Guild Wars 2

Absurdo.8309:

Blaeys.3102:

Dondarrion.2748:

Maybe they could have an option to enter the raid as a 10-man group who initiate a “carebear” mote to make it a story-focused raid.

“carebear” (jokingly called such, meant as polar opposite to “challenge” – so “casual” or “safe”) mote should then make all monsters no stronger than what you find in open world zones. I.e. leave all encounters in, but make all monsters/bosses “elite” lvl 82/83 at best. The upside is everyone can still practice fun encounters and still overcome a slight challenge to get to experience the story.
The rewards should also be adjusted accordingly, i.e. in “carebear” mode, you get none of the exclusive raid rewards or achievement items. Bosses drop some champion boxes with rare/exotics as best possible outcome.

How would people like that? (and don’t get too caught up on my naming of the mode)

Call them “story motes” or “training motes,” and I still think they would be the best solution. Instead of number tweaking, however, I think it would be more interesting if they did something else, such as adding in NPCs that healed, did damage or helped cc (or any combination, depending on what makes sense based on the fight).

First, they would allow for implementation of accessibility tools without full-scale raid revamps. They can be used only on the fights where they are needed. So, for example, in the current raid, they wouldn’t need to be implemented on the trio or escort.

Second, they allow for design flexibility. Instead of story motes on escort, for example, they could implement a challenge mote that buffed the final miniboss, gave the adds on the towers much stronger knockbacks and made the wargs immune to all ccs.

Next, they would give all players control over the raid experience and reward levels they desired. If your hardcore group just hates fighting the Vale Guardian for some reason, they could use the story mote there and power through it quicker to get to Gorseval. The same mechanic would allow beginner groups better access to easier fights – like trio – deeper into the raid.

Finally, it would allow Arenanet to implement this kind of accessibility at their own pace. They could release a raid as designed and, during the following months, implement the story and challenge motes incrementally, adding both new people to the raid scene and advanced challenges for harder core raiders.

There is precedent for this kind of system in the game. I don’t think it would be as time consuming to implement as a wholescale redo of a raid would. It would address both accessibility and ongoing challenge issues. It seems like a win-win to me.

The only precedence for this kind of system is infantile mode.

Adding unique mechanics seems like more work than adjusting numbers.

I don’t see any functional difference in terms of mote versus mode.

The easier, by far, solution to access any boss in the raid is to have the bosses be selectable (perhaps only to players with a cleared instance).

Easy mode raids will never be a win-win for raiders if it slows down raid development or makes it harder to find a group

---

Finally, I think we’ve reached the point where this discussion is actually detrimental to those that want to experience the story.

Bobby said that different modes are not currently on the table. By constantly harping on easy mode, you drown possible discussions on solutions they’ll actually implement.

Of course there is precedent. They have used the mote system to add challenge to individual fights many times in other areas of the game without implementing the wholescale changes new modes or tiers would likely require. They have even said they are open to adding motes to existing raids – in the recent AMA.

It isn’t a major leap to understand how those same tools could be used to improve accessibility. And it has the added advantages of flexibility and incremental implemention, lessening the impact on developer resources.

Keep in mind that whatever they do has to give the player the experience of being the hero in the story (gameplay of some kind), or it might as well just be a youtube video of a guild clearing the content. Any real solution that provides that accessibility will take developer resources. There is no way around that. I think the mote idea, which allows pinpoint rather than wholescale alterations, would have the smallest impact on those resources.

Dondarrion.2748:

Maybe they could have an option to enter the raid as a 10-man group who initiate a “carebear” mote to make it a story-focused raid.

“carebear” (jokingly called such, meant as polar opposite to “challenge” – so “casual” or “safe”) mote should then make all monsters no stronger than what you find in open world zones. I.e. leave all encounters in, but make all monsters/bosses “elite” lvl 82/83 at best. The upside is everyone can still practice fun encounters and still overcome a slight challenge to get to experience the story.
The rewards should also be adjusted accordingly, i.e. in “carebear” mode, you get none of the exclusive raid rewards or achievement items. Bosses drop some champion boxes with rare/exotics as best possible outcome.

How would people like that? (and don’t get too caught up on my naming of the mode)

Call them “story motes” or “training motes,” and I still think they would be the best solution. Instead of number tweaking, however, I think it would be more interesting if they did something else, such as adding in NPCs that healed, did damage or helped cc (or any combination, depending on what makes sense based on the fight).

less Intensive Implementation
First, they would allow for implementation of accessibility tools without full-scale raid revamps. They could be used only on the fights where they are needed. So, for example, in the current raid, they wouldn’t need to be implemented on the trio or escort. I suspect they could be implemented with minimal developer time (but, as always, only ANet can realistically speak to that).

Design Flexibility (including harder content)
Second, they allow for design flexibility. Instead of story motes on escort, for example, they could implement a challenge mote that buffed the final miniboss, gave the adds on the towers much stronger knockbacks and made the wargs immune to all ccs.

Player Better Controls the Experience
Next, they would give all players control over the raid experience and reward levels they desired. If your hardcore group just hates fighting the Vale Guardian for some reason, they could use the story mote there and power through it quicker to get to Gorseval. The same mechanic would allow beginner groups better access to easier fights – like trio – deeper into the raid.

Staggered, Logical Implementation
Finally, it would allow Arenanet to implement this kind of accessibility at their own pace. They could release a raid as designed and, during the following months, implement the story and challenge motes incrementally, adding both new people to the raid scene and advanced challenges for harder core raiders.

There is precedent for this kind of system in the game. I don’t think it would be as time consuming to implement as a wholescale redo of a raid would. It would address both accessibility and ongoing challenge issues. It seems like a win-win to me.

Skolops.2604:

This is an important topic, and it’s important to try to cut through a lot of the misunderstandings and confusion about what a story mode would necessarily mean.

1) It would NOT mean taking away the challenging content.

2) It would NOT mean taking away the notoriety or honor involved with completing the “hard mode” raids, or even in one sense the exclusivity of the story itself. I am a veteran of another AAA MMO which always released the raids in three stages: first a standard mode, then later on a story mode and a nightmare mode.

The standard mode took some skill to complete, so only regular raiders could complete it on release. The story mode came out making it accessible to (mostly) everyone, but when the nightmare came out it was well known that only the best of the best could complete it. In fact, it even created more content and more prestige for this top tier of players, who had to work very hard to beat the nightmare mode.

Nobody was under any illusion that those who beat the story mode had accomplished anything of any real value, much less that they’d done anything comparable to the top tier players.

3) It would NOT necessarily mean earning the raid exclusive rewards. This is, I think, the point that has been most concerning to many. Ultimately, a story mode raid need not offer any of the raid specific rewards. Let it be for the STORY and the story alone.

I really can’t conceive of any reason to reject creating a story mode version of the raids if it’s clear that they are just for the story rather than rewards, prestige, etc.

This is what a lot of us are trying to say.

It isn’t about rewards.

It isn’t about denying or removing challenging content (there needs to be more of that in the game, imo).

It is about offering the experience of raiding and the stories they tell (no matter how minor) to more people.

I respect that the developers originally intended raids to serve one goal and only one goal. I just think that wasn’t the right direction for raids. And there are plenty of people who agree with us on that. I have friends who enjoy playing certain builds/professions, friends who don’t enjoy the minutia of preparing and grinding out raid attempts and friends who may be disabled/older/simply less skilled – all of whom I would really enjoy experiencing this 10-player content with. That is really all I want – to play with all of my friends – not just the small group that is willing to spend the time and attention raids require – all of them. That is what GW2 has always offered the community. I don’t want to see that change.

So, once again and hopefully for the last time – this has NEVER been about removing or hindering challenging content in the game. For me (and many others), it has never been about getting something for little or no effort. It is about wanting to play with friends simply because they are my friends – nothing more.

