You aren’t asking for an improvement to the system, you are asking for things to be handed to you without the effort others put in for the same item.
Yeah, what the hell? Why would anyone expect to be able to play a game without having to put in the same level of effort that a real-life job requires?
Silk is “difficult” to come by. It’s not actually all that difficult, it’s the main cloth you generally acquire when salvaging level 70-80 junk gear. If you salvage everything you get, like I do, you get a pretty fair amount of silk over time.
A fair amount, indeed. You need to fill an entire bank tab with stacks of silk to get enough to make the cheapest ascended set in terms of damask. If you’re a cloth wearer you can fill an entire tab in addition to a maxed collectible slot and still not have enough silk to craft your ascended set. Those who think it’s “working well” most likely crafted their damask back when silk was going for nine copper rather than two silver and never had to dump 80 gold on traits. “Money is no object,” you say? Well of course not, when you can sell a full stack of silk for five gold. If you’re still crafting your gear, however, that five gold is coming out of your pocket, making money a perpetual issue.
So, silk is hard to get so it’s expensive. You need more of it, so demand is higher making it more expensive. You then need more of it again increasing demand more, making it more expensive. Finally you again need more of it, further increasing demand, further increasing the price.
It is the single most in demand material because you need to most of it, as a result the things you make from it are expensive. The more of it you need to make them, the more expensive they are.
That’s how economics works.
I don’t think anyone disputes how economics works. The issue is the artificial demand that’s been created for silk at new players’ expense.
But I propose this to you: How many times have you been stacked in a corner, bursting down an enemy with all of your zerker friends, when all of a sudden, one or two or even three of your party get put into the downed state (after all, you are all standing on that big boss and taking all of his damage), only to be immediately rallied off a nearby low level enemy, or speed ressed by the rest of the party? The party finishes off the boss, collects rewards and moves on. There was no real consequence for those players ‘dying’.
Holy crap, what were they thinking by neglecting to punish players??? You’d almost think we were playing a game!
I dont get why this thread blew up like it did, when everything said is unfounded. I mean, CONSTANTLY? So I can log into the iron marshes right now, and it would be dominated by trolls, talking about sex, swearing, and I would be immediately assaulted verbally.
Probably not Iron Marches. I recommend Lion’s Arch or Sparkfly Fen right before and right after the Teq event. I also wouldn’t say “dominated,” but I personally see one or two infractions pretty regularly nowadays.
How did this hold water with anyone? And before you say “well, just cause you didn’t see it…” CONSTANTLY ON EVERY MAP.
I don’t know what the OP’s experience is because I don’t play on their account and/or server. Personally I see this problem sometimes. For what it’s worth, I think ArenaNet does a much better job of policing their chat than Blizzard. I personally don’t think the problem is as widespread as the OP makes it out to be, but chat is by no means perfect, either. I am, however, puzzled by the number of players who are chiming in to defend the “rights” of players to act like seven year olds who just discovered that dictionaries contain swear words. It’s not like ArenaNet is asking for everyone to become vegetarians. Just be a little more selective with respect to word choices.
Then why are you guys trying to push the property owner for more? Isn’t it the property owner’s right to moderate their property way they see fit or should it’s boundaries for leniency be restricted just like a person’s speech?
No one is trying to push them for more. They are just asking for the Rules of Conduct that were already laid out by ArenaNet themselves to be enforced. As you yourself stated, ArenaNet has the right to moderate their game in the way they see fit.
And that’s another point I want to put on the table:
Does the inconvenience of a minority justify modifying policy and inconveniencing many more? If OP had their way, around 30%+ of the population would be banned right now. PvP and WvW would feel a population hit aswell.
Absolutely it’s justified. Otherwise mob rule would control everything. You’re also belittling the point when you refer to harassment and hate speech as “inconvenience.” The game’s culture affects the entire player experience. Having to click an extra box every time you post an auction is inconvenient. A barrage of references to kitten and racial slurs is beyond inconvenient.
Why should everyone change because a group of players refuse to use the block tool anet has provided?
No one is refusing to use the block tool, but the nature of the tool is that by the time it’s used the damage was already done.
(edited by Bernie.8674)
So wait, if a player says something to me, that may not have any ill intent. like lets say, “hey, you need to be moving more often to not die. Standing still is wrong”.
If that makes me feel distressed, I have the right to report him, because he is making me feel bad about my playstyle?
You have the right to report him, but ArenaNet probably won’t take action unless he was being abusive about it. In other words, this is probably OK:
Please quit standing in the red circles on the floor during the cannon barrage phase because we’re wasting precious minutes trying to resurrect you instead of DPSing the boss.
This is probably not OK:
L2P you noob! GTFO the circles. If you don’t take off your ***ard helmet I’m kicking you!!!
It’s not necessarily what you’re saying, but how you’re saying it. By the way, this is irrelevant to the original post.
In which case, if I continue to die over and over, and the group gets no where, that person could be feeling distressed, and report me.
And no action would be taken unless you could prove that the player in question was intentionally griefing you.
In other words, your own personal play style can cause distress to others, giving you the right to report them.
You can report for whatever reason you want, but ArenaNet isn’t obligated to take action. Besides, frivolous reports are also prohibited by the Rules of Conduct:
You may not use the Guild Wars 2 reporting system to inflict harm upon or harass another player, to submit false reports, or to cause undue load on our servers. Individuals who abuse the reporting function will be investigated and will face possible account suspension or account termination.
Causing unwanted attention to other players. Oops, I guess i should be reporting all those who say “bunch of dead bodies not running back”. They are drawing unwanted attention to other players, which could embarrass them.
No, because the player in question didn’t specifically mention another player. They’re simply stating that there are too many dead bodies so they’re leaving. To be honest, I couldn’t care less whether a player stays or goes, let alone why they do so. What do they want? A “Fair Weather Friend” achievement?
“bunch of afkers here” – that’s a double report there. Reporting the afk’s, and reporting the people who call them out.
Again, no names are being mentioned. You’re calling attention to an action: AFKing. There is no rule against that. There’s a difference between “Report the AFKer in the corner” and “Report Player X for AFKing.”
