Guild Wars 2

Effective heal = Heal per second * Target Armor * (0.67*Fraction of time poisoned).

Where Armor = Defense + Toughness.

Stacking toughness is more effective than stacking healing power for keeping yourself alive , since heal coefficients barely ever breach 0.1. However, personal toughness has no effect on your heal on other targets – that is dependent on their toughness.

Thus, if looking to heal others, Cleric > Nomad, and even Cleric should be taken only on healbomb engis and symbol/virtue full heal guards. And these builds are only viable in WvW and to a far more questionable extent PvP (as condi builds screw Healing builds over by reducing effective heal by 33%, while their damage completely ignores Armor and hits Vitality directly). Nomad doesn’t heal enough to be viable over Cleric in a zerghealer scenario, and it also does less damage in that scenario. If you’re soloing you’re dead because you cannot do enough damage to take down even the glassiest full zerk ele/thief, and if you’re in a zerg you’re inferior to a full cleric build of the exact same traits. For PvE scenarios, not having PpF/pPF/PvT/CpT/Cpv means your damage output as a Nomad user is low enough that a ranger’s pet will outdamage you.

If you really must heal others, though, an optimal config will probably be a heal/condi ranger with spirit of nature, sic em and full apothecary specced on A/W SB. If you want to take damage for others in a zerg while being an off healer, the better config would probably be a Cleric based guard.

There’s no situation in which full Nomad is ever optimal. This is not to say that people using Nomad will necessarily fail, but those same people on another healvariant build will do better.

People need to understand that GW2 offers the unique opportunity for all types of players to play the game the way they feel is best.

A lot of GW2’s player base are reward oriented and as such will play whatever gets them those rewards the fastest.
You can easily see why a lot of players choose to play this way if you look at the average price of Ascended/Legendary tier gear and some of the really rare and unique skins.

A smaller fraction of the player base care more about their experience and “roleplaying” and as such aren’t so driven by rewards – usually running whatever build and gear they feel suits them and not caring much about efficiency.

People fail to realize that since all gear types can complete the content the game is actually in its least restrictive form – you don’t need x gear or x build to complete content in GW2.

Restrictions come from players – and usually derive from the fact that players want to play with like-minded individuals and will usually try to convert push away those of a non-similar thinking style.

No matter how you change the game – you won’t change human nature.

Also regarding the poster above saying World Bosses shouldn’t be on a timer – the idea is terrible.
You might think people will be tempted into creating new strategies and whatnot but since there’s literally no time limit there’s no reason not to just afk the boss while using your #1 skill.
You can literally come in – hit it a few times – then run off to do gathering or other things while other players mop it up. There’s no incentive to get it done and participate with 100% of what you can do when you can just tag and afk.

The world boss timers are actually fairly generous most times, even with long hauls like Claw of Jormag and potentially the Ulgoth. So, I don’t know if full DPS orientation is even really necessary . . . even in the Claw of Jormag, it’s somewhat more necessary to focus on getting the stuns to happen.

Ulgoth, it’s more a matter of “did the pre-events need to be done”.

I use it on a joke build for my ranger in wvw because ranger is a thief magnet. No really carry around a longbow and have a bear equipped and everyone on the map will target you while you outheal most of the damage.

Remove venom share, and buff all venoms. They are so underpowered because of this single trait.

GlowSticks.9734:

Megaservers suck, thanks for ruining farming.
I’ve yet to see one benefit of them.

Then you must not have levelled a character through events and the like after the first 4 months from release. As much as I hated the bots that were around for the first 3 months or so, once they were gone there was NO ONE doing events that were good for levelling.

Bloodtide Coast was one barren locale for probably over a year.

Berserker gear and builds are not required. They are simply what allows for the fastest clearing of most PvE content.

If you line up a bunch of different builds that excel at different things, then there is no “this is the BEST build.” There are builds that are better for different things.

In dungeons where a fairly one-dimensional AI is behind every enemy we face, certain builds become more useful, more optimal. Bosses often telegraph their hardest-hitting attacks. Now, for these fights you have two main options. You can trait and gear in vitality and toughness and take the hit. Or alternatively, you can wait until the telegraphed move starts and then hit the aegis key, or the dodge key. Since the second option has found a way to avoid the largest hits without treating or gearing for it, they are free to use builds to maximise damage instead.

This is not necessarily true in other game modes, such as PvP. In PvP there is no one-dimensional AI, but rather a team of very active players trying their best to down you as fast as possible. Here once again DPS builds are viable, but not necessarily always optimal. Many good PvP teams will include a bunker, or a decapper, or a control specialist. And every avid PvP player knows how powerful condition builds have become recently.

