hours
BP → DR → FA → Mag → BP → FA
BP → DR → FA → Mag → BP → FA
After ascended introduction you have stats increase. This forces you to get it ASAP to have the same benefits in stats as exotics granted previously. This prevents you from doing other content (in most cases it’s psychological desire, but it doesn’t really matter. With one patch ANET made you a second class citizen considering initial game setup and manifesto). Or you can admit that manifesto failed and this game is the same as the others MMOs on the market now. In this case I’ll switch to another game as soon as will find a good one.
Forces? Why? What can’t you do in the game without ascended stats? Is there new content that’s ascended only that I didn’t hear about?
Eh… no. You’re not forced into getting ascended. Maybe you think you are as a relic of past games where numbers were far more significant, but no, it’s ridiculous to claim that you’re being “forced” into ascended gear. If you want it, go for it. If not, nothing changes.
Forces. Sheesh.
Emphasized the initial post to aide with reading comprehension.
Emphasizing a falsehood doesn’t make it magically true.
Feelings aren’t true or false, they are feelings.
Obviously, if you look at the forums, there are many people who feel as if the have to get ascended gear, or who feel dissatisfied until they get ascended gear. I know you don’t HAVE to have it. But you don’t HAVE to play the game. And you certainly shouldn’t play a game that makes you feel second class.
My apologies then, I was thinking factually as opposed to feelingsy.
LOL So this game is your second job so you don’t have feeling about it ? TBH I will even leave my job if I will stop having fun doing it.
- I bought a product where BiS item is meant to be a normal thing when you reach 80. It was true and it was designed like this. ANED didn’t admit that manifesto changed so I assume now ascended should be a normal item for lvl 80. Is it normal logical chain ? What is a reason for want/need conversation ? * Or ANET sold one product and then changed it to another. In this case it’s a good approach to propose money back to unsatisfied players.
You don’t need exotics to do most of the activities. Are you using them though ? My bet is ‘yes’. Still nobody forces you. It’s a matter of convenience.
Grind can be considered mental disease if you want to talk about diseases. You spend tons of your time like a robot to get something that is meant to be easy to get. And you are happy about it. I’m currently just spending less time in this game in general, so I assume I’m not that bad.
No grind for BIS means exactly that : no need to do repetitive tasks for obtaining BIS.
They thought it could work, it did not.Could you explain why it didn’t work and what is different in the current system?
I thought the BIS weapon was legendary weapons.
Can’t you buy legendary weapons off the TP with real money by converting gems to gold?
Can’t you also buy time gated Ascended materials as well as crafting materials to level your crafting skill with real money?
So what exactly are we fixing by adding new tiers of gear and then making us choose between grinding out long lists of materials or buying them with real money? Why is this better?
Legendary was not BiS actually. It had the same stats as exotics. As a result Legendary was a horizontal progression. You don’t need it to be (or to feel) competitive. You can work on it for month while doing other content.
After ascended introduction you have stats increase. This forces you to get it ASAP to have the same benefits in stats as exotics granted previously. This prevents you from doing other content (in most cases it’s psychological desire, but it doesn’t really matter. With one patch ANET made you a second class citizen considering initial game setup and manifesto). Or you can admit that manifesto failed and this game is the same as the others MMOs on the market now. In this case I’ll switch to another game as soon as will find a good one.
I guess its not a gear treadmill then because exotic armor is still plenty capable of getting any job done. Like others have noted in the forums in increase is really minuscule you can’t notice the slightest difference. You don’t NEED this armor to do anything.
Ascended gear is noticeably stronger. A mix of Soldier’s Armor with Berserker trinkets and weapons hits harder then full Berserker exotics (almost 30%!) , yet has more then 2K additional Hit points and 250 more armor (for medium armor). Don’t try to qualify that difference as ‘minuscule’.
ptfff…..If that’s the case, then Valkyrie Ascended armor should hit 50% harder than Full Berserker Exotics….but It doesn’t.
My bad, mixed up the columns, Ascended PVT/Zerker hits 15% harder then Exotic Full Zerker. Ascended Valkyre/Zerker hits 21% over and Acended Zerker 33%.
Greed happened.
Or maybe the want to actually survive happened?
It is extremely unlikely that the game (and therefore also the company) would survive more than a year if they only ever did exactly as people interpreted the Manifesto.
It’s a bit more complicated than that. I doubt that the leadership was so naive.
IMO they knew what will come and they lied to get fatter.
The manifesto is a 3 year old 5 minute video. If people watched that and ignored everything said after that it’s not Anet’s fault.
