Guild Wars 2

It’s still broken, i’m afraid. It’s around half a year already, and there’s not even an indication that Anet’s even aware that something may not be right.

Ubi.4136:

Also, there are no points of interest, vistas, hero challenges, or waypoints at the end of jump puzzles. Map completion can be done without finishing any jump puzzle.

Better look again, because offhand i can think of at least 3 locations in core maps where it isn’t true. And a few more that, while not in/beyond official JPs, still require some jp-like skills to reach.

UnitedChaos.8364:

Simply put, this is what GW has envisioned gw2 farming as….
https://postimg.org/image/6grdxnzl7/
Is this really how you wanted to handle the leather situation.

Yes. Remember, that they didn’t really want to do anything about the leather situation. What they wanted was to put up an appearance of doing something.

Things like what you posted? It’s all fine for them. People are farming, but the leather market remains unaffected. It’s perfect.

Menadena.7482:

For example, my second account just has the base game but should have all of LS3 available if they give us base accounts HOT when they start selling the 2nd expansion.

They won’t. HoT will be bundled with the next expac at no additional cost, but it won’t be given away for free.
Or at least that’s the current Anet policy, and nothing they did suggests they might change it (especially seeing as it would be of no benefit to them).

Wargrave.4936:

I do not understand how you think crowbars are the easiest?

Because my each attempt to reduce their number by mass opening cargos (and just accidentally tagging events i run past) ends with me having more crowbars than i’ve started with.

What you’d really need is something to buy with map currency that would offer a return – i.e something like the chests from the new LS maps.

Ashen.2907:

I would hope that exclusive access to the top tier of armor in the game would be sufficient reward for raiding.

Yeah, a legendary armor is a reward enough in itself. I don’t see why anyone should be rewarded for being rewarded.

Talindra.4958:

Anet
pls make title and also achievement for making multiple set of legendary armors
just finished making second set, don’t see why I should make another set if there is no achievements or reward of making it. and the only reason to continue to play raids

If you really have no other reason to play raids anymore, then you should shift to content that still is fun to you.

(also, that’s why these kinds of rewards should not be used as a way to maintain participation)

Jski.6180:

Total dmg is very different from burst dmg. When you have a game like GW2 with every class having some type of heal on some level contestant dmg becomes weaker. The real dmg is burst dmg.

I don’t know about pvp, but in pve power builds are still stronger than condi ones at burst. It’s in the long run that condi builds shine.

I’d really love for the more recent achievements to give as many APs.

TexZero.7910:

Daddicus.6128:

They are not optional. You MUST do them if you want to advance your character as much as you can.

No you want to do them to attain some frivolous rewards, making them completely optional.

In that case everything in this game is optional. Which causes that (“but it’s not needed”) argument to become meaningless.

Vilin.8056:

With the introduction of Trailblazer and multiple buffs to condi skills, you can now output nearly same damage efficiency as a Berserker power class with the nearly highest numbers for vitality and toughness.

That’s not true. Any comparisons to that effect actually use viper damage output.

Amaimon.7823:

Astralporing.1957:

And when someone logs a tree with one of the previous infinite logging tools, they get wood but no unbound magic. You pay the same, but get more.

yes, that’s true, the previous infinite logging tools are different. However, that’s a choice you make. They’re free to unequip the previous infinite tools and equip the new infinite tools OR the season 3 bought tools.

Then they pay double to get the same.

Amaimon.7823:

However, this isn’t a discussion of whether or the sale is fair for people who bought previous infinite tools, the discussion is whether or not the tools are pay to win or pay for convenience, and currently, the arm is leaning to pay for convenience

Which still doesn’t make the existence of those tools okay.

Amaimon.7823:

When I log a tree with the new gathering tools I get wood and unbound magic, when you log a tree with the season 3 gathering tools you get wood and unbound magic.

And when someone logs a tree with one of the previous infinite logging tools, they get wood but no unbound magic. You pay the same, but get more.

Pve deserves that too (because, surprise surprise, only a small minority of PvE players are raiding, so it can’t honestly be called PvE armor).

