R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.
It seems unlikely than Norn spirits (especially the more esoteric spirits, like the wurm spirit) or Ranger spirits ever had any connection to the living.
I agree with you, but either way they are distinct from the undead, which is the important point.
Concerning wraiths- in both Guild Wars 1 and 2, the only parts of their “bodies” to have a distinct form appear to be physical matter, specifically a skull and skeletal hands. The “ethereal” bits are just a shapeless mass of energy contained within a robe. When contrasted with ghosts and spirits, who with the exception of shades are both fully ethereal and possess a form, I would venture that wraiths are actually corporeal undead- that is, partial skeletons twisted and reanimated and held together with general necrotic energy, unrelated to ghosts.
R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.
(edited by Aaron Ansari.1604)
The traits kinda lead you on to believing that they would be vampiric.
What are your thoughts?
Vampiric? Yes. Vampires? No.
Necros have always had vampiric this and vampiric that, usually describing blood magic spells that transferred health directly from the target to the caster. But the actual vampires of Tyria are nothing like that- they’re radically inhuman creatures, sharing models with certain incubus (the precursors to GW2’s bats) and gaki, whose sole skill is a suicide attack, and besides they’re native solely to a single spot in Cantha.
R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.
The minions may simply be repeating the name of their master that they learnt before they were corrupted. It doesn’t mean that the dragons have adopted that name.
There are cases in SoS where sailors who died in the Rise of Orr referred to Zhaitan as Zhaitan, so the name definitely comes with the corruption. Rather the dragons named themselves, or took the names given them by one of the earliest races they destroyed, is an open question, and unlikely to be answered imo.
R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.
Right, forgot about her. Mind, the quaggans’ recounting of history is extremely frustrating… but that’s a subject for another thread.
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It only went over Primordus, Jormag, Zhaitan, and Kralkatorrik.
Text on the wiki:http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Elder_Dragons
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I’d have to find the book, but I recall one mentioning a “rumored dragon” in the sea.
They might not know about ‘bubbles’ directly, but they know at least one more dragon is out there (post mordi waking up).
You’re probably remembering the Movement of the World- to the best of my knowledge, it’s the only source that mentions Bubbles. The problem is, while it was originally presented as an in-universe document, it was from early pre-release and several parts of it have changed. We now have to either accept that and see it as an out-of-universe, slightly unreliable guideline, or else say that the greatest historian of the Priory is confused on the sequence of world-shaking catastrophes that had profound implications for his order.
R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.
And it is likely that the Krytan Ambassador made his offer to Ascalon on behalf of his masters the Mursaat, so that they could look for the Chosen among the Ascalonians… the instincts of Adelbern were most likely correct.
While it seems reasonable in retrospect, we’re working on information that Adelbern didn’t have at the time. His thoughts weren’t “I know his gods want to kill my people”; they were “He’s Krytan, therefore, he is the enemy”. I agree that GW2 did alter his character to make the charr easier to sympathize with, but it was no great departure from what we saw in the first game.
R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.
SOME people know about DSD, or suspect it. However few in the public do.
An npc in the priory explicitly goes “Five races vs 6 dragons…”
That does not mean that they know anything about Bubbles or Mordremoth beyond “at one point there were two more dragons”. Their source merely states that the jotun recorded six dragons during the last rise. It wouldn’t necessarily say that one was out in the ocean, or that it had water-based minions.
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https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/lore/lore/Kindly-Krait/
TL;DR: The general consensus seems to be that they’re a programing error.
R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.
Im pretty sure that comment was specifically in regards to the Shatterer, and not lieutenants in general.
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We could call Zhaitan the Elder Dragon of Zombification(decayed Undeath) since it does seem to be his portfollio(all Risen are Zombies).
A pity there are no other(known) types of Undeath Elder Dragons since I would love to see an Elder Dragon of Skeletonification(reduces people to skeletons) and an Elder Dragon of Disease(creates Afflicted ripoffs).
We definatly don’t want a Halloween Elder Dragon(how would such a thing come into existance? Mad King Thorn getting his hands on Zhaitan’s corpse, modifying and reanimating it for his purposes?).
Sounds like a bunch of overlap to me. And undead of any stripe feel like cliched enemies by this point.
R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.
They do leave it an open question rather Adelbern seriously believed there was a threat or if it was just a pretext to remove a segment of his army that was being too friendly with the Krytans. If there was a threat, I suspect he meant the charr force poised to menace Ascalon’s undefended flank. I seriously doubt that he meant anything that’s happened now, over two centuries later.
