Guild Wars 2

It makes sense (always has, imo) to extend the experience and get more people involved now. Not only will it justify more dev resources, it will help fill in content droughts and most likely increase the number of hardcore raiders by giving raiders previously reticent a feel for the fun raiding can offer (training and encouraging them to move on to harder content).

Ive always thought there should be more difficulty content throughout the game – with (cosmetic only) rewards to show for it.

One event I actually enjoyed was the time trial test from the LA counsel seat election. I honestly think they could incorporate something like that into open world – waves of ever increasingly difficult enemies that only reset once the player has been pushed back – with prestigious rewards awaiting those that hold out through the end.

Imagine a “defend the gates of arah” that eventually included waves of Giganticus Lupici or a Southsun chain that resulted in the return of the Ancient Karka (now that lag is less of an issue).

I think there are definitely ways to retain the casual feel of the game and still add in eyebleedingly difficult content (with appropriate rewards) – in pretty much every part of the game.

sophiewhite.3149:

people get kicked out of dungeons alot less than something like raids ive learned. if you want to do raids good luck. even the new willing to teach noobies guilds require experience.

Agreed. Raids are where this problem really exists. It really is a shame they chose to design 10 player content as restrictive as they did. Doesn’t really fit well with the rest of the game.

OnizukaBR.8537:

So just explain this to me.
Why people that want another mode, be it training or easy mode, are not clearing W3 scort every week?
Scort is easy, no enrage timer, you can go with literally any build, have top rewards ( chance of ascended and MS and LI ) , you dont need to another encounter before it.. hmm… strange.
If people dont do scort why they would do a easier mode VG with worst rewards for example as if they would make an easier VG it would be like scort tops on difficulty ( if not still a little harder )?
You see people that dont raid dont wanna raid, stop wanting to waste resources on a dead end.

You’re assuming that they are not. I know a few groups that do that raid encounter – and only that encounter – each week.

Also, this is quite a bit off the mark that the OP was trying to make. Practicing/experiencing the escort event has nothing to do with practicing/experiencing Matthias or Slothasor or Gorseval.

Variable difficulty works well in other games (as well as in fractals in this game) – offering what the OP is asking for, while also providing more accessibility to a wider range of players. I think it would work well here too.

If youre deadset against repeating the dungeons for legendary crafting tokens, they are attainable through WvW and PVP reward tracks now (you do still have to do story mode dungeon once).

To the OP’s note, I would second the advice many are giving. There are plenty of friendly guilds out there with people who think like you do. Additionally, if you word the LFG carefully (“lfm for low drama AC paths 1,2,3. not speed running”) you will probably be able to form a pretty good group of pugs.

GW2 is probably the least elitist filled game you will find. You just have to look for those who play the way you do.

This does seem a bit restrictive long term.

Now that they have established a foothold, maybe the pact can set us up an asura gate at the small camp north of the airship.

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

It’s a lot of work to create multiple versions of an instance and it commits ANet to additional future work to make sure they can continue to deliver it after changing traits/skills, AI, etc. I’d rather they focus their limited resources on other aspects of the game.

I think only Anet can speak to the amount of resources it would take. If a base system were implemented to accommodate something like this, it might actually be very little ongoing effort (again, no way to know).

To the OP, obviously I agree with the idea. Variable difficulties work well in other games – and would fit here as well. I do, however, think some minimal reward (even if it were as simple as champion bags) would be needed to encourage continued play and dev resources.

Been happening to me (US East Coast) for the past two weeks as well. 3-5 second skill lag hits about 4-5 times a night. Have never really had the issue before.

A few others in guild reported same during raids last night and WvW the night before.

fishball.7204:

You talk a lot about how the meta constricts playstyles and whatnot but my first VG clear, like many others, was done in a random assortment of exotics/ascended with weird stats like rampagers for the condi classes. Most of us did not have top tier meta builds because there was no meta back then.

We still did it despite that difficulty with our random builds and weird non chrono tank (we used an ele, a DH and a scrapper tank) for our first couple of VG kills.

It is my firm belief that people like you who complain about the meta are just using this as an excuse to not raid. Just like in PvE, PvP has a certain meta with meta builds but I too do not run the builds on metabattle.com. Still got legend just fine all 4 seasons.

Basically it all comes down to attitude. Most of you do not have that attitude to raid and easy mode raids won’t fix that.

I lead raids multiple nights a week, so it is definitely not an excuse to not raid.

I also get the point you are trying to make about the diversity of some pug groups and that more off-meta builds are being included. But, I still posit that, in typical situations and with guilds first starting off in raids, the meta is a little too strong – to the point where non-meta groups and builds are punished a little more than they should be. Again, it is about degrees.

Again, optimal effort should result in optimal reward. At the same time, I would like to see raids be a little less punishing on those groups that start off outside the meta (with the understanding that the reward would definitely not be the same).

As far as whether or not people would play the content, I would point to other sources. Variable difficulty raids in other games have been rather successful, as have fractals (there are LFG groups for almost every fractal tier on an ongoing basis). These kinds of systems work – and I think it is worth giving them a try in raids.

A lot of people try to state why people like me argue so strongly for this, making up a thousand silly reasons. For me, it really is about wanting to experience raids with more diverse groups of my friends/guildees, many of whom are put off by the current raid implementation. I enjoy raiding. I want more of my friends to enjoy it with me, even if they are playing a condi elementalist or healing focused engineer (again, understanding that the rewards would be diminished).

And, thank you for being a productive part of this conversation. I realize this is an emotional topic – but it is definitely one worth discussing.

Unrelated – I really wish people would stop saying I hate raids. I actually love raids.

TexZero.7910:

…I dont even man.

Raids specific goal is to be challenging end game content. By having multiple modes you are giving up any desire for them to be challenging. You are instead choosing to water down the experience in favor of getting more people through the ride instead of creating the best ride you can.

I entirely disagree. Those who want to raid, can and will. It’s been proven to death. Those that don’t for whatever reason they chose don’t. Changing the content to cater to them will only break communities up further. Hence one mode of play is better than 15 modes of play as it consolidates the players in 1 spot.

This is an insincere statement to make, you’re not a gameplay designer and have no idea how long the pipeline would be for toning raids down to a level deemed acceptable to warrant an easy mode, nor can you give us the specifics required to know what the timeline is for a raid created from scratch.

