Guild Wars 2

Zoltreez.6435:

Vayne.8563:

Where as I loved HoT maps and they saved the game for me It was too easy before. It seems like the playerbase is quite split about if HoT was good or not. I expect a mix of content going forward.

there is a difference betwin something being Annoying or Hard….

Difficulty is not realy an issue for players… people love challenges…
but if the ONLY difficulty is that its being annoying as hell then thats trash…

and hot maps are nothing else then annoying…

You say that as if “annoyance” were an objective measure. It isn’t. What is annoying to you is fun to somebody else. I really loved Verdant Brink and Tangled Depths especially. I didn’t mind taking my time at all. On the other hand, the core Tyria maps all seem like the same boring content with a different skin. There’s little to set them apart in my mind. To each their own, right?

I totally agree on VB. It’s a fantastic map to explore and the way they integrated it into the storyline was just perfect. I was and still am very impressed with the work they did on this map.

On TD. I know you said you’ve only been playing a short while, so your thoughts on this map are not surprising. However, I would advise you to be patient with it. The design is actually quite clever. It quickly became my favorite map, in fact!

Pay particular attention to the Nuhoch Wallows marked on the map. Just to give you an idea of how this works:

Notice the wallow south of Order of Whispers Waypoint? It leads to the Undergrowth Connector, and a nearby wallow there will take you straight to Teku Nuhoch Waypoint. This waypoint is also a wallow hub, with wallows leading to the end of Nuhoch and Rata Novus lanes.

Take the wallow to confluence passage (Rata Novus lane) and you end up right next to another wallow that takes you straight to Rata Novus waypoint.

There are also wallows connecting SCAR and Ogre camp waypoints to their respective lanes.

Once you know enough to not get completely lost and you understand how to use the wallows to get where you want to go, the map is actually very convenient for getting around.

The issue most people have with it is that the map is essentially useless when you’re just starting out as most of the objectives are not located in areas marked with roads and are not reached by traveling in a straight line. The layers make it even more confusing to try and follow the map. Be patient and explore. It will make sense in time. And use those wallows!

The answer to your question is complex.

First, as far as PvP/WvW go, survival stats tend to be far more important. The PvP meta for elementalist is a healer build. Elementalist has a very difficult time surviving as a damage dealer in this environment. In WvW there are some more offensive builds, but you still aren’t likely to survive for very long in that environment if you don’t at the very least take some extra vitality on your gear.

PvE is a different animal. Elementalists are damage dealers in group PvE. When it comes to open world, there is room for tankier builds (since you can pretty much do whatever feels right to you). However, whether those survival stats are worth it depends a lot on your priorities and skill level.

Why not try full glass and see how it goes? Again, it’s open world so you can do whatever feels right. If it’s too fragile for your tastes, then dial it back a bit until you feel comfortable. You might try a marauder set if berserker isn’t to your liking. The extra vitality really takes the edge off and you still deal great damage.

Halan.7931:

Nice one. What’s on the head?

I need to finish Daredevil Scarf (full traits on boosted character), so I can use it for transmog on Ranger.

It’s the light armor headpiece from the glorious set, which is obtained via the glorious reward track in PvP.

AncientYs.8613:

i’m diggin’ your toon :>

Thanks!

Share your desert-ready look! I mean, this is “Fashion Wars”, right? You guys DO have a new look for the new expansion, don’t you?

Got my new desert-ready look! I’m all set!

I’m taking a “wait and see” approach, but I have already purchased the PoF ultimate package because ANet has earned my support with what they delivered with HoT.

Having said that, I did not find the demo encouraging. The first piece of the storyline felt uninspired and the first map very flat and uninteresting. By comparison, Verdant Brink was a simply incredible map and the integration with the HoT storyline was perfection. When I first walked into that map and saw the destruction of the pact fleet in open world, then dove into exploring that jungle I really felt what ANet was trying to show me. I didn’t get that feeling with the PoF demo. Not at all.

Mounts seem like a strong addition. I enjoyed the feel of the mount. However, I am concerned that this will be little more than a gimmick. I noticed random obstacles that felt contrived – existing simply to give me a reason to use the raptor’s leap ability. Gliding never felt that way, although some of the other HoT masteries certainly did (Itzel poison mastery!).

As for the elite spec demo, I will have to spend more time with them but I was definitely disappointed with my preferred class (elementalist). The cooldown on attunement swapping combined with the dual attunement aspect of weaver felt slow and clunky, where I was really expecting a much more fluid experience.

HoT seemed like just one of those things that evoked strong emotions. Very few players that I’ve met didn’t have strong opinions on it. I feel like PoF won’t quite be the same in that sense. But we’ll see.

I feel like we really need to be able to access those off-hand abilities more quickly. The spec feels clunky as it stands. What about something like this…

You’re in fire/water…

You choose earth, leaving you in earth/fire. 4 second cooldown.

However, if you choose earth again, it ignores the cooldown and allows the swap, but adds an additional 4 second cooldown before you can swap out of earth/earth.

This would give us the benefit of easy access to off-hand skills, but if we don’t plan ahead as intended we end up locked into a single attunement for up to 8 seconds in order to gain that access.

Just so you’re aware up front, raiding is a relatively minor part of endgame and the “gear treadmill” is virtually non-existent. Since you aren’t constantly upgrading your gear to progress through increasingly difficult raids, it can give GW2 endgame a somewhat aimless feel to those used to the WoW style of endgame, where what to do next is fairly obvious.

If you weren’t big into raiding in WoW, this may not be an issue for you. And, in my opinion, GW2 is far better than WoW at open world content for solo players. So if that’s more your speed, you may feel very much at home with GW2’s amazing maps, dynamic events, and action-oriented combat. The HoT expansion especially has maps like nothing you’ve ever seen in WoW.

If instanced PvE is more your style, GW2 offers a variety of what we call “fractals” (dungeons, more or less). But you can play fractals on various difficulty tiers where the enemies and mechanics become more difficult.

If fighting against other players is your thing, be aware that GW2 offers no open world PvP to speak of. However, it does offer sPvP, which mostly features 5v5 games where teams compete over 3 capture points. This is quite a lot more limited than WoW’s battlegrounds, unfortunately. But if you enjoy BGs, then chances are you will enjoy sPvP.

There is also WvW, which last I checked WoW doesn’t have. These are large PvP maps where 3 servers compete in large scale battles and conduct sieges to capture keeps and other objectives.

