Guild Wars 2

Yes, fun is subjective.

Yes, people play in very different ways for very different reasons.

Yes, there is nothing wrong with enjoying min-maxing or trying to be the best you can at the game.

The problem arose when Anet – which has always taken a very open and accessible approach with GW2 end game – decided that a cornerstone of their new end game model would be developed with a myopic focus on only those characters that enjoy min-maxing (or were lucky enough to play the chosen playstyles that make raids WAY easier).

Other games have shown us how easy it is to include raids in an accessible manner – one that gives multiple way to enjoy the story, the mechanics and the feel of the content. Anet – for what I assume are marketing reasons (wanting to tout “challenge”) took a much less friendly approach.

So, yes – fun is subjective. For THAT VERY REASON , end game content needs to be developed for a range of playstyles. It is imperative to the ongoing health of the game and its community. Anet, probably because of a shift in staff as people have left the company, have COMPLETELY FORGOTTEN THAT . It is time they remembered.

And – to clarify – by developed for a range of playstyles, I dont mean mode A for this player and mode B for an entirely different player. That is segmentation and fractures the community.

It comes with the haves/have nots mentality that something like restrictive raids bring to a game.

Yes, you can ignore raids to a degree. Until they choose to implement things like interesting story (whether it is part of the main story line or not) and unique encounters/mechanics/fun things to do into those raids that aren’t available to the average player. At that point, the content becomes a dividing line – a wall between the unwashed masses and the privileged few that get to have the experience.

This was never clearer than with the decision to tell the Saul D’alessio story in the most recent raid wing – content that many players would enjoy experiencing (eg, actually playing through) – especially those who played GW1.

I know I will get beat on for daring to impugn the holy nature of raids as they exist in GW2 (it’s just the nature of the forums), but there is a reason many players are feeling more and more disconnected from the game – and I believe the biggest culprit is the way they chose to implement raids.

Sly.9518:

Adding Tiered difficulties waters down the raisin experience since lower tiered Raids would be easier hence making Raids not the most challenging content, and changing the target audience, you can’t dispute those facts.

Adding tiers will take away the speed at content releases Raiders have, or it will take developer resources away from other areas since balance will have to be made around multiple tiers. (Challenge notes don’t change the balance they only added mechanics completely different compared to what you state with removing and changing mechanics)

Again Target audience were hardcore players Anet exceeded their expected audience goals for the players that actually wanted the content, you just want the content hijacked for players other than the target audience which will delay Raid releases.

Just because there are multiple tiers doesn’t mean the raisin (? – just joking, I know what you meant) experience isnt still the hardest content in the game. If raids didnt exist, this honor would go to T4 fractals – despite the existence of T1s.

And, yes, the original published goal of raids did not take what we are discussing into account. But, as player needs adapt with the game’s identity and offerings, so must the way Anet needs to develop content.

And again, I am not convinced this would take any more effort than the challenge motes from the last wing needed.

Baseleader.4128:

I don’t understand why it’s such a big problem that the game mode (supposed to be the hardest one in the game) requires a certain commitment and adaptation of a player. You can play power scrapper everywhere in the game, then why can’t we expect someone to play condi engi for raids. It requires a small bit of commitment, because it needs to be a challenge.

Every game does this, so i dont know why it has to be a problem in gw2, locking things behind difficulty/effort/ a certain playstyle is what defines gaming in many ways. If you want to win the Champions League in FIFA, you probably should take some defenders and not 10 attackers. If you want to win a round of Battlefield, you should probably bring some medics. If you want to win a Total War campaign, better create some balanced armies and mind your economy.

Even in this game, PvP and WvW require people to adapt their style and play different classes/builds if they want to have good chances of being succesful. You probably want an ele in your 5-man PvP team, maybe an engi, mes, thief,…. If you don’t have an ele, you should probably reroll.

Being forced to play in a way, and adapt and change to be able to beat a game is a core principle of gaming.

And you are right in everything you say here. Im not advocating the removal of any of this. The highest level of raiding should require adaptation and min/maxing (even moreso than it currently does, imo).

I still say that multiple levels would make it easier for the developers to accomplish this – freeing them up from any concerns of accessibility, while – for many – addressing the issue of accessibility and profession diversity in raiding at the same time.

This has never been a treatise on the removal of challenging content – or even for watering it down in any way. Raids should be the hardest content in the game – but that doesn’t mean they cannot be adapted to offer secondary experiences for those looking for such a thing.

There is a need (yes I said it – but it’s still opinion – PLEASE dont make me have to explain word definitions again) for greater accessibility in the game mode. I know everyone doesn’t see it (we are all directed by our own in game experiences and environments), but it is there.

Sly.9518:

Having to balance your tiered modes will cause increased time more so than any challenge notes that add extra mechanics.

Im not convinced that is true. Most likely, in most cases, the best way to develop a more accessible mode would be to remove some of the more punishing mechanics from fights – basically the inverse of what they do with challenge motes (and probably a simpler process). I doubt that would take any more effort than adding in new mechanics (which have to be balanced as well) as they do with challenge motes.

If anything, I think it would take slightly few resources. Regardless, I doubt the difference either way would amount to anything significant.

(again and as always, solely my opinion)

Sly.9518:

It has been proven that you don’t need the Meta Builds or classes in the slightest to complete Raids, Multiple times. Players can play their power scrapper or whatever they want and they can complete the Raids.

Every Accessibility issue is solely on the individual player not on the gamemode.

Again you are trying to change the Targt audience by commandeering the content, Raiders were kind enough to ask for their own separate content, not take someone else’s and turn it into something it wasn’t designed or intended to be.

Common sense shows this.

Raids were meant to be the most challenging content, making an easier version makes Raids not the most challenging content….

And no matter what adding in tiered versions slows down Raid development time taking away from Raiders content speed.

Again, it is not about absolutes. Can every profession beat every boss? Definitely. It’s been proven.

But the experience of playing some professions is much less frustrating than others. MUCH MUCH less frustrating – yes, partly because of player biases, but biases based on the extreme mathematical differences between those builds and professions.

And that disparity is the issue. Players shouldnt be punished (in terms of accessibility, at least) for enjoying one playstyle over another.

