I once sailed from Kopenhagen to Brazil and it took me 5 months. The flight back took me 8 hours. Somehow, i much more enjoyed the sailing and ports of call on my way to Brazil, rather than my return trip to europe, which felt like a waste of time.
But what was your objective? Was it just to get to Brazil or was it to visit a bunch of ports of call?
You dont even need ascended armor to get 50 AR.
What does that have to do with anything? The point is that ArenaNet claimed that ascended armor was not intended to be a grind. Whether it’s “needed” or not doesn’t matter. You can also do 99% of this game’s content at level 75. Does that mean we should turn the last five levels into a grind too?
Ascended gear isn’t a grind. Anet doesn’t require you to have it to play this game. You choose to make it a grind. Big difference.
You’re trying to link two statements together, but they are unrelated. Whether or not the gear is “required” to play the game is up for debate (and I think you and I would be on opposite sides of that debate as well), but it is irrelevant because, required or not, ArenaNet explicitly stated that acquiring it was never intended to require a grind. You yourself linked a post from last month where Collin reiterated that stance.
The second issue is whether or not a choice between waiting a year to get end game gear and grinding for it is an actual choice. I contend that it’s not a choice.
Even if you were to convince me that it was a choice, I would never see it as a pleasant one. The reason I stopped playing Guild Wars for six years was the realization that the faction that I had been happily grinding for through PvP was much more easily obtainable by repeatedly sending my heroes on the same quest over and over ad nauseum. That was a choice, and it was one that made me realize the game’s futility. I had already achieved every other non-grindy objective that the game had to offer by that point.
Grind is not fun in any form. Waiting for 1200 scraps of silk to accumulate in my bank isn’t fun either.
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Ascended crafting is not a grind. Players choose to make it one.
How is accumulating 7200 silk scraps not considered a grind? By your definition, nothing is a grind. Even foxfire clusters (which I should point out were intended to be a grind) are not a grind by the arbitrary definition you’re applying. Of course you can get silk without grinding. No one is complaining about the need for silk in crafting. It’s the quantity of silk that’s required that makes it a grind.
You need to read Colin’s definition of what a grind is.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/No-grind-philosophy/page/4#post4733273
You need to read it because this is what it says:
When our company president said we have an anti-grind philosophy way back before Gw2 shipped, and when it has been repeatedly reinforced since then, our statement is simply: “We don’t think you should need to grind to get the best gear and stats in Guild Wars 2”.
So what exactly does that mean:
- The best gear/stats: This means to have statistically the best abilities in the game, you shouldn’t need to, by our definition of the word, grind. This goes for leveling and getting top gear (by our definition that’s ascended gear, legendary being an optional extra thing you can do, but don’t need to do.)
- Grind: To us, grind means being required to do the same boring activity over and over again. In particular, the biggest reference we’re talking about here in traditional MMO’s is having to kill the same creatures over and over again to farm for levels or gear. In Gw2, you can gain exp and levels from a massive variety of game play, game modes, and content types. Same goes for the ability to acquire the gear to build up your characters. Similarly, ascended mats can be acquired from a wide variety of content types and game modes to allow you choice and options so you don’t need to grind to complete those goals. Our new mastery system continues to this promise as well, which we’ll go into more detail on soon.
I subscribe to his definition. The game doesn’t force you to get all Ascended gear. Players choose to. You can enjoy this game just fine with Exotic gear, or heck, even Rare gear.
The game doesn’t force you to get ascended gear, but Collin, who you claim you agree with, explicitly stated that ascended gear was not intended to be a grind. Others have said it, but I think it bears repeating, that a choice between spending a year gathering silk and grinding for a couple of weeks is equivalent to a choice between spending four hours walking 10 miles to/from work every day and spending 20 minutes driving a car. It’s only a choice in the loosest sense of the word.
By the way, yes I’m fully geared with all Ascended armor, accessories, amulet, Legendary weapon, and Laurel upgrades. I played smart, saved up mats before Ascended crafting came out, and was able speed through the sets. The only thing that slowed me down are the time gates, which I didn’t mind.
I wouldn’t call that smart; I would call it lucky. You crafted your set while the mats were plentiful before ArenaNet decided to boost the requirements. No one in this thread is even mentioning the time gating, because the rate at which mats are typically accumulated doesn’t even make the time gating relevant. Now you say that gold and silk are plentiful. Of course they are for you. You have no use for silk and can afford to dump it on the TP at 2.4 silver apiece. This is also why you don’t understand how anyone could have gold problems. I’ll bet you didn’t have to choose between spending 80 gold and 200 skill points on your traits and running map completion, WvW, and world events for them.
However, you still get silk, even though at a slow pace. I would wager that if your mostly play content that rewards you with little silk, you dont need ascended armor to play it.
Ironically running low level fractals is one of those activities that rewards almost no silk. I guess I don’t need ascended armor for those, but it would be nice to run the high level ones with my guild sometime.
Ascended crafting is not a grind. Players choose to make it one.
How is accumulating 7200 silk scraps not considered a grind? By your definition, nothing is a grind. Even foxfire clusters (which I should point out were intended to be a grind) are not a grind by the arbitrary definition you’re applying. Of course you can get silk without grinding. No one is complaining about the need for silk in crafting. It’s the quantity of silk that’s required that makes it a grind.
You can get silk by playing any content in the game that has the level range of silk. Mileage may vary but the silk requirements for ascended gear dont force you to play specific content. If you complete the same content over and over again to get silk because you think its the fastest way, thats your choice, not a requirement.
I’m not complaining that silk is required. I’m complaining that I need 1200-1500 silk (4.8-6 stacks) for one piece of leather gear. I’m saying that without going out of my way to grind (i.e. by the means that you claim is reasonable) I accumulate a stack every couple of weeks. For a full set of leather armor I need 24 damask. That translates to 7200 silk, or 28 stacks. That’s 56 weeks for leather. For armorsmiths it’s slightly worse, and for cloth wearers it’s even worse than that. Was ArenaNet’s intent seriously to keep non-grinders out of end game gear for a year? Whether grinding is a choice or not is irrelevant when the choice is between waiting for over a year to acquire a full set of end game gear and spending hours mindlessly grinding for mats.
I’m willing to bet that those arguing that there is no grind either enjoy grinding or crafted their ascended sets back when materials could be purchased and salvaged with karma. It’s in their best interest to maintain this system because it rewards their grinding disproportionately and allows them to unload a material that is now worthless to them at a premium rate.