Here’s an example that’s not Guild Wars. Ever played the Pokemon games for the GBA or NDS? One very strong “build” for a party member is a so-called “toxic staller,” which essentially does damage over time while keeping up constant blocks and heals. It’s typically very powerful. It’s also a massive pain to play with outside of PvP. Why? Because it’s slow, and because such a defensive control build is not necessary for the PvE gameplay. In the open world and in boss fights, more damage is the way to go.

The common complaint here is that not all builds have the same usefulness in all areas of the game. Tanks, healers and damage over time builds are all viable in dungeons. Some people play them for fun, some people use them to compensate for a lack of skill or a lack of interest in active defensive gameplay. But taking into consideration all of the factors that make dungeons what they are, a straight DPS build is most certainly the best in dungeons.

This has been said, but I’ll repeat it anyway. If Anet implemented some massive changes to the game such as boosting enemy armour, giving them unblockable melee attacks, and improving AI, then perhaps straight DPS would no longer be optimal. Perhaps the number of “avoids” each player gets through dodges, blocks and blinds would no longer be enough to keep them alive. In this case, the meta might shift to ranged condition builds, the exact opposite of what it is now.

In that case, the only difference would be that ranged condition builds would have become the most efficient way to clear dungeons. Simply take all the current content that advocates “zerker” and replace it with “condi” instead. LFG speed run groups would become “80s condi 5k ap ping gear” and straight DPS builds would be kicked.

You can change the meta. But there will always be a meta because there will always be a most efficient way to clear dungeons.

Others have pointed it out: all members of the party are expected to DPS, all are expected to control and all are expected to support. How each profession goes about those things, some being better at aspects than others, do vary. But they are all there in pve.

DPS
Thief – Extremely high single target DPS, medium aoe dps
Ranger – High single target, low aoe DPS
Engineer – High AOE and single target dps supplimented by strong condition damage
Elementalist – Extremely high single target and aoe damage increased further with OP conjured weapons
Guardian – Medium single target DPS, high aoe DPS
Mesmer – Low AOE dps, extremely high single target dps
Necromancer – Low AOE dps, high single target dps supplimented by moderate condition damage
Warrior – High single target DPS and high aoe DPS

Support
Thief – Stealth, projectile absorbtion
Ranger – Extremely high offensive buffing capabilities, condition removal
Engineer – Moderate Might stacking, healing, condition removal, massive enemy debuff ability (Vulnerability)
Elementalist – Extremely high offensive buffing capabilities: conjures, Might, Fury. Moderate healing
Guardian – Extremely strong defensive buffs: Stability, condition removal, projectile defense
Mesmer – Extremely strong condition removal and projectile defense. Limited stealth and stability.
Necromancer – Moderate condition removal, strong debuffing: vulnerability stacks (note: necromancer isn’t part of the meta because this section and the next are so limited)
Warrior: Extremely strong offensive buffs: banners, Might, Fury, Empower allies. Strong debuffing: vulnerability stacks.

Control
Thief: Perma-Blinds, spammable on demand CC (headshot)
Ranger – Perma-Immobilize, cripple
Engineer – Moderate blinds, cripple, immobilize, CC, chill
Elementalist – moderate blinds and immobilize, low access to Chill
Guardian – moderate blinds, strong grouping CC, Wards
Mesmer – Extremely high CC ability, strong group CC,
Necromancer – moderate blinds
warrior: Low CC ability with dps utility skills, can swap to high control setup with utilities

If your argument is that these things don’t matter, my guess is that you probably don’t pay enough attention to what’s actually happening in the dungeons/fractals you do OR your dungeons and fractal runs are extremely poor in quality since you DONT utilize the proper support/control roles from your party.

Being the “last man standing” on your non-DPS spec is nothing to brag about, it means you made a spec to do something other than DPS (i.e. tank, heal, CC, etc.) and FAILED because your party is now dead.

“My healer build was so amazing my entire party wiped” is basically what I see people saying whenenver they say “last man standing”.

Nerelith.7360:

The big problem is, that the game rewards certain builds..Mostly DPS, while punishing others…Things like Damage over time builds.

how does the game reward DPS and punish anything else? thats nothing more then player perception. You can push through any dungeon even with 5 Necros I have no doubt about it. There is no punishment going on anywhere.

Nerelith.7360:

Why would any group take a necro into a dungeon?