Jski.6180:

@ PaxTheGreatOne.9472
Condi duration has no equal for power dmg. That along of gear sigil runes and food makes it much better then any thing power dmg could get.

Incidentally, Ferocity similarily does nothing for condi damage.

Jski.6180:

Duration -% is not dmg -% taking from condi dmg (duration -% tends to be a conter to soft cc not the dmg)

You really have no idea how condi works… if you cut the condi duration by half, you cut the total damage from every condi skill by half. If you cut the condi duration, you make it harder to achieve higher condi stack numbers, and thus decrease the condi pulse damage. People don’t take viper gear over sinister for cc applications. They do it for damage.

Jski.6180:

and there realty not much general condi dmg -% out side of some clases who have it.

As mentioned above, decreasing condi duration does enough of a fine job, and there’s quite a lot of options for that, if you just want to use them. And if you don’t use them, then you should not complain.

DakotaCoty.5721:

I agree more content legendary armors would be great, but can ArenaNet fix the complaints and issues with the current ones? Other legendaries have had drastic changes made to them, so it is possible – looking at Eternity here.

It’s a matter of accessibility, and effort needed. Not only envoy armor is currently aimed at a very small subset of the community, much smaller than the one that have access to legendary weapons, but armors seem to take disproportionately more time and resources to design and modify than weapons.

They’ve already sunk a massive amount of time in this one. Redoing part of that work would also take a lot of time. Time that would be more effectively spent on doing something that would please far more people (like, for example, designing a new legendary armor, more widely accessible)

Besides, some people seem to like it. I really have no idea why, but that nonetheless is true. Those people might not be satisfied with changes being done to the skin they liked – the end result may be less appealing for them, after all.

And, of course, that’s a third thing to consider – the redone version would also not be liked by everyone. It’s not like everyone that dislikes the current set have the same sense of aestethics, after all.

All in all, i just don’t see Anet justifying the effort needed to make any bigger changes to that armor. They are far more likely to distract people with a new shiny.

Now, if you are saying that this design was a mistake, i wholeheartedly agree. It’s just that i’m afraid it’s a failure you will have to live with.

They may fix some small issues with the armor, but that’s all. What you’re asking for is a complete redo of the chest piece, which simply isn’t going to happen.

They worked for a year for what we have now. Any such major change as you’re proposing would take a lot of time as well (chestpiece is the major part of the medium armor, after all). If they had that time and workload to dedicate for it, it would be more cost-effective to make a second set for non-raid content.

Which they definitely should do, for reasons that reach far beyond just aestethic ones.

Feanor.2358:

I see literally zero reasons to support your demand.

Then do so. Just don’t claim that the “arguments” about the mechanics you brought up earlier are valid. Don’t also try to put words in my mouth and misappresent my position. If you find it so hard to argue against me that you need to present some caricature of my goals in order to argue against them, then maybe your arguments aren’t all that good at all.

Feanor.2358:

Even if you are able to cheese some encounters like that, many others will kill you in different ways. You’ll run out of updrafts on Gorseval. You’ll get your platform destroyed on Sabetha.

Yes, i did mention the secondary “enrage” mechanics as well. Those would have needed to be removed/changed as well, which would increase the workload. But we were talking about specific VG mechanic after all, so i addressed that one.

Feanor.2358:

Astralporing.1957:

Not really, It takes maybe 2 or 3 tries for even really casual groups to grasp mechanics enough to survive the first phase. It’s the greens during the next phases that usually kill people. And notice, that with lower hp and no enrage the group might go with more tanky approach to more easily survive through that.

Dying to greens in the next phases is exactly failing mechanics. Or their interaction, to be precise. Lowering the HP of the boss wouldn’t help.

Not alone, no. Removing the enrage would be crucial here.

Feanor.2358:

And if anything, going tankier would simply counter it. There are ways to mitigate the constant damage pressure, but these aren’t newbie-friendly either.