I lost the count of how many time this has been asked, but anyway… Why a “3 years old 5 minutes video”, is still on the main page of GW2’s website, and “everything said after” don’t?
But if people only listen to a single video and then ignore all those articles and stuff clarifying things during the YEARS between Manifesto release and game release it IS the players fault.
As i said… Manifesto is on the mainpage, articles and stuff are not even in the database… Because they got conveniently lost when they changed from beta to release…
Most of the statesments the devs made about the game prior to release didn’t mention vertical progression or gear grind at all. Only an tiny tiny percentage of dev quotes talked about that, and almost always only in response to a question asked by someone.
So all the people who complain about this, and left the game must have some kind of problem at reading/listening what the devs said… And all the quotes they put as signature, taken from devs’ interviews and blog post, must’ve been some kind of collective allucination, right?
Sic transit gloria mundi, I guess.
still don’t understand if you like this grind or not.
and it’s always us, the same people, to post and reply on the forum.
maybe all the others are ok with the game…or already quitted ;D
Oh I’m definitely not ok with the grind, but by the looks of it there’s no hope of Anet stopping it. It’s the only way they know how to create content that keeps players playing (fun, enjoyable content — what’s that?).
Lots of people here are deluding themselves into thinking that “Ascended will be it — the last bit of stuff to grind and then we’ll start getting quality content.” But there’s no way that’s true. As I said, infusion slot stat grind will almost certainly come next.
As primarily a WvW player, when I reach the point that I feel I can’t keep up with the Joneses on the grind, I’ll quit. It’s already pretty bad in that I’m playing less and less with alts because they are undergeared — so the game is getting more and more stale.
+1
i think that if anet does really want to be different in the mmo market should rely on these 2 themes:
roleplaying (more players’ involvement in world events, not just an infinite chain of grind. making the player count in tyria. housing, ambient changes) and customization. (more skills, more weapons, more skins, mounts, etc)
but seems it’s already too late.
the usual farming-grinding is hereNever too late until the servers shut down.
Although I don’t expect some of your “roleplaying” list of improvements – notably “housing” – to make it. The last game I played which actually had housing matter also had serious problems with limited space.
Though the “customization” list seems to be in their minds, given how they tried to put in healing skills. Weapon and armor skins . . . really hope we get more, and almost a given we will.
Mounts? Probably staying right out and won’t be showing up. I honestly don’t know why people keep asking for them.
well, It’s all down to personal taste. i’d love mounts.
and, obviously…
if, and only if, ascended is really the last tier….and the last BiS…and if anet creates more interesting (and viable) ways to craft them, could be interesting to come back into the game.
xDDon’t think they will revamp the crafting methods, and I think Ascended is the best we will see for now. Unless the next set of areas permanently added to the game are incredibly more difficult, I expect we won’t see anything at all.
If they do “Legendary Armor” it’ll probably be through existing armor being back-worked into “Precursors”. I’d suspect using the named exotic pieces would be that, and the method requiring things crafted at skill 450+ along with some other “Gift” item to transform them. It’ll have the same stats as Ascended but be flexibly able to be changed, as per the weapons.
And the gods willing, it won’t be ugly.
Dont’ forget infusion slots. There is an opportunity for Anet to insert grind there by raising the max possible stats for each infusion slot — and they’ll likely do it.
As for Ascended armor precursors, it won’t be the existing named armors:
- People who just have them in their inventory get a huge advantage. People will be upset.
- A lot of those are floating around. Not grindy enough. The whole point of Legendary gear is to make you grind so you stay with the game longer.
preventively, i won’t log again until anet defines its new targets and modus operandi.
i started playing because of manifesto. continued to play because i hoped they would still keep their word.
for now, nothing ensures me they will. no more trust. only facts.let’s wait and see. more grind? more infusions instead of (or) new armours (that’s the same: new BiS and grind again)? casual players like me will easily find another game.
I’m afraid you’re going to have to find another game. They have said Ascended is the final tier (for the meanwhile) but yet the only “content” they know how to make is to add grind. So they’ve got to use a loophole to the “final tier” statement. That loophole will be infusion slots.
Furthermore, despite all that they’ve said, they actually LOVE grind. It’s the only way they know to keep players in the game.
The easiest conclusion is that they’ll add grind to the infusion slots — it’s 100% clear they’re going to do it for Agony resistance, adding a stat grind is a very small step from that.
Sic transit gloria mundi, I guess.
I don’t understand why
Common -> Fine -> Masterwork -> Rare -> Exotic -> Legendary….
is not a gear treadmill, but..Common -> Fine -> Masterwork -> Rare -> Exotic -> Ascended -> Legendary
is a gear treadmill?Why? because it takes more than a handful of hours to get?