MFoy.3284:

By Ogdens hammer what savings!

I think people would feel a lot better about buying the expansion if this guy were in it.

Just imagine if you got off the airship and the first thing you heard was “By Ogden’s hammer, what savings!”

Bonus points if he sometimes says “By Ogden’s savings, what hammer!”

It’s pretty difficult to argue that ANet didn’t drop the ball on this one. The storyline is a mess for new players.

You are barred from progress toward the mastery system unless you skip ahead to the HoT storyline, which makes no sense at all when you should be able to work toward the core masteries while completing the original storyline provided you have purchased the expansion.

Once you complete the storyline, you get to watch a recap of the events of LWS1. Better than nothing, but not by much! Then, if you wish to maintain any sort of continuity at all, you have to buy LWS2 from the gem shop. Only then are you able to pick up with the HoT storyline and LWS3 and have it make any sense.

I really think purchasing an expansion should unlock the entire storyline leading up to it (except LWS1 due to the “innovative” way they decided to handle that part of the story). With massive holes in the story and the feeling of being pressured to skip ahead in order to avoid wasting experience, players enter HoT with a “Why should I care?” attitude toward the whole story.

I thought the last expansion was great and I’m still enjoying the game. I figured ANet deserved the benefit of the doubt and my support at this point. After playing the demo and getting a look at the elite specs, I’m not as confident about PoF as I was, but that was really just a snapshot. I’m still excited to see what else it brings to the table.

I would say guardian appears (anecdotally) to be the class with the highest representation at the moment, while warrior seems to have the least. That’s based upon this past season in ranked play (233 games played) between gold 1 and platinum 1. But again, that’s just my impression.

STIHL.2489:

Ardid.7203:

The OP didn’t used the word “Casual” in the opening post to clarify his point and elaborate a clear question.

Quite the oposite.

He used the word “Casual” to give an artificial weight to his general opinion in the thread through a false sense of representation of a certain “group”. Then left an open ended question to generate debate.

His specific definition of “Casual” came in much later, when the thread had already devolved into a fist salad.

As I am starting to see, so the problem with this topic is that I did not start it with one of those big red Q’s, as such it seems that many of the people coming to this topic can’t seem to figure out that I was asking a question, not making a statement.

I’ll have to keep that in mind in the future, and now it suddenly makes sense why Anet put in the option for those big red Q’s.

Oh, poor you.

You’ve made plenty of statements by now. I’m sorry that your thread didn’t begin and end with “HoT sucks, but I can’t tell if PoF is going to.”

STIHL.2489:

Djinn.9245:

AliamRationem.5172:

This is such a bunch of nonsense. Where has the OP been clear about his definition of casual?

In several posts, including just before your post here.

AliamRationem.5172:

He took his own advice and left, but he never got over it and he’s back to argue the merits of it. Has ANet remembered the casuals? Yes. But that doesn’t mean the OP is going to get what he wants.

If you actually read the OP’s posts, he’s back because of PoF and wants to determine whether Anet has changed direction any from HoT. It’s actually pretty clear.

Well I thought it was pretty clear. which is making me wonder why it is acceptable to say things like “Learn to Play” or “git gud” when a player is struggling, but when people can’t seem to follow a simple point on a forum post, saying “learn to Read” is considered insulting and wrong?

I never said “learn to play” or “git gud”. As a self-described casual player, I don’t consider it important to validate myself by tearing down the skills of others in the game I play. I play the way I want to and I don’t have any issue with others doing the same.

You know perfectly well that nobody can answer the “simple question” you asked based upon nothing more than a brief demo. And you’re being disingenuous by suggesting that’s all you were looking for when you chose the thread title. You may not like what some of the people in this thread have to say, but you’re wasting your time trying to suggest that they don’t have the right to say it.

Djinn.9245:

Manijin.3428:

To answer the original question: Yes, ANet has remembered the casuals.

I didn’t see any evidence of this with HoT. The LS3 maps were more friendly, but those were already in production when HoT came out so are not necessarily in response to the problems people had with HoT. I will wait to see what PoF is like before coming to any conclusions about whether Anet still cares about all the casual players that made GW2 a success at launch.

Seems to me that they did.

The seamless cooperation is still in place. Unlike other games, where you have to be in a group with other players to share credit from kills, this game makes it so that players more or less only benefit from having other players present, rather than stepping on each other’s toes. The result is that it’s very solo friendly, even if players sometimes require other players to complete objectives.

There is still no gear treadmill. Players aren’t racing the clock until the next update, where they know their current gear will become irrelevant. Not only that, your gear can only be upgraded so much, so players will never find themselves at a severe disadvantage if they don’t focus all of their energy on upgrading gear.

The game is still decidedly focused on the personal story and open world content. They added raids, but there is no driving need to complete them. They’ve added a few fractals, but nothing to pressure players into participating in them unless they want to.

The game seems very much a “play the way you want to play” world to me. Of course, if you dislike HoT due to the difficulty of combat/navigation, then I can see why you might have issues. They didn’t offer you an alternative in the form of more straightforward maps with easier combat (at least until LS3). But nothing about the overall casual nature of the game has changed.

Rashagar.8349:

AliamRationem.5172:

katz.8376:

Dashingsteel.3410:

This thread is still a jumbled mess because everyone has their own definition of the word casual.

OP, could you please give specific things that the developers need to do to “remember the casuals”

This request is just too vague.

Stihl didn’t actually request anything. he simply asked if a certain gamer demographic had been remembered. a great amount of this thread has not actually addressed the question at hand, but instead has quibbled over word definitions and had plenty of accusatory finger pointing, wrong assumptions, and borderline trolling.

Driven by the OP’s responses as well, if we’re being fair.

I consider myself casual by virtue of being a solo player that doesn’t care about the meta. In other words, I “play the way I want to play”. And if you ask me, HoT was a great expansion.

The only reason I’m “quibbling over word definitions” is because I’m being challenged on my definition of “casual”. So let’s not pretend that the OP and those who agree with him own the definition and the rest of us are just trolling.

It’s not that one definition is right and the others are wrong, it’s that one definition is relevant to this thread and the others are less so.
I don’t have to agree with the OP’s definition of the term to use the OP’s definition of the term.

This is such a bunch of nonsense. Where has the OP been clear about his definition of casual?

According to him, it has nothing to do with time spent playing. Oh, but if you have too many legendary weapons and you happen to disagree with his outlook on HoT, that excludes you from the “casual” group.