The standard fractal setup of 4 necro+1 healer, modified for 10-man (so, 2 healers, 2 auramancers for safety net and pressure negation, 6 reapers with the heal on condi trait) would likely be able to do it by just outhealing greens. That’s hardly an advanced strategy. Of course, such a setup would be much, much slower, which necessitates enrage removal. Lowering boss HP would help a lot as well, because it would help to reduce the fight time for such a setup to relatively reasonable range (1 hour or longer kills are not reasonable for casuals, most people would not have endurance for those)

Feanor.2358:

Astralporing.1957:

But they often fail mechanics due to rushing or getting downed due to going full glass. Without the pressure of the enrage timer safer strategies might get used.

No, they get downed because they’re failing mechanics.

Sure. But with a different setup they might not get downed. That’s what “safer strategies” means.

Feanor.2358:

Being tanky doesn’t do anything of value in raids.

Because of the enrage timer. And because the boss hps push the potential fight time for the safer methods into relatively ridiculous ranges.

Feanor.2358:

But don’t sacrifice noticeable dps for being tanky. It’s pointless.

Yes. Because the timers and huge boss hp pools (and, sometimes, secondary timer mechanics) make it pointless.

Feanor.2358:

Astralporing.1957:

With the current powercreep you can steamroll while half asleep all over it. You just need to have one person who either was there before and/or read a guide somewhere.

I was talking about mechanics again. I’ve seen people fail mechanics on Aetherpath, fail them to the point they couldn’t do what we asked them to after explaining.

No. Not being able to play at the skill level required for raids does not mean not being able to dodge or read chat. The players you brought up here as an example are not a good representation of the group you were addressing then.

Besides, nowadays you can just flat out ignore most of the mechanics in those.

True in theory, but in practice all those uses and places are not equal.

Miellyn.6847:

Astralporing.1957:

But they often fail mechanics due to rushing or getting downed due to going full glass. Without the pressure of the enrage timer safer strategies might get used.

That’s the point though, to perform mechanics correctly under pressure. You are not supposed to tank through mechanics.
Safer strategies are possible, but leaves you with less space for mistakes as your damage is lower. You can recover from almost every possible mistake. Learning to recover without making it worse is also part of the learning process.

So, you do agree, that merely removing enrage timers can make the encounter easier, even if usually people do not die directly to the enrage.

Miellyn.6847:

Yes, raids do cost us some other content. We just don’t know what content.

Those people were hired prior HoT release specifically for raids. Those jobs simply wouldn’t exist without raids.

Those jobs, yes. That doesn’t mean Anet couldn’t have hired people for other jobs using the same money. That money wouldn’t have stopped existing if there were no raids.

(besides, i’m pretty sure not all of them were hired for that. Some, if i remember correctly, already worked for Anet before)

Miellyn.6847:

Raids are also not as hard as you claim. Once you get your first few kills with a static team the rest gets significant easier. There are enough relative easy bosses to train those basics, like Cairn which enrage does basically nothing outside of the challenge mode.

Getting those few first kills is a pain though. Especially if you can’t get a static team that won’t start coming apart after a string of not-quite-successes.

I’m not guessing here, i am actually raiding, and i know how much effort and time it took to get to the point where i’m killing at least some bosses reliably each week. And how much of that depended on me getting in static with people that are much, much more experienced at raids than i am. I also know painfully well how many of my friends didn’t make it to that point.

No, it’s not that easy at all.

Feanor.2358:

And people would still find it difficult. VG doesn’t kill you with HP or enrage, it kills you because you fail mechanics. Sure, lower HP would make the fight quicker, but you’ll wipe time and again in the first 1 min due to mechanics just like now.

Not really, It takes maybe 2 or 3 tries for even really casual groups to grasp mechanics enough to survive the first phase. It’s the greens during the next phases that usually kill people. And notice, that with lower hp and no enrage the group might go with more tanky approach to more easily survive through that.

Feanor.2358:

By the way, the above is true for each and every boss in the game. Enrage wipes are extremely rare and when they happen, they happen because people died early. Due to failing mechanics.

But they often fail mechanics due to rushing or getting downed due to going full glass. Without the pressure of the enrage timer safer strategies might get used.