As to developer resources, I still contend that argument was invalidated by the use of challenge motes on every boss in the last wing. Instead of using challenge motes (which were almost universally disliked by hard core raiders), use story motes instead – designed to provide the tiered experience without the need for multiple instances. It solves the accessibility issue without detracting from the hardcore experience in any way whatsoever.

Sly.9518:

Adding easier tiers to Raids makes Raids not the most challenging content, and there are no accessibility issues that aren’t imposed by the individual player themselves, it has been proven Raids can be completed using a multitude of different compositions and so on so actual difficulty isn’t an issue.

You are just wanting to change Raids from their intended concept and intended audience.

Let’s put this into perspective, Raiders asked for their own Niche content, they did not ask for another target audiences content be commandeered and changed to fit their wants, and needs. What you want is to take content not meant to be or designed to be easy and make it that way because of feelings, there is no other basis behind it.

Again there are no Syestem or Game imposed Accessibility issues with Raids, all issues are on the individual player.

And now players that didn’t want Raids to begin with are now trying to have Raids changed at the fundamental level for selfish reasons.

It isnt about easy versus hard.

As I stated a few posts back, the disparity between (for instance) a power scrapper and a power ele or condi ranger is pretty extreme, even in the same level gear with the best possible skills and traits equipped. That is mathematically evident – and the same can be said to be true of many different professions/builds/playstyles.

The result is that a player who enjoys playing something like a chronotank (which I play in raids every week, btw) will have a less frustrating and more accessible experience than someone playing pretty much any kind of revenant (as just one example).

Yes, there is a player imposed element to it, but the math is there to show that there are design justifications for that exclusionary imposition – and that is where the issue begins.

Adding a lower tier of difficulty would not mean changing the higher one (common sense). It would still be the most difficult content in the game (more common sense). All it would do is give those people who enjoy playing the less desired builds/professions/playstyles the ability to enjoy the content/story (what there is of it)/etc without the current frustration.

It isn’t about being selfish (unless you’re talking about people not wanting those player enjoying professions like the revenant or scrapper to have that experience because it would magically hurt the top tier) or wanting to take anything away from the “desired audience” you reference.

It is about normalizing the experience and improving accessibility – something desperately needed (again IMO – ugh) right now.

Sly.9518:

The main issue with all of your proposals are you want to change the fundamental concepts and target audience of Raids. Raids were intended to be the hardest content this game has to offer for organized groups, your ideas would completely undermine that and most players that want the easier modes want the exact same rewards as the current version which would make the current Raids meaningless.

I think you will find pretty much everyone agrees that raids should always provide that challenge.

I know I still want raids to be the hardest content in the game – and any solution would have to retain the extreme challenge. The top tier would have to remain difficult. And, no, adding lower difficulties would not invalidate that experience.

In fact, I honestly believe that a tiered model would allow them to make that experience even more difficult – even more epic. With no concern for accessibility AT ALL (because it would be addressed by the lower tier), they would be free to go as extreme as possible with a top tier difficulty. And, in that same vein, there would be no storyline related concerns – allowing them to go as epic as they want inside the raid instannce.

And I think you will find that most players posting all agree that any lower tiers would need a lower reward. That is just common sense – and something I definitely support. Lower difficulty means lower reward.

Accessibility is the single biggest issue with raids, imo. It needs (imo – hate having to keep typing that) to be addressed in some way. Playing a power scrapper or revenant (or other sub par build/playstyle) shouldnt be as frustrating as it is. There should be a way for players enjoying those builds to enjoy the content comparable (in experience, not reward) to those who enjoy power tempests or condi rangers or chronotanks.

Again, if the answer isnt tiers, I would love to know what it is.

Vinceman.4572:

My opinion is we don’t need tiered raiding modes.

And I respect that opinion – and how you have chosen to defend it earlier in this thread – even though I obviously disagree with it.

I know that tiers bring a certain stigma from their use in other games. I played many of those games and saw the good and bad that this kind of model brings. I accept that they are not a perfect solution.

However, if not through the use of tiers, how do we address the accessibility issue? How do we normalize the experience between players who enjoy and are proficient on a condition ranger or power tempest with players who enjoy and are proficient on a power scrapper or revenant? And how do we better ensure that future balance patches don’t invalidate enjoyable playstyles in raids?

The tiered model is the solution I think best addresses this issue, but maybe there is a better one out there.

What would you suggest? Should players just accept that, in order to raid without frustration, they need to play something they may not enjoy? I really don’t like the idea of that.

Or do you see it as a non issue without the need for a solution?

Is it just that people hate the idea of tiered difficulty and – even if the system is broken (which I believe it is) – feel implementation of this kind of model would somehow corrupt the game?

I ask these questions because I think the conversation is worth having – and I believe there are still people who can have that conversation civilly. I would actually welcome it.

Fatalyz.7168:

Blaeys.3102:

The point is, the current raid environment is not limiting because of the difficulty of the fights (they really aren’t that hard, tbh). It is limiting because of the disparity and huge differences between the different builds/professions/playstyles – and that is just BAD design.

There is difference between builds and playstyles, but having a disparity is not a reason to provide easier access to raids, especially if it was never intended. Also, “BAD design” is your opinion, and it doesn’t lend any weight to your argument.

Blaeys.3102:

The only way you are going to provide a comparable level of accessibility for (using the current game dynamic as an example) power based scrapper or revenant when compared to, say, a tempest, is to provide a tiered raid model. It may not be the perfect solution – it may not have been what the developers envisioned for raids – but it is very much needed at this point.

How is tiered modes needed at this point and why should they increase the accessibility? You haven’t given anything to support that it is needed, other than that people want it. Is the game going to die? Is mass quantities of people going to leave the game, if they can’t play raids? My guess is going to be “No” to both of those questions. And if the answer is “No”, how can you profess that there is a “need”?

Of course it was my opinion. Get it into your head that the point of the forums is for us all (you, me – all of us) to express opinions. Stop attacking the poster and trying to make it sound nefarious when someone is simply expressing an opinion – and start discussing the topic itself. This constant diversionary tactic of attacking the person rather than trying to have a civil discussion is getting old and adds absolutely nothing to the conversation.