Time to walk on eggshells now, even when playing a game.
You’re condemning the entire system on the basis of a few extreme cases that are subject to manual review and will likely have no actual impact on the game. You don’t need to walk on eggshells. Just don’t be a jerk and you won’t have anything to worry about. For what it’s worth, I didn’t see anything in your post that I would expect ArenaNet to act on.
1.) Freedom of speech is a right (at least in NA servers. idk about the others :P).
It confuses me how often people use this as some kind of excuse to allow them to say whatever they want.
It is part of the Constitution of the United States. They need no other reason.
Here’s the actual text that you’re referring to:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
ArenaNet is not, to my knowledge, a member of Congress. Therefore the first amendment has no relevance. The more you know…
This is ridiculous, I’m not an mmo newbie, I understand how aggro and mechanics work. My gear is all lvl 63+ and I’m doing a lvl 70 personal story. Every one of my abilities and traits is defense related, nothing is offensive compared to other choices I could pick. I have either healing abilities with damage or healing abilities with effect cleansing capabilities and defensive traits related to Aegis, healing or other.
I’m not talking about incompetence, I’m talking about being in a fight and reaching a point not even 30 seconds into the fight where you’ve been forced to use everything and you’re out of options because enemies swarm you, regardless of whether you engaged them or not.
This isn’t WoW. You can’t go full tank and pull every mob in the zone while levelling. The best description I’ve seen of the way combat works in this game is in this video.
There is no Noxxic for Guild Wars, but there are some good videos out there. For Guardian you might want to look at these:
You can take or leave the advice, but I’m pretty sure you’ll learn some new things about your class after watching these. Good luck!
Why does no one play here?
Because, unless the Karka Queen pre-events are going, five minutes in Silverwastes will net you as much loot as an hour in Southsun Cove, and everything in this game is all about gold collecting. That’s the sad reality of it.
Your and my experience of WoW grind must have been a very different one. Take off the rose tinted glasses. The grind in WoW was just as bad if not worse crafting wise. Go some where and you had you materials after a couple of minutes? More like fly (ride for the vanilla players) for multiple hours hunting shared material nodes to craft useless items just to increase your crafting skill.
I didn’t play vanilla WoW because I was too busy playing the superior Guild Wars 1. I started playing at the end of TBC, but I didn’t max any of my crafting until WotLK hit. However, my experience from then on was that I gathered most of the mats I needed to max my crafting while levelling and never needed to spend more than a couple of hours at max finding the rest of the stuff. You could also make up deficiencies via the auction house without bankrupting yourself.
There is also one of the biggest differences. WoW crafting was primarily a tool to get to max crafting level for the next expansion to craft those 1-2 items that became obsolete 2 months into the expansion. In GW2 crafting actually provides items required in the ingame economy, big difference balance wise.
I agree that the aspect of WoW crafting that is so frustrating is the rate at which BiS gear goes obsolete. WotLK and Cataclysm did a decent job of keeping crafting relevant by giving out new BiS recipes with every content dump, but they backslid in MoP. That’s one of the reasons I decided to give this game a shot. +1 to WoW for making crafting more fun than GW2. -1 to WoW for rendering crafting useless. There’s a reason I don’t play WoW anymore.
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This. I think most people don’t understand what grind is. Anet never said there would be no grind, they said there would be no grind due to power creep (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_creep). Same as in GW1. Now you might object and think other things like gathering gold etc. to get skins, legendarys etc. constitutes grind, but none of those items are required but optional goals. On top of that there are multiple ways to aquire/reach said items/goals.
Except that they did say there would be no grind to get ascended gear:
When our company president said we have an anti-grind philosophy way back before Gw2 shipped, and when it has been repeatedly reinforced since then, our statement is simply: “We don’t think you should need to grind to get the best gear and stats in Guild Wars 2”.
So what exactly does that mean:
- The best gear/stats: This means to have statistically the best abilities in the game, you shouldn’t need to, by our definition of the word, grind. This goes for leveling and getting top gear (by our definition that’s ascended gear, legendary being an optional extra thing you can do, but don’t need to do.)
Yet here we are. Just because power creep is included in their no-grind philosophy doesn’t mean it’s the only component of it. As for requiring grind to get skins and legendaries, I personally have no objections. However, I don’t think a grind-only end game makes for a compelling play experience.
Are you really sure there is not a way , or there is not an PvE Heart Vendor that sell soulbound 64-73 lvl gear in the Open world , for simply with Karma ?
Are you really sure you cant buy 200 Soulbound Blue Cloth Armors with the Karma , from that vendor and go straight to the Mystic forge to combine then ?
Are you really sure that if you combine 4 Soulbound (blue items) wont give an Unsoulbound item that you salvage for Silk ?
Are you really sure that buying 200 items, combining them in the forge 50 times, and salvaging them qualifies as “not grind?” I’m not. I believe that the Guild Wars 2 design manifesto would categorize this process as “preparing to have fun rather than just having fun.”
So, give thanks to a group of players with a crappy attitude for losing a support player. Guess it’s back to my Warrior where all I care about is swinging my sword.
This isn’t the game for that. The way this game is designed, everyone in the party is a support, control, and DPS player in one. Making a conscious effort to emphasize support is wasted because everyone already does that for themselves. I recommend that you view this video, titled Editorial: The Guild Wars 2 Trinity and Combat System — Damage, Support, Control. It’ll help you understand why this isn’t the game for players who prefer support-only roles.
I totally ambiguous because nothing there define what Anet means by grind. Besides, that’s not a promise of a grind free game either.
I’ll repeat it again. I was talking about ascended gear. Why are you generalizing my statement to “grind-free game?” Also, read the post I linked. The definition of grind is contained there.
That’s true Ascended is mostly just time gated. There isn’t any significant grind to it, unless you force it to be to get the mats.
The time gating is not an issue. The mats are the issue. Specifically, the mats required to craft damask. When it takes 30 days to gather the 300 silk scraps for a single bolt of damask, the one-a-day limit isn’t even a factor.