Sly.9518:

Now if all the people want the lore would accept a cutscene done by a different team

As todays’ reactions to LS1 show, people generally aren’t satisfied by recaps and retells.

Vinceman.4572:

MerlinGamer.7410:

The raid team could be working on non raid stuff so the fact that there is a raid team does slow down other content releases.

Nah, that’s a wrong assumption.

They have several people on the raid team. Instead of them, they could have had the same number of people (not necessarily the same people) doing other stuff.

Yes, raids do cost us some other content. We just don’t know what content.

Feanor.2358:

I highly doubt said players will make it through Arah or TA Aetherblade either.

With the current powercreep you can steamroll while half asleep all over it. You just need to have one person who either was there before and/or read a guide somewhere.

TexZero.7910:

Raids are on par with the launch dungeons and the early days of Fractals (aka before ascended gear and a metric ton of power creep).

That’s not true. I have been running dungeons during that initial wave, and i remember only two times when we haven’t been able to finish the dungeon on the first go and had to reschedule. The first was our first dungeon ever (and we were seriously undergeared and underleveled then). The second was our first attempt at aetherpath (one player has fallen asleep at the last boss). Both turned out to be relatively easy at the second try.

When you remember the difficulties with dungeons, you likely think of the times when people were trying them at sub-80’s, geared with blues and greens.

Yes, the dungeons then were more difficult (that was before the nerfs, some of which were quite significant), but they were nowhere as hard as you claim.

The difficulty level of raids is something different.

Ayrilana.1396:

Ashen.2907:

Ayrilana.1396:

Lokki.1092:

Ayrilana.1396:

Lokki.1092:

Ayrilana.1396:

I’m not mixing them up. You’re focusing solely on one aspect of them, which may or may not matter to someone over the visuals, and claiming it to be better because of it.

Not claiming. It is a fact. The new tools are objectively, demonstrably, better.

When you focus solely on the bonus UM, while ignoring everything else, they are. When you include everything else, that’s not necessarily true as it’ll vary from person to person.

I have no idea how else to explain this.

They are functionally better, gathering more units in less time than the other tools
They are mathematically better, having faster animations than other tools
They are mechanically better, gathering extra materials than other tools
They are cheaper, costing overall less than other full sets of tools.

These are not opinions. These are measurable facts.

You can call the same thing however many different ways that you want but that is just one aspect to the tools which goes towards its value.

What he describes are the only, other than cost, measurable, quantifiable, aspects of the tools’ value.

And? They’re but one aspect that goes towards the value of an item. Look at items such as Rodgort and Flanes of War. A lot of people, including some in this very thread, would argue that one is better than the other and yet neither has a ‘measurable, quantifiable’ difference to the other.

That’s true when comparing rodgort’s with Flames of War. Previous infinite tools compared to unbound magic ones however do have such quantifable differences.

I don’t think i have taken it out of the context. For me at least it doesn’t matter if the bonus drop is Unbound Magic, geodes, or something else. It’s completely irrelevant to the crux of the problem. What is important that Anet opened the door to gear progression with gathering tools, and if they are not shown clearly that it is a problem, in future we will keep getting better and better tools, designed to replace old ones.

Gear progression started with ascended got stopped in time because people reacted really negatively towards it. Now Anet’s testig the waters for other forms of gear progression, seeing whether those will make it past the radar or not. Many people see that and protest.

Protests will stop when those people will stop caring about the issue. That will likely eventually happen, but only because those people will no longer care as much about the game as a whole as before.

UM becoming less interesting currency doesn’t have that much of an impact here.

Personally, i have never seen someone recommend ferocity food over power one, without someone else coming in with the math to show why it’s nto that much of a good idea. Might have missed something, though.

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

I feel the hub-bub over Unbound Magic will die down.

Of course. Every debacle eventually calms down, as people give up on ever persuading Anet to fix the problem. Notice however, than people deciding Anet’s never going to listen to them is usually one of the steps towards leaving the game. It definitely lessens their joy in the game, and the trust they put in devs.