Also according to him, it has nothing to do with skill. But if you make platinum in PvP and can solo HoT champions, you’re too “serious” and not “casual” enough.

Casual is a mind set, he says. It means playing the game casually, which I gather refers to not taking it too seriously. So when I say I am a solo player that doesn’t do the meta and I play the way I want to, how does that not meet the definition? Apparently, because he says so.

No. I think it’s clear that what the OP really wants is people to agree with him about HoT. He took his own advice and left, but he never got over it and he’s back to argue the merits of it. Has ANet remembered the casuals? Yes. But that doesn’t mean the OP is going to get what he wants.

katz.8376:

Dashingsteel.3410:

This thread is still a jumbled mess because everyone has their own definition of the word casual.

OP, could you please give specific things that the developers need to do to “remember the casuals”

This request is just too vague.

Stihl didn’t actually request anything. he simply asked if a certain gamer demographic had been remembered. a great amount of this thread has not actually addressed the question at hand, but instead has quibbled over word definitions and had plenty of accusatory finger pointing, wrong assumptions, and borderline trolling.

Driven by the OP’s responses as well, if we’re being fair.

I consider myself casual by virtue of being a solo player that doesn’t care about the meta. In other words, I “play the way I want to play”. And if you ask me, HoT was a great expansion.

The only reason I’m “quibbling over word definitions” is because I’m being challenged on my definition of “casual”. So let’s not pretend that the OP and those who agree with him own the definition and the rest of us are just trolling.

Djinn.9245:

Rhanoa.3960:

Dashingsteel.3410:

How the hell is Anet supposed to remember the casuals when nobody really knows what casual actually means?

Again, this thread is useless because everyone seems to have a different meaning assigned to the word casual.

Op….. Please provide specific points as to what the developers need to remember!!!

Linear and easy game play.

As someone who fits all definitions of “casual” – no. Gameplay does not have to be linear to be good for casual players. I love exploration as long as I’m not being killed every 3 seconds. I don’t mind figuring out where things are. That was the big fail for Tangled Depths for me. So many people love the intricacies of that map but I can’t enjoy that because I’m busy fighting / running for my life. The only time I get to take a breath and look around is at a WP (uncontested) or when I’m dead.

As for easy, since many players think that HoT mobs and even Champions are easy I guess that is also a range that depends on the player. I don’t mind more difficult mobs, just not so many of them.

As someone who fits YOUR definition of casual. Had you considered that you might be in the minority at this point? You’re working under the assumption that most players feel the way you do and you believe (but don’t know) that the reason HoT “failed” are the reasons you dislike it.

However, you have no proof of that. There were other significant factors. First, that HoT at launch spawned a lot more complaints than it does now. Second, that the price point and failure to deliver on certain promises in the initial release turned many players away. There are plenty of reasons besides the combat and navigation being too difficult that contributed to the less-than-stellar release.

But your complaints seem to be in a distinct minority at this point. Part of that is that players like yourself have left the game. But part of it is also that they responded to the complaints and toned down some of the more obnoxious elements of the initial release to appeal to a broader range of players. I think they succeeded in that, but of course you can’t please everyone.

STIHL.2489:

AliamRationem.5172:

Not necessarily. What I’m telling you is that I don’t play the way hardcore players do.

What you seem to be missing, is that You are not playing the way Hardcore Players in WoW play, but that has no relation to what demographic you fall into among the GW2 community.

To me, that’s the definition of a casual. And it’s something that I feel GW2 does a great job of encouraging. Play the way I want to play.

Again.. yes.. GW2 fosters that community, as such it has a totally different social setting, which means you very may fall into a totally different rung on the ‘leet’ ladder, not to mention, you may enjoy GW2 more then WoW, so instinctively you play it more, are more invested into it. and thus are inherently driven to be better at it then you ever were with WoW, thus even without thinking about it, you gravitate towards being a far more serious gamer.

Simply put.. just because you were a Casual among WoW’s population, does not mean you are a Casual among GW2’s population.

After all, I would wager that there are a fair number of people who play GW2 that never even bothered to touch WoW, due to how demanding the game is.

And since you mention it, I did my time in WoW. I played from Vanilla through BC and WotLK. I was a hardcore raider in a best-on-server guild and later led my own raiding guild where I was raid leader and played critical roles like main tank, off-tank, and raid healer. I enjoyed it at the time, but I got tired of the way it began to feel like a full-time job. That’s what I think of when I think “hardcore”, and GW2 really doesn’t have a lot of that even for those who enjoy that sort of gameplay.

Bingo.. GW2 even at its most ‘leet’ is still nowhere near WoW’s level, as such, what is casual to WoW, is not necessarily Casual to GW2.

I think you’re a lot more “Hardcore” in this game, then you realize.

I imagine you’re feeling like we don’t speak the same language at this point. I know I certainly feel that way!

No, I was not a casual WoW player. There is nothing casual about leading a raiding guild or being part of the best raiding guild on your server there.

As I said, I got tired of that. The problem? WoW didn’t have much to offer the solo player, relative to a game like GW2 where the situation is reversed and raiding is the afterthought.

Using your definition of “casual”, I am not a casual player by virtue of playing too many hours and being too skilled at the game. By my definition, the fact that I am a solo player and don’t participate in organized group PvE makes me a casual player.

You may disagree but, HoT is still designed the way all of GW2 is designed in the sense that it is for the solo player. Yes, the meta events require large groups, but GW2 allows seamless cooperation. You don’t even need to join those groups and nobody will know or care if you aren’t very skilled or aren’t using the meta build.

You can show up whenever you like and just play on your own terms. To me, that is casual. The fact that the combat and navigation are more of a challenge than core Tyria doesn’t make it less casual to me. What would make it less casual is if it took on the characteristics of raiding. It does nothing of the sort. It is still built for solo players who want to play their own way.

I get that you don’t like it. The combat and navigation are frustrating to you. But you don’t own casual. There are plenty of solo players out there who love HoT and when it comes to raiding, can take it or leave it. The first guild I joined (and am still a part of) is full of players like that. Nobody is running DPS meters or forcing the meta. We all just do our own thing.

STIHL.2489:

AliamRationem.5172:

Daddicus.6128:

Ashen.2907:

Personally, I think that, especially in an MMO, 15 hours per week is well within the realm of casual.

I agree. I’ve spent over 25 hours a week, but I’m definitely casual. I don’t think hours played is a defining characteristic of casual.

