Guild Wars 2

Aether McLoud.1975:

“i like how ele’s try to validate their overly tankiness by saying it’s the only viable build.”

play one. it IS the only viable build. I’d love to play a more damaging build but it’s simply not possible.

If you don’t think a Scepter / Dagger roaming role with a Valk’s Amulet in some 0/20/0/20/30 build is viable then I’m not sure what to tell you. I flat out disagree with you. Do Ele’s have things that need to be fixed? Yes, every class has a bunch of gunk that is ineffective. The Ele has a fair amount more then normal, but both the Staff Bunker Ele and Sc/Da Roaming Ele are excellent right now.

I think what a lot of people fail to realize is that even if something is good, it isn’t really “better” then other options by much quantitatively. Skill, tactics, and strategy for the most part will triumph over simply selecting what the community views as overpowered for the current day.

Edit: Also keep in mind, that games go back and forth as well, just because someone wins doesn’t make them automatically better skill-wise. Games go back in forth between top teams, you win some and lose some. In this case though, very well done by SS.

Kalar Meadia.8439:

Was it shatter you’re more concerned with? (A build pretty much designed only to burst down single enemies and only effective if you can continually cone produce, which sacrifices the boon-striping capabilities you were complaining about earlier.)

In regards to the above quote, I’d just like to point out the 20/20/0/0/30 build that I use that can achieve both of these. Clones on dodge, boon removal on shatters, and Illusionary Persona.

I mean I generally agree with you that things are pretty balanced for the most part. I’m just pointing out that this is indeed possible, and I use it all the time. It also doesn’t just burst down single enemies, as the Shatters have a decent AoE effect when people are grouped up on a point. It’s not that large, but it can happen.

As for everyone complaining about Ele Tankiness, it’s a problem. They are actually more difficult to take down then a Bunker Guardian due to the extra condition removal and higher healing. Is it possible to counter? Sure, but if a Bunker Guardian’s durability is too strong then the same has to be the case for the Ele. You have to keep in mind a large chunk of the healing is splash healing as well, and is exceptionally powerful for team fights. Elementalists are very, very good right now in tPvP. Honestly though in open sPvP they are terrible however, due to the downed state. Their survival, support, and damage in a Scepter / Dagger roaming role however is something that should not be underestimated which it seems many here do. In my opinion, it’s better then having a Thief roamer.

In regard to Mesmers, Phantasm builds aren’t even an issue. That’s something that people are overreacting to. Losing to a Phantasm Mesmer is like losing to a 100B Warrior or Pistol Whip Thief. The problem is the Shatter Mesmer build, which is a little too powerful due to it’s damage combined with massive boon removal. Mostly due to the low, low cooldown of Mind Wrack and what it can do with Illusionary Persona. Portals are also a problem on with Trebuchet repairs, in my opinion.

Pretty much exactly what I like to hear from design developers.

I enjoy this game’s PvP more then any other I’ve ever played. As said above though, add a rating and ladder system and it’s pretty much perfect.

Endure Pain, Elixir S, Mist Form, and much more also remove your ability to hold a point as well. Thieves need to ignore stealth in order to be a point defender, and they can actually do a decent job with the Heal-Evasion-Condi build they have. As good as an Ele or Guardian? Probably not, but then the other 5 professions aren’t either.

While I may or may not agree with Thieves in particular, I think people seriously overestimate the effectiveness of stealth and kiting in a game that revolves around capture points.

Death Shroud is fine in a condition spec. You just don’t auto-attack in it, and instead switch in an out for the free bleeds and cooldowns. It still soaks damage, and besides I hardly get any chance to even possibly use auto-attacks when I was playing a Condi-Dmg Necro.

A Dagger Necro does about as much damage as an Axe Warrior. They just have the same issue of being rather vulnerable at that distance. It’s terrible in open sPvP, but in competitive tPvP it can have it’s place. There are a lot of things in this game (i.e. Engineers) that people have yet to realize how powerful they can be.

The Life Transfer subset of abilities does some underwhelming, until you do the math and see how much it’s actually doing with rapid attacks like the dagger. It’s still a choice between Blood and Soul though for traits. The trick with the Dagger Necro is they can have a whole metric ton of Chill to keep an opponent near them too. Again though, any glass cannon spec is just that, a glass cannon. A Necro’s profession defense is just extra health basically, which in a focus fire situation is garbage.