IF you would have read Colins post, you would have read his definition of grind.
Especially silk can basically be acquired by killing nearly any mob in the game that drops loot, through salvage mats, bags or light armor gear.
I did read his definition of grind, and it still applies. The sheer quantity of silk that is now required cannot be acquired by just killing any mob in the game. Otherwise I would have a full set of ascended gear now that I’ve been playing for 10 months. In order to acquire the necessary silk I’m forced to focus on the subset of creatures that drops salvagable cloth/cloth armor and/or loot bags. That falls within Collin’s definition of grind, which used the word creatures (as opposed to the singular creature that you claimed).
I’d like to direct your attention to this post:
- The best gear/stats: This means to have statistically the best abilities in the game, you shouldn’t need to, by our definition of the word, grind. This goes for leveling and getting top gear (by our definition that’s ascended gear, legendary being an optional extra thing you can do, but don’t need to do.)
You’re making a mistake here. What Colin said is that you shouldn’t have to grind for the best gear. Ascended weapons and armor are not a grind, by Anet’s definitions. They are a long term goal, but not as long term as Legendaries.
My eye sight isn’t what it once was either. I’ve left the part that completely contradicts what you just said bolded for your convenience.
Players choose to make getting the best gear fast, thus they create their own “grind”. Because the players are responsible for this, they have no rights to complain. It’s like me deciding to go for my PhD in Economics, then complaining to the university that my degree is a grind.
If you’re suggesting that the work required to obtain gear in a video game well should approximate the amount of work required to obtain a doctorate then I think you and I have completely different perspectives on what a game should and shouldn’t be.
(edited by Bernie.8674)
Why do people assume that the changes to the refinement of silk bolts and their high requirement were only meant to get rid of surplus silk?
I think its way more reasonable to think they introduced those changes to have silk high in price as it is the only material used in all armor classes.
I don’t buy this because the T6 mats (powerful blood, ancient bones, etc.) are already used across all armor classes. If you want to apply the gold sink evenly then manipulate those. Silk requirements are not even across all armor classes. They hit cloth wearers the most.
Crafting ascended weapons didnt really occupy the player base for a long time after it was released, so they made sure that armor will take significantly longer
I’d like to direct your attention to this post:
When our company president said we have an anti-grind philosophy way back before Gw2 shipped, and when it has been repeatedly reinforced since then, our statement is simply: “We don’t think you should need to grind to get the best gear and stats in Guild Wars 2”.
So what exactly does that mean:
- The best gear/stats: This means to have statistically the best abilities in the game, you shouldn’t need to, by our definition of the word, grind. This goes for leveling and getting top gear (by our definition that’s ascended gear, legendary being an optional extra thing you can do, but don’t need to do.)
So what you’re telling me is that they deliberately made a change to enforce a restriction that the lead designer explicitly stated was never intended.
The statement “We don’t want people to grind” is factually a lie – if that were true, ArenaNet would not allow people to grind, much less make grind far more rewarding than not grinding.
Agreed. They used to have diminishing rewards built into the game. If you spent too long in an area grinding the same content repeatedly the drops would degrade in quantity and quality. They removed that constraint, effectively incentivizing grind over gameplay.
Are you sure about that? Pretty sure DR is still in the game. However, it is not known what the threshold for it to kick in is, as far as drops are concerned. Also John Smith did say recently that there have been very few people to have hit DR while farming/grinding. So it’s almost a non issues, but still in the game.
I’ve not read this whole thread so forgive me if this is answered elsewhere. I want to ask a few questions.
1. Is the loot system currently set up so people who play less are more likely to get an awesome RNG drop? There have been numerous posts like, “my friend logged on after 5 months and got X, Y, Z drop while I’ve been playing every day and got nothing!” I want to know if the way it works currently is that those who play lots get decreasing loot in proportion to playtime. Why would ANET do this? To keep people chasing the carrot.
John answered that question in a different thread, there arent any account modifiers.
what he is speaking of wouldnt be an account modifier, and it probably does exist, mildy. There is Diminishing returns on drops and it decays pretty slowly. You will in fact see more drops in your first few hours after not having played for awhile.
They will never tell us exactly what is happening, but your friend who plays rarely will basically have no DR for almost all of their playtime.
Still catching up, but I wanted to stop to be clear. No to this. This doesn’t happen, it’s a cognitive bias. There’s virtually no DR active on any given day.
I’m actually not sure. I deleted that post because my perception was based on anecdotal statements from guild mates. However, John Smith’s statement seems to back up the claim to some extent. There may be some DR in the game, but it’s been toned down to the point where almost no one ever hits it. I have guild mates who farm Silverwastes for hours without ever hitting DR. They used to have to switch out of whatever zone they were farming every hour or so.
More to the point, I’m sure Colin after five years of not thinking about it knows exactly what he meant five years ago. Hell most people don’t know what they meant a year later never mind five.
Imagine that someone asked you what you meant when you said something five years ago. Like you’d even remember. To a fan who listened to the manifesto this was a major thing and it’s ingrained in their psyche. To Colin it was one day out of many days making a game. What makes you think this is something so important to him he even remembers it.
It’s important to him because it’s his job. He’s the lead game designer. Regardless of what he thought five years ago, this is what he said last month:
When our company president said we have an anti-grind philosophy way back before Gw2 shipped, and when it has been repeatedly reinforced since then, our statement is simply: “We don’t think you should need to grind to get the best gear and stats in Guild Wars 2”.
So what exactly does that mean:
- The best gear/stats: This means to have statistically the best abilities in the game, you shouldn’t need to, by our definition of the word, grind. This goes for leveling and getting top gear (by our definition that’s ascended gear, legendary being an optional extra thing you can do, but don’t need to do.)
How is increasing the number of scraps needed for a bolt one time over the 2.5 year span of the game micro-managing? How is creating a new recipe which requires 100 bolts micro-managing? I seriously suggest looking up exactly what it means because it did not happen in regards to silk.
The same way that decreasing the number of scraps needed for a bolt would be micro-managing. That is effectively what he was referring to when he said “micro-managing.” Now that the silk surplus seems to have resolved itself it might be time to revert the earlier change. If it wasn’t micro-managing then it wouldn’t be micro-managing now. You can’t have it both ways.
@Bernie: Colin’s statement about not having to spend time “preparing to have fun” still applies despite the grindy nature of ascended acquisition. Very little content is locked away from players who don’t have ascended gear.