About as much ambiguity as there is in the fact that you don’t need to grind to get ascended.
That may originally have been true, but the sheer quantity of silk that is now required (7200+, depending on your class) combined with the current cost of silk has made it a requirement in the current game. The alternative is to “naturally” acquire silk at the rate of about 10 a day (which is about what I average from doing my daily completionist, participating in weekly guild missions, opening the bandit chest in my instance, and engaging in a random activity — world bosses, fractals, dungeon run, etc.). So we’re looking at roughly two years to craft an ascended set without grinding. If you know of a way I can complete my ascended set sometime in the next year without grinding I’m glad to hear it. In the past anyone I’ve asked suggests that I run champ trains and silverwastes. In otherwords, grind.
You’re missing the fact that Anet defines the expectation, not the customer. I think the only thing you can fault them with is being ambiguous.
You’re missing the fact that I was specifically referring to ascended gear, and just last month Colin explicitly called out ascended gear as an element of the game that the manifesto promised would be grind-free. He also stated that this intention still holds.
I frankly don’t even think they promised a ‘grind-free’ game. I would love to see the source of this statement because it seems to be taken as gospel truth. People just latch onto something they didn’t understand in the first place. What I can tell you is that Colin recently addressed this and I did read that … they seem to be closer to what they want to achieve than what people give credit for.
Well , you’re in luck because I just happen to have the source right here:
When our company president said we have an anti-grind philosophy way back before Gw2 shipped, and when it has been repeatedly reinforced since then, our statement is simply: “We don’t think you should need to grind to get the best gear and stats in Guild Wars 2”.
So what exactly does that mean:
- The best gear/stats: This means to have statistically the best abilities in the game, you shouldn’t need to, by our definition of the word, grind. This goes for leveling and getting top gear (by our definition that’s ascended gear, legendary being an optional extra thing you can do, but don’t need to do.
I don’t think there’s any ambiguity about that.
(edited by Bernie.8674)
People keep bringing up necessity, but necessity is irrelevant.
It’s not irrelevant at all. Without demonstrating a reward as a result of repeating content is a requirement to advance or access other parts of the game, it’s not a grind.
In the context of this argument it is irrelevant. Let me put this another way. Suppose you enjoy playing your game at ultra settings. Prior to purchasing a new computer you research the system requirements for playing the game at ultra settings and make your purchasing decision with those requirements in mind. Then upon installing the game you find out that those requirements were, in fact, understated. As it turns out, you are actually going to need a really beefy computer to play the game on ultra. By your logic you really have nothing to be upset about because you don’t need to play the game on ultra settings. However, that doesn’t change the fact that you were given a set of expectations, that the game failed to live up to those expectations, and that you’re disappointed in your purchasing decision because it was made under what amounted to false pretenses. The purchase wasn’t a complete loss because you’re still going to get some use out of that computer, and you can still play the game. However, there’s no getting away from that bitter aftertaste. Need doesn’t enter into it. The fact remains that expectations were set, but expectations weren’t met.
Necessity is not defined by the player, it’s defined by what is necessary from a game mechanics. Here is why … that perception of necessary could also be used to justify why Anet should just mail me a full set of anything I want —- which would be ridiculous.
People keep bringing up necessity, but necessity is irrelevant. ArenaNet stated that in their game players were not going to have to grind for BiS gear. It’s that simple. Bringing up necessity is straw-manning the issue.
Here’s my stance: By the time you’ve hit level 80, completed your personal story, and attained 100% map completion you should have obtained your BiS gear under a system that works as ArenaNet claims.
How are you making the leap from that to “Anet should just mail me a full set of anything I want?”
ArenaNet claims they never intended for ascended gear to be grindy. In my opinion they failed miserably at that. I believe that even WoW’s gearing system is less grindy than the current one because at least in that one you have to make your way through an entire raid to get your drops. Under the current ArenaNet system you just spend all your time trash farming in Champion Trains/Dry Top/Silverwastes/Living Story du Jour. As much as I’ve grown to hate raiding, it is still more engaging than defending four forts that have identical mechanics ad nauseum.
Some claim that this isn’t grind because they were able to get what they wanted by playing the way they wanted. Good for them, but when they clarified how they liked to play, it turned out that the way they want to play was to grind. The other common argument is that it’s not grinding because you can pick from a variety of grinds. You can run Champ Trains, WvW, Dry Top, and/or Silverwastes. Sorry, but all that crap is the same to me: repetitive, mind numbing, and only fun for about 45 minutes. LIke the title of this thread says, “Grind is Grind.” Just because you have 4 different forms of grind to pick from doesn’t make it “not grind.”
(edited by Bernie.8674)
And this is the real problem with a gold-based economy, they need to balance out risk vs reward, something that unfortunately doesn’t exist in this game. In this game, the easiest activities that take no effort, like chest farming with a huge group of people in SW, has more rewards per hour than doing actual content.
I think this is the heart of the problem too. The disparity between the reward for grinding out mindless content and the reward for engaging in challenging activities over-incentivizes any player interested in even basic rewards like ascended armor to grind.
So more difficult content has lucklaster rewards compared to the easy modes. If the higher difficulty content had better rewards, then more people would do that and don’t feel the grind as much.
Exactly.
Grind = the REQUIREMENT to REPEAT content over and over and over again to get NECCESARY equipent to proceed the game.
This game has no grinds unless you selfimpose them.
Ascneded armor is NOT neccesary.
Legendaries are not neccesary,
Skins are not neccesary.
I’ll give you the other two, but ascended armor IS necessary if you want to have the best stats the game has to offer. Would you be content being stuck at level 79 forever? By your logic it’s not necessary.