Of course the game isnt going to die and it won’t cause people to mass exodus from the game. Trying to make it sound like I said that is another typical diversionary tactic -
trying to make it seem the discussion is between two extreme sides (making it easier to provide direct counterpoints).

The reality is, this isnt a black and white topic with extreme sides, even though some people have some pretty extremist attitudes about it.

My goal is greater interest in raids – more accessibility and a deeper experience that adds to how people enjoy the game – without compromising the challenge top end raids provide.

I see an issue with profession/build/playstyle variety as it pertains to raids. I also see what I believe to be a solution for that issue.

Telling me that is just my opinion is not a valid counterargument. It’s an evasion of the argument, plain and simple. Of course it is just my opinion – just as your opinion is just your opinion. (for the umpteenth time, were here to discuss our opinions).

Now – PLEASE – let’s get back to the actual conversation and not spend pages debating the definition of “opinion” or “want vs need” – or how bad a person I apparently am.

By all means, the hardcore experience should remain for those wanting to form ideal groups with ideal builds/comps/etc.

No one is asking for that to be removed.

And, yes, the initial intent of raids was that they not be for everyone. Again, no one is debating that.

As for the comparison to early dungeons, the examples only hold true if you limit the definition of successful dungeon runs to include speed runs. I ran dungeons pretty much every day (successfully) for a very long time with guildmates playing everything from bearbow rangers to mantra mesmers to mace-shield warriors – and we never once quit a dungeon early for any reason other than real life sticking its silly head into our game (kids, work, etc). The only fight we ever found to require any kind of specialization was Simin in Arah (because of the burst damage requirement), but even then, we usually found a way to do it. Dungeons were an example of well designed content in which pretty much every build was viable.

The point is, the current raid environment is not limiting because of the difficulty of the fights (they really aren’t that hard, tbh). It is limiting because of the disparity and huge differences between the different builds/professions/playstyles – and that is just BAD design.

So, with that in mind, how is it fixed? Balance all professions/builds/playstyles? In a perfect world, sure – if they could do that without compromising the flavor and feel of those professions, that would be ideal.

But it will never happen – especially as we add nine more elite specializations with the upcoming expansion.

The only way you are going to provide a comparable level of accessibility for (using the current game dynamic as an example) power based scrapper or revenant when compared to, say, a tempest, is to provide a tiered raid model. It may not be the perfect solution – it may not have been what the developers envisioned for raids – but it is very much needed at this point.

Everyone tries to make this a easy versus hard issue, but that is not really the big concern here.

Balance in raids is a pipe dream – and there will always be classes/builds/playstyles that simply do not play well there. Currently, direct damage elementalists and tank chronomancers can enjoy the content as designed, while a direct damage scrapper or most revenants will find it frustrating and (yes – definitely) less accessible.

IMO, there is no group formation tool that is going to fix that. And the only way (imo) they achieve actual balance is by watering down the classes so much that they all play basically the same. And, if they work to balance the actual content for more professions, they water down the challenge for those playing those high performing builds.

So, yes – other people may be creating groups and dropping bosses left and right – but it still doesn’t solve the disparity issue between builds/professions/playstyles.

That leaves multiple modes – something they clearly proved is possible with the use of challenge motes in the last wing. It gives accessibility to more professions and playstyles without compromising the actual challenging levels of gameplay.

I suspect that, if such an article existed, it was pure conjecture/rumor.

Masteries fill this role – and I would much rather see them expand upon and improve that system rather than add any kind of power or level based progression to the game in any way.

It would be the ultimate deviation from what GW2 is now and was at launch – and would probably be enough to push a lot of people away from the game.

Adry.7512:

My friend the game isn’t without flaws. It has a lot of room for improvement, but it’s a great company with a caring staff who really care about the game. There isn’t much of that. If you think about it, most of guild wars 2 expansion features are due to players suggestions and ideas along with the developers ideas. What is the game lacking?? PVP, which I imagine will be fixed in xpac 2, and wvw which they said they will fix….soon. Additionally, this game lacks a lot of quality of life and minor details, that can be added in the future. The point is to continue supporting until the company stop supporting us. That’s how it works, they care about the game? They’re passionate? Okay, then support inspire of the facts. Keep encouraging change over and over year after year, INSPITE OF. Continue it until Anet stops caring, stops supporting us, stops being fair.

I agree with a lot of what you are saying here. I’m just explaining why I have a hard time praising the game in its current state.

There are still a lot of GREAT features to the game – better than any other MMO on the market, imo. And I definitely see how much ArenaNet cares about the game. I still believe they are a very good development company with a lot of talent. And I still love Guild Wars 2.

But, the way they have chosen to use (and not use) resources in the past 2 years has me – and, I think, many others – slightly concerned. So, while I still love the game, I’m not going to actively praise them for doing things that, imo, push the game away from what made it so great in the past. They need to re-earn some trust first (again, just opinion).

Historically, I have been extremely supportive of GW2. I started a guild here based around fellow refugees from my WoW guild – and I pushed hard to get them to follow me here. I even kept my WoW subscription alive for a year just so I could continue to encourage additional friends to make the leap to this game. I’ve been active across most social media and encouraged a lot of friends to come to GW2 in the past few years.

Even now, my guild remains very active – with more than 250 unique members logging on in the past two weeks (all from a guild that started with 9 members back at launch).

However, I rarely talk about the wonder of GW2 any more. Things have changed. Specifically, two trends have changed my perspective on the game and severely muted my enthusiasm and desire to proselytize for it today (neither of which will come as any surprise to people that know me).

The first was the uninspired and unfriendly way they chose to implement raiding into end game. The lack of such blatant disregard for other players was a core reason so many of my friends came to GW2 in the first place.

The second is the seeming abandonment of support for guild and community focused activities. The last new guild mission was four years ago. The new maps seem to be tailored for a bunch of random single players rather than for groups of friends. And, while there have been some new decorations for guild halls, many features they once touted (larger instanced PvP area for example) seem to be just as abandoned as missions.

So, while I still enjoy playing (primarily because of my many friends here), I find it very hard to recommend the game to anyone the way I did in years past. The lack of support for in game communities (most notably guilds) combined with the focusing of resources on exclusionary cookie cutter raid content have simply muted my excitement for the game’s future.

As always, though, this is just me. I am sure there are many who feel very differently.

