Guild Wars 2

Ayrilana.1396:

Blaeys.3102:

Ayrilana.1396:

Blaeys.3102:

Ayrilana.1396:

I don’t expect you to know this as you probably haven’t been a part of project work before.

Keep the personal insults out of the conversation. They only serve to derail topics and shutdown threads.

I raid with organized groups every week – I have raided end game hardcore progression – even have some world firsts. Outside the game, I have owned my own business for almost 10 years and am an extremely successful professional in my field who is called upon to build goal oriented teams for my clients.

I only post this to refute the silly personal attack. The point is, keep to the topic at hand and leave the personal stuff out of it.

It doesn’t matter when the wings were developed – and the size of the map is something you see for yourself ingame. Again, consider the law of conservation of energy. All effort has to come from a finite pool – and, in the case of things like voice acting, map design, writing, etc, these are one to one correlations with non raid content (voice acting a raid boss’s line is identical to voice acting an open world character’s).

It wasn’t a personal insult. It was an assumption based on most people not having experience in project work. There’s really nothing wrong in that. It’s very much a part of the topic as the complaint was that they were misrepresenting the size of their team. I disputed it.

You cannot say that the raid map is the same as any of the other HoT maps or even the core maps.

I didn’t say it was exactly the same.

I said it was roughly the same size. It was in reference to the art and environmental resources used to develop the map.

I believe their may be some tasks associated with raids that are easier to do than others. But, when you add in all of the other elements that do have one to one correlations with other content (voice work, map development, fight balancing, writing lore – which they have bragged about, etc), the idea that SIGNIFICANTLY (key word) less effort was required seems a bit silly.

There is more that is put into open world maps than instanced maps. They are not equivalent or even close for that matter. It’s not really the same size as there’s not much walkable space. If there was a map that was the size of all of Heart of Maguuma, but only consisted of a small island the size of claw island, would you consider that map to be larger than the others? There’s also very little vertical space as well.

Also, what makes you think that the raid team doesn’t develop the maps themselves? I’m pretty sure that they develop all of the raid bosses too including the balancing. That’s the vast majority of what you see. The lore is fairly small in raids compared to the living story and chances are a lot of it will be used for LS3 in some way. Voice work is contracted out so I doubt it has any impact on any other areas of the game.

I stand by what I’ve listed above, but I also respect that you feel differently.

Personally, I think they overstated how easy raids are to develop in an effort to downplay community emotions regarding the content drought, and people have latched onto that as an argument for something else entirely.

I don’t mind that they use resources to develop raids – even if it is greater than they have led people to believe (which I feel is the case). I just believe that, to justify the use of any resources that would otherwise be used elsewhere, raids need to have greater appeal than they currently do.

Razor.9872:

Blaeys.3102:

Absurdo.8309:

I think the logical conclusion from “a 4 person squad beats VG” is VG isn’t as difficult as we thought it was.

Other conclusions seem needlessly circuitous.

This is a faulty syllogism (for the reasons I list above, where are anything but circuitous), and I think most people who have played any serious raid-based game see that pretty clearly.

Looked pretty circuitous to me.

I can see why it is easy for people to want to make that connection, but anyone who has raided for any length of time has seen examples like the 4 player kills many times over and realizes it doesn’t speak to the difficulty of the content as it is experienced by the greater community, but rather to the dedication and skill of the individual group involved.

Ive brought this up multiple times in this thread because it is important to the core issue – difficulty, hardcore vs casual, accessibility – none of these are finite concepts or terms. They are defined by individual perspective.

Ayrilana.1396:

Blaeys.3102:

Ayrilana.1396:

I don’t expect you to know this as you probably haven’t been a part of project work before.

Keep the personal insults out of the conversation. They only serve to derail topics and shutdown threads.

I raid with organized groups every week – I have raided end game hardcore progression – even have some world firsts. Outside the game, I have owned my own business for almost 10 years and am an extremely successful professional in my field who is called upon to build goal oriented teams for my clients.

I only post this to refute the silly personal attack. The point is, keep to the topic at hand and leave the personal stuff out of it.

It doesn’t matter when the wings were developed – and the size of the map is something you see for yourself ingame. Again, consider the law of conservation of energy. All effort has to come from a finite pool – and, in the case of things like voice acting, map design, writing, etc, these are one to one correlations with non raid content (voice acting a raid boss’s line is identical to voice acting an open world character’s).

