Guild Wars 2

spoj.9672:

You are getting them mixed up Andele. 6/6 does more in an organised group. 6/2 is more dps in a pug group if you can maintain your lifeforce (which kind of makes it bad for both as its unreliable).

Andele.1306:

Also i have already debunked it above that neither line will result in more dps if everyone gets 100 (so 1+level/2+2% power – aka 2k+ on zerker build with bloodlust), you will with just 1 hit pre second from team guarantee more damage than close to death/5stack target the weak.

No idea what your trying to say here as i dont speak jibberish.

7.2k effective power (with a 5.4k dip over 10/60 giving average 6.9k power without counting downtime reduction with npc deaths) or on SR vs 6.4k effective power from 7+ condi curses (and please, tell me how often do you see any boss with even 7 condis up permanently.

OR if you want it in terms of numbers you got a nice average 6.4 vs 5.1k dps *on bosses in team setup, 4.2 vs 3.3 on average random mob *

P.S for the second, im saying giving the team additional 100 damage pre hit> you doing 5-10% more damage on your own attacks with that jibber being called math

Rennoko.5731:

Well currently a slyvari necro can do this with take root already. And that is an elite, so respectively I don’t think having it would be that overpowered. Consequently I wouldn’t take it as a utility or elite though, as standing there not taking damage is just a pretty pointless delay move. I would much prefer something that causes a de-target (ala feign death) and a poison/chill effect in a nova, on a resonably short cooldown.

The big problem is there is no de-target. People pick a necro, and spam skills till they die with classes that have super strong ranged attacks. With no detarget, unless we get out of range or break LOS, we just get continuously hammered. A detarget would at least make people have to locate us again.

Or DS2 could just drop target, which would be the best and easiest solution requiring no new skills.

Detargeting and invis are very cheap moves, but also worthless against at least 1/3 of the skills in game since they dont require targeting/can be used trough pure combat mode.

Dustfinger.9510:

Andele.1306:

Dustfinger.9510:

Carlos.7915:

I would love Longbow for ranged power and Sword for meele cleave dps

Agreed.

if a necro can wield a bow or a hammer then the arbitrary rules set by other games shouldn’t apply for what fits a necro. I would love a LB as well a a sword and GS.

Actually, GW1 rules do apply. Ranged weapons (that aint staff/scepter) and melee brute weapons (aka monk and mesmer weapons) cant be used by necros since they cant use their powers with them. IF we would need another source of ranged power (you know, except out freaking profession mechanic) the options would be limited to a) using a melee weapons as a ranged focusing equipment b) a rifle/automatic firepower.
Just as scepter/focus are like the lowest on the warrior equipment list, so are bow/shortbow on necro.

Actually, they don’t. a-net has stated that they are currentlly working on giving all weapons to all classes.

Weapons simply act as focus for casters. What in lore prevents one weapon from beign a focus and not another?

Actually no, again all red posts and talk about future content in terms of weapons wnt along like: http://massively.joystiq.com/2013/07/18/guild-wars-2s-colin-johanson-outlines-big-plans-and-course-cor/ Some more existing weapons, some new ones.

Lorelei.3918:

I know Longbow doesn’t have a chance. Anet loves their greatswords. I even made a ascended gs for the occasion. I’m a lb advocate though. Regardless of whether n/r actually used b ows..they could have. So therefore its incoorrect to say a necro “can’t” use a bow. Also further reference In east Asian cultures the bow is a ritual tool. I think if arguing against necrosis getting Longbow it should be less about style or lore and more about game mechanics. What does the necro need more? Melee cleave or ranged power?

a) everyone could use every tool, that doesnt mean that they could cast all (if any spells using said tools
b) Actually, no it does mean that necros cant feasibly use bows past anything but environmental weapons
c) No they aint, they are very heavy hunting and fight initiation tools, as were their uses in GW (aka pulling, burst and hit triggers), Axes and maces were at least used by healers and priests (for sadly obvious meat shop reasons).

Lorelei.3918:

What is this nonsense that Necro’s “can’t” use bows. Ranger/Necro was a viable combination in GW1 and vice versa. Not to mention Ritualist/Ranger… Also WoW has dark rangers. UO has Necro Archers.

But most importantly, GW2 needs a class that doesn’t suck with their longbow. (Warrior doesn’t count since they only use their longbow as a setup tool, not a primary damage dealer)

The necro is the ‘warrior’ of the caster classes. Everything we do is a magical variation of the warrior. Our class mechanic builds up a resource, and then uses it. We have the same HP pool. We actually have a melee weapon set. We’re the only caster that uses a friggin axe (albeit in a very stupid way). So if we get Longbow or GS we will still fit inside that Death Knight esque theme that Anet has given us.

Do i have to explain that (bad) touch ranger =/= necro (and even if they are counted as such, no sane touch ranger used any of the plethora of bows, since blood magic triggers on staves/wands/foci gave way bigger benefits than 2-3 shoddy ranged skills that dont get the benefits of true damage).

Same as hexway/discordway Nec/Mes Necr/Rit and Nec/Monk aint monks, mesmers nor ritualists.