Alternatively, there is evidence that a scrapped Guild Wars: Beyond plot involved our characters trying to kill Glint. It could be that Adelbern’s predictions were originally intended to be the plot bridge to lead into that.
Side note: I sincerely doubt any of the existing architecture was part of the original mining town, especially given how closely it matches Rurikton and the Ascalon Settlement, other examples of contemporary Ascalonian architecture. From the Ebon Vanguard’s standpoint, it would have made much more sense to tear it all down and use the salvageable materials to help build properly defensible structures.
R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.
(edited by Aaron Ansari.1604)
Eh… depends on how you define the term. But getting bogged down on the issue isn’t worth it. Regardless of rather you use ‘undead’ to describe Risen or not, they’re still plainly distinct from Khilbron’s and Joko’s armies. Risen are dragon minions that happen to be (/look like, if you can’t let the point slide) zombies, whereas the undead from Guild Wars 1 were essentially just people/soldiers that happened to be dead. Their origins and nature are sufficient to make them meaningfully different, which is Konig’s point once you get through the semantics.
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To elaborate a bit on 1, we saw seven in 1079, and killed them all. The last time a mursaat was seen and left the encounter alive was a year before, in 1078- to our knowledge, at that time and this, that one is the only survivor of the race.
R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.
Actually, that the Zephyrites made it to the body at all is proof that Kralkatorrik is no longer in the area. Where he went is a subject for debate, but it’s clear that he left the area of the Dragonbrand. As for how the Zephyrites get around- their city flies. That enables them to bypass what would be impenetrable resistance for us walkers.
Oh, and everyone knows how to get to the desert- what you’re thinking of is it being said that the Order are the only ones able to reach Elona, which is not necessarily true, and would not necessarily mean crossing the desert, but I digress. Just about anyone could enter the Crystal Desert until it was very recently blocked by the Queen’s orders, and Glint died in the northern part that’s the easiest to reach from Tyria.
R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.
No, not in the story, it was a dev interview- maybe the TowerTalk one. Eir herself might have mentioned it in one of the instances too.
EDIT: “I was young and eager to prove myself.” source I believe the interview expanded on that line, but to be honest I don’t feel like listening through the whole thing to double-check.
R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.
(edited by Aaron Ansari.1604)
Jennah is said to be the last Krytan royal heir, so I doubt that Anise is her sister. There’d be no reason to hide this information unless Anise is an illegitimate heir.
Wasnt there a maybe other? The OoW guy says so in the Human PS at some point.
He insinuates that there is (“She’s the last of the royal line!” “Perhaps not the last…”), but knowing the Order of Whispers that could easily mean some commoner descended from some long forgotten younger brother a hundred years back, or just an oblique statement to make the Order seem to know more than it does. It doesn’t seem enough to support a theory that Anise is Jennah’s sister.
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Charr and Norn can get pretty old and be combat fit.
Eir IIRC, is ‘old’ by destiny’s edge.
I’m not so sure about Eir. I remember it being said during F&F that Braham’s father sent Eir away after he was born because she was too young to be tied down to a family yet. Braham’s only in his teens, so that would still leave Eir somewhat shy of old.
R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.
On the other hand, though, the accounts of the wars that followed the unsealing of the bloodstone, while not very substantial, and drawn largely from a source of dubious report, still likely contain a grain of truth. Considering that, rather magic eventually levels out or not is a moot point; that threshold would still be above what the races would need to destroy themselves. Granted, there are still possibilities that would avert such a disaster: if a dead dragon doesn’t leak magic like a hibernating one, for instance, or Konig’s example of dragons being necessary to replace spent magic, or if by the time such power is available every race across Tyria has reached such a utopian society that magic would never again be used in warfare. Still, I think the idea of too much magic being a bad thing has some degree of support to it, enough to put it a half-step above the theory that nothing would happen.
R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.
(edited by Aaron Ansari.1604)
I find it weird that berserk quaggans are never mentioned as turning on anyone. Do you think that’s something that changed in development, or are all friendly quaggan warriors just considered supernaturally strong-willed? Maybe it was never more than a myth that sprung up around a taboo practice?
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Possibly, but I’m going to stress your ‘may be’ and compare it to my ‘may only be’. We just don’t know enough to be sure of the relation, and I find it highly suspect that the phenomena of possession is only seen in the shadow fiends where there is reasonable doubt as to their exact nature, and not any of the free shades.