Elementalists, Guardians, and Engineers. Thieves and Mesmers are highly overrated, and unbelievably easy to counter. Just like the old Warriors were overpowered bandwagon that was around before, they are rather easy to deal with.

Dagger Necros and Scepter / Dagger Elementalists can do a lot of damage, and actually have a fair amount of tricks to mitigate that damage as well. The Necro probably still needs more tweaks, but generally this forum exaggerates horrendously with pretty much everything. A Dagger Necro in your face will do a lot of damage, and due to Death Shroud has a lot of “effective health”. A Sc / Da Ele can burst people down rather easily, and depending on the Amulet can be very difficult to take down. Heck even in a glass cannon setup they can be one of the harder ones to kill.

The problem is they aren’t really that fun in open sPvP, in my opinion. They tend to be weaker to “assist trains” then other professions, and that makes them somewhat weak there. In tPvP however, they are pretty good. The Necro in my opinion needs some Axe work, but beyond that it’s not nearly as dire as the community tends to think. Skill tends to be far more relevant then builds and profession.

I tend to pick Null Field. If it’s a shatter build, I pick Mirror Images over Blink as well.

Ah, sorry for misunderstanding you. I’m not really that concerned with it I guess personally, although I could see some glory boosts or something similar.

You get influence for winning matches. It does seem to be a little lower then PvE and WvW content (“events”), but we generate more then enough influence from sPvP.

Think about it this way. There is a massive list of planned features somewhere. They couldn’t do them all for launch. Dueling is planned, but as to when they can’t say because if they did and they missed that date then it becomes a whole storm of misplaced anger.

I’d consider a a zerg in sPvP to be a collection of 4 or more people moving together. I guess I don’t consider camping the spawn of an opponent a zerg. Oh well, moot point here, let’s move on.

I would love this as an eventual option. It’d be great for the eSports idea. I do realize that it’ll probably be quite awhile though.

There are still ways to maintain 100% uptime of Retaliation on Guardians, people are blowing this way out of proportion.

It’s planned at some point.

All I do is sPvP and tPvP, my highest level character isn’t even level 30 yet. In my experience people tend to collect together and run from point to point. It doesn’t always happen, but I’d personally see it as more rare to not have this zerging effect. Perhaps you have a different definition of a zerg in this game? I’d hate to be arguing definitions, as it’s a rather silly thing to do on an internet forum.

Knote.2904:

Ayestes.1273:

Knote.2904:

Just give it the Stability treatment.

Becomes a boon, 33% increase only.

Change Chill to be the counter condition (-33% action speed) and adjust durations accordingly.

I would love to see that. =p

Chill would be incredibly broken, and Quickness would be terrible. Quickness could be a boon possibly, but 33% increase is nothing over the course of 4 seconds. Chill is already one of the most powerful conditions in the game.

Making Quickness a boon doesn’t imply it’s still only going to be 4 seconds, and applied from a single skill.

Same with chill, as I said, adjust durations accordingly. smh

Ah, I didn’t connect the adjust durations piece to Quickness. Sorry about that. It’s possible, but I don’t think it needs to be fixed when I don’t really find it broken in the first place.

Even with incredibly short durations, I think that would be incredibly overpowered on Chill. This is coming from a user of Freeze Grenades, where I already find it incredibly powerful. Again though, it’s more of a why fix what isn’t broken aspect to me.

There are two ways to play open sPvP. In the zerg or out of the zerg. In the zerg you will get many, many team fights although they will often be imbalanced in terms of numbers through some reason or another. Out of the zerg you will fight many, many 1v1 and 1v2 fights which are completely winnable. Perhaps many of you need to try moving out of the zerg?

See the problem when we read that you and I come up with completely different concepts of what he said. You are putting words in his mouth. That’s what “reading carefully” means. You are over-interpreting it. I read it, and all I get out of it is that he thinks Retaliation on a Guardian is too strong and Bunker builds need to be looked at. I haven’t inferred some magical connection to claims that suddenly he wants burst damage builds to counter bunker builds.