Also we technically never hit the enemy with any physical attack.. ever
Mesmers actually hit a enemy with their movement (sword) and eles hit enemies with physical objects (*cough jebus stoning *). We just rip at them with life force or spirit bugs…

As mentioned melee control cleave weapon could work (be it hammer, GS or swords, last one being my personal preference because i wanna see how bolt aura works in DS), but even if its a ranged weapon, both rifle and pistols have a higher chance to be the next necro weapon than bows.

Bhawb.7408:

If they eventually fixed life stealing that could be an option for sPvP maybe, but it’d still be awful in PvE. PvE needs something you can get while still going dagger w/ 6/6/0/0/2

Except that 6/2/0/0/6 does more in a organized setup, if you ment that.
Also i have already debunked it above that neither line will result in more dps if everyone gets 100 (so 1+level/2+2% power – aka 2k+ on zerker build with bloodlust), you will with just 1 hit pre second from team guarantee more damage than close to death/5stack target the weak.

So suggested cdr/trigger changes (not SS/FITG, since those are bandaid buffs/fixes), healing, UW life blast on land (without condi transfer) and reapers might being buffed to negate range damage difference or give might in aoe pre life blast cast and functionally necros would have no problems in terms of optimized team setups in pve.

Harper.4173:

The Great Al.2546:

Harper.4173:

Terrible idea.
The difference between different armor types is minimal and it would create huge discrepancies in WvW and PvP.
This game isn’t only PVE. And even there a lot of things would have to be reworked.

There are many other less destructive ways to improve this game.

I understand that the game isn’t only PvE, but I did mark this thread as a PvE only suggestion.

Except you can’t have “PVE only” in GW2. No matter what you suggest it has to be across the board or it simply won’t work with the current balance policy.

That aside I still firmly believe that it’s a bad suggestion. Light/Medium classes have a lot of means to mitigate damage.

*cough necro cough *

Olba.5376:

Wiki says Blood Curse is 5 seconds.

Actually its 4s, same for rending curse, tho they both used to be 7s on beta, which was deemed too strong, tho they do go up to 5 1/4base with lingering curses.

Dustfinger.9510:

Carlos.7915:

I would love Longbow for ranged power and Sword for meele cleave dps

Agreed.

if a necro can wield a bow or a hammer then the arbitrary rules set by other games shouldn’t apply for what fits a necro. I would love a LB as well a a sword and GS.

Actually, GW1 rules do apply. Ranged weapons (that aint staff/scepter) and melee brute weapons (aka monk and mesmer weapons) cant be used by necros since they cant use their powers with them. IF we would need another source of ranged power (you know, except out freaking profession mechanic) the options would be limited to a) using a melee weapons as a ranged focusing equipment b) a rifle/automatic firepower.
Just as scepter/focus are like the lowest on the warrior equipment list, so are bow/shortbow on necro.

coglin.1867:

Sarrs.4831:

Necros don’t use multiple stunbreakers because you really just can’t fit them in.

Now I just don’t buy that. I do not say that purely in the context of necros either. I find that a weak reasoning, personally. Similarly, I have defended against cries to nerf necros condition out put when poster suggest they refuse to use more condition removals. As I see it, a player deserves to die quickly to condition damage when they refuse to use the tools available to them to counter them. You deserve to die quickly to direct damage builds when you claim you prefer to stack other stats, over taking toughness. You similarly deserve to die quickly to CC builds when you use the tools avaliable to you to counter them.

To suggest you cannot counter something, simply because you refuse to build for it because you prefer to build in other ways is a horrible reason to demand changes to any given profession.

Having said all that, I do think that when we look at all of the other professions as a while, all of the stun breakers on the necro seem to lean more towards a 6th cool down, and probably should be reduced to a 4s cool down. I know personally, I would much prefer that over losing something like my 25% movement rate increase.

Actually, unlike condi removal, the 2 stun breaks which are on necro and functional (Swalk and Sarmor) both make you extremely weak in AoE situations compared to engie who can then do the same thing you do but better with just the safety of Elixir S; on the other hand a bunker build with em will have the ability to just break out of 2 stuns pre 40, while for example a guard with StG will be immune to cc for 5/25.

I think that you get the picture especially when compared with the amount of blocks, invuls, evade moves and free teleports which other professions get.

Or they could make reapers might a not meh trait by making it also cause that LB doesnt lose as much damage when on full range, thus making DS power from high range compare to nades n ele staff.

BurrTheKing.8571:

Olba.5376:

The shortest bleed on a Necro is 5s, meaning that 20% is the minimum required to get a benefit.

Blood Curse 4 seconds untraited, Barbed Precision 2 seconds.

I’ve said enough.

Warriors also only has access to 3 damaging conditions: Bleeds, Torment, and Burning. Let’s compare that to what Necro has: Everything. The most dangerous condi skills that Warrior has are also highly telegraphed, Impale and Pin Down. To go further, both of those skills are single target (although sometimes you get a lucky pierce from Pin Down) Necro has the ability to spread their condis all over. You’re comparing apples to oranges here. [/quote]

Not to be the negative nancy, but necro dont have perma burn like warriors, they dont have confusion (nor do warriors) and they got 2 stacks of torment less on a higher cooldown, for that they get poison… yay, in terms of sheer damaging condis, warrior has actually higher dps, same as engie, the nice thing tho is that necros can control those condis post application better.