Swagger.1459:

Blaeys.3102:

Swagger.1459:

Blaeys.3102:

Swagger.1459:

Y’all niggle too much about this topic… These meters have been used in tons of games for many years and everyone has survived, so I’m sure we will be ok too.

And garbage like these meters – and the toxicity they create – are exactly why many left those games to come to GW2.

Seriously? Do you have any factual statistics to back that up? What percentage of the gw2 playerbase is here due to stat gathering tools from other games?

I led 10 and 25 player progression raids in WoW for 6+ years. I used recount extensively, as well as third party combat log programs that parsed and analyzed data down to the second by second action. I even had a paid subscription to use one (cant remember the name of it at the moment).

And I saw how others in the community there used the tools as well – both when I joined other groups and from guildees/friends/mapchat regarding the topic. The hate and toxicity was real. I would have gladly given them up in my raiding if it would have removed them entirely from the game. And, yes – 100% – they and the atmosphere they created were a big part of the reason I (and many guildees with me) left WoW looking for a friendlier MMO experience (which GW2 definitely was).

You and your guildies do not constitute “many”… and that game you referenced still outperforms gw2, even with those meters.

I can only speak from my perspective – same as anyone else on these forums. Maybe the use of the word “many” was presumptive, but I stand behind the opinion.

Phyxius Animus.7356:

Action:
Dumb down content.

Almost no one is asking them to dumb down the content. In fact, almost everyone is making a point to say that anything that is done should be done alongside what currently exists (or something even more challenging).

BobbyStein.2315:

Obtena.7952:

Hold on people … don’t get too excited over what Bobby said there. It was a little vague but you can see a big diversion from anything raid-like in that statement.

They are investigating DIFFERENT METHODS to make the story more ACCESSIBLE. That tells me it’s not raid, as we know it in GW2.

Yeah, people should hold their panic and speculation. I haven’t said anything other than we’re looking at ways to make the story accessible. That could take any number of forms.

;)

And, yes, thank you for clarifying. I think most of us definitely understand that that no decisions have been made or are even in the process of being implemented – just that you are looking at ways to make story accessible. That is exactly why this conversation is important.

The fact that you made a point of letting us know our voices (everyone’s) are at least heard is important and appreciated.

Swagger.1459:

Blaeys.3102:

Swagger.1459:

Y’all niggle too much about this topic… These meters have been used in tons of games for many years and everyone has survived, so I’m sure we will be ok too.

And garbage like these meters – and the toxicity they create – are exactly why many left those games to come to GW2.

Seriously? Do you have any factual statistics to back that up? What percentage of the gw2 playerbase is here due to stat gathering tools from other games?

I led 10 and 25 player progression raids in WoW for 6+ years. I used recount extensively, as well as third party combat log programs that parsed and analyzed data down to the second by second action. I even had a paid subscription to use one (cant remember the name of it at the moment).

And I saw how others in the community there used the tools as well – both when I joined other groups and from guildees/friends/mapchat regarding the topic. The hate and toxicity was real. I would have gladly given them up in my raiding if it would have removed them entirely from the game. And, yes – 100% – they and the atmosphere they created were a big part of the reason I (and many guildees with me) left WoW looking for a friendlier MMO experience (which GW2 definitely was).

Swagger.1459:

Y’all niggle too much about this topic… These meters have been used in tons of games for many years and everyone has survived, so I’m sure we will be ok too.

And garbage like these meters – and the toxicity they create – are exactly why many left those games to come to GW2.

TexZero.7910:

I hope the story mode crowd gets the youtube video experience they are searching for.

It’s clearly not about playing the mode and the story for them, it always comes back around to rewards. It should not reward jack all if its going to exist.

I know this is true of some, but not all.

Personally, I could care less about rewards. I raid currently but have no interest in legendary armor. More importantly, I know that many of the people in my guild currently turned off by raids would love the experience even without the chance at unique skins or legendaries.

My personal opinion is that they should go one of two ways with story mode raids (or whatever they might end up doing) – either give a minimal reward, such as champion boxes and maybe a gold or two – or (and I think this is probably the best option), use them to help people gear up for “real” raids by rewarding a smaller percentage (maybe 50%) of the magnetite rewards and slightly higher than normal chances at vanilla (not unique skinned) ascended boxes.

I am 100% confident that either would be enough for many people wanting to experience lower threshold raids (I know because I would most likely add a third day to my guild’s raiding schedule and have people from the main raid squads take people in for the experience/training/fun/etc).

sophiewhite.3149:

people in raids are using dps meters as we speak. all the top guilds use them. any serious raid guild uses them. and uses them with pugs. tbh the only time ive seen it is when they try to help people get better. basically theres a lot of terrible players being carried by groups constantly. or causing them to fail because they are so bad. but they are good enough you cant tell their rotations are trash. so they go unoticed.

Because the guilds that know how to raid and fairly evaluate performance aren’t the concern. It is those who don’t know how to use tools like this properly that create the toxicity many of us talk about.

And, whether people want to admit it in this thread or not, we all know it would happen. These kind of tools breed toxicity and hatred. Anyone who has played any games where they were widely accepted understands that.

Finally, just because a lot of people are using a tool the developers consider against game rules doesn’t mean that tool should become a part of the game. Think about the precedent that would set.

And yes, anyone caught breaking the user agreement in this way in the game should be punished in some way – regardless of who they are or how big that group is. We’ve seen mass bans or suspensions in other games before – that included popular youtubers, twitch streamers, etc. If anything, seeing it renews faith in the company to know that they enforce rules unilaterally.

Absurdo.8309:

Blaeys.3102:

Absurdo.8309:

I think this is why people hate these discussions … there are very real problems with power reaper, but people become obsessed with bashing raids.

I’m not sure how you expect anet to make hard content, while simultaneously expecting trash builds like bear bow to be successful.

(Pug) raiders don’t want to carry anyone. Use the best build or the snowflake build with people you know. This is no different than pvp.

The actual problem is when the best build is still bad, like with power necro.

Not everyone hates these discussions – and I still think it would be more productive to focus on the conversation more than other players.

The issue is much bigger than just Power Necros – and even if power necros get “fixed,” that systemic issue remains. The gap between top and bottom performers is way too wide. Can that be fixed with simple balancing, and, if so, what is the easiest path to accomplishing that? Personally, I think it requires systemic, rather than localized, solutions (cure the disease and the symptoms dissipate on their own)

And which builds/playstyles should be acceptable and which shouldn’t? What are the defining characteristics of a raiding build/playstyle in the game? Is it okay for a profession to be viable with a condi build, but complete trash with any power build (or vice versa)? Are their utilities that all professions should be able to bring? When does the utility of a profession justify a drop in potential dps?

This isn’t a simple issue and it isn’t going away anytime soon. A systemic (disease rather than symptom focused) solution is needed.

Do you have the same views towards pvp and wvw? If not why not?

If a utility, trait, weapon, or skill is useless in all 3 game modes, it should be fixed.

Easy mode is not a fix because the problem would still exist in the normal raid.

I don’t think it is possible to make these kinds of comparisons with PvP and WvW.

In WvW, balance isn’t really an issue (imo) – unless a profession gets really out of hand in regard to AOE or group cc/lockdowns. That game mode is really a lot more about the macro game – eg, where teams focus their numbers on the map. While builds can make a difference, bringing a less popular build or profession doesn’t have nearly the impact it does elsewhere.

In competitive PvP, profession balance is EXTREMELY important – and there are definite improvements needed there. The comparisons with raids still doesn’t work, however, for two reasons. First, there is no good solution in PvP because, by the nature of the game mode, the developers have to give up a lot of the control to the players. Second, even though they aren’t in the best shape (yet), ladders naturally accomplish this to a degree. Lower ranked players (even those in more casual builds/playstyles) still have access to a compelling pvp experience by not being pitted against the serious GW2 PvPers where possible.