Knote.2904:

Just give it the Stability treatment.

Becomes a boon, 33% increase only.

Change Chill to be the counter condition (-33% action speed) and adjust durations accordingly.

I would love to see that. =p

Chill would be incredibly broken, and Quickness would be terrible. Quickness could be a boon possibly, but 33% increase is nothing over the course of 4 seconds. Chill is already one of the most powerful conditions in the game.

Isabis.9561:

The skill which enables you to kill someone in 3sec even if they are not pure glass cannon is not fine in any context (e.g. "it’s useless vs players who know what they are doing). This just shouldn’t happen, it’s ridiculous.

Except they don’t even kill you. They merely down you. With a tiny amount of teamwork you can get back up (this does not exist in open sPvP), and they have exhausted their cooldowns.

Not to mention, they shouldn’t kill you. If you are running your own glass cannon build with no extra active mitigation, then you still have two dodges to deal with. At that point as well, you are risking your own defenses to deal more damage. Do you not want to die in 3 seconds? Then you need to dodge the control and/or burst. Or slot a defensive utility and use that. Or use one from your weapon slots. Or use control back at them. Or use a blind. Or kite and line of sight them properly. Or pick up an attribute combination that has higher vitality and/or toughness. Or pick up a rune combination that increases your defense rather then offense. There are many more ways to deal with it as well, such as picking up a trait that helps you survive as well.

To be frank, in the two builds I play the most right now, I easily avoid their control into a burst combo and at that point they are loaded up with Confusion. They often kill themselves before the Quickness ends. Rangers, Thieves, Warriors, and even other Engineers. The typical user of Quickness in open sPvP is awful, and it can be exploited to make them punished beyond belief for it. Even in good tPvP matches, Quickness bursts are rarely successful. I used to think Quickness was overpowered… in BWE1. Since then I’ve learned to deal with it. If I can figure it out in one weekend, I’m thinking the vast majority can figure it out during the lifetime of this game.

The condition removal in this game is LIFO, it wouldn’t surprise me if the boons were the same way.

It’s interesting to see opinions that I can’t even comprehend feeling myself. I love the PvP in GW2. I cannot even conceive how people would perceive the game not being skill based. How does my engineer then beat the traditional duelists such as a Mesmer or Thief? The sheer amount of interrupts and active mitigation in this game is astonishing. The conditions are devastating when used properly. There are tons of viable builds out there, and many small variations to these said builds. I can’t even understand why someone wouldn’t like it, but then I have to realize I’m not everyone.

Chuckles.8153:

Mr. Peter’s comment, “The counter to them is being countered by them” unless out of context is pretty difficulty to perceive in a different light.

That comment simply means he feels one of the best ways to deal with bunker builds is to also bring your own. Anything beyond that is why most devs don’t post opinions on public forums. People put words in their mouths and take a single word to mean paragraphs of data.

If you disagree with this, then you would agree to not bringing at least one bunker build into your tPvP. I personally would agree with Jon however, that in whatever the meta is right now bringing in at least one bunker build is a very smart thing to do. Does he plan to do something about it? Probably, but I doubt it is in the way you characterized earlier in the thread.

Any system that is designed with time translates into reward will never denote skill. At the very least, I wasn’t fooled into thinking that GW2 armor aesthetics would translate into skill. I don’t even see why this is much of an issue really, because it is just about looks. ANet typically does not treat exploits very well though, so it’s in their court. It can only be in their court though, if you actually report these people.

I don’t think Jon said burst should counter a bunker. You guys are putting words in his mouth. He thinks bunkers counter burst too harshly. We all know by now that you bring a poison condition damage build to counter a bunker. That doesn’t change the severity of how hard something else is countered, unless it is countered with the same severity. Fact is bunker builds even when countered take a good chunk of time to bring down. These aren’t countered with the same severity, primarily due to Retaliation.

Once you are at the point where both players understand each other capabilities, the ability to take advantage of Quickness is akin to a game of cat and mouse. That part is what we would call skill, and creating opportunities to use Quickness in this is method is in my opinion extremely fun. A build in this case can either choose to keep Quickness to see if they can trick an opponent into it and create an advantage for themselves, or slot another utility skill that would probably be more reliable.