I haven’t been bringing this up because every time I do it derails the thread, but five years ago ArenaNet said that they did not intend a grind for ascended armor, and just last month Colin reiterated that they still hold to that. So whether it is or isn’t necessary, the fact that acquiring it is a grind conflicts with ArenaNet’s stated intentions.
no offense but that seems like a very boring guild to be in
no new members? no alts to gear up? no map completion ? guild missions ? if your not doing these things no wonder your bored with the game
I’ve been with some members of my guild since the GW1 beta. My guild, in its current form, has been together since about 2006. It’s a pretty good guild. We do guild missions, but those take 45 minutes (rush + puzzle + challenge + bounty) a week. Other than that, everyone does Silverwastes because that’s pretty much the only way to reliably buy a precursor. I’ve always been kind of an oddball because I could care less about skins. I’ve never been into farming, and that’s why I quit playing GW1 in 2008. I’ve reached a point in this game where I’m about ready to call it quits for another six years. 10 silk per day just doesn’t feel like progress when you have 3600 more to go.
In the other thread I did an anology that I think it fits great.
Person A starts his first job. Wants a car. Does the Math and finds he need to work for a year to save enough in order to buy that Car. Works his year, enjoys his job and finally gets the car. All is great.
Person B starts his first job. Wants a Car. Does the Math find out he needs to work for a year in order to buy the car. Person B thinks a Year is just way too long so he starts 2 more jobs and cuts down the time required to get a car from 1 year to 4 months. Works for 4 months, enjoys none of his jobs cause naturally he’s all burned out finally gets a car but he felt it wasnt worthed going through all of that.
And if the story ended there, we would all live happily ever after. But Person B is now used to working two jobs and decides to buy more cars because buying them is fun. The dealership realizes that there are lots of Bs out there looking to get multiple cars, so they jack up their rates to the point where Person B is now having to work the two jobs for a year to get his next car. Person B doesn’t mind so much because he already got his first car, and he plans to simply resell the next set of cars anyway. Besides, he’s so used to working two jobs now that he doesn’t even tire anymore. The fact that car prices go ever higher benefits him because he can buy more cars, squat on them, and then resell them later for megaprofits. Person A, in the meantime, goes back to the dealership a year later only to find that he’s now going to have to spend an additional three years working his job in order to get that car. You can argue that Person A isn’t required to work two jobs all you want, but the fact is that without working those two jobs he’s just going to keep coming up short at the dealership.
Running in circles trying to attain that magical and elusive grand prize:
Consensus--This amulet radiates power and hums a low tune. (Special effect: Randomly plays General Lee’s Dixie horn when a player jumps with this item equipped.)
- +42 Power
- +42 Precision
- +42 Toughness
- +42 Vitality
- +42 Condition Damage
- +42 Ferocity
- +42 Healing Power
- +100% to Magic Find
This thread is such a grind.
How much silk do we have to grind to craft Consensus?
“That is what is meant by “no grind philosophy”. You can play the type of content that you like and will still get the same rewards as everyone else.”
Except if that type of content you like is hunting down items?
I would say that even if you don’t like hunting down items you aren’t getting the same rewards as everyone else. I defend a fort in Silverwastes for five minutes and come out with a 8 bags of masterwork gear, some imperal fragments, a few bandit crests, and a few silver. If I invest the same amount of time in any other area I’ll come out with 1500 XP, 1000 karma, and a couple of silver. I don’t think the rewards are anywhere near the same. Your options are to farm Silverwastes for anything in the game you want or to spend eight times longer in any other area. Spending an hour in a fractal will net you the same rewards that 15 minutes in Silverwastes would. How is grinding optional again?
Grind is different from optional grind though. If you say have to grind to level, it’s different than if you don’t have to.
I think you and I differ on our definition of optional grind. To me, a grind is optional when it rewards players with cosmetic account bound items and/or the account bound materials to acquire those cosmetic account bound items. However, when a grind is the most efficient way to obtain the currency that enables players to do pretty much everything else in the game (like Silverwastes is), it is no longer optional; it’s the optimal way to play. I contend that that the optimal way is not optional for many players. The overemphasis on grind in this game drives TP prices out of reach for non-grinders. For that reason I don’t think it’s accurate to say that grind in this game is optional.
As an aside, pretty much every active member of my guild grinds exclusively. All the other content (dungeons, fractals, etc.) is pretty much dead to them.
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You did not have to.. the most bad excuse ever if it comes to grind. But sure your right. If I want the flying carpet in WoW I can do a craft for it, if I want a mini in that game most of them I can earn with quest or as a drop from a dungeon or get with a craft.
Sadly WoW is far less grindy. If you want to grind for something like a carpet you spend maybe a couple of days gathering mats for it. You don’t have to play the auction house; you don’t have to trash farm; you just gather the mats.
In GW2 if I want to hunt down such things I have 2 options buy them (what is not playing) or grind gold. So in order to get them I have to grind!
Bingo.
Then you say.. but you do not need the items. Sure, in WoW in order to do the highest level raids you need to grind for gear (or at least so they told me, I did never try that). But of course that would then also not be valid because you do not have to do the highest level raids.
Believe me, that argument was made by WoW players all the time. It’s a big part of why I haven’t been subbed to that game for over a year. “Why do you want raid gear if you’re not going to raid?” Well, genius, it’s because every single other PvE activity in the game is about 300% more convenient with the raid gear!
So the term grind is a fantasy word, it does not exist (in games). At least by following this “you don’t have to, so it does not count” logic.
I’m glad someone else gets it. By the logic being applied to ascended gear, we don’t even have to hit level 80, either. I mean, 90% of the game’s content is available to you at level 75. All you’re missing out on is Arah, Drytop, and Silvewastes. Why does anyone need to be level 80?
Now back to reality, I never said people should not be allowed to grind or games may not allow for grind. The problem here is that it’s the only option IF you want something (like cosmetics) while the game-play of hunting then down in the world has been replaced by the grind. Now you might not consider it grind because it’s optional but that does not change the fact that for other people it does matter. And maybe enough to matter for the game as a whole.
I agree that the means of obtaining cosmetics in this game is also pretty ridiculous. Ideally you would be required to master a really difficult task in order to obtain your cosmetic, and then you would repeat that task maybe once a week until you obtained it. This is why WoW put caps on the number of raids everyone could loot from ever week: so they don’t get the grindy feeling. This game, on the other hand, facilitates and encourages grind.