Actually, the definition of the word “casual” seems to be pretty casually-stated.

So, the word “casual” probably isn’t limited to any one definition. It’s probably more of a section of a continuum. Things like:

• Many hours vs. few hours.
• Solo vs. group-centric attitudes.
• Easy play vs. hard play.
• Structured play vs. unstructured.

and probably a lot more. Casuals would tend to be on one side of any summary of those tallies, and hardcores on the other. But, no one thing “defines” either group.

I agree. As I said before, the most defining characteristic of “casual” from my WoW experience was an unwillingness to schedule one’s life around the game. Generally, this referred to raiding, where any one individual’s schedule must align with the needs of the 9-39 other players in the group.

A corollary of that is that players who didn’t raid tended to be (mostly) solo players. And because any player that was insufficiently skilled and/or experienced with the game to raid generally didn’t raid, and was therefore likely to be a solo player, being a solo player was often associated with a lack of skill as well.

That may define the “average” casual player, but I don’t think it fits all of them. I consider myself at least somewhat casual because I dislike organized group PvE. I have only 2 raid boss kills (VG and that escort boss) and my fractal level isn’t very high either. As a result, I spend most of my time solo and I generally refuse to commit to showing up to play for group gameplay, as a rule.

On the other hand, I loved exploring the HoT maps and I can solo every hero point champion, every bandit champion (including the legendary executioner), I hit platinum rank my first season in PvP, too. And I spend quite a lot of time playing GW2. I also have 3 legendaries crafted so far and did every achievement in SAB this year.

Probably not the “average” casual, but I am a mostly solo player that won’t commit to group content on a schedule.

Now, given how many people have said, (in this topic alone) that GW2 is very casual friendly, that it’s demographic is made up mostly of what gamers from games like WoW would consider casual players, which is easy enough to believe, given how Solo Friendly GW2’s design is, couple that with how much time you have invested into it (which I am going to be bet was more then you put into WoW, since the was more appealing to you, given how much easier it is then WoW to get to the end game and be optimally equipped) that by GW2 standards you fall into the category of a Serous Player?

Not necessarily. What I’m telling you is that I don’t play the way hardcore players do. I may spend as much time playing as they do. I may have the skill to do what they do. But I’m a solo player. I do what I want to do and play when and what I want to play.

If it isn’t “meta”? So what? I didn’t play the meta in PvP. I stuck with my d/d elementalist because that’s what I like. Same with PvE. I’m not interested in jumping through hoops and committing to a scheduled raid time. So I just don’t.

To me, that’s the definition of a casual. And it’s something that I feel GW2 does a great job of encouraging. Play the way I want to play. Well, here I can do exactly that and I can do it without feeling like what I enjoy doing is some sort of afterthought to the developers. In WoW, raiding is everything. The whole PvE world is set up to funnel you toward it. Here raiding is just there for those who want it.

And since you mention it, I did my time in WoW. I played from Vanilla through BC and WotLK. I was a hardcore raider in a best-on-server guild and later led my own raiding guild where I was raid leader and played critical roles like main tank, off-tank, and raid healer. I enjoyed it at the time, but I got tired of the way it began to feel like a full-time job. That’s what I think of when I think “hardcore”, and GW2 really doesn’t have a lot of that even for those who enjoy that sort of gameplay.

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

AliamRationem.5172:

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

Do you see how much QQ there are on the forums from everyone going “meh” over the new specs? Can you imagine how much there would be if it were no better than what we already have?

That’s not the point. Elite specs should serve different functions in order to offer a choice. But take elementalist for example. Tempest is supposed to be a support option. So what did they do? Nerf the damage and offer nothing toward support. Is that how you go about offering a distinctly different option vs. weaver?

Nerf the damage on tempest? Fine. But give something back.

I never said they needed to be an increase in damage, I said they needed to be better than we already have.

You don’t get it. Tempest already had the support options but the DPS was so high that nobody ever used it (except WvW) and it was just a straight up increase to ele damage. If you can’t build support with a Tempest, uninstall pls.

It’s not that you can’t build for support with tempest. The issue is that nobody wants to bring support tempest because other classes provide better support without sacrificing as much to do so. The changes nerfed damage without altering that scenario.

Maybe I’m wrong? If so, I expect we’ll see tempest as a main support role. Is that happening so far? You tell me.

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

Do you see how much QQ there are on the forums from everyone going “meh” over the new specs? Can you imagine how much there would be if it were no better than what we already have?

That’s not the point. Elite specs should serve different functions in order to offer a choice. But take elementalist for example. Tempest is supposed to be a support option. So what did they do? Nerf the damage and offer nothing toward support. Is that how you go about offering a distinctly different option vs. weaver?

Nerf the damage on tempest? Fine. But give something back.

Daddicus.6128:

Ashen.2907:

Personally, I think that, especially in an MMO, 15 hours per week is well within the realm of casual.

I agree. I’ve spent over 25 hours a week, but I’m definitely casual. I don’t think hours played is a defining characteristic of casual.

Actually, the definition of the word “casual” seems to be pretty casually-stated.

So, the word “casual” probably isn’t limited to any one definition. It’s probably more of a section of a continuum. Things like:

• Many hours vs. few hours.
• Solo vs. group-centric attitudes.
• Easy play vs. hard play.
• Structured play vs. unstructured.

and probably a lot more. Casuals would tend to be on one side of any summary of those tallies, and hardcores on the other. But, no one thing “defines” either group.

I agree. As I said before, the most defining characteristic of “casual” from my WoW experience was an unwillingness to schedule one’s life around the game. Generally, this referred to raiding, where any one individual’s schedule must align with the needs of the 9-39 other players in the group.

A corollary of that is that players who didn’t raid tended to be (mostly) solo players. And because any player that was insufficiently skilled and/or experienced with the game to raid generally didn’t raid, and was therefore likely to be a solo player, being a solo player was often associated with a lack of skill as well.

That may define the “average” casual player, but I don’t think it fits all of them. I consider myself at least somewhat casual because I dislike organized group PvE. I have only 2 raid boss kills (VG and that escort boss) and my fractal level isn’t very high either. As a result, I spend most of my time solo and I generally refuse to commit to showing up to play for group gameplay, as a rule.

On the other hand, I loved exploring the HoT maps and I can solo every hero point champion, every bandit champion (including the legendary executioner), I hit platinum rank my first season in PvP, too. And I spend quite a lot of time playing GW2. I also have 3 legendaries crafted so far and did every achievement in SAB this year.