It wasn’t a personal insult. It was an assumption based on most people not having experience in project work. There’s really nothing wrong in that. It’s very much a part of the topic as the complaint was that they were misrepresenting the size of their team. I disputed it.

You cannot say that the raid map is the same as any of the other HoT maps or even the core maps.

I didn’t say it was exactly the same.

I said it was roughly the same size. It was in reference to the art and environmental resources used to develop the map.

I believe their may be some tasks associated with raids that are easier to do than others. But, when you add in all of the other elements that do have one to one correlations with other content (voice work, map development, fight balancing, writing lore – which they have bragged about, etc), the idea that SIGNIFICANTLY (key word) less effort was required seems a bit silly.

Ayrilana.1396:

I don’t expect you to know this as you probably haven’t been a part of project work before.

Keep the personal insults out of the conversation. They only serve to derail topics and shutdown threads.

I raid with organized groups every week – I have raided end game hardcore progression – even have some world firsts. Outside the game, I have owned my own business for almost 10 years and am an extremely successful professional in my field who is called upon to build goal oriented teams for my clients. I am also a US military veteran that served as a medic with US Marines (Navy Corpsman) – which I think qualifies as team oriented work.

I only post this to refute the silly personal attack. The point is, keep to the topic at hand and leave the personal stuff out of it.

It doesn’t matter when the wings were developed – and the size of the map is something you see for yourself ingame. Again, consider the law of conservation of energy. All effort has to come from a finite pool – and, in the case of things like voice acting, map design, writing, etc, these are one to one correlations with non raid content (voice acting a raid boss’s line is identical to voice acting an open world character’s).

Ayrilana.1396:

Blaeys.3102:

Absurdo.8309:

The team developing raids is small compared to the rest of the team. You already have your wish regarding resource allocation.

This is based off a single off the cuff statement on Reddit and has been proven to not be the case more than once.

While there may be a small core team developing raids (and I’m not sure I would consider what they’ve shown us to be small), they have stated that they pull in artists, coders, voice actors, story developers, etc. as they develop the content. I doubt the team is anywhere near small once you take those into account – and they most definitely have some impact on the rest of the company’s ability to develop content.

In physics, this is called the law of conservation of energy – in other words, the work has to come from a limited pool. And that limited pool would not be static if raids didn’t exist; it would be dedicated to other projects with greater mass appeal.

And the idea that multiple difficulty modes would split the playerbase seems like a faulty assumption to me – especially when you consider the alternative is to actually split the playerbase between game modes. Encouraging interest from more players seems like the logical first step to fixing the issue.

As far as escort is concerned, I agree – it is a great example. I think it sets a good baseline that lower difficulty development could aspire to (while simultaneously making that encounter more difficulty in higher levels).

Source where it has been proven to not be the case?

In their promotion/Twitch broadcasts/etc pushing raids, Anet employees have listed their raid team members and talked about bringing in outside resources to complete raids way more than they have talked about the small team size. They have listed the team members, but they have always been careful to give credit to all of the others behind the scenes.

The idea that the raid, which is essentially the size of a new open world map with complex boss fights, lore items (primarily in wing three with the statues), unique loot tables, explorable areas (such as the body in the water), etc took less effort to develop than a fractal, living story instance, guild mission or even world dynamic events, is patently absurd and I cannot believe that people actually believe it for a second.

Absurdo.8309:

I think the logical conclusion from “a 4 person squad beats VG” is VG isn’t as difficult as we thought it was.

Other conclusions seem needlessly circuitous.

This is a faulty syllogism (for the reasons I list above, where are anything but circuitous), and I think most people who have played any serious raid-based game see that pretty clearly.

Absurdo.8309:

The team developing raids is small compared to the rest of the team. You already have your wish regarding resource allocation.

This is based off a single off the cuff statement on Reddit and has been proven to not be the case more than once.

While there may be a small core team developing raids (and I’m not sure I would consider what they’ve shown us to be small), they have stated that they pull in artists, coders, voice actors, story developers, etc. as they develop the content. I doubt the team is anywhere near small once you take those into account – and they most definitely have some impact on the rest of the company’s ability to develop content.

In physics, this is called the law of conservation of energy – in other words, the work has to come from a limited pool. And that limited pool would not be static if raids didn’t exist; it would be dedicated to other projects with greater mass appeal.

And the idea that multiple difficulty modes would split the playerbase seems like a faulty assumption to me – especially when you consider the alternative is to actually split the playerbase between game modes. Encouraging interest from more players seems like the logical first step to fixing the issue.