They aren’t taking away any content. This is the most disingenuous statement you could have possibly made. Even more so considering you’re “pro easy mode” stance. Tier 1-3 still exist. T4 has had its difficulty increased and people are complaining that the hard end of fractals is now “too hard”. This is the same problem that will befall raids if they attempt to create a modular environment.

Even though we disagree, thank you for providing rational and respectful feedback on this topic.

I actually agree with some of the statements here. I do believe that the primary goal of raids should always be to provide challenging content. And, I do not believe that developers have deliberately tried to exclude anyone or divert away from other content. I also agree that some of the onus is definitely on the players rather than the devs.

Where our opinions diverge isn’t as black and white as some other posters have tried to make it. It is about degrees.

I don’t want raids to be faceroll easy (one of the reasons I don’t think the boss in BSF is a raid boss). I want variable difficulty primarily to accommodate a greater variety of playstyles.

I feel the current model punishes non meta build players and groups a little too much (not completely locking them out – but enough to matter – again, its about degrees). Even with that, though, I think those that do research the metas and play the game perfectly should have a greater challenge.

Adding lower tiers – with lesser rewards (it could be as low as champion bags – it really isn’t a reward issue, imo) – would open raiding to more playstyles – with the existing tier (or even harder) remaining in place for those seeking that challenge.

Ive said it before, but it really is about degrees. Raids should never be faceroll easy, but they should (imo) be a bit more accommodating for different playstyles, which (again, imo) they currently are not.

I really hate the idea that a player who has enjoyed a particular playstyle for 3.5 years is punished so severely now – unless they change how they play. Again, they don’t deserve the highest level reward unless they do change, but if they are good at their current style (even if that style is rifle engi or condi Mesmer), they should have a realistic (again, about degrees) way to experience raids in a fun environment.

That is all this is really about.

And – I cant say this enough – thank you for being open to having this conversation in a respectful and productive manner.

As a sidenote – I think the best thing we can all do at this point is completely ignore any derogatory comments or insults directed at players rather than actually debating the topic at hand. Let’s continue the productive conversation around the dismissive, trollish attempts to derail.

You can belittle and derail, but most see it for what it is – instead of arguing the actual topic, you, once again, turn to attacking the people posting in an attempt to shut the conversation down. That is usually a sign of people realizing how weak their arguments actually are.

I made the comments about my past raiding activities ONLY after people started saying “you have no idea because you don’t raid.” It was to illustrate that this isn’t just non raiders wanting this. But, in typical fashion, I’m attacked for those comments.

All posts like these do is show the weak nature of your criticisms (resorting to personal attacks YET AGAIN) and illustrate the divisive culture and elitism that raids have actually brought to the game.

Despite the obvious attempt to shame me directly – as well as others you disagree with – this conversation will continue. As Ive said before, Ive seen people attacked, belittled and even receive death threats over this topic. It really is sad that people cant talk rationally about a topic without resorting to this BS.

Satire or not, you cannot compare WvW or any PvP situation to PVE. It simply doesn’t work.

After this, I wont be responding to Absurdo at all in this thread. He has made it clear that his one and only goal is to shut down the conversation in any way he can – resporting (once again) to weak personal attacks. It is unproductive and pathetic.

Absurdo.8309:

Further, most proposed easy modes would divide the
player base, just as open-world and raids divides the player base.

You’ve made this point before. Let’s discuss it for a second.

When you look at it, your statement doesn’t really equate to further division. Saying that tiered difficulties will divide the player base just like it is being divided now because of open world is a zero sum start (eg, there is no further division).

I posit that bringing new people into to raids will result in two groups. The first will be the casuals who just want to have fun in the raid. I say more power to them – more people having fun, the more successful the game is, and the more justification Anet has for investing in more raids. That’s something we all want.

But it is the second group that will have the impact I’m talking about – and the one that moves the needle even further. The group that wants to learn to raid but doesn’t want to beat their head against the wall learning the mechanics. These are the people that will participate in lesser difficulty raids, see how much fun overcoming the challenges are and want to move on to the higher level difficulties (or try to work their way up from bronze to gold in my earlier example). We know these people exist because we see them taking this very path to raiding in other raid focused games.

So, at worse, it’s a zero sum, only not really, because you would still have more people sharing similar experiences (which could still be considered less division). At best, it deepens the interest in raids, justifies more development and encourages more people to put in the work to tackle higher end challenges – giving those that raid (pug or organized) a deeper pool and more opportunities to raid.

And thank you for trying to see this from both sides as we have the discussion. The conversation really is starting to become more productive.

TexZero.7910

1) Multiple difficulties not only undermines the objective goal of raids, but their design. Additionally, they eventually long-term end up segregating communities and causing divisive design goals that limit how complex and challenging mechanics can be due to having to be watered down at the low end.

2) Not with any of the proposed methods in this thread, and none that are ultimately a realistic design choice for any aspect of gameplay.

3) Loaded question with an impossible answer because anyone can tell you, you’re asking for the impossible. If they have to make more, that means more time and resources being spent. So lets not pull the in a vacuum or perfect world scenario questions and stick to the realistic scope. Man power doesn’t come out of thin air and isn’t free.

4) Im all for more 5 man challenging content, fractals have proven they can do this. Unfortunately the same adverse to change and hard content crowd is now complaining over the changes to them as well. Other aspects of play should remain as is. They (Open world and Living story) are intentionally designed for the majority of the population.

Thank you for both the response and the productive tone/answers.

I admit the one question was a bit loaded. I promise I wasn’t trying to bait you into a response. I was trying to determine to what level the objection is more objective ( ) vs emotional. I think you answered that well in your other responses.

I think your answer to the first question really deserves more discussion – among everyone, because I think it probably gets to the heart of why there is so much disagreement around this topic.

You talk about the objective goals of raiding – and their design. While I agree that the objective goal the developers had in mind was solely to provide challenging content, I don’t believe that it should be the only goal. The reason I don’t believe that is because I think there has always been overarching goal that GW2 has tried to attain to – to be more inclusive and community focused than other MMOs. With the introduction of raids, for many people those two goals came into conflict (especially for people like me who lead large fairly casual guilds).

I think raiding could be a part of that bigger picture without disrupting the challenging experience that meets the objective goal you describe. Was this part of the dev’s original plan? Obviously not based on their statements. But, that doesn’t mean they cannot evolve. Again, we have seen this in many other games with raids.

