Guild Wars 2

In wvw it’s a big deal. I’ve been in many, many fights where I won or lost by only a few hundred health.

DeadSign.1942:

Multiple accounts means you need to spend money or am I missing something?

That’s why I said they need to start permanently banning accounts… Once you start hitting people’s pockets they stop doing that…

This situation needs to be solved before the game eventually goes free to download… Once that happens hell will unleashed.

Yes, ban people so they stop giving anet money.

Treeline.3865:

Archon.6481:

1) I never said skill had anything to do with sparkles.
2) Do you think it’s unfair some people have lambourghinis and you don’t?
3) I would like to point out that coin collectors can’t collect evey coin either. Neither can car collectors. Or stamp collectors. Or almost any other real life collection.
4) Making minis inexclusive would completely ruin the prestige of having it. Do you know how annoyed I would be if you could just buy liadri off the TP instead of working for it like I did?

And don’t say that lambourghinis are fine because you can buy them if you save enough money. For the average person that would take decades.

Your logic is flawed however. We can all buy lamboughinis, it might be a long term goal but it IS possible. Some of us have spent a year completing our collections. It was crazy hard, but it WAS possible! Making them inexclusive ruins nothing – There are still things you need to do to get them. If you couldn’t beat Liadri it’s not complete. Unless you have completed a lot of achievements it is incomplete. If you have not been able to grind the Molten dungeon or come up with 60G it is not complete. It has been possible to collect every mini and some of them are very rare by now. Look at the mini karka for example. It is not about having the resources to complete the collection, it’s about whether it is possible or not. And Anet has now released a mini you CAN’T get within the game.

No we cannot all eventually afford a lambourghini. I’m pretty sure there are people in 3rd world countries who are struggling to afford food, let alone a car. Those people will never make enough money in their whole life to afford a lambourghini.

Being inexclusive ruins nothing? Lets just do everything like spvp and give away as many copies of whatever armor, minis, or legendary you want because being inexclusive ruins nothing.

I would feel cheated if liadri was sellable on the tp. If you can’t beat liadri then you don’t deserve the mini. And no, not everyone is skilled enough to beat liadri. Some people’s skill cap is flat out lower than hat required to beat liadri.

So it’s just a variation of the build I’ve been using since day 1?

I’m on L49

I swap between weapons depending on what fractal I’m doing.

Ascalon is S/D + Shortbow
Snowblind is D/D + Shortbow
Grawl/Volcanic is S/D + Shortbow
Cliffside is S/P + D/P (Swap for SB for arch diviner)
Harpy is D/D + Shortbow
Dredge is S/D + Shortbow
Swamp is D/D + Shortbow

Not to mention how often I change my utilities/heal depending on what I’m doing

Mistress Elemental.3750:

Archon.6481:

I suppose some of you people are upset you can’t get the liadri mini because yore not skilled enough too?

You all are severely overreacting. There is nothing wrong with having an incomplete set. There is no such thing as having a complete coin collection. It would cost millions of dollars and even if you did have the money, some coins are so rare you’ll probably never be able to find one or find a seller. But if you collect, then you should know good and well that for some coins, you’re just out of luck. Same with Mr. sparkles.

You can’t ask anet for what you’re demanding. What if anet releases more skill based minis or tournament minis like in gw1? Going to complain that you are entitled to pvp minis even though you don’t want to pvp?

Yes, I agree maybe its “unfair” how Mr. sparkles was distributed, but there is nothing wrong with having exclusive minis. It’s not unfair that some people have lambourghinis parked in their garage and you don’t.

Clearly not a collector. Even people like me who had soo much trouble getting the Liadri mini (Being that an elementalist as my main) finally got it after lots of hard work and trying different things. This would be different if the mini was not account bound. How does me being skilled have anything to do with being required to Fly to Germany or go to a PAX convention to get the mini?

At least in GW1 there was a way to trade for them (how ever little chance there was to do so) but in this case, they are account bound so unless you do those two things, there is no way for us to get them(assuming that is what is needed to get them). That is the BIG difference between what we are talking about vs what you are talking about. Why make in game items that are collectable but only certain people can collect. That is why we are fuming.

1) I never said skill had anything to do with sparkles.
2) Do you think it’s unfair some people have lambourghinis and you don’t?
3) I would like to point out that coin collectors can’t collect evey coin either. Neither can car collectors. Or stamp collectors. Or almost any other real life collection.
4) Making minis inexclusive would completely ruin the prestige of having it. Do you know how annoyed I would be if you could just buy liadri off the TP instead of working for it like I did?

And don’t say that lambourghinis are fine because you can buy them if you save enough money. For the average person that would take decades.

I suppose some of you people are upset you can’t get the liadri mini because yore not skilled enough too?

You all are severely overreacting. There is nothing wrong with having an incomplete set. There is no such thing as having a complete coin collection. It would cost millions of dollars and even if you did have the money, some coins are so rare you’ll probably never be able to find one or find a seller. But if you collect, then you should know good and well that for some coins, you’re just out of luck. Same with Mr. sparkles.

You can’t ask anet for what you’re demanding. What if anet releases more skill based minis or tournament minis like in gw1? Going to complain that you are entitled to pvp minis even though you don’t want to pvp?

Yes, I agree maybe its “unfair” how Mr. sparkles was distributed, but there is nothing wrong with having exclusive minis. It’s not unfair that some people have lambourghinis parked in their garage and you don’t.

If you take away stealth stomping then ill simply black powder stomp you.

Regardless, you got downed. You clearly must’ve gotten outplayed. Stop whining when you should already be dead anyways.

