yes, skill is important.
so, why to give even that 5% improvement in stats? skill would become the ONLY important thing in a fight.
wasn’t it sufficient to create just more tiers of legendary weapons armor etc…or even “ascended”…but with same statistics with existing exotics?
just to give cosmetic advancement to players who dedicate enough time to get that equipment?
everybody would have played and grinded without flaming in this forum, and also “pro grinding” players could find their reason d’etre in grinding for a better appearance of their characters
pro’s would show their real qualities in battle, AND in appearance.
and everybody would be fine
That’s a really good point. Basically if the new tier of ascended stats don’t matter much then why even bother making them different than exotics at all, except cosmetically? And if they do matter then people will justifiably feel they are forced to grind to stay competitive.
I guess my own motivation for lazily going for ascended armor (only have one piece so far) is just for an abstract sense of accomplishment that I have ‘best in slot’ gear. I’m transmuting all the ascended armor anyway since I personally don’t like the look so it’s really just a personal goal that I don’t feel forced to complete, just an extra option. I think without the slight stat improvement I wouldn’t have a reason to bother though.
Thinking about it more if they were to make a variety of styles available within each armor type to choose from, maybe even switchable like stats on legendaries, I would probably ‘grind’ for ascended armor even without any stat change.
Yeah I agree, something other than a small stat boost with ascendeds would have quieted a lot of the controversy. Again, good point.
Guild Wars 2 needs some form of grind sadly like every other MMO for the simple fact if there is no grind whatso ever then you’ll play it like a singleplayer game til you beat it then move on to another game.
This is what Arenanet were trying to get away from though.
Miranda Zero – Ele / Twitch Zero – Mes / Chargrin Soulboom – Engi
Aliera Zero – Guardian / Reaver Zero – Necro
Each new tier of gear in WoW was a monumental increase in stats. It was necessary. And to attain it you had to run raids. Endlessly. And they took forever to get together if you weren’t part of an organized raid guild.
GW2 has released exactly 1 new tier of gear since launch over a year ago: Ascended. They released trinkets first, then weapons, then armor separately, but all still just 1 new tier. I have no problems with the trinket acquisition. However, Ascended weapons and armor requiring expensive and time consuming crafting is ridiculous.
People are upset at the single new tier since it’s contrary to the original GW2 manifesto. But it’s still nothing like WoW.
[TTBH] [HATE], Yak’s Bend(NA)
I think people are missing the point how ever. That being the sore lack of content lately and the massive increase in grind. The grind is so bad now. You have to ask what is the point of it any more?
You say do some thing you enjoy playing. But how many times can do you do that some thing with out variety until you despise doing that after the thousandth time? The game is limiting what you can do and what you can enjoy in game by tagging on grind after grind.
Also @ gaspara: I stopped playing pretend a long time ago. There are also better online games out there to play pretend in.
So why could you enjoy it for a over a year, but suddenly can’t due to Fractals and/or Ascended Armor?
Because the grind for best in slot has become too excessive and tedious.
And also completely unnecessary, seeing as now when everything is out the difference is way too minor to change the outcome of 99% of the fights.
Incorrect. Every stat matters. Do you like doing 10% less damage?
I can get by with being mute and not communicating to my party members. Is that the optimal way to play? No.
So why could you enjoy it for a over a year, but suddenly can’t due to Fractals and/or Ascended Armor?
Because the grind for best in slot has become too excessive and tedious.
I started since head start of the game.
I used to log on every day to do the dailies.
I used to care about getting every achievement point I could.
I’ve obtained the commander feature.
I’ve hit 80 on eight characters.
I’ve crafted 5 ascended weapons for my main.
I’ve crafted a legendary for my main.
I’ve reached the top 700 in achievement points.
Then the fractal revamp hit. Then come the ascended armors.
Now I’ve stopped caring. I’m losing interest.
Because I do not want to even think of farming for different tiers of cloth from mobs for ascended armors. Because I no longer want to repeat content I’ve done a thousand times before for an insignificant reward.