“But you can work on the same goals slowly without grinding too. That then becomes a choice.” Not true, they will add new items faster than you would ever earn the stuff by normal playing (depending on your playstyle) plus that because other people grind, prices will go up meaning those who don’t will always be behind (you want item x, cost 5 gold, you get 5 gold by now it cost 6 gold, you got 6 gold it cost 6,1 and then the next step you manage to get it, meanwhile 5 new items you like were added.).
This is one of the more frustrating arguments because “slowly” is so vague. If by working towards them “slowly” you mean I have to spend 6 weeks working towards them, I’m not that bothered. When I have to wait a year and a half to get my end game gear by playing like a normal person and not a professional gamer, then I think we’ve taken “slowly” to extremes.
“But if I were in a game where the only gear better than mine was in a specific dungeon, to get that gear I’d have to run that dungeon repeatedly, which to me IS grind. There is no other option but to run that dungeon.” But that is only IF you want that better gear, so it’s optional, That then becomes a choice. So no grind if I follow what you did say before.
Honestly, running the same dungeon every day would feel like less of a grind than defending forts and killing Mordrem champions in Silverwastes for hours on end every day (which is what active gameplay in my guild has degenerated to).
“Someone who likes to hang out in Queensdale can level to 80 in Queensdale. Do you know how few MMOs that’s true of?” Not sure how that is relevant.
Yeah. I don’t remember anyone complaining about leveling being grindy. That’s the one aspect of the game that isn’t a grind. Ironically enough, it’s the one they overhauled and streamlined this past year.
Pagga’s Waypoint and Waywarde Way both have nearby clusters of trees that spawn every day. I recommend visiting those every few hours or so. I’ve gotten up to five clusters at a time from them. More often than not, though, I get one or two. On rare occasions I’ve come up empty. They’re very popular foxfire cluster farming spots, so you’ll frequently find surveying banners near them as an added bonus.
As far as evidence? I haven’t seen any yet. Everything said is that it takes a lot of materials/time. I am not denying that. Yes it takes a lot of materials, yes it takes a lot of time.
And time was also mentioned in the manifesto:
Because, like Guild Wars before it, GW2 doesn’t fall into the traps of traditional MMORPGs. It doesn’t suck your life away and force you onto a grinding treadmill; it doesn’t make you spend hours preparing to have fun rather than just having fun; and of course, it doesn’t have a monthly fee.
Then again, technically you’re right. It doesn’t make you spend hours preparing to have fun; instead you get to spend months or years.
And you gathered the requisite silk well after the change as well? Without any grinding?
Most of it yeah. Bought what I could when I could, but gathered a very large portion of it just playing and doing what I wanted to.
So you bought what you could using whatever money you gathered exclusively on your new character before you were expected to dump 80 gold on traits and 300 gold on a commander tag, right?
For my second set though, I choose to do Silverwastes. Not only because it’s an awesome for silk gathering, but I really do enjoy the event. I love organizing the map, taxiing people in, and collecting massive amounts of loot and monies. Lots of rares available which I toss in the forge. I’ve gotten quite a few exotics, and an ascended chest from this. It’s awesome! For me the extra silk is a nice side effect for doing what I enjoy. If I felt that I needed to do Silverwastes in order to get any silk at all, then it would become a grind. As it is, if I am having fun, and collecting along the way, it’s a win.
And for your second set you chose to grind. If map hopping through Silverwastes via megaserver were an immersive experience for me I probably wouldn’t mind doing it either. Unfortunately after my first three hours in there, it became an absolute borefest.
No one is disputing that you can get ascended gear after the change. The dispute is over whether you have to grind for it or not. “Most” of it wasn’t grinded. None of mine is grinded either. After my next piece I’ll be able to claim that “most” of my set isn’t grinded. Grinding the rest of the set is still going to be grinding. I’m doing mine without grind, and I’m only half way through after 10 months. Why? Because I enjoy variety. I don’t want to treat a game like a stint on the assembly line.
(edited by Bernie.8674)
I’d like address this. What you’re doing is highlighting the problem that exists in this game, and many others. People are jealous of success, and look for ways to justify calling TP players terms like “exploiting”, “manipulators”, or “cheaters”.
Yes. Jealous of success. To be honest, I could care less what anyone else has. What irritates me is having to gather crazy amounts of a resource that was cheaply available to everyone and is now out of reach. In another thread someone claimed that ascended gear wasn’t a grind because obsidian shards only took weeks to obtain. I had to laugh, because they clearly had not tried to craft ascended gear recently. If I could dump the million karma into silk the way I can into obsidian shards we wouldn’t even be having this discussion.
Wanze, Vol, and other expert players understand the Demand of certain items, and in turn sells them for a profit to others who are willing to pay their prices.
I don’t begrudge anyone their success in the virtual market. However, I take exception to the idea that every player in the game would be expected to do this in order to acquire their silk in a timely manner.
What about other players of skill? Yes, we can all be jealous of the SPvP Champions. Their game play is above and beyond what many of us are capable of. But I’ve yet to see anyone call them “cheaters” for knowing how to coordinate map strategies, and team compositions to be the most effective group.
Now you’re completely straw-manning. What do SPvP champions have to do with the cost of silk?
From a psychological standpoint – The difference here is that being a TP player is much more in reach to nearly everyone, while being an expert PvPer is not. Because everyone has the opportunity to trade on the TP for profit, but don’t make the efforts to do so, they’re really angry at themselves.
This is just plain wrong. Not everyone has the opportunity to trade on the TP for profit. Profit always comes at someone else’s expense. When one player profits another loses. In fact, there’s a 15% net loss to every transaction. That’s the way the system works.
This anger then manifests outward to the very people they wish to emulate. These people need to take a step back, and focus that negative energy into a positive attempt to learn Wanze’s skills. Learn how to buy low, sell high, and understand breakeven price points so they, too, can make money on the TP.
We are pointing out that the silk requirements for ascended gear are onerous. I don’t know how you are interpreting that as an expression of anger towards people we “wish to emulate.” Personally I don’t wish to emulate any of those people you mentioned. In fact, the point we make time and time again is that we shouldn’t have to emulate those guys who want to treat this game as anything other than a short after-work diversion in order to get our end game gear. The manifesto itself promised that we wouldn’t have to do that, and Colin reiterated that promise just last month. Whatever jealousy you’re perceiving in that argument is all in your mind.