1. This build is worthless in anything larger than 1v1

2. These players suck

Lokki.1092:

TooBz.3065:

Compare to a guardian (the proclaimed slowest class). The guardian gets 8 seconds of swiftness every 15 seconds with the staff. That’s 7 seconds of normal movement and 8 seconds of swiftness (7*300+8*400=>5300 units / 15 seconds or an average speed of 353 units / second.

So even a guardian is faster than a mesmer.

Note: I was using only a weapon skill. However, blink gives 900 units of movement every 30 seconds, so an additional 30 u/s (provided you are willing to waste it on movement.) However, if we’re wasting utilities, the Guardian as retreat which provides 33% additional uptime of swiftness. So the Guardian will still win.

If you as a mesmer cannot outrun a guardian in combat you are seriously screwing up. I’m sorry but as a guardian myself I can outright say that any class that wants to can just leave combat with us. It is a source of major annoyance for us. Don’t go trivializing our problems with speed because you want to make your class seem slower. Mesmers and guardian are in the same boat when it comes to out of combat movement speed. but Guardians don’t have stealth, blinks, clones, and portals. Mesmers are currently one of the hardest classes to catch in combat because of this, even perm swift elementalists and engineers are hard pressed to keep up with a mesmer who wants to get away.

That is the reason you don’t have a perm 25% boost to movement speed. Compare apples to apples man. Elementalists cant disappear or create clones, they have to move faster. Basic stuff here.

I’m pretty sure thieves can escape combat better than any other class. They too have a 25% movement speed signet.

sirflamesword.3896:

Archon.6481:

ozmaniandevil.6805:

Sorry, but regardless of whether you play mmorpg or any other video game, there is always a goal to reach … or there is no fun or sense of accomplishment. My hubby loves his xbox. He plays all the games he likes to unlock ACHIEVEMENTS. You might play a game for a few hours without some type of reward, but i dont’t think you would play for 500 hours. I love GW2, but part of what i like is having the chance for loot and achievements.

Have you happen to have played any FPS’s before by any chance? I do believe those games have nothing to strive for. I have thousands of hours into TF2 and got nothing for it.

FPS’s have competitiveness to strive for. Being better than someone else, its basically what loot does in this game.

Well why can’t there be competitiveness in an MMO? Skill exists in MMO’s just as much as it does in FPS’s.

ozmaniandevil.6805:

Sorry, but regardless of whether you play mmorpg or any other video game, there is always a goal to reach … or there is no fun or sense of accomplishment. My hubby loves his xbox. He plays all the games he likes to unlock ACHIEVEMENTS. You might play a game for a few hours without some type of reward, but i dont’t think you would play for 500 hours. I love GW2, but part of what i like is having the chance for loot and achievements.

Have you happen to have played any FPS’s before by any chance? I do believe those games have nothing to strive for. I have thousands of hours into TF2 and got nothing for it.

Awe.1096:

Archon.6481:

For brevity’s sake lets call that skill you described as twitch.
[… snip …]

So be it. Lets call it twitch. So Liadri requires twitch on levels to which all that I stated in my original post still applies.

You put another example of TF2. Which is a PvP experience and really should not apply as a valid comparison. Especially playing with a spy which relies on deception and playing mind games with your human oponents. Lets just put this argument to an end. Dont compare PvE difficulty and PvP. PvP is always subjective and even best players will loose. PvE is something you can master. Or at least to a level which varies for people. Liadri will never be mastered by majority of GW2 players in the current state of the game. Practice can make you better but every person has a certain skill (or twitch as you call it) ceiling.

Also as to WoW. Overall WoW was “harder” during Vanilla and TBC but specific heroic raid encounters were not. Heroic Lich King in Wrath was just as hard as Naxxramas in Vanilla. Yet none of those required “twitch” on level which I experienced on Liadri. She is not easy. She may be easy for you. But in this case almost nothing in the entire world of video games will be hard for you. Unless, again, we use a totally different definition of hard. I explained what I mean by “hard” and “skill” few posts above. You could argue that even extreme grind can be perceived by some people as hard. It all boils down to definition. Just please stop comparing Liadri to PvP mastery in any game becouse it does not serve any purpose for the sake of this argument.

You missed my point. TF2 spy was an example of what I think skill should be. Twitch should complimentary and enhance your other skills or get you out of situations because you lack those certain other skills. Spy is a good example because you don’t need twitch, but it helps you in certain situations. Mess up your stabs? Good revolver aim may get you out alive.

Unfortunately, twitch in this game is the only skill required in pve.

I fail to see why pvp is not valid to this argument. You seem to think that twitch is the ultimate testament to skill. So why not do what requires more twitch skill than anything else: pvp?

Awe.1096:

Archon.6481:

Complexity doesn’t define difficulty? Lets play chess with only pawns.

Red circles shouldn’t be difficult to see. Relying on something like that to define “difficulty” is poor design. That’s like removing the animation from eviserate or kill shot and saying that’s how you make warriors harder to fight.

Their frequency and area coverage is similar to that of lupi, who, surprise surprise, is not hard either. It’s another dodge and reaction check, just like lupi.

I am affraid you dont understand me. I said complexity does not define difficulty alone.

And how would you define “skill” in a video game? Skill and thing to which I am reffering to in case of Liadri is more “physical”. It is defined by your reflex, eye-hand coordination, ability to multitask and see several things at once, good “micro” and things like that. By this definition, beating Liadri is much harder from playing chess. A 110 year old can play chess and still be a great player becouse he has experience and knowledge. Would he get enough “skill” to challenge Liadri in GW2? I highly doubt. If you say that complexity is “hard” than I would say that EVE Online is much harder from GW2 becouse it requires a great deal of experience to be good at. But truth is, EVE Online is played at extremely slow pace and thus it demands nothing close to dexterity skill required by Liadri. That is the “skill” I am talking about.

