Guild Wars 2

Henry.5713:

Personal perception of game difficulty does vary greatly between different groups of players in this game. It is the very reason why there is content catering towards each and every player. From very casual PvE to raids, from WvW blobs to high level tPvP.

And I just don’t understand why it bothers some players so much to not have all content being catered towards their own perception of difficulty.
Many of us do not consider any Open World content, including HoT, to be any challenge. We do not enjoy it much and hardly ever play it. You know, content that is very rewarding if not the most rewarding in this game. So what? There is other stuff to do, better challenges to take and greater fun to be had.

On old Orr, I don’t remember it to have been that hard. Annoying, yes sure and especially if you didn’t run a mobile build. Enemies still died in a cleave or two for me. I had already moved on to dungeons and hardly ever moved to that map long before they nerfed the numbers of enemies, so I don’t remember how much of a difference it made.

Almost no one is advocating for the removal of challenging content. I, for one, believe the game needs more of it.

But not at the cost of accessibility. Challenging content should be an extension of what the game is – not an entirely separate game mode made for a small percentage of the game’s population. At that point, they might as well be making two completely separate games.

If these are DDOS attacks, they seem to have occurred almost every night for the past week and a half. Even if they only last 5 to 20 minutes, they are disruptive to any kind of organized activity and make people want to simply log off and do something else.

I know this is something that is hard for a company to combat, but we have seen MMOs successfully fend them off in the past. I really hope Anet is looking into some kind of better defense against them – and not simply hoping they only last for a few minutes each time they occur – especially as the marketing for the next expansion begins.

There is no real reason to limit guild missions to the core maps – as others are saying, just make them into unique categories.

In fact, they even said they were “excited” about what the team could do with guild missions in the new maps just before HOT launch -

https://youtu.be/W1WBYEfJVb4?t=335

It’s worth noting – As of the last week in May, it has been more than 4 years since we saw a new guild mission.

It is WAY passed time to implement some new ones.

New Guild Missions

Vinceman.4572:

The only conclusion one can make from this process is people want to get access to the rewards via such easy mode.

“some people” – definitely not all, and most likely not even the majority.

Most of the people pushing for this that I have seen and talked to understand that lesser difficulty should mean significantly lesser reward.

zealex.9410:

Blaeys.3102:

I actually agree with TexZero on this one. If a story mode is implemented (and I believe it should be – we do differ in opinion on that one), it shouldn’t reward legendary insights.

My preferred option would be a single champ bag and 1/4 to 1/2 the normal magnetite shard drops per boss (repeatable once weekly) – with the understanding that the unique raid skins/minis/infusions are locked on the vendor until the boss is beaten at least once on the more difficult level. That way, players would have another way (albeit REALLY slow) to obtain ascended gear (generic skins) while enjoying the content.

1 li for clearing all 4 wings and its acount bound. Gamebreaking ik

IMO, legendary should mean legendary. It should mean mastering every part of the game.

If it were up to me, ALL legendaries (armor, weapons, back pieces – all of it) would require reaching the top of the game in every mode – top 10 percent in PvP, X number of player kills in WvW, timed completion of every jumping puzzle, CM kills of every raid boss. As it is, they aren’t really legendary – just pretty items with adjustable stats.

There should be some prestige behind acquiring them, and there currently isn’t (that goes for legendary armor as much as any of the others).

Of course, I still believe there needs to be a story mode raid, just not one that gives any kind of legendary or legendary leaning reward.

I actually agree with TexZero on this one. If a story mode is implemented (and I believe it should be – we do differ in opinion on that one), it shouldn’t reward legendary insights.

My preferred option would be a single champ bag and 1/4 to 1/2 the normal magnetite shard drops per boss (repeatable once weekly) – with the understanding that the unique raid skins/minis/infusions are locked on the vendor until the boss is beaten at least once on the more difficult level. That way, players would have another way (albeit REALLY slow) to obtain ascended gear (generic skins) while enjoying the content.

Agree with those saying it should never be about guaranteeing success.

It is about degrees and accessibility. As they are now, raids are considerably less accessible to players who enjoy specific professions, playstyles, etc.

Yes, there should always be a level that provides the greatest possible challenge. At the same time, however, there needs to be a better way for the less intense players to experience or enjoy the content – one that doesnt infringe on that difficult experience. I really dont see any other way to accomplish that other than tiers.

I’ve long believed that all instanced content – from living story chapters up to raids – would benefit greatly from scaling in the manner you describe. In addition to expanding the audience for each game type, it would add a lot of replayability to the content (and, as you note, it would make it easier for the devs to deliver compelling content across all modes).

zealex.9410:

Blaeys.3102:

zealex.9410:

Blaeys.3102:

Raids need to be as hard as they can make them – every single fight. If they are meant to be the ultimate challenge, then they need to be designed as such.

However, that is pretty much impossible with the current model in this particular game because it would mean significantly fewer people in the content and a greater rift in the community than we see now.

I know some people hate the idea, but imo, the only way to include the absolute hardest possible content, while still keeping the game mode alive and healthy, is through a tiered difficulty model – one that takes both accessibility and true challenge into account.

Without it, you end up with what we have now – content that is too watered down for some and too restrictive for others. I would much rather they design the fights to melt faces and then, afterwards, look at implementing story or accessibility motes or modes for those looking to train or just experience the content at a lower difficulty level.

But thing i we already have a pseudo tiered style system because raid wing 3-4 and partially 2 are easier with w4 being just faceroll even. That with the fact that ppl making group specifically to help ppl i enough. Anything easier will not help anyone g trasnition smoothely in the actual raiding.

Im glad you used the qualifier “pseudo.” Yes, some fights are easier than others, but – as it pertains to experiencing the story or wing, that actually makes things even more frustrating for more casual players. It means they experience 2/3 or 1/2 of the story and then get cut off.

Transitioning into raiding isnt the heart of this issue. Anyone wanting to experience top difficulty raiding can do so pretty easily now. It is more about opening the experience and fun of the content/story (which I admit is sparce)/etc to those players looking for it.

That level of accessibility will always need to be addressed in some way. With the last wing, their approach was to water down a few fights to the point where they provide no challenge to harder core players yet still prohibit the more casual players from participating. They tried to use single mode encounters to address multiple playstyles and commitment levels – and to no one’s surprise, they failed to offer the experience either side was looking for.