Absurdo.8309:

Blaeys.3102:

Absurdo.8309:

Why can’t you just buy raids with the gold you earn in other activities? That’s functionally the same thing as a reward track.

I know you’re joking, but the truth is that doesn’t work for the same reason that entering a completely cleared instance doesn’t work.

Video game storytelling is about more than the words and the lore. It is about personally experiencing the story – fighting the fights (even if they aren’t hardcore) and being the hero of the story.

Buying the story from someone else or taking a tour after the fact just aren’t fun or interesting for most people.

He is complaining about rewards, not story.

My bad. I will delete my response (and try to read a bit more thoroughly in the future ).

BobbyStein.2315:

First off, I want to say thanks for posting your feedback and kind words. Both mean a lot to us.

We’re investigating different methods to make the story more accessible. I can’t share any details at this time, but wanted to let you know we’re exploring a few potential options internally. As with everything in development, this isn’t a guarantee. I want to set expectations accordingly.

It’s encouraging to know that the discussions are taking place and that ArenaNet is paying attention.

I know this is broken record territory, but please keep in mind that access to story – in video games (which are the pinnacle of interactive storytelling) – means being the hero of the story and not just being read to by an NPC or walked through empty instances after the fact.

I think Maddoctor has a decent recommendation above. In another thread, I brought up the idea of “story motes” that spawned NPCs that helped the group in the fights. I think there are some good ideas out there – and that, if those don’t work, Anet has a history of coming up with good ideas all on their own.

Absurdo.8309:

I think this is why people hate these discussions … there are very real problems with power reaper, but people become obsessed with bashing raids.

I’m not sure how you expect anet to make hard content, while simultaneously expecting trash builds like bear bow to be successful.

(Pug) raiders don’t want to carry anyone. Use the best build or the snowflake build with people you know. This is no different than pvp.

The actual problem is when the best build is still bad, like with power necro.

Not everyone hates these discussions – and I still think it would be more productive to focus on the conversation more than other players.

The issue is much bigger than just Power Necros – and even if power necros get “fixed,” that systemic issue remains. The gap between top and bottom performers is way too wide. Can that be fixed with simple balancing, and, if so, what is the easiest path to accomplishing that? Personally, I think it requires systemic, rather than localized, solutions (cure the disease and the symptoms dissipate on their own)

And which builds/playstyles should be acceptable and which shouldn’t? What are the defining characteristics of a raiding build/playstyle in the game? Is it okay for a profession to be viable with a condi build, but complete trash with any power build (or vice versa)? Are their utilities that all professions should be able to bring? When does the utility of a profession justify a drop in potential dps?

This isn’t a simple issue and it isn’t going away anytime soon. A systemic (disease rather than symptom focused) solution is needed.

Would it make sense to do this somewhere in EOTM?

And, to be clear – even if this has always been an issue (and I don’t believe it was near as bad pre-raids) – that still isn’t a good reason to ignore it now just because they ignored it then.

Rising Dusk.2408:

Why in the world did you turn this around as if it’s a problem with raids? The problem is with class balance, and the fact that not all playstyles are created equally. And no matter what you do, someone can architect a terrible build that helps nothing, does no damage, and dies instantly. Should a group filled with that build be able to beat raids handily? Heavens no, half of the entire purpose and enjoyment of raids is to come together as a group and build a composition with classes and builds to overcome the specific encounter challenges.

Because raids are the sole place (in PVE) where these players do not have a real way to enjoy the game. That is something raids, and the limited model Anet chose to adapt, brought to the game. Ive completed dozens of Aetherpath/Arah/fractals with players of all ilk – including condi mesmers, engineers, even bearbows (played by an elderly guildee who had suffered from a stroke and could only play effectively with one arm).

I’m not saying there shouldn’t be challenging content in the game. In fact, we need more of it. I’m saying the restrictive nature of raiding in the game is something we haven’t had to realistically deal with before – and that it didn’t have to be this way, and that is definitely bad for the game as a whole (at least for many of us that enjoyed the game at launch for what it was).

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Blaeys.3102:

A year and a half ago, the idea of dps meters would have been shot down on the forums pretty much immediately – and rightfully so.

That is the same way I feel about them today. While some would use them productively, the last thing we need is another tool for hateful and toxic players to shame or belittle others – and we all know that is exactly what would happen (because many of us have seen it time and again in other games – and because we can all probably identify at least a few players in GW2 now that would use it exactly that way).

DPS meters can be used for good reasons – but those reasons will never outweigh the potential toxicity they would bring to the game. They need to be kept as far from GW2 as absolutely possible.

With your thought process on this there should be no MMOs or other Multiplayer games because of the potential toxicity will always outweigh the good, Toxicity has been in this game since the earliest inception it hasn’t raised or lowered except for perceived toxicity. Plus people have shot down the use of personal only DPS meters that don’t show anyone else’s numbers because “reasons”…

It’s better to have more tools than not to have enough.

Of course it will always be in these games. I’m saying, don’t provide in game tools that make it considerably worse.

Yes, these tools can be very useful, especially with challenging content – but anyone that has played MMOs for any length of time knows that isn’t how most leaders/players use them. The good simply doesn’t outweigh the bad.

Absurdo.8309:

Blaeys.3102:

Karode.9206:

But I love my Power Reaper…

This one sentence explains the entire problem with raids in GW2 right now.

Playing the profession/build you most enjoyed was okay when the game first came out, but for those players wanting to raid, ArenaNet has adopted a policy of min/max or go away – or, at the very least, min/max or forever be looked down upon by the raid community (because of the huge disparity between professions/builds)

It has been bad for the game. It has brought elitism and nastiness once reserved or a tiny percentage of dungeon/fractal runners front and center in the GW2 endgame.

A game that used to be about just enjoying yourself and creating characters that were just a tiny bit unique is now about copy pasting and conforming to a single accepted playstyle.

And, the worst part is, it isn’t necessary. It is 100% possible to implement challenging content without doing this. For some bizarre reason, the developers have begun moving away from the inclusive and fun-focused philosophy they had in the early game days toward the toxic mess the game is currently becoming.

I know that sounds extreme, but I hate seeing this happen to GW2. What was once this shining unique gem in the market has become another me-too clone-the-player-next-to-you game. And, I think their approach to raids are the single biggest reason for that.

3 years ago: Why won’t groups take my bear bow ranger? I do a lot of damage away from the group, my bear tanks, and my knock backs keep the enemies away.

But seriously, the fix is to buff power reaper. It’s also underperforming in pvp and wvw.

Except the problem isn’t unique to power reapers. Longbow Rangers are still in horrible shape. When was the last time you saw a power scrapper (or really any engineer), scepter ele, dagger thief, revenant (of pretty much any variety), tank warrior/guardian, etc accepted on regular basis into raids?

Playstyle diversity at end game – a defining feature of GW2 – is a thing of the past.

There are a few things they could do to make it a little better – taking a critical look at things like 5-player boon caps, letting blast finishers trigger more than one field, better autoattack damage consistency, etc. But, even with those things, I don’t think this is a problem that can be solved with better balance. There are just too many factors at play in the GW2 combat system (which in most situations, is a very good thing). But, with the current raiding model, there will always be a core selection of builds/playstyles that WAY over-perform (which the developers then need to balance challenging content around) – meaning pretty much every other playstyle (and the people who enjoy them) will be left out.

I know that doesn’t mean much to most of the hardcore raiders out there, but for more community focused guilds and players, it is starting to become game breaking.

maddoctor.2738:

You must’ve missed the years of Ranger and Necromancer exclusion from all types of instanced content. Exclusion isn’t something new to GW2 unfortunately it’s just that some people forgot all about it

People say this a lot – citing the old dungeon/fractal metas, but it has never been what it is with raids. Even in Arah, Twilight Assault and high level fractals, my guildees playing “less accepted” builds were always able to easily find groups where they were welcome and had a realistic chance of finishing the content. That is most definitely not true with raids – and the GW2 community is suffering for it.