Anet gave us necros, Now you can say " you can be free to play a necromancer" and fact is, I play a necromancer, but Only because I like to play either solo, or duo with my wife. But is it the community’s fault that zerker groups will not take a necromancer into a dungeon if any other prefered class is available?
My point is that you are 100 % right.

Ultimately yes. my main is a necro and I did plenty of dungeons never had an issue.

Nerelith.7360:

You are free to play any way you wish with any tools you wish. But if the tools you choose are considered sub-optimal by the rest of the community don’t blame the community for kicking you.

Then who do you blame? There will always be optimal and sub-optimal. Its true in every game. In games that force the trinity do you think a healer is more optimal then a dps?, the dps is still optimal but the game forces the existence of healers by removing survivability tools off dps. 3 dps a tank and a healer is still sub-optimal but just cause they’re forced at gun point people are entirely happy with the setup. Now comes a game which doesnt press a gun to anyone’s head and suddenly only optimal is allowed. Since when is not being restrictive a design flaw?

Nerelith.7360:

If Anet makes Damage over time, less preferable, you are perfectly free to specc as damage over time, to wear vitality or toughness gear…to specc heals, and tanks…

snip..

the community is free not to carry me? carry me? do you think a necro cannot pull his own weight? cause I assure you plenty of times when actually my necro was the last man standing. For a statement such as the community is free not to carry you dungeons would need to be balanced around maximum dps and they most certainly arent. 5 necros can complete a dungeon just fine.

Nerelith.7360:

let’s try a mind experiment. Imagine that Anet introduced two changes. Not saying I want these changes, but let’s introduce a few changs to encounters, and see what the " community" decides.

make it so Bosses are weak to damage over time effects but have MORE armor so that direct damage is less effective and… improve AI, so that they do not stack. Also…add a few More healers that are smart enough to not rush into the front line, Instead stay behind healing everyone else.

Suddenly…. damage over time becomes something to consider. Suddenly… pure DPS builds become less prefered.

It may be an interesting experiment but i bet it will not change anything because this is mostly a perception issue.

Nerelith.7360:

You can’t let anet off the hook, the reason that Pure DPS is the meta is because that is how Anet designed the game.

I disagree… DPS is the natural ideal state and to deviate from that you need artificial barriers that force you to choose an alternative state which is bad.

Nerelith.7360:

Fact..Most Power players Live in a skinner box. They will chase after an " optimum build" but what makes a build Optimum? it is best able to face the encounters the developer designs….

Who decides how Mobs act and react? The developer. So…who decides what is meta? Not the community….. the developer.

Its not about mobs actions and reactions at all.
Do mobs not inflict conditions? so why are condition cleansing builds useless?
Do mobs not inflict damage? then why is healing useless?
Do mobs not fall into melee range to attack? then why is crowd control useless?

Like I said its about not putting up barriers.
Conditions arent something only a healer can deal with.
Damage isnt something only a healer can heal.
Some progressions and some roles do it better but thats about it.
The way is see it is this isnt that different from zerging.

Zerging is technically the most optimal way to play. Makes encounters easy and gives you the fastest kill. But this is a game not a job, having fun should be more important then making the most gold in the least amount of time possible.

Nerelith.7360:

The best tank, and heal tools in the game mean nothing, if encounters can be DPS’d.

Zerker or gtfo is the meta because Anet decided it was the meta by designing encounters as they are designed.

or because players value rewards over fun

Nerelith.7360:

I for one think that it could and should be less this, and More diverse. I would Like to see less reliance on dps and More support, and control… but….

Support, control and dps are not mutually exclusive in this game. I dont think any of you understand what you are asking for. You are basically asking for harder content. Content which requires a bit more planning and awareness. Content which makes you take cleanses and use interrupts. We already do this in many encounters to increase efficiency. And heres the kicker. We use this support and control on classes that are in berserker gear and have mostly dps orientated traits. This is because your stats have no impact on cleanses, utility and cc. And thats a good thing.

So you want harder content that forces players to think about control and support more? Sure, Id like that aswell. But then ive seen people complain about the difficulty of some really easy new encounters in the LS. So are you sure you want harder content? Those of us who understand the game will continue to support and control in dps gear and most of you will carry on complaining that theres no support or control or that the new encounters are too hard.

Making stuff require control and support wont stop the berserker meta. Deal with it.

A lot of you are missing the point in this thread.

Sure, people can wear whatever stats they want, but it’s not going to be efficient, and it’s going to waste people’s time.

And that’s the real problem here. People value their time. They want the most efficient group that will clear dungeons fast. They do not want a group member that will be a hinderance to the overall dungeon run.