As far as escort is concerned, I agree – it is a great example. I think it sets a good baseline that lower difficulty development could aspire to (while simultaneously making that encounter more difficulty in higher levels).

Nozome.7853:

Raids should remain with one mode. The percentage of players wanting a harder mode is really low , and having an easier mode makes no sense. How much easier should they be? VG was killed by 4 people!!!

The fact that VG was killed with 4 people only illustrates that there are players out there with tremendous skill and the desire to microanalyze everything needed to do this kind of thing. It does not, in any way, speak to the accessibility of the fight. Every raiding MMO out there sees groups like this doing amazing (borderline crazy) things like this. There will always be a tiny group of players looking to develop speed run or limited number metas to do things like this.

In fact, it creates even more need for multiple difficulties. As these small groups get better and better at raids, the gap between PVE players will widen way more than we see now. As Anet works harder and harder to challenge these small groups, more and more people would be left behind with a single difficulty level. There will be greater need for challenge motes, tiered difficulty levels and a deeper pool of potential players raiding.

That will dictate the implementation of core systems designed to address this. What they DESPARATELY need to do is accept that and implement tiered or variable difficulties now – to retain the number of active raiders and warrant continued development on raids.

People keep bringing up this idea that raids should be for hardcore and living world should be for casuals – with fractals somewhere in between.

That idea might sound like it makes sense, but in reality, it splits the playerbase in ways that are not healthy. Anet saw this early on – its why there are difficult achievements, challenge motes, fractal levels, etc. in the game. The goal has always been to keep player together – to have them playing in the same areas or content, even if they weren’t playing the same ways or at the same level.

I do not see them changing this philosophy – and I do believe that they will see their misstep with raids sooner rather than later – and apply that same approach here. Otherwise, I do not see how raids can survive in the game.

A game mode can survive the inclusion of more players – through the introduction of layered difficulties. In fact, common sense says that it is the healthy approach – one that gives the developers reason to care more about raids.

Do you really think that Anet can legitimately continue regular support of a PVE game mode designed for a smaller percentage of the game population? More people raiding – through tiered difficulties and other accessibility tools – means they have a reason to insert raids into the game more often.

As an example, we haven’t seen new PVE guild mission in 3+ years, even though I would argue more people do missions than raid. So, if they use the model, develop separately for the separate groups based on game interest, we should see the next raid in 2020.

I don’t want that any more than anyone else – but that means creating more mass appeal for raids. I know some people don’t want that (often for extremely selfish reasons, imo), but it needs to happen or Anet will eventually have to abandon the idea of raiding altogether, for the reason I list above (their effort has to go where the players are).

I see several valid points from both sides throughout this thread, which I would summarize as follows:

• Raiders do not want to see the fights dumbed down in any way. They want a hardcore experience – possibly even exceeding the one we have now.

• There is a group of people that would enjoy raiding at a lower difficulty than the one currently available – and are interested in ANet exploring ways to make that happen.

• People who put in the effort to overcome the greater challenge should receive a greater (cosmetic) reward.

• Some people feel the fights are currently accessible while others feel they are not.

• Adding additional difficulties would require some additional work by the developers, but no one can say with any certainty how much effort that would be.

Of these points, the first two are pretty much provable through strong anecdotal evidence. There really isn’t anything to discuss – unless you start using phrases like “they don’t deserve” or “they’re being selfish” or “elitism vs casual,” which simply do not belong in this discussion.

The remaining three points are the contentious ones. They are all very fluid, meaning that there is no right or wrong involved. Level of reward, accessibility and how much additional dev effort is warranted are all variables that different individuals will look at much differently.

So, keeping in mind this is my opinion, here is my take on those three:

Level of reward.
I believe that there be tiered rewards based on the difficulty and type of content. And, I believe that the differences should be completely cosmetic. There is some grey room when talking about legendary armor sets, but the reality is – by the time a person could make a legendary armor set, they could probably make 15-20 ascended sets, which would be much more valuable (able to use multiple runes, multiple visual looks, multiple weight classes, etc).

I firmly believe that, if they implemented multiple difficulties, they would need to offer multiple rewards.

Accessibility
This is the big one – and the center of most of the debates here. The reality is (imo), it doesn’t matter what any one person feels about whether the raids are accessible or not. If there are large groups who feel that raids are out of reach (for logistics, meta-focused or other reasons) – and that would still enjoy the experience, then there is a portion of the game population who are going to feel jaded and left out.