Still no excuse for unequal statistical traits (across all professions, looking even at stuff like Stick and Move vs Elusive Power).

spoj.9672:

I dont see how group lifesteal, healing, retal and prot would put necro on par with the other classes. Group lifesteal would be nice if it was accessible to dps builds. Prot is the only other useful thing in your list. We already have good prot access and we dont really need any more. Besides if you want prot you can just take a hammer guard. x)

I can tell you if any of your suggestions were introduced. Necro would still remain the the very bottom tier class in pve. They might be nice and fun for the casual player but they are essentially useless to anyone with even a moderate amount of experience.

Well:
a) Blood 25 gives power and power from spite 15 is turned into healing power, when added with zerkers 2k+ power and if it were 1+level/2+2% Power for damage (2% HP for healing), bloodthirst, well cd and said aura wifesteal trait would give 100% hps and boost burst with WoC/WoS
TLDR: you would do more damage on bosses, while helping the team dps more.
b) That was actually the point, if wells pulsed, hammer guard would be less of a pick over anything in terms of defense and would reduce the pressure of guards having to have/keep hammer as their second weapon set.
c) Pbond/SS/Fitg/MoE being just general beefing from selfish sub par for its slot to team helpful worth the trait spot buffs, small and insignificant in a dps race, yes, but also giving more options * same thing as how warriors got DWA, yes noone is gonna take it over crit chance/vuln and might on hit in a optimized setup, but it gave a reasonably competitive boost for other builds*
d) Unholy Martyr would just be a pvp and nub carry thing (aka phalnax strength, but on the defense for encounters like mai trin), since people dodge out of well of power for no reason and Plague signet is just annoying.

Bhawb.7408:

Andele.1306:

Like aura wifesteal?

It depends on how easily accessible it was. If it was a utility skill or elite (that didn’t lock us out of our skills) then yes, but if it required significant blood magic investment (and it would probably have to to be balanced) I don’t think it’d be worth the DPS loss of not having close to death or target the weak.

Well taking 100 pre hit, you would need a hit pre second with everyone in range on a target to make up your personal dps loss, while also giving healing for everyone (assuming 4.5k dps with average setup), tho it would need the team to have multi hits/2hits pre second if you are running a optimized group to equate to CtD (that is, without counting for frost spirit procs).

@Drarnor Kunoram.5180 – Torment comes in so many flavors; stealing your precious one is just one of em (others are Tshackles, thief, runes and sigils X3).

@spoj.9672 – if you ment my suggestions, if you take the actual statistical value of them, they would make necro on equal footing with thief (highest proactive dps with a projectile destruction and mass blinds for trash) and mesmer (utility of gods) for fractals in terms of beefing up/easing fights. Guard and Warrior still stuck on top since you cant compete with 5/25s stability and reflect/blocks & banner + 150 power n 14+ might while still dealing reasonable damage; ALL while enabling a bit more build diversity.
Being on the top of the food chain in raw power doesnt actually make you the apex predator, if it did, hippos elephants and sharks would be natures apex predators, instead of dear old reptiles (aka komodo dragons, crocs and snakes), the tiny insects (with guys like mosquitos killing about the same amount of people as cars/2 mill +/-) and the true master of intellect and stategy the human (said cars which in a year murder more of our own kind than all the ancient American civilizations managed to trough ritual sacrifice on all historical accounts and finds).

Bhawb.7408:

We need unique buffs. Boons and just general healing don’t cut it, we’d need something that no one else can give, and it has to be (at least somewhat) offensive in nature.

Like aura wifesteal?

Chain list:
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Parasitic_Bond – heals allies in 600 range for total of 1k hp (thus 5 people is 200 each, if its you solo you get the full 1k)

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Spiteful_Spirit – duration increased by 1 and it applies to all allies
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Foot_in_the_Grave – same as above

Any vamp trait made into GM which gives your wifesteal healing to allies

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mark_of_Evasion – CD removed

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ritual_of_Protection – pulsing protection

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Unholy_Martyr – working on 4 targets, condis pulled are with increased duration, but reduced efficiency

Mix of 4-5 of these and you got a instantly pve (fractal) viable offensive support.

Or we just get the facetanking ability we are described to have with its appropriate sustain and we just play the linchpin of the group letting zerkers be more carefree with their options into max damage.

Simon.3794:

Light armor and medium already have tons of damage migation, that’s why you see them in dungeons or playable in pve.

Tell that to necro which have 2 aoe blinds on 40+ cooldowns and around 15s of protection pre 50s with 0 vigor, 0 evade moves, 0 blocks and 0 teleports (and no pre casts aint counted as teleports).