This has become a Korean grinder. I’m now struggling to log in.
So what your saying is yes, because ascended armor is not easy to get… by your definition makes it a gear treadmill.
No, because it is a better best-in-slot then the previous best-in-slot. The previous best-in-slot was obtainable with regular play while the new best-in-slot require grind. And frankly, I find my daytime job more fun then MMO-grind.
Sorry not all of us feel that way, if they had said they planned to add more tier
They never said they planned for the current tier best-in-slot and I doubt they’d be announcing the next tier (or many would be waiting).
Ascended armor is not restrictive to content.
It will be, eventually. They’ll add new content (they already have added new content) balanced for the current best-in-slot.
The game needs some type of progression to be rewarded for playing or it wouldn’t even be a game.
You are contradicting your earlier statement about there not being a gear-treadmill by saying there must be progression for it to be a game.
On a side note, completing interesting challenges is enough for me, I find it a silly notion that there must be (gear) progression to make it a game.
Your game got grindy, ascended weapons/armor lead people to do only content that gives the most beneficial time/material ratio for ascended gear becasue everyone will strive for the best items stat-wise. This isn’t fun and the overall game experience is suffering from it.
I think the question Anet has to ask themselves should be:
How can we combine horizontal progression with one of the core aspects of the game: exploration, without having it feel grindy. And how can we do this without having the player experiencing the same thing again when he starts a new character (avoiding traditional quests).
The manifesto is dead. Killed by money talk.
What a lot of people in this thread arent looking at is from the point of a new player. They are told the best gear in the game is ascended gear (and it is) so that is what they go for because everyone knows if you have any type of edge (mainly wvw) people will take you for dungeons or you will have an easier time in wvw. The only place where the manifesto is still in effect is spvp and tpvp.
You are already seeing things like this happen in dungeons with the lfg tool where people saying “zerker ascended gear only 4k achive points” that basically makes my necromancer useless in more ways than one. The ascended items like the neck rings and trinkets have a higher increase in stats than just 5%, its actually almost doubled in stats. Take the berserker rings, exotic has 67 power 48 precision and 3% critical damage with no upgrades. The ascended berserker rings have 103 power 68 precision and 8% critical damage. Thats almost a 40 point gain in power, a 20 point gain in precision and 5% gain in critical damage. With a upgrade in the exotic gear it is a lower jump but it is still a big enough difference for people to need it to stay competitive in wvw if numbers of players remain at a constant.
Yeah you dont “need” ascended gear for most of the pve content but its the best gear you can get and if you arent working towards it then why even bother playing. You can get exotics in about a min now unless your going for something other than crafted gear from the AH.
You have to grind out 2-3 crafting professions to be able to craft ascended gear and have around 25 gold just for the ascended recipes and thats at a minimum, you have to get the materials to craft ascended which means grinding, and you have to do fractals for the back piece and you need to either grind out dailies and monthlies for the other slots or you have to do fractals and get drops.
All that for a new player just to be on a level playing field in wvw. Also the reason why they added ascended gear in the first place was because people got exotics way too fast and there wouldnt be longevity in the game. So instead of sticking with their original plan of releasing skins to keep people interested and something to work towards they just added a new tier over a long period of time and made it a grindfest.
If i didnt want to get into dungeons and eventually fractals i would be done with the game already since champ trains are next to useless aside from… ascended gear mat farming.
I don’t understand why
Common -> Fine -> Masterwork -> Rare -> Exotic -> Legendary….
is not a gear treadmill, but..Common -> Fine -> Masterwork -> Rare -> Exotic -> Ascended -> Legendary
is a gear treadmill?Why? because it takes more than a handful of hours to get?
1) Legendary used to have identical stats to exotic, and was thus cosmetic only.
2) It was possible to get exotic items (best in slot) from basically any activity in the game, with very little repetition. Dungeonrunning, crafting, boss farming, random drops, etc.
3) Exotic didn’t require crazy amounts of time/money to acquire.