Let’s make raids a real part of the narrative – a real link in the GW2 development chain with the same importance and level of support we see for fractals or living story or WvW. But, to justify that, there has to be greater appeal. They really need to fit more with the implied goal/position of the game itself, which I don’t not currently feel they do. I think they can do that without removing the challenge (which I really want as well, btw – I even think they are probably a bit too easy for top level raiders).

I don’t want raids to fail. I don’t want challenging content to go away. I simply feel raids, as they are designed, aren’t really sustainable in this game. With some work – namely, extending the appeal (again, as other MMOs have done) – that can be remedied and we will have a stronger more appealing game for it.

Again, thank you for taking the time to humor me on this. I realize you and I disagree with one another. Let’s have a discussion about those disagreements (as you have definitely done above) rather than just argue (which is what much of this thread has devolved into).

TexZero.7910:

What is it you wish to objectively sit down here and discuss today ?

I’m very willing to listen to everyone’s point of view, as long as it is about the topic and not about me (or any other poster) directly. That, imo, is more often an obvious attempt to derail the thread than anything else (some really good examples of that on this page – calling people liars, generalizations about groups of people, making assumptions about how or why they play, etc).

So, minimizing the personal comments and insults, let’s have a real discussion and let’s make it real basic -

1. What is your single biggest objection to multiple difficulties in raids?
-
2. Would it be possible – in any way – for ArenaNet to implement tiered difficulties in a way you would be comfortable with? If not, why not. If so, what would that look like?
-
3. Would you have a problem with tiered difficulties existing if they did not change the way they develop/have any impact on the current tier of difficulty whatsoever (eg, didn’t add to development time, didn’t share the same rewards, etc)? (purely hypothetical)
-
4. Would you be interested in very challenging content outside of raids – including fractals, living story, etc? If so, what would that look like?
-
I have to get some actual work done this afternoon – and head out of the office for some errands/lunch – but feel free to answer (or not) and ask me (and others) a few basic questions (keeping them friendly and free of implied insults, of course). I’ll get back to them and show you the respect you (and anyone else willing to put the effort into expressing their opinion on these forums) deserves. It would probably be a good exercise to get the discussion back on track.

TexZero.7910:

Blaeys.3102:

TexZero.7910:

Blaeys.3102:

I also think you are making some misleading statements here intended to derail the thread and invalidate legitimate opinions. Whether a change is made or not, of course Anet should be paying attention. People on all sides of this argument have made some really good points. Making a statement like “I hope they aren’t listening to you” is just belittling and ridiculous.

You have easy mode VG in BSF and will be getting an easy mode Sloth in RoF. How much more attention does anet need to give you before it sinks in. They aren’t going to change raids for the complaining crowd when they are successful for the intended target audiences.

Taking the cosmetic appearance of a raid boss and using it on an open world boss doesn’t make the second a raid encounter. That is a weak argument and one that I think even the people making it don’t really believe (and actually comes across a little condescending).

People realize the reason raids were originally developed. Anet made that very clear. That doesn’t mean there isn’t room for expansion of/improvements on (in some’s opinion) that idea. It isn’t about complaining – it’s about discussing potential ideas for raiding in the game – specifically extending the game mode to include more playstyles and skill levels.

You keep saying broaden the appeal, make it easier, more accessible. That is exactly what they are doing when they port raid bosses and their mechanics in a watered down state to the open world. You’ve gotten your wish. If you don’t like it, you and whoever else feels that way can always you know….Go raid.

They didn’t port anything. They took the cosmetics and similar mechanics (but definitely not the same) of the fight and put it on an open world encounter. It was well done, but it wasn’t a raid encounter. This argument doesn’t hold water (and again, along with language like “if you don’t like it, then …” is very condescending). There can be a human boss in a raid – that doesn’t mean every human boss in the game is a raid clone (or vice versa).

I do raid, lead raids actually – multiple nights a week. Before GW2, I led raids(10 and 25 man) seven nights a week progression style for 6 years in WoW (with some world firsts, even). I know what raids are. I know what they bring to the game.

I also know that it is very possible to create multiple difficulty tiers without killing the difficulty of top end raids. It is possible to broaden the experience without killing the experience of those choosing to tackle the biggest challenges. It is possible to offer multiple experiences in the same content without making that content boring or unrewarding.

I know these things because a. they are common sense, and b. MANY MANY other raiding games have done this successfully in the past. It is kind of ironic, in fact, that the one game that prides itself on community focus and accessibility is pretty much the only raiding game on the market to not offer this option. I don’t believe it would be hard for them to do it – and I believe they will eventually see this (if they haven’t already).

To Absurdo – I have addressed almost all of your points in one way or another – you just have to go back to the first times you made them, rather than the 5th or six time you repeated them. Repeating the same questions over and over and then claiming no one responds to them EVERY single time is misleading. You may not have agreed with my responses (and others – again, not just me), but they are there. What I wont respond to any more are continued comments that try to make it personal – things like saying someone’s guild is bad because they don’t raid or that people aren’t playing the game right, etc. Let’s get past the obvious attempts to derail the thread and continue the real discussion.

I think the problem is the achievements versus the events themselves. Current world achievements on old maps really should be soloable when possible.

As for the group events, I actually like having them there to do as guild events every so often (and still think they should be transitioned to guild missions at some point).

TexZero.7910:

Blaeys.3102:

I also think you are making some misleading statements here intended to derail the thread and invalidate legitimate opinions. Whether a change is made or not, of course Anet should be paying attention. People on all sides of this argument have made some really good points. Making a statement like “I hope they aren’t listening to you” is just belittling and ridiculous.

You have easy mode VG in BSF and will be getting an easy mode Sloth in RoF. How much more attention does anet need to give you before it sinks in. They aren’t going to change raids for the complaining crowd when they are successful for the intended target audiences.

Taking the cosmetic appearance of a raid boss and using it on an open world boss doesn’t make the second a raid encounter. That is a weak argument and one that I think even the people making it don’t really believe (and actually comes across a little condescending).

People realize the reason raids were originally developed. Anet made that very clear. That doesn’t mean there isn’t room for expansion of/improvements on (in some’s opinion) that idea. It isn’t about complaining – it’s about discussing potential ideas for raiding in the game – specifically extending the game mode to include more playstyles and skill levels.

Absurdo.8309:

Blaeys.3102:

Absurdo.8309:

Finally, I would be careful about white-knighting. When run the risk that you’re arguing for no one.