If Anet gave players everything that they wanted, the game would last one week. We’d all have 50k Gold, full Ascended armor, and every Legendary weapon upon purchase of the game.
Who’s asking for 50k gold and legendary weapons? I just want the ascended armor, which is what was implied in the manifesto. It was also given to me in Guild Wars 1 pretty quickly. I don’t mind grinding for skins or legendaries. I do mind having to grind for BiS gear in a game that marketed itself as not requiring a grind for BiS gear.
Since you don’t do fractals why do you feel you need ascended armor?
Need is irrelevant. Colin explicitly stated that ArenaNet categorizes ascended armor as gear that was never intended to be a grind. Furthermore, why would anyone be happy being at 3% less stats than everyone else? Finally, when did I ever say I don’t do fractals?
It has been 5 days and i made 185g through trading. That is enough gold to buy 8400 silk scraps and I didnt even have to kill more than a couple of dozen monsters to get my initial investment.
I didnt spend more than 90 minutes on that account each day.
Awesome. If I had wanted to spend an hour and a half every night playing a stock market simulator I would have bought one of those. You’re also kind of brushing aside the months of research that you spent developing the skills to manipulate the Guild Wars 2 market. Seriously, what new player is going to log into this game and turn their 5g into 185g by treating it as a stock market simulator? And how would you classify that as normal play? All I’ve been saying is that ArenaNet stated a goal of allowing players to get their BiS gear (up to and including ascended, per Colin’s statement) through the normal course of play. A disciplined regimen of champ trains, world bosses, stock market simulation, dungeon speed clears, WvW binges, and/or gold farming may all qualify as normal in your world, but I strongly doubt that most players live in that world.
As an aside, I crafted my first ascended armor set well after the change, where the price was nearly what it is now. I am working on my second set with the current prices. I’ve never been particularly rich, but occassionally I’ll clear out my bank selling everything I don’t need for a bit of extra cash to buy what I do need. Which is yet another way to get the materials needed.
And you gathered the requisite silk well after the change as well? Without any grinding?
What grind is there for ascendeds… in normal play you earn everything needed being bloodstone dust , emperyal faragments and dragonite ore, with skillpoints you get every 250k XP and some materials you can get from the TP and your dailies you have everything, not instant that’s true but you’ll get it with no real effort. only thing you’ll need to find is obsidian shards…
And all those mats you just mentioned just sit in my bank because I cannot gather silk fast enough to use up all those “rare” items you just mentioned. Even obsidian shards are easy. You just do the Balthazar event one time and spend your karma on them. It’s the silk that’s grindy. Those who say otherwise crafted their gear in the old days when the silk cost was 2/3 what it is now and silk could be bought on the TP for several copper rather than the 2+ silver that it costs now.
So just buy a damask if you have 12 gold to spare and see when some obsidian shards drop in SW and take as much time as you want.
An ascended piece costs about 4 damask, not one. That’s 48 gold to spare, and that happens to be my entire bank account. I know you’re probably swimming in gold, but that’s because you don’t have to hoard all of your silk scraps. The 100 silk that you’re collecting every week is siphoning 2 gold a week from some new player who didn’t get to craft their ascended gear before it became grindy.
No the grind that is percieved is entirely player generated. Anet has put in multiple ways to get the materials needed to craft ascended, and none of which requires me to repeat it any more than I want to.
If you want the material in the quantities that are required, then you do have to repeat. Popping between game modes takes time, and that time prevents you from getting the required silk. Sure, I can pop into activities here and there and come out with 100 scraps by the end of the week, but at that rate I’m not going to put together an ascended set for another year and a half.
Here’s another gem from the manifesto:
It all gets back to our basic design philosophy. Our games aren’t about preparing to have fun, or about grinding for a future fun reward. Our games are designed to be fun from moment to moment.
Sorry, but collecting scraps for a year and a half counts as preparing to have fun in my book.
Ok test. Let me try this again.
Please answer the following questions in no more than a single sentence, and please provide at least 1 link to confirm your answer.After I have recieved your answers, I’ll make my point then let you have the last word on the matter. As I don’t believe that either of us will see each others point of view. You’ll believe what you want, I’ll believe what I want, and at the end of the day, we’ll both go back to playing the game and enjoying ourselves.
Are there enemies in the game that do not provide the regular materials (or the means to aquire said materials) needed to craft Ascended armor of any weight? (excluding World Bosses and world boss “adds”)
How many methods are there for aquiring ascended crafting materials? (i.e. Bloodstone dust, Empyreal fragments, dragonite ore)
Which game mode (i.e. open world PvE, dungeons, WvW, PvP, EotM, etc.) does not provide the materials (ascended or otherwise) needed to craft ascended armor?
Which game mode do I have no choice but to participate in in order to craft ascended armor? (not counting crafting, as it’s kind of a key component?)
Which game mode does not provide any in-game money?
Which activities in the game do not provide any in-game money?
You’re asking the wrong questions. The one to ask is, which game mode provides 7200+ silk scraps in less than a year without any grinding? When I get the answer to that I’ll acknowledge that there is no need to grind for ascended gear.
Am I barred from crafting ascended armor if I choose not to participate in any particular game mode at any time?
If you want to get your ascended armor sometime in the next couple of years, then yes.
Am I required to participate in any particular game mode, do specific events, or kill specific enemies in order to craft ascended?
Am I required (having no choice) to do anything in-game repeatedly without variation in order to craft ascended armor? (i.e. kill specific enemies, do specific events, etc.)
Yes. You’re required to run champ trains, farm silverwastes, or WvW in order to get the champ bags required to generate 7200+ scraps of silk and/or collect the 172 gold required to buy all that silk.
Silk isn’t an ascended mat. And you certainly don’t have to run dungeons for silk.
