Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Yes, you do need to repeat it every time because you don’t define what you mean by ‘better’.
Unstable hides, which you get by simply killing white mantle mobs, are a far better source of leather – because they supply all the tiers.
So the rest of the map (and also Bloodstone Fen) is a better leather farm than the centaur area.
Yes. It’s quite ironic, actually.
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
How do we count the active population of Guild Wars 2?
Last time they made some numbers available (which was a month after HoT launch), it turned out they considered active anyone that has logged in even once in the launch month.
I wouldn’t expect much of any statistics made like this.
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Remember, remember, 15th of November
One of my guildies was able to gain access again. There is one distinct difference. I restarted the story and he hasn’t. So, does that mean if one restarts the story they no longer have access even though they earned the right to enter already?
Yep. The same bug that made you unable to craft the protective tonic in Bitterfrost Frontier if you restarted the story.
As far as the game thinks, you need finished story to be able to entry, and you do not have your story finished.
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Maybe he meant ‘in the beginning’ of the leather shortage/change. I don’t know.
There was a leather deficiency at the beginning of the leather shortage? You really think there’s a chance he meant that?
The deficiency I am referring to isn’t in the volume of leather .. it was in the inability to get leather in a reliable manner outside of the TP .. like ore or logs.
And, again, this farm doesn’t affect that deficiency at all. Remember, that it wasn’t a problem for t5. Only for other tiers (with the special mention of t6).
No one cared before because as we know, leather wasn’t really used much. That doesn’t mean it wasn’t a deficiency that we couldn’t ‘gather’ leather like other mats.
And we still can’t.
Yes, you do need to repeat it every time because you don’t define what you mean by ‘better’.
Unstable hides, which you get by simply killing white mantle mobs, are a far better source of leather – because they supply all the tiers.
To someone playing the game that wants to farm leather, a dedicated area might be what makes that area better than what you suggest.
Sure. But when that “farming area” doesn’t supply what you want to farm, it’s useless.
And as for “dedicated farming area” for t5 leather… well, any place where you can kill a lot of normal mobs is as good or better. Old style generic farms (like in Cursed Shore), would not only be better for leather, but also offer other loot on top of that.
Sorry, no matter how you look at it, this farm is a design failure.
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
(edited by Astralporing.1957)
@Vayne – Eles have a trait where they move faster in air attunement. It could require a respec if you don’t run air, but that only takes a few seconds for anyone to do so I think its still reasonable.
they also have a passive speed buff utility, and speed on staff (4 in air).
Revenants have a superspeed in shiro.
(and thieves have speed on dodge trait, iirc)
Basically, every class has a good enough speed option. In most cases more than one.
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
(edited by Astralporing.1957)
There is no incentive to run this mode ever again unless you overtune the rewards.
Well, duh. Obviously the reward structure would need to get rewarded. I just didn’t want to start that discussion here, since it’s offtopic.
Not it is relevant, it will otherwise become a one time adventure like story mode dungeons.
Okay, then you can assume that I assume that easy mode raids would have rewards good enough to justify repeating them. I don’t want just a “training lobby”. I want a content that can serve as training for those that would want it, but could also stand on its own.
Rewardless story mode is mostly useless, as dungeons have shown. On that, i fully agree.
All my posts are made with the implicit assumption that easy mode would be repeatable.
(mind you, that would likely require significantly improving the rewards of current raid mode – which even in my opinion aren’t that good at the moment)
Besides, 10% is still a good number.
No it is a terrible conversion rate.
That depends entirely on the conversion rates from other sources. Personally, i think that a conversion rate of 10% from easy mode, assuming that this mode would be popular, would create the best funnel of new people into raids. I sincerely doubt that the current conversion rates from non-raiding community come even close to that.
You want to open side content (your own words) for people outside of the target audience, slowing down content releases for that niche content.
I could live with, say, decrease of fractal development at the cost of creating easy mode (seeing as fractal team tries to go that direction anyway, which, in fractals, is, imo, a bad idea)
On the other hand, personally i wouldn’t be all that sad if it cut into raid development time. I doubt it would add that much once the ball got rolling once, and besides raids are being developed at a miraculously fast rate considering how small the current target group is.
You got a complete revamp for the HoT rewards and the LS releases are now much faster than raids.
They are going to stop after few more releases, and then we’ll likely end with another year-long drought.
The LS development is faster now, but in the long run raids aren’t slower at all.
Either you promote raids to main content, where other people would come out and cry about another broken promise, and increase the development ressources for raids or you can live with the fact that a small team creates content for a small part of the community.
At this moment, the development rate for this side content is definitely on par with the development of the mainstream one. What does that say to you?
Seriously, if the development rate followed the normal patterns of this game for side content, then we’d likely have seen a rate of several fractals for a single raid wing.