It is interesting how this is a much different discussion on Reddit or even in the general GW2 subforum (prior to being moved) than it is here on the raiding subforum.

More directly to the point, however, I think we are both a little blinded by our perspective on this topic – and neither is going to change his mind.

But, I do take issue with the idea that I am the only person wanting something like this, which is provably untrue (again, you are stretching), especially if you look outside this subforum (and take into account the people who have given up on the discussion after being browbeaten and even threatened).

You also claim that I ignore your counterpoints (which I don’t ignore – I just usually disagree with) – while at the same time telling my argument is weak, unsupported or worse. Respect that people have different opinions – and that those opinions are based heavily on their own perspective. I know mine is.

What I see in game – what I hear from my guildees, from people online and others in the game (some of whom have reached out to specifically ask me to continue the points in this thread) – is that they are not happy with the current raiding model in the game right now. While that may not be a huge group in itself, I do feel it is representative of a decent enough percentage of the playerbase to keep the dialogue open and continuing.

Honestly, I know I’m not going to change your mind. I’m more worried about other players or Anet taking your ideas seriously.

I’ll agree though that continuing this particular discussion is not productive. Despite your calls for a dialog (again), it’s clear that you just want to post your ideas and then peace out (that is, not discuss them at all).

That’s fine. I’ll just let my counterpoints stand on their own then.

After 15+ pages, I’ve responded to many counterpoints and defended the concept of varied difficulty raids (which isn’t solely my idea – that is a little misleading and disingenuous of you to say) many times. And, I think some good points in favor have definitely been made (and not just by me).

What I try not to respond to are posts or comments that attack the person posting rather than the ideas – which is a fairly common practice here. If I did that, this thread would be 3 times the length it is now.

I also think you are making some misleading statements here intended to derail the thread and invalidate legitimate opinions. Whether a change is made or not, of course Anet should be paying attention. People on all sides of this argument have made some really good points. Making a statement like “I hope they aren’t listening to you” is just belittling and ridiculous.

Absurdo.8309:

Finally, I would be careful about white-knighting. When run the risk that you’re arguing for no one.

It is interesting how this is a much different discussion on Reddit or even in the general GW2 subforum (prior to being moved) than it is here on the raiding subforum.

More directly to the point, however, I think we are both a little blinded by our perspective on this topic – and neither is going to change his mind.

But, I do take issue with the idea that I am the only person wanting something like this, which is provably untrue (again, you are stretching), especially if you look outside this subforum (and take into account the people who have given up on the discussion after being browbeaten and even threatened).

You also claim that I ignore your counterpoints (which I don’t ignore – I just usually disagree with) – while at the same time telling my argument is weak, unsupported or worse. Respect that people have different opinions – and that those opinions are based heavily on their own perspective. I know mine is.

What I see in game – what I hear from my guildees, from people online and others in the game (some of whom have reached out to specifically ask me to continue the points in this thread) – is that they are not happy with the current raiding model in the game right now. While that may not be a huge group in itself, I do feel it is representative of a decent enough percentage of the playerbase to keep the dialogue open and continuing.

Absurdo.8309:

Blaeys.3102:

Absurdo.8309:

Finally, your solution isn’t anything like teq. Usually, if you can get to the first burn phase, you beat the boss. Also I never see groups say “let’s only go for the first chest guys! The others are too hard.” The first three chests are pity rewards. You get pity shards in raids for failures too.

---

I was speaking only about the chest reward system from Tequatl – which was a bit obvious (again, I think people are stretching to come up with criticisms).

You can’t look at the reward system in isolation.

The fact is, almost no maps fail teq if they can reach the first burn phase.

When talking specifically about reward structures, of course you can look at it in isolation (again, you’re stretching).

And, it most definitely wasn’t always the case that the fight was a guaranteed win after phase 1. The intermittent chests were there to reward stepping stone efforts and encourage continued efforts (the same as they would be in raids – while also giving less dedicated players a way to enjoy the content).

And yes, magnetite shards do this to a tiny degree, but that doesn’t mean the system I outline wouldn’t work (again, using a faulty analogy to stretch your argument). The point has more to do with enabling a training or easy mode with minimal reward to encourage people to participate (and, in the process, learn to raid and possibly move to improve in the pursuit of gold, deepening the pool of hardcore raiders – all while justifying more developer resources toward the game mode).

It really is a win-win. And, I really do think you are stretching a lot in some of the arguments.

Also, I know I’m fighting against the tide here on these forums. I really hate that Anet keeps moving any of these discussions to raiding subforum (but do understand why). The reality is that most of the people who would be interested in this don’t really come to this subforum. That wont stop me (and a few others) from continuing to champion this cause, however. It really is something Anet needs to see.

Absurdo.8309:

Finally, your solution isn’t anything like teq. Usually, if you can get to the first burn phase, you beat the boss. Also I never see groups say “let’s only go for the first chest guys! The others are too hard.” The first three chests are pity rewards. You get pity shards in raids for failures too.

---

I was speaking only about the chest reward system from Tequatl – which was a bit obvious (again, I think people are stretching to come up with criticisms).

And everyone realizes you do not see a problem with the current model. That doesn’t mean that others feel the same way. There is definite room for improvements/greater inclusion in the current raid system. I even think they are starting to experiment with how that might come about (the escort in wing three – testing new ways of tanking, surviving, etc).

No one wants to take the challenge out of raids. This is about extending that experience to more players, which can only result in good things, imo (more justification for raid dev resources, better ways for raiders to train, easier for Anet to include story in raids, etc).

You can fight against this, but I believe it is an inevitability – just as it has been in most other raiding games. Put some thought into how raids can be more inclusive without hurting the current challenge. Someone like you could have a lot of productive feedback to offer via ideas and opinions if you can look past the “I don’t want anyone else to be able to raid” mentality.

I would love to see a permanent unranked PVP map using the mechanics and terrain similar to that from Bloodstone Fen. I’m sure it would be unbalanced as a skritt on a unicycle, but it sure would be fun.

Rednik.3809:

Sykper.6583:

Ding Ding, we have a winner. This was one of the problems with why this ‘Wildstar’ system was an issue.

This issue is super easy to counter, just implement fractal tier chest system as reward for a kill. You killed boss in gold frame – you got all 3 chests (bronze, silver and gold), you killed boss in silver and then in gold frame – you got 2 chests (bronze and silver) and then gold one after gold kill.