It’s effectively an ascended mat because you need 300 scraps of it for one bolt of damask. Damask is required for all ascended pieces. I have ascended mats coming out my ears. The limiting factor in my obtaining a full ascended set right now is the silk. Honestly, when most of us say that we’re required to grind for ascended gear, silk acquisition is at the heart of that grind.
You aren’t required to farm for Silk. You aren’t required to craft Ascended gear. You aren’t required to WvW. You aren’t required to PvP.
You are required if you want your gear anytime in the next year or so. What part of that don’t you understand?
That’s just entitlement talking. That’s a self-imposed requirement to justify why you should have it on your time scale… not a relevant argument for Anet making a global change to the game.
Yeah… that’s just entitlement. 10 months playing several hours a night, 100% map completion, crafting maxed, Mawdrey obtained, and still only 3/6 pieces of ascended armor. What am I thinking? Obviously if you want something in the real game you have to work for it. Think about what you’re saying.
You aren’t required to farm for Silk. You aren’t required to craft Ascended gear. You aren’t required to WvW. You aren’t required to PvP.
You are required if you want your gear anytime in the next year or so. What part of that don’t you understand? This is despite the fact that ArenaNet explicitly stated that you won’t be required to grind if you want your gear. What good will ascended gear do me a year from now? Most of my guild mates have quit playing because there’s nothing left for them to do except grind. They call this game Grind Wars. Mike O’Brien promised that there won’t be another tier of armor in HoT, but he didn’t rule out upgrades to existing armor. Why would I want to upgrade my exotic gear?
You know what? I’m not required to do any of that. I’m not required to play this game anymore or buy the expansion either. Ultimately that’s what ArenaNet should be thinking about. This game was marketed as being grind-free, but the current state of affairs suggests otherwise. Maybe my perception would have been different if I had levelled all my crafting when silk was going for a few coppers, but I happened to level it when silk was going for 2+ silver. When a material costs 20 times as much it’s going to take 20 times as long to purchase. That forces players to choose between grinding or spending 20 times as long as the intended amount of time to craft their gear. Either way, that’s completely contrary to the claims made in ArenaNet’s promo materials.
Again, you keep mixing your own definition of what a grind is, and what Anet sees as a grind. You aren’t required to kill the same thing over and over to advance the game and/or have fun.
For Pete’s sake! When did I ever say I had to grind to advance the game??? I said that you’re required to grind to collect enough silk scraps to complete a set of ascended armor in under a year!
I know you can collect some silk without grinding. I know I can stick to low level fractals without grinding. I’m saying that if I want to participate in high end content with my guildies any time in the next six months I’m going to have to grind to collect enough silk.
I know I’ll get some silk without grinding, but it won’t be enough silk. The fact that grinding is so rewarding has inflated prices on the TP beyond the reach of most non-grinders. In most cases, I don’t care because I tend to gather what I need along the way. Silk, however, is not readily available through the course of normal play. Unless, that is, your course of normal play is grinding.
I don’t grind. That’s why I only have 48 gold and no silk scraps. I’m at 3/6 ascended pieces. At current prices I can dump every last cent that I have into silk. That’ll complete one more piece for me and half of another.
To be clear, I have Mawdrey. I have all ascended rings and the amulet. My story line is complete. I have 100% map completion (WvW maps included). I’m not complaining about any of those things. I know I don’t need ascended armor to get any of them.
Here’s my complaint: I do not have silk. That’s what this thread is supposed to be about. It’s not about whether or not I need BiS armor. It’s not about whether the story line can be completed. It’s about the fact that ArenaNet’s manifesto made the claim that BiS armor shouldn’t be a grind. It’s about the fact that Colin reiterated that claim last month. It’s about the fact that the sheer quantity of silk required to craft ascended gear in conjunction with the low availability of silk through normal play has made grinding the only viable means of crafting ascended gear in a timely (< 6 months) manner.
Contrary to what’s been stated, I don’t expect a full set of ascended armor in a day. I don’t even expect it in a week. Getting it within six weeks of hitting level 80 would be reasonable in my mind. Having to gather silk for a year and a half, however, isn’t so reasonable. When the choice is between having to wait that long and having to grind, one of these promises is being broken:
- The best gear/stats: This means to have statistically the best abilities in the game, you shouldn’t need to, by our definition of the word, grind. This goes for leveling and getting top gear (by our definition that’s ascended gear, legendary being an optional extra thing you can do, but don’t need to do.)
GW2 doesn’t fall into the traps of traditional MMORPGs… it doesn’t make you spend hours preparing to have fun rather than just having fun;
The second quote comes from the manifesto
I know that some will contend that grinding is fun. I respectfully disagree.
(edited by Bernie.8674)
You can PvP for silk. You can PvE for silk. You can dungeon for silk. You can WvW for silk. You can TP for silk. You get silk for playing the game the way you want to play it, therefore you are not grinding.
Agreed. I have no problems with the fact that silk is required. I have problems with the quantity of silk that’s required. How quickly are you going to collect the 7200 silk scraps required to make a full set of leather armor in PvP?
ArenaNet’s definition of grind is killing the same monsters over and over repeatedly.
ArenaNet’s definition of grind is having to do one specific task over and over again in order to get something.
I’ll let Colin Johanson clarify this for me:
- Grind: To us, grind means being required to do the same boring activity over and over again. In particular, the biggest reference we’re talking about here in traditional MMO’s is having to kill the same creatures over and over again to farm for levels or gear. In Gw2, you can gain exp and levels from a massive variety of game play, game modes, and content types. Same goes for the ability to acquire the gear to build up your characters. Similarly, ascended mats can be acquired from a wide variety of content types and game modes to allow you choice and options so you don’t need to grind to complete those goals. Our new mastery system continues to this promise as well, which we’ll go into more detail on soon.
Just like I said, “having to kill the same creatures over and over again.”
I said that a player who needs 5 years to acquire ascended gear usually doesnt want it, not that they dont need it.
Again, what does that have to do with anything? Does it change the fact that ArenaNet’s manifesto explicitly stated that we wouldn’t have to grind for BiS gear?
I dont know why you keep bringing your own definition of grind into this instead of arguing within the context Colin provided.