For brevity’s sake lets call that skill you described as twitch.

I do think that twitch is skill, and is important, but to me, strategy and creativity is far more skillful.

Spy in TF2 is a good example. Trickstabs take skill but if you’re not creative or strategic in your use of them, they will never work. If you e never played TF2 before or don’t know what it is, here is a video of this in action.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7DGr85c3rsY

Twitch definitely enhances a spy’s capability, but it is not the defining characteristic of the class.

SallyStitches.4096:

Archon.6481:

even WoW has harder and more complex mechanics than that….

Are you being serious? I….I don’t even know where to begin.

I’m going to assume you started playing when Wrath was released, because I can assure you that the game was much harder during vanilla and the burning crusade.

RyuDragnier.9476:

Archon.6481:

Awe.1096:

Archon.6481:

And yes, I do think liadri was easy.

1) Don’t stand in red circles
2) Kill floating orb
3) Don’t stand next the shadowy thingies

Don’t tell this was hard, even WoW has harder and more complex mechanics than that….

Complexity does not define difficulty alone. One of your examples… red circles? OK. But what about visibility of said circles? What about their frequency of spawning and area coverage? What about the fact that they always 1-shot you? In WoW 1-shot mechanics are actually rare even on most demanding HC encounters. If they do happen, they usually have a build-up (so you must complete some task to avoid it happening) or a very significant telegraph. They are not spammed at you every few seconds during the entire fight. In WoW HC raids failure comes when your raid caves in to the pressure over the period of time. Not when they slip by half second with awereness check which happens every 2 seconds.

Complexity doesn’t define difficulty? Lets play chess with only pawns.

Red circles shouldn’t be difficult to see. Relying on something like that to define “difficulty” is poor design. That’s like removing the animation from eviserate or kill shot and saying that’s how you make warriors harder to fight.

Their frequency and area coverage is similar to that of lupi, who, surprise surprise, is not hard either. It’s another dodge and reaction check, just like lupi.

Difference is this is a 1v1 fight, it’s not a 5v1 fight…and I think everybody would be okay with this fight if it was 5v1, as then it would be possible to survive using teamwork. But since you’re on your own…it’s like soloing Lupi. A few can do it, but the vast majority can not.

You see, lupi takes a very long time to solo, which is the real difficulty. The longer the fight, the more likely a mistake.

Liadri takes less than 2 minutes.

I don’t know about you, but I stand in a fight with lupi for 2 minutes. Can I solo him? Maybe. But I can definitely last as long as I do with liadri. It’s the same thing except with a bigger arena and different animations and models.

Awe.1096:

Archon.6481:

And yes, I do think liadri was easy.

1) Don’t stand in red circles
2) Kill floating orb
3) Don’t stand next the shadowy thingies

Don’t tell this was hard, even WoW has harder and more complex mechanics than that….

Complexity does not define difficulty alone. One of your examples… red circles? OK. But what about visibility of said circles? What about their frequency of spawning and area coverage? What about the fact that they always 1-shot you? In WoW 1-shot mechanics are actually rare even on most demanding HC encounters. If they do happen, they usually have a build-up (so you must complete some task to avoid it happening) or a very significant telegraph. They are not spammed at you every few seconds during the entire fight. In WoW HC raids failure comes when your raid caves in to the pressure over the period of time. Not when they slip by half second with awereness check which happens every 2 seconds.

Complexity doesn’t define difficulty? Lets play chess with only pawns.

Red circles shouldn’t be difficult to see. Relying on something like that to define “difficulty” is poor design. That’s like removing the animation from eviserate or kill shot and saying that’s how you make warriors harder to fight.

Their frequency and area coverage is similar to that of lupi, who, surprise surprise, is not hard either. It’s another dodge and reaction check, just like lupi.

Awe.1096:

Archon.6481:

This is just going to turn Ito a thread of people giving opinions and you saying their opinion is wrong and yours is right.

The logic you used for dark souls can be very easily applied to liadri.

A 1v1 wih a very skilled player is harder than liadri. You can use the same strategy over and over again and always beat liadri. A player is capable of adapting in accordance with the situation at hand, liadri is not.

I think being good at TF2 or CS:GO/1.6 on a competitive level is harder than liadri for the same reasons stated above. In addition both those games have higher skill ceilings than GW2…

Difficulty is subjective.

We speak about PvE content. Surely beating a world champion in 1v1 PvP will be harder. But PvP and PvE are two entirely different beasts so comparing them is pointless.

I’m just going to say this again.
How to beat liadri:

1. Do not stand in red circles
2. Kill the floating orb
3. Don’t melee the visions
4. Shoot liadri

There are much more complex mechanics in WoW or Rift that take more effort than a few dodges here and there. This fight is not hard, it is a dungeon boss stuffed in a cramped space with an AoE on par with lupi’s, but wih the health of a veteran.

And yes, I do think liadri was easy.

1) Don’t stand in red circles
2) Kill floating orb
3) Don’t stand next the shadowy thingies

Don’t tell this was hard, even WoW has harder and more complex mechanics than that….

This is just going to turn Ito a thread of people giving opinions and you saying their opinion is wrong and yours is right.

The logic you used for dark souls can be very easily applied to liadri.