The only way they are going to overcome that particular obstacle is with tiered difficulty. Hopefully they are seeing that now.

I like that you used the “exeprience the story” arguement because a 1 man story mode with 1 time rewards shoudl do the trick on that. Im a suporter of that since it make sense to have and it will remove creative blocks on the raid designer so we might see actual story characters in raids against story relevant bosses (aka elder dragons).

Experience the wing mean exactly that experience whats there and fr that you need to play it as it is now anything diff no longer means experience the wing. Unless you meant story i which case scroll up.

It isn’t about absolutes. Of course you can still get a compelling and fun experience from an encounter at lower difficulties. I think you’re being a little too restrictive in your definition of “experience.” It just has to be done intelligently.

I would be all for a 1-5 player instance mirroring the raids along the lines you discuss above. It would alleviate a lot of my concerns. Not sure it would need to be a “one and done” type thing however, but then again, I’m not a fan of that anywhere in the game.

OnizukaBR.8537:

With “mathematical barriers to success” you mean the enrage? There is only two bosses that you cant fight then for 10 hours, Sabetha and Gorseval, both on wing 1, so besides this two encounters out of 13 encounters you cant go on with full nomads, all the other 11 encounters you can. (But even sab and gors are really lenient in what builds you can bring ). So no build limiting as you point.

Again, it is not a black or white, yes or no situation. It is about realistic degrees. And it isnt limited to enrage timers. It may come in the form of burst damage phases (short periods where much higher damage is needed to avoid a wipe or extreme negative situation) or other similar mechanics. As it stands, the fight is WAY more forgiving with groups that bring the “right” professions (and again, that is how it should be at the highest difficulty levels), and exponentially more frustrating for groups that do not (again, not absolutes – degrees).

Im just looking for a way for the “other” players to realistically (very important word) enjoy the content.

zealex.9410:

Blaeys.3102:

Raids need to be as hard as they can make them – every single fight. If they are meant to be the ultimate challenge, then they need to be designed as such.

However, that is pretty much impossible with the current model in this particular game because it would mean significantly fewer people in the content and a greater rift in the community than we see now.

I know some people hate the idea, but imo, the only way to include the absolute hardest possible content, while still keeping the game mode alive and healthy, is through a tiered difficulty model – one that takes both accessibility and true challenge into account.

Without it, you end up with what we have now – content that is too watered down for some and too restrictive for others. I would much rather they design the fights to melt faces and then, afterwards, look at implementing story or accessibility motes or modes for those looking to train or just experience the content at a lower difficulty level.

But thing i we already have a pseudo tiered style system because raid wing 3-4 and partially 2 are easier with w4 being just faceroll even. That with the fact that ppl making group specifically to help ppl i enough. Anything easier will not help anyone g trasnition smoothely in the actual raiding.

Im glad you used the qualifier “pseudo.” Yes, some fights are easier than others, but – as it pertains to experiencing the story or wing, that actually makes things even more frustrating for more casual players. It means they experience 2/3 or 1/2 of the story and then get cut off.

Transitioning into raiding isnt the heart of this issue. Anyone wanting to experience top difficulty raiding can do so pretty easily now. It is more about opening the experience and fun of the content/story (which I admit is sparce)/etc to those players looking for it.

That level of accessibility will always need to be addressed in some way. With the last wing, their approach was to water down a few fights to the point where they provide no challenge to harder core players yet still prohibit the more casual players from participating. They tried to use single mode encounters to address multiple playstyles and commitment levels – and to no one’s surprise, they failed to offer the experience either side was looking for.

The only way they are going to overcome that particular obstacle is with tiered difficulty. Hopefully they are seeing that now.

OnizukaBR.8537:

Blaeys.3102:

Up until the introduction of raids, this is something Anet clearly understood very well – and something they could fix with tiered levels of difficulty inside raids.

So lets discuss this statement.
You say that A-Net understood that you need tiered difficult until raids were introduced, Right?
So just explain to me, because i missed it, where is the Hard Mode of ascalon catacombs ?
Where is the hard mode shadow of behemoth ?
And where is the easy mode of Arah p4 and TA Aetherpath ?
So outside of fractals everything in the game always had only 1 mode. And should stay that way.
And before you say we have story dungeon and explorable mode.
Well we have scort on w4 and mathias in w2. The same comparison ( because story and explorable dont offer the same encounters, dont offer the same rewards so its not tiered difficuly dungeons).

It is about degrees and mathematic-based skill walls. None of the examples you cite above utilize any kind of mathematical barriers to success – with the possible exception of Simin during the brief period where that fight was overtuned (but even that was adjusted). As a result, there are no builds that cannot realistically overcome any of those fights, even in unskilled hands. It just makes the fights longer.

Regardless of how many videos you show of skilled players using off meta classes to beat the fights, the same isnt true in raids. Yes, the enrage timers and burst damage phases in the raids are not as strict as they could be, but they still exist – and help define the difficulty of the fights. And, for the record, I think that is fine in the more difficult modes.

The most difficult modes should be there for those looking for the challenge. That has never been in question as far as I am concerned. The inclusion of lesser difficulty modes would be there for those players who just want to experience the content without the dedication or with the professions they enjoy (and, of course, the rewards should be considerably less than what is given in harder modes).

Raids need to be as hard as they can make them – every single fight. If they are meant to be the ultimate challenge, then they need to be designed as such.

However, that is pretty much impossible with the current model in this particular game because it would mean significantly fewer people in the content and a greater rift in the community than we see now.

I know some people hate the idea, but imo, the only way to include the absolute hardest possible content, while still keeping the game mode alive and healthy, is through a tiered difficulty model – one that takes both accessibility and true challenge into account.

Without it, you end up with what we have now – content that is too watered down for some and too restrictive for others. I would much rather they design the fights to melt faces and then, afterwards, look at implementing story or accessibility motes or modes for those looking to train or just experience the content at a lower difficulty level.

I can attest first hand that it is EXTREMELY difficult to discuss this topic on the forums or reddit. You will be attacked. You will be mocked. You may even (as I did last year) get death threats.

And I agree with Onizuka on one point – the simple existence of these threads isn’t reason enough to make one argument stronger than the other. At the same time, there is no good reason to shut down the dialogue – especially as new people enter the conversation.