Probably not the “average” casual, but I am a mostly solo player that won’t commit to group content on a schedule.

Djinn.9245:

AliamRationem.5172:

Djinn.9245:

AliamRationem.5172:

Snowywonders.1378:

Verdant Brink a “ginormous jump puzzles”
Draconis mons “impossible to travel without guides”

The worst part is these things are said as undisputable facts. It’s so sad. Hopefully Anet just ignores these trolls.

Yeah, VB is a “jump puzzle” because gliding into an updraft or jumping on to a bounce mushroom requires a great deal of proficiency, right?

Have you considered that players come into Verdant Brink with none of the masteries you are talking about? Clearly you haven’t.

Yeah, you’re right. I was one of the anointed few who was given access to all of the HoT masteries from the start. Lucky me!

So what does this have to do with the claim that VB is one gigantic “jump puzzle” exactly? The fact that you have to explore, play, and progress through the jungle was by design and I really don’t see how it precludes casual players at all.

I didn’t say it precluded casual players. We are talking about a person’s comment that VB is one big JP, which I agree with especially before you have most of the Masteries.

You can call it a jump puzzle if you like, but it’s missing a key element of jump puzzles: technical jumping.

In my opinion, VB is better described as an exploration challenge. The pathways to various objectives are not obvious and require the player to look for ways to reach higher ground to glide from without relying upon the map.

Regardless of what you call it, I’m puzzled by the implication that this is somehow beyond the realm of the “casual” player. Is the premise that the casual player has too little time to “waste” on exploring without resorting to following a line on a map?

You’re not alone. I hate adventures. They aren’t enjoyable or interesting to me. I did many of them in the process of maxxing my mastery level, but never went back to do them again.

Having said that, I look at adventures the way I look at jump puzzles. I know people who love jump puzzles, so they add value to the game even if they don’t do much for me. And I can’t really talk, as I loved SAB and I know plenty of people wish that had never been!

Played around in the demo a bit more. The map is seeming quite full of empty space. I’m seeing events here and there, and hearts, but the events don’t feel connected and there aren’t enough of them to fill the space. Is there going to be a meta event for these maps? Do the individual events lead to something else? Or is this core Tyria all over again where we just run around bumping into events that just feel like a grab for a little experience and loot and not much else?

I liked the way HoT events tell a story and build toward a big event. I also liked the way there seem to be events happening all over the place. And the vertical maps themselves were a lot more interesting than a big open space. I realize we need to justify mounts as one of the big draws of this expansion, but I’m not convinced throwing out the amazing features that made HoT such a great expansion (for me, at least) is the way to go.

I hope the demo isn’t fully demonstrating what this expansion will offer. It feels very light on interesting features, so far.

wmtyrance.3571:

TwiceDead.1963:

wmtyrance.3571:

Freaking HOT was bad because of the map navigation. Some people call that challenging others say its annoying. It comes down to what the person thinks it means. I myself like challenging content not bad map design which HOT was to me. I hated the game everytime i went on that map. And it changed the players attitude toward each other to be more selfish. GW2 was a really great game with a equally great community and HOT even changed that.

I see. If a map isn’t completely kittening flat it’s bad map-design. The only map that was a cluster-kitten to navigate was Tangled Depths, the other maps were fine. Verdant Brink takes some getting used to maybe, but if you can’t even put in that much effort, I have a feeling you’re just going to complain no matter what obstacle is put infront of you.

Again give players better content then wasting your time trying to make it hard to get to the content. You may have like the map but you are out numbered by many others that didn’t like it. You logic and reply is lame.

There’s room for both types of map. Majority rules doesn’t produce the best MMO. It produces the most generic one. A defining feature of GW2 is that it isn’t a generic MMO. It’s supposed to have areas of the game that aren’t going to appeal to everyone (see vertical maps, jump puzzles, adventures, SAB , etc.).

If you want to say that going all one way with vertical maps the way HoT did was a mistake, I 100% agree with you. But my concern is that they’ll make the exact same mistake in PoF by swinging the pendulum the other way. LS3 seemed like a successful model that gave us a little of both. I’m hoping it’s that middle ground that offers something for everyone that they’ll try for and not just what you believe the “majority” wants.

Celtic Lady.3729:

Seyiwaji.4082:

This is the wrong question.
YOU NEED TO ASK:
WHY DO YOU REGRET BUYING HO?.

LOL I’ve seen a fair number of people say they do regret buying. I’ve had moments when I’ve regretted it, usually owing to some completely unnecessary frustration built into the system or another. Overall, I don’t regret buying it because there are some things about it I still like. I like gliding and mushroom jumping. I like VB. I like the Season 3 maps (most of them). I like the story (most of it).

My main problem with HoT is that I don’t feel like it’s “aging” well with fewer and fewer people playing the maps. Most players have moved on and even more will move on with PoF. This has the potential for new players to buy HoT in the future but not be able to get their characters through all the content.

Megaserver makes this a non-issue. In fact, if there were fewer map instances open at any given time you’d probably have less chance of ending up on a “dead” map.

Experienced players know they need to use LFG to get off of the empty map instances left over before and after the meta (due to players consolidating on a meta map and then leaving afterward), but for new players it just seems like you hop from one dead map to another.

Once you figure that part out, you see that the maps are quite active. You can find HP trains, meta maps, and get help with events easily. And there’s no reason to expect that will change. People still play core maps and they are far less rewarding. They will continue to play HoT maps as well.

Acandis.3250:

I agree that separate divisions don’t have sufficient incentive to climb out of (specially in non legend/plat) tiers since anyone not in the top 250 gets essentially the same end-of-season reward: zilch.

I’ve long been an advocate for there to be unique end of season rewards based on your division, and I think it’s the proper way to incentivize progression for the more casual population.

That being said I 100% disagree with your idea to lock ranked until you have X amount of games played. Sometimes people wanna try out something new in an environment they know will challenge them, that’s why they mess around in ranked.

I actually think the system does a decent enough job of keeping people where they belong skill wise, (up until you hit plat3, the lack of high level population makes matchmaking a nightmare). So, if you lose a couple games because someone on your team didn’t know what they were doing, chances are you’ll also see that person on the opposite team and you’ll win a couples games off them—but if you lose again, then you were the common denominator.