A year and a half ago, the idea of dps meters would have been shot down on the forums pretty much immediately – and rightfully so.

That is the same way I feel about them today. While some would use them productively, the last thing we need is another tool for hateful and toxic players to shame or belittle others – and we all know that is exactly what would happen (because many of us have seen it time and again in other games – and because we can all probably identify at least a few players in GW2 now that would use it exactly that way).

DPS meters can be used for good reasons – but those reasons will never outweigh the potential toxicity they would bring to the game. They need to be kept as far from GW2 as absolutely possible.

Karode.9206:

But I love my Power Reaper…

This one sentence explains the entire problem with raids in GW2 right now.

Playing the profession/build you most enjoyed was okay when the game first came out, but for those players wanting to raid, ArenaNet has adopted a policy of min/max or go away – or, at the very least, min/max or forever be looked down upon by the raid community (because of the huge disparity between professions/builds)

It has been bad for the game. It has brought elitism and nastiness once reserved or a tiny percentage of dungeon/fractal runners front and center in the GW2 endgame.

A game that used to be about just enjoying yourself and creating characters that were just a tiny bit unique is now about copy pasting and conforming to a single accepted playstyle.

And, the worst part is, it isn’t necessary. It is 100% possible to implement challenging content without doing this. For some bizarre reason, the developers have begun moving away from the inclusive and fun-focused philosophy they had in the early game days toward the toxic mess the game is currently becoming.

I know that sounds extreme, but I hate seeing this happen to GW2. What was once this shining unique gem in the market has become another me-too clone-the-player-next-to-you game. And, I think their approach to raids are the single biggest reason for that.

Absurdo.8309:

Blaeys.3102:

Absurdo.8309:

Blaeys.3102:

Absurdo.8309:

I feel like if you want the equivalent of infantile mode for raids, it wouldn’t really help with accessibility. It would be a one and done — people would go in just to see the encounter.

I think this is a false assumption – and, of course, there would still need to be rewards, just not at the same level as the current raid level, and definitely not legendary armor. Maybe something along the lines of half the magnetite and a decent chance at a vanilla ascended drop (which would give new raiders another new way to gear for the real raid encounters as well).

And, again, I don’t think the escort method is a good way to include easier modes. It only waters the raid experience down for everyone. Let the developers design the encounters the way they feel works best – and then implement motes to address accessibility and/or the need for greater challenge on a fight by fight basis.

To expound just a bit more – the more I think about the idea of training motes, the more the idea seems like the right way to go. It would give raids an alternative path forward when their group comp or skill levels don’t quite measure up. A group can still go in and wipe against the regular vale guardian 10 times – but rather than throwing in the towel on the 11 attempt, they can simply activate the training mote for the experience of the fight, to move on to Gorseval (in the situation that their group comp better fits that encounter) or to gain the lesser reward so members can progress their gear a tiny bit before the next raid.

And, it has the added benefit of opening the content to more players. I do believe it would be content people of all skill levels would repeat – just for the fun of it.

This seems a lot of work. You’re asking anet to double their effort on all raids, past and future.

I’d rather have 2 different encounters than the same encounter twice. Similarly, I imagine those who like open world would riot if they had to wait on a hard version of each map.

You can raid. Right now. At an easy difficulty level. No ascended gear required. What more do you want?

I doubt very seriously that adding motes would double the work, so I think that is an unfair assessment. The models, the settings, the voice work and most of the mechanics would remain exactly the same. At best we’re talking about simply tweaking numbers (probably not the way they would go) – or removing/adding simple mechanics/timers/etc.

As an (admittedly untested) example, adding a training mote might be as simple as adding a couple of NPCs to help the players with damage and ccs. That is hardly doubling the work.

And, it’s worth pointing out, that Crystal even talked about the possibility of adding motes to encounters in the recent developer AMA. While she was talking about challenge motes, the concept of a story or training mote would obviously work the same way.

They’ve stated it’s a lot of work. And you’re not just asking for a numbers shave, but balanced rewards, and a difficultly level similar to dungeons.

If it was so easy, why do fractals take forever to come out?

I think the fractal delay is simply a result of the same issues that caused the LS delays. I fully expect a much quicker turn around on them moving forward – something were already starting to see. I don’t think you can compare that with raids.

And, yes, it will take work. I think, however, with a little creativity (possibly the mote idea – which, again, they have said they are thinking of using anyway on some fights), the effort wont be near as heavy as people think – and would definitely be worth the reward.

Absurdo.8309:

Blaeys.3102:

Absurdo.8309:

I feel like if you want the equivalent of infantile mode for raids, it wouldn’t really help with accessibility. It would be a one and done — people would go in just to see the encounter.

I think this is a false assumption – and, of course, there would still need to be rewards, just not at the same level as the current raid level, and definitely not legendary armor. Maybe something along the lines of half the magnetite and a decent chance at a vanilla ascended drop (which would give new raiders another new way to gear for the real raid encounters as well).

And, again, I don’t think the escort method is a good way to include easier modes. It only waters the raid experience down for everyone. Let the developers design the encounters the way they feel works best – and then implement motes to address accessibility and/or the need for greater challenge on a fight by fight basis.

To expound just a bit more – the more I think about the idea of training motes, the more the idea seems like the right way to go. It would give raids an alternative path forward when their group comp or skill levels don’t quite measure up. A group can still go in and wipe against the regular vale guardian 10 times – but rather than throwing in the towel on the 11 attempt, they can simply activate the training mote for the experience of the fight, to move on to Gorseval (in the situation that their group comp better fits that encounter) or to gain the lesser reward so members can progress their gear a tiny bit before the next raid.

And, it has the added benefit of opening the content to more players. I do believe it would be content people of all skill levels would repeat – just for the fun of it.

This seems a lot of work. You’re asking anet to double their effort on all raids, past and future.

I’d rather have 2 different encounters than the same encounter twice. Similarly, I imagine those who like open world would riot if they had to wait on a hard version of each map.

You can raid. Right now. At an easy difficulty level. No ascended gear required. What more do you want?

I doubt very seriously that adding motes would double the work, so I think that is an unfair assessment. The models, the settings, the voice work and most of the mechanics would remain exactly the same. At best we’re talking about simply tweaking numbers (probably not the way they would go) – or removing/adding simple mechanics/timers/etc.

As an (admittedly untested) example, adding a training mote might be as simple as adding a couple of NPCs to help the players with damage and ccs. That is hardly doubling the work.

And, it’s worth pointing out, that Crystal even talked about the possibility of adding motes to encounters in the recent developer AMA. While she was talking about challenge motes, the concept of a story or training mote would obviously work the same way.

Absurdo.8309:

Blaeys.3102:

Absurdo.8309:

Cheers to those who want hardcore world bosses / guild missions, but I find they’re usually an exercise in organization, not skill.

That is true of pretty much any organized group content in MMOs, from dungeons to raids on through to these events. Organization/coordination is always the hardest part of the game.

But it is beside the point. Organized guilds need more to do in larger groups. Guild missions were an amazing addition to the game – one that brought people together to have fun, regardless of the difficulty or group size. With the last guild mission added more than 3 years ago, that has been woefully missing from GW2.

It’s fair to ask for it. Perhaps they could add some missions to the HOT maps.

I just think that the hardcore world bosses — that is, triple trouble and pre-nerf gerent — were a failure because the large organization required became prohibitive for most groups.

I agree with this assessment – and even remember Colin responding to a question on a live broadcast just before launch saying he looked forward to what the guild missions team could do on the new HOT maps (to be fair, it was easy to remember since I was the one that asked the question ).