Very little content is locked away from level 79 players, but I remember going from level 70 to 80 in under two hours by following an event train around back before I even knew such things existed. The fact is that content is locked away and I can’t participate in said content with my guild mates until I either spend a year unlocking it or make a concerted effort to grind. Furthermore, they have no incentive to participate in dungeons and fractals with me because Silverwastes farming (i.e. grinding) is so much more profitable. I don’t understand how you say it applies despite <proof to the contrary>. In what world does that logic make sense?
Can the people who can only play 1-2 hours a night explain to me why they want ascended gear?
Because that is how the game was marketed. I used to play a game, WoW, that required me to devote 10-20 hours per week of dailies and organized play in order to obtain the best gear the game had to offer. Worse, they reset the treadmill every six months or so. I don’t want to play that game anymore.
I wanted to go back to my GW1 roots, where upon reaching the Granite Citadel I obtained the best gear the game had to offer. After obtaining superior runes through the normal course of play I spent a week or two hunting down elite skills. From then on I could farm for ectos or sell them as needed. They made no difference to my performance in the game; they were just cosmetic. That’s a true implementation of this no-grind philosophy. Guild Wars 2 has strayed from that. You act as if we’re asking for something novel and crazy. We’re not. We just want Colin’s vision implemented in this game as it was in the previous.
Can you explain to me why a game that claims a no-grinding philosophy should reward grinders with 5-8% higher stats? …..
Because they EARNED it by playing the game more?
You’re playing a game, not earning stuff. If you want to earn stuff get a job. If you want to play a game you shell out $40 and install it on your computer.
First, you did not get to the Granite Citadel in GW1 and just GET the best equipment in the game. It cost some significant gold (that you had to obtain in some way).
Actually, I did, and it didn’t cost significant gold or mats. Within my first month of playing I had 5 platinum banked with nothing to spend it on (that’s after buying the gear). I eventually donated it to my guild.
…and when did they say the reward system for GW2 would be equivalent to GW1….I missed that part of the interview.
They said it right here:
So if you love MMORPGs, you should check out Guild Wars 2. But if you hate traditional MMORPGs, then you should really check out Guild Wars 2. Because, like Guild Wars before it, GW2 doesn’t fall into the traps of traditional MMORPGs. It doesn’t suck your life away and force you onto a grinding treadmill; it doesn’t make you spend hours preparing to have fun rather than just having fun
And even repeated it in that same press release:
It all gets back to our basic design philosophy. Our games aren’t about preparing to have fun, or about grinding for a future fun reward. Our games are designed to be fun from moment to moment.
If you have your toon in Exotic gear, your complaints to obtain Ascended are simply unfounded. You have to GRIND to get to high level Fractals and that’s the ONLY game mode that requires Ascended gear….period.
So your explanation is that I have no cause to complain. I’m not convinced. This is like telling a level 79 player that they have no cause to complain about being unable to reach level 80 because they can just get upscaled in WvW and do just about everything except Arah.
98% of those complaining about “grind” in GW2 appear to have NEVER played a game that actually REQUIRES grind to progress in the game. THAT type of activity is what the GW2 manifesto is stating will not be present in GW2. It’s quite easy to twist any comment into the perception of a lie if your desire is to make someone out to be a liar.
But some of us are tired of playing a game that REQUIRES grind to progress and were hoping for something better from a game that claims to be redefining traditional MMO conventions. I also don’t know where you’re pulling that number from. I can play that game too: 98% of those disparaging these claims about grinding crafted their ascended pieces back when mats were cheap and are now raking in pure profit from those of us who were late to the game. My number and conjecture is as valid as yours.
Can the people who can only play 1-2 hours a night explain to me why they want ascended gear?
Because that is how the game was marketed. I used to play a game, WoW, that required me to devote 10-20 hours per week of dailies and organized play in order to obtain the best gear the game had to offer. Worse, they reset the treadmill every six months or so. I don’t want to play that game anymore.
I wanted to go back to my GW1 roots, where upon reaching the Granite Citadel I obtained the best gear the game had to offer. After obtaining superior runes through the normal course of play I spent a week or two hunting down elite skills. From then on I could farm for ectos or sell them as needed. They made no difference to my performance in the game; they were just cosmetic. That’s a true implementation of this no-grind philosophy. Guild Wars 2 has strayed from that. You act as if we’re asking for something novel and crazy. We’re not. We just want Colin’s vision implemented in this game as it was in the previous.
Can you explain to me why a game that claims a no-grinding philosophy should reward grinders with 5-8% higher stats? As for the relevance of high level fractals, why should difficulty of content determine how good your equipment is? If you want a greater challenge, shouldn’t you gear have lower stats?
And you effectively clarified this argument by describing a two hour grind. That’s not so convincing.
Tobias’s routine wouldn’t count as a grind by the definition Anet has given in this thread.
It would count as one for you, and for me, and seemingly for many others. Which is why Anet’s definition is so troubling; it’s quite self-servingly limited.
I don’t count it as a grind, mostly because I could be doing anything else if I decided not to earn Gold that day. I often do, because I’ll drop into WvW for two or three hours. I’m not doing it now because . . . well, SBI. Nuff said. Silverwastes pretty closely scratches that itch for WvW, though I only sit through maybe one and a half cycles.
I barely care if you consider it a grind or not, really. It was asked how I do it and I answered. It’s a routine I use because it’s what I find interesting enough to do instead of going “meh, log in – log out, call it a night”.
Except that the question was asked in response to this statement that you made:
Is gold a grind? I find it hard to say yes when two hours a day will net me roughly 5g without sticking my head into dungeons. If I did dungeons or spent longer, probably could up that to 20g. And I’ll lay out exactly how I do the 5g to anyone who asks – it’s not a secret, it’s not hard, it’s just working with what you have to do.
So I thought I was implied that I was asking how you made 5g every night without grinding. Your response was that you grind for two hours a night. You went on to clarify that you didn’t consider it a grind because if you didn’t want to earn gold you could do other stuff without grinding. I don’t understand your contribution to this discussion. We were complaining that the sheer amount of gold required to craft end game gear requires serious grinding, and you’re trying to dismiss these complaints on the grounds that you don’t need to grind unless you want gold. It’s like we’re talking in circles here.
You don’t micromanage markets to maintain equilibrium. Not only is it an incredible amount of work you can never be wrong in, it’s not physically possible inside a live game environment.