It may be a side content, but it’s definitely being treated as if that side content was one of the most important parts of the game. So, as i see it, either its importance gets degraded to match its limited target group numbers, or the content gets opened up. Significantly.
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Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Wouldn’t that make ANets statement an Alternative Fact?
Only if that statement was clear, and meant what people say it meant.
In truth, Anet did mention that the numbers are higher than in some mmos they have seen, but without specifying what mmos they have meant (definitely not WoW), and what methodology they used (as any person with even casual knowledge of statistics can tell you, the same numbers can mean many, even directly opposite things, depending on how they are counted and compared).
Besides, the numbers they were speaking of were from the early days of raids, so likely included all those players that tried once and never tried again (not to mention, it was during content drought, when raids were the only new shiny around).
Hard to say how that would compare to numbers today.
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Your beloved WoW proved that a training mode doesn’t work, even Blizzard said it.
Nah. One dev privately mentioned his dislike of the way it got implemented. Which he did, by the way, only after he stopped working at Blizzard.
Apparently, Blizzard disagreed, because LFR is still there.They released a statistic, that only around 7%-10% actually advanced from LFR. Thats definitely not enough to justify a one time adventure for people that are not the target audience.
10%? That’s massive, regardless of what it’s 10% of. Remember, that it’s people that would most likely not raid otherwise.
And in WoW numbers, we’re likely speaking about more people that gw2’s active population.
There is no incentive to run this mode ever again unless you overtune the rewards.
Well, duh. Obviously the reward structure would need to get rewarded. I just didn’t want to start that discussion here, since it’s offtopic.
10% is nothing compared to the development that is needed, the team has only 6 people.
Debatable. That’s based on a mistaken interpretation of one dev quote.
Besides, 10% is still a good number.
I was always curious, why do people think only 6 people work on raids?
Because ArenaNet said it.
Nah. They said that 6 people worked full time on one of the raid wings (salvation pass). What you forget is that there was more than one wing being worked on at that time, and that there were people that worked on raids part-time, as part of their general gw2 role (i.e. raid music was, as far as i know, not made by the raid team).
Between Wing 3 of Forsaken Thicket and Raid 2 were 8 months.
And how much was that between HoT and first LS release?
I’m going to laugh at the re-used models and assets part. If you are so concerned about re-used assets then remember that other than story mode bosses and Subject Alpha, every single asset and model in the old Dungeons is re-used from other types of content. Heck they didn’t bother to create some new model for the Gravelings in AC and used the Skelk model although they are supposed to be something different. How lazy is that?
Very. And don’t let me get started on Destroyers, that, instead of having their own models, got only reskins, that had nothing to do with their original design.
Unfortunately, reusing kitten is just way too common, and definitely not limited to one type of content (raids had its share of this too, by the way).
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Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
(edited by Astralporing.1957)
Shame things have become this bad.
People generally don’t like to be lied to. For a good reason, i might add.
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Your beloved WoW proved that a training mode doesn’t work, even Blizzard said it.
Nah. One dev privately mentioned his dislike of the way it got implemented. Which he did, by the way, only after he stopped working at Blizzard.
Apparently, Blizzard disagreed, because LFR is still there.They released a statistic, that only around 7%-10% actually advanced from LFR. Thats definitely not enough to justify a one time adventure for people that are not the target audience.
10%? That’s massive, regardless of what it’s 10% of. Remember, that it’s people that would most likely not raid otherwise.
And in WoW numbers, we’re likely speaking about more people that gw2’s active population.
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Your beloved WoW proved that a training mode doesn’t work, even Blizzard said it.
Nah. One dev privately mentioned his dislike of the way it got implemented. Which he did, by the way, only after he stopped working at Blizzard.
Apparently, Blizzard disagreed, because LFR is still there.
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
That’s an interesting question. If all account data is on either the NA or EU servers, I’d suspect that ought to include guild membership. Why, exactly, is that one aspect of one’s account cross server clusters when nothing else is?
Guild servers are separate from game ones. That’s why the game can sometimes claim you’re alone in your guild (or not even a member) – it means that the guild data server is down). Possibly that server is simply not duplicated across regions.
As for trying to justify why it takes hours… besides processes checking every X-hours, or an employee going in after X minutes/hours and doing it… the transfer of such raw data should not take much.
Not knowing the amount of data that needs to be trasferred, it’s really hard to say. Just remember, that it isn’t just server-to-server transfer within a single data cluster. Those servers are in different physical locations (EU ones are in germany, if i remember correctly).
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Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
(edited by Astralporing.1957)
You think the “easy runner” will somewhat be more ready to start their own groups because of the easy mode?
Yes. People are far more likely to start the LFG (or join it), if they think they are experienced enough to do it (as opposed to whether they really are good enough). It’s a self-perception thing.