A 1v1 wih a very skilled player is harder than liadri. You can use the same strategy over and over again and always beat liadri. A player is capable of adapting in accordance with the situation at hand, liadri is not.

I think being good at TF2 or CS:GO/1.6 on a competitive level is harder than liadri for the same reasons stated above. In addition both those games have higher skill ceilings than GW2…

Difficulty is subjective.

You all are missing the point. Lets say Mike, John, and Bob are at the gauntlet. Mike is in the gauntlet, John is waiting in line, and Bob is dead. If bob stays dead, then Mike and John only have one person to wait for. But if they rez Bob, they will have to instead wait for two people instead of one.

sablephoenix.1593:

Get real. Forget Liadri, a good number of the other bosses are too hard already. I’ll never even see Liadri because too many of the other fights are luck-based. When you’re fighting things that ignore the combat tools that work everywhere else in the game, like evading for example, it becomes a frustrating exercise of trial-and-error. ArenaNet, word of advice: players hate it when the game cheats.

Which bosses require luck?

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

Giving retaliation an inner cooldown defeats the purpose of retaliation: a means to discourage multi hitting attacks.

Source? Because that explanation is terrible. Why would a mechanic like that be a good idea?

Rottaran Owain.6789:

maladikt.2180:

This topic is about two thieves playing a specific build who can’t kill a guardian playing another specific build.

If you read only the OP, and none of the rest of the thread, maybe.

Your name is familiar. Did you post on the TF2 forums?

bobross.5034:

Archon.6481:

Retaliation completely nullifies the p/p build. If all your damage comes from unload, and you can’t use unload against the guard, how is that fair?

I agree with this more or less, except for a few things:
1) it doesn’t mean that retal is OP – I think it actually means that P/P still has some major flaws / holes that need to be addressed by ANet- so for the sake of balancing, why not urge for a buff to P/P, in the form of more utility – maybe some sort of buff to body shot’s utility
2) Everyone has two weapons – so if your P/P isn’t capable of handling that guardian, you should swap weapons – D/D, D/P and S/D can all do well, even P/D can handle it fine because of frequent stealth heals.
3) There are more counters than just boon stripping – I mentioned signet of malice, which makes retal damage negligible.
4) P/P has access to headshot – not sure about guardian skills, but if those retal skills have a cast time, you should be able to interrupt.
5) As a thief, you are able to withdraw from combat enough to swap weapons/skills/traits if needed, this is an advantage that other classes don’t have

1) That was just one example, the same scenario can be applied to condi engies, bow rangers, or GS mesmers.
2) If your main weapon is p/p you’re probably specced on buffing your pistols instead of you melee.
3) SoM is a terrible heal. You only actually benefit from it you attack often which in this case is bad since the more you attack, the more retal procs.
4) They don’t have cast times, and even if they did it would be a waste of ini since it will be back up in 5 seconds. That ini you spent on that interrupt would be better used on damage, stealth, or interrupting a heal.

Aberrant.6749:

Archon.6481:

Retaliation completely nullifies the p/p build. If all your damage comes from unload, and you can’t use unload against the guard, how is that fair? How is it fair that the guard can completely hard counter you with a passive boon that requires 0 effort or input on his part?

I totally agree with this. There is no good play/counterplay. You’re just kittened.

1. Are you being sarcastic?
2. If yes, then how do you suggest a p/p thief kill a guardian with retaliation?
3. If yes, then why did you concentrate on this one part instead of countering my other points?

bobross.5034:

Archon.6481:

Lol. Your post is so full of baseless assumptions.

I do not have trouble with bunker guards. Your 3k armor and 15k health will not save you when my backstabs still hit for 7k. I will always kill a bunker guard in a 1v1 but retal extends the fight since i have to back off sometimes and heal. Bunker guard damage is just pitiful. It’s so bad that I take more damage from retal than their actual attacks.

Do you see the problem there? I take more damage from something in which he has to put 0 extra effort in order to accomplish? You should not be able to do damage with something that requires no extra effort or skill on your part. Clones/illusions, retal, confusion, etc are all poorly designed mechanics that reward the player who uses them and requires 0 effort or input from the player besides activating the skill. It’s the definition of “fire and forget”.

There is no build in the game that I cant kill except for staff + scepter/torch mesmers but even then it’s a stalemate. I can stand the fact of there being builds that I can’t kill, but I can’t stand people like you trying to justify your 0 skill and effort damage you deal from retaliation. You should not be punished simply for attacking your opponent.

Please do not say that perma stealth thieves cannot kill a bunker guard, that is not true. I’ve killed many bunker guards. They can’t put any pressure on me whatsoever except from retal. My damage is just vastly superior and I do not have to reset combat since i run a sustain build. Glass is overrated do not assume every thief runs one.

I assumed you play D/P thief because it’s in your signature. Also you assumed that I play guardian – which is not true at all (I believe I have a lvl 4 guardian, that I have never used in PvP). In fact I very rarely get any benefit from retal in any of my builds (maybe occasionally on my mesmer). I just don’t see why every build should get nerfed because a few people are too inflexible to deal with it.

And no, I don’t see the problem. If a stupid thief spams unload on a retal guardian – that’s a L2P issue, not a balance one. As I mentioned, thieves have several tools to handle retaliation, whether through boon-stripping, outhealing or single powerful attacks.

Arguing that retal is OP’d because the guardian can win a fight by just standing there is also silly. Thieves can win fights by spamming 2. That doesn’t mean heartseeker is OP, it just means people need to learn to deal with it. Same goes for retaliation. If you deal with it appropriately, the guardian will have to work for a victory.