You assume that absolute parity is required inside of tiers, I don’t necessarily agree.
Who’s asking for absolute parity? A little variance here and there is expected. Silk scraps at 2000% the price of leather despite being gathered in the same manner goes beyond the bounds of variance. If you don’t micromanage markets to maintain equilibrium why were the crafting requirements for silk adjusted to begin with? According to IGN’s tailoring guide bolts of silk only cost two scraps two years ago. Obviously this was done to maintain some kind of equilibrium. Now that the equilibrium has clearly been thrown out of whack, this decision may need to be re-evalutated.
I’m having trouble buying your assertion that the two issues are independent. Many proponents of the existing system have repeatedly made the claim that the system works precisely because you go to obtain an intermediary item (gold) and exchange it for the item you’re looking for (silk). If silk were available from a vendor for a fixed price then I would agree that the two issues are separate.
No, he’s saying that there are two separate issues the complaints are based on. Either your core complaint is the price of Silk, or your complaint is the direct availability of Silk.
And I was saying that the issues are not separate. It’s not either/or. The price of silk depends partially on its availability.
So in the case of it being available – If you were given a direct source to farm Silk, but the price remained the same as it is, would you still complain?
Yes, I would complain. However, this is like asking me whether I would be upset if I ate a four course meal and was still hungry afterward. Yes, I would be upset, but I seriously doubt I would still be hungry. The same applies here. If I were given a direct source to farm silk that didn’t involve hours of waypointing and map-hopping from boss to boss then I would utilize that instead (like I did with foxfire clusters). However, I also know that plenty of farmers out there would do likewise, increasing the silk supply on the TP. The sheer number of sellers would naturally raise the number of undercutters, thereby lowering the price. The basic premise of the price remaining the same is flawed, so my answer to that question is irrelevant.
The opposite would be – If the price were low, but you didn’t have a direct source to farm Silk, would you still complain?
I probably would complain less (I prefer to gather my own mats, but I’m not typical). Leather is a good example of this. I’m always running out, but since a full stack is about 20 silver (the cost of 10 silk scraps), I just buy it off the TP as needed.
Again this feels to me like two separate issues. One of price, one DIRECT availability, meaning you go obtain an item, you do not go obtain an intermediary item and exchange it for the item you’re looking for.
I’m having trouble buying your assertion that the two issues are independent. Many proponents of the existing system have repeatedly made the claim that the system works precisely because you go to obtain an intermediary item (gold) and exchange it for the item you’re looking for (silk). If silk were available from a vendor for a fixed price then I would agree that the two issues are separate.
However, that’s not how the system works. There is no silk cartel in GW2 (that I’m aware of). Most players that I have spoken with simply match the lowest sell price on the TP at any given time when listing items. However, a certain percentage of players is always willing to undercut the current price. For this reason, as the surplus increases so does the number of undercutters.
The high demand for silk has completely eroded the surplus. This is why leather goes for coppers while silk goes for silvers. In other words, the price is a function of direct availability. I don’t understand how you can claim that the two issues (price and direct availability) are separate.
The buy price according to GW2spidy is 2s5c. A year ago when I made my Ascended armor, I was putting in buy orders for 1s95c-2s….
How much silk is actually selling at that price? Were there 699,111 stagnant silk buy orders a year ago? The buy price doesn’t mean much in an environment where so many buyers are lining up to outbid you.
Check the link. It shows historical data on actual sales.
And the link shows the number of buy listings steadily climbing (from 591k last week to 716k today) while the number of sale listings continues to drop (from 751k last week to 663k today). That tells me that those buy orders are stagnating because the sell orders are being filled faster than they’re posted. I doubt your buy orders are going to be filled in a timely fashion under the current environment.
Also, the prices from a year ago indicate that silk was at 1.33 silver, which is far less than the 1.95 silver that you were claiming.
(edited by Bernie.8674)
The buy price according to GW2spidy is 2s5c. A year ago when I made my Ascended armor, I was putting in buy orders for 1s95c-2s….
How much silk is actually selling at that price? Were there 699,111 pending silk buy orders a year ago? The buy price doesn’t mean much in an environment where so many buyers are lining up to outbid you.
Silk seems to be pretty well balanced. The price has been relatively stable, and provides a consistent income of gold for many people. I’m not sure why it “needs” to be changed at all. It seems to be the best off of the common mats. If anything they need to increase the leather needed from 150 up to 400. Mithril is pretty stable thanks to MFing of rare weapons, but with precursor hunt coming they may need to also increase mithril from 100 up to 200 or even 300.
Going by that logic, then the supply of other materials is too high. Why is silk going for 539% of the cost of mithril and 2633% of the cost of thick leather? If you seriously think it’s well balanced then I suspect you either have no cloth wearing characters or have already crafted all the ascended gear you need. At that point you have every incentive to keep prices high.
It seems silk is in a good place. It is rare enough that people want to farm it, but common enough that people make money off it just by playing the game. I think the other mats are the main problem, they are not worth farming and many times people just sell them to the vendor. This indicates to me that they are the problem, not silk.
As soon as the time comes to craft your revenant’s gear you’re going to be crying. Consider that even for leather a single ascended piece requires 1500 silk scraps. Even if you’ve maxed out your collectible stack size, you’re going to have to fill an entire stack just to get one piece. Is that seriously “in a good place?”
Does anyone have an actual argument as to why silk needs to be changed, other than “I don’t want to work for it, make it easier”?
Sorry, but this is a game. When I go to work I’m working. When I’m doing household chores I’m working. When I’m playing Guild Wars 2 I don’t need to work some more. If this game is going to make me work then I may as well find another diversion. It must be nice to be in a position where your RL obligations are so few and far between that you actually crave work in a virtual world.
I can gather almost 100 bolts for demask every 2-3 days from salvaging items drops and armor bought with dungeon tokens. Earn gold and gain scraps this way instead of “I want it right now” and throwing money at the TP. If people would stop acting rushed the supply would drop the price. The xpac won’t be for some time so really… no rush.
Damask is time gated to once per day, so clearly that’s the rate that ArenaNet was expecting for players to craft their gear at. I can gather 50 mithril ingots for mithrilium every 2-3 hours from salvaging nodes. How is pointing out that it takes eight times as long to gather silk making your argument any stronger? This is why mithril is trading at 0.44 silver per while silk is trading at 2.37 silver per. How is that fair to cloth and leather wearers? I’m sure you have silk coming out your ears now if you crafted your ascended gear back when silk was going for 1% of what it is now. Those of us who came late to the game, however, are hosed.