Given that the idea is for elite specs to change fundamental profession mechanics – at least a little – it would be problematic to design for two at the same time without watering them down.

Behellagh.1468:

The issue with guild missions is that they have become quite stale. Even treks with their dozens of locations are “been there/seen that/got the t-shirt”. Easy bounty is ALWAYS Trillia, Brekkabek or Poobadoo. Did the RNG get stuck? I thought easy meant one bounty and a lot of time.

A refresh would be nice. A reason to get together to do them shouldn’t just be personal reward.

Easy bounties pull from a set group of potential targets – I think to make it easier for 4-5 player groups (in terms of both finding and killing).

Guild missions have definitely grown stale (again – almost 4 years of the EXACT SAME ONES will do that). Add to that the fact that rushes (races) have been bugged for more than six months now.

I think that is part of why it is so hard to have this conversation on the forums. Many players – even those still doing guild missions – have more or less given up on any kind of meaningful response on this issue at this point.

Guild missions have so much potential. Guild puzzles held on the old dungeon maps (which is likely possible given how CM was used in the story a few months ago). Guild bounties on the HOT and new LS maps (hunting down a rogue wyvern or white mantle), guild challenges in the towns at Lake Doric (or even in part of Dragon Stand), races (rushes) using gliding skills in Bloodstone Fen (or the old maps, for that matter). And much much more. There are some really interesting possibilities.

It actually hurts a little to think of what they could have done here and haven’t.

But again, the point of this thread is much simpler than that. I just want to know if Anet even remembers missions at this point – are they something we can look forward to, or are they just something they have abandoned.

(after almost 4 years, I think that is a VERY fair question to ask)

They really have backed themselves into a corner here. The more effort they put into rewards for raids – which, by their own admission, are meant to be exclusionary – the more they create a have/have not dynamic in the game.

Unique skins, minis and titles – those are the ways players should be able to virtually celebrate/brag about the content they enjoy in game. Anything beyond that risks snowballing into a significant split in the game community.

They need to stay away from anything functional – that offers gameplay advantages of any kind. Legendary armor exclusive to a single game mode (raids or otherwise) was a mistake from the beginning.

Devata.6589:

I agree, when we got the missions they said they created in a way that they could easily extend on it, so far for that. We got one more addition and then they seem to forget all about it. Even with HoT at the very least I expected to have some of the old mission being put in the new maps. But none of that.

And not only should they make more of the existing missions, they should add new type of missions.

I will not say Guilds did get no love, with HoT they got the Guild Halls what was great, but if it comes to activities to do with the guild things are not so good. It looks like Anet is more focused on getting random people playing in open maps.
Back in the day you would do guild-missions or for a PvX guild go into WvW as a guild-activity (we did both a lot). Mega-Servers basically killed WvW as guild-activity for PvX guilds.
With the release of HoT capturing the Guild Hall finally was a new real activity do to with the guild. Our guild did it twice (once for every guild hall). Building the hall was not really an activity you did together, but you would still follow the progress together, and came together when the building where constructed. But once all buildings where done that was also gone.

Guilds did get the ability to start world-bosses and it is fun to do that a few times, but it was already old content and while you can start it as guild, it is not so much a guild-event (was not closed off and does not fit any size guild). Not to mention that doing it from the world-spawn was usually easier.

Considering I was mostly active with these sort of things (as Guild Leader) once there was less of this to do, and people got less interested in Guild Missions there was also less incentive for me to be active.

Guilds are now mostly used to organize raids. However, if it comes to activities, things to do together with the guild, guilds are in a bad state now.

But for the sake of all leader and officers out there (and the members obviously), yeah add more activities for guilds. This open world group content did not work out so move back to activities for guilds if you want people to play together.

One thing I expected them to do post HOT was implement guild missions inside the guild hall . We had the well designed guild hall capture event that showed us the potential that exists there.

At this point, though, I am just looking for a scrap from the table – just a nod yes or no that they are still a part of the game moving forward in any way whatsoever. Like many, my guild keeps me logging into the game on days I probably wouldn’t otherwise. I just want to know how important guilds – and the things they can potentially do together – are in future development plans.

After almost 4 years, I think that is fair request to make.

Ardid.7203:

IMO it is possible the term “Deux ex Machina” is not the more precisely, canonically correct. What’s the word we should use to describe that ill staged, sudden, annoying Lazarus Mystery/Balthazar Reveal?

If a literary term/trope needs to be applied, it would be called a plot twist – simple as that.

Some like it. Others do not. That is the nature of any artistic endeavor.

My first advice would be to not let the fact that the items you want to collect are primarily on the gem store stop you. Keep in mind that, as long as you aren’t in a huge rush, you can buy pretty much anything there by trading gold for gems. According to GW2Spidy, 30 gold will get you about 100 gems right now, meaning that most skins (gliders, toys, etc) will cost between 120 and 200 gold each. Find a fun way to make gold (which can range from simply doing meta events in a map like Silverwastes to hunting down rare champs and creatures that drop things like t6 blood, alongside dailies/activities) – and you just found a way to play for the things you list in your OP. May not be the fastest way to get them, but it is a goal you can set for yourself.

Second, look for a fun casual guild that enjoys open world content. There are still guilds out there that enjoy things like missions, boss trains, map meta events, etc. A good guild makes the living story episodes a lot more fun as well.

Most importantly, don’t rush the game. Enjoy what you enjoy and dont be afraid to log off and do something else when you want to.

I understand the whole “dont talk too much about what were doing” concept, but I think, after almost four years (2 weeks from today will mark 4 years since the last new guild mission was added), it isn’t irrational to expect them to at least let us know if they still see missions as a part of the game at all anymore.

I would also recommend keeping an eye on Canach as a potential future ally. I don’t think they are done with him by a long shot.

TexZero.7910:

Perspective differences. Our initial goal was indeed to halt or before the knowledge of taimi have primordous and jormag destroy each other. To that end a god did indeed intervene with a resolution to that conflict. It did however open up a new can of worms, which is often seen when a deus ex machina is presented. The best analogy one can make here is they did the whole shounen villian of the day, only the original big bads just weren’t bad enough so we introduced your sensei who was actually evil all along, also a god. (Sounds familiar if you watched DBZ or Sailor Moon as a kid)

We definitely would have different perspectives. I was well past childhood by the time DBZ or Sailor Moon would have aired.