As for the demons, I included ill intent in the definition because it was included in the original definition, and while the inclusion of imps makes it clear the term has degraded to some degree into a more general sense, it’s never been communicated, explicitly or implicitly, that the malevolence clause doesn’t still hold. If a more kindly sort of being with similar properties came to be widely known, I greatly doubt the Tyrians would call them a demon. I will point out that I’m only disagreeing with you on semantics here- I don’t deny that demons, Razah, and the artificially formed creatures of the Fractals all share a basic nature.
R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.
As far as the spirits go, by their reference to Dragon Age, I assume Big Tower is speaking in the sense of supernatural entities from other planes (or, in this case, the Mists), and not the souls of deceased mortals. That kind of spirit we know a lot less about than ghosts and the like, and broadly speaking can be broken down into two categories: demons and related, less maleficent sorts (i.e. Razah), who are never seen to possess others and likely cannot on account of having a corporeal form, and nightmares, which, while also never seen to possess someone (see below), are also much more mysterious, having had practically no lore expounded on in Guild Wars 1 and not even mentioned by name in GW2. Therefore, I am much less comfortable speculating on what they can or cannot do.
So, for my answer to your questions:
1. It’s never been seen before (in addition to the other shortcomings of Bria’s methods that others have mentioned, her shadow fiends are also necromancer minions, and so I hesitate to classify them as nightmares, as they may only be as comparable to other spirits in the way bone minions are to other beings of flesh and blood), but I’d stop short of saying that it’s impossible, and would speculate that if it did happen it’d be done by a member of the nightmare family (the nightmares and vaettir of GW1, and probably also the aatxe, shades, and shadow behemoth that GW2 players will find more familiar… and just maybe, by extension, also the shadow fiends such as Bria uses).
2. It depends on how you define spirits, but the examples I listed above would most likely fall under that category, and loathe as I am to admit it, the imps are most likely examples of the corporeal demons that may or may not count as spirit, depending on definition. The lore on them is very hazy, but demons are essentially the matter that makes up the Mists spontaneously taking on material form and malign will, while the nightmares are of uncertain origin, but have been associated with the Underworld, demonic influence, fallen nature spirits, and negative emotions. Neither kind are widespread in Tyria at the time of GW2, with the exception of the elementally attuned demons called imps. Coincidentally, a parallel to Dragon Age can be drawn in that malevolent spirits are the norm, while benevolent spirits are all but unknown.
R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.
(edited by Aaron Ansari.1604)
I dunno… the kodan belief seems to be that kodan can only ever come back as kodan. At least, there’s not a single mention of moving backwards in race, and the kodan believe that there’s nothing forwards of them.
R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.
EDIT: I realize that the same scattered argument could be used here as has been used for the kodan and the quaggans, but then we could also argue that there’s a thriving race of flesh-and-blood dwarves chilling on another continent. Until we have something to indicate such (like that aside that most of the kodan did go in another direction), it’ll just be unsubstantiated conjecture- not entirely unreasonable, but still nothing but pure guesswork.
Humans in Tyria are nothing like humans on Earth! Not knowing what the rest of the planet looks like, and having more than several sea faring societies… it drives me nuts. Throughout our entire Earth history, humans have had an urge to explore that is almost psychotically insatiable.
Though to be fair, humans on Earth haven’t spent most of their history sharing borders with non-human civilizations that want to wipe them out. :P
On a serious note, though, the drive for exploration is really nowhere near as strong as some people romanticize it. Recently we’ve been doing it primarily for science, but before that last century or two, exploration of the sort you’re suggesting was done primarily, if not solely, to find new resources or trade routes to exploit for profit. Looking at Tyria’s history, it could well be that there was never a point when such a venture would’ve been considered profitable.
R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.
It certainly sounds like a kodan name, but none of them mention it. Is there a heart in that area?
R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.
I don’t think it’s been mentioned here yet, but I believe the krait are in a very bad place as well, as far as long-term viability goes. They were driven from their homes, presumably at great loss (everything we’ve heard about them tells us they would be the sort to fight to the bitter end, so whatever happened out in the ocean must have been so crushing a loss that it broke their spirits), and while they’ve lashed up new towers and aren’t much bothered by the quaggans and hylek they most often share territory with, they’ve also earned the ire of most of the major races. So far, that wrath has been restrained on accounts of other problems, but if things ever stabilize for the humans, sylvari, or Lion’s Arch, there’s a good possibility that they’ll come down on the krait hard. Further, they’ve lost several deeps to the risen, including the only one large enough to really qualify as a city, and in the places that they do have a clear leader, there’s usually an event to kill them- assuming those events are canon, they must be running low on the lieutenant grade krait that can span the gap between the normal ones and the true leadership which seems to be hiding away somewhere. Eventually those leaders will have to choose between stepping out and leading directly, exposing themselves to the wandering miscreants commonly known as “adventurers”, or maintaining their isolation and risk being rejected when they do feel safe to return, a la Fallout.