Currently having to buy ~1000 gold worth of gems to max bank tabs and ONE character’s bag slots is ridiculous.
Look at what you said: to max the bank tabs. I don’t think that’s so ridiculous. However, I do agree that a single character’s bag slot is way over-priced. That’s why I just don’t buy them. Ultimately it boils down to demand. If no one buys bank slots ArenaNet will lower their prices. As long as players continue to buy them ArenaNet has every incentive to keep prices as they are. They’re not running a charity, after all.
Didn’t say it was a good system. I just said they didn’t look at it from someone who quickly levels alts.
Or from anyone at all. Within a couple of months of starting my character in GW1 I had all the skills unlocked (including elites). I didn’t get GW2 until after the trait update, and I have yet to unlock all the traits on a single character (I have 5 level 80s with 100% map completion on one of them). Sometimes I’ll go out of my way to try and pick up a trait, but it’s really slow going. Some of these are just not going to happen. For example, I’m never going to befriend the ogres in WvW. The trait isn’t holding me back from doing the stuff I want, so it’s just going to remain locked. Maybe it would have been good in some experimental build, but I’m never going to know. GW1 was all about experimentation with skills. This game seems to completely discourage it. Maybe that’s as intended. Having everyone locked into a single build certainly makes balancing the game much easier.
Bernie: while I agree with much of what you said, the supply not meeting the demand isn’t exactly correct. As of now, according to gw2spidy, silk is sitting at 722,130 supply and demand at 614,942. Thats a supply of +107,189. The supply is enough to meet the demand. Silk isn’t even priced on the TP to make it unobtainable either. What the chief complaint is that it costs more and takes longer.
In the end people just want it now instead of a few days later. That’s what it all boils down to.
The demand reported by gwspidy is in terms of buy orders. It’s not straight demand. It represents the number of players who are willing to buy silk, just not at the listed prices. Note that it also shows the demand of thick leather as being 0. That doesn’t mean no one’s buying leather; it means that no one feels the need to counter-offer because at 9 copper apiece, you can buy a full stack of of leather for the price of 10 silk scraps. Your numbers indicate that there are 614,942 players who want to buy silk but are not satisified with the prices being offered.
With that in mind, let me clarify my original statement. The supply of silk is 722,130 while the supply of thick leather is at 16,302,299. Let that sink in for a moment: 16 million leather for sale vs < 1 million silk for sale. The supply of cheap silk doesn’t meet the demand for it. The minute a player posts silk for auction at the outrageous price of 2 silver each it’s gone. Even though over 600K players are priced out of the silk right now, there are enough players with deep pockets to keep the price high. Leather, on the other hand, is so plentiful that players are constantly forced to lower their prices in order to sell within reasonable time frames.
The problem you describe seems to have more to do with power leveling a new character to max through ways that didn’t let you either encounter the unlock missions as you play or naturally accrue SP and gold for that character. I believe the new trait system was only examined in terms of normal play and leveling, not rapid alt creation.
Except that even after taking my character through the normal play you described I was still at only four or five traits. Even after taking it through 100% map completion it was still missing 20+ traits. I don’t think his experience can be chalked up to a power leveling issue. Traits are an absolute nuisance.
at least REVERT for now…..
You’re repeating a plea that numerous others have been making for 10 months now. I’m sorry to say that I don’t think it’s happening. Would be nice, though.
essentially, when the price of silk drops to the point its no longer worth gathering, then people stop gathering it, the supply falls, an the price goes up, then people gather it again, until people find the point that all parties agree is the real value of the item. If you dont like the price you are free to get it yourself.
Except that your claim makes no sense in the context of the current situation. Silk scraps are 2.21 silver. Thick leather sections are 0.09 silver. Are you seriously arguing that players are farming the hell out of leather, causing prices to plummet, while ignoring the silk that is valued over 24 times as high? You can claim that this is a supply side issue, but reality doesn’t agree.
the difference between that and this, is that that since people cannot supply it directly, the supply does not adapt to the demand, and the price does not represent a value that people actually feel comfortable with, based on their daily needs.
Leather is obtained in the same way. How do you explain away the discrepancy between the two? Here’s how I explain it: ArenaNet artificially inflated the demand for silk. Over time the demand has grown faster than the supply. Unless supply is increased to meet that demand, prices will continue to grow. Relying on farmers to bolster that supply is not realistic. There is more than enough incentive for them to gather it now, but they don’t do so. Why is that? Some have claimed that it’s the lack of reliability, but I’m not so convinced. Leather suffers from the same condition, and it’s still plentiful. Adjusting the supply just isn’t enough.
The demand needs to be readjusted to match supply. There is no reason to require 1500 silk scraps for a single ascended piece when it’s running at over 2.2 silver a pop. That’s 33 gold worth of materials for once ascended item! Contrast that with the 1.3 gold that it would cost to buy 1500 thick leather sections. This is effectively pricing new non-heavy armor wearers out of their end game gear. If you think otherwise I’m willing to bet that you geared your characters back when silk was cheap.
I have to say that support for large groups is ArenaNet’s biggest weakness. WoW has a really great system in this regard. You join a raid and have access to raid chat. From there you are placed into parties and have access to party chat. However, that isn’t so important because everyone uses voice chat anyway.
A more flagrant flaw in ArenaNet’s system, in my opinion, is the lack of raid frames. In WoW I join a 40 man raid and see all of my 39 raid buddies as well as the four in my party. I don’t know why ArenaNet hides this info from us. We should be able to see who is participating in events with us, and we should, at a glance, be able to tell who is alive, who is suffering status ailments, who is within range, and who is close to death.
The prize for most annoying aspect of large groups, however, is the way that ferrying works. When I zone into a map I should zone into my group’s map 100% of the time. If the map doesn’t have room for the entire group then a new instance should be spawned so that it does. Organizing world events right now is a perpetual source of frustration because first you have to hunt for a relatively empty map and then you have to wait 20 minutes for everyone in the group to spam “Join X in Y Area” until the map empties enough for them to successfully ferry in.
First the CToU doesn’t say anything about creating a game based on Guild Wars. It does specifically state that you cannot create add-ons or expansions for any Arena Net games, and to use any of their art or images for toys, clothing etc. requires written permission.