So, the only problem I see with the current Ranked system is that there isn’t enough incentive to win games. As long as you spam games, everyone can farm the pip reward track and get tons of gold anyways and it doesn’t matter if they end up bronze cause they can hide their badge anyways.

I would like to see weapon or armor skins that are unique to the division you placed in, but after 3 years of asking, I’m giving up hope it will ever happen.

I like these ideas. Players should have something to show for their efforts that are directly linked to performance, not just how many games you played. Unique skins specific to your PvP rank are a great way to do that.

Also, if it’s not too much trouble could we have something to differentiate each tier within a division (e.g. a different badge for platinum 1, platinum 2, and platinum 3, etc.)? For all the ups and downs and hard work we put into climbing the rating scale, it would be nice to be able to show off our progress as we go!

I disagree with the suggestions to prevent players from competing in ranked play if they are below rank 80 and/or have fewer than 500 games played. I was new this season, played 233 ranked games, and am currently tiger rank (low 40s). But I worked my way up to platinum 1 and at my highest point was within 30 rating points of the top 250.

I’m not saying I’m the greatest player around and I will admit that I make some mistakes that more experienced players wouldn’t make. But if I can do better than some of you who are making these suggestions, what right do you have to exclude players like me?

Presumably, if players are new and they can’t compete at a high level of play, they will decrease in rating. Likewise, if you’re better than those players, you’ll increase in rating and find fewer and fewer “noobs” on your team. We all play within the same system here. Let’s not pretend that you are cursed with more inexperienced players than the rest of us as you climb the rank scale.

STIHL.2489:

mbhalo.1547:

STIHL.2489:

The above is why I do it.. too many posers come in to topics like this, and try to pretend to be something they are not.

Now you’re being toxic elitist just the other way around.

At first I was going to disagree with you, but you know what, Fair enough. far be it from me to turn people away, so, lets open that box shall we.

Lets accept this as “Casual”

mbhalo.1547:

I consider myself a casual player – 4000 hours played, 16k AP, 5 legendary weapons + legendary backpack, do T4 fractals almost every day and here and there dabble into raiding.

Now the longest a player can be playing is 5 years, so lets set this as a benchmark.

1 legendary weapon for every year played.

Average 800 Hours a Year Played, or roughly a little over 2 hours a day, every single day.

16K AP.

and a legendary backpack.

Seems excessive to me.. but.. others chimed in, to defend this as a typical Casual achievement.

AliamRationem.5172:

15 hours per week is pretty casual, honestly. That translates into a couple of hours per day…less than most people spend watching TV or BS’ing on the internet daily.

TCFactory.1473:

Seconding this. Casual means a lot of things to a lot of people.

You can be casual if you only play a couple of hours a week (and 15 hours a week easily translates into like, only doing the dailies and the occasional afternoon during the weekend).

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

There are all sorts of people who have that sort of resume and consider themselves to be casual.

Ok.. soo lets roll with that is the bse line of a casual, after all, it’s been made clear, that should be pretty easy to do by more then one person.

And what was said about casuals?

Oh right..

Casuals ruin games.

So.. well.. yah.. 5 legendary weapons, legendary back item, 16K AP , should be stupid easy that any casual can do it .. so.. how many of you have done better?

Just gonna wait now for the show of hands.

As I said, my understanding of “casual” from WoW was an unwillingness to schedule my life around the game. Specifically, it meant not participating in organized group content (raids).

You seem to suggest that it means that along with not putting in much time or being technically proficient at the gameplay. And then using that narrow definition, you suggest that you belong here while players like myself don’t because I put in too much time and am too proficient at the gameplay to meet your definition.

You asked why I (and others like me) aren’t playing other games? It’s pretty simple. I signed on after HoT and was very impressed with the HoT open world content. I spent more than a year basically doing nothing else. I play mostly solo and mostly in open world, and GW2 is a great game for that. HoT just brought an increase in challenge along with amazing exploration maps, all of which I really loved.

So maybe I don’t belong here, but I’d rather be playing this game than WoW or any of the others I’ve tried. I guess it’s too bad they made HoT and attracted players like me who are apparently neither hardcore nor casual.

I’m finding the combat pretty fun so far. Those fire hydras are just awesome!

I chose elementalist with a full set of celestial gear, water/air/tempest (fresh air) build. Strong heals and decent power-based burst through fresh air. The veterans definitely have some meat on them, but I’m not finding anything to be too much of a threat so far. But then I am using a pretty tanky build.

Flatley.1620:

Here’s my definition of casual; yours, undoubtably will differ and this is how I see myself:

Plays perhaps an hour a day
Groups on the rarist of occassions
Will never get a legendary due to time sinks
Will never get all MP’s
Never raids, does fractals
Isn"t concerned about raids, fractals, APs
Has resigned themselves to all of the above but…

… still enjoys playing

I recall in WoW it seemed to suggest the player was not into organized group content (ranked PvP, raids, etc.) that generally required players to plan around their teammates schedule. In other words, “casual” indicates an unwillingness to plan their life around the game.

So maybe they only played an hour per day sometimes, and other times they would play for hours at a time. Sometimes you wouldn’t see them for a week or two, and other times they’d go on a binge all weekend. But what they wouldn’t do was commit to showing up at a scheduled time.

I guess it means different things to different people, but since organized group content is a relatively small part of GW2, I always considered it a “casual” game for that reason.

Panda.1967:

I swear, everyone who complains about them nit designing PoF maps around gliding must have never played GW1… The Crystal Desert region and Northern Elona were both very flat regions when compared to Maguuma. Even though there are canyons and mountains throughout the desert, none of them were anywhere near as big as the ones in Maguuma. Even with the reawakening of the elder dragons the landscape of Tyria has hardly changed since the events of GW1. No one shoukd be expecting them to redesign the landscape of an established region just to incorporate the need for gliders.

Mounts may not be everyones cup of tea, but PoF is the best expansion for them to add them in, just like HoT was the best expansion for them to add gliding. The landscapes in GW2 are designed around their original GW1 versions with very little variation in establisbed regions.

Sorry, no, I didn’t play GW1. I didn’t start with this franchise until after HoT, which I personally thought was by far the best open world content available in any MMO I’ve tried.

And who says they need to rework the entire feel of the area to include vertical maps? What if we discovered a new underground cave system? Or if we had something mostly in the sky above something like Bloodstone Fen? There’s no reason you need to trash the old to bring in the new. But, of course, since they decided not to include HoT content with PoF purchase, they can’t do that. Like I said, disappointing for those of us who were hoping for a vertical map or two in the expansion.