To the point about other game modes. you cannot really compare pvp and pve in terms of scaling difficulty. All a developer can do in PVP is try their best to match people with comparable skill together in either leagues or ladders (which is EXACTLY what Anet tries to do for both PvP and WvW).

In PvE, where the opponent is the AI, that kind of matchmaking comes from difficulty tiers – matching player skill, dedication, etc to the tier that best fits their playstyle and skill. True, you can use different game content to accomplish this, but when you do, you might as well be designing completely different games. When you do that, you introduce exclusion and ego into the mix in a way that segments and DAMAGES the game’s community.

Up until the introduction of raids, this is something Anet clearly understood very well – and something they could fix with tiered levels of difficulty inside raids.

ButterPeanut.9746:

This is my point exactly. By “trolling” posts I didn’t mean the ones who are asking for EZ mode raids, I meant the responses to them that are like “haha git gud, EZ”.

For a new player, it is fine if they have these same concerns and have a post. My point is that when this occurs we don’t really need another thread that is 30 pages long. A simple post with “Hey this has been discussed on the forum very heavily, here are some links to those threads” would suffice. Then after reading, if that new person feels they can add some value to the conversation, then sure feel free to keep adding comments. Otherwise, the post with the links could be the end of it.

My point is that having new people, old people, etc constantly repeat the same arguments back and forth with no value added doesn’t get us anywhere. It certainly doesn’t give ANET any more reason to meet the needs of the people asking for change.

They know this is a concern. They know that the number of players it affects is constantly changing. We really don’t need to have the same conversation today as we did 1 year ago. A simple link to it and “please feel free to add comments if you feel your thoughts haven’t been addressed by the previous discussion” should be enough.

I’m not trying to silence anyone. I’m trying to keep the discussion relevant with new value added/thoughts. Not to keep it around just to say “me too”.

I actually respect this point of view – and it is another reason I haven’t been active in these threads the past few weeks.

The issue I have is when people (not you) try to play it off as a dead topic because they think it has somehow been resolved – or by downplaying it and using a lack of recent posts as evidence of that. Or, even worse, by mocking and belittling the people who bring the topic up (which happens WAY too much in these threads).

It is still a very relevant topic, even with pretty much every point/counterpoint having been made. I have some trust that ArenaNet sees and understands that, but I also know that they tend to ignore topics that aren’t actively being discussed here, on reddit, etc.

I do agree that there needs to be a good way to bring new participants up to speed on the topic without rehashing every argument every single time.

ButterPeanut.9746:

In my opinion, the reason we see these “troll” posts is because the constant stream of “we need EZ mode raids” are essentially the gw2 forum equivalent of a Facebook “bump”. All it does it bring an existing thread back to the forefront with no value added.

In that case, the appropriate response is just for someone to link any of the hundreds of pages of posts that this topic has already been discussed on. If after reading, the poster still feels like they can bring some value to the conversation, by all means add it in. The problem here is that we’ve been going in circles for over a year.

To be 100% truthful, keep these posts at the top of the forum with a “bump” post doesn’t give ANET any more incentive to take your suggestion. The conversation does, and the conversation is stale at this point.

You are oversimplifying the issue. People post because this is something they feel passionate about – not simply to “bump” a topic.

Additionally, we see new people join the conversation on a regular basis. Even when these threads have died away or, in very rare situations, been closed, they only resurface a few days later by someone new to the conversation who didnt see the NOVELs of text already posted on this issue.

Personally, I have consciously avoided posting too much in any of these threads for the past few weeks because I felt I was dominating too much of the conversation. To no surprise, the topic remained relevant, even with no new raids or raid related announcements from Anet.

People can try to play this topic off as trollish or unimportant or “its just people bumping posts” all they want – reality is, it isn’t going away because it is still something a group of players want in the game. It doesn’t take anything away from the challenge of what is there now. It adds replayability and extends the experience to more players. It really is something that is needed.

Ramoth.9064:

I love this. Joke topic from 3 weeks ago is still on the front page. Keep it!

It’s still on the front page because it is still an issue for a lot of people – even when people go out of their way to ridicule or belittle others for even bringing the topic up.

At this point, most of what can be said about this has been said – but the topic remains the most discussed point regarding raids here, on reddit and on pretty much every media and fan site. That alone shows that some kind of change is needed in how raids are developed.

And, yes, there is a very vocal group opposed to that kind of action. But the solutions proposed (story mote, multiple modes) wouldn’t take ANYTHING away from those players. Most of the arguments against story or easy modes are selfish ones, plain and simple.

It will probably be a while before we see the next raid wing. Hopefully Anet takes that time to come up with a real solution to this issue (which, no matter how many times people try to mock or belittle it, is still a real issue for many).

Given the amount of effort taken to get that armor – and how good it actually looks – I agree.

They should make this legendary armor – or at least a precursor to a set of legendary WvW armor.

Love this list and would applaud if even half of these items made the final version.

As far as things to cut, I would question the need for space for stuff you buy from Miyani (eldritch scroll, philosopher stones, etc). Given that those items are only used in the mystic forge, having them purchasable right next to the forge makes them easy enough to get to as is.

Just my input though. Maybe someone had a good reason for including them.

Just another indication that GW2 is quickly becoming a game more about math, copy-pasting builds and min-maxing than anything else.

It’s still possible to enjoy the game if you don’t play that way but it is definitely becoming harder and harder to do so.

Seem like good changes all around.

Particularly like the idea of pairing better rewards for your servers position in the skirmish with better rewards for fighting while outnumbered. Should provide a nice balance while still rewarding teamwork.

As with all things WvW, however, we wont know until the changes are released into the wild. WvW seems like the hardest part of the game to balance and develop (for obvious reasons). Be interesting to see how it plays out.

1. Underground Facility (specifically the last fight)
2. Chaos
3. Mai Trin

Absurdo.8309:

Blaeys.3102:

Absurdo.8309:

On the flip side, I don’t feel like a hero in the living story, because it’s too easy. Where’s the hard mode draconis mons?

There’s plenty of content to go around. It sounds selfish when you request that every single piece of lore cater to every player.

Plus, this is some side lore, not even the main story of guild wars 2.

First, it most definitely isnt selfish. Your example is faulty. The difference between Draconis Mons and the raids is that the Draconis Mons experience is not exclusionary in any sense. The same cannot be said of of the raid experience where off builds or playstyles result in extreme levels of frustration. And, if there were a way to include harder content in open world in a way that made sense, I would be all for it.