Somewhere between then and now, unfortunately, they have let guild missions fall between the cracks, despite the new infrastructure and system they built specifically to make it easier to add new ones. That is very disappointing.

Absurdo.8309:

I feel like if you want the equivalent of infantile mode for raids, it wouldn’t really help with accessibility. It would be a one and done — people would go in just to see the encounter.

I think this is a false assumption – and, of course, there would still need to be rewards, just not at the same level as the current raid level, and definitely not legendary armor. Maybe something along the lines of half the magnetite and a decent chance at a vanilla ascended drop (which would give new raiders another new way to gear for the real raid encounters as well).

And, again, I don’t think the escort method is a good way to include easier modes. It only waters the raid experience down for everyone. Let the developers design the encounters the way they feel works best – and then implement motes to address accessibility and/or the need for greater challenge on a fight by fight basis.

To expound just a bit more – the more I think about the idea of training motes, the more the idea seems like the right way to go. It would give raids an alternative path forward when their group comp or skill levels don’t quite measure up. A group can still go in and wipe against the regular vale guardian 10 times – but rather than throwing in the towel on the 11 attempt, they can simply activate the training mote for the experience of the fight, to move on to Gorseval (in the situation that their group comp better fits that encounter) or to gain the lesser reward so members can progress their gear a tiny bit before the next raid.

And, it has the added benefit of opening the content to more players. I do believe it would be content people of all skill levels would repeat – just for the fun of it. I know my guild would probably add a third night of raiding to our schedule – just dedicated to taking 3-4 additional groups (and dozens of players) in to just enjoy the content and potentially grab some ascended gear every week.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Astralporing.1957:

maddoctor.2738:

The question still stands, how is adding the same rewards on other types of content going to increase raid accessibility?

Adding other avenues to get rewards is going to increase reward accessibility (as well as cut down on possibility that players after those rewards will end up disliking the game due to having to farm them in the content they strongly dislike). Raid accessibility on the other hand would be increased by easy mode.

Sykper.6583:

Your system has literally been discussed for over a year why it is not a better system.

And yet after that year we still don’t have any answer on this. Can it be because the assumption made in that question might be untrue?

Sykper.6583:

It is never a good thing to take away incentives from doing any content by placing them in an easier method to acquire them.

Only if said incentives are not used to push people toward content they do not like.

Easier Raids will make them not Raids, since the intent/design/concept/implementation of raids in Gw2 is to be the Hardest PvE content there is, so easier mode will make them not Raids which will not increase raid accessibility, but having introductory encounters at the beginning of each Raid wing would increase raid accessibility with out diminishing what raids are and would give a very solid stepping stone into Raid content and they can attempt the higher difficulty encounters once they feel confident enough, good Thing Anet is looking to implement that solution.

And you mean like all the incentives forcing players to do Open World Pve to acquire the majority of valuable items in game that can’t be had in any other content? It seems like you only care about incentives not forcing people into content when it is behind something with a little difficulty, I have yet to see you or others advocate to get all Legendary Incentives implemented in all game modes, only that you want them easily acccesible to you in easy Pve gamemodes.

To be fair, a lot of people on many different sides of this discussion will agree that the harder modes need to have better reward. It has been discussed many times – and I think it is important to the game that greater effort=greater reward.

The issue is accessibility – something that even Anet said they are concerned about and looking into. I don’t think that can be accomplished by simply mixing easier and harder fights into the same raid. All that will accomplish is to water down raids to the point where no one really enjoys them.

The mote system – which would also scale reward – seems like the ideal solution. Let Anet design the fights with complete freedom – focusing on what makes sense for the raid narrative and flow. Then use challenge or story (or whatever you want to call them) motes (or even both) to offer that fight experience to wider audiences. That creates a flexible system than can grow over time – creating a deeper experience as people learn the fights – while still offering accessibility and training platforms for beginner or less hardcore raiders.

Absurdo.8309:

Cheers to those who want hardcore world bosses / guild missions, but I find they’re usually an exercise in organization, not skill.

That is true of pretty much any organized group content in MMOs, from dungeons to raids on through to these events. Organization/coordination is always the hardest part of the game.

But it is beside the point. Organized guilds need more to do in larger groups. Guild missions were an amazing addition to the game – one that brought people together to have fun, regardless of the difficulty or group size. With the last guild mission added more than 3 years ago, that has been woefully missing from GW2.

For those talking about hardcore vs easy, keep in mind that guild missions come in three flavors – easy, medium and hard. While that is solely defined by timers right now, it could be much more – mechanics, adds, timers again, etc. The infrastructure is in place to offer this kind of content for guilds that are looking for more to do in organized groups of more than 10 people (or more than 5 depending on your guild size).

It is an audience that Anet desperately needs to pay attention to again.

Dinosaurs.8674:

I too miss hardcore world bosses. I really wish there were more events that required coordination of a large number of players, similar to triple trouble

• Event mechanics – not just hp – scale based on number of players. So for example, on TT you don’t need 20 harpoons if there aren’t 20 players. This would make these world bosses doable even with smaller numbers of players. Of course, this also means that bosses might simply be unable to be completed if a large number of players stand around and do nothing. I don’t think this is an issue though – you see people do that on karka and teq but not TT because there is no loot to be gained from doing it at TT.
• Guilds can spawn a “hard mode” of hardcore world bosses. I don’t think there is any need for these to be instanced.

I’m not under any illusion that any of these things will happen to existing world bosses, but I really hope that going forward anet will make more open world content that both requires a large number of players and has challenging mechanics and coordination requirements.

Ranael.6423:

It saddens me every time I do the champ Karka in Ember Bay that the encounter is a bit tougher and longer than the Karka Queen for which the real difficulty is to run fast enough so that she is still alive when I reach her…..

I too remember being horribly disappointed by the karka queen boss fight. “Hardcore” huh?

This times 1000.

And if they could incorporate the guild mission system – with commensurate rewards for the guild hall – that would be even better.

- Marionette (open world)
- Breachmaker (would need to be instanced, most likely but with a portal in existing LA)
- Ancient Karka (open world)
- Scarlett Watchwork Zone Invasions (open world)

It could even work with things like Dragon Stand/Chak Gerant/Tarir Invasion/Orrian Temples/ All world bosses/ the events added to old maps between LS Season 3 releases (the anomalies, the bandit bounties, etc), select large scale DEs (such as the ones added during LS Season 2 – even all the way down to simple centaur defense event chains as “easy” missions) – if an organized guild showed up during off times and wanted to start up a map.

There is a pretty big gap in the game design right now in terms of content for organized groups larger than 10 people. Guild missions used to fill it nicely, but the last one of those we saw was more than 3 years ago.

This is, by far, my biggest disappointment with the game today. After 3+ years, guild missions could have been so much more than they currently are.

The issue is simply that group damage per second is the ONLY measure of success in the current raid model – and that is unlikely to ever change.

Every profession can stay alive fairly easily (and kinda has to for the group to be successful) – so the fact that necros have more survivability is completely irrevelant in this game mode.

As long as professions like necros, engineers, revenants, etc do not increase the average damage output of the group (via either their own damage or group buffs), then they will always be considerably less valued than warriors, chronomancers, druids, elementalists who do up group damage.

The raid meta model isn’t the only makeup that can down raids (obviously), but the massive difference between its potential damage and that of lower performing group comps/playstyles/builds/etc has raids in a pretty bad place right now, imo.

maddoctor.2738:

Blaeys.3102:

Like it or not, the conversation about adding greater accessibility will naturally reoccur – both in game and on the forums – as people become more disillusioned with the current raid model in GW2.

Well the devs said they are having internal talks about raid accessibility so it’s obviously something they are working on. The thing is, being so stack on raid tiers is missing the big picture, there are a LOT of suggestions even on this thread on how to make raids more accessible and they are all being swept away by the “discussion” about tiers.