Condition duration, tho you mostly get it from non gear sources and indirectly precision, because a lot of conditions have on crit triggers (like barbed precision and sigil of torment).
Terrormancers are viable in everything but dungeons (they kinda work in most fractals, tho only for nub groups which need breathing time vs mobs, fearing aint good when organized).
Best support is well necro with protection, best suited is to just bloody slaughter your way trough or if you do fractals a lot, be the kite/aggro guy (since well of darkness, DS, Lich/plague let you help the team trough more annoying situations)

Overall recommended for pve would be the DS DPS (tho spojs red stickied build works way better for only pugging) http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fRAQNAW3djc00SbRN+0whbiahC6EIAmho6AqbjzoaB-ThRBwAX3fU+dT9HU6G0cRAA8EAMrEMAACATciTciTciBA-e

Leeto.1570:

90% of players are just selfish, they dont care about the game they just care about themselves.
Engi can rek most of classes but gets destroyed by necro, you think they want to be more balanced against most classes and have better chances against necro? No they just want necro to be nerfed.
Theres perfect example of this atm in spvp section where someone pointed out the obvious thing that strength runes are OP, warrs just excuse that its only way how to deal with bunkers/condi classes, they dont care about all those people who play zerker builds and get bursted down by classes who play borderline bunkers like soldier warr or celestial ele.

Well soft counters are actually supposed to be a thing in game, tho the question here is which one should and shouldnt actually counter.

IMO the typical: DPS>Tank>Burst>DPS triange (in concept, ofc its actually something like http://img571.imageshack.us/img571/6489/00025599.jpg) should apply since it has been mathematically been proven to be the best (for D&D at least)

In terms of League characters (can do dota comparison too, but im both too lazy to look up the changed names for dotz 2 and league is the more popular game) id put the professions based on the original/post descriptions (aka not how they actually function in game sadly):
Necro – Cho gath/Thresh (additional tie ins with Rene and Heca)
Warrior – Udyr/Olaf (tie ins with Trynda and Yi)
Mesmer – Shaco/Leblanc (tie ins with Kass and Lulu)
Engie – Kayle/Elise (tie ins with Heimer and Ori)
Ranger – Yorick/Quinn (tie ins with Nidalee and Vayne)
Thief – Zed/Twitch (tie ins with Teemo and Fiora)
Guardian – Their Broham/Maokai (tie ins with Malphite and Pantheon)
Ele – Zyra/Ahri (tie ins with Soraka and Kennen)

This thread can be TLDRed into:
“Hey i use scissors and i dont like how brokenly strong rock is, especially when my teammates aint playing as a team.”
The amount of leaps in logic should earn him a gold on the “mental gymnastics” event.

BTW, for those saying guard prot from hammer is op, think a bit about the tools a mesmer sword has~ Totally not saying its a hard counter.

Bhawb.7408:

All you need is 4/4/0/6/0, or 6/2/0/6/0, lifesteal food, sigil of blood on axe, leeching on two warhorns, and the lifesteal traits. you want as much precision as possible but there is a video of a guy doing it naked so its not super important.

Kinda, he does have 50+ crit chance and is constantly tapping DS for fury.

May i just note: BEING A SOFT MINDED BOOKAH with a bad build =/= having balance of giving all professions a equal OPTIONAL footing in terms of reducing and avoiding damage (which is why i suggest reworking Foot in the Grave, thus having a cost related to gaining stability/cc immunity).

Also your quite kittenty build still has on average 5 evades pre 30 seconds from 0 endurance, while necros got 3.
Thats 2 more immunities and if i may mention, reliable and non survival cost related 1/3 uptime stealth.

On equal footing you still outsurvive a necro.

Soldiers will end up with around 400 (with exur runes)/700 more power at optimal stats, but with around 8k less hp.
AKA you trade around 13-15% damage for 13-15% more survivability depending on build.

In dungeons its very much the case because most attacks which work with weakness and/or doing overkill you twice over are too weak for weakness to make a notable difference.

There is Force, Accuracy, Fire and Air for power builds (necros getting the included Energy and Hydromancy as viable offensive picks because more time for pew pew/less death) just pick any (for WvWvW id guess Force and Fire would work the best).

Bhawb.7408:

Andele.1306:

Tho the suggestion of putting vampiric as a master (or even grandmaster, then putting deathly invigoration as the master major and vamp rituals as a master major) with 100 effective hps on one target when traited would make it a true build… or as mentioned making vampiric traits mutually exlusive/unlock vamp procs on different types of attacks thus letting the devs balance the numbers for 1v1 with a single trait and then others being effective buffs in the same way as you can further trait up a weapon/utility/profession mechanic.

I think my biggest issue is just if vampiric is a minor trait, it needs to be good for all builds. Our good minors are like this, whereas Vampiric has such a wide swing between anything with wells/WH and basically everything else (I think the rest of our weapons are actually basically even after doing some quick math).

An ICD is just I think the solution to keep vampiric as a minor trait and good for everyone, while the major traits allow you to specialize into a full siphoning build (since the tree has a whole lot more than just siphoning). Of course you could give something else that is useful to everyone there, and then have vampiric be a master major trait. But an ICD would basically say “vampiric is your 1v1 trait, rituals is your teamfight trait”.