In that case why don’t we see non-LI requirement groups forming for Escort which doesn’t need an easy mode in the first place?
Not enough new players (that want to start raiding) that do not have their own static groups.
It’s a bit of a vicious circle. Not enough open LFGs that can end up in success, means less new people are looking for them. Means, the average veterancy level among puggers goes up, and with this the expactations (that form a basis for LFG reqs) also rise. Which, of course, means less new players joining, and so on, and so on.
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
(edited by Astralporing.1957)
I compared SV to Deimos by mistake you should’ve seen the posts under that one where I was corrected that the Raid is Forsaken Thicket and not Spirit Vale.
Yeah, saw that one, but only after i posted.
Once you are at the point to down Matthias consistently you will figure it out. Preferably, do it before you even enter the Bastion.
Why? the first 3 bosses are nowhere Matthias level, so killing him is hardly a requirement.
Only then you’ll understand and it’s apparently pointless to talk about it before you reach that point.
Maybe. Though, again, you seem to assume that people able to down Matthias will always also be able to do that consistently and easily. And that until they can do so, they shouldn’t even try to attempt Deimos.
Remember, many will never be able to reach that point, and yet they will still want to try new encounters.
Come to think, there’s no “required raid order”, so there’s no reason why someone should not start their raid experience with BoP vefore even attempting FT. With more raids, it will be even more visible. Thus, you can’t assume that people attempting boss Y will have boss X on farm status already, unless those two bosses are in the same raid wing.
No matter how many more people run the easier version of the encounter, the LFG listing will still be “LF 50+ LI” meaning those players running the easy mode are still excluded from the normal version. So, how is that helping with finding a group that requires LI, that is, a group for the normal version of the Raid? That was the actual question, how are easier modes going to help pugs get into the normal raids.
And i have answered it. With increased number of people that learned enough in easy mode that they probably can do the easiest normal mode bosses, but do not have enough LI to join the “pro” groups yet, more LFGs with lower requirements would inevitably appear. So, that one LFG would remain, but you’d have also “VG attempt, exp at easy mode required” ones. And those, if succesful, would supply LIs.
(i’m intentionally avoiding discussing here about whether LIs should be unique to normal mode or not)
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Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
(edited by Astralporing.1957)
Matthias is in Salvation Pass. Spirit Vale is VG, Gorse and Sabetha. People that finished SV had definitely lot of problems with Matthias (and likely at least some of them could also have used a bit of training it on easy mode).
It was Matthias compared to Deimos, or Matthias compared to all other bosses of Forsaken Thicket, since he is the hardest boss of it.
Not sure what you’re asking about here (as you were the one that mentioned SV and compared it to Deimos).
Still, i believe that even the people that managed to down Matthias could generally use a training on Deimos. Remember, that even among raiders not that many have Matt on easy farm status. He’s the hardest boss of FT for a reason.
Generally, yes, some people are likely that good that after learning Matt they can attempt Deimos straight away and learn the encounter in relatively short time with no problem. Those people are likely so good they never needed any easy mode in the first place, and the suggestion is not addressed to them (on the contrary, they might be in ned of a hard mode, that is more challenging than the current one). I believe however, that they are a minority even among active raiders.
Because people need raid experience and current system fails to deliver it?
They don’t need raid experience to enter the Raid, they need LI.
See without an easy mode: “LF9M 50+ LI”
after the easy mode: “LF9M 50+ LI”
What did you accomplish?
Create an increased number of people able to run easier raid encounters, but not having LI yet. Which means more grouping opportunities that have lesser requirements, without massively reduced chances of success.
(though, knowing human nature, it would likely end with those groups having their own requirements, based on some other factor – like, for example, guildhall decoration drops – that shows that players finished a number of bosses at least on easy mode :P)
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Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Not the first tier, but t2 and t3? Definitely. It did happen. And that’s people that did old t4 easily, without any struggling.
Then it’s weird indeed. I thought the “Easy mode” of Raids would be T1 fractal difficulty and there has never been a discussion about T2 or T3.
I guess that would depend on whom you’d ask, but also on the encounter in question. “easy mode” for escort can’t really be anything but t1. Matthias, on the other hand, would likely end up much higher even after difficulty reduction (if you wanted to leave any worth for learning). Personally, i wouldn’t be against having the easier mode for the 2-3 hardest bosses be on the level of t4 nightmare (not CM, though).
(though i can see how someone might consider it too high still ;P)
I’m curious if these friends of yours would “train” at T1 if T2 and T3 wasn’t available.
That would depend on specific fractal, i think. And the effect would not be as good. Still, i believe we’d run each new fractal at least once at t1 then.
The first 2 bosses? Likely. Samarog? Possibly. Deimos? I definitely see how a training option would be useful here.