In short, debacles die down because people that kept those topics alive become less and less active. In a game that’s otherwise healthy and thriving that most likely doesn’t mean much, but there’s a lot of debacles in GW2 these days.

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

I still think ArenaNet would want to avoid the “You lied” bad press right before an expansion release that would likely affect sales.

Agreed. That would be terminally dumb of them. They really need for that new expac to sell well. They definitely don’t need any bad press, especially one they’d receive for something that would have been easy to avoid, and what would not give them any significant gains.

Ayrilana.1396:

Lokki.1092:

Ayrilana.1396:

Lokki.1092:

Ayrilana.1396:

I’m not mixing them up. You’re focusing solely on one aspect of them, which may or may not matter to someone over the visuals, and claiming it to be better because of it.

Not claiming. It is a fact. The new tools are objectively, demonstrably, better.

When you focus solely on the bonus UM, while ignoring everything else, they are. When you include everything else, that’s not necessarily true as it’ll vary from person to person.

I have no idea how else to explain this.

They are functionally better, gathering more units in less time than the other tools
They are mathematically better, having faster animations than other tools
They are mechanically better, gathering extra materials than other tools
They are cheaper, costing overall less than other full sets of tools.

These are not opinions. These are measurable facts.

You can call the same thing however many different ways that you want but that is just one aspect to the tools which goes towards its value.

So? The tools have one aspect that is subjective, and several aspects that can be objectively judged. The subjective aspect will change from person to person, but the objective aspects will always remain superior to all other tools (except the mining pick, which shares the same problem). There isn’t even a single aspect of the older infinite tools where they’d hold objective superiority. It does not balance at all.

Ashantara.8731:

Amaimon.7823:

yea, I mean, since I got the backpack again, I’m optimistic

Well, did not work for me, so I am sceptic it’ll work for you. I had to continue on with the original unlock character for the remaining two mission reward items.

You must have chosen a different order backpack on that second character then.

Edit: Or perhaps there was one moment in the very beginning when it really worked like that. I think i remember there was some problem with the backpacks initially, but unfortunately i do not remember what it was. Might have been it. If so, it’s been fixed looong ago.

Feanor.2358:

I explained why it doesn’t happen and why it can’t really happen in games.

It worked just fine in GW1. It also works in sPvP (trying to use complex rotations there is just asking to lose the fight, actually).

You may like to press long sequences of keys on a tight schedule, and pretend that it makes you skilled, but all your arguments for supporting it are based on the assumption that they should be supported. An assumption that itself is not backed by any other argument.

Psientist.6437:

Astralporing, you’re claiming the studio made a formal statement to the effect that there would be no more gathering tool buffs. Can you or anyone else provide that statement?

Not quite. That statement i speak of is older than watchwork pick, and was made at the time the first infinite tool (molten pickaxe) appeared. At that time the cost was considered to be quite high, so people that considered buying it were asking if they can be sure that if it always remain the best mining option. The answer was, that it would. To be honest, the thing people were most concerned then was a possibility of tier 7 nodes, and whether the tools will cover those as well, but the questions were a bit more general. And so was the answer, as far as i remember.

That statement was one of the reasons behind watchwork pick outrage, by the way.

(unfortunately i haven’t found it, it’s rather old at the moment and the search function at this forum is not helping).

jheryn.8390:

Astralporing.1957:

some people will still buy them. For others, those that are after utility, the old tools suddenly became worthless. For some, the worth of tools they already had just went down.

Yes some will. What does it cost Anet to keep them around to let those who want them still buy them?

It costs them decrease of purchases by everyone else.

jheryn.8390:

Worthless? They still are able to harvest infinitely. If they feel they are worthless they have a strange sense of worth.

If you are in this for utility, and you can choose between two tools, both of which cost the same but one of which is functionally superior to the other, why would you ever pick the other one?

jheryn.8390:

Astralporing.1957:

It’s the same as with new tier of gear. You’re much more likely to pay a lot/invest a lot of effort into a gear set if you expect it to remain top tier forever, than if you knew it will be replaced by a better one at some point.

Well, if you look at it that way, you may be playing with sub-par gear for years until the “next best thing” arrives.