Both work, just different ways, and both should allow vampiric builds to work in different ways.

If they make vampiric rituals work on everything that is a aoe/works as current vampiric but with its own numbers, tho that would just be as said, moving over vampiric and replacing the 15 blood trait.

Roe.3679:

Cogbyrn.7283:

Instead of ALT-F4ing, you need to step up as a representative of the Necro class and argue your case reasonably with logical, objective discourse. At the very least, simply share your concerns based on your experience without any finger-pointing or claiming OTHER classes are OP.

A simple claim of “OP” from a few random members of a large-group forum are to be expected for literally every class in the game. The devs are going to see right through it. They want real information, real experience, real perspective. If I were to gather feedback from a crowd like that, the first people I’d ignore are the ones who throw the acronym “OP” around without any other input.

Which is what the devs do.

Even on the forums I’m starting to write off people as bad players unwilling to get better with some of the things they say regarding my class, playstyle, etc. “conditions are OP” is fun, at high level solo queue most people seem to do fine against my conditions, even though I would love to condibomb as hard as I allegedly can. “2nd health bar” is my favorite, as they don’t see DS as anything other than HP, rather than an opportunity to use CC or apply conditions.

A few quotes about it:

“Only the wisest and stupidest of men never change.” (in context tho, a person so wise that he cannot exist)

“The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity.”

“Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and the thing about the universe aint even sure.”

“Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and consciencious stupidity.”

“A stupid man’s report of what a clever man says can never be accurate, because he unconsciously translates what he hears into something he can understand.”

“Evil isn’t the real threat to the world. Stupid is just as destructive as Evil, maybe more so, and it’s a hell of a lot more common. What we really need is a crusade against Stupid. That might actually make a difference.”

NovaanVerdiano.6174:

If this is true, I’m just going to stop believing in ANet.
This would be the epitome of ridiculousness.

Actually, yes, unlike every other item which looks the same across weights (on land aquabreather, gas mask, dragon horns, etc) Monocle requires you to get one of each armor weight.

Did it (8 orb, AGAIN, yay for bugs during initial release) with mostly PVT (ascended zerker trinkes but backpiece since im too lazy to swap em between characters), tho had to use rabid S/D since axe didnt sodding wanna work on gravity orbs.
Over the flame legion arena, energy food, leeching sigil on S/D while energy hydromancy on staff, the karka 150 toughness nourishment 0/0/4/4/6 traits, chain fearing, WoD/WoP/SoL and Lich form ofc.

Tho arenas and hitboxes are still as buggy as always.

Bhawb.7408:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

In that case, would you be in favor of Vampiric getting an ICD, but Vampiric Precision continuing without and both getting buffed significantly (especially in the healing power department)? I’m still not convinced that Vampiric needs an ICD, but being that trait alone, I can kind of understand.

Regardless, Vampiric would always provide a benefit to any build that has at least 3 points in Blood Magic. Protection of the Horde did not do the same as it was tied to a skill type.

Sure. I think its reasonable that precision could be tied to more niche uses like the other two.

PotH might have been a bad example, but Jagged Horror (if we leave aside the buggy issues where it actually made content harder) is a similar example where it did “technically” help all builds, but it was vastly stronger in one build than every other because of the multipliers that one specific build got.

Except that it only did something after you already won.
Tho the suggestion of putting vampiric as a master (or even grandmaster, then putting deathly invigoration as the master major and vamp rituals as a master major) with 100 effective hps on one target when traited would make it a true build… or as mentioned making vampiric traits mutually exlusive/unlock vamp procs on different types of attacks thus letting the devs balance the numbers for 1v1 with a single trait and then others being effective buffs in the same way as you can further trait up a weapon/utility/profession mechanic.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

The sad thing is that it really wouldn’t take much to bring them up to par. 300 health/second may be lower than the passive regeneration that other professions can achieve, but it is accompanied (usually) with life force gain. That said, since other professions have active defenses that we simply lack, perhaps bumping the target number to 350/second is more in line, especially as the necro must make investments not only in traits and gear, but also in actions to get those returns.

Just to mention, with minimap investment, Engie, Warrior, Ele and Guard all got efficiently 500 hps (warriors having the a guarantee of 498 pre second with adrenal and signet, its scaling being 10% of healing power, instead of 2%); others actually have to work a bit.

*whoop edit since i got adrenal wrong, still tho a nice 498 pre sec

How about liadris title itself? the Concealing Dark, twould be fun thing to have on a necro.
Tho if i had to decide between them putting a title on it and doing stuff like fixing the camera, removing rubberbanding effects, adding fov sliders or in general basic PC game options, id always pick the second.

Nick.6972:

As I said earlier in different thread.
If I could beat Liadri on Laptop, low settings, with zerg bellow me, playing on NA server from EU with Clearic armor and Zerker accessories on Guard.
Excuses of bad people.
Maybe you should play sPvP or heck, even WvW, to improve your fighting skills.
PvE zerglings crying over “not easy spam 1 auto attack while eating tacos” content.

a) its not really such a pain to beat her, its a pain to get the 8 orb achivement with invis mobs

b) the fight is tho about gear very much, you need a specific level of dps and at least 2k toughness/some regen to keep you up for a while

c) guard pve builds have innately 6 free blocks against her instakills.