Sylent.3165:

What happened to this???

I am very far behind in this game because the mastery system. I really have a hard time getting mastery points to level anything and my exp bar is always full.

You have to do these silly mini games which is ok…but you HAVE to complete in x amount of time.

You need to do story missions which is fine as I enjoy them, but you HAVE to do it by anets rules and do all the achievements to get the mastery points. This makes the story quests extremely annoying and not fun at all.

I want to unlock mastery points by playing and advancing in the game not by you have to play this part of the game this way only

You can play the way you want. Not all of the masteries are strictly necessary. It just depends upon what your goals are, which is no different from the core game. For instance, you don’t need to craft a legendary weapon. But if you decide to do so, there are plenty of things you will need to do and it’s likely that some of it consists of gameplay you wouldn’t participate in if you weren’t crafting a legendary weapon.

I hate “adventures” and didn’t bother with them for about a year. It didn’t affect me at all. I simply grabbed the masteries I wanted and left the rest. Eventually I made it a personal goal to max my mastery level. So, despite not strictly needing those masteries, I buckled down and knocked out the adventures that I had successfully avoided for a year. My choice. I played the way I wanted to.

SuperduperMLGbsns.9345:

Malthurius.6870:

This is barely a problem, since it can turn pretty tightly, and it gives more of a ‘carving’ kind of feel to it, like you’re actually riding a creature that’s faster than you.

You could also just dismount whenever you need to turn sharply and mount up again, since it’s instant to dismount and mount, just a 1 second CD.

This is the worst possible answer I could have expected, especially the 1st line.

It also appears as a minor thing but actually you are going to work with mounts for 100s of hours. And thats just the first impression I have from the addon. If the rest is more related to wow and other generic trash, then good night.

It seems more realistic to me. It looks and feels as you would expect a mount to look and feel. Compare to WoW where you can turn on a dime and spin your mount around instantly.

I agree that it’s very annoying when your mount gets snagged in tight spaces. Since you can’t turn on a dime, it seems easy to get stuck and be forced to slowly work your way out. However, I feel this is more of a learning issue. Since there is no cast time to mount/dismount, players simply need to get used to dismounting in these situations.

A similar example was something I noticed when first using the mount. If you mount while standing still it feels like there is a clunky delay before you can begin moving. However, if you mount while moving the delay isn’t there. Getting used to things like that will probably make the experience feel more fluid and less annoying.

Of course, YMMV. So far I am liking the feel of the raptor mount. It feels fast and the leap even without mastery improvements is quite nice. My biggest question comes down to the way maps are designed to make use of these mounts. I hope it doesn’t feel contrived, but rather fits in seamlessly the way gliding did with the HoT maps. I never felt like an obstacle was put in place simply to give me an excuse to use the glider. It just felt natural, if that makes any sense.

STIHL.2489:

Flatley.1620:

mbhalo.1547:

Djinn.9245:

I’m honestly curious: why do you list all those things and call yourself “casual”? I mean what version of “casual” allows you to accomplish all that and still think you are “casual”?

Because i don’t tryhard and farm, i play on my own laid-back pace.

I wish I could accomplish all that by not trying hard :/

Don’t mind people like them man, I mean think about it, 4000 hours translates to 15 hours a week ,every singe week, without fail, for the last 5 years straight, and that’s just played time, that would not include all the time they spent reading guides, meta build designing, on top of watching vids, and learning how to play.

You can’t take people like that seriously, I mean they even said “it’s a l2p issue” you don’t get any more elitist then that.

In fairness, it also includes time spent sitting around AFK in game while reading guides, watching videos, etc. So it probably evens out.

And 15 hours per week is pretty casual, honestly. That translates into a couple of hours per day…less than most people spend watching TV or BS’ing on the internet daily. Maybe you play less than that, but you don’t get to define the casual experience for everyone else any more than that guy does. The point being that speaking for casual players does not validate any of your points, because the fact is casuals are not a uniform group that play the way you do and share your views on the game.

bigchunk.5190:

Vertical maps were cool, but that was a feature that HOT explored. This expansion is going to do something different to make exploring Elonia unique. That villager said “you will need” the raptor. It’s not just going to be a way to travel over flat terrain quickly.

The question in my mind is whether they will succeed at making these mounts feel the way gliding felt. Gliding seemed a part of the HoT maps. It never felt contrived. As I leaped over trenches and broken bridges that seemed placed in my path simply to give me a reason to use the raptor’s leap ability, it did feel somewhat contrived. But I want to give it a fair chance because I do like the feel of the raptor mount so far.

Having said that, I definitely wish I had some hope of seeing vertically layered maps in the HoT style. As I said in numerous discussions on the topic prior to the expansion announcement, I’ve been hoping for a compromise: a mix of flat and vertical maps. Unfortunately, it appears vertical maps are out in PoF. And that’s a big letdown for myself and anyone else who loved HoT map design.

I realize plenty of people didn’t love HoT map design, but a compromise (a mix of flat and vertical maps) would have been preferred. Not to mention gliding was almost universally popular, and minimizing it as a factor was a risky move, in my opinion. I hope the mounts pay off as well as gliding did!

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

And for those that didn’t care for maps like VB or BF, I suppose it would be considered a blessing. If such maps were included, perhaps some would not consider purchasing.

No matter the design decisions, some will be thrilled, and others less so.

You’d think they would have learned from the mistake of designing maps all one way in an expansion. But I guess we’ll see what happens.

Djinn.9245:

AliamRationem.5172:

Snowywonders.1378:

Verdant Brink a “ginormous jump puzzles”
Draconis mons “impossible to travel without guides”

The worst part is these things are said as undisputable facts. It’s so sad. Hopefully Anet just ignores these trolls.

Yeah, VB is a “jump puzzle” because gliding into an updraft or jumping on to a bounce mushroom requires a great deal of proficiency, right?

Have you considered that players come into Verdant Brink with none of the masteries you are talking about? Clearly you haven’t.

Yeah, you’re right. I was one of the anointed few who was given access to all of the HoT masteries from the start. Lucky me!

So what does this have to do with the claim that VB is one gigantic “jump puzzle” exactly? The fact that you have to explore, play, and progress through the jungle was by design and I really don’t see how it precludes casual players at all.