Actually, it does:
May I use your art or images for items, such as clothing, toys, or other game-related goods?
Our art assets-be they concept art, in-game screenshots, verbal content, or renders-are all copyrighted materials. Their use is strictly prohibited unless approved in advance and in writing by ArenaNet. Specific questions concerning the appropriate use of our content should be directed to community@arena.net.
However, in this instance we are basically creating a tabletop RPG system (which at it’s core has NO theme, and nothing to do with Guild Wars, or Arena Net.).
That falls under the category of toy. However, if it has no theme and has nothing to do with Guild Wars, why is this question even being asked? Can you create your own tabletop RPG system? Sure.
Also, any stories, classes, items etc. that fall under Guild Wars and Arena Net basically fall under “fan-fiction” which is permissible provided they are not exchanged for monetary gain. This makes the whole project fall into a “fan made theme”. And there are provisions for such things provided proper copyright and trademark information is properly displayed and published.
Categorizing aspects of your proposed game as fan fiction is a stretch, but even if you can make that argument stick (and I’m not sure you can), you’re agreeing to the following stipulations, according to the CToU:
- You acknowledge and agree that no title nor any other form of ownership to the content has been or will be transferred to you from ArenaNet nor from anyone else
- You agree that ArenaNet has the right to require removal of our content at any time, for any reason
We don’t want to make money off of it, we don’t want to step any Anets toes. We just want to create a tabletop RPG that has provisions to fit the world of Tyria and allow people who are fans of such things to be able to have their own adventures. To be able to experience the Charr invasion of Ascalon from a Charr perspective. To know what it was like as an Asura being driven to the surface. To be there when the gods first touched upon Tyria. And so on and so forth.
Please read the content I linked earlier. You may have the best intentions, but commercial ventures are often willing to pay for rights to the content. By granting you these rights for free, ArenaNet is potentially undermining themselves in future negotiations.
Map completion does require WvW.
Just run to what you have. Don’t go deep into enemy territory if you don’t feel comfortable doing it. Goodness knows I didn’t.
Just to clarify Seera’s good advice (since you haven’t done WvW before), you don’t have to focus on getting all of a given area at one time because we randomly get assigned a borderlands on a weekly basis. So if you’re red one week, focus on getting everything that’s easily accessible in the areas available to the red world. About 90% of the time you’ll be able to run to any tower or camp that your world has claimed without any problems. It may take a couple of months (or less, if your luck is good) to get all the areas, but you will eventually get them all.
They have a discussion thread for it here: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/hot/Lets-Chat-Revenant-Masters-of-the-Mist
Although it says you can use Guild Wars intellectual property for personal use, it does state you can not use it to create games, etc. without prior permission.
You may be taking a chance.
Not just taking a chance; they would be violating the terms of use. Those terms are there for good reasons. Robin Hobb gives a good detailed explanation regarding such policies on the FAQ for her website at http://www.robinhobb.com/faq/
The very last question there is almost identical to the one posed in this thread.
Here’s an excerpt from it:
Or if the game developer purchases the rights and markets the game, the game developer may later take issue with someone else doing for free what he has paid for. The game developer may see it as a copyright infringement on the rights he has purchased. Or the person who has made the amateur RP may look at the game developer and say, “You took a lot of the ideas that I first came up with for my RP and used them in your game that you sold for money. That’s not fair!”
Often, when an author sells a publisher the right to publish a book, the contract will specify that the publisher can sell ‘sub rights’ as in movie rights or merchandise rights or gaming rights. If the publisher does sell those rights, then the author and the publisher share in the income from those rights. The publisher might not be happy to discover that the author had already given someone those rights for free.
This is why all rights permissions have to go through my agent. The agent keeps track of what rights have been purchased and by whom. If a writer gives someone permission to make a comic or an audio book version and at the same time the agent is negotiating a sale of those rights, things can get very messy for everyone, with possible law suits.
In this context she’s talking about her novels, but the same would hold true for other forms of entertainment, like movies and video games.
(edited by Bernie.8674)
Is this a form of Necrophilia?
I have NEVER done a World Boss and not gotten credit. You are doing something wrong and Megaserver is not to blame.
I will concede that getting some Events to give credit due to huge mobs (especially since the Daily changes), can be frustrating, but it’s not like other Events on the map don’t exist.
Re-read the post. He was complaining about not getting full credit for participating in the pre-events. I’ve seen this plenty of times in that Maw event he was talking about. You have to throw up an AoE right as the spawn is about to happen, and even then you might luck into Bronze-level participation because everyone else around you is doing the same thing. It’s kind of frustrating. Some of these bosses are laughably easy. Fire elemental is a prime example. If the run is going horribly he’ll drop AoE fire on the stack and I’ll have to dodge once. The event consists of killing mobs that spawn near the golem (they don’t stay up long) for about five minutes before the elemental finally spawns. At that point it’s pew pew for 20 seconds and collect the chest. This isn’t compelling game play.
Any forum member knows that not all comments are “words of wisdom.” Many are. Our position is not to close and ignore, but to close and move to a second round of discussion. We’d rather not see 14 posts by the same person saying the exact same thing. It’s really that simple, and that is what was becoming the norm in the former thread. Yes, even the most ardent supporter of the previous thread can see that this is what happened.
I confess to being guilty as charged in the previous thread.
Your feedback, whether given now or in the future when you have more information upon which to base it, will be valued, as always. But please, everyone, keep the feedback on the topic of traits. We’re not going to discuss the old thread, the decision to open a new thread, or forum decisions in general, for that is of little to no importance in the overall scope of things.
I stated my piece in the other thread, but since this thread is intended to reset the discussion in the post-HoT-announcement world, I have a few points to make.
I’ve seen lots of disappointment in this thread, and I think it stems from the ambiguity of what’s been announced. A system that supports where masteries are going is all well and good, or is it? The fact is that we don’t know. How this system is going to support masteries is anyone’s guess. There has been some speculation in this thread, some promising and some troubling. Every speculator’s opinion is equally valid because we honestly don’t know what’s going on. Here are my own opinions regarding some of the speculation that I’ve seen in this thread:
- Speculation — Traits won’t be available at all until level 80.
Personally, I don’t believe that ArenaNet would do that to us. Just because traits are going to support masteries doesn’t mean the two systems will work identically. - Speculation — Traits will be account-wide.