My definition of grind is participating in activities that involve killing the same creatures repeatedly for hours on end. That’s exactly the context that Collin provided. Where am I bringing a different definition into it?
Again, Ascended gear isn’t a grind as per Anet’s standards.
By Anet’s standards, any activity which involves repeatedly killing the same creatures is a grind. By those standards, Silverwastes is a grind. Champion trains are a grind. Speed clearing dungeons is a grind. Collecting champ bags is a grind. Participating in those grinds is the only way to collect silk fast enough to keep up with the time gating. That’s why my claim is valid. Your claim that I can just do whatever I want and find myself with the silk I need is completely ignorant. Maybe back in your day five stacks of silk could be considered “drowning in silk.” Now they aren’t even enough to make one piece of ascended gear.
You keep falling into the same problem. Your definition of a grind is not what Anet considers a grind. Silverwaste farming is a grind, IF you choose to make it one.
Your reasoning makes no sense. ArenaNet’s definition of grind is killing the same monsters over and over repeatedly. Your claim is that since you don’t have to kill anything over and over repeatedly then killing stuff over and over repeatedly isn’t a grind. By your definition, nothing is a grind. That’s like saying that murder isn’t murder because murderers don’t have to kill someone; they choose to. That makes no sense. Silverwastes involves repeatedly killing champions for bags and/or farming for chests in the same zone for hours on end. That’s a grind. Claiming that grinding isn’t grinding because players choose to grind doesn’t make it stop being a grind.
You aren’t required to farm 10 hours of SW and Vinewrath kills to finish the storyline.
I agree, but what does that have to do with anything? I finished my storyline. Was I supposed to be rewarded with 7000 silk scraps at the end? If so I’ll file a bug report because I’m still a long ways from getting the silk I need.
You aren’t required to Bandit chest farm. You aren’t required to train Champs or World Bosses. YOU made the conscious decision to do so. This type of “grind” is player made.
I didn’t make a decision to grind, and that’s why I’ve been playing for 10 months with only half a set of ascended gear. What I’m saying is that players I know who make the decision to grind get their gear in under a month. If we were talking about legendary items or unique weapon skins I would be perfectly fine with that. I’m saying that the disparity is unreasonable and you’re trying to convince me otherwise by pointing out that I have the choice to grind or not. The truth is that if I want to participate in high end content with my guild sometime in the next year I’m going to have to make the choice to grind. This is in conflict with ArenaNet’s purported “no-grind” philosophy. Whether players choose to grind or not grind doesn’t affect whether there’s a grind.
For full disclosure, I do all of the above. I made that choice, and I do see it as a grind, but it’s my own. When I get tired of it, I stop. It has no effect on how I view this game. Anet gave me the option to play this way, and I chose to do so.
So of course you have a vested interest in perpetuating the system. Your preferred playstyle rewards players in a disproportionate manner, so of course you’re happy about it.
So again, is there a grind being forced on you to complete your Personal Story, or Living World arcs? The answer is no. Anet kept their word since the days of the Manifesto.
This thread is about the price of silk. What does personal story or living world have to do with it? ArenaNet’s word in the manifesto was that you wouldn’t be grinding for BiS gear and that you wouldn’t be waiting to have fun. The reality is that you either have to grind for BiS gear or wait to have fun. Either choice is in conflict with ArenaNet’s word.
Casual players that need 5 years to acquire ascended gear usually dont want to have ascended gear in the first place.
You keep saying that, but whether they “need” it or not has nothing to do with this. ArenaNet excplicitly stated that BiS gear should be available to everyone without a grind. Why do you keep bringing that up when it has nothing to do with this thread?
There’s no required timeframe in which to get fully geared. If it takes him 5 years of casual gaming to get enough Silk scraps, that’s ok. We all play at our own pace. But there are ways to speed up the process.
And I think that’s where you deviate from the norm. What game requires five years to gear up? Even WoW, one of the grindiest games there is (by reputation), lets you achieve BiS in six months at any given time. Your expectation that casuals are content to wait five years for their gear is competely out of touch with reality.
Again, Ascended gear isn’t a grind as per Anet’s standards.
By Anet’s standards, any activity which involves repeatedly killing the same creatures is a grind. By those standards, Silverwastes is a grind. Champion trains are a grind. Speed clearing dungeons is a grind. Collecting champ bags is a grind. Participating in those grinds is the only way to collect silk fast enough to keep up with the time gating. That’s why my claim is valid. Your claim that I can just do whatever I want and find myself with the silk I need is completely ignorant. Maybe back in your day five stacks of silk could be considered “drowning in silk.” Now they aren’t even enough to make one piece of ascended gear.
It’s a long term goal that wasn’t meant to be achieved in a day.
When did I ever ask for it to be achieved in a day? I’m going on 10 months here. I’m just saying that maybe we could cut the requirements for a bolt of damask down from 300 silk to the original 200 silk. I never asked for the gating on damask to be removed.
I’m not here to say that you don’t think it’s a grind, only to inform you that your definition is your own. You choose to want items faster, thus in your mind, it becomes a grind for yourself only.
And I’m saying that you’re delusional if you think that any player is going to get the silk they need without grinding. That’s not just in my mind. That’s personal experience.
Want it the old fashioned way? Play the game.
The old fashioned way was that I played through the entire story, completing every mission (including bonus objectives) along the way. When I reached Granite Citadel I dumped a good portion of the mats and gold I had acquired along the way into the best set of armor available in the game (stat-wise), and I was done. The old fashioned way isn’t available any more. I still play the game. I get my daily completionist achievement almost every day. The difference is that I’m going on 10 months with only 3/6 pieces of ascended armor. The weapon I have came out of a weapons chest that I lucked into during guild missions. This is a far cry from the old fashioned way.
Lastly, getting 1,200 Silk scraps is fun. How so? You see, before Ascended gear came out, I was drowning in Silk from just playing the game. If you didn’t sell them, you had a good supply to make Silk Bolts.
Of course it’s fun for you. You collected a completely worthless material and overnight it became a cash cow for you. That’s not so fun for the new players that are essentially funneling all their earnings into your bank account now.