Also you point out that your build can kill all builds except for one mesmer build, and that the worst outcome you get is a stalemate, so why are you complaining? It seems like the most evidence that you’ve presented is that your own build is overpowered – not the guardian’s.

You see, you can avoid Heartseeker by dodging, blocking, blinding, etc. You cannot stop retal from hitting you unless you stop attacking or boon strip it. And no, you should not be forced to run a boon strip in order to counter retal. And dont compare it to being forced to use condi removal. Almost all builds can effectively use conditions such as chill, immobilize, cripple, poison, etc so condi removal is a must. But very few builds can actually utilize retal to a lethal degree.

You misunderstand what I mean by me saying I can kill all builds. I mean that if properly played, I am capable of beating any build if I outplay them. Except that one Mesmer build.

Why am I complaining? You mean I can’t complain? Lets say there is a new 9th class called superman. Superman’s autoattacks deal 20k damage and has an irremovable -99% damage taken buff. Thieves however only take 200 damage from this new class’s autoattacks and he ignores the -99% damage reduction buff. Does me being a thief give me no right to say that superman is overpowered?

Retaliation completely nullifies the p/p build. If all your damage comes from unload, and you can’t use unload against the guard, how is that fair? How is it fair that the guard can completely hard counter you with a passive boon that requires 0 effort or input on his part?

Pleurodesed.7625:

I’ll try to simplify this.

This retaliatory bunker we’re describing is specced ENTIRELY for defense and support. It is meant to survive 1v1 to everything at the expense of doing no damage. Retaliation is still a defensive mechanism because it persuades you to stop attacking. If you attack and get killed, it’s entirely your fault and you should be neglected as a skilled person.

It’s as if there was a player invlunerable to fire damage and went for a swim on lava. Then you go chase him and afterwards there’s a post here styled “Nerf lava plz”. See the issue? It’s the same you have with retaliation.
That bunker isn’t able to kill you since he can’t deal damage. You can’t kill that bunker because if you deal damage, you die. It looks like perfectly balanced to me. Just as balanced as specific builds being able to take me out.

This doesn’t really challenge any of the points other people have already presented.

Retaliation does too much damage for a passive boon. You use the skill then forget about it and watch enemies take damage while there is 0 input from your part. You should not be punished for merely attacking an enemy.

The issue with you bunkers is that you think you should be able to spec completely defensively and still be able to kill something. That’s not how it works, if you want to kill someone, drop the clerics for some knights or zerker.

Beastmaster ranger can do the same thing. They could spec full bunker while their bird would still crit you for 7k. And you know what happened? they fot nerfed. The correspondence between these 2 classes/builds is that they think they should be able to do damage from something that requires 0 skill or effort on their part via pets/retal. It’s a bad mechanic that rewards too much for the effort involved.

There is a reason there is diminishing returns in other MMO’s.

CC in other games such as warrior CC in WoW for example, is 100% unavoidable. You cannot dodge shockwave or charge. You cannot block or parry them either. You have no choice but to just eat it. Psychic scream was an instant cast 10s AoE fear for priests. Frost nova is an instant cast, unavoidable AoE immobilize. You cannot stop a hunter from using wyvern shot or scatter shot. You cannot stop a rogue who wants to use gouge, or kidney shot, or blind on you. You simply have to take it, or use your 2min CD stunbreak. Diminishing returns is something that prevents this unavoidable CC from getting out of hand.

But in GW2, CC is for the most part, avoidable. You can see and dodge shield bash, or bolas, or binding blade, and so on. They’re also, unlike WoW, blockable and blindable. You can avoid CC by being skilled. You cannot avoid CC through skill in other MMO’s.

bobross.5034:

Archon.6481:

You should not be allowed to spec full bunker and still be able to kill people. Retaliation allows people who spec completely defensively to kill things when they obviously shouldn’t be able to.

You play D/P thief. In WvW this is the exact complaint that people have against D/P thief. They say it’s not fair for a build to have both excellent damage output and excellent survivability. I personally don’t see an issue here. I’m happy to let thieves run away when they’re losing and move on. I personally play thief builds that rely more on mobility and less on stealth – but I’m not complaining…The problem as I see it is that you can’t tolerate the idea of a build that you can’t kill. Seems kind of hypocritical.

It’s not overpowered, because it’s not unkillable. In fact many thief builds can deal with a bunker/retal guardian just fine. But the standard, cookie cutter dps or permastealth builds have trouble. And you’re upset because your build can’t kill a bunker guardian unless they let you. That’s fine, each build has their weaknesses. Appreciate and revel in all your strengths; Like the fact that that same guardian can’t kill you, unless you let him.

-And I am not trying to justify this as some sort of rock-paper-scissors style balancing. It’s not. ANet gave thieves the tools to deal with this build. It’s your choice whether to use any of them. If you choose to min-max in such a way that you have none of those tools available in your build, then your build will have a hard counter. And again, that is totally fine…just hope that the counter doesn’t become the meta, or your build will need to change.

Lol. Your post is so full of baseless assumptions.

I do not have trouble with bunker guards. Your 3k armor and 15k health will not save you when my backstabs still hit for 7k. I will always kill a bunker guard in a 1v1 but retal extends the fight since i have to back off sometimes and heal. Bunker guard damage is just pitiful. It’s so bad that I take more damage from retal than their actual attacks.

Do you see the problem there? I take more damage from something in which he has to put 0 extra effort in order to accomplish? You should not be able to do damage with something that requires no extra effort or skill on your part. Clones/illusions, retal, confusion, etc are all poorly designed mechanics that reward the player who uses them and requires 0 effort or input from the player besides activating the skill. It’s the definition of “fire and forget”.