I certainly hope so. This would defeinitely be a step in the right direction. - Speculation — The new trait acquisition system will be more flexible with regards to choosing traits.
I’m not so sure how this would be implemented without complicating the system more than it already is. We already have a trait point system in place. Adding another trait acquisition point system would be kind of clunky. I’m not opposed to this idea, but I’m skeptical that it will be implemented. - Speculation — Players will have to purchase the expansion to reap the benefits of the new trait system.
The players venturing this opinion epitomize pessimism. Implementing a system like this would actually be extra work for ArenaNet. I doubt that they would intentionally go out of their way to antagonize players like this.
My advice to the implementers of this system is to ask these two questions before making any decisions regarding traits (or any other feature that is essential to character development for that matter):
- Is the task required to unlock a given trait accomplishable by a single player with a consistent but limited 2-hour window of play time?
- Will unlocking a given trait continue to be exciting on the second, third, fourth, and even fifth alts, or will it feel like yet another tedious chore to muddle through?
If the answer to either of those is “no,” I strongly suggest reconsidering that decision.
(edited by Bernie.8674)
Yes, frankly World Bosses take almost NO SKILL NEEDED, ill bring a ranger shoot from 1500+ range i hit every world boss in the face, no need to spam 2 just auto atk is fine. Dungeons in GW2 are fun but they are also old, getting new instances are better than nothing at all.
One player doing this can be successful. Everyone in the zone doing this is going to be a guaranteed wipe. If you’re auto-shotting your way through Teq successfully, it’s only because there are 30 other players hitting him with the turrets, cleansing the poison wells with the turrets, killing the tentacles, and protecting the megalasers. To say no skill is needed is a gross mischaracterization of how world bosses work. There’s a difference between succeeding in spite of one player’s incompetence and succeeding through incompetence. You’re equating the two, and that’s dishonest.
10 man raids are a defenite YES to me, You don’t have to do them if you don’t want to just as some people don’t WvW or PVP, But it is a new type of content that the current game has not yet added and i welcome it with its flaws, because i am sure that ANET listens to its playerbase and will make a More than 5 man party raid worthy to be called a RAID, just as they had done in GW1 with:
1) Underworld
2) Fissure of Woe
3) Sorrow’s Furnace
4) Urgoz Warren
5) The Deep
6) Tomb of the Primevil Kings
7) and the Domain of Anguish.
Those weren’t raids. They were guild puzzles with dungeon bosses. The only objection I have to that sort of thing is that interest in them is short lived. I wouldn’t mind having something like that in the game, but I don’t think it would add all that much, either. They would also be a little harder to organize here because you can’t pad out your groups with heroes and henchmen.
So why would raids/elite zones/missions be any different? Get your head out of other games raid systems please. I dont know how many times i can repeat that.
Please quit calling them raids, then. There have never been any raids in Guild Wars 1 or Guild Wars 2, so what other frame of reference to we have for raiding if not other games? Elite Missions resemble raids, but they are not raids. They’re more like guild puzzles with dungeon bosses. If you don’t want to conjure images of raiding in other games then don’t use that term.
I already have to rally guild members for when we do Guild Missions. To smoothly pass Guild Challenge, you need at least 10 people. So raids shouldn’t be a problem.
My guild does missions weekly. They take 45 minutes total. I’m talking the puzzle, the challenge, the rush, and the bounty. At the end of it all, we each have two gold, and sometimes and exotic or ascended piece. At the very least we have lots of rares for salvage and some guild commendations. You don’t even have to stick around for all of it. If you only have time for the rush and the puzzle before bailing it’s no one’s loss. That is nothing like a traditional raid. A raid is a multi-hour commitment that requires full participation. There may be minor payouts along the way, but the ultimate payout only comes at the very end. For those who are actually along for the rewards, enduring a multi-hour crawl only to come up with vendor trash at the end is extremely frustrating.
I respect the knowledge and anguish of raids that some of you are bringing over from WoW, but that is not what we, GW1 Veterans are requesting for. Just like you know WoW, I know GW. With the way ArenaNet is running things, I highly doubt they would release content that will highly segregate the population.
If you want GW1-style elite missions you should call them that instead of raids. My guild was one of the first to tackle the Deeps, and I was fortunate enough to participate in their efforts. However, I also have to say that once I completed elite missions I was in no hurry to do them again. Even if I had wanted to repeat them, it was tough to find others willing to slog through the instance yet again. That was my experience in GW1, and it was in line with my expectations. Large scale instanced content simply provides a bad return on investment from a game designer’s perspective.
How about “B team”? My guild solved this problem by setting up the B team. This raid was for PvPers, alts, those who were not ready for A team yet and those (main characters) who did not made it that week into A team raid because it was full. Mains who would normaly be in A team but registered for raid too late had guaranteed spot in A team raid next week. And gues what… it worked perfectly.
It works perfectly for the guys on the A team. It’s absolutely demoralizing for the poor saps who are stuck in remedial raiding. On the other hand, it’s a great way to gear them up and beef up their chances of getting into a guild that’s not going to treat them like second class citizens. Hearing you talk so casually about creating an sub group in your guild that is dedicated to gearing your alts just makes me appreciate the fact that I don’t have to see crap like that in this game.
So fractals and dungeons werent worth putting in the game because they create exclusivity? I think a lot of players would have a problem with what you are implying. Even players who dont spend most of their game time in dungeons and fractals.
When was the last time you saw a new fractal or dungeon? Besides, low level fractals are pretty easy. The most difficult fractals I’ve endured are still a little less difficult than the LFR version (easy mode raiding) of the SOO raid in WoW. I wouldn’t consider fractals and dungeons exclusive. I’ve two-manned some bosses, and I’m pretty sure that anything could be at least four-manned in there. No single player is going to prevent you from finishing a fractal.
(edited by Bernie.8674)
And this is the problem, one of your base needs is excluding others. That’s gotta be a hard sell to anet, and that inherently puts you in opposition with the majority of players.
In a nutshell, this is what raiding brings to my mind: exclusivity. Over the five years I spent in WoW I grew to be more and more exclusive of others because the raid-heavy environment punished me for acting any other way. This is ultimately what drove me to quit that game. I love that I can hope into Sparkfly Fen at 7 pm, make a healthy contribution to the Teq fight, and come away feeling good about defeating him rather than feeling rage about wiping when Teq was at 1% HP because one guy spent the entire fight dead, causing the rest of us to pull his weight. There are plenty of important things to rage about in this world. A video game is not one of them. When a game goes from being a source of relaxation to being a source of stress it’s time to move on.