Second, there is no such thing as side lore. That is a semantic distinction one developer tried to float to justify exclusionary design – nothing more. These are stories that take place in the world of Tyria and involve characters/settings/etc in that world. And, they are stories players are interested in experiencing – that is what really matters. You could just as easily call all of the stories in the game side stories since there are several story arcs that have started or played out since the game started.

It’s 100% exclusionary. I don’t get the hero vibe from that content, so I’m excluded from being a hero.

Sure, I could get the lore from pressing 1 through the content, but that’s not the same as experiencing a heroic adventure.

… or, maybe it’s ok that guild wars 2 has a lot of content across all experience levels. Different strokes for different folks.

When you’re kicked from the map for playing a toon you enjoy, then you can call it exclusionary.

You are trying to make this a this or that/black and white argument (with failed sarcasm) when it really isn’t.

An MMO isnt a linear storyline where we follow the hero down a preset path. Instead, it is a living world and environment built around two things – the individual player and the community. It is ArenaNet’s task to make the player and the community feel like the main focus of that world – the heroes of Tyria.

Raids have taken that away from a segment of the population. That build and playstyle that Sarah put hours of love and attention into making uniquely hers felt like that hero. Now, with the addition of restrictively designed raids, that character is a second class hero – able to take on and defeat all of the terrors of the world – except for the worst of the worst.

I know there are a lot of people that don’t play that way – that take min-maxing and being the highest performing character possibly very seriously. And there is nothing wrong with that. There should be content that pushes their limits.

But for the others – for players like Sarah – the current game environment is shattering that sense of epic heroism. And that is both disheartening and un-fun.

So, yes, you can be the best of the best in the game. Have fun min maxing and pushing the math of the game to the limits. But, please realize that there are other kinds of players out there as well – an entire community of players that need that immersive heroic feel (even if you don’t). It is about realizing the world doesnt revolve around a single kind of player – that, ESPECIALLY at end game and ESPECIALLY in the are designed to provide the most epic experience – varying levels of accessibility are critical to the game’s success.

Absurdo.8309:

On the flip side, I don’t feel like a hero in the living story, because it’s too easy. Where’s the hard mode draconis mons?

There’s plenty of content to go around. It sounds selfish when you request that every single piece of lore cater to every player.

Plus, this is some side lore, not even the main story of guild wars 2.

First, it most definitely isnt selfish. Your example is faulty. The difference between Draconis Mons and the raids is that the Draconis Mons experience is not exclusionary in any sense. The same cannot be said of of the raid experience where off builds or playstyles result in extreme levels of frustration. And, if there were a way to include harder content in open world in a way that made sense, I would be all for it.

Second, there is no such thing as side lore. That is a semantic distinction one developer tried to float to justify exclusionary design – nothing more. These are stories that take place in the world of Tyria and involve characters/settings/etc in that world. And, they are stories players are interested in experiencing – that is what really matters. You could just as easily call all of the stories in the game side stories since there are several story arcs that have started or played out since the game started.

Storytelling differs between media. Douglas Adams (Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy) is famous for telling the same story in very different ways between four different media – the BBC radio broadcast (where he started), the books (which we are all familiar with), the movie (which he did write) and even a video game in the 80s (which he also developed copy for).

And every one of them differed in extreme ways. He firmly believed that the medium through which the story is told is part of the story.

The point is, the story of the raids (however slight you think it is) was developed with this particular medium in mind. Expecting a cleared instance or youtube video to convey the experience of being a hero in this story (which is what we expect from a video game) is shortsighted.

It isn’t about lore. It is about the experience of being the hero in the story. That is how video games differ from movies, books, etc. Current raid design expects a number of people to play in ways they do not enjoy. Providing a story mode would be about giving them that experience – without having to impede with how the harder core raiders enjoy the story.

You may not see a need for it. You may think what is provided now is “good enough.” But that doesnt mean others feel that same way. GW2 has always been very good at making sure pretty much every build had a realistic and non-frustrating way to enjoy PVE content (yes, even in Arah explorable modes – with the possible exception of the brief period when Simin was overtuned – but even that was fixed). It’s time to take that same philosophy with raids.

Sykper.6583:

Triggerbrand.8072:

I think there are at least 10 threads about this.

Man I wish there were just 10. There were about 4 or so threads and a megathread about raids Prior to HoT Launch.

More often than not you have to go through several filters of posters who plainly want the raid rewards without actually raiding, to find the guys who actually care about Lore or something of that nature.

I would contest this point. The number of people Ive seen discussing raid rewards – at least on par with what the harder mode offers – are few and far between. In fact, I can only think of one and he hasnt really posted in a while. People try to make it about loot because that is easier to argue against (and I even agree – loot on par with what we have now has no place in a story or easier mode).

Most realize this isnt a discussion about loot. It is a discussion about accessibility.

There is a reason this thread keeps resurfacing. This is something many in the community want. Even as each conversation (which can become monotonous, I admit) plays out, new people surface who see the issue and restart the discussion. Ideally, these threads would be merged, but I can see why the mods don’t. It would be a significant task to keep up with it.

It does show the continued desire for this kind of change – from new people on a pretty consistent basis – however. As always, I hope Anet is paying attention.

As of today (May 28), it has been exactly four years since the last new guild mission was added to the game.

FrostDraco.8306:

Blaeys.3102:

FrostDraco.8306:

zealex.9410:

TexZero.7910:

I still will never get the we want a “story mode” crowd when there’s literally hours of footage on youtube for them to consume about the very loose existence of lore in the raids.

Pretty sure those people really just want the rewards but use a mode as justification for their desire not to do it the current way.

if you want to experience lets say th witcher and you cant buy it for whatever reason will watching it on the youtube be enough?

False quivolence. Making the story mode easy subtracks from the gameplay itself. There is a reason games like Dark Souls, and RPGs are loved. While games like CoD has campaigns that go mostly ignored even if having the option of a high difficulty.

You aren’t watching someone play raids, you are playing a watered down version. The reason Lets players are so popular is because they can play these games for people who can not. And yes, if i couldn’t play a game, or i sucked at a game, i would be more than happy to watch a Lets Play of it. I do it all the time.

However I don’t have the self entitlement to suggest that a game that has a curve be nerfed so I can experience ‘story’ that wont be NEARLY as good as if i had did it the way it was intended at first.