Nerfing Quickness in this case makes it so that it’s entirely unusable. You don’t nerf things that are already questionable in value unless the reward is way beyond the risk and cost. The reward for successfully pulling off a Quickness burst needs to be high, or else the cost of taking it and possible risk of using it outscales the reward. In this case, the cost and risk are rather high. Additionally, it will always be unreliable. The only situation in which it is reliable is when you intimately know your opponents build, which is rare. The reward needs to be high, and I’ll agree that it is effective when pulled off.

I have no problems countering Quickness in the vast majority of situations as my Engi or Mesmer. If I make a horrible mistake though and get caught, I think it’s thrilling. I died because I screwed up, not because of the game. I need to get better. It creates a unique mechanic in these PvP fights where dodging at specific moments are much, much more effective then random dodging. Your dodging skill is exponentially more valuable against a Quickness burst utility.

Burst DPS is not king when everyone has at least two forms if not plenty more of active mitigation. Is it good? Sure, but so is sustained pressure. I mean, I play both and I cannot make up my mind which is better in tPvP.

Just report them and move onto another server. It’s up to the ANet devs if they want to do anything about it.

Quickness is flat out unreliable against players that know what they are doing.

It’s possible to hack. Doesn’t mean there is hacking for this, or that this specific case is hacking. There are also in game ways to mistakenly think that someone is doing this as well, however. The internet is also full of lies and exaggerations in general too, so take everything with a grain of salt here. I think far too many people are too emotional on this subject.

The game is more balanced then most people perceive. Thieves, Mesmers, Guardians, and Warriors are all very much counterable. Thieves and Mesmers are great duelists, which means you probably shouldn’t duel them unless you are just flat out better. That said, it doesn’t take much of a skill advantage for this to be the case, especially if you are a duelist yourself with AoE damage. Guardians are great bunkers, but easily destroyed by a Poison enhanced condi-dmg build. Warriors are great team fighters, but easily countered when you aren’t blind-sided by them. Does there need to be balancing work done here? Probably, but not nearly as much as people think.

Elementalists and Engineers are extremely good, especially in tPvP. Dueling and Team Support for both, and Bunkering in addition for the Ele are extremely, fantastically good. Need a trebuchet down? Bring the Support Ele. Most people won’t even consider that an option. Too many people are on the bandwagon of X killed me in sPvP and X is popular in sPvP therefore X is overpowered. Really, the only classes that need major work at the moment are probably Necromancers and Rangers, which need to have certain aspects buffed. Every class in general needs tweaking and bug fixes, but those two are what I’d deem out of the general balance of things.

Grenades and Bombs combined with Dual Pistols is probably the best hybrid damage build in the game. For WvW I’d probably switch more into Power though.

I’d trade every Mesmer elite for Supply Crate and Thieves’ Guild.

Unless the player who is Moa’d is outnumbered and/or terrible, the effects can be mitigated heavily with simple dodges and movement. This can easily mitigate the MH Sword, Staff, Phantasms, and Shatters which allows you to survive. To be completely honest though, a Mesmer wins most 1v1 fights unless it’s against another good duelist with AoE Damage. Which are rare, thus Moa doesn’t really change the outcome in a fight too often. Not to mention, the opponents you do lose to are the ones that are smart enough to dodge Moa. It’s largest use to me, personally, is making sure I can stomp in a 1v2. I’d rather be my Engi if I’m in a 1v2 fight overall though.

Time Warp is probably the best Elite in the game, except the Mesmer by itself isnt’ really that great with Quickness. Their damage is split among the Shatters and/or Phantasms, which mitigates the effectiveness drastically. Quickness in general is god mode, sure, but unless a profession is designing themselves to take advantage of it, it won’t be as effective as most people believe. I think this is a fantastic way of design and is also mitigated by it’s huge cooldown. A Bunker Ele or Guardian can usually survive a Time Warp 2v2 anyway.

Mass Invisibility probably has a lot of fantastic uses. Honestly it’s incredible while dueling an opponent as a Mesmer since stealth on a Mesmer is disorienting in general. However, use it at the wrong time and your team loses control of the point. Not to mention, it has a rather long cast time associated with it. It’s not hard to believe very few people take it.