It’s easy to say, “then just find another group”, but the reality is, that you’ll be in the minority of most meta-dungeon runners. You will be the person that isn’t contributing to the group efficiently, because you want to be stubborn, or out of ignorance, and use sub-optimal gear, traits, and builds.

I’ll use an example from WoW (since most people are familiar with it).

Let’s say a Paladin specs into the DPS role Retribution, a Druid in a Feral dps spec, and 3 other DPS classes. Would you ever run with this group into a heroic dungeon? The answer is no. There wouldn’t be a tank or a healer. Sure, this group could eventually complete the dungeon if they were good at their classes, but it would be slower, and less efficient. The druid would have to use sub-par healing skills, to keep people alive, and then his DPS feral spec would’ve been utterly useless to bring in the first place. This is what some of you arguing for. It’s silly. No sane group would want you.

This is the same with GW2. Why bring other roles, when it’s not needed? The encounters aren’t designed with them in mind. The encounters become standard for stacking and zerging, with condition caps, whether it was intentional or not. Most devastating encounters can also be avoided by dodging, which in effect, makes other roles, that can block and shield the group, pretty much useless.

If you’re not doing DPS, inexperienced at your class, and not being self-reliant on your survival.. then you’re not contributing to the group that wants to finish the dungeon for the 100th run.

If the encounters actually needed support roles, then they would be just as desired as DPS roles, but they don’t. DPS is the desired, and preferred, role.

Mortifer.2946:

I usually run with pugs, and my build is something what keeps everyone alive even if someone lacks the skill. I keep explaining the tactics to everyone and my runs are very smooth, without downed or dead players. I don’t run arah too much because it is long and I need my guild group for it. Yet, I have no problems with lupicus.

I and many other player who happen to use Berserker gear take the time to explain strategies when doing certain dungeon runs. Though I’ve always been very cautious about this, as many people can potentially take it as “that person is super bossy”. If anything, I’ll usually ask if anyone is new or wants the tactics explained, or I’ll even ask, “how would you guys like to do this fight?”

But I would like to make an honest suggestion. If you feel you’re a really experienced player, go and PUG Arah. I do know of a charr guardian in PVT that takes newbies through Arah here in NA, so it’s certainly possible to carry people through it. If you’re taking newbies through Arah, don’t think that your PVT will save them every single second through, and especially not on Lupi.

Mortifer.2946:

IYes I don’t like you, zerkers. Because it was you, the players who destroyed the sense of cooperation in this game, not Anet. You spoilt the game system and overcome everything by doing 10000000000000000 dmg in 1 sec and learnt to dodge 2 or three times before you kill the boss.
When I started playing this game on launch, it was about helping each other, about diversity, about tactics.

Now it is about you.

No. The blame lies with each and every single person who fails to live and let live, regardless of gear type worn. For every person who has failed to write an adequate lfg comment, for every person who has failed to respect another person’s lfg comment and joined regardless of the requirement.

Serbianwolf.1652:

Tree.3916:

Mortifer.2946:

Tree.3916:

snip

It makes dozen stat combinations useless. – That’s what bugs me.

Gear doesn’t determine your role or your playstyle. Gear is simply where you fall on the axis of tanky – glassy and another axis of direct damage – condition damage.

Those stat combinations are not useless, btw. For starters they all have a use in pvp and wvw at a minimum. Secondly, newer players who don’t know the bosses and don’t know how to time dodges benefit greatly from tankier gear sets, or gear sets that have high sustain. For the purposes of providing a margin of error to newer players, the wide variety of gear sets works exactly as intended.

If you’re upset that extremely experienced players who know all the encounters don’t need to wear tanky gear that’s just carebear, no offense. If you care about what’s best/optimal play whats best. If you care about an RP adventure where your character is a reflection of the story you have for him/her in your head and tanky gear is part of that… well don’t complain when that isn’t optimal for people who care about what’s best.

False! Try to dodge and counter strong AoE! Even dodge won’t save you. As he said, most of gear sets are useless and this is sad truth.

What are you talking about? Dodging works for “strong aoe” too. And I spent a good portion of my post explaining how the gearsets aren’t useless at all, so if you have a response to that please making it factual rather than repeating a discredited statement with italics as if that makes it less discredited.

You do realize that groups of all zerker gear sets do have to cooperate or things can go bad quickly?