But speaking of that leadership… their race’s culture, which is the only thing capable of holding together a cohesive racial identity, now survives only in ruins long since lost to them, and the oral traditions jealously guarded by the ruling caste. If the Oratuss fall, the krait may well fragment, which presumably is part of why they’ve stayed hidden away- but this fiasco with Scarlet has exposed signs of dissent within that very same Oratuss, which makes the situation all the more fragile.
In effect, the krait are banking on the player races not getting their act together. That’s the only thing that can save them right now. I’d say that qualifies as a pretty precarious situation.
EDIT: I realize that the same scattered argument could be used here as has been used for the kodan and the quaggans, but then we could also argue that there’s a thriving race of flesh-and-blood dwarves chilling on another continent. Until we have something to indicate such (like that aside that most of the kodan did go in another direction), it’ll just be unsubstantiated conjecture- not entirely unreasonable, but still nothing but pure guesswork.
R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.
(edited by Aaron Ansari.1604)
Sorry guys, I don’t think I’ll be able to make it. My new computer is proving to be more trouble than I thought. >.<
R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.
I really, really hope so- as you pointed out, some of the very earliest information we were given about the nature of the Elder Dragons included comparisons between them and Glint and Kuunavang, and while Glint was later expanded on quite a bit, Kuunavang was left as a hanging thread.
Unfortunately, I think how deeply tied Cantha is to the Elder Dragons may in large part come down to cultural sensitivities. Remember, the entire Canthan district of GW2 was retconned out of existence on the supposed rationale that it might seem insulting to an asian audience, and this was years before they were ready to launch in China. With the upcoming release over there, I would expect such considerations to have the final say in anything Canthan related.
R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.
It’s still pretty cool. I did pretty much the exact same thing when I completed the meta for the first time ever a month ago and then took a bit to wander around. It’s a pity it’s so unpopular.
R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.
Long story short- yes. That particular screenshot looks too abstract to nail down a subject matter, but ogre art and architecture likes to portray beast-like faces, so I suppose it’s possible those might be a pair of highly stylized mandibles.
R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.
(edited by Aaron Ansari.1604)
Beigarth does indeed have new dialogue, but no new information. I don’t remember it exactly, but something along the lines of “some apples have worms”, and then thanks to the character for taking the time to bring him the news.
R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.
To add to Maethor’s description of 3, the two origin stories are not necessarily in conflict. It is possible that Mazdak’s kingdom somehow failed or otherwise ceased to exist, and that the Elonians later colonized the abandoned land. Unfortunately, ANet hasn’t chosen to sort out their tangled timelines, which means for the time being us players will have to make excuses for them.
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It was intentional. Throughout pre-release they talked about how the story of GW2 was told through three different intertwining narratives (dungeons, personal story instances, and open world dynamic event chains), and if you play through all three Arah is obviously the end goal that ties them all together. I think you hit (one of) the problems on the head- instead of being an integration of the three, Arah is instead one doing away completely with the other two, and for casual players, it’s the one line they were least likely to follow through. It wasn’t a bait-and-switch or different developer or anything like that, though, just a design philosophy that they didn’t fully commit to.
R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.
I think what it comes down to is the Pact believed that other forces would suffice to defeat Scarlet, while every Pact soldier who died in the fight would’ve been a Pact soldier unable to fight the Elder Dragons- and with five to go, the Pact might figure they’ll need every soldier they can get a hold of. The only way the decision wouldn’t make sense is if they had a reason to believe whatever other force wasn’t up to the task- and all indications are that the Lionguard and their allies would’ve done well, had the plot not passed them the Idiot Ball.
R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.
I don’t think anything was answered. All we got was that Brisban will be our next destination.
Not even that. It might just be a red herring.
R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.
Alright, looks like I’m clear for today. I’ll be on around reset.
R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.
Sorry, I did see this. The only reason I haven’t responded is because I’m still working out rather I’ll be able to come tomorrow.
R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.
You seem to keep missing the links I keep posting about The Prince being a satire written by a man who was tortured and imprisoned by people who held the very ideals written about in that book.
Therefore I can’t take any references to it in that sort of context even remotely seriously, apologies.
By that argument:
-A soldier is unfit to write a book on battle tactics because he had seen the horrors of war and had suffered during the war.
-A chef is unfit to write a book on cooking because he had been burnt by fire and burning oil when he was cooking.