Personally I’d have preferred them to keep exotic out too, and have Rare as maximum gear tier, and have the power between rarity levels much smaller. Like 18% for blue, 19% for green, 20% for yellow. What GW1 did perfectly.
If it’s becoming harder to have fun, take a break for a while. Only not logging in will make the devs pay attention.
You are not forced to do it.
When ‘You don’t have to play.’ is the answer, it means pretty bad things for the game in question.
And you are ignoring my post.
You don’t need to have a single piece of Ascended armor in order to do lvl 50 Fractals, seeing as you can get more than enough AR from simply upgrading the infusions in your rings.
And since you claim to love fractals you shouldn’t have much issues getting more then enough infusions to upgrade them quite high without having to spend more gold than you earn.
It is generally best to ignore strawman trolling arguments. But let’s follow this bit of nonsense to it’s end anyways.
The ideal goal would be 70 AR. You make the claim that you can ‘simply’ get there just from Infused rings. So we are looking at 5 AR on each of them from standard infusions, leaving 60 to go. That means you are looking for +30 Agony Infusions. The cost for the Thermocatalytic Reagents alone for each +30 Agony Infusion is over 8 million gold. This is ignoring the cost to get over five hundred million +1 Agony Infusions.
So let’s look for something a bit less trollish and at least closer to reality. Such as full ascended trinkets, infused back and rings. From the standard +5 Infusions you can hit 30 Agony Resistance, leaving 40 to go with three Agony Infusion slots. Getting +13 Agony Infusions isn’t as absurd as +30’s at least. But you are still looking at 4,096 +1 Agony Infusions for each of them. This is far more than you can actually farm on your own, forcing you to go to the Trading Post for at least a portion of them. At 15 silver each, you are looking at 614 gold, and then another 61 and a quarter gold for the Th. Reagents needed to combine them. So 675 gold for each Agony Infusion, and you need three of them. And at the rate that FotM give gold, you are going to be at it for years before you have gathered 2k gold for this.
And now we are back to where we started. The idea of ‘Just use Agony Infusions and you don’t have to grind anything but fratals!’ is absolutely absurd. No matter how you want to break it down, Agony Resistance is a very significant barrier to entry. Which wouldn’t be a bad thing, if there were other enjoyable endgame activities to GW2. But as it stands you have tPvP, WvW, and high level Fractals of the Mist.
And it seems like there are quite a few people who looked at the situation that the OP describes here and decided that the “we don’t make grindy games” MMO that they bought into isn’t really worth grinding up to the point where they could start playing effectively.
Not a single legendary, believe it or not.
You haven’t really played Gw2 untill you crafted a legendary weapon.
Actually i think that’s exactly the reason why he doesn’t have a Legendary. Because he just played the game the way he liked the most.
@Soa : all good games come to an end.
People this days need “a reason” to play something, fun has been replaced with a shiny reward to show off to other people that probably couldn’t care less.
Old fashioned mindset like yours are a dying race and sadly the game industry have to move on to keep getting money from us.
That said, i feel you.
(edited by Yuri.5810)
I loved GW2 also. The art is top-notch in the industry and I fell in love with the world over and over again just visually. After grinding out that last ascended item I had, I realized that is all the game had come to be for me: Log in, grind, log out. My guild died, my friends left and the only social I was getting was in Map chat, which wasn’t much.
I’m more of a world-builder player anyway, so I’m really looking forward to the games coming out with building elements and housing. Before release of GW2, Anet said player housing would be implemented after release. Over a year later and it’s been pushed back to “no estimate on when” and no explanation of why. That’s my favored and preferred playstyle, so I have a feeling I won’t log into GW2 again after one of the others coming out releases – unless they finally get around to implementing housing that’s not limited to 5 people. GG.
1. Ascended crafting
It is a grind. That is a fact, especially regarding the new armor. Look in the crafting subforum if you don’t believe me, the numbers are plastered all over many posts on the topic. It’s absolutely insane. On top of that, it’s fueled this massive BLTP speculation mini-industry that has completely gated out new players (more on that later).