There is no build in the game that I cant kill except for staff + scepter/torch mesmers but even then it’s a stalemate. I can stand the fact of there being builds that I can’t kill, but I can’t stand people like you trying to justify your 0 skill and effort damage you deal from retaliation. You should not be punished simply for attacking your opponent.

Please do not say that perma stealth thieves cannot kill a bunker guard, that is not true. I’ve killed many bunker guards. They can’t put any pressure on me whatsoever except from retal. My damage is just vastly superior and I do not have to reset combat since i run a sustain build. Glass is overrated do not assume every thief runs one.

Pleurodesed.7625:

I’m a cleric whose only damage is retaliation. If you unload a lot of cuts on me, you die; and that’s how it should be.

That’s terrible. Do you know how OP beastmaster ranger used to be? How he could spec full bunker and regeneration while his bird would still crit you for 7k? You should not be allowed to spec full bunker and still be able to kill people. Retaliation allows people who spec completely defensively to kill things when they obviously shouldn’t be able to.

You want to be able to do decent damage and kill things? Stop speccing full bunker and stop relying on obviously badly designed mechanics.

Nike.2631:

Or you could be aware of which classes frequently carry retaliation, know what to look for in terms of buffs on the bar & FX on the actual target and lay off the mad button mashing of multi-tick skills when you see any of those things.

This doesn’t change that retaliation (and confusion) are badly designed and need to be reworked.

Can you explain what the bug was?

Where are you getting these numbers from?

I just wants point out the title of the game (Guild Wars) has nothing to do with servers or actual guilds. It’s a series of 3 wars in Tyrian history in which the 3 human kingdoms (Kryta, Asclalon, and Orr) guilds went to war with the guilds of the other human kingdoms.

What is wrong with you people. I’ve done a level 48 with these classes in a party: Thief(me), ele, ranger, warrior, necro. That’s right. No Guardians and no mesmers. And you know, that run went flawlessly. Anyone who says that you need a guardian for lvl 48 is probably just using them to make up for their own lack of skill.

Yes you can do every fractal without a guardian. There is this wonderful button called “dodge”. Once you get good with using this “dodge” button, you’ll no longer have any need for guardians.

Nihilus.3015:

Archon.6481:

Nihilus.3015:

Archon.6481:

Nihilus.3015:

I solo roam on my Berserker elemantalist.

Until you meet a zerker thief and eat a 2k steal, 6k Cnd, and 11k backstab onto your 13k health

I actually look to spike thieves, they’re the easiest. My highest spike is 35k in 1.5 seconds. I got 11.8k health

So I perma stealth with basilisk venom, backstab you for 9k, then you’re a single auto attack or Heartseeker away from death.

EDIT:
Actually I can just CnD backstab for a 2-shot

Sure but I spike thieves while they’re stealthed too.

I’m 1500 range away when I enter stealth what are you supposed to do about that?

Rob.7624:

Guardian > thief

They have stealth, you have so much toughness + block + healing/protection that they burn everything up and get retaliationed at the same time.
They have blind. You have blind. With a sword its faster than Thief.

Except. I can hit you in stealth. And you can’t hit me. While my toughness and blocking is universal.
Advantage gained.

Fat class for the win.
Berz thieves beware. As soon as I see my aegis “Block” come up, I pop another with retaliation. You stealth? Greatsword 5 skill targets you in it. And spin to win will remove half your health while you’re still on the floor.

You do realize that aegis doesn’t break stealth right? With 3k armor, my backstabs still hit for 7k. Sure you can hit me while I’m in stealth… If I’m actually in melee range. GS#5? Psssh, dodge it. Your blind is on like a 12s CD while mine is spammable. Not to mention I can stand in the blind field so that you also have to stand in it to hit me, while you get spam blinded.

Even if you get me low —→ perma stealth until full health.
I have never lost to a guardian before in a 1v1.

Nihilus.3015:

Archon.6481:

Nihilus.3015:

I solo roam on my Berserker elemantalist.

Until you meet a zerker thief and eat a 2k steal, 6k Cnd, and 11k backstab onto your 13k health

I actually look to spike thieves, they’re the easiest. My highest spike is 35k in 1.5 seconds. I got 11.8k health

So I perma stealth with basilisk venom, backstab you for 9k, then you’re a single auto attack or Heartseeker away from death.

EDIT:
Actually I can just CnD backstab for a 2-shot

Nihilus.3015:

I solo roam on my Berserker elemantalist.

Until you meet a zerker thief and eat a 2k steal, 6k Cnd, and 11k backstab onto your 13k health

Oh you silly people. Evon isn’t buying your vote. He’s simply reminding you to vote and giving you a bit of silver as a thank gift for taking your time to vote. He is just trying to be nice and you’re accusing him of bribery.

wish.1027:

Archon.6481:

wish.1027:

Archon.6481:

wish.1027:

I did pick my side.
I’m with Math

Obiosuly not since your post history clearly indictes a bias for warriors.

Im sure it does, since I think Warrior will probably win. The difference here is that I dont go out and throw my opinion around like its fact when I dont really know.

But you did just that in your first post…

You know what? I’m done. You just keep using semantics to make yourself appear to sound in the right and I’m tired of listening to it.

My first post? You mean this one:

wish.1027:

Anubarak.3012:

It is well known that thieves outdps warriors…

Thanks for the laugh so early in the day.