They stack, which means they have to pick a spot to stack. They like pushing things into corners, most rooms have more than one corner so a corner has to be picked. Not everyone needs to be the might stacker so someone may have to make some adjustments to better suit the group…

Someone goes down because they don’t watch their health bar or didn’t catch the attack animation in time to dodge or put up a skill, there goes 1/5 of the DPS. 2/5 while he’s being rezzed and he has a higher chance of being killed due to aggro mechanics. Not to mention the person rezzing does as well since they can’t heal or dodge or use a blocking skill while rezzing. And if it was a skill he forgot to pull up, it could be more than one person having gone down if it was a spell that would affect the group.

Zerkers are glass cannons typically. Meaning they hit hard, but they aren’t that great at taking hits. Meaning if they aren’t careful, they’re dead. Especially if they are a squishier class like the Elementalist.

So to claim that zerker killed cooperation is just silly.

I think PART of the problem here is in the thread title; players who are still insistent on a “role.”

That’s simply not how the game was designed. You are expected to do damage, AND provide boons, AND provide control as the situation warrants. If you aren’t doing all three, you are not maximizing your character’s potential.

Secondly, the gear you wear (regardless of its prefix), really isn’t optimal across the board. Go ahead and take your ‘zerker gear into a PvP match. You will most likely get ’rektd’, and very possibly by the condition damage over time scorned upon by the PvE community.

WvW is a LITTLE more forgiving, but even then, ’zerker gear is not optimal, and even builds without SOME points down the vit and toughness lines are more likely going to be regarded as “lunch” as opposed to this unstoppable force of nature.

The “problem” is that in PvE content, especially in the open world, you can overwhelm content with sheer numbers, and those numbers quickly make boons fairly irrelevant and generates so many stacks of Defiant that control is nigh entirely worthless. That IS a design issue, but it really is a very narrow one in what amounts to a pretty small amount of the content… but its one that a LOT of people zerg towards. It probably does need to change, somehow, though such “trains” also seem very popular, and they tend to get angry when they are changed even superficially.

In dungeons/fractals, there is one established “experienced” meta… which sad to say folks, is NOT unusual for ANY MMO. The meta is always going to be pretty narrow, and it’s not simply a matter of “changing the AI or the stats.”

If you could magically solve all the server problems with condition caps, jack up mob armor to over 9000, scale condition damage even higher, and give the mobs attacks that you need toughness to survive, the only thing that would happen is “zerker or GTFO” would become “rabid or GTFO.”

We, as players, REALLY need to stop railing against the min-maxers like they are some overwhelming force. Because they will ALWAYS exist, and if there is any way to squeeze out just a little more raw numbers in a game, the “hardcore” players (and pretenders) WILL find it, and they WILL insist on it if you are to group with them.

Whether you like it or hate it… you might as well be kittening into the wind.

Mortifer.2946:

Tree.3916:

snip

It makes dozen stat combinations useless. – That’s what bugs me.

Gear doesn’t determine your role or your playstyle. Gear is simply where you fall on the axis of tanky – glassy and another axis of direct damage – condition damage.

Those stat combinations are not useless, btw. For starters they all have a use in pvp and wvw at a minimum. Secondly, newer players who don’t know the bosses and don’t know how to time dodges benefit greatly from tankier gear sets, or gear sets that have high sustain. For the purposes of providing a margin of error to newer players, the wide variety of gear sets works exactly as intended.

If you’re upset that extremely experienced players who know all the encounters don’t need to wear tanky gear that’s just carebear, no offense. If you care about what’s best/optimal play whats best. If you care about an RP adventure where your character is a reflection of the story you have for him/her in your head and tanky gear is part of that… well don’t complain when that isn’t optimal for people who care about what’s best.

I’m pretty sure in GW1 speed clears, guilds used to just ball up all of the mobs and just burn them down.

First off maha you missed my point entirely. The meta is the meta because it is what Anet decided it should be. If they wanted the meta to be other than what it is, they would make different choices when encountering designs.

Robert Hrouda once said a long time ago I believe that if you’re unfamiliar with content you’ll want some defenses, but that (this is before offensive dps teams were even a thing) if you get good at it you can run a glass cannon spec. So yes, being able to clear content with glass cannons is intended. This is not a bad thing, it just means that as you learn the game you can perform content with less and less passive defenses and you’re not forced to take them.

The problem is.. that while they may have promised the Trinity of damage, Control, and Support…. somewhere along the line they DID provide the tools for them….Just Not the NEED for them.

Support is used when granting might, fury, aegis, protection, reflection, etc. and control is used with LoSing mobs, grouping them together, pushing them. DPS is DPS. I don’t think people realise how fully realised the anet pseudo-trinity is, it works every single time you do a dungeon.