I’m not saying the current story is perfect or that everyone has to like it (of course they don’t) – just that the concept of Deus Ex Machina in its literary meaning (versus its literal one) doesn’t apply here. The god didnt intervene with a solution – he came up with a way to to destroy the world – which we then stopped. The side effect was a TEMPORARY delay to the dragon threat.

And its worth mentioning that (even though again it wasnt used here) even something like the literary device Deus Ex Machina can still be used to effect in storytelling provided it is still done in a fun and creative way. It isn’t necessarily a bad thing (even though most authors use it in bad ways). A good story is a good story because it is entertaining.

TexZero.7910:

So how much longer are you willing to delay content in GW2 just so you can have your story when it’s readily available to you online as is ?

Once again, I think that the idea of motes invalidates the delay argument. I really do not see how developing story motes would be any more time or resource intensive than was put into the challenge motes used in BoTP.

The same concept invalidates the idea that they would somehow compromise the development of the harder mode as well. Put true effort into making a truly challenging raid experience – and only then look at the mechanical and mathematical considerations needed for a story mote (much they way they likely did with the challenge motes).

I think its time that people (especially the developers) remembered that clipping is an issue that includes a lot more than just Legendary Armor.

Way too much energy and conversation is being wasted on fixing this “problem” for a small subset of the playerbase. If they are going to go to such great lengths, they should put it toward coming up with a more systemic fix.

Otherwise, it’s time to just move on to other issues.

Cyninja.2954:

True, yet you are already quantifying your respons which shows that you are well aware that the solution of adding multiple difficulties has not gone over well in other MMOs.

Which in turn means the effort to implement it in a proper way is more than just some easy number changes here and there running against the argument it can be done easily.

My guess is they will stick to having challenge motes and just keep the fights tuned down slightly. How well this works out and how the addition of more raid wings affects longevity only time will tell. I’m just happy the entire disscussion has died down a bit with some people deciding that they dislike the legendary armor look (and thus not caring), and others giving raids a try. In both cases it’s less people theorycrafting in circles on the forum.

The conversation has slowed because there is currently no new raid – and legendary armor has turned into a bit of a logistical and perception nightmare for them – but I do feel confident the issue of accessibility to the content and story remains as big an issue for people as ever.

I qualified my statement because some people like to point at multiple modes in other games as a bad thing – something that corrupted them, when I believe it is primarily because they feel raids should be the sole domain of the hardcore player. An undeniable fact is that many games continue to use the model because it does appeal to wide portions of their playerbase.

It is also worth noting that even before multiple modes were implemented, pretty much all of these games had a built in means to provide greater access to the content that GW2 will never have – specifically level and gear treadmills. Those treadmills allowed developers to balance raids for the extreme hardcore player at first, with the understanding they would become more and more accessible as time went on – to the point where pretty much every player would be able to experience them.

So it was always a consideration in the design of raids in those games.

I think most agree that these treadmills do not – and NEVER SHOULD – exist in GW2. That means that gradually increasing accessibility doesn’t exist here in any real form. As a result, raids are being designed with a broader swath of players in mind from day one. That means two things – one, they will always be watered down more than they should be for hardcore players and two, they will always feel inaccessible to less serious players.

The result of that is what we have now – raids that arent really challenging at all for one group but still feel overly inaccessible to those whose playstyles dont fit a specific mold. In trying to force fit a single difficulty into them, they will end up with something less than it should be.

Multiple modes – especially if implemented through a story mote of some kind – fix many of these issues in my opinion (not saying it is perfect solution – just the best one we probably have).

TexZero.7910:

1) A god stopping the advancement of Primordus isnt divine intervention ? How about said god absorbing a bloodstone magic barrage that would have annihilated most of tyria (according to episode 1) ?

2) No where in the trope of Deus Ex Machina is it required for the ending to be remotely happy. Deus Ex Machina can quite literally be used for any purposes that change a per-ordained plot-point or story destination. In this case instead of having the two dragons energies nullify each other we have said god now intervening and absorbing the energy.

The conflict here wasnt to stop Primordus, but rather to stop Balthazar. No divine power aided us in completing that task – ergo, this does not fall under the Deus Ex Machina trope.

You are right that the story doesn’t have to have a happy ending for the term to apply, but again, the trope doesnt apply here. For one, again, the antagonist here was Balthazar – second, even two dragons do not represent an unassailable obstacle (we’ve defeated dragons before) – and third, the dragons werent defeated – their threat was simply delayed (probably very slightly).

As to whether or not this chapter is just bad writing or not, that is an entirely different topic. Personally, I enjoyed it. The plot felt a little rushed, but it made sense and added tension to the game. On top of that, there was some well woven humor in the dialogue – Taimi’s communications when we reveal our “ghost friends” and Phlunt’s wordplay (which required having NPC text turned on to catch) particularly.

I think people want to throw the Deus Ex Machina label on this because they are confused by the literal god + machine element in the story. Again, this was not Deus Ex Machina in a literary sense.

TexZero.7910:

That’s your claim that you feel an easy mode wouldn’t diminish raid content. Personally i don’t buy it. I’ve seen first hand what can happen when you have to design and test variable levels of content. Ultimately it drags down the quality and potential complexity. Whether or not Anet is able to find a decent solution or not is also up in the air.

I disagree with your logic here. First, I have also seen what other games have done first hand and argue that, done correctly, the system works. However, we can argue this one until the end of time – it is extremely subjective with anecdotal evidence to support both sides of an argument.

Second, and more telling, is that ArenaNet has already done this – with the challenge motes in BotP. The mechanic to implement a story or more accessible mode is already in the game – a mechanic that is very non-intrusive and likely easy to implement.

I want hard complex fights as much as anyone, but it isnt multiple modes that stop that from happening. In my opinion, a much bigger barrier is how they have to target raids. As long as they choose to stick to a single mode, they will continually need to compromise – even if just a little – in the name of “getting new people into raids” – especially as carrot factor of legendary armor ages and diminishes. It’s the nature of the game.