Now I’m sure some people will say, “Hold the phone here. That stuff’s not required, it’s completely optional, its just a 5%(?) stat boost, and you only need it for fractals!”
Maybe that first part is technically correct. But even then, a 5% boost is a 5% boost. Why should I play for so long and settle for sitting on 95%?
Also, ascended stuff has also been tossed at us from every angle since its release. Dragonite from meta bosses and WvW, empyreal from dungeons… and wvw.
Bloodstone dust. ’Nuff said.
So let’s put this in perspective, the “optional” argument. A good example of “optional”? SPvP.It’s a button, next to other buttons at the top of the screen. I don’t like PvP, but that’s just my personal preference. GW2 has so kitten much content, that button remains a mere button. There’s never a reminder, or a poke, or a shoehorn shoving SPvP in my face, aside from the section for SPvP in the patch notes. But reading those is reeeally optional, and one can easily just skip over that section anyway. Fractals was much the same way, once, where you could completely avoid that little corner of L.A. and its concerns of ascended gear and agony resistance.
Now, you want to do a dungeon? WvW? Ascended mats. Meta events? Ascended mats. The only way to completely avoid it is to do PVE or WVW while deliberately never tagging meta bosses or champions, which means missing out on the best loot, which, if we’re honest, is a primary reason for engaging in those activities. There is no option to ignore this crap, because it piles up in your collections bank, and then it piles up in your bank, and then before you know it one of your alts becomes nothing but an ill-used bloodstone dust depository. That, unless you just toss it all out-but you went through the trouble of earning it, didn’t you? It feels like a waste. That brings me to my next topic.
2. Earning rewards.
One of the major selling points of this game, for me, and my friends, was the fact that exotic gear was the top tier, and there were many ways to receive it. You could craft it, get it with karma or, best of all, dungeons. You could get it in drops but by no means did you, or should you, have relied upon that method.
The reason I call dungeons the best method is because the amount of grind was not too much, not too little- it felt just right. It’s the porridge Goldilocks would have chosen. In addition to the rewards/loot, the PUG experience was a blast. Was. I’ll get to that later, too.
This has really positive implications for new players (hence it being a selling point). Put the work in to level your character, and perhaps at the same time, put several hours in on a dungeon or two (the stat sets are shared across multiple token rewards in several cases) and you can be outfitted in the gear and weapons of your choice, and they can carry you through everything else you do. Exotics were a level of prestige, an end-point, an accomplishment. Everything beyond that was customization: appearance, colors, etc. A complete matter of personal preference. Getting to that end point, of the stat set and look you want, was extremely satisfying, and gave a sense of having earned it, and owning it.
Now, what’s the point of doing dungeons? The tokens are irrelevant; it’s about the loot and the gold now. Exotics have become so undervalued that you can buy them off the BLTP for dirt. There’s no satisfaction to running CoF and CoE for two weeks for full zerker gear (for example) when you can buy the weapons and armor on the BLTP for a gold and a half or less which, in the GW2 economy of today, is pennies.
This, especially, because ascended crafters and tradepost moguls have turned exotics to lead and crafting materials to gold. With the sense of accomplishment, and to a lesser degree prestige, blown off of exotics, what’s left?
Ascended gear. And for that, you have to grind. Given how expensive mats have gotten and are likely to remain, crafting is basically gated off from new players for a long time, far more than it was for me than I started, and for more than it is for veterans who have spent a year stockpiling stuff through passive play.
(edited by Soa Cirri.6012)
Well, didn’t take us long to get off topic, huh?
Chris, I have a lot of feelings about this because this has definitely affected my enjoyment of the game. I would say that I’m torn on the subject, and here’s why…
I Bought the Game For The Grind-Free Gearing
I play about 2-3 hours per day, but I hate farming. As a player who had played Guild Wars all the way from early-purchase, I was happy to have another game that continued with that style of easy leveling, easy gearing. For stats, at least.
All My Real Life Friends Quit Because “There’s Nothing To Do”
When GW2 came out, I had about 8-10 real life friends who got the game with me. Around October or November, when they all had exotics, they didn’t know what to do. So they left.