Basically, yes. Gear progression turns into a treadmill when you have to work hard to keep up with it. If you can come back after a lengthy absence, skip few tiers and equip yourself in BiS almost right away after login, it allows you to shortcut the whole “running to stay at the same spot” problem.
Gear progression is a treadmill when you are constantly throwing away your BIS armor because new BIS armor was introduced with new content and your old BIS armor simply isn’t capable of getting the job done now.
I guess its not a gear treadmill then because exotic armor is still plenty capable of getting any job done. Like others have noted in the forums in increase is really minuscule you can’t notice the slightest difference. You don’t NEED this armor to do anything.
The difference is anything but minuscule. I could easily notice a damage increase of 14-19%.
If you look at the number of times in the “advertising” words like vertical progression were mentioned, you’d find that the game was advertised on dynamic events, personal story, and active combat.
The number of times an aspect of a product is advertised is not relevant. If you own a store that sells men’s clothing and advertise ten times that your shirts cost $10 putting out one hundred advertisements that your jackets cost $100 does not negate the advertisement for your shirts.
Yes the Manifesto is a three year old video…one that is still presented on the game’s official site.
Focusing on the manifesto is probably barking up the wrong tree. The manifesto is somewhat vague. Discussing subjective issues like grind or fun is going to lead to disagreement. Those terms are going to mean different things to different people. Also, peoples’ thresholds for grind will vary.
Now, statements like “Exotics will be top tier, Legendaries will have the same stats as exotics.” and “Players should have max statistical gear by level 80.” are not subjective. The fact is, these statements were made, and were not “corrected” prior to launch. As much as some of us don’t like the shift, it’s happened. However, continuing to discuss displeasure with this aspect of the game has potential benefits — namely, as a deterrent to further tiers.
As to whether the change was implemented because the game would not have survived without it, that is pure speculation with no shred of proof anywhere. The only thing I believe we can safely infer is that management believed the game would be more profitable with Ascended than without it.
Remember the statements that were made by ANet about the number of box sales being much higher than expected. This implies they sold boxes outside what they believed their target demographic to be. Changing gear progression and ease of attaining BiS was likely a calculated move to appeal to the gear chaser demographic (outside the group they expected to attract), while implementing the new BiS with minimal ties to hard content was an effort to retain the anti-traditional-MMO crowd, which was their target audience.
The manifesto (or the spirit behind it, for those of you who hide behind semantics when defending this game) got sold down the river in exchange for quick and easy profits. Nothing more, nothing less.
I believe the dog ate the manifesto.
You made me laugh:).
I believe the dog ate the manifesto.
“Ph’nglui mglw’nafh Steve R’lyeh wgah’nagl fhtagn.”
drop chance: me getting with mila kunis
Progression is tangibly growing in some capacity, not learning to play better.
Self improvement, such as learning to play better, is, “growing in some capacity.”
You don’t improve your chess game by buying tougher chess pieces, you improve your knowledge of the game, your opponent’s strategies, your own skill, you know, the skills that live between your ears. This is the kind of skill progression that is far more rewarding then rehashing the same actions to get a more powerful avatar. This is one aspect that GW1 did better, something we loved about it that did not make it into GW2.
Greater challenges should require greater skill to overcome, not greater avatars.
Of course. I enjoyed GW1’s approach to this very much. I was not commenting on which form of progression I prefer, but merely pointing out that gear progression is a form of progression (even if I personally dislike it).
(edited by Ashen.2907)
The logical problem with your thought process is that you assume the complaints are correct and that listening to them will make the game better. Players aren’t developers and often what they want and ask for would be worse.
The problem is people don’t know the difference between their opinion and objective fact.
So, critique = automatically wrong and praise = correct? If there’s nothing but praise, there’ll be no improvement. I do agree that a lot of people are just venting their anger, but on these forums, there’s a good deal of good feedback and suggestions to improve the game. I’d also claim that most people that are bitter towards the direction GW2 is taking are fans who want it to be better and more to their liking (such as myself).
If anything it’s the “if you don’t like it shut up and stop playing” attitude that stops the game from getting better. There’s always room for constructive criticism and the solution to problems is not shutting your ears and shouting LA LA LA I CANT HEAR YOU THIS GAME IS TEH BEST.
It means, you choose the weapon and the game will choose the skills for you.
You don’t have to do anything except swing with a sword, swing again and oh look at that swing again – which is literally opposite of what was said in the manifesto you probably saw.
it means the game revolves around using the #1 weapon skill to accomplish everything from riding the ‘Queensdale Champ Train’ to defeating massive world bosses to zerging mindlessly in WvWvW. its a “SKILL-based game” and that skill is auto-attack.