Multiple modes – with a true accessible story mode – remove that concern from the development table. It frees them up to make the more complex fights, not the other way around.

I just want a game where the power and functionality of your gear is equalized for every player who plays consistently for any period of time at end game. I have no problem with different cosmetic rewards associated with different game modes.

Legendary armor sits right on the line of what is acceptable for me – and I honestly don’t know 100% how I feel about it. Functionality wise, it seems most beneficial to people who play a wide range of game modes, most notably fractals, raids and WvW, between which stat needs change significantly.

Given that this is probably the only set of legendary armor we will ever see (or at least the only one for several years to come),maybe the smarter path would have been to insist that players prove themselves at the top of their game across all game modes rather than limit it to raids – and definitely across raids and WvW.

And another part of me thinks that the functionality of legendary armor is just a little too good – that it runs counter to the cosmetic focused reward system that makes the game as good as it is. I worry that, by limiting it to a single game mode, it somehow elevates that game mode as more important than any other – something that GW2 has always managed to avoid (partly because legendary weapons did require mastery of the game across modes – at least to a small degree).

Again, I dont see this as a huge issue, but I do think Anet could have implemented legendary armor in a smarter and more gamewide approach.

I’ve seen this a few times and I have to disagree.

While there was a god in a machine in the story – meaning there was a literal deus ex machina there – the writers DID NOT use the term in its literary sense (the one we thing of when providing criticisms of movie/books/etc). I think that has confused some people.

In a literary sense, Deus Ex Machina refers to divine intervention to the benefit of the protagonist (in this case, us). A god literally reaches down out of the heavens to save us or bring the story to a happy ending just as things seemed absolutely impossible. In Ancient Greek plays, actors portraying gods would hang from wires above the stage (the wires being the “machine”) – and, just as the story resolution seemed impossible, they would proclaim their intervention and save the heroes. It was used – at least in part – to show both the divine benevolence and ultimate power the gods possessed. That is where the term comes from. In modern usage, it refers to any situation where a being with ultimate power intervened in a similar way to resolve a story line that, otherwise, would have been impossible to resolve.

And that isn’t what happened here. We were fighting against the god – and through force of will and innovation – came out the victor (for now).

Yes, the machine put the dragons to sleep (for a short time, most likely), but that was a secondary point – and the dragons definitely didn’t present an unassailable challenge for us (we’ve beaten two already) – and the god in question definitely wasn’t intervening on our behalf.

And I think the story was well formed and interesting, which is really the important part.

So, in the literary sense of the term, this was not deus ex machina, despite one being present in a literal sense as part of the story (hope that makes sense).

Fatalyz.7168:

Blaeys.3102:

No one is talking about dumbing down anything. People are proposing the creation of an alternative way to experience the content – one that not only wouldn’t affect the harder mode, but would give the developers free licence to make the actual challenging raids even more challenging.

And, again, I think that could be accomplished with little impact on developmental resources by transitioning from challenge to story motes (and then making the main experience the considerably harder one).

And they could have used those challenge mote resources, to provide better polished encounters. Better polished encounters is better for the game mode as a singular challenge level.

Except, as long as they have to be worried about balancing encounters to account for a greater range of skill levels in a single mode (which was obviously their intent in wing 4), the same issue exists as in your example.

Using those resources on story motes (or a straight up story mode) gives them greater leeway in providing challenging content throughout a raid – meaning greater purity of purpose and a true challenging and polished raiding experience for those wanting it. Imo, they cannot provide a proper raid with the model they have now – and their answer in wing 4 (challenge motes) didn’t really work.

Why not use those resources on something people are actually asking for?

They haven’t locked you out of the game. You simply have to be a little patient regarding in game transactions with other players.

Again that is a small price to pay for long term peace of mind.

No one is talking about dumbing down anything. People are proposing the creation of an alternative way to experience the content – one that not only wouldn’t affect the harder mode, but would give the developers free licence to make the actual challenging raids even more challenging.

And, again, I think that could be accomplished with little impact on developmental resources by transitioning from challenge to story motes (and then making the main experience the considerably harder one).

The two most popular events in my guild’s history (based on attendance) have been a mission night and the night we captured our guild hall.

It really feels like there is almost no ongoing support for organized guild activities anymore, whether it be missions, world vs world or otherwise. And while guilds can create their own events in open world (which my guild does ever Sunday night), more is needed to keep these core game communities engaged and entertained.

After all, my guess is that social interaction with friends and guildees is probably the single biggest thing keeping a lot of players in GW2.

Upirlupirina.6182:

Just a flesh wound.3589:

It’s not because of bots. It’s because of accounts bought using bank and credit card fraud. You can thank them for the restrictions.

Well they sure didnt wait 72 hours to take my money. And when I added my phone for the security that should have been a signal

The problem is that anyone can add a mobile authenticator as security – and in fact, if someone hacks your account, it is usually the first thing they do.

It sucks, to be sure, but it is a small price to pay to cut back – even if just a little – on stolen accounts.

I agree I could have worded the OP a little softer and that “need” denotes absolutes when that is obviously not the case – but as others have said, my meaning was pretty clear.

Truth is, this is a hot button for me (and some others I know). The last guild missions added to the game were almost 4 years ago. Just before HOT, I asked if new PVE guild missions would be included in the expansion and this is the response they gave -

https://youtu.be/W1WBYEfJVb4?t=337

Since then, I and many others have broached the topic again. I have asked the question directly during every AMA on Reddit and was part of a very popular thread (in terms of both replies and upvotes) there with other players.

But despite that, there has only been one mention of guild missions by Anet in the past 2 years – a brief mention on reddit about how they would like to do more (about 8 months ago, I believe).

The topic has fallen off the radar – and Anet has either let them slip through the cracks because there is no “team” associated with them (which is my guess) or is deliberately avoiding the topic because they have stretched their resources so thin and missions, unfortunately, didnt make the cut between what is important and what isn’t.

After all of the posts and discussions – with almost no feedback or mention from Anet – I grew a little frustrated, which came through in the the language of my original post here.

I just really want to know if missions are still a part of this game. I know a lot of people (most of my guild among them) who love the concept but are growing bored with the ones we have been doing almost every week (and we’ve only missed 2 weeks since they first came out) for more than four years now.