This.

As for slipping into silver – for top tier groups that would be the equivalent of wiping. If you got silver, you just reset the fight and do it again (would require a way to reset it) – with each reward (gold, silver, bronze) available each week.

This isn’t a new system for GW2. The daily rewards for Tequatl and other bosses work exactly like this. There is a precedent in the game.

As for the having to kill bosses multiple times a week issue that Vinceman brings up, there are pretty simple solutions to get around that issue as well.

As far as failing from mechanics – this system would allow groups not interested in gold level rewards (or who are practicing) to stack more survival gear (as sort of a player created training mode). It creates more accessibility and build diversity without taking away the challenge or reward offered to top end groups.

There really is no down side. I think people are stretching to find criticisms here.

We all realize there are a lot of players very happy with raids. No one is trying to take that away. It really is about extending the experience to more players (many of whom would really enjoy it – despite what a few people want to believe).

Hexinx.1872:

Press your Y button… go to Looking for Group … -> Open World or World Bosses … join squad … port to map …

say hello to friends. it’s rude not to.

This 100%. While I have found a few dead maps, I can usually find something using LFG – either by taxiing to an active map or starting a squad. It doesn’t usually take much effort.

The big change will come from actually playing the skirmish matches as stand alone bouts. While the week-wide score will still be more important, I can see some fun in hopping on for a few hours with the goal of winning the shorter skirmish. Should be fun.

Absurdo.8309:

I’ll disagree on multiple difficulty modes solving content droughts. It would just take longer to release anything. While it would, in theory, cater to more players, there would be longer gaps between any content being released. I think this was the main complaint — there was no non-raid new content before bloodstone fen.

If raid content had offered something for more playerstyles, then it would have been considered as part of the regular content release schedule my more people. That would have help alleviate the drought concerns.

The inverse is also true – more difficult (very difficult) content in other game modes would reduce the wait for hardcore players as well.

As to your point about fractals – it is about creating common experiences. Yes, people playing T4 cant be in a T1 at the same time, but it does mean that both groups are getting to experience the content (story, base mechanics, setting, etc). That is more important than most want to realize.

Walling off content (even soft walls) removes that commonality. It is no longer the same game played different ways. It is, in essence, two different games. The more we separate players like this, the more polarized the community becomes, which isn’t healthy for the future of the game.

Very excited for this.

Would have loved to see “9. new guild missions” listed though. It has been a while.

Absurdo.8309:

Blaeys.3102:

cranos.5913:

Blaeys.3102:

cranos.5913:

Blaeys.3102:

As for legendary armor, I know they intimated that it will be solely based on raids, but I believe they will/should reconsider. “Legendary” should entail mastering every element of the game (including PVP and WvW).

How can you believe this after 4 years of old legendary weapons being purely gold based, the new legendary weapons being solely open world based and 2 legendary backpieces that focus entirely on a single game mode?

Never has any legendary required you to “master all game modes”.

Regardless, it is how it should be. Grinding out raid content should reward ascended pieces, but doesn’t warrant legendaries, imo. That should require reaching the pinnacle of every game mode (legendary in PvP, etc). It should be about prestige and mastering the game.

There’s a big difference between what they “will” do and what they “should” do. They’ve quite clearly chosen to add different legendary items to different content. (pvp backpiece, fractal backpiece, open world weapons, raid armor)

The only game mode that currently does not have a specific legendary piece tied to it is wvw.

Furthermore I disagree. I believe every game mode should have their own rewards to distinguish themselves from other players and show their dedication towards their preferred mode.

Making ppl do everything will just water down the skill level required to get that legendary anyway. Just look at what they did to pvp already solely because of the backpiece. Being legendary rank says absolutely nothing about skill level and surely isn’t regarded as the “pinnacle” of the game mode by any serious pvper.

The same can be said of grinding (or even paying for) raids. Legendary armor will not be a status symbol as many hope, but rather as just another thing to grind for. And, while the idea of legendary sets for each game mode sounds admirable, it isn’t really feasible given the development time required. It would be years before we saw them all.

If they required mastering every part of the game, it would, at least, add some prestige to owning the sets. It would mean those people did more than just grind one area of the game over and over.

This discussion about legendaries is, at best, off topic. At worst, it’s disingenuous, because the same argument applies to every legendary in the game.

On topic, I hope ANET is developing the next wing. I know they did develop some while making HOT, so they may not be able to stick to the 3 month time schedule.

It should definitely apply to all legendaries. People should have to master every aspect of the game for a legendary (including getting the top achievements for each game mode). Having a legendary should indicate a mastery of the game (the entire game).

Regarding raid wings, I don’t think they ever committed to a 3 month release window. I don’t see how they could do that. My guess is the next raid will be boxed with the next expansion. MO said things like armor sets, masteries, etc are considered expansion-only content. I wouldn’t be surprised if raids become the same (to encourage more xpac sales).

Absurdo.8309:

I don’t see how raids are different than the dungeons of old. There’s no reason why different content can’t have varying degrees of difficulty. Not everything needs to be easy.

There is also no reason the same content can’t have varying degrees of difficulty (fractals for example). They even realized this with dungeons early on (thus the story modes – a model I don’t think worked perfectly but did show they understand the need).

I understand (and partially agree with) some of your counterpoints, but see a major benefit to spreading the difficult (and casual) content throughout the game. It would alleviate the content drought issue – and not just for casuals. Hardcore players wouldn’t have to wait 9-12 (or more) months between compelling content drops either.

While it might take longer to put out specific content types, it would make the game as a whole more appealing to more people.

cranos.5913:

Blaeys.3102:

cranos.5913:

Blaeys.3102:

As for legendary armor, I know they intimated that it will be solely based on raids, but I believe they will/should reconsider. “Legendary” should entail mastering every element of the game (including PVP and WvW).

How can you believe this after 4 years of old legendary weapons being purely gold based, the new legendary weapons being solely open world based and 2 legendary backpieces that focus entirely on a single game mode?

Never has any legendary required you to “master all game modes”.

Regardless, it is how it should be. Grinding out raid content should reward ascended pieces, but doesn’t warrant legendaries, imo. That should require reaching the pinnacle of every game mode (legendary in PvP, etc). It should be about prestige and mastering the game.