A team that can down Matthias, which is included in finishing Spirit Vale last I checked, shouldn’t have an issue with Deimos either. You know how to beat hard bosses.
Matthias is in Salvation Pass. Spirit Vale is VG, Gorse and Sabetha. People that finished SV had definitely lot of problems with Matthias (and likely at least some of them could also have used a bit of training it on easy mode).
There’s a difference between learning your class/playing in general, and learning the encounter. While the first is important, it can never fully replace the second.
It actually can. Once you learn a really hard encounter and how to beat it, let’s say beating Matthias, further harder encounters can also be beaten, like Deimos. You already have the experience in countering hard bosses in general. You know how to react, you know how to deal with break bars, splits big damaging area of effect attacks, timing of mechanics and so on.
Maybe so. It doesn’t mean training it first on easier mode could not be useful for many.
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
(edited by Astralporing.1957)
Only people wearing all offensive gear get downed in one shot .
Too bad i have lost my screencap of 37k damage from getting warbannered by an aether elite during LA defense event. On 3300 armor.
(hint: champs, which were also present in the same event, hit for more. Neither of those were considered bosses – just upscaled normal trash enemies).
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Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
(edited by Astralporing.1957)
Yes but if you sold the mats that you’d use to turn it into t6 and bought t6 you’d save money so it’s pointless.
Again, you people are missing the point here … if a person is purposefully going to farm leather there, their concern isn’t what the value of the drops are.
Seriously, do i have to repeat it every time? If you want to farm leather (directly), there are far better spots for this. Even on the same map. If something is designated as a leather farming spot by devs, it should be better for leather farming than other places. Not worse.
Yes, you can farm it for leather, but at this point you might as well farm queensdale moas. It is doable, but what’s the point?
This was a deficiency in the game from the beginning that is now corrected.
There was never any need to farm t5 leather. And yet it’s what this farm offers almost exclusively.
The deficiency in the game remains completely unchanged, this “farm” has zero impact on it.
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
(edited by Astralporing.1957)
Since i know personally a lot of people like that, you are factually wrong here. You just happen to not associate with such players, i guess.
You know players that were already running T4 Fractals (like old 100 Mai Trin) successfully and when Nightmare was released they went to kitten “train” for the mechanics? That’s really hard to imagine.
Not the first tier, but t2 and t3? Definitely. It did happen. And that’s people that did old t4 easily, without any struggling.
Unlike WoW were Raid difficulty has ups and downs from what we’ve seen so far the overall Raid difficulty in GW2 doesn’t do that. Any group of 10 people who cleared Spirit Vale will have zero trouble clearing the Bastion, which is why there is this perception that it’s “easy”. So a training mode for Bastion is redundant, since everyone who goes to the Bastion would’ve already cleared Spirit Vale.
The first 2 bosses? Likely. Samarog? Possibly. Deimos? I definitely see how a training option would be useful here.
Additionally, as i have mentioned, easy mode would have other (often more important) functions, and for that reason alone having more modes of all encounters should be considered.
That’s irrelevant to what is being discussed here.
It’s relevant as long as you will keep saying that someone not needing easy mode for training purposes for all encounters means that easy mode for those ’superfluous" encounters is not necessary.
There are players that learn better under pressure – for those, throwing them on deep waters of raids is better. There are however players that learn better when they can do it slower, on their own pace, without additional pressure. For those, easy mode would be better.
Those players can learn on all the other content that exist in the game where there is no additional pressure.
There’s a difference between learning your class/playing in general, and learning the encounter. While the first is important, it can never fully replace the second.
You might as well say, that someone should learn on open world and golem and thus learn to beat Matthias with no problem, with no prior knowledge of said encounter.
It doesn’t work like that. There’s still a big gap here. And while some people can fill that gap attempting the encounter on normal/hard mode, others would do better if they could learn it first on easy.
Don’t deny them that possibility simply because you don’t need it.
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
First, because i disagree from your assumption that it helps noone (most is not the same as all), and second, because you seem to think that it’s the only purpose of easy mode. Which it isn’t. Not by far.
I never, ever, said that it’s the only purpose of easy mode. I was ONLY contesting the point that an easy mode will lead to more players to the normal/hard versions and that still stands.
As i said, “most” is not all. There will be players graduating to hard mode that way. Perhaps not the majority of those that will attempt easy mode, but they will exist. And that will lead to getting more players into normal/hard mode.
A player that wants to enter hardcore content doesn’t need an easy version of that specific content to begin their journey, they can become “good” players by playing any other type of content of intermediate difficulty.
It’s not binary. Not everyone is the same, and not everyone reacts the same way you do.
There are players that learn better under pressure – for those, throwing them on deep waters of raids is better. There are however players that learn better when they can do it slower, on their own pace, without additional pressure. For those, easy mode would be better.