I don’t think that is an unfair request.

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

Why not start a new thread and just ask the question: what’s going on with guilds, ANet? Are we going to see new g-mish? What sort of g-mish would others like to see? Extend the current ones? New types?

You’ve confused “dead” and “unsupported” with “stale.” We don’t need new missions; we want them. We don’t need to hear from them. You do your own cause a disservice by “demanding” ANet do something — ANet isn’t our servant; they are a business and have all sorts of concerns besides guilds.

And frankly, I don’t really care if ANet says anything at all — they used to talk about fractals a lot and it wasn’t until recently we saw what they could deliver. I love the new fractals and I love the direction of the team. That doesn’t mean I forget that it was a long time between Thaumanova and Chaos (never mind the long-requested revamps to swamp, among other fractals). In other words: better that ANet says nothing until they are ready to deliver something.

Im not demanding anything. Just asking the question and pointing out why it is important to some of us.

In two weeks, it will have been four years since the last new guild mission was added to the game.

I know at this point, I should probably just accept that they are dead content as far as the developers are concerned, but I still really want to hold out hope for them. Organizing, leading and participating in guild missions have been, by a wide margin, the most enjoyable part of the GW2 experience for me in the past 4 years. Every Monday night, dozens of my fellow guildees and I still get together and do every PVE mission on the list.

But it isnt because we necessarily enjoy the actual content anymore. Most of us could do Langmar Estate blindfolded – and we have done even the hardest challenges (Save our Supplies, Crab Toss) with as few as 7 people. They grew stale 2+ years ago. It is only the social aspects (and potential guild-related rewards/decorations/etc) that keep us doing them.

We either need new missions – or we need some idea of how guilds and guild activities fit into the future plans for the game.

So (and I know people will cite the tired old excuse that Anet doesnt answer these kinds of questions) – Anet needs to let us know – are missions still supported content and, if so, how do they fit into the game development. Are they an expansion only feature? Are they something developers are expected to just remember and work on from time to time? Is there a team – or even an individual – anywhere in the company responsible for their development?

Any feedback at all is welcome at this point. We need to hear from them.

Acnologia.6934:

Donari.5237:

I think you can, it’ll just take a little longer. A friend without the mastery was able to jump up to me to get to the back way into the Golemancer’s Tomb, and I’m pretty sure the vista atop a tall jut of rock I spidermanned up to could be reached via gliding down from a higher level of the map.

It’s a totally awesome fun mastery, though, so get it if you can!

Where is that tomb? I completed even the jumping puzzle (the real one) but can’t find that tomb

Approach it from the south. Hug the extreme left side of the map. You will end up on a trail with a lot of mobs and eventually enter the cave entrance.

Mea.5491:

Wait, so I can’t complete this map if I don’t get the new mastery???

Not to worry. You can reach every point associated with map completion on the new map without once touching the new mastery.

The collection event does seem to require it (some of those things are in some CRAZY spots), but that isn’t needed for anything other than that single collection. I don see anything else where it is really necessary.

That said, you should level up the new mastery for no other reason than that it is REALLY fun.

Another huge home run. Love the map and the living story stuff.

Still looking for new guild missions and confused about how (or, at this point, if) they fit into the game’s development.

Letting us build the Oakheart Essence from the new map in the guild hall was a great touch.

More stuff like that please

(to add – let us build bouncy mushrooms )

zoomborg.9462:

It’s not very accurate but raid lfg is the most populated channel after fractals and the only time it’s empty is when people stop to go for reset fractals.
Another thing to mention is that u don’t really see raiders complaining about it. True some arguments were raised about how ez w4 is but no1 filled the forums with complain threads either here or on reddit. It is a suprising contrast with whats happening on other mode threads which reflects their appeal to the target-playerbase and how good the raid development team is performing.

You’re making an assumption here – one I suspect is probably incorrect (but again, were basing both our opinions on anecdotal and very unscientific observations). There are almost always at least 3-4 listings, even in off hours, across the open world map lfgs (Dragon Stand, Auric, etc).

As a quick test – this morning, I went and looked – 8 postings across open world listings, 4 across fractals, one in living story and one in raid lfg (a tempest looking for a group to do escort), and no listings in the section for raid groups looking for more (and were talking about an early raid reset day the day before leg armor comes out). Again, that is anecdotal and unscientific though – just did it to show that you cannot assume one is more popular than the other.

And I agree that the raid development team has done a good job on them. That was never in question. I just see a portion of the playerbase who would enjoy the raids at a lower difficulty level – and would definitely appreciate being able to experience (not just read about or watch a video) things like the Saul D’alesio storyline.

Fatalyz.7168:

As the person that we were responding to mentioned, it could have an impact on the type of mechanics that are introduced. I don’t think any of know if this would really happen or not, but it is a concern.

I think this would only be a factor if differentiation between the two modes was simple number scaling. I think it would be more likely that any story mote would involve peeling away the harder fight mechanics (just as challenge motes often add mechanics).

And to your points about the most recent wing and difficulty. If you look through many of these threads, you will find a lot of people talking about how easy the fights in that wing are compared to the first three. Some harder core raiders even claim those fights are already easy mode (a point I would argue is probably true for the top tier raiders – they aren’t hard enough for them). This, imo, is a result of Anet, rightfully so, trying to cater to a wider range of players with that wing (even though I feel they failed in that goal).

They are trying to please too many people with the single mode they are developing – and the result is they aren’t really offering anyone the experience they want. I think the only solution is tiered raiding. It lets developers focus the experience to the audience – including actual hardcore raiding for hardcore raiders.

Fatalyz.7168:

While yes, normal raid runners won’t run easy modes, just having easy modes can have an impact other areas of raid design, and he and myself, do not want that.

Are you suggesting that you don’t care if raid design is impacted and the overall quality diminished, just to add multiple levels of difficulty?

The biggest and only real impact I could see them having on other areas of raid design would be freeing up the raid team to make the difficult levels of raiding much more difficult. They wouldn’t have to worry about having to water them down at all to ease people in or encourage them to start raiding.

You do want actually hard fights in your raids, right?

The only other real argument I could see would be that it would consume resources, but I think (please dont make me explain that “I think” means opinion again) that point is negated by the inclusion of challenge motes in the last wing. Again, simply transition those resources to the development of story motes or raid versions.