The big problem is, that the game rewards certain builds..Mostly DPS, while punishing others…Things like Damage over time builds.

Hardly. DoT builds can still clear content, they aren’t punished.

make it so Bosses are weak to damage over time effects but have MORE armor so that direct damage is less effective

Lupicus and the Bersekrer Abomination have ~3,450 armour. Most DPS calculations are created assuming a boss of 2,600 armour – heavier armour targets exist – but Berserker is still preferred. Make the armour too heavy and you just end up with a group taking four berserker players and then the warrior just switches to conditions since they’ll cap bleeds, burn and do some torment all single-handedly.

improve AI, so that they do not stack. Also…add a few More healers that are smart enough to not rush into the front line, Instead stay behind healing everyone else.

How do you “improve the AI so they do not stack”? Like, in a practical sense how do you code that? I’m actually curious. And there are healers in the game, they don’t rush, players just approach them.

Suddenly…. damage over time becomes something to consider. Suddenly… pure DPS builds become less prefered.

Nope.

Zerker or gtfo is the meta because Anet decided it was the meta by designing encounters as they are designed.

every every every every every every every every every

EVERY

EVERY

EVERY

EVERY

single game with combat in all of history has a meta that develops to the point that you take the lowest amount of defenses as possible and maximise your offence. Whether this means dropping a healer, having a DPS perform as off-tank rather than a fully dedicated one, or just maintaining trinity roles but having each player do with the bare minimum of defensively attributed gear possible, it happens. In Dragon Age you have tanks, healers, DPS. People soon realised if you just stacked mages you could absolutely obliterate everything in front of you – and mages could also spec in to healing (or just use healing potions). Since their DPS was so high you didn’t need a tank to hold aggro when you could just make everything explode with incredible speed.

@Lil Puppy:This. We’ve said this numerous times as well as other things mentioned above.

Here’s the ultimate breakdown…

The Three Tenets of the DPS Meta:
1)We kill things fast because we can.
Damage grows exponentially the more you build for it.
2)We don’t slow down because we don’t need to.
Everyone has a self-heal, dodges, and damage mitigation.
3)#1+#2=More Loots
In a game all about having expensive, flashy cosmetics, random loot tables suck.
Getting more ‘crap loot’ is better than getting less ‘crap loot’.

There you have it folks. That’s it.

“First you kill all the bosses, then you get all the loots, and then you get all the power!”
-Scarface (sort of)

Serbianwolf.1652:

Knighthonor.4061:

Will Anet ever make Non-DPS role important?

I want to be able to play the group PvE dungeons without the retaliation of the community for not specing for pure damage.

I would like the option to play more roles than just damage in this game.

Me too and I totally agree with you. Feels like ANET made only zerk build to take for everything.

Maybe(JUST MAYBE, doesn’t mean Im right) solution could be to buff and strengthen more mobs so people cant go with zerk everywhere

‘Zerk’ isn’t a build. It’s a stat combination. The ‘variety’ you seek (for PvE anyway), that has obviously eluded you comes from weaponsets, utility skills, traits, sigils, runesets, etc. Find 20 ‘Zerker builds’ of ANY profession and gear stats will be the only thing that is the same in 90% of the people you run across. Asking for DPS doesn’t necessarily mean “must be 100% [This] Meta build”. There are DPs concecration guards, dps shout guards, DPs staff eles, DPs might stacking eles, DPs Phalanx warriors, DPs Axe warriors, etc, etc, etc. Most of them will run their builds differently b/c people are different, but we ALL understand that you can’t tank or heal a boss to death. Since ‘support’ comes from skills and traits and has almost nothing to do with stats, why wouldn’t we put those stats to their most efficient use?

Suggesting that ‘zerkers are kittens’ because they want/don’t allow (implied:alienate) certain people in their group is a valid opinion. However, suggesting the Devs should ‘do away with these zerkers’ by alienating them and forcing others into their groups is simply ridiculous and a hipocracy.

Your post and your Sig share a similar bit of irony. “Nothing is real” is an absolute statement about there not being any absolutes. “Everything is permitted” is a completely subjective statement that requires blind belief for it to have any merit. O.o See where I’m going with this? It’s not a paradigm-shattering bit of profound thought, but rather a bit of self-contradicting nonsense.

I Play How I Want!!

nexxe.7081:

DigitalKirin.9714:

ANet provides the tools. The community provides the demand.

Not necessarily.

There is only demand because of the way the encounters are designed. If they made the encounters that demanded other playstyles, then you would see a variety of builds and other gear sets being used.