The difficulty of raids is part of the experience. But i guess thats why people care soooooo much about dungeon story right? It’s too easy, and its watered down, hence part of the reason no one cares about it. Deimos for instance, feels epic because he’s not some lame dungeon story boss. He feels epic because he can actually kill you. It feels good to kill him. Can you say you have ever felt the same about any of the dungeon stories? Cause literally no one i know has.

And if that is the experience you are looking for, it is there for you.

The existence of a story mode in no way detracts from the difficulty or prestige of a more difficult mode. Any illusion that it does is in the mind of the player – and can be gotten past.

Tell that to the dungeon story modes that go abandoned outside of dailies and cheap tokens.

Tell that to the HoT metas, like Garent, that people love because it actually has a chance of failing.

Better yet, tell that to most games that have a casual non-competitive audience. Except for the fact that the most popular games ARE the competitive ones, for the added difficulty of playing vs other players.

Anyone that says it can be gotten past it are deluding themselves into thinking difficulty doesn’t make a difference in presentation of a story, is sorely mistaken. All the evidence points to the opposite. But instead you argue for the illusion of engagement, which story mode dungeons in GW2 just do not have. They are poor experiences, hence why the player base doesn’t care for the story paths.

But this is all under the assumption that some like the non mote w4 bosses are actually even difficult.

They. Are. Not.

And if you look at the modes as separate and independent of one another, it becomes a non issue.

No one realistically thinks T4 fractals are easier or thinks less of accomplisments there because T1 fractals exist.

The same is true of most single player game with multiple difficulties as well. Your mind goes to DS because it specifically markets itself in a particular way – but there are tons of games that offer a real challenge to one set of players while offering something else to another.

Im sorry – the argument that a story mode would diminish your accomplishment in hard mode raids (especially in GW2 – where the hard mode raids aren’t really that hard anyway) doesn’t hold water.

FrostDraco.8306:

zealex.9410:

TexZero.7910:

I still will never get the we want a “story mode” crowd when there’s literally hours of footage on youtube for them to consume about the very loose existence of lore in the raids.

Pretty sure those people really just want the rewards but use a mode as justification for their desire not to do it the current way.

if you want to experience lets say th witcher and you cant buy it for whatever reason will watching it on the youtube be enough?

False quivolence. Making the story mode easy subtracks from the gameplay itself. There is a reason games like Dark Souls, and RPGs are loved. While games like CoD has campaigns that go mostly ignored even if having the option of a high difficulty.

You aren’t watching someone play raids, you are playing a watered down version. The reason Lets players are so popular is because they can play these games for people who can not. And yes, if i couldn’t play a game, or i sucked at a game, i would be more than happy to watch a Lets Play of it. I do it all the time.

However I don’t have the self entitlement to suggest that a game that has a curve be nerfed so I can experience ‘story’ that wont be NEARLY as good as if i had did it the way it was intended at first.

The difficulty of raids is part of the experience. But i guess thats why people care soooooo much about dungeon story right? It’s too easy, and its watered down, hence part of the reason no one cares about it. Deimos for instance, feels epic because he’s not some lame dungeon story boss. He feels epic because he can actually kill you. It feels good to kill him. Can you say you have ever felt the same about any of the dungeon stories? Cause literally no one i know has.

And if that is the experience you are looking for, it is there for you.

The existence of a story mode in no way detracts from the difficulty or prestige of a more difficult mode. Any illusion that it does is in the mind of the player – and can be gotten past.

Sly.9518:

I have been discussing this this entire time…..

And your statement illustrates something I was trying to prove, players wanted a “story Mode” for the Story(almost all requests say they only want it for the story) any concession to the story mode and now people are asking for Rewards, when previously all they wanted was the story, now rewards are being brought up, so if any concession is provided for the rewards it will escalate into wanting magnetite shards, then Li and so on.

What you are discussing is the slippery slope argument – and most people recognize that, while it should be considered, it should never dictate the decision alone. You cannot inhibit progress for fear of future actions. You can only steel yourself against those future actions and hold firm to that resolve.

If people start advocating for rewards on par with the difficult modes, I will advocate against that idea as strongly as I currently advocate for story mode.

I’ve said before, the reward model I would support would include 50 silver per boss, a champion loot bag and a few magnetite shards – with the understanding that the magnetite vendor would only sell unique skins and minis AFTER the player had beaten the harder mode version of the fight (as it does now). The magnetite shards would only be there as a means to help players more easily gear for the harder raids.

Including some minimal reward on par with the rest of the non-raiding game is a VERY far cry from giving story mode anything even closely resembling hard mode difficulty gear.

Sly.9518:

Again so the players that Anet knew wouldn’t like the content and those players proved they don’t like the content, want to force their way into that content even though it was never designed for them? All for some “story”?

So if Anet develops a “Story” mode that provides no rewards and allow everyone unfettered access to just the Raids “story” the only prize being the “story” and nothing else, the easy mode players will still complain.

And if they did just make a “story” mode it would be wasted content since most would one and done, since their would be next to no reason to repeat it.

Remember most people screaming for a Easymode/story mode say it’s because of the lore/“story” and nothing else

First – thank you for actually discussing the topic.

My counter would be simply that what you discuss here is a design and reward issue more than anything. The same could be said of anything in game – including open world. The first time through is for the experience, but the content itself has to meet two criteria (imo) to encourage continued activity.

First, it must be fun. And, while a lower difficulty may not be fun for the top end raiders, I have to believe it would for those in less accepted builds and with less skill.

Second, there would still need to be a minimal reward. It would (imo) definitely not be what the top end raids offer, but something in line with what you get from completing a dungeon or world boss might be appropriate.

I dont see a significant challenge meeting those two criteria. The systems to make them a reality are inherent in the game as it stands now. And, again, if you can meet those criteria, the content becomes more valuable to both the community and the developers.

Vinceman.4572:

Nah, not really.

It was way louder during dungeon peak time in addition to the “zerk meta”.

For those that regularly did dungeons, it was a pretty common term, but I do agree that it is used more pervasively across the game now – as a result of how raids are perceived.

I will add, I do not believe there are as many true elitists as some think out there. In my mind, an elitist is someone who irrationally excludes people they feel are inferior in some way.