You Can’t Please Everybody
In theory, adding another tier of gear should have kept my friends around longer. But truthfully, once they got their Ascended gear, they probably would have left anyway. Meanwhile, I now feel the pressure to gear out 8 characters in very expensive, long-term-goal gear that isn’t supposed to be in the game. Or at least wasn’t supposed to be in the game at the time I purchased it.
Whatever You Choose, Please Make It Clear
If Ascended is the end of the treadmill, that’s fine. I can manage. Most of my toons will never have Ascended armor, but Exotic is good enough. If, however, you continue to add more vertical progression, you should make that known. I don’t want a vertical gear treadmill and I can leave and find another game.
It is your decision to make, but all I ask is that you respect the player-base enough to let us know your plans.
www.getunicorned.com / northernshiverpeaks.org
$$$
/15 chars
It may appear to look as thou this is a qq thread but it’s not my intention,
The devs look like really nice peeps and im sure they are, they just have a nice way about them and i like them, i wonder thou what actually happened with gw2.
Things from the manifesto are quite the opposite, grind for example, i am sure the devs have been asked this before but idk, why the change? what happened? was it necessary? was the manifesto a ideal to strive for but in reality not really possible?
Does anyone have any links to the devs explaining why the game isn’t like the manifesto?
Again this isn’t a qq thread, i guess they had to make these changes but id like to know why.
I started gw2 perhaps just over 6 months ago and It feels like all we do in is grind, maybe it is fine for peeps who got gw2 when it was released?
Most peeps want decent armor and weapons, this is before you consider ascended trinkets, back piece and rings, then getting infused, if you add up the time the laurels take to get these and then the infusion and mats, its quite the grind in itself.
Now we are onto ascended weapons and leveling crafting, this is costly and you have to grind like mad for the mats and gold to be able to level crafting, then you have to make said weapon.
Next its onto ascended armor, again the grind to level more crafting and again the mats and gold required and the grind that goes with it.
I don’t want to be left behind and i am sure others feel that way too, on my main character i have got all the ascended trinkets and rings infused where appropriate, as yet have no ascended weapon ( grinding for it atm)
Now we are onto ascended armor and i still have the weapon grinding, will the grind ever stop?
All this and i would like a legendary, thou i don’t see me ever getting one, i have given up any hope of ever getting one like many other peeps, as i just do not have the gold or enough hours in the day to grind for that also.
Really Devs enough with the grind, let the peeps who didn’t get gw2 on release day have a chance to catch up, will you? please, pretty please with sugar on top.
Yeah. No grind in daily gate for getting mats for Celestial gear, no grind in the ridiculous comp req’s for lvling ascended and making ascended components, no grind in getting 100k candy corn for stuff for halloween, or the wings in dragon bash….
Nope, no grind here. Moving on….
Same thing happens to me. Also when charming new pets and selecting “yes” to make them active will sometimes name the new pet with the name of the old pet.
My names for my Ranger’s pets reset whenever I switch 1 of my 2 active pets with a different 1 from my pet window.
It would be a nice idea for the future.
It’s relatively easy to do it, but I can see it being resource intensive and potentially open to vulnerabilities.
The flip side is stalkers, do people really want to have other people look at their gear and builds?
The game have been out for a while, and I think it would be nice if we got something like WoWs Armory.
When I’m idling at school or work it would be nice to at least look at my character, show her off to my friends and such
We could also use the armory function to display our characters faces as our forum avatars, which i think would be really nice.
tl;dr I think something like WoWs armory would be nice, because of reasons
Yeah, this is one of those “Shouldn’t launch without” items, that I wish some games wouldn’t even try launching without.
But so many other games do launch without it that I can’t feel surprised or disappointed. I do hope they prioritize this as a feature.
There really needs to be something in place to que up for a Dungeon rather than spamming /map for people. The game is only 3 weeks old and if people are finding it hard to get groups for a simple Dungeon run can you imagine how hard it will be 6 months from now. As massive as World of Warcraft is they even ran into this problem and created the system.