Where I laugh at this guy stating so plainly that everyone knows Thief wins, when clearly its a huge controversy and no one knows? Ya, that clearly shows me stating for a fact Warrior wins…

EDIT:
Let me help you out here.
This is what it looks like when I state things as facts:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Celestial-Armor/first#post2424729
Notice all the math I do to prove how inferior Celestial armor is to mixing and matching other things? If you dont see me doing that, then Im not making claims, just laughing at other peoples incompetence, inability to do math, and lack of understanding why it’s important.

95% of the time someone says what you said in your first post, it means that you think they’re wrong and its the other way around. In sorry if that’s not what you meant, but please say something else next time so it doesn’t appear that way.

wish.1027:

Archon.6481:

wish.1027:

I did pick my side.
I’m with Math

Obiosuly not since your post history clearly indictes a bias for warriors.

Im sure it does, since I think Warrior will probably win. The difference here is that I dont go out and throw my opinion around like its fact when I dont really know.

But you did just that in your first post…

You know what? I’m done. You just keep using semantics to make yourself appear to sound in the right and I’m tired of listening to it.

Jado Cast.1805:

Those Pesky Perma Stealth Thieves can be annoying. The number one counter is anticipation. Think Like a Thief™

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Kpcayzfduw

Only reason you actually caught him was because he’s in an inclosed area. He did it wrong anyways. It’s actually possible to use shortbow to skip the first few jumps in the arena. He would have been at the top by the time his 10s of stealth ran of if he does it right.

wish.1027:

randomfightfan.4091:

Here, the math was done in this thread

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Cough-P1-Thieves/page/4#post2063584

It actually wasnt done in that thread, I looked. Can you link another?

It did have a good post about why math is best, player error while playing.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Cough-P1-Thieves/page/4#post1933414
Look at their excuses for not having better times.
#3, Slave Driver
Strife’s video, 1:23-1:32 = 9 seconds [Strife’s excuse: Didn’t hit 25 might, lost a second or two]
Our’s, 1:33-1:41=8 seconds [Our excuse: boss got pulled causing us to lose a second or two]

The only math I saw was… bad, not very accurate, and also about Ele.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Cough-P1-Thieves/page/4#post2055108
This post quotes it and rips it apart.

Archon.6481:

Sigh. I don’t feel like arguing with people like you.

Your vey first post indicates that you think warriors out dps thieves since you laughed when someone claimed the opposite. Now pick your side and stick to your guns.

I did pick my side.
I’m with Math

Obiosuly not since your post history clearly indictes a bias for warriors.

RyuDragnier.9476:

Does it stack between PvP and PvE? Just wondering if I can complete this faster by doing PvP along with my PvE.

Yes it does.

wish.1027:

When Im running around by myself only about 1 in 15 or so people I find is a thief… And even then I only die to about 1 in 20 of them, generally because of a mistake on my part. Thief isnt really that super awesome kill you dead class. It’s not like its a Necromancer or something.

Necromancer isn’t really one either…

Thieves actually make much better roamers than necros.

wish.1027:

Archon.6481:

wish.1027:

I have never done the math, I have never seen the math done, I dont know which is better.

Lets look at this the other way. Where is the math that proves warriors out dps thieves?

Theres no math anywhere that I am aware of. I said this, you quoted me, then you ask where it is? You should learn some basic reading comprehension.

Archon.6481:

Also, can you prove that the spreadsheet is wrong?

Does it show its work so you can check what it is doing?
Serious question.

But hey, tell us the gear/rune/sigil/trait/buff/food/skill setups youre comparing, what your rotations are, and use the spreadsheet to tell us how much damage they would each do in a 20 second time frame (because thats 2 weapon swaps, so you get to use everything.) That way we can all know what does the most damage.

Sigh. I don’t feel like arguing with people like you.

Your vey first post indicates that you think warriors out dps thieves since you laughed when someone claimed the opposite. Now pick your side and stick to your guns.

FooDang.2498:

Archon.6481:

Main Point: Stealth is not a crutch.

ok my previous response got infracted so i guess ill keep this one moderately clean, let me explain why people say stealth is a crutch

you said previously if you make a mistake or low on health you can just perma-stealth until you are full on life again

let play out a scenario

unsuspecting newb: " La La La what a beautiful day in EB let me go and get some supply and run to the zerg"

Thief: "Mwahahahaha I live for this moment!! "
*Stealth
*Instagib

unsuspecting Newb: "AHHhaphuhenfeinsjdfbsahfiu /map I Hate Thieves!!

meanwhile the thief is too busy /laugh to notice the party of 4 jumping him from behind

Thief: "Nooooo, my legs!! help me im too young to die!! if only i had something, anything to help me get back on my feet….oh wait a minute *Stealth

Thief “Mwahahahahahaha!!”

Edit: I’ve beaten my fair share of thieves 1v1, I’m just saying the stealth mechanic rendering the thief unable to be targeted is a crutch and the class itself is a troll class

Since you are clearly not actually reading that post let me explain it again.

A crutch makes bad players better, but makes good players worse.

Training wheels in real life for example. An new bicyclist may use them since they any properly balance themself. An experienced bicyclist however, is perfectly capable of balancing themself and the extra wheels inhibit their ability to turn and manuever.

Crutches (the ones you walk with) are another example. People who are incapable of walking use them so they CAN walk. But people who already can walk, will find it harder to walk with crutches than without.

Stealth can make bad players better because it easily allows you to coverup mistakes, but in what way does stealth inhibit the ability of good players?

To put it simply: It doesn’t.
Ergo, stealth is not a crutch.

wish.1027:

Anubarak.3012:

Cause I’m tired and don’t want to discuss with you ~.~ you won’t believe me anyway
You are just another ignorant person who won’t change his mind no matter what.
If you had been willing to learn something you would have opened the spreadsheet and looked at it more than 5 seconds. You can find the dps of any attack there with cast times and delays.