What we have in game is not irrational – but rather driven by the content and the developers moreso than the players. I blame this on a severely lopsided (and, imo, broken) meta and raid content that emphasizes kill fast design in ways the game actually hasn’t in the past (and, outside a brief period when Simin was overtuned and the next to last encounter in the 100 CM fractal, it really hasn’t).

The result is bias against builds and playstyles that significantly differ from the accepted mold. And, believe it or not, I do not blame people for doing this – and I do not see them as elitist for doing so. It is currently the least frustrating (and most enjoyable) way to approach the content.

But I can also see why others see this as elitist (even though it doesnt fit my definition of that word).

But it is also why I stress that the best way to deal with it is through a story or easy mode. I do not want them to touch the higher end difficulty at all (except, maybe, to make it harder). There needs to be a place for those looking for that challenge.

It is when the people looking for that challenge are forced to play the same mode as those simply looking for the experience that the friction occurs. And I realize “forced” is a hard term to use. But it applies – players looking for the experiences available in the raids right now have to subject themselves to the raids as they are right now.

The obvious solution is to split the experience (which includes different rewards, imo) – and that means story modes.

So, again, I don’t blame (most of) the current players raiding for this. Yes, some take the power of being in charge of successful groups to their heads and act in elitist ways, but the onus for the issue – and with coming up with a solution – lies with Anet.

Forum bugs are crawling around again.

Vinceman.4572:

Haven’t seen anti-raids or need-story-mode threads on reddit over a month btw. and I’m checking HoT and Top section every day.

That is to be expected. Raids arent top of mind for most people right now. The conversation usually dies down between content drops. I was actually surprised (in a good way) to see the last two threads that popped up on this subforum.

And, I feel a need to qualify something. My post above this one does not apply to everyone advocating against story or easy mode. There are several posters who make a real effort to have a civil discussion (and I count Vinceman among that group, btw). While we obviously disagree, I respect that a lot. When the vitriolic undertones aren’t present, there have been some pretty productive conversations around this topic (for all sides).

EDIT – but of course, it didn’t take long for the irrational need to personally attack rather than engage in actual conversation to resurface (even as I was typing this post ), did it? Of course people will avoid the conversation when that is the typical response it invokes.

MerlinGamer.7410:

I’ve been thinking about this a lot and there seems to be many many many more voices saying that this would be a bad thing rather than a good thing. I’m… I’m not sure if I’m 100% convinced but I think there must be something there.
I don’t know if the easy mode people are dwindling because they are quitting the game or if they really have moved on.

I don’t think they have moved on or quit the game. I think there are actually several reasons you get this impression on these particular forums.

First, the only real place where there are more voices against this idea are here – on the raiding subforum of the GW2 forums. And that is to be expected.

Look anywhere else – Reddit, media sites like MMORPG or massivelyOP or the general discussion subforum (when the mods allow a raiding conversation to happen there without moving it to this subforum instead) – and the inverse is usually true. The call for this kind of change is pretty significant. If you go back to the first real discussion about this topic (the raiding CDI), it is even more obvious. In game, I hear from people every day – and I have gotten mail messages through this forum with people supporting the idea. They are simply reticent to comment publicly because of the next reason -

Second, there is a small group of people who constantly berate, insult and browbeat anyone who dares to offer any criticism of the raids in their current form. It is VERY (EXTREMELY actually) hard to have this discussion on this subforum. You don’t see most of the more extreme posts because they have been removed by moderators, but the attacks from the same 3-5 posters are pretty vicious. I have even had people hunt me down in game to yell their insults – and even had one particularly nasty poster (who is in this thread, btw) follow me onto reddit and threaten to come to my home and kill my family.

And finally, it really is spearheaded by a small group of posters – several of whom are obviously in the same guild. For whatever reason, they are against this idea and have no issues getting as nasty as needed to shut the conversation down.

And while I personally do not respond to that kind of BS (I served with the US Marines for six years. I don’t back down when confronted – I have the opposite response), there are a lot of people who simply dont think it is worth wading through the constant barrage of hate, insults and even threats to be part of the conversation (and who can blame them). It’s disgusting and it’s sad.

Feanor.2358:

Blaeys.3102:

Im not saying the damage-focused approach is bad. It is most likely necessary to maintain the illusion of difficulty for min-max players. Im saying that secondary difficulties (story mode) would open the experience to those players who aren’t as concerned with the mathematics of damage-focused design.

You’re probably right, except it would open a very different experience. My personal feeling is, it would be a disappointing experience.

I will concede that fact. It would be a disappointing experience for most people currently enjoying the raids as they stand today – so, for you personally, it would probably be disappointing. Here’s the thing though – you arent the only one playing GW2.

There are many different kinds of people playing the game – which is the whole point. Different modes would serve to address the gameplay desires of different kinds of players. If that can be done with reasonable developmental effort (which I firmly believe it can), then there is no downside to doing it.

OnizukaBR.8537:

Blaeys.3102:

OnizukaBR.8537:

I think i will post this video anytime anyone complain about enrage and build diversity on raids:
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/140375798

If 10 man PUGS! turrent enginer can raid, anyone with anybuild can, if you cant i bet the problem isnt your build, but you failing to do mechanics, and if you cant even fail mechanics after doing mistake after mistake where is the fun in the game? You cant always win no matter what you do, if you could that would be the dullest game ever

You’re talking about a single raid encounter (that doesn’t utilize a true enrage) that admittedly was tuned as an intro fight (and that doesnt use an enrage resembling the rest of the raids in any real way) – using gimmick builds that are a known issue – to exemplify the raid scene in GW2.

To explain what you’re actually watching in that video – turret builds allow for continual damage output in low AOE damage (from the enemy) scenarios where the actual player needs to move in and out of range a lot. In other words, the mechanics of this particular fight allow players to exploit features in ways that generate more damage output than balance intended. It was a smart move by whoever set it up, but it isn’t indicative of anything other than a strong understanding of the fight mechanics combined with how turrets work.

Groups will always come up with creative ways to do things like this – and then people who dont understand what is actually going on will try to use those as justifications for debating against accessibility features. It’s a good thing, but it doesnt equal build diversity. You can post it all you want to try and prove a point, but it is a faulty representation.

That said, I will say that how they designed Cairn is a step in the right direction as it pertains to a lower difficulty encounter – a direction they should probably take even further with every future raid boss if they continue to resist the idea of a story mode.