The same is with fractals. There are definitely players that can start them straight at t4, and learn everything fine. You are likely basing your opinions from associating with this kind of people. There are, however, also players, that do need to learn mechanics slowly, going though tiers, from the easy t1 , through t2 and t3, up to the top difficulty. Among the players i happen to be friends with, those are a majority.
Your stance completely denies their existence however.
A player who went to T4 Fractals doesn’t need to train for the newer Fractals. I have serious doubts that any T4 player ever needed to play Chaos or Nightmare on lower difficulties to “Train” for the T4 version, they are already good enough, by reaching T4 in the first place, to run any T4 fractal that will be released in the future.
Since i know personally a lot of people like that, you are factually wrong here. You just happen to not associate with such players, i guess.
Let’s imagine a game with 20 Raids. A group of players plays the first one in the line in some form of easy mode. They get good at it, playing well together, forming great teamwork, using amazing builds and then go to the higher difficulty and beat it. Provided that in this game all future Raids will be of similar difficulty to the first one, that’s because it has no vertical progression, no new tiers of gear, nor new level caps, for the other 19 Raids they won’t go to their respective easy modes but go directly to the higher difficulty, they no longer need the training wheels.
That might be true for some (perhaps even most), but not necessarily true for all. Besides, not all raid encounters are equal, as you know.
Additionally, as i have mentioned, easy mode would have other (often more important) functions, and for that reason alone having more modes of all encounters should be considered.
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Nike’s right, most barriers to raiding are self-imposed.
Social exclusion is still exclusion. In fact, it’s the worst kind, because it cannot be overcome by, say, farming a better set of gear.
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
I don’t know what you are on about.
I meant that we seem to be speaking past each other. The things you claim as obvious are not only not obvious, but not not even true from where i look.
You even agreed that those who run intro/easy mode raids do not go to the higher difficulties and yet after that you are trying to prove otherwise.
I only agreed that many of the easy mode raiders in WoW do not feel the need to go to higher modes, because they are content to remain in easy one. I never said that noone does that (nor that the number that do is too small to matter).
It’s simple, those who run the easy versions run those and won’t run the harder versions so following the initial argument (which you also said was mistaken) my initial assessment that
And adding a new difficulty won’t solve the “problem” of not finding groups for the normal/hard versions of the Raids.
is accurate. Why have we been going on and on with multiple posts since then?
First, because i disagree from your assumption that it helps noone (most is not the same as all), and second, because you seem to think that it’s the only purpose of easy mode. Which it isn’t. Not by far.
One could easily argue the opposite, that it’s your perspective that is skewed since you put very little emphasis on learning and improving through the methods that exist.
Possibly. Probably even. Of course, my sugestion does not exclude people from your group, while you seem to think that only yours is right, and others do not exist.
Fractals are also endgame content. If people struggle with fractals, that means they have not put enough time in to understand their classes strengths and weaknesses. They should (if we follow your logic) go play the open world or dungeons to actually gain the skills required.
No. That would be following your logic. After all, Fractals do have a learning curve already built in.
Besides, Fractals are only endgame content in the sense that they are a content for groups of five level-capped people. The same, as, say, dungeons.
Remember, whole game is the endgame.
Once they have the basics no T1 or T2 fractal should ever be a “challenge”
Again – you seem to have a completely different view of what constitutes the basics and what the average skill level is in the community.
See the problem ?
Yes. The problem is the “hardcore endgame” mentality.
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
(edited by Astralporing.1957)
…now i’m sure. We’re definitely playing a completely different game, and with completely different people.
I guess the community split is just too wide for us to even speak the same language.
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Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
It’s the best place: it’s out of the way of everything else on the map, so people can farm leather without interfering with anyone else’s activities.
I don’t think you understood me, so i will repeat. Killing white mantle mobs and doing events elsewhere is a better method of farming leather than this so called “leather farm”.
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
So it’s not like you’re trading off huge chunks of damage for huge chunks of HP, like you claim in that strawman fallacy. It’s about trading just a little bit of damage for hugely more vitality.
it will be a bit more than “a little bit” of damage loss, especially if your vitality gain is significant.
And yeah, I did mention vitality, not toughness. I can’t see why everyone here is talking about toughness
Maybe because toughness is much more useful in most cases.
The comparison being made is between Berserker and Valkyrie or Marauder, which with the right runes or food can compensate for the lack of precision.
I believe the example you made was very specific – valkyrie with exuberance runes. That’s a really big dps loss for most builds, and a still significant one for those that can compensate for crit chance drop through trait shenanigans (although those are themselves a dps loss in most cases).
But perhaps i am mistaken. Make such a class and do the dps check on golem, post results, maybe you are on to something.