I just want to show thieves that we are worth in dungeons and CoF because warriors dmg isn’t that godly but since you only play WvW you can ignore this completely… Sit back and think further that warriors deal more dmg than thieves.
I’m out of this topic

I wouldnt want to deal with me either. You know I’ll come at you and demand the math, and since you can’t provide it, you should stop making such baseless claims.

And as far as it goes, I dont know which actually has higher DPS if youre only counting fighting single targets, I never did the math, and I also dont know the absolute optimal builds for both classes to increase DPS as high as possible. I just find it hilarious when people make baseless claims like they know whats up, when they honestly have no clue, its fun calling them out on their BS.

Anubarak.3012:

You are just another ignorant person who won’t change his mind no matter what.

Specifically to this, I have no opinion on the matter. I have never done the math, I have never seen the math done, I dont know which is better. It’s very easy to change my mind with anything, all you have to do is prove youre right. In this case, provide me with tons of numbers and discussion about traits and gear, then I’ll take you seriously and listen to you. All you’re doing is poorly piggybacking off someone else’s spreadsheet that doesnt prove anything.

Lets look at this the other way. Where is the math that proves warriors out dps thieves?

Also, can you prove that the spreadsheet is wrong?

Teofa Tsavo.9863:

Archon.6481:

Teofa Tsavo.9863:

Oh well, hey, thanks for the oh so helpful advice. If I was “skilled” the 2 of us could have held that keep. If I was “skilled” I wouldn’t have been chainpulled off the cannon twice. If I were “skilled” I wouldn’t have died 2 more times trying to get back in. If I were “skilled” I wouldn’t have lost 2g or so for the loss of a keep I fully upgraded and escorted yaks to for “phat profits”

Obviously, that mob of people is far more skilled than I. I wasn’t able to get out of downed state as fast as 20 of them insta rezzing. Im so bad at this game. Gosh.

And where was our Zergball.. I dunno. Probably running a bag and karma train, just like this zerg. This is not even a rare incident, it is all too common. I’ve screamed for help in fully upgraded, waypointed keeps and had 3 people come, losing them as well.

Bottom Line.. the people that do the thankless stuff, for their server, don’t make gold. They die the most. They get the least. Skill has nothing to do with it. Armor repairs just add more coin drain vs little income or incentive.

But thanks.. I already know I’m “doing it wrong” You all just punctuated that fact.

Well darn. Better complain to anet that you tried to fight a zerg and died

Oh, I’m sorry, we contest keeps, towers, camps if we can,even a few vs the zergs. I guess in the lower tiers you just WP out rather than trying? Ok. Um, thanks for the tip.

You missed the point btw, but I’m done trying to make it.

If I missed the point then you must have portrayed it badly. You fight with 4 people in a fully upgraded keep vs a zerg? You think you can win that? Stop trying to justify yourself wih suicidal behavior, thinking you can take impossible odds. You know what happens in real life? When fighting impossible odds, often the best option is to RETREAT. You are throwing your life away and accomplishing nothing. You can easily run away, but no, you chose to fight and you lost. Get over it.

I run away from zergs all the time. Why? I will die. What did I accomplish in doing so? Nothing. I contest keeps and towers often too. Except I’m situationally aware and don’t do it when there is a zerg right next me. If you choose to contet it anyways, dying (and repair costs) is the price you pay.

I very, VERY rarely die in wvw. And no I never zerg. I always roam because zerging is boring. And since when is T3 low tier? You know what? Why does it even matter? I can bandwagon onto to JQ or TC or DB or BG too. Doesn’t mean I’m any better of a player.

Master of Timespace.2548:

Archon.6481:

Master of Timespace.2548:

Archon.6481:

FooDang.2498:

Archon.6481:

Now, please stop calling stealth a crutch.

I’d hate to break it to you, its a crutch, but its cool, keep thinking your so awesome on your thief

the ability to break targeting is OP but I guess your delusional

PS. keep thinking your awesome, everyone else knows your not

Edit: look at it this way, any other class that does not have a stealth mechanic goes 1vX a group of people lets say 4, that’s 4 people that are focusing them, it takes skill to take every one of those enemies abilities, constantly, and survive let alone being able to stomp them and survive

stealth…it takes away the threat of 4 people having their targeting reticles on you, once you stealth its a guessing game, even if its for a few seconds that’s enough time to cut and run or line up for a ridiculous amount of dmg from backstab, Cloak and dagger? ive taken 5k dmg from cloak and dagger, and it stealths you when it hits, oh your stealth? heres a backstab for 9k dmg, 14k dmg and all you have to do is run up to someone and press 2 buttons while being untargetable and I have to guess a dodge roll because I cant see you, i’d like to welcome you to a troll class

Despite what you say the sky is blue and you can’t change that.
(Stealth is not a crutch and you can’t change that)

You never argued any of my points. You just took one sentence and said “lol wrong” and started rambling on about something unrelated. You don’t have valid points about being unable to deny backstab as I have met several players who are very good at denying backstabs.

It can be just that you are bad at landing them, though.

Again, my arguments still stand and your refusal and/or inability to refute them speaks for itself.

What arguments? That you know people who are “good at denying backstabs”? Well then I know people who never ever miss a backstab. You do realise that these aren’t arguments at all?

You’re not even reading my posts. That wasn’t my argument. Read my posts before that.

Main Point: Stealth is not a crutch.
Argument: Go back and look for it.