Poplolita.2638:

You assume way too much… Why don’t you try to prove him wrong with actual arguments, instead of using ad hominem? I’m one of those posters who enjoy reading other people ideas without really posting; but please don’t make it uncomfortable to read this thread/discussion.

I have proven it with examples above, (e.g. Priests, both in holy and shadow spec, Death knights with blood spec, Necros in EQ across the board, in game spectral skills, in game minion master vs warrior sustain comparison and if you want i can count off tempest warriors in rift, old wow pally builds, basic 3.5 d&d and multiple examples from league of legends, dragon age, dota, Diablo 2, older FF games/JRPGs in general) thats why im so kittened off since noone has read them or bloody bothered to google if they dont get what was said.

Narkodx.1472:

Andele.1306:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Here’s the thing, though: we don’t have… siphon siphon icd talk…

Look dude, just ignore ManaCraft, he has shown that he has no prior mmo experience and that he does not understand the issue at hand.

You are the one that needs to be ignored. Who cares how many years of MMO experience you have. Seriously. Who? You are not a developer and neither of us are either. The amount of years you wasted on WoW raiding and being hardcore does not make your arguments anymore valid than anyone elses.

Bhawb.7408:

People with prior MMO experience were the ones who made the game. It doesn’t mean kitten all that you played a few other games.

Actually, no, experience and knowledge of a topic does in fact make ANYONE WHO HAS IT, their arguments valid, unlike ones made without it.

Allowing people which have no knowledge or investment in a topic to talk and have a opinion without lashing back at them when saying stupid things is why the US is in such a massive debt, its why the freaking kitten party was allowed to survive the first world war and its why slavery among many other kitten things in human history happened (and thats just taking non religious examples).

And as shown on the topic and with how this game was developed, both a lot of the devs and a nice bit of the playerbase has no such knowledge nor such experience of it.

Thus why we are at this problem of necro siphons being sub par even to regeneration effects, despite its trade of reliability.
For example D&D, Magic and Yugioh all have (had… its going whack now with kittenty people leading their design teams) all nice formulas for base power and allowed variations from it.
For example a spell which triggers a aoe explosion, but requires melee range, should by default have one of the following; cooldown, damage, aoe radius, secondary effects, use time pre rest; higher than one able to be cast from range.
OR all such skills are by default melee, with the option to gem/skill upgrade/perk it to a ranged spell, thus having to sacrifice potential cooldown, damage, radius, secondary effects or usage count for it.
That is called resource balance (or for magic power ratio/for YGO levels) which when combined with set regulations which dictate the resource usage which allows appropriate deviation (aka mana curve/level scale) allow for different but gameplay balanced fights (aka you can have colors/different archtypes).

If you thus have any suggestion for life siphoning which wasnt previously stated, feel free to mention them, but be warned since the bloody harsh fist of science will slash idiocy like “internal cooldowns on offensive sustain are a good thing” into smithereens.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Here’s the thing, though: we don’t have… siphon siphon icd talk…

Look dude, just ignore ManaCraft, he has shown that he has no prior mmo experience and that he does not understand the issue at hand.

djooceboxblast.9876:

Blackmoa.3186:

Thought I’d post what my build does and how it works in tpvp. Its just a simple tpvp match with guildies.

don’t see how thats relevant, you played against bad players and didnt get focused even once and it’s already established that necro does well in that situations.
also pls stop walking backwards all the time and clicking skills

Way too many players including necromancers have bad mechanics in that regard. Unbind your ‘run backwards’ and ‘turn’ keys and learn to use your mouse and strafe keys. You are only doing yourself a favor and will become a better player in the long run.

Hey i like my rp walk, my sheathe weapons and funny inefficient turning for casual walks on the beach!

(but yeah seriously tho people need to stop keyboard turning).

Carighan.6758:

Velektrian.5491:

Pick 1 like everyone else…

Oh oh, that’s a fun game!

Mesmers

• Clones
• Phantasms
• Shatter
• Mantras

Engineers

• Kits
• Toolbelt
• Turrets

Rangers

• Pet control
• Skills also affecting the pet
• Traps
• Spirits

All classes have a fair few unique mechanics. This is NOT the same as the “class mechanism”, which is what is on your F-keys.

Clones and Phantasams are the same thing called Illusions, of which can be 3 and they fuel their profession mechanic, ok so 2

Engies got Tollbelt and kits, again just 2

Rangers got pets and their fused skills, again 2

Warriors got a higher weapon count with bursts, again 2

Guards have the definition of blocking and virtues, again 2

Necros got DS and lifesiphons (tho they are so pathetic it shouldnt even count), so 2

Thieves got: Stealth openers, the definition of blinks, steal, dual skills, 0 cooldowns on weapon skills (which combined with blink means they are efficiently immune to chill and cripple)… yeah please do not try to argue that thieves are not the mechanics favorite of a-net *that does not mean favorite profession nor OP, just that thieves do get the best of the most efficient in terms of mechanics *

Pets/effective dps buffs nor delayed/trigger aoes aint unique, every profession has them in one form or another.