-A basketball player is unfit to write a book on basketball because he suffered from a career ending injury.
Just because someone suffered due to his experience with a subject, it doesn’t mean that person is unfit to write a book on that subject.
You’re misunderstanding Egon. They’re not saying that Machiavelli was unfit- that’s a term that you brought into this. Machiavelli clearly knew his subject matter, that’s not up for question. The question is why he wrote The Prince.
Egon was saying (as I understand their point) that Machiavelli would not seriously endorse, let alone attempt to encourage, something that had caused him so much needless hardship.
R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.
I agree that it saves space, but at the cost of accuracy. Great-grandmother does not mean the same thing as great-great-great-great-great-great grandmother- otherwise nobody would bother with the needlessly long version. Great-grandmother means “grandmother of the parent of” and cannot mean any other relation.
As to the OP: I sincerely doubt they’d go back to fix something so minor. Unless they surprise me, we really have no choice but to either dismiss the line as an inaccuracy or attempt to bend probability to make the line work (i.e. maybe one of those in-between descendents was one of those incredibly long-lived mages). Which each of you ends up doing will have to depend on your own personal preference.
R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.
Whoa, whoa whoa. When did The Prince become some sort of inviolable canon? As I recall my history, it was written in a time and place where family connections among the nobles were very important, and a wrong to one member reflected on the whole. That is why he made that recommendation.
Demmi has already turned against her father, so that point is moot.
R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.
was rumored to be founded over Mursaat ruins which is likely where the name came from in my opinion.
Just to clarify Invictus’ point, rumored by fans. There wasn’t any dialogue in-game to suggest which race the ruins came from, though an official source did describe them as a “failed civilization” (I believe it was one of the articles from before GW2 launched.)
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…huh. I haven’t myself, no, but my guild leader said she did weeks ago. It was in Bloodtide, but it was back during… Edge of the Mists, I think.
EDIT: Just skimmed the thread, and they made a good point. Elder Dragon awakenings are usually preceded by natural phenomenon across the continent and even beyond. Maybe Mordremoth was already waking up without the ley line.
R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.
(edited by Aaron Ansari.1604)
On this site? No, no, and while I hope I’m wrong here, unlikely.
The largest unofficial site that I know of is here , if you’re interested.
R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.
Faolain kinda . . . left after Caithe told her to go away with lots of sharp weapons. And the Nightmare Court had the next people in turn all turn on each other trying to come out on top (as the Court was designed).
She left Twilight Arbor, but do we know rather she stopped leading the Court? In the explorable mission, the three are only fighting over the tree, not leadership. I always thought Faolain just moved to a secondary base and kept doing dark salad-y things from there.
R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.
The group event isn’t necessary to enter the dungeon- you can just run to the waypoint. While I agree that the mob density is completely ridiculous, it is possible to run through, slightly easier if rather slower to carefully fight through, and fairly easy to do either of those with even just one other person. Just remember to stay away from the statues, make sure to dodge the catapults, and bring all the healing and condi cleanse you can, and you’ll make it through.
R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.
I’ll certainly have enough time. They’re a little longer, but they shouldn’t be too bad- Arah is just a lot of time spent sitting on our hands, and CoE, as I recall (though it has been quite a while) is only slightly longer so long as mobs are prioritized efficiently.
About the schedule- Daylight Savings just kicked in in the US (unless you live in Arizona or Hawaii), but server time doesn’t recognize it. Just to be clear, in server time, when should we be on?
R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.
Why is everyone down on Evon? Seriously, he warned everyone what would happen, he was right, and now he is getting his wares stolen by the Liongaurd because they wouldn’t listen. I still believe Evon is the Mysterious “E”.
I’m down on Evon because he stranded civilians trapped in the heart of Lion’s Arch by shutting off their asura gate for no apparent reason, and then has the kittening nerve to harangue that Kiel and Magnus have the blood of all the dead citizens on their hands.
R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.
As to why the aesthetic has changed, it’s likely attributable to Kryta basically being a melting pot now, with significant populations from four very different nationalities.
Doesn’t look like a melting pot to me, more like a classica Medieval/Rennaissance city. There WAS a combination of Asian, Middle Eastern and European architecture styles in history, called orientalism and chinioiserie , not to mention the Moorish Spain which was a very organic mix of Western and Eastern cultures – and extremely advanced for its age, too. That’s what DR should have looked like it if was supposed to be a “melting pot”.
I didn’t mean “melting pot” as in “a compelling mix of bits of the component culture”- I meant it as “a bland homogenous slop which has removed the characteristics that distinguish one culture from another”.
R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.