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
(edited by Astralporing.1957)
And none of the work-arounds people have suggested, like manually picking another instance when you’re asked to switch, have been implemented, either.
Not going to happen. They don’t want us to get any hints about how many players there might be around.
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Yes, there are people that could do that. These people are likely already raiding, or could start at current difficulty mode with no problems. They are not for whom easy mode would be made.
People who are struggling with T1 or are not comfortable running T4 will stay in T1 in their lifetime.
Ah. Yeah. Everyone either starts at 110% efficiency, or they will remain scrubs forever. Got this.
…seriously?
That’s fine but irrelevant to what was being discussed.
Nah, i think what you just said is a really good illustration how …disassociated you are from the community and how badly that impact your perception.
It’s pretty clear now that your opinions on how the game works outside of your narrow playing field are seriously flawed. And that field is indeed really narrow.
In both cases, having the T1 is useful for those who cannot go above that, but let’s don’t pretend it’s useful for those who want to train for T4 as was the original discussion.
T1 alone are not enough, but kitten,t3,t4 progression is very useful as far as learning goes. It’s not useful only to people that have already learned most of those lessons elsewhere.
And even beyond that. Using the Fractal example again, those who trained to be better players and are now running T4 do not need a “training” version for any future fractals anymore.
Yeah. Just as the people that are running current raids do not need easy mode. That doesn’t mean (again) that those are not needed for everyone else.
You seem to think that the game should completely ignore all players that are not experienced and skilled veterans. Sometimes i even think that you forget that such players even exist.
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
I think you lose more damage from not using scholar runes than using marauder armor
Full marauder ele is like 12% less dps than berserker.
Flame legion runes are like 3% worse than scholar assuming 70% scholar uptime
What about strength runes (on a guard, hopefully hammer user), the ones OP mentioned?
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Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, that you’re likely surrounding yourselves with people whose skill is way above average, which seem to significantly skew your perspective. Most new players struggle with t1 when they start playing fractals. Put them in t4 immediately, and they will get slaughtered (learning nothing in the process).
Yes, there are people that could do that. These people are likely already raiding, or could start at current difficulty mode with no problems. They are not for whom easy mode would be made.
Yes, for people that do not need it, the easy mode would be mostly useless. They are however not the only players in the game. You seem to keep forgetting that.
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
I think you lose more damage from not using scholar runes than using marauder armor
Average player is likely not going to qualify for the 6th set bonus most of the time.
Though you have a point, loss from not having dps runes will likely be significant.
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Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Leather farm is simply that … a place to farm leather.
If the intended “leather farm” place is the worst place to farm leather on the whole map, something is wrong.
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Yeah, I never accept to change maps, but depending on how far the meta timer is it auto switches right at the moment when the meta ends, moving you awy from rewardschests or worse inthe middle of anevent.
I guess the system has to close maps somehow, but its very disruptive and annoying no matter which way around it happens.
Personally think it should only switch people 15min after the meta ends.
It doesn’t check the meta state at all. It simply closes exactly 1 hour after that first popup.
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
What’s more optimal though, a dungeon run with 3 party wipes or a dungeon run 1 minute slower than the world record?
It won’t be only 1 minute slower, and it won’t necessarily reduce the wipes that much. That’s what you’re missing.
And the example you made is not that good. For most classes, it would be a major reduction of dps for minor survivability gain. Critical hit chance is important – without it being high, all that ferocity is mostly wasted. And additional vitality will let you survive maybe one more hit (on high tier fractals perhaps not even that).
In my experience, it’s better to either go full bunker (in which case your role is to keep the mob(s) occupied and the rest of the group safe while the other, more glassy players will kill them, because you will have no dps to speak of on your own), or go straight to full glass (Berserker, Assassin or Viper, depending on build and class) and hope everything will go down before you will make a mistake. Anything in between, in most cases, means sacrificing more than you gain.
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
We’re seeing reports about Bastion of the Penitent being “too easy” only days after release. There are challenge motes to make it harder. Is this an ANet version of easy/hard mode for raids? If so, will the people demanding easy mode be satisfied?
Not really. As it has been mentioned, they aren’t really all that easier, except for the upper tier of raiders. I don’t see any significant difference between Cairn and VG, for example, except for the fact that VG’s mechanics are far more clearly marked (while half of Cairn’s are plain invisible to me).
There is no easy mode needed.
Are there any mechanics just missing when you’re not in melee, and not in a bigger group? Because that fight sure as kitten wasn’t as easy as this (not that i’d ever call 4 hours without making a single mistake “easy mode”).
(haven’t seen any description of the first two bosses anywhere yet, so our group can depend only on what we see and experience. Maybe knowing the mechanics well would indeed make it much easier, but so far it wasn’t the case)
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
(edited by Astralporing.1957)
No. I don’t. Because it really isn’t. The core mechanics of the skill (and your response to it) remain the same. You are simply being given a little bit more of leeway.