Energy sigils or the endurance regen food lets you do it fairly easily with the dagger build too.
Tho as mentioned the fight was 40% knowledge of the fight, 40% luck with camera not bugging out, 19% build and 1% your specs/graphical options menu.

No for 2 reasons:
R/N from GW1 being the equivalent of a bearbow/permastealth thief/PU mesmer/Sissyrun warrior

We are lacking in the melee control department more than in the power ranged one and our profession mechanic kinda does define that point.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Andele.1306:

You know you just made not only zealots the only build necros will be able to go, but also buffed the minions zerker for pvp to all hell.

These changes would make Zealot’s a build to go, not “the” build. It wouldn’t be very different than healing signet Zerker warrior in healing, except less armor and less damage.

With the buff to Vampiric Precision, though, it might want to get moved to Master tier (Quickening Thirst could get moved down). That would even solve the issue of MM builds nabbing it and getting possibly too much sustain.

@alamore: Bhawb knows a few things about MM.

Well it would for wvwvw and fractal necro in most cases, maybe with a mix of clerics.
Vamp skills cannot be left as a stacking option, balancing them on playstyle (so vampiric as like a 70 base on power build for normal hits, vamp master with its current 80 pre minion and VP moved to master and with around 90~100 pre crit) would allow both for better control and easier to control if a specific build goes op.

Personally, my vision of a necro sword is like the UW spear/Dagger, attacking, but that actual hits connecting trough special spectral effects at a bit higher range than the actual physical attack (and for sword id use the ripple like effects you see on DS Axe aa and spear 1c) in a cone; think cho gath feral scream, but green and more ripple like.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

I disagree that ICD’s are necessary to balance siphons at all. It’s simple enough to choose a target number for siphon/second and get an expected number of procs per second against a single target.

Those last few words are very important. If there are multiple targets, it means more incoming damage, thus, more siphoning is required to sustain. The beauty of generic “on hit” effects with no ICD is that they naturally scale with what you’re fighting.

I am actually going to ammend my siphon suggestion in the OP. My proposed values are as follows:
All siphoning traits: scaling with healing power increased to 2%
Base heal values:
Vampiric Precision: 88
Vampiric: 35
Vampiric Master: As-is (with improved scaling)
Vampiric Rituals: 80

My target average number was 300 siphoned health per second from a single target wearing a PVP celestial amulet (above average healing power, but not dedicated). On average, a necro dedicated to hitting as fast as possible will probably net around 3 hits/second. Figuring 50% crit chance for Vampiric Precision, although more accurate values would be around 45%.

Here is my reasoning behind those numbers.
1. Vampiric didn’t get much of a change because of its position as a minor trait as well as the overall lack of investment needed to use it. It’s a kicker for those builds going into Blood Magic, but not focusing on siphoning.

2. Vampiric Precision got a massive buff. The reason is twofold: one, it requires heavy investment into Precision as well as Healing power to make it work at peak efficiency, two, the only other option for sustained siphoning, Vampiric Master, is typically not used in builds with high precision. Critical hits are always rarer than “hits,” and this trait helps pick up the slack to reach the target 300.

3. Vampiric Master does not need much of a buff. Assuming ~3 hits/second from a full compliment of minions, it plus Vampiric are close to meeting that target number. The improved scaling alone will do it.

4. Vampiric Rituals is a funky one. Due to the nature of wells, it operates more as a “burst siphon” trait. Combined with its Grandmaster status, and this trait needs to pack a punch. Since it is realistically mutually exclusive to Vampiric Master for effectiveness, the two can be balanced almost completely independent of one another.

Once multiple opponents start getting hit by the necro’s attacks, the natural increase in siphon effectiveness will help offset the increased damage, even if it is incidental AoE instead of focused on the necro.

So, corner cases:
A MM picks up Vampiric Precison instead of Transfusion, Mark of Evasion, or Bloodthirst. This means the necro must invest into a Precision amulet, meaning he gives up overall survivability and/or damage. In addition, his ability to heal his minions is greatly reduced. If he attempts to take Vampiric Precision and Transfusion, then he gives up Vampiric Master (problem solved) or Fetid Consumption (the whole reason to go 6 in Blood as a MM) for more sustain. Even so, his siphons would hit ~450 healing per second and only if the target wasn’t evading/blocking/invulnerable. Even stealth would drastically reduce his siphons as the minions all stop attacking.

I honestly can’t think of other corner cases that might get problematic, but it’s just after midnight here as I post this. Worst that happens that I can see? We start seeing Magi’s necros (lol) or Celestial necros (more build variety!)

You know you just made not only zealots the only build necros will be able to go, but also buffed the minions zerker for pvp to all hell.

Bhawb.7408:

It affects very little without the bursts, because they rely on multi-hits. Bone Minions in sPvP 1v1s will generally only hit 1, and flesh golem will also only get a few hits (without bugging, it is only 3-5 ticks, which isn’t a whole lot compared to the amount of hits he loses by flying so far away from the target). So the bursts only actually help in AoE situations, where your minions are losing out on procs anyway.