There’s a big difference between what they “will” do and what they “should” do. They’ve quite clearly chosen to add different legendary items to different content. (pvp backpiece, fractal backpiece, open world weapons, raid armor)

The only game mode that currently does not have a specific legendary piece tied to it is wvw.

Furthermore I disagree. I believe every game mode should have their own rewards to distinguish themselves from other players and show their dedication towards their preferred mode.

Making ppl do everything will just water down the skill level required to get that legendary anyway. Just look at what they did to pvp already solely because of the backpiece. Being legendary rank says absolutely nothing about skill level and surely isn’t regarded as the “pinnacle” of the game mode by any serious pvper.

The same can be said of grinding (or even paying for) raids. Legendary armor will not be a status symbol as many hope, but rather as just another thing to grind for. And, while the idea of legendary sets for each game mode sounds admirable, it isn’t really feasible given the development time required. It would be years before we saw them all.

If they required mastering every part of the game, it would, at least, add some prestige to owning the sets. It would mean those people did more than just grind one area of the game over and over.

cranos.5913:

Blaeys.3102:

As for legendary armor, I know they intimated that it will be solely based on raids, but I believe they will/should reconsider. “Legendary” should entail mastering every element of the game (including PVP and WvW).

How can you believe this after 4 years of old legendary weapons being purely gold based, the new legendary weapons being solely open world based and 2 legendary backpieces that focus entirely on a single game mode?

Never has any legendary required you to “master all game modes”.

Regardless, it is how it should be. Grinding out raid content should reward ascended pieces, but doesn’t warrant legendaries, imo. That should require reaching the pinnacle of every game mode (legendary in PvP, etc). It should be about prestige and mastering the game.

Absurdo.8309:

Blaeys.3102:

The one thing I will say (and Ive said this a lot) is that the idea of casual players go to section A of the game and hardcore go to section B isn’t a viable model. It separates the PVE community and waters down developer resources.

Umm, isn’t this exactly what you want with an easy mode?

Absolutely not. The exact opposite in fact.

Right now, hardcore players are pushed toward raids while more casual players are pushed toward Bloodstone Fen (current end map). This is the polarization I was talking about.

What I want is for them to make both of these areas offer something for more audiences. In raids, that would mean either a training mode or a gold/silver/bronze reward based on kill time (which would be my preference).

But what we don’t talk about is what this mindset shift would look like in a place like Bloodstone Fen. What I would like to see in open world is incremental waves with ever more challenging content. Basically, instead of events (and world bosses) appearing on a schedule, they should come as a natural part of event chains where difficulty ramps up higher and higher the longer the players “hold” the area. It starts off easy – offering a more casual experience but eventually becomes eye-bleeding hard – with raid level bosses appearing on the map. I believe that, as the map ramps up, casual players would opt to move to map instances where the content remains more casual – while more and more hardcore players would enter the map to face the later challenges.

There are many ways they could do this, but the perfect example of how this might work would be in Cursed Shore – defending the gates of Arah. Instead of defending against the same group every so often, the attack event would continue to add more difficult opponents (think a wave of 5-10 Gigaticus Lupici) until the players eventually have to fall back (at which time we have to retake the gates and start over – with the more casual experience).

In Fractals, this would mean making lvl 100+ islands rival raids in complexity and difficulty. The lvl1-50 would offer the casual experience while the 100+ would be the hardcore experience – giving people a breadth of experiences while still encouraging them to play the same content. That same concept could work for guild missions (even incorporating insane versions of Tequatl for “legendary” level missions) and for living story steps (more challenging challenge motes).

This is what challenging content should have been, imo. Just walling off raids and saying “this is for the hardcore players” and “XYZ is for the casuals” creates the polarizing effects I mentioned (and that we are definitely seeing).

Design a game for all of your PVE players (with story and compelling content in ALL of it), but use the resources and strong developer knowledge to vary that experience enough to make sure those game elements appeal to a variety of playstyles.

I have to wonder what the current raid team could do if they were tasked with making Mai Trin or later steps in the “defend the gates of Arah” example I give above more difficult.

I think that, if you are expecting another raid that quickly, you will find yourself disappointed.

Games like WoW can push out raid content faster because that is their primary focus at end game. In GW2, raids are add on content meant to appease a small number of players. The focus is (and should be) on the larger world content developed for everyone. And, given the missteps in the past year, they really do need to focus on getting that back on track and working.

That isn’t to say raids do not have a place in GW2 – just, in their current state, they have to be secondary to open world and living story. I would expect the next raid to come with (or shortly after) the next expansion.

As for legendary armor, I know they intimated that it will be solely based on raids, but I believe they will/should reconsider. “Legendary” should entail mastering every element of the game (including PVP and WvW).

The only people who know how many are raiding would be Anet themselves.

After 15 pages, the only thing we can say with 100% confidence is that raiding is a polarizing topic – with different players exhibiting different priorities. This puts Anet in a rough spot – one that I don’t envy.

The one thing I will say (and Ive said this a lot) is that the idea of casual players go to section A of the game and hardcore go to section B isn’t a viable model. It separates the PVE community and waters down developer resources.

Throughout all game modes, we need a range of difficult experiences, achievements and goals (with appropriate rewards for each). Whenever a game wanders away from that approach (in either direction), it creates the polarizing effect we are starting to see in this game.

Dominik.5162:

It DOES matter for alot of people.
Just because you think it doesn’t matter that raids are the only piece of content that isn’t developed for casuals, doesn’t make your point more valid.
This point just isn’t valid.

And yes it is ok to raise a topic about this “extend” raids, but people have every right to diagree and refuse this topic.

I actually agree with pretty much everything you say. Those disagreements are healthy and the entire reason we have a forum, imo.

The impetus for my reply was to respond, with my opinion, to those who continually bring up the “this is what raids were designed for, so shut up,” and, even worse, the “omg, you just want to dumb the game down, so shut up,” responses we see throughout these threads.

Posters looking for a change (for the most part – there are some extremists I don’t agree with on both sides) understand what raids were initially meant to accomplish in the game – and most definitely have no desire to see the game dumbed down. My opinion (and it is just that) is that, for the sake of these arguments, that really doesn’t matter.

Many of us are here to ask that they consider a change – one that I personally feel would be healthy for the game. Extending the experience, for me, isn’t about taking anything away or diminishing anyone’s accomplishments. It is about giving more people an experience they would consider fun that fits with their playstyle. It isn’t any more complicated than that.