No they aren’t the same. The response is completely different, just see the difference in how people respond in T1 fractals and T4 fractals, it’s like a completely different encounter. How are you saying the response is the same when it’s completely different?
Because it isn’t. Not for people that aren’t that experienced.
Notice how i have mentioned that experienced t4 fractals runners are able to simply roll over first tier with no problem, and can ignore many mechanics (just as, i might add, experienced raiders can sometimes ignore some raid mechanics when they learn up on the fight and their own class’ abilities) – but it’s only for people that are experienced in higher tier fractals/high end content. People that only start the climb won’t have that ability and knowledge yet. And there’s still a lot of mechanics that will have exactly the same approach on all tiers.
The gradual climb in mechanics from kitten t4 through t2 and t3 is a learning experience. You may keep denying that, but it’s exactly how most of the fractal players learned to do t4’s.
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Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
(edited by Astralporing.1957)
I don’t know about you, but I wouldn’t want to play with someone who was known to lie about important things.
And that’s likely the most important part of this discussion. Seriously, no matter how you might dislike/disagree with some LFG requirements, or how stupid they might seem to you, you should still respect them. Otherwise you really can’t expect others to respect you.
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Everytime I’ve been in a dungeon or fractal, there’s always been at least a death or two, and most of these deaths could have been avoided by wearing a safer set.
That’s the problem. Most of them really couldn’t, and as for the rest… For every one fight that succeeded due to someone surviving thanks to a more tanky build, there will be 10 that ended up as a wipe because they lasted too long as a result of not enough dps.
Apart from that, there’s no specific gear that should be used by casual players. Every such player can decide what they can (and should) wear on their own. For many, it will be zerks (because zerks do make the fights easier even on average skill level – you don’t need to be a “hardcore speedrunner” for that).
As the current fractal meta shows, survivability is an important factor, but doesn’t need to be achieved by using less optimal gear.
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
It may be a difference in case of classes that depend on critting for other effects than just pure dps. Check if you’re not using any traits/on crit sigils like that.
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Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Similar approach could almost certainly be made to all the skills of other bosses as well without the need to completely redo them in the Nightmare t4<->CM way.
VG is probably the only boss without any binary mechanics, let’s say Sabetha’s Flamethrower, would you make it “slower” so players can react faster? So she can be stuck in the Flamethrower animation (she can already be stuck in it) and get damaged more than she should be (she never interrupts the Flamethrower).
Somehow i don’t think “damaged more than she should be” would ever be a problem with the easy mode raids. The people able to make full use of this would likely be able to do the hardmode version too, after all. And i fully expect pro raiders to be able to just blast away through those encounters with no problem, the same way experienced t4 fractal runners would steamroll over t1 fractals.
And yes, slowing flamethrower would be the option i’d go for in this case.
You DO realize that tweaking timings is the same as redoing the skill right?
No. I don’t. Because it really isn’t. The core mechanics of the skill (and your response to it) remain the same. You are simply being given a little bit more of leeway.
And it is not something done in the difficulty settings of Fractals either.
Actually, it is used at least twice, if i remember it right – the length of Mai Trin’s bombardment phase depends on fractal level, for example, and there’s the time you get to bring wisps to stumps in Swamp.
It’s not even something used in Challenge Motes, since Challenge Motes add new mechanics instead of tweaking any timings or speed like what you want.
Yes, which is why i don’t use challenge motes as an example of easy/hard mode split i’d like to see.
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
We’re seeing reports about Bastion of the Penitent being “too easy” only days after release. There are challenge motes to make it harder. Is this an ANet version of easy/hard mode for raids? If so, will the people demanding easy mode be satisfied?
Not really. As it has been mentioned, they aren’t really all that easier, except for the upper tier of raiders. I don’t see any significant difference between Cairn and VG, for example, except for the fact that VG’s mechanics are far more clearly marked (while half of Cairn’s are plain invisible to me).
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Don’t bother. You most likely wouldn’t like to play with people that have such requirements anyway.
There are some training guilds that you might want to look into instead (in EU it’s Raid Training Initiative [RTI], for example). If you are already considering playing with pugs, this might be a better decision. Since you have some experience already, and since you seem to like it, you should be fine.
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
(edited by Astralporing.1957)
People that only farm liquid gold to buy things instead of actually farming things only increase prices. Sure it’s a rational economic thing to do since you have the best output/time ratio but it create low supply/high demand on basic things which quickly inflate in prices because people are wealthy.
And? It’s still the reasonable thing to do. And inflation happening is not on players’ but on Anet, and it’s devs that would need to do something about it.