The devs themselves said that tiers aren’t happening, so discussing other ways of increasing raid accessibility is a much more productive discussion.

I agree that we probably do get caught up on the word “tiers” and its implications.

One thing that developers did talk about – in the recent AMA – was adding challenge motes to raids to offer a deeper experience – with potential accompanying rewards. I do think that same mechanic (which they are open to using) could be a fairly elegant solution across the board. Challenge motes to up difficulty and “training” or “story” motes to address accessibility.

And I agree accessibility is a bigger discussion than just tiers. Anything we can do to realistically make raids more accessible and open to more players – especially as it concerns alleviating the huge disparity between builds/professions/playstyles – is a welcome topic imo. Again, this isn’t a black and white topic (there really is no need for the “us vs them” discussion at all). It is nuanced – with many different perspectives and points for discussion.

Absurdo.8309:

Hmm … wow.

So I’ll just note that:
- I’m responding to suggestions actually put forth in this thread.
- I put forth constructive solutions for people looking to get into raids.

Seems counter productive to address anything else. I’m also unaware of any new input from anything in this thread in a long while. I’m happy to be wrong on this count.

Looking back at my comments, I worry that they may have been a little more critical of you personally than I intended. I think the “sickening” comment stepped over a line for me.

What I want to get across – to many people – is that we aren’t mortal enemies. We are just people who happen to disagree on a few points (and probably agree on others). Let’s (all – me included) stop trying to make this an “us vs them” discussion. Those kind of conversations don’t go anywhere productive.

Disagree and debate the points being made (which you can do, and have done, eloquently at times) and not with people making them (or groups of people). That is when people tune out, threads get closed and long standing arguments ensue.

Hypairion.9210:

@Blaeys
You know that this topic about accessibility is polluted by people winning about wanting raids rewards in easy mode…i would like having a conversation here, but some people have their own agenda and don’t care at all about raid accessibility, as long as they can have raid rewards..

@Absurdo is right about accessibility, even if I think the fact that some professions are not wanting now ( mostly in pug) doesn’t help either going into raids.

I agree that the reward conversation is a non starter. This needs to be about accessibility. Greater effort/difficulty should most definitely garner greater rewards. That is something Anet has always stuck to since the very beginning (story vs explorable dungeon rewards, achievement rewards such as Liadri title, special mini in Aetherpath, etc). There is no basis for people to expect anything different with raids (and, if it were up to me – prestigious rewards throughout the game would be MUCH harder to get).

The problem with Absurdo’s responses (and the reason I try not to respond to him when possible) is that he (and a few others – on multiple sides of the conversation) insists on lumping everyone into two big piles and making this a SIDE A vs SIDE B discussion, when their are definitely more than two sides. Then, he (and others) takes it too far by hurling insults and names at the people he disagrees with (his “sickening” comment above is a good example – he even once said a guild was “bad” because they didn’t offer players a raiding experience – and these are 2 of many examples of what I consider unproductive conversations).

You (Hyperion) and I, for instance, agree on some things and disagree on others – but, most importantly, we understand that the answer isn’t to shut the conversation down – it’s to debate civilly and respect others even as we disagree.

My point in my response earlier this morning was to illustrate that, no matter what, this topic isn’t going away anytime soon. I even respect – and agree with him – that the raid tournament was well received – but it really doesn’t have anything to do with the point I was trying to make. I definitely do not think challenge should be removed from raiding in any way whatsoever (in fact, more is needed). The accessibility discussion I want to have is solely about adding to the raiding experience – not taking away from it.

Like it or not, the conversation about adding greater accessibility will naturally reoccur – both in game and on the forums – as people become more disillusioned with the current raid model in GW2. There has to be a compromise – a solution that works for a greater number of players. That is why this conversation is important – and why we need to – as a general rule – disregard (even outright ignore in some cases) the “us vs them” posts that continually crop up throughout these discussions.

Taco doesn’t offer any of the more toxic tools from WoW raiding addons, such as dps meters, the ability to look at other people’s builds/gear or flashing warnings about raid boss mechanics.

Mainly it just adds markers to the map and provides timers for world bosses. It actually strikes a nice balance.

It is worth nothing that, since Saturday (of a holiday weekend in the states), there have been at least 4 new threads – by what appears to be at least 4 separate people who have not been part of the discussion to date – appear across the various subforums expressing concern about the accessibility of raiding, the disparity between professions/builds in raids and the negative impacts those elements are having on the game.

And, in almost every thread, the same 2-3 people advocating against tiered difficulty are doing everything they can to shut the conversation down. It is telling that, in the face of that kind of criticism, we still see so many expressing this concern.

Without a doubt, these kinds of concerns are going to continue to crop up and will most likely only become more prevalent (both in game and on the forums) – especially as new raids are introduced to the game and the gap between experienced and beginner raiders grows wider and wider.

People aren’t whining. They aren’t making things up. There is a legitimate desire for tiered difficulty in the game.

There has been a good deal of ongoing discussion around this topic. I would strongly recommend posting these kinds of comments in the larger thread, located at

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/A-Suggestion-For-Raids/page/10#post6414660

And be prepared – there is a lot of passion in the community regarding this topic. Do not let anyone browbeat you into passive acceptance of the status quo if you find the status quo lacking (and people will try). There are a good number of players who see a significant need for tiered difficulty.

And, if a mod sees this, this thread should definitely be merged with the one linked above.

ButterPeanut.9746:

Ohoni.6057:

I would be okay with that so long as the resources came from the ANET teams matches the intended audience for the easy mode, the more casual audience. If they were to take people from the LS3 team and have them work on easy mode raids that could work. Raid team keeps up status quo of content pacing and easy mode raids are made at the expense of LS3. Only ANET knows what kind of expense that would be.

And again, we have no idea how much time this would take, which developers would be needed, or what projects it would keep them from doing. That’s not our job. Our job is to make the case for features we want to see, it’s their job to figure out how to manage that process, and whether it’s worth the associated costs.

Our job is to play or not play the game. Everything else is equally not our job, it is a privilege. If you can argue for features, I can argue what content I would be willing to slow down pacing in order to implement said feature.

If an easy mode raid had to be put in the game and it were to take a significant time investment (which we cannot confirm or deny unless you work for ANET), then I personally would only be okay with it if it came at the expense the development most similarly affiliated with the intended audience…LS3. I’d rather a 3month delay in LS3 for easy mode raid than a 1week delay of the next raid wing

From a community standpoint, that hypothetical 3 month delay for living story would have a significantly greater negative impact on the game and players than the hypothetical 1 week delay in releasing a new wing.

And here is the real question. Accessibility is an issue they have already acknowledged they care about. They are already talking about integrating easier bosses in with the harder ones to ease new raiders into the content/provide greater accessibility. The comparison you should be thinking about (hypothetical timelines here – just as in your example) is would you want 4 hardcore raid bosses every 4 months with “story motes” for tiered difficulty built in, or would you rather have 2 hardcore bosses and 2 watered-down bosses every 3 months (again, numbers are purely hypothetical)?

I have no issue whatsoever with Legendary Armor acquisition being restricted (because, by the time you make one set, chances are you could have made dozens of ascended sets for less), but as far as being able to stat swap, there is definitely utility outside of raids – specifically moving between PVE and WvW (but again, it really is a non issue, imo).

Absurdo.8309:

And variation had largely been the modus operandi of guild wars 2. Maps range from queensdale to ruins of orr. Dungeons from COF to Arah. Jumping puzzles from the easy ones to not so secret and the new volcano one. HOT maps from verdant brink to dragon stand. Fractals from duo to nightmare. And raids from trio to matthias.

Variation is more content for everyone.

Using the logic you do (comparing fractals to fractals, JPs to JPs, etc), they would need to make an entire raid that is easy mode – to offset those that are harder – which would double the time between challenging raids.