Anet doesn’t see zerging and stacking as a problem though. They tried to change it with the revamped Teq encounter, and the Triple Wurm encounter, but overall, the dungeons haven’t been changed, and neither has the open-world zerging. This is why GW2’s PVE encounters are considered a joke in the MMO world. It’s a harsh thing to say, but it’s the truth.

I agree. You can say " Anet provides the tools, but the community doesn’t demand it." but…if Anet designs encounters so that certain tools are unecessary, it doesn’t matter.

The community demand is inextricably entwined to encounter design.

Imagine I have the snake venom anti-toxin In the world, and it’s the cheapest. TRhen I decide to go to the ONE place In the world with zero poisonous snakes. I could offer them for 5 cents, No one there would buy them, because they are not necessary there.

The ONLY person that might is someone that would then take my 5 cent snake anti-venom, and sell it where there are many…Like the amazon…

Ok.. the Point. You cannot blame on " The community" what is basically a game design fault. If some Builds are desired while others are not, it is because there are many encounters where desired builds are helpful…while undesired builds are not.

You put the cart before the horse. The devs can give all of us the best anti-snake venom ointment, what good is it, if they forgot to put the snakes in the game?

Mortifer.2946:

Yesterday I saw some guild recruitment where it was claimed that they look for experienced dungeon/fractal runners. I consider myself such player, yet I was not accepted, because I’ve built my guardian on soldier stats and condi removing runes/traits which is very useful for the whole party, yet it lack some DPS so I was told GL BB

It is their perogative – as it is their guild – who they’d like to invite. They wanted to play with players of likeminded attitudes. To be honest, they probably did themselves as well as you a favor.

It is merely your ego that’s got you fired up because you feel someone’s taken a potshot at your “experienced” status. My suggestion is to let it go. It really is no skin off your nose if you failed to get into that guild.

However. I do have a question for you. If you Do feel that you’re quite experienced at Dungeons/Fractals, then you’d be able to do feats that most people would consider “experienced” only, yes? Like solo Lupicus in Arah. Or run full melee 49/50 fractals. Okay, now do it all in zerk gear. If you truly know how a fight works, then you ought to be able to do it in zerk gear, yes? Because if you know how each attack works, you’d be able to nullify the damage with just the perfect dodge or block. Anyone can stand in one spot and get hit while wearing tanky gear. Not everyone can complete a fight with nary a scratch on them.

Mortifer.2946:

Those zerkers are just dumb. Sorry, but they do.

Are you the quintessential PVT “tank” guardian? Because with grammar like this…

Mortifer.2946:

The most fun is when I see them play open world and some champ insta-down them. Most of them don’t even try to dodge. Thousand Blades rulezzzz, I guess.

I have a dirty secret. I rarely join “zerker only, must be meta” Arah runs. I PUG Arah, and there are times when the dice roll and you get that bowbear ranger, or the PVT or Cleric staffguard. I always make sure to be friendly. I have yet to be kicked from a PUG Arah.

The most fun is when I see Lupicus absolutely destroy them because they’ve never challenged themselves to learn their class or the fight. Most of them don’t even know when to dodge, because dodging’s never been that important to them. I do my due diligence and attempt a res if they’re right at lupi’s feet. But usually I’m soloing lupi before phase 2 ends. That is the most fun.

Mortifer.2946:

Yesterday I saw some guild recruitment where it was claimed that they look for experienced dungeon/fractal runners. I consider myself such player, yet I was not accepted, because I’ve built my guardian on soldier stats and condi removing runes/traits which is very useful for the whole party, yet it lack some DPS so I was told GL BB

Those zerkers are just dumb. Sorry, but they do. The most fun is when I see them play open world and some champ insta-down them. Most of them don’t even try to dodge. Thousand Blades rulezzzz, I guess.

You aren’t experienced in dungeons/fractals if you believe that an extremely inefficient stat combo + rune type + trait allocation is “very useful” yet shrug off the fact that you “lack some DPS” and justify it because you’ve seen people die in open world.

People aren’t dumb for denying you because they know very well that no one who knows how to play most effectively would willingly hinder themselves to such a degree unless it was purely for the sake of trolling people.

When you know what to do in an encounter, it can be done in full DPS-oriented builds. This is why experienced players don’t want to have anything to do with people that play on a suboptimal level. To them it’s really annoying and spoils their fun.

Maybe instead of mocking them you should try to play with players that share a similar mentality to yours and like to take things slowly with low DPS, as it’s apparently what you like.

Obtena.7952:

I’ve been wondering this for a long time. Decided to get others opinions on it.