All i read are excuses trying to justify only turret eng ( they were only using turret nothing else ) as a valid strategy, when it is clearly a joke build.
Any build can clear raids, but sure turret enginer is actually a good build and therefore they killed cairn lol.
So yeah raids have a clear build barrier /s

I never said it was a serious strategy. Like most of these things, it is someone cleverly identifying an exploitable feature or aspect of the game that bypasses or minimizes an aspect of the fight. You see that – time and again – in pretty much every raiding game out there.

And then you see people who cannot understand that simple fact trying to make more out of it in an uninformed attempt to belittle requests for greater accessibility or gameplay elements.

It doesnt make it a viable strategy. It makes it an aberration – and not something to be held up as an example of ANYTHING whatsoever.

We all know that, in skilled hands, most builds can clear most (not all) raid fights. But what we are talking about here is the average player and a realistic, non-frustrating experience. That is all people are looking for in the request.

And, as much as people want to belittle people for simply asking (which is usually just a way to try and browbeat into silence when real counterpoints cannot be made), it is a reasonable request.

OnizukaBR.8537:

I think i will post this video anytime anyone complain about enrage and build diversity on raids:
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/140375798

If 10 man PUGS! turrent enginer can raid, anyone with anybuild can, if you cant i bet the problem isnt your build, but you failing to do mechanics, and if you cant even fail mechanics after doing mistake after mistake where is the fun in the game? You cant always win no matter what you do, if you could that would be the dullest game ever

You’re talking about a single raid encounter (that doesn’t utilize a true enrage) that admittedly was tuned as an intro fight (and that doesnt use an enrage resembling the rest of the raids in any real way) – using gimmick builds that are a known issue – to exemplify the raid scene in GW2.

To explain what you’re actually watching in that video – turret builds allow for continual damage output in low AOE damage (from the enemy) scenarios where the actual player needs to move in and out of range a lot. In other words, the mechanics of this particular fight allow players to exploit features in ways that generate more damage output than balance intended. It was a smart move by whoever set it up, but it isn’t indicative of anything other than a strong understanding of the fight mechanics combined with how turrets work.

Groups will always come up with creative ways to do things like this – and then people who dont understand what is actually going on will try to use those as justifications for debating against accessibility features. It’s a good thing, but it doesnt equal build diversity. You can post it all you want to try and prove a point, but it is a faulty representation.

That said, I will say that how they designed Cairn is a step in the right direction as it pertains to a lower difficulty encounter – a direction they should probably take even further with every future raid boss if they continue to resist the idea of a story mode.

Feanor.2358:

Enrage timers are primarily a mercy mechanic. They can make the difference between success and a wipe, but it’s extremely rare. In general if you hit the enrage, you’re struggling a lot and you’ll most likely wipe anyway. They don’t really add any significant difficulty.

You are definitely right about them not adding any real difficulty. All they do is help to (again, it isnt just about enrage timers) emphasize the importance of damage centric professions and playstyles – including those support builds that add to that damage.

The result is the meta (there is a reason QT ranks build viability by dps) – and a more frustrating experience for those people who enjoy professions that differ significantly from that meta.

Im not saying the damage-focused approach is bad. It is most likely necessary to maintain the illusion of difficulty for min-max players. Im saying that secondary difficulties (story mode) would open the experience to those players who aren’t as concerned with the mathematics of damage-focused design.

The difference between raids and dungeons at launch (and even different than T4 fractals) is that raids, in addition to adding to the difficulty, add in hard mathematical walls (enrage timers for one, but not the only one). Yes – speed running dungeon groups still min-maxed, but other players could enjoy them (albeit slower) as well with little to no frustration.

By incorporating these elements into raids, they put artificial limits on the realistically viable playstyles, builds, etc that can be enjoyed in the content. Yes, I agree that, for anything close to the meta, the timers are lenient, but they are limiting to the average player, none the less. The same is true of and burst damage mechanics or mechanics that require specific types of damage or utility.

And, once again, Im not saying those barriers do not belong in the game. It is just that, since there is only one version of the raids, they create an artificial exclusivity within raids. A story mode or lesser difficulty of some kind would alleviate that concern – while the higher end versions would continue to offer the challenge to the more mathematically inclined players.

And this is most definitely not a settled issue. It is obviously still a concern to a number of players – thus why the topic seems to naturally reoccur on the forums every so often (even during raid release down times like we have now).

Forum bug strikes again.

People keep bringing up target audience and the original intent of raids.

Because it should be said, I will – none of that matters in the least. It is simple semantics. The target audience for game content is people who play the game and people who might enjoy playing the game (potential customers). It is as simple as that.

No one can say with a straight face that the game at launch was targeted to the same people it is targeted at today. The game has adapted around the desires of the players – it has changed in ways that some find appealing and in ways some find unnecessary – with the singular goal of offering players fun things to do in game. And, I think, for the most part, it has been successful in achieving that goal. The same needs to happen with raids.

Raids haven’t been out that long. They are not sacrosanct content that is immune to growth and change. In fact, it is in these first years that they MUST evolve into something that fits with the game as a whole – as all new PVE content modes must (and do).

So, I do not see any validity to the argument that raids must have a singular mode simply because that is what they had when they were first introduced.

As for another popular argument – that a story mote would require more work than a challenge mote – my opinion stands that it would not. Taking Vale Guardian as an example, I believe it would likely be enough to simply remove the enrage timer and the green circle mechanics. The fight would retain some complexity and still require a modicum of skill, but it would be considerably easier for both starter groups and those who dislike playing the build wars metagame. It isnt about making the fights mindnumbingly easy – it is about leveling the playing field based on builds and preferred playstyles.

Please, however, keep in mind, that is simply conjecture on my part. As with all things (including the challenge motes they currently use), any change would require testing and tweaking before a final judgement could be made.

The one undeniable fact that remains, however, is that there are people in the community asking for this – and I think that group is large enough to warrant serious consideration by the developers (and I full expect they will eventually realize they have to do exactly that).

Sly.9518:

As pointed out multiple times before the challenge notes only add extra mechanics they don’t touch or rebalance anything else, unlike what the Story more or easy mode notes would do…. which rebalancing would more likely than not take more development time to test and adjust the mode over all than say slap on an additional mechanic to the existing Raid and they only have to adjust the one mechanic…

And where did I insult anyone in my last post you quoted? I did not and I didn’t make an attack, I asked a simple question you are refusing to answer.