I do not think that is a good solution.

The challenge mote/training mote concept allows for difficulty variation with (imo) minimal effort (definitely less effort than designing entire raids for one group or the other) while keeping the spirit of the originally designed encounter intact.

They have already expressed a willingness to consider challenge motes. Extending that process to create greater accessibility through story motes (or whatever you wanted to call them) seems like a very valid option – and a good way to put this issue to rest.

Absurdo.8309

Again, the raid developers said raids are not set up to handle multiple difficulty modes, like fractals. It’s not just tweaking numbers, despite how easy you claim it is.

And, I would not be content if raids had the same release schedule as fractals. Two versus nine encounters per year.

Again, would you rather have escort and xera, or two versions of xera? The raid developers have adopted the former (and in my opinion better) philosophy.

Which is why I listed tweaking numbers as only one option. It might have been better if I hadn’t added any examples, as I’m sure the developers would come up with a better method than I ever could.

And the developers themselves were just yesterday on Reddit talking about the possibility of adding in challenge motes – which are basically the same as tiered difficulties. Logic dictates that the process could be used to develop a story or training experience using that same methodology.

And to your question – of course it makes more sense to offer multiple versions of Xera. I don’t know why anyone would think otherwise. The idea is to open the entire experience to more people. The half and half approach only serves to give everyone less compelling content.

As an example, using motes, they could go back and make escort more difficult with a challenge mote (possibly adding jade construct minibosses on the turret platforms and giving the boss at the end proper raid hardcore mechanics, as an example) while simultaneously making Xera more accessible via a training mote.

That just makes sense.

Also – Ive been trying to work on cutting back on the back and forth with other players, and to avoid any questions directed at specific people rather than discussing the issue – which is why I tend to not respond to you replies. You and I have a tendency to get trapped in continuous circles of response, counter, response, etc. to the point it drowns out other people. I think that is something we can all work on a little to keep the conversation less cluttered and moving in a productive direction.

Linken.6345:

Yea we need dechallenge motes in raids already, anet have showed they can do the opposite with fractals.

Time to twist it around in raids.

This would probably be the easiest way to accomplish what we are talking about here – and they did talk about the possibility of adding challenge motes in the recent Reddit AMA. That isn’t a far leap away from a “training” or “story” mote (which would probably do WAY more to get more people into raiding than traditional challenge motes).

As far as actual functionality, it could be as simple as lowering health/damage output, tempering/removing mechanics or something like what maddoctor recommends in another thread – https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/A-Plea-for-a-Raid-Story-Mode/first#post6406465.

As far as the developer resource issue, if the resources exist to create challenge motes as described in the reddit response – given the outcry for some kind of tiered difficulty, the implementation of de-challenge motes (or whatever they want to call them) seems like a more logical use of their time (and, of course, ideally, both dechallenge and challenge motes would find a place in raids).

Yesterday, multiple groups in my guild did level 25 and level 100-challenge mote versions of the new fractal. The comments coming out of the latter included “that was amazing – it felt like a raid”, “That was frustrating but really fun”, “Oh dang, oh dang, oh dang, the pain, my face, my face, the pain, the pain”, and several others I can’t repeat here.

But more importantly, here is what we learned -

• A tiered system spanning between easy and blistering hard is VERY possible in this game.

• No one doing the level 100- challenge mote thought the experience was less epic or difficult in any way whatsoever because of the existence of the level 25 (a common concern from people in this thread about raids). This proves that the idea that easy mode will somehow diminish the efforts of those doing harder difficulties is completely unfounded.

• I doubt that the developer resources needed to make the different versions was really that significant.

• People doing the lvl 25 (which we took a lot of people in to see) really enjoyed it as well. They found it fun and interesting – and it will likely get many of them actually interested in fractals again. The people doing the lvl 25 didn’t care that they weren’t doing the hardest version. They were just happy to be there

Now, I respect that raids are not fractals – that the underlying system is different, but yesterday proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that they could make and implement such a system for raids in GW2. Anet needs to expend the effort to migrate future raids to a similar platform. It doesn’t need to be 100 levels – it can simply be 2 or 3 tiers instead.

This is needed. It is needed so that Anet can use raids as story telling platforms. It is needed to drive greater interest in raids. It is needed to help alleviate content droughts. It is needed to avoid creating unnecessary rifts and tensions in the community. It is needed to open the fun of raiding to more people. It is needed to accommodate for the SEVERE performance disparity between professions/builds/playstyles. And, yes, it can serve as a training tool.

It is just plain out needed.

I’ll add my voice to this. This fractal is absolutely amazing – and a perfect example of how to do multi-tier content in the game.

Harper.4173:

It IS a waste of dev time.
They have already given you plenty of options:

1. Cleared instance.
2. NPC that catches you up and explains what happened in the raid.

Neither of those options are interesting or fun in any way. Once again, it is about being able to experience the encounters, not have someone else explain it to you.

I do believe there are ways (potentially like the one Mad talks about above) that seem to be fairly simple solutions that would address the issue.

And if it adds fun to the game for more players, it is most definitely not a waste of time.

maddoctor.2738:

I posted a proposal for a story mode in the very first thread about it on these forums, months ago. The idea is centered around the following:

a) No re-balancing or tweaking of boss mechanics
b) No re-balancing or tweaking of rewards
c) Very little development time required
d) Gives access to the full story experience

How do we all the above? I will explain with examples, because that’s the best way of doing it.

The trash mobs before VG are the same as always, no change here is needed. Then the team starts the fight with VG itself. The fight is the exact same as always, only it terminates after the first split (or before the first split, that’s debatable). Basically you remove the later phases of the fight.
At Gorseval, once again the encounter will terminate after the spirit phase, or before the spirit phase (debatable).
KC will terminate after the first burn phase. Xera will terminate before the gliding platform part.
Slothasor is tricky because it’s the same fight for the entire duration, he gets one new attack at 50% and that’s it. I’m not sure about Sloth.
Sabetha is also tricky, following the other examples terminating at Kernan would make the most sense, but then you’d “miss” two champion bosses with their own dialogue.
I don’t think Escort/Trio need any new termination point, and for Escort specifically it wouldn’t make any sense.

Basically you remove later phases from the fights, in a similar way how games like WoW add extra phases in their higher difficulties. If something like this is implemented they could ADD more phases later on to create a hard mode (in the same manner as the easy mode, add a new phase). There is no extra mechanical balancing needed. If doing only the first phase is way too easy, they could make it so you go through 2 phases instead and ignore the third one.

As for rewards they stay the same as if you wiped at the next phase. If you wipe at Phase 2 of Vale Guardian you get some shards for finishing Phase 1, if you win the story phase then you get the same shards. I mean you can already go farm shards by wiping at phase 2 of VG repeatedly, so it wouldn’t make much of a difference anyway. No other rewards, those that depend on killing the boss will require actually killing them going through all the phases.

PS: I’ve been in training runs, and in some pug runs and I’ve never seen a group wipe at the first phase of VG, even when they were newbies with exotic gear.

This is actually a very good idea – and would solve just about any issue I can think of. For Slotahsor and any future single phase encounters, it might be as simple as cutting his health in half, but still considering as having only finished one “phase” when tabulating reward.

Hate that this recommendation has gotten lost in some of the noise the past few months.

And, if a moderators sees this, this thread should be merged into the preexisting one on this topic.

There is a little more to it than just easy versus hard. For me, the bigger issue – and reason we need tiered difficulty in some form, is the disparity between top and bottom performing professions/builds/comps.

To enjoy raids in their current form, you most likely have to change your build and/or exclude friends who play low performing professions. And even that would be okay if there were some way for people who don’t want to make those sacrifices to realistically enjoy raids.

Right now, the difference between a fresh air elementalist or PS Warrior and a hammer scrapper or longbow ranger (or about a dozen other enjoyable playstyles) in terms of raid viability is not 5-10%; it’s probably closer to 75-100%.