Translation: when I post this gibberish in the dungeon subforum I get mocked so I’ll try again here. Hopefully a different group of people will give me the self-justification I feel I deserve.

Are there other games out there where a subset of players insist on making others play a specific way to the aggressive degree we experience it here in GW2?

Any game with gear progression / instanced content will have this. GW2 is one of the most pug friendly MMOs ever. The community in GW2 is pug friendly. Provided you can read the LFG description or write your own you will be able to find a group of whatever standard you desire.

I’ve played other lesser known games (not WoW) but I’ve never seen it to the degree where people are kicked from groups. Do other games have this that I’m just not familiar with? Perhaps it’s more common than I think? Why do we have this phenomenon?

Why do people kick? Because some people don’t read LFG. Some people have bad attitudes. Some people simply play so poorly that they bring the group down. A very small percent are kicked over trifling reasons and a shame that truly is, but it isn’t worth the ink spilt over it.

I would have thought that the lack of trinity, method of loot distribution and non-competitive aspect of PVE would encourage the complete opposite. Boy, is that wrong.

Let me help you understand. Money and time are interchangeable. If you have a lot of money, you can trade it for free time. If you have a ton of free time you can trade it for money. Everyone values their free time in some way. If my job asked me to work overtime on Saturday for some reason, I would expect additional compensation, because I value my free time on Saturday far more than my standard billing rate. Some people who work a minimum wage job or who have endless free time probably value their free time significantly less than I, or others. There are no doubt people who value their free time greater than I do.

So what’s the point? the point is, free time is a precious commodity and few people value it so little that they want to spend it with griefers, whether intentionally or not. Few want to spend it having frustrating, hair pulling experiences with people who clearly don’t give a single care about the grief and frustration their laziness or “creativity” makes. In the end, people don’t want their time wasted.

A: When do they say all world leaders have great knowledge about all the dragons?

Infact, I think the point in the Norn and Charr parts is basically informing them about how they could very easily be at risk.

B: WE ARE A SINGLE PERSON. You expect us to see every tiny thing? Every scout? Order of Whispers are VERY good at being unseen when they want to be. As a single person, in a lore standpoint, we’d see what’s directly around us. We wouldn’t know if the Pact sent an airship over the falls (they very well could’ve!). We wouldn’t know if Trahearne sent a series of scouts across the Maguuma wastes region…

Moving armies takes TIME. If Trahearne was mobilizing the Pact to march toward the wastes, it wouldn’t be instant travel and done deal.

Also the very, very clear fact that sometimes in universe time does NOT MATCH REAL TIME. Battle for LA (including Escape) did not take months. Those events happened a single time. Marionette fight? Didn’t last two weeks, it happened a single time.

Episode 2 could’ve easily been within days of episode 1. Episode 3 possibly a week from episode 2.

Recall for example, we went into Dry Top investigating strange things and a bandit smuggling operation. We walked into Dry top as the Sanctum crashed. We had no idea the Sanctum was overhead (in character), or that it was sabotaged and crashing. We literally walked into the event. So how would we know if there isn’t a Pact airship over the falls?

Let’s say the pact was still in rebuilding/organizing/stand by mode when Episode 1 happens (which doesn’t clearly have any dragon hints at all, it’s just some vines at that point). Episode 2 happens, suddenly the vines strike out (we’ll assume a few days after episode 1 in this situation). Pact suddenly is alerted to this because of Concordia.

Then we have.. probably a week before episode 3 events in this situation/assumption.

So going with… 2-3 weeks, based out of Fort Trinity (Pact HQ remember?) Scouts could still be on the field, or just now reporting back.

“Plans” could mean simply large scale troop movements. Not “We are planning to scout.” People here like to think it’s easy to instantly move entire armies and their supplies, siege weapons, support lines, etc… it’s not.

DarcShriek.5829:

All the leaders are targeted. The purpose of the summit is to get all the leaders in one location. Once the summit starts, the grove will be attacked by giant red thorn vines.

… This just made me actually think. The logic behind the main character and Destiny’s Edge 2.0 is…

“Boss! They are targetting world leaders, and we do not know which!”
“Quickly! Gather all of them in a single place with minimal reinforcement!”

Polearms please!
Go shadow scythe mode for necromancer
Maybe an interesting mixed range/melee javelin technique for ranger
Hardcore halberd style for warrior
Something defensive for guardian (I really want 1-handed polearm with shield) with good offensive utility
A thief could wield it like a quarterstaff (kind of kills the dual wielding concept, but so does shortbow)

Honestly, I just want the first two lines above all else! XD