Leather isn’t just worth enough for people going specificly for it at its current drop rate but enough for people to whine about.
As long as the leather farms are so inefficient compared to gold ones, it will never reach that point (because if the inflation were to advance so far, TP market would require intervention long before it might actually happen).
If you want to maximize your T6, you convert.
No. If you want to maximize your t6, you farm gold and buy them. Converting is a loss.
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
What i meant is that when raiders speak of new raid wing as being easy, they only compare the difficulty to the raiding community, not to the whole game population, and thus their view is significantly skewed.
But the Raids are made for the raiding community (it’s in the name) not the whole game population.
That’s the core of our disagreement, don’t you think?
You are arguing for keeping them limited for a small subset of people, i am arguing about opening them up for a wider audience. Everything else just follows this.
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Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
In some cases a number tweak can work. But in other cases it’s impossible, when a Raid skill is a binary result (dead or alive) if you add a middle ground of “take damage” then it’s not the same skill at all.
In most cases just tweaking the numbers will be okay. In most others it will also be fine – but the numbers tweaked won’t be to damage. This can result in more time allowed to execute the mechanics, or mechanics being easier to execute (by slight tweaks to it, not due to major rework).
VG has only two mechanics of the second type. First is green circles – merely allowing a bit more time for people to get inside them should be enough, when coupled with, say, lowered damage from seekers. No need to make them less lethal if completely ignored. In the case of blue circles making them a bit more visible and extending the time to react slightly should also be fine, though if other mechanics are tweaked they really could be left as they are now with no change at all.
Similar approach could almost certainly be made to all the skills of other bosses as well without the need to completely redo them in the Nightmare t4<->CM way.
Binary results can be tweaked – you just tweak other things than the primary effect.
And by doing it that way, you will actually end up teaching people about the harder mode mechanics.
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
(edited by Astralporing.1957)
Raiding community is not the whole community, only a small subset. Yeah, the people that kept raiding for the last year will become better at raiding, no surprise here. This in no way affects the rest of the community however.
What i meant is that when raiders speak of new raid wing as being easy, they only compare the difficulty to the raiding community, not to the whole game population, and thus their view is significantly skewed.
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
So we just have a different perspective on where to draw the line for “sorry you aren’t skilled enough.” I think the current raids are easy enough already, you don’t.
Pretty much this. Though i also think you may be simply unaware how high the current bar is (as you see it only in relation to yourself and your friends).
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
It’s like this with Fractals (the lower tier mechanics, while technically the same, are extremely forgiving and, by your reasoning, cannot prepare players for the t4 versions. And yet Fractals do manage to do exactly this somehow).
The mechanics are similar but they are defeated in completely different ways. It’s not the same mechanic if you can ignore it and heal through it (or simply ignore it) while in higher tiers you die by it. There is near zero value in teaching T4 Fractals with T1 Fractals.
First, near zero is not zero. Second, there are t2 and t3 tiers too. Together they do form a bridge towards t4 difficulty and help in learning the mechanics.
Besides, it’s not as clear-cut as you say. T1 Mai Trin for example is not so much different mechanically from t4, and does force you to learn many parts of the last tier mechanics well enough. Even if it’s also much easier. And it’s not unique in that regard. Even Nightmare benefits from fractal learning ladder, even though the difference between t1 and t4 is massive and large parts of the t4 mechanics are simply missing in lower tiers.
A player’s experience in beating T1 Nightmare will be near useless in the CM version (only available in T4)
CM cannot be really considered here, as it is a complete rework, not merely a less forgiving version of the same lower-tier mechanics. It’s not an “easy mode/hard mode” split, those are basically two different fractals. I don’t advocate an easy mode based on complete rework on mechanics, as this is indeed generally useless for most purposes.
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
(edited by Astralporing.1957)
Can they create more experienced players for the higher difficulties? No.
Oh yes, they can. It’s not very common (mostly because majority of players running them are simply not interested in getting better), but they can.
The same would be true here. Majority of players would remain at the easy mode level, because they would have no desire for greater challenge, but some would graduate to hard mode eventually.
It’s like this with Fractals. The lower tier mechanics, while technically the same, are extremely forgiving and, following your reasoning, cannot prepare players for the t4 versions. And yet Fractals do manage to do exactly this somehow, in direct defiance of your claims.
Edit: heh, see you brought fractals up. Interesting how we see the same example to show the exact opposite.
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Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
(edited by Astralporing.1957)
Well, that’s not what anchored means so … all the promotable mats are anchored by their subordinates to some degree, especially if they are hard to get in the open world. If T6 leather was only available through promotion, it would be completely anchored by the availability of the sub-T6 leathers.
But it isn’t available only through promotion – and you forget that currently the t5 leather is the least important component of the promotion recipe.
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November