Removing mechanics and tweaking numbers (the inverse of what the challenge motes do – and they have done both in the past) would likely be enough to create the story experience we are discussing here, so i challenge the statement that they would take significantly more resources.

And only because you asked – as to the personal attack, when you make comments like this one -

Sly.9518:

But that doesn’t matter to you if Raiders have to receive slower content pace as long as your wants are met right?

That is most definitely a personal attack. You are trying to deflect the argument to me being irrational or having some nefarious agenda – rather than debate the points directly. As an example, it would be just as easy for me to say that your motivations are selfish because you dont want anyone else to enjoy the raid content unless they choose to play the way you do (and that is just an example – I don’t actually believe it to be true). The point is, debate the points – not the people making them – and we can have an actual civil discussion.

Sly.9518:

Blaeys.3102:

Sly.9518:

And by your logic because one player that doesn’t like any form of pvp gets next to no value since this game has 2 pvp gamemodes out of the 3 gamemodes provided…. so they should remove pvp completely form the game since they don’t get to enjoy the entirety of the game. Smh

And by the same logic, the existence of a story mode would not invalidate the purpose of the harder mode. They can coexist without diluting either experience (if anything, it would free them up to make the hard mode actually hard).

Not really they can make them hard now like they already are and focus on their Target audiences needs and not cater to pleasing people not intended as the target audience for such a small niche content. But what you want would come to a detriment to the Raid development schedule by forcing more resources and development time on small niche content that has no repercussions on the main Gw2 story arc progression. But that doesn’t matter to you if Raiders have to receive slower content pace as long as your wants are met right?

Again, be wary of personal insults and attacks. Let’s discuss the topics – not the people making them.

As I stated further in my response above, I don’t see the developer resource issue as a significant one because of the inclusion of challenge motes in the last wing. I think they could transition those resources to story motes of some kind and address the issue with little to no additional effort.

Sly.9518:

And by your logic because one player that doesn’t like any form of pvp gets next to no value since this game has 2 pvp gamemodes out of the 3 gamemodes provided…. so they should remove pvp completely form the game since they don’t get to enjoy the entirety of the game. Smh

And by the same logic, the existence of a story mode would not invalidate the purpose of the harder mode. They can coexist without diluting either experience (if anything, it would free them up to make the hard mode actually hard).

Feanor.2358:

Time and effort they could have been using for creating new content instead of depriving existing content of the very reason it was created in the first place.

The reason it was created (challenge) would still exist parallel to the story mode, so no one would be deprived of anything (again, I think they could actually make it harder with the story mode addressing accessibility).

The argument about developer resources is worth discussion, but, again, I think it probably isn’t as great an issue as people think. I believe they could probably develop this concept with little to no more effort than they put into the challenge motes used in wing 4. It would be a better use of the time (most people didnt like the inclusion of challenge motes anyway) and address the issue elegantly.

Yes, a story mode is definitely needed.

It’s good to see that this topic is naturally reoccurring on the forums as more players begin to realize this. Hopefully the developers are watching.

What isn’t good to see is the troll brigade that also reoccurs every time someone decides to express this opinion. Once again, we have the same people lurking in the shadows ready to pounce on anyone expressing this concern with personal attacks like “get good”, “It’s already easy enough – you must suck”, “you’re lying about XYZ”, “experienced groups can do it with 8 people, so anyone that cant with 10 is bad at the game”, etc. I know, because I’ve had every one of these (and many more – including, unbelievably, death threats) levied at me for choosing to have this conversation as well.

For the most part, it’s better to just ignore people like that. The discussion needs to continue and we need people like the OP to feel comfortable expressing this opinion.

A story mode is warranted (and no, wing 4 is not an example of one) – both for accessibility and the ongoing health of all forms of raiding.

If you can debate for or against that, you should feel free to do so. If you only know how to insult the actual posters making the points, you aren’t helping anyone on any side of the issue.

Our real hope now is that Anet is paying attention to both posts like this and the negative publicity they have received recently because of this topic.

Raids in the form they have implemented them have had negative repercussions on the game, imo. They have created a shift the culture and feel of the game in ways that leave some – including many day one and GW1 fans – feeling disenfranchised and concerned about future direction.

Anet has a history of paying attention to such things, and adapting content when necessary. I think this is definitely one of those times – and there are real changes they need to make in order to get this game back on the right track.

Crinn.7864:

Djinn.9245:

If you enjoy optimization and don’t feel that you obsess over stats, then clearly those comments are NOT about you.

You do realize that most of the people complaining lump anyone who knows anything about buildcrafting as <insert passive-aggressive label>

I think people need to stop assuming that every opinion posted is some kind of veiled insult.

People enjoy the game in many different ways – and enjoying the math of the game doesn’t make anyone less of a player or some evil villain, just as enjoying the flavor and diversity of the game doesn’t make someone less important or skilled.

My point is – given that we have these divergent groups, a cornerstone of the endgame cannot be “set aside” for the sole enjoyment of one with no consideration of the others. That is where the animosity and nastiness begins and breeds – and that is something the developers can do something about.

Ashen.2907:

Blaeys.3102:

And – to clarify – by developed for a range of playstyles, I dont mean mode A for this player and mode B for an entirely different player. That is segmentation and fractures the community.

Have to disagree, vehemently, with this. I wouldn’t want to see more open world PvE added to PvP in order to ensure that open world PvE players’ playstyle is accommodated in PvP. Nor would I want to see Raid bosses added to PvP, nor PvP added to Dungeons, Raids, or open world PvE content. Diluting what makes each type of content appeal to its adherents, what makes it what it is, just ensures, in my opinion, that it is a watered down, unsatisfying version of that content type.

Faulty comparison – and I think you know that.

Of course, Im not talking about blurring the lines between PVE and PVP. There are common sense factors that make that illogical. I didnt think it would be necessary to actually say that.

Within PVE, however, there is a need for cohesion – because of story, community and making sure everything fits together. Yes, challenging content can – and should – be part of the equation, but not at the price of exclusion. There is one – and only one – area of PVE where that is currently the case (because of an imbalanced meta and a reluctance to adapt). That is raids.

And because that part of the game is held up as key selling point of end game – in terms of both content and unique reward – it has become the focal point for division, both among current players and how the game is perceived by potential customers.