And that is unlikely to change anytime soon. The only way to fix it would be to basically make more professions play the same – something that they would have NEVER have even considered a few years ago, btw, because at that time, the focus was on fun and unique gameplay. .

People who are unlucky enough to enjoy the lesser performing professions and builds are essentially locked out of 90% of raid groups right now – and in those they can play in, they significantly reduce the chances of success.

Now, individuals/groups willing to make the changes deserve higher reward. I’m not debating that. But those people who enjoy playing scrappers or axe necros or whatever should have a way to enjoy raids as much as anyone else (even if the reward is lesser).

That to me is the big issue. Yes, it is partly player created, but it is still an issue that isn’t going away anytime soon. And, even if it does go away, it could easily reappear with any balance patch with little to no warning.

I still think there should be tiered difficulty simply because people would enjoy it – it would add fun to the game (something Anet used to care a lot more about, imo) – but the issue I outline above is probably one of the bigger aspects to this issue.

Once again, I would strongly urge Anet developers to take a few minutes and look at the discussions people are having outside of this forum about this topic, such as the community comments on the below:

http://massivelyop.com/2016/11/18/guild-wars-2-addresses-raiding-tiers-and-accessibility/

http://dulfy.net/2016/11/18/gw2-arenanet-on-raid-accessibility-and-tiers/

https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/5dldnt/crystal_reid_about_raid_accesibility_and_tiers/?sort=confidence

As well as some historic/older posts:

http://massivelyop.com/2015/11/17/guild-wars-2-heart-of-thorns-raids-waller-interview/

And, of course, the conversation we tried to have during the CDI -

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/cdi/CDI-Guilds-Raiding/first

Add to this all of the conversations and (mostly negative) reactions related to balance changes. (which, again, I believe will never really be fixed without gutting profession diversity and fun mechanics – the answer has to come from the encounter design side)

The more ArenaNet tries to resist this idea – or, even worse, halfway do it (add a mix of easier and harder encounters to the same raid wing with no thought to order or sequence), the more both existing and potential players looking for a more casual experience will pull away from the game. The primary appeal of GW2 was that it didn’t take itself as seriously as the other AAA MMOs out there.

It was a place where the player and community experience was always center stage. Yes, there was a variety of different content modes, but there was always a way for players of all skill levels to enjoy the content. Even things like Arah explorable and Twilight Arbor were carefully designed to make sure gear or builds didn’t limit chances of success.

A lot of people have brought this up time and again – in the examples I link above and elsewhere. They are often adamant about it – to the point of arguing at times – because that impression of GW2 as the game for everyone – in all areas – has always been important to them – in fact, in cases such as mine (which is hardly unique), it is why they came to GW2 in the first place.

Raids – in the format they are being presented – are starting to move us in a direction many of us don’t want to see the game go – one where select content/fight experiences/stories/etc are reserved for a small subset of players (notice I didn’t link reward – that isn’t what I’m talking about here).

I hate seeing GW2 go down that path. I hate seeing it become another me-too MMO where the focus is less about the community and more about marketing buzzwords. That is why this topic will not – and should not – go away any time soon.

Sykper.6583:

Actually that Blaeys post about implementing the build system from SPvP into raids directly is a different take on accessibility. I don’t really have an argument against it, if I had to guess the only negative aspect, it would be from a game economy standpoint, if you can just get the runes and armor for free, the market will feel it.

But…it does promote bringing the player, there would be more builds and strategies new raiders could try out in their raid to make it work…

I think I am ok with the SPvP gear system for Raiding in place, it removes that excuse from those who say it takes a lot of time to get the build right. Sadly though, even if this were implemented I get the feeling some folks would still complain about it.

Thank you. I know we fundamentally disagree on most of the issues raised here. I appreciate the willingness to look past that for some things we can actually agree on (and I appreciate how hard it can be to do that – I struggle with the same myself).

The problem with my suggestion would actually be two fold – the first and biggest being exactly what you said – the potential impact on the economy. The second would be the inevitable backlash from people who have already invested heavily in raiding gear – which I can definitely relate to (I’m one of the ones that spent hundreds of gold on the sigil of concentration for my chronotank months ago when prices were much higher).

That said, I think the idea still has merit and, even though I would continue to advocate for tiered difficulty for other reasons, I would welcome it as meeting half way – and I think it would fix some of the organizational and balance issues plaguing raids right now.

I really hope ArenaNet is paying attention to how this conversation is playing out in media outside of these forums – including Reddit (including looking at comment upvotes), the comments section of the article on Massively today, the comments section on Dulfy related to this thread, etc.

Sarahfull.4930:

I didn’t do the nightmare tower when it was out. Is there anything I should look out for? Or would it just be better to go to open world and fight the ones still around?

It is highly unlikely that they will keep all of the content from the original. The Tower of Nightmares was essentially a large vertical map – and most of the content was open world style for large groups. Within that, there were a series of 5-person instances where we fought corrupted versions of Pact heroes (Tybalt, etc) and members of Destiny’s Edge (Rytlock, etc). At the very top, there was a short instance where we fought a toxic kraitlike creature. That instance is likely to make up the majority of this fractal – and that is good. The last fight was interesting.

The large non scale bosses were interesting – and there were some pretty challenging mazes that had to be navigated, but I’m not sure how they would translate that to 5 person content.

The big thing will be the toxic krait fight – which I suspect they will update and add to. Not a tremendous amount of story – but interesting nonetheless.

Hypairion.9210:

i guess you and I didn’t read the same thing…It’s just clearly stated by a raid dev team that what you want IS NOT POSSIBLE.

That is not what was said at all. She said it was not part of the original plan for raids. The thing is – plans can change (and is sort of why these kind of conversations are so important – for everyone to advocate why they think they should or shoudnt). In fact, they have commented in the past that raids weren’t planned for when the game came out – and that plan changed. You adapt based on the community. That in no way implies that it isn’t possible (or even that plans have to remain the same forever and always).

To the second point she made – that raids should be the hardest content in the game – I think most people agree with that. That doesn’t mean they cannot be more than that however. We see it clearly in other games – people have talked extensively about how it could happen in GW2.

The point is – yes, it is very much possible. And, while there does seem to be some reticence, even on the part of some developers, the team is at least having the conversations about accessibility and even lesser difficulties. That is promising.

maddoctor.2738:

Blaeys.3102:

The balance issue will never go away (unless the balance team basically guts all professions and makes them play the same – which would be bad).

That’s not true. The reason we have this problem is because before HoT and before the elite specs there were no requirements for actual roles in the game, outside of PVP. In PVP there were always roles, there wasn’t just one bunker, there wasn’t only one roamer. When you used to make a PVP team you didn’t say “I want a D/D Elementalist” but rather “I want a Bunker”. You could get a shoutbow bunker Warrior, a Guardian bunker, the above mentioned D/D Ele Bunker and I’m probably forgetting some bunker choices of the good old times.

Now that we do have roles in PVE it’s up to the balance team to allow multiple builds to have the same role. You are afraid that they will play the same, but I can assure you that all those bunker builds played completely differently although they had the same role. Is it unrealistic to ask for something similar in PVE?

As an aside, I would actually love to see some of the systems they use to balance PvP brought into raids – most specifically, the gear system where everyone is given access to all top tier gear options from the start – using the same interchangeable amulet, rune and sigil system. Take the gearing piece out of the equation completely – giving everyone access to all of it from day one (maybe with a few select unlockables just like we see in current PvP).

That way someone doesn’t spend weeks building a set of Tizlak’s (commander’s) gear only to see balance shift and find themselves needing something completely different (that is just a hypothetical – please don’t fixate on that example). It would also make it easier for them to actually balance raids.

It would definitely go a long way toward solving the “bring the player, not the build” issue.