I simply wouldn’t have bought any.

jheryn.8390:

The most important word in that whole passage is assumption. And yes they did make that statement. I remember. They have also made statements about making things for sale you could also get in the game.

Do you think that somehow that second statement should give them a pass on breaking the first one? Because i don’t.

Feanor.2358:

And you’re wrong. Pushing “1” has very limited potential for fun.

I did mention i had in mind those short rotations that actually do utilize the skills, didn’t I? Autoattacking while ignoring other skills is as damaging to the game as thinking executing long series of clicks at a perfect timing make a skilled player.

Feanor.2358:

In general, the more basic a game is, the faster you exhaust its potential to be fun for you. And nobody plays a game which is no longer fun, except pro players who get paid for it. So games should offer more complex gameplay if their creators want to keep the players in the game in question.

Longer rotations do not create a more complex gameplay. Quite the opposite, they lock it at the very shallow level.

Again, you are confusing complexity of rotations with the complexity of the game.

Feanor.2358:

You’re still missing the point. It’s always going to be “mindless” by your definition. It doesn’t change the fact one is harder and less reliable. As such, it has to have an edge.

No, there’s no logical implication to that effect at all.

Feanor.2358:

Or it will be useless.

You are missing the point. You assume it has to be useful. Me, i don’t see any inherent worth in supporting them at all. Quite the opposite.

If they become less useful? Well, maybe Anet will streamline them too.

Remember, that the current long rotations are not a result of some design policy, but just a byproduct of either bad class design (engi), or hatchet approach to balancing (ele). They are a mess that should have been fixed long ago, instead of being raised as an example to follow.

joneirikb.7506:

Uhm, not entirely certain what you’re trying to do here ? You wanting to move from NA to EU or other way around ?

OP is talking about wanting to change region, so i’d assume that’s exactly the case.

Nah. You are assuming that harder rotations are somehow more valuable. What you are missing is that the rotations are equally mindless, regardless if they’re 6 or 66 positions long. There’s no value whatsoever in promoting using longer ones – quite the opposite, promoting them is the same as promoting a totally mindless playstyle.

Why you ask? The answer is actually hidden in what you said. They are “more unreliable, more prone to mistakes”, which puts stronger emphasis on perfect execution. There’s much less place for improvisation and reactive play. You no longer know or care what your skills do. You care only about clicking buttons in a precise order on a precise timing. That’s mindless.

So, i’m all for making the best dps builds having relatively short rotations (though not to the point where it’s mainly autoattacking – there should be a reason to use other skills).

Ayrilana.1396:

Mine is better than yours because it as a more appealing effect. Mine is better than yours because it gathers quicker than yours. What’s ‘better’ is subjective.

No. “more appealing effect” is subjective. Gathering speed and bonus drops are not subjective. You can argue about how much they’re better, but you cannot argue if they’re better.

jheryn.8390:

Astralporing.1957:

jheryn.8390:

Astralporing.1957:

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

For me, one has a superior animation, one has a horrid one, one has a decent economic fringe benefit, one has a more useful (to me) economic fringe benefit. Which is of those is objectively superior? They are just different.

Aestethics is subjective and is different for everyone. If we compare their non-subjective qualities however, watchwork pick and unbound set are definitely better than all other options.
Besides, i don’t think anyone should be penalized for their aestethic choices. That’s the very reason why we have skin transmutations in the game.

You are right. Aesthetics is subjective. That is exactly why some people will still be happy buying older sets. They like the look and don’t care about the added bonus.

Then not having this bonus would not have impacted them in the slightest, right?

That is the point. Whether they have the bonus or not, people will still buy them.

some people will still buy them. For others, those that are after utility, the old tools suddenly became worthless. For some, the worth of tools they already had just went down.

It’s the same as with new tier of gear. You’re much more likely to pay a lot/invest a lot of effort into a gear set if you expect it to remain top tier forever, than if you knew it will be replaced by a better one at some point.

jheryn.8390:

Even for the ones I purchased that I don’t necessarily care about the aesthetics, I used them and got benefit from them for a long time. I’m not going to complain about what is in the past.