And, for the record, thank you for the reply and respectful debate points. It is obvious we disagree, but it is good to see that we can do so respectfully.

It isn’t about dumbing anything down. It isn’t about catering to “bad” or “stupid” players.

It is simply about raising a topic and asking (not demanding) Anet to consider extending the raid experience to include a wider range of players.

It doesn’t matter if that wasn’t the initial intent of raids. It doesn’t matter who raids might have been initially designed for.

It is simply about raising a topic and asking (not demanding) Anet to consider extending the raid experience to include a wider range of players.

No one wants to take anything away from anyone. And most, on all sides, agree that there should be some prestige (and recognition) for players who excel and play the game at a higher level.

People play the game differently. Not everyone cares about being the best or min/maxing or playing to the meta (even a little).

Raids are currently there to provide a high challenge level. But that doesn’t mean they cannot serve another purpose. Tiered difficulty would help temper the outcry regarding content droughts, make it easier for developers to craft a narrative without worry of exclusion and give more people something they would consider fun to do (the whole purpose of the game imo).

So again, it doesn’t matter why raids were developed. It doesn’t matter who believes raids are just for them. And, very importantly, people aren’t talking about taking away anything those people want or currently have.

It is simply about raising a topic and asking (not demanding) Anet to consider extending the raid experience to include a wider range of players.

And, of course, almost no one here is anti raid (asking to make something more inclusive is actually the opposite of “anti-”)

I think that is a fair request and one that deserves consideration.

I’ve said this same thing many times.

The counterargument that most give is that they timers are there to discourage “cheesing” the fight in all Nomads gear or something.

My response is, so what if people want to do it in all Nomads or something else non-meta that allows them to do the fight slower than the current groups? I say let them.

Just add in gold/silver/bronze reward tracks based on how fast the boss is killed. That way, you still reward the work the current groups are putting in – while opening the fights to a wider array of play styles.

This would allow players and communities to control their own kind of “easy mode.” Guilds looking for a more casual experience could take groups in designed around experiencing the fights rather than killing fast.

To me, this would be a win-win. Rewards would still be based on skill, but the experience would be open to a wider range of playstyles.

Let’s not turn this into another discussion about raid difficulty (there are a few threads about that already).

My guess is the OP is upset because raids require (kinda) the completion of the gliding mastery line.

If that is the case, I strongly disagree. Raids are part of the bigger picture – part of endgame – and not meant to stand alone. Requiring something like gliding (and updrafts) is fine, imo.

To the point of whether or not raids are the cause of the downtick in revenue – while I disagree with the current format of raids in the game (I may have mentioned that in a thread or two ), I do not believe raids can be blamed for the issue.

The big culprit is, of course, the content drought, especially in open world. People got used to a release cadence that could not be maintained once expansion development was integrated into the process. The result is less of the game we grew used to during the first few years, and that has disillusioned a lot of people.

Would the removal of raids fix that in any way? Only Anet knows, but I seriously doubt it. However, I do think going the other direction – adding a more casual version of the raids – would give those players more to do during any future droughts and alleviate some of the angst (but, again, that is better discussed in another thread).

Back to topic as a TL;DR – if the OP is referring to mastery requirements in raids, I disagree that it is any issue whatsoever. Raids are part of the endgame, but they are not the standalone endgame.

A lot of people would rather attack and belittle anyone who dares to criticize raids than admit there is an actual issue here.

That is a common debate topic where the goal is to shut down the conversation rather than directly address the topic raised. It is typically a sign of a weak position and desperation more than anything.

To people like the OP, I say don’t let people frighten you away from expressing your opinion.

It doesn’t matter what raids were originally designed for. It doesn’t matter if a small group of people consider them successful. What matters is the impact they are having on the overall endgame, their impact on the morale of the playerbase and making sure EVERYONE’s opinion is heard.

If people have issue with the current state of raids, then they should make those issues known. If people disagree with those issues, they should debate those issues directly. Making it personal about the poster – no matter what the situation – is just a bad debate tactic.

As an example of good feedback, see Rising Dusk’s post above. While I disagree with what he is saying (I don’t care what they were meant to do – I think what is important is the real impact on players in the game), he did something almost no other person did in this thread. He kept it about the topic and debated the points rather than attacking the person.

Hyperreliance on the meta hurts the game for some (me included). It limits creativity and makes it more a game of clones (copy-paste builds) than the pseudo-uniqueness we used to have.

It also develops barriers in the community where they really didn’t exist before. By designing a segment of the PVE end game (complete with story) for a small subsection of the playerbase, they risk alienating a lot of players, which – and you can debate his if you like – they are definitely doing (the OPs post is just one example).

The biggest concern is what happens next. If raids – as they are currently designed – are released on a semi-regular schedule, then they risk having them become the perceived end game in GW2. That is bad because of the limited appeal of raids in their current format.

Locking people out of that content (even perceptually) will result in disillusioned players who feel like the game is no longer really designed for them.

The answer – that many don’t want to accept – is to incorporate tiered difficulty across multiple game modes. Expand raids to include a wider base of player (no matter what raids were originally intended to do) and look at expanding things like story steps, fractals, etc to include much more difficulty content (alongside what we have now).

Would this take extra developer resources? Of course. Would it be worth the time? I really think it would.

Almost everyone criticizing the OP is basically telling him the same thing:

“You’re playing the game wrong.”

When GW2 first came out, many people came here because they were tired of hearing that – and definitely tired of games and developers that supported that kind of attitude.

It’s a game. Tell people “you’re playing it wrong” too many times and I don’t think they will keep playing – especially when you have taken the exact opposite approach for years. It’s time someone at Anet started remembering that again.

Ging.6485:

The thing about meta builds is there are usually 3 components to Raids.

Doing Damage, CCing Breakbars, Performing Mechanics correctly.
There is an optimal way of doing these things. This optimal way, the metal build, was discovered by certain people after long periods of practice. So as the raids don’t become easy or trivial, they seem to in fact be balanced around the meta builds.

The way to fix this is basically … The new Swampland. Bloomhunger has low HP and no timer making DPS inconsequential, on the other hand he does super high damage, that while avoidable, requires attention to your surroundings and skills. He also has phases of stationary high damage that can either be dealt with by utilizing all ranged players, or by breaking the bar. Bloomhunger is utilizing raid mechanics without the pressures of raid timers or requiring a meta build… yet there are tons of people that still complain about the encounter.