Now, I’d trade all of that to have the Supply Crate my Engi has. Thieves Guild can be kited, dodge-rolled, and AoE’d down, but the Supply Crate is a massive heal boost, stun, and the extra “NPC” Support. The rest of the Engi elites are god awful, but Supply Crate is like my dream of an Elite. My second favorite is probably Signet of Rage, but this I could see is highly opinionated.

I don’t particularly think Guardians are that out of whack, but a Ranger Shortbow build stacking 25 bleeds on a Guardian is a bad idea if they have Retaliation up. A Trap build, or Engi/Necro with chill and poison can take care of Guardians.

Well the average skill level of a tournament is way down there… so you could bring anything and steamroll regular tournaments. It’s a bit difficult to discuss at that rate, because the assumption is someone who goes on the forums is leagues above the general crowd on average. (Although some vocal members on forums are traditionally, very bad)

Is it an optimal composition? No. Would it destroy newbies? Yeah. Will it destroy them anymore then a normal composition would? I’m not so sure. The only reason I think it might do so, is because they might be demoralized before the game even starts. Even if unreasonably so.

A pub stomping composition would probably just be 3 point defenders with 2 offensive roamers. Engi, Ele, and Guardian as point defenders with a Thief and Mesmer as roamers probably. As long as everyone has communication and can win their fights it’s an easy 500 to 0.

While I personally think it’s great fun to play not only with, but against my guildmates, friends, and family… I can see the why others would only like to play the cooperative role rather then a competitive one as well.

Judging off of their strongest tPvP builds:

1) Guardian
2) Elementalist
3) Engineer
4) Mesmer
5) Thief
6) Ranger
7) Warrior
8) Necromancer

You can still hit someone in stealth, just aim your attacks.

There are two ways to deal with this. See it coming and actively mitigate it in some fashion, or be picked up by an ally. Once the Thief has done this, he’s pretty much spent and is nearly incapable of combat for quite some time. Honestly, it’s rather easy to see coming and survive, but even if you do get caught by it the downed state is a rather effective counter-measure against burst builds in general.

The only input I have here is that I feel the trait that adds to Bomb radius is mandatory when using bombs. It makes the Smoke Bomb 3 to 4 seconds in team invulnerability on a typical capture point. The only issue with bombs is getting them to hit, and making sure they hit a large area is one of the best ways to do that.

As an aside, Smoke Bomb is in no way overrated. It forces your opponent into nearly 4 seconds worth of blinds or getting off the point. In a team fight, it’s the I Win button. The Burn bomb is extremely nasty in terms of damage output, and the confusion bomb throws out that incredible five stacks. Combined with the cooldowns on the pistols, it’s as much condition damage as a Ranger or Warrior bleed burst. Except in this case, your conditions are diversified into four types and are much more difficult to cleanse while being exceptionally easy to reapply.

The Bomb Kit is the reason Engineers can beat up Warriors, Thieves, and Mesmers so easily. Now you could trade out Elixir S for the Grenade Kit to ensure the death of bunker Guardians and Elementalists, but then you are vulnerable to Thief and Warrior burst.

What you do with the other utility slots is up to you, but I admit an elixir dedication with condi removal is one of the better options. It can also provide great Swiftness uptime.

It’s rather simple. Winning should give you +100 glory flat out. Being auto-balanced should also give you +100 glory flat out.

The trouble is a competent player and open sPvP are for the most part mutually exclusive.

Sjach Darasv.3729:

Hexd.4796

Replace condition damage with condition duration and then make conditions scale with power.

Right give the bad thiefs that think heartseeker spam a second way out by just spamming 3 instead when they realize spamming 2 isn’t going to work.

I want to point out that I find this interesting solely because I think the condition tank Thief builds are more effective then the Heartseeker spam ones already.

Bomb Kit and Grenade Kit… you should be having no troubles killing 3+ mobs at the same time.

I’ve always preferred the Pistol honestly. It’s really just a trade-off of offense versus defense here. Pistol 4 is a lot of damage, and Pistol 5 is incredible offensive utility.