I am, because my purchase was based on the assumption that there will never be a better set of tools. And that assumption was a result of explicit dev statement. People were concerned about this possibility originally, and did ask about it. If at that time Anet responded with their classic “it’s not off the table” answer, less people would have decided to buy those tools.

jheryn.8390:

It’s like buying a car and two years later they come out with the same model that has more features. You don’t go to the dealer and ask them to retro fit you old car with the new features.

Car isn’t an infinite tool, and it’s implicity expected to eventually be replaced and/or improved on. With infinite tools there was supposed to never be a better model. Those expectations were part of the price (many people would not have paid as much for a tool they knew would be obsoleted at some point in the future).

jheryn.8390:

Astralporing.1957:

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

For me, one has a superior animation, one has a horrid one, one has a decent economic fringe benefit, one has a more useful (to me) economic fringe benefit. Which is of those is objectively superior? They are just different.

Aestethics is subjective and is different for everyone. If we compare their non-subjective qualities however, watchwork pick and unbound set are definitely better than all other options.
Besides, i don’t think anyone should be penalized for their aestethic choices. That’s the very reason why we have skin transmutations in the game.

You are right. Aesthetics is subjective. That is exactly why some people will still be happy buying older sets. They like the look and don’t care about the added bonus.

Then not having this bonus would not have impacted them in the slightest, right?

Feanor.2358:

Astralporing.1957:

Yeah, the only useful builds should have at least 60 positions long rotations.[/sarcasm]

Except “optimal” isn’t the same as “useful”. Having a complex build deliver better result actually creates a choice rather than take it away. Having mindless “rotations” be the top dps options is the absolute worst thing for the game balance.

Maybe for you. Personally, i find the idea of maximizing dps by performing a complicated but set rotation, instead of having to react on the run to the situation, and using skills intelligently, to be the a far greater blight on the game system. It doesn’t matter how simple or complicated the rotation is – it’s equally mindless.

Yeah, the only useful builds should have at least 60 positions long rotations.[/sarcasm]

mXz.4512:

And why do you think there’s a skritt gathering tool, a cosmic gathering tool, fire, lightning, halloween, and many other themes? Because Anet is looking to give players a diverse aesthetic option.

And that’s all that it should be.

mXz.4512:

People make their purchases knowing what they’re getting

Yeah. I when i was buying mine, i knew (because that’s what Anet was saying at that time), that there won’t be any better versions of those tools in the future, and i can choose purely based on aestethics.

mXz.4512:

then throw a fit because something new comes out that adds a little extra, so what.

Did you see the backlash that introducing ascended armor generated? Do you see how people react to the idea, that new tiers that add “a little extra” should be introduced? It’s exactly the same situation. It’s just not everyone sees it, because there are no clearly visible stats to compare.

mXz.4512:

Are people gonna start griping that the older armors don’t look as flashy as the legendary ones next or that they allow changing stats? Doubtful.

First is about aestethics, so not relevant to what’s going on here. Second… yes, people actually are kittened off that the stat-swaping feature for armor is locked behind raids. Third, see my earlier response – this situation is more like introducing a new tier of armor.

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

For me, one has a superior animation, one has a horrid one, one has a decent economic fringe benefit, one has a more useful (to me) economic fringe benefit. Which is of those is objectively superior? They are just different.

Aestethics is subjective and is different for everyone. If we compare their non-subjective qualities however, watchwork pick and unbound set are definitely better than all other options.
Besides, i don’t think anyone should be penalized for their aestethic choices. That’s the very reason why we have skin transmutations in the game.

Ubi.4136:

Oh, when I clicked on the link, the person had all power/prec/ferocity armor and weapons…thought it seemed odd to call that “condition tempest”/

Then most likely you were looking at the wrong tempest build. Condition one is at the top of the page.

And? what does that have to do with the old tools being objectively inferior to the new ones?

On one hand you have a tool that gives you a certain QoL. On other hand you have a tool that offers you the same QoL and a few extras. The second one is just plain better.