Feanor.2358:

The content doesn’t just have to be difficult, it has to feel rewarding as well.

That’s why I think we’re not going to see an alternative method of obtaining it, just like we’ll never see a PvE-obtainable Ascension or a non-fractal Ad Infinitum.

I care little about reward (and would rather see this conversation in another thread), but I thought it was worth pointing out the flaw in your logic. As long as any legendary armor set offered through WvW or other game mode had a different skin, the one offered through raids would remain a “unique” reward – and would be a symbol of your effort. Again, functionality and power levels are meant to be equalized in this game. It is the aesthetics that differentiate rewards.

(and again, I would rather see this in another thread – and before anyone brings it up, yes, of course, the raid legendary armor should only be available through a harder version of the raid – any story mode should offer a signficantly lesser reward).

Fatalyz.7168:

Blaeys.3102:

But, at the same time, recognize that there are players who would really enjoy the raid fights, narrative, etc at a lower level of difficulty (and, again, by offering that, they would be free to put in more difficult encounters for those – including me – that want that kind of thing).

They recognize that those players exist, they specifically didn’t create this content for them.

So the question is, why should they change their stance on it? Perception? They knew the perception beforehand and embraced it. Because people want it? Pretty sure that not enough want it, for it to become a priority. Although if you have numbers indicating that a significant portion of the population wants it (>50% of the population across all regions, not just NA), I sure would like to see those.

I’m not asking how easy or little effort you think it will take to implement, I’m asking why should it be.

I agree this isn’t why the content was originally developed. However,I believe that, based on player feedback and perceptions the past 2 years, it is time to extend that experience. I believe this is needed not only for accessibility – but to allow them to really let go when it comes to developing true hardcore raid content as well.

The real question becomes the exact question you ask – how much effort it would take to do so. I agrue the existence of challenge motes in the last wing indicates it wouldnt take any more than they exhibited in making that wing.

And, as to the last few posts in this thread, thanks to those who stepped up and defended the “argue against the point – not the person posting” ideal. It really is important to keeping a conversation civil and productive on the forums. At this point, I think it is best to just ignore those who choose to attack people directly. We will just have the discussion around those individuals – with level headed posters – like Fatalyz, Skyper (whom I both disagree with but at least respect how they choose to discuss), etc. It isn’t worth wasting any more time on people whose only obvious goal is to shame and browbeat people into submission or silence (and I will, even here, refrain from calling out anyone directly).

Sykper.6583:

@Blaeys

Raids wouldn’t have even come to pass if there wasn’t a demand for challenging content. It’s beyond doubt that Arenanet failed to bring about the challenge through dungeons at release, and steadily through the years they have tried implementing different things to add a bit of that challenge in the game. Having things like the Toxic Wardens require stomping or their attacks involving evades, inclusion of breakbars as a requirement for certain chak enemies to perish from…

It’s incorrect to say this game was meant to be casual from the start.

(NOTE – I had to cut your post short in my reply due to forum restrictions – but I did read it all)

Thank you. Even though we disagree, you make your point without personal attacks.

To be clear, I agree with some of what you are saying – a lot of it actually. I don’t think GW2 should be, nor was it ever meant to be, focused heavily on casual players – and I agree that was likely never the dev’s goal, even at launch.

I also agree that raids came to be as a direct result of that need for challenging content – and they do a decent job of bringing that into the game.

But there have been issues arise from the introduction of raids – specifically related to accessibility (both story experience and interesting fights) – and they need to be addressed, imo.

What I advocate for isnt the removal of hard core content. To the contrary, I think we need a lot more of it in the game (across pve game modes). I just think the inclusion of multiple modes would be beneficial across the board. It would open raids up as a true story telling tool – letting developers weave it more tightly into end game. I would allow them to truly let loose and design hardcore fights meant to tighten us all up into the fetal position without having to worry about number of players at all. And, of course, it would address the accessibility issues we see discussed in many different locations.

So, again, Im a big fan of difficult content. I say bring it on. Make it exponentially
tougher than it is now. Beat the living hell out of us. But, at the same time, recognize that there are players who would really enjoy the raid fights, narrative, etc at a lower level of difficulty (and, again, by offering that, they would be free to put in more difficult encounters for those – including me – that want that kind of thing).

And again, thanks for keeping it civil and discussing the points rather than the poster.

Vinceman.4572:

There is no personal attack, I just don’t trust you if you keep saying stuff like the above and elsewhere pretending that raids have to have their existence.

When you call me out by name and call me untrustworthy, that is a personal attack – something I am getting very tired of from a small group of posters. If you cannot debate the points, you turn the attack onto the person making them. It’s sad.

Feel free to debate the points I make all you want – just stop with directed comments and insults.

It is stuff like this that keep alot of people from actually posting on the forums.

Vinceman.4572:

Blaeys.3102:

..what I see in game…

Uhm…
What are you seeing in game? Somebody counting raiders in the aerodrome? ^^
The LFG section of raids is the one with the most entries besides fractals and open world Central Tyria squads. Additionally Baghawans numbers of active users is not as low as was expected for me – and those numbers are just for one single dps meter from the market!

Blaeys.3102:

with a small spike coming next week because of leg armor – and then dropping off hard as raiders tire of the content).

Highly questionable because the huge majority of raiders is playing them for fun not for the armor.

The thing is, Blaeys, you always pretend to be objective and sober but with statements, half-truths and wrong assumptions with no proof at all and out of nowhere – like we can read above – you are noncredible to me and I wouldn’t trust you any single second!

I very clearly stated all of this was my opinion.

Feel free to disagree, but once again, please stop with the personal attacks. They add nothing to the conversation.

When I say “what I see in game” I simply mean I see people slowing down their raiding (in response to the numbers comment from the poster above me), which is to be expected.

It isn’t some malicious commentary on raiding – simply that things slow down between content drops and that is as true in raiding as it is anywhere.

But it is important. Fewer people raiding has an impact on people’s pugging and training options as much as it does anything.

Again, nothing malicious – and I really dont appreciate the personal attacks. Debate the topic and avoid personal comments (I think Gaile’s recent post about best practices on the forum even says this clearly).