Snowywonders.1378:

Verdant Brink a “ginormous jump puzzles”
Draconis mons “impossible to travel without guides”

The worst part is these things are said as undisputable facts. It’s so sad. Hopefully Anet just ignores these trolls.

Yeah, VB is a “jump puzzle” because gliding into an updraft or jumping on to a bounce mushroom requires a great deal of proficiency, right?

Draconis Mons is “impossible to travel without guides”…despite being basically a big open space that allows you to quickly reach a high point with the spiderman mastery and then glide down to virtually any point on the map.

Clearly, the people saying these things spent more than 5 minutes playing on these maps before reaching their conclusions.

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

Well, I guess the choice was to add HoT and charge the $50 dollars, or separate the purchases, and offer just PoF for $30. Considering the feedback last time that was tried, I can see why they went with this model.

In the Dev interviews, it sounded like there will be places where one might encounter some Gliding-specific mechanics, but that there would be other ways to traverse the content, as well. Probably should wait and see what the entire expansion and Living World Season 4 has to offer.

Again, nobody is saying that gliding won’t be a factor in the new maps. I’m sure there will be areas where gliding will allow you to bypass obstacles and/or reach objectives more directly. But the point is that they can’t design the maps to require gliding. Thus you will never see maps like VB or BF. They simply can’t design maps that way unless everyone has access to gliding. So, if that’s what you love then you will be disappointed to find that this will never be a part of PoF map design.

zealex.9410:

Did they ever say hot would go free when pof releases? I dont think so. And i would annoy me if they did. Its ok to have bundles for newcommers with a more fair price but goving stuff i payed for free other than the base game is an insult to the face.

How is that an insult? You played HoT for 2 years. I think you got your money’s worth.

This choice also doesn’t come consequence free. We’ve already discussed the way it forces the designers to work under the assumption that not all players will own all expansion content. But from the player perspective, it also segments the population. We saw this manifest in a major way in PvP, where the HoT elite specs all but destroyed the competitive atmosphere for non-HoT players. But moving forward, how annoying will it be to try to group with other players when we have multiple expansions and everyone owns different pieces?

Personally, I think they’d be better off including all previous content under the current purchase price and discounting that price to players who purchased previous content. Charge $50 for PoF, but only $30 if you purchased HoT, and maybe $20 if you purchased both HoT and the original game. Everyone is on the same page except people who didn’t pay anything at all.

I think more players would stick with the game and return to it it spend money in the cash shop this way, and it would be far less annoying to both players and developers.

I agree with the OP. The fact that not everyone who owns PoF will also own HoT (and features unique to HoT, such as gliding) means that they won’t be able to design content accordingly. So, while you can glide in the new maps, there will never be a map design in PoF that follows the HoT map design model.

If you hated the vertical HoT map design, then you can take comfort in the expectation that you won’t see any of that in PoF. However, if your favorite maps are maps like Verdant Brink and Bloodstone Fen, you can lower those expectations right now because you will never see that in PoF.

I am still looking forward to PoF, but knowing that my favorite map design elements are precluded by this choice is a major letdown for me.

D/D is my favorite set. I sure wish they would do something to help it become more relevant. It gets discouraging seeing patch after patch go by with no help for it.

I was kind of hoping for some off-hand dagger love. But nothing again. Oh well.

Yeah, I was scratching my head on that comment about ele being best at “damage, support, and survivability.”

I mean, ele can be pretty survivable and provides good support in PvP, but “best”? No. Even if they are capable of being the most survivable, the meta build sacrifices survival to provide that support. And they can’t deal damage effectively at all without sacrificing all of their survival and support. You can’t have it all at once, yet that seems to be what they’re suggesting.

In PvE I have no idea what they’re talking about. Ele is and has been a top damage dealer for some time now, as far as I know? Survival and support aren’t even on the menu and certainly not paired with damage!

I’m not commenting on whether the changes were appropriate. I think that depends upon how ele matches up to other classes and, of course, what happens with the release of the new elite specs. There are too many questions left to be answered to say, so I’m reserving judgment.

But their reasoning (i.e. “ele was best at everything”) seems way off.

First season in PvP here. I played d/d elementalist for all of my 233 matches. I placed 1207 and ended up at 1509, with a season high of 1557.

I started with a “selfish” build which felt very strong on survival and 1v1 battles, but didn’t provide sufficient team support. The result was that I couldn’t break out of gold 1. After switching to a team support/healer build (but still using dagger off-hand) I was able to climb to where I am currently.

I feel I was placed appropriately, and through practice and tweaks to my build I was able to advance. After spending the past few weeks bouncing around between upper gold 3 and low platinum 1, but never able to really break into upper platinum 1, I feel my current rating is a pretty accurate reflection of my skill level at this time.

I don’t know what next season will bring, what with a balance patch and a new expansion and elite spec on the way. If the meta doesn’t change significantly, my plan was to learn to use focus off-hand, watch some videos on proper rotation and the elementalist class role in PvP, and see if I can’t break into platinum 2 next season.

All in all, it was a fun ride and I learned a lot! So how did your season go?

I used to play WoW several years ago, and that’s where my expectations of MMO PvP developed. They have a system of diminishing returns such that each time you are hit by CC effects, it halves the duration of subsequent effects within a short window, until you are immune to further CC.

Obviously, GW2 doesn’t have DR and the result in team play is to pile on CC and burst enemies down quickly. On the other hand, clearing soft CC and instantly healing allies seems far less limited than I recall from WoW. There’s also the fact that GW2 is designed without dedicated healers in mind, so I feel like every class’s innate ability to heal themselves is at least somewhat stronger than it was in WoW.

It’s been years since I played WoW, so my memory of PvP there isn’t fresh (or current!), but I can’t say 5v5 team fights feel all that different here than they did there. A good team would lock down a target and focus them down to create a 5v4 advantage that quickly snowballed.

CC is a double-edged sword. It can be used to lock down and burst targets, but the opposing team can use it defensively to blunt your team’s burst. I’m sure the complaints ring true in that the burst is a bit higher than it should be at this point, but I’m not sure a drastic change in that sense is necessary or desirable.

What may be more meaningful is creating better opportunities for strategic play. Fewer passive/ancillary effects. For instance, I play ele and my overloads do about 20 different things from applying auras that also apply boons, clear condi, direct heal, to dealing damage and CC all at the same time. It isn’t very strategic when all we have are choices between abilities that do everything and other abilities that do everything, if you see what I mean.