Ayrilana.1396:

Astralporing.1957:

@Ayrilana: that doesn’t actually address what OP said in the slightest.

It does because they can get the exact same bonus from those. It takes so long to break-even with the new infinite gathering tools that players that have other versions are better off using the ones from the LS3 maps.

Read his post again, because you’re only making his point even stronger.

@mxz:
You might consider that other people might just have had different reasons about buying those. In fact, i’ll go out and guess that pure aestethics weren’t likely the primary reason most people buy infinite tools. I’d say that on average, QoL and utility would rate higher.

Not sure why having different priorities than your own is sudenly childish, however.

Ubi.4136:

Atomnium.1532:

DirtyDan.4759:

Condi Tempest. Camp on fire, spam everything. D/F, GoEP, Arcane Brilliance, Feel the Burn or Sigil of Fire, Fiery Greatsword.

http://qtfy.eu/build/elementalist/#condition_tempest

Best dps out there this patch against big bosses, the whole rotation fits in 5 short lines of text.

Basically easy, powerful stuff with very little to no effort.

I’m still trying to figure out how that build is called condition tempest. It’s just full berserker playing fire.

It’s viper/sinister, and the main damage comes from burn ticks, not from direct attacks.

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

Why can’t you use the Unlimited Gathering Tools on an alt?

First ones were character bound. He may not known that they can be exchanged for account bound ones (though tbh i don’t know if the option is available still).

@Ayrilana: that doesn’t actually address what OP said in the slightest.

Psientist.6437:

I agree with Astralporing, item progression in the gem shop is a slippery slope. It is the studio monetizing their role as the sole source of innovation and their superior position in a pronounced disparity in information.

The new UM buffed tools aren’t the exact equivalent to the Sprocket buffed tools because there are UM buffed tools available in game; players who use the gem shop do not have an advantage over players who do not.

That’s a different argument. the first (watchwork pick does somehing that cannot be obtained outside of gemshop) is a p2w argument. It’s a valid complaint, but not the one i had in mind. What i was speaking against is the gear progression in the gemshop. It’s selling an infinite tool, one that’s not supposed to be replaced, and then, later on, introducing a newer, better one. Not only without prior warning, but after assurances that the first one will remain “BiS”.

It’s not a case of comparing the infinite version to the karma one. This, by itself, is fine, as it’s just a matter of QoL. No, it’s a matter of comparing those infinite tools to prior infinite tools. That difference is not fine, and, what’s worse, it’s a change to the previous, unspoken rules. Once those are broken, and we silently accept this, it opens the doors for more (and bigger) changes.

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

I think it’s more akin to the Basic Salvage Kit and Copper-Fed-Salvage-O-Matic, than OMG, this item has made my purchases obsolete. It’s not like one could not have already used the exact same item, but in a limited capacity, before.

Wrong comparison. Yours is the difference between normal tools and infinite tools. This case is as if Anet decided to introduce copper-fed 2.0, that cost as much (both in gemshop, and, more importantly, per salvage), that would offer, a chance at some extra something (be it a watchwork, unbound magic, ecto, or something else) per every salvage.

Odokuro.5049:

Attrition is the breaking down of an enemy over time

Not really possible in the current combat paradigm. If you can’t kill your enemy before their skills go back off cooldown, then the fight practically resets. You have to either have dps greater than their healing capability (which can be really high for any defensive build), or be capable of a fast high-damage burst. Slowly chipping off their hp simply doesn’t work. It’s just a recipe for losing the fight.

Behellagh.1468:

Astralporing.1957:

Oh kitten. Did the watchwork pick debacle teach them nothing?

It’s not the same since you can buy expendable ones for karma. These is just the unlimited versions.

No, it’s exactly the same. It’s about breaking a certain principle, which is really dangerous. Before they broke it, i could be sure than what i buy from gemshop won’t become obsolete at some point in the future. Now i know that’s untrue, and Anet, in their rush for more shortterm income gains, will kitten me over (again) at some point. There will be a “new tier”. And that one won’t be safe from the same happening again either.