How can you claim the vast majority wanted it when these forums have been full of complaints about it?
Did you miss all the threads about more gear grind or people leave shortly after launch?
Well, there weren’t that much of those, so they were easy to miss.
There were people asking for new content, there were people asking for raids, new dungeons, new skins (preferably exclusive to hard content), there were people asking for mounts and holy trinity. But whenever someone asked for a gear grind (which happened maybe a few times), then everyone (including most of the “give us more” crowd) pointed them towards the door outside.
No, there was never a moment in this game when a majority of players asked for gear grind. There was never a moment when a majority of forum posters asked for a gear grind. In fact, until ascended were introduced, there was never even a large minority that spoke in favor of gear grind (though those did appear after November 2012). If you don’t believe me, just go look through those threads yourself, they are still there on forum.
The main kitten about ascended right now is because it’s crafted and account bound. Yes, plenty of people still complain that we have it, period, but the loudest complaints have been due to acquisition not that it exists.
Only because complaining about its existence gets us nowhere – Anet is not going to remove it from the game at this point. Also, it was never about “crafted” or “account bound” – the main problem is that it is hard to get (if it were as easy to acquire as exotics, then you are right, most of the complains would disappear).
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
I think you missed my point, perhaps due to missing a single word in my post. I didn’t say, “new challenges,” I said, “greater challenges.”
The distinction is important to the point I made. The character becomes more capable of overcoming tougher opposition. The character is more powerful, as can be seen by the ease with which he can now defeat opponents that would have previously challenged him. But, as is common in a game, the character moves on to challenges worthy of his new found power.
When I improve my chess game in order to be able to challenge opponents higher rated than I the progression is not illusory because I opt to play primarily opponents who are a challenge for my new level of skill.
You don’t improve your chess game by buying tougher chess pieces, you improve your knowledge of the game, your opponent’s strategies, your own skill, you know, the skills that live between your ears. This is the kind of skill progression that is far more rewarding then rehashing the same actions to get a more powerful avatar. This is one aspect that GW1 did better, something we loved about it that did not make it into GW2.
Greater challenges should require greater skill to overcome, not greater avatars.
“Must have BiS gear” is a conditioned mentality, you can overcome it.
and why ? because of the authority of anet?
also people who asked for ascended could overcome thier desires.
they also had manifesto against them.we’re customers just like you.
it’s our right to struggle for what we like.
Bingo. The people whose cries brought Ascended on in the first place didn’t adapt to the game as it was. I guess that was alright because they “won.”
I feel its worth pointing out that in this game you do have to work for your gear. There is vertical progression. After you have geared your newly minted 80, you can start on another build for your character. Start another toon, even.
But progressing is not a grind when you can play any part of the game you want to and build up your gear from it. You can do dungeons, craft, farm gold to buy gear etc….
You have to work for it, but you do it your way.
.
Ascended brings in the Grind
Ascended does not give you very many options. Its basically all about crafting. Whether you like it or not. And lets be honest, crafting is all about gold unless your rich then you have to farm it yourself. (Its also about daily CDs -YAWN!)
With Ascended Anet brought the “feeling of the grind” into GW2, mashed it up, added no salt or spices and said “Eat it or leave it” and walked out the door slamming it shut behind them.
.
Ascended in PvE
In PvE ascended gear is of no consquence, unless your build fails due to some “stat threshhold” that exotic gear can’t reach.
.
Ascended and WvW
In WvW, however, if you want to stay competitive, you have to have it. In PvP the small things count. When you have 300ms vs a player who has 30ms, you will miss more often, waste more abilities… every little thing adds up. Throw in another 5% advantage here and there and suddenly a player you could beat becomes quite difficult.
“But Myst, WvW is only about zerging!”
Not true, small skirmishes and 1v1s are common place out there. In fact, recent changes to the Borderland maps are in an effort to encourage scaled down warfare!
Whats true for the individual, however, is also true for the zerg. 5% here, 5% there, one zerg with 12 stacks of might vs a zerg with 24 stacks of might, all those little things add up on the large scale as well as the small!
.
Conclusion
You can argue that ascended gear gives a small advantage, but its still an advantage! And its a lot of boring grinding to get that advantage! Add in the fact that you might have several sets of gear per character, multiple characters… Its all getting a bit out of hand.
I think Ascended hasn’t added anything to the game. Its and effort to appease some people who are craving a reward. Rewarding players is something that Anet is very poor at. But I don’t think gear grinding is the answer.