The only thing that I would change about Bloomhunger, is to force people to CC him. Make him take reduced damage during the CC phase, and also wipe the group if they don’t CC him fast enough (within 15 seconds let’s say).

However, even that would not be enough to quell everyone’s complaints. Which means that, it is almost impossible for Anet to make a challenging raid encounter. Because people complaining about a moderately challenging fight such as new Swampland, basically boils down to people complaining about challenge as a whole.

If you combine your thoughts above with those of the post immediately before you -

curtegg.5216:

Eliminate old technology of time-gating and implement tiered loot rewards based upon performance would prevent this drama. Do it faster get 2x the loot or better RNG.

and you would probably have a good raid system – one that rewards attention to detail and excelling at the fight – while still giving people with non meta builds a realistic opportunity to experience an entire raid (with the understanding that the rewards will probably not be as good).

GW2 has some great mechanics in place – and a strong history of thinking outside the box when it comes to implementing content. I feel a system like the one outlined above (or something else more creative) would be way better than what we have now (still offering a real challenge without creating the barriers the current system has).

Once again, I raid every week and I most definitely am not anti-raid.

Every time anyone talks about changing anything with raids, the same 2-3 people immediately pounce and start yelling about “anti raid” or “you have no idea what youre talking about.”

It isn’t about chest thumping and who can prove they are the best raider through their forum comments. It is about providing feedback and, hopefully, inviting multiple perspectives to the conversation.

I think raids need some work. I think with some minor tweaks, they could offer a challenging and more open experience without some the barriers that exist in the current model. I respect that others do not feel that way.

And, please please please make arguments without making it personal – or going on the warpath as soon as someone says something about change. All that does is discourage people from taking part in the conversation – which isn’t good for anyone.

Torolan.5816:

Raids as content fared far better than I expected, so I have to give Anet some credit despite my personal aversion to raids. Raids as source of income obviously not so much. It failed to replace people leaving the game with new people.

There is a good reason for this.

In order to be truly enticing to the raiding crowd, they would have to compete with MMOs whose primary end game focus is raiding – meaning Anet would have to start pushing out 3-4 full raids a year.

That is something they obviously cannot – and should not – do. It would take too much away from the rest of the game and only further divide the playerbase.

What they need to do now is get back to basics, catering to the more casual – mom and dad getting off work and wanting to unwind with friends – crowd again. Keep 10 player instancing in, but stop with the “this content is for group A and this content is for group B” mentality. Add in difficulty tiers (across multiple content types), but stop with the over segmentation of the game population.

In their effort to add a few terms to their press releases, they lost focus on what this game is really about. Until they get that back, I’m afraid the bad revenues will just continue to worse.

Raids are poorly designed. They reinforce a tired meta game where “skill” is measured not by how good you are as a player, but rather your ability to copy and paste the highest dps build from a third party website.

This gamemode could have been something unique and amazing. Instead, they chose the same tired system used by every other raiding game out there. The result is not only bad for raiding, but is having a negative impact on the rest of the game as well. Half the fun of GW2 was making a semi-unique build based around how you enjoy playing – and still feeling like the entire game was open to you.

Raiding – in the format they chose to implement – changed that. It turned the game into a me-too where copy paste skills are the most important gameplay element. I only hope they see this and change course before continuing down this path.

I enjoyed heart of thorns. I did not enjoy the 8 month window after HOT with no content other than raids.

As others have said, somewhere along the line, Anet made the decision to market to more traditional MMO players in an attempt to bring in new revenue. They carbon copied end game from those games (raids in GW2 are uninventive and basically lifted from every other raiding MMO).

In the process, they diluted their resources so much that they were no longer able to keep the core game feeling alive. Even the most recent update, which was amazing btw great, is now being pretty much passed by. They have to do more – and when they do it, it needs to appeal to the core communities that support this game.

• If they insist on continuing with raids, they need to reevaluate the model to generate more mass appeal

• They have to support popular large group activities more, specifically overhauling world bosses (including loot), creating new guild missions (it’s been 3+ years), guild hall activities, etc

• Armor and weapon skins cannot be an “expansion only” perk. The game reward is based on cosmetics. Putting that behind a pay wall just feels like backpedalling.

• The cadence for new content has to be meatier. Every 2-3 months is fine, but focus on adding things that create ongoing fun content (guild missions are a good example)

• They have a lot to prove to us before they should be allowed to use the word “expansion.” One semi-significant content update post HOT and promises about a new update cadence isn’t enough to reinstill consumer confidence in this product. We will need to see – at bare minimum – content equivalent to Season Two beforehand. Using the announced schedule, and seeing the last update, that will take them, if they can do ever 2 months, at leat 2 years to release – 3 if they end up releasing every 3 months (considerably longer if they start considering holiday updates as major updates).

Most Importantly, they need to get back to the basics and philosophies they used when they designed the core game and delivered on amazing content in the first two seasons (marionette, tower of nightmares, escape from LA, etc).

Rushing out a new expansion is the last thing they need to do right now. It may inject some short term capital into the game, but it would likely result in losses long term as more people are caught behind a wall they don’t pay for and fall out of the game.

What they need to do is work on keeping the game engaging for the masses more consistently. Push out meaningful open world and large group (guild and WvW) content that gives people a reason to log in day to day. Then tie gem store items into what is taking place in game. Gem store sales are down because people don’t have a compelling reason to log in or an emotional attachment to the lives of their characters/the story the way they did toward the end of season one or throughout season two.

Additionally, I’m worried that, given the cadence of living story, they will try to split season three with the expansion. In my opinion, they need to deliver a full chapter before even announcing the next expansion. That means content depth and quality comparable to the past two seasons. They have delivered, at best, 1/10th of that so far.

Finally, there are several game modes that have still gone unsupported in terms of new content – the biggest being guild missions. There needs to be a significant amount of new content in these areas as well before a new expansion is even considered.

It’s just too early to be talking expansion.

Very good question. I think there is a lot about this event that isn’t well thought out. Definitely needs some polish.

It is extremely unintuitive and confusing. The concept is great – the implementation needs a little polish.

We need a better way to see when nothing is active – and a clearer image when things are active.

This is what happens when you give pets permanent names. That level of self identity leads to rebellion and a general refusal to listen. When the pigs start walking on two legs, we’ll know it’s time to leave the farm.

But more directly to the point, yea, this should be a bug report.