In this game, ICDs are absolutely necessary on vampiric and vampiric precision. ANet cannot make them meaningful in realistic situations as long as you can have situations where you are procing 50+ siphons per second.

Except that Spectral skills, Projectile finishers, Signet of Restoration
Signet of Restorationand Signet of Malice AND every single regen in game prove that it aint true.
While signet of vampirism, spectral skills, the nerfed evasive arcana, etc all show why ICDs butcher said sustain builds (even if they arent offensive, tho some were required).

Bhawb.7408:

Andele.1306:

Look i cant bother kittening around with someone who has bloody little to noone mmo history who actually does the assumptions, I KNOW FORM EXAMPLES, which trough 5 (7 if you count side scrolling) MMORPGs that icds on offensive sustain, no matter what kind, dont work.

And yet MM, the only build we have that works with sustain, effectively has an ICD on its vamp trait.

Difference is, its not functionally offensive, as in it doesnt rely on your or the enemy input, it relies on ai (and a overwhelming amount of it if i may add).
In terms of actual gameplay function a MM necro might as well just get adrenal healing and heal signet passive in terms of reliability.

Tho it does fall under the first requirement of sustain with ICDS, with both Blood Fiend (which is 40-50% of the MMs sustain) being a weaker heal sig and Vamp Master being 60% stronger in both offense and defense (and unlike vampic and VP which need such a boost) with average 5 minions out to push the hits that is quite the competitive amount of sustain just from those traits without any bonuses.

THO It does prove my claim of ICDS ruining stuff, imagine now if you couldnt do mini heal bursts using bone minions and golem~

ManaCraft.5630:

You assume too much.

Look i cant bother kittening around with someone who has bloody little to noone mmo history who actually does the assumptions, I KNOW FORM EXAMPLES, which trough 5 (7 if you count side scrolling) MMORPGs that icds on offensive sustain, no matter what kind, dont work.

If you are running fractals and arah, energy is kinda mandatory on both staff and your second set weapon, otherwise a multiplier like force, if you wanna bother with it bloodlust (which i would recommend waiting for buying more than 1 till the patch at the 20th because of potential fix), hydromancy is a good option if you go dagger (it also deals decent aoe damage).
Accuracy works but if going that way a 6/2/0/0/6 build will push out more damage in a pre made team.
Battle, Strength, Air and Blood work for pugging (would recommend fire since you pull kitten with it)
Night despite being the best multiplier is only up for like 10/23 options (that is including fractals, its a no brainer for just normal dungeons since everything except CM/HotW and Arah are night).

For runes Scholar or if you are insecure stuff like Wurm, Ogre (careful tho, the dog is quite aggressive), Flame Legion (7% on burning foes is pretty much guaranteed since more than half the professions have innate burning on pve setups), Eagle, Air, Rage all work in boosting dps for a nice amount.

How to win against necro: dodge when they wave their hand above the head, dont be a idiot and walk into wall/marks, dodge them evading the effect/popping them, have about 2 conditions pre 10 seconds in terms of condi removal or a immunity/block effect to use on initiation. THEN proceed to ping pong the living kitten out of them.
Also do not be a idiot and spam condis if you see them have dagger offhand or plague signet.

There is truly no secret to nomming the easiest to chunk profession in game, tho they are dangerous if you aint prepared for them, as is anyone with burst.

musu.9205:

Lich form with 180 cd isn’t even good as a staff ele .Also you can strip that stability or steal it then cc that huge free kill target. MM necros usually run power tank build not condition .
Necros do have some ridiculous stuff like signet of spite ,MM and 1200 range instant cc .And yes they do have a pretty low skill floor and skill cap comparing other classes.But that’s not balance issue.

Actually they got a higher skill ceiling than anything except engie because of their very lacking and very limited vigor/stability and 0 blocks evade moves invuls and combat blinks.

DeceiverX.8361:

CC hits everyone like a train when it hits. That’s why necros have that nice health pool + death shroud. My characters get CC’ed, and I die. I main:

Actually no they dont, just on ranger you got: GS evade, GS Block, Shorbow evade, Sword evade, the second sword evade, Axe projectile reflection, Dagger evade, tSoStone, tSoWild, Lightning Reflexes, Rampage as One, Primal Reflexes, Vigorous Renewal, Enlargement and Vigorous Training.
ANY of it can be used to efficiently give you at least 1 more dodge/more immunity than necro can ever hope to.

flow.6043:

Bhawb.7408:

We have the highest raw healing of any profession in the game if traited for it

That’s just not true.

Actually it is true, having both the highest base aoe heal effect pre tick and 4.4 healing power ratio on it.
Only thing stronger than it is the guardian tome instaheal which actually doesnt have a scaling since its a plain 100% heal.
Ofc if you combine multiple skills on water fields to blast finish you can potentially get higher healing, tho its wasting multiple skills on something which 1 skill could do about as well AND wasting might stacks trough fire fields.