And, yes there are zero-sum (or near-zero sum) elements to this discussion, because instanced difficult content inevitably involves resources that aren’t used on other game elements.
Well said. Someone mentioned jumping puzzles earlier. Even though I don’t like those so much, I’m not as concerned about them because balancing a jumping puzzle takes an afternoon. Balancing a difficult fight, on the other hand, is a completely different world, especially with eight different professions in the mix. Current content leaves a great deal of room for forgiveness. There are optimal builds, but those are focused on killing bosses faster as opposed to killing them at all. If the balance is off currently a boss takes 10 seconds longer to kill than it should. No one cares. When the balance is off in a raid, players rage. Balancing a raid is a very time-consuming undertaking.
At least you can’t say I’m not trying, but what’s a bad player to do?
I recommend that you inform yourself. I have found these videos to be a good start:
Basic PvE DPS Rotation guides
As for ranged vs melee, many classes do more DPS in melee, but there are some bosses on which melee is absolutely discouraged, regardless of how much DPS you do. So even after looking at those guides, be sure to consider the situation you’re in before blindly adhering to a generally optimal standard.
Do you even play GW2? There is absolutely no gear trend mill in this game.
Oh, then the 1500 silk that I still need to gather in order to complete the ascended set for my main character must be all in my mind, as were the six months it took to even max my crafting as well as the other three months it took to craft the few pieces I do have. I’ll be sure to hop in and craft the remaining pieces now that I realize there’s no treadmill.
Since when did I ever state I want to be more powerful than you?
Right here:
EDIT: Maybe raids can have NORMAL mode and HARD mode, with better more exclusive rewards locked in HARD CORE mode. That way, the not so skillful players can still stroll through the normal mode, and those seeking challenge can do the hard mode and get rewarded appropriately. Everyone wins.
Or did you mean skins? It looks like maybe you did, judging from these statements:
That doesn’t show that I’m a better/skillful player. ANet even said in HoT announcement that there will be no gear grind involved. This is GW2 aka horizontal progression aka Skin Wars 2. Give me an exclusive skin or item that let’s others know of my feat.
I absolutely hate gear grinding. Let me state it in bold so you don’t get confused again.
There is NO power creep in GW2 in terms of gear grinding
If you think you’re going to get nine other people together on a regular basis to grind through raids for nothing more than the promise of a better skin, then you’re going to have to brace yourself for some disappointment.
Why in the world would I go to WoW? I never played it, I never will.
Then you really have no idea of the connotations inherent in asking for a raiding system with exclusive rewards. I hate to break it to you, but many of us have played WoW at one time or another, and our shared experience brings certain expectations of what a raid is and isn’t.
Let me help you out. The only legitimate rebuttal that you have is that it “takes up resources that could have been used elsewhere”. Fine, okay. I can also say that I don’t like all the jumping puzzle (hypothetical, I actually enjoy JP) that they put in the game, since only a handful of people do them. So why waste resource on making more of them? See what I did there? None of us have concrete facts or numbers to dictate whether the allocation of such resources is a waste of time or not.
I absolutely despise jumping puzzles myself, and I would have been happy to say so if someone had started a jumping puzzle poll on these forums. However, this poll was about raiding, so I stated my opinion on that. Yours may differ, and that’s OK. You’re probably not going to change my mind, and I doubt I’ll change yours. From the sound of it, you’re thinking of Elite Missions from GW1 when you say “raid.” Those are similar, but I wouldn’t call them raids.
Some people did the full raid life and got tired of it. Tired of the progression gear and attunement lockouts and scheduling around 25-40 people.
That’s the least of it. Most of my raiding experience was in the 10-man category, and it had another set of problems altogether:
- Maintaining a healthy bench so that the show can go on if Mr. Key Player happens to get in a car accident and break both arms (yes, that actually happened to my progression raiding group).
- Soothing hurt feelings when someone has to sit out a week or two because the other 10 players who showed up have more experience and are more likely to enable the group to kill one more boss this week than they did the previous.
- Having to break the news to that really nice guy who consistently shows up week in and week out that he’s being cut loose because his reflexes are just not up to par and he’s holding everyone else back.
- Training up brand new players only to see them guild hop when they have progressed enough to have a shot at applying to a more progressed guild without being laughed out of voice chat.
I understand that some players want “challenging content.” That’s fine. There are plenty of games out there that are chock full of it. Pick one of those. Many of us are pretty happy with the level of challenge that this game provides.
The same arguement can be made for Triple Trouble, Tequatl and Silver Wastes. I forced myself to play those just to get a few achieves and exclusive rewards. I will never touch them again now that im done because they are just completely unfun and not worth the time. There is already exclusivity and inaccessibility in the game. I dont see why a new part which satisfies a rather neglected part of the community is suddenly so outrageous.
I’m at a loss. You are admitting that you find the closest activity that this game has to a raid to be “unfun and not worth the time,” but you’re asking for more stuff like that to be added to the game? You’re not being very convincing.
EDIT: Maybe raids can have NORMAL mode and HARD mode, with better more exclusive rewards locked in HARD CORE mode. That way, the not so skillful players can still stroll through the normal mode, and those seeking challenge can do the hard mode and get rewarded appropriately. Everyone wins.
The stuff in italics is exactly why I’m against raiding. First raiders want harder content. Then they want better rewards. Then they want even better rewards to sweeten the pot because otherwise there’s no way to get ten players to sign onto a 3 hour commitment on a weekly basis. Before you know it you have two categories of players: the ones in raid gear who do double the DPS of everyone else despite running the same rotations in the same way and the non-raiders who are looked down upon because they aren’t committed enough to have as good of gear. Thanks, but no thanks.
Basically, my abilities are not being tested, my mind can go on zombie mode and clear content as it stands. Raids may or may not solve that. It’s not everyone cup of tea, but with SO MANY OPEN WORLD EVENT MAPS coming up, it baffles me how you can even complain about what a few skillful players would like to see in the game. Seriously, how selfish are you?
World of Warcraft is calling to you. There are plenty of raids to be found there. I prefer that development resources in this game remain focused on content for everyone, not just on content for “a few skillful players.” There are plenty of other games out there that target that crowd. How selfish are you? Why do you want to turn the one casual game in the market into the same old raiding game that everyone else is doing? If you want raiding, please play one of the many others that provide it.