Now, the question becomes whether or not Anet should address that. My take is, as long as it does not detract from the difficulty or reward exclusivity of the higher difficulties, they most definitely should. The idea that they shouldn’t because hardcore raiders need some special area that is just for them is really just based around egos (imo) and doesn’t really hold water.

Developer Resources
To me, this is the strongest argument against tiered raiding (but, surprisingly, one that isn’t really used a lot in these discussions).

If developing multiple tiers for raids meant doubling the size of the team at Anet or that it would take twice as long to get raids out, then I could see an argument against the idea. But, I do think they could come up with a creative way to implement this idea into the base game mode system that would lessen the impact on dev time.

The truth is, we do not know the answer to this one. We can only guess. Personally, my guess is that a system that worked on straight percentage decreases (lessening health, damage, etc) and removal of enrage timers at lower levels would be enough to offer the experience, but might make some fights (not all) so easy as to be insignificant – but that would be okay as long as the fights didn’t offer too great a reward.

So, purely emotional arguments about whether or not raiders deserve (or need) a hardcore experience or more casual players deserve (or need) a lesser difficulty are just us spinning our wheels. No one is going to change anyone’s mind on this topic because the realities involved here are based on personal perspective and experience.

There are topics, however – such as how they could achieve greater accessibility without impacting the current experience and what warrants more developer time – that are worth discussion.

Dinosaurs.8674:

Blaeys.3102:

I think the best evidence that this would actually work is in the game right now – the first encounter in the Stronghold of the Faithful wing.

My guild has recently started taking multiple groups to successfully complete that fight – even with people who enjoy non meta builds. That isn’t something we can enjoyably do with the rest – but could (and would LOVE doing so) if there was a dual tier of difficulties.

That encounter feels like what I would like to see in a lower difficulty mode. If every fight offered two modes – one that was tuned around the level of that fight and one that was tuned around (or tuned higher than) Gorseval or Matthias, I think it would be well received. In fact, based on the fun people are having with that first fight, I know it would. This would probably even allow Anet to make the higher difficulty MUCH more difficult (as many agree they aren’t currently that challenging for the higher end raiders).

And, it is worth noting, while it isn’t the sole defining factor of the fight, part of what makes that first encounter feel more open is the lack of an enrage timer. Little changes like that can make enough of a difference in many cases.

On the other hand that encounter is by far the worst in the game and if that’s what you would like to see in an easy mode fight then I don’t see how they could possibly be successful. Somehow I doubt that anyone would enjoy doing 9 siege the castles every week. Fights that easy aren’t fun to repeat, they are a chore.

If I were to pick a current fight for an example of “easy mode” it would be gorseval with 10-15% less hp and no walls, or slothasor with no evolved slublings and a fixed tank. That’s pretty easy but at least there’s enough pressure on the players that it feels like you accomplished something at the end.

These ideas sound fine to me. I definitely wasn’t advocating mirroring the escort – just looking at as a (very rough) baseline for a lower level of difficulty.

The people I have talked to are in two distinct camps on that fight – one side thinks its boring because it is too easy and the other really enjoys the mechanics without the overt pressure of the enrage timer or more stressful mechanics.

I firmly believe each fight in the raid could be tweaked to offer two different difficulty levels that would be entertaining to those two groups. I’m not a developer, so this is just guesswork, but I also believe that could probably be done in a way that would not add extensively to the development process.

I do believe it is needed – to ensure everyone has realistic access to the story experience, to provide a deeper raiding experience that appeals to a larger percentage of players (warranting continued support for raids), and to simply ensure people in both camps actually enjoy the raid experience as much as possible on every fight.

And, so it is still clear – each difficulty should have distinct rewards based on the effort expended. By no means should a lower level of difficulty offer the same reward. This is really all about the experience (and, possibly, to offer a training platform).

I think the best evidence that this would actually work is in the game right now – the first encounter in the Stronghold of the Faithful wing.

My guild has recently started taking multiple groups to successfully complete that fight – even with people who enjoy non meta builds. That isn’t something we can enjoyably do with the rest – but could (and would LOVE doing so) if there was a dual tier of difficulties.

That encounter feels like what I would like to see in a lower difficulty mode. If every fight offered two modes – one that was tuned around the level of that fight and one that was tuned around (or tuned higher than) Gorseval or Matthias, I think it would be well received. In fact, based on the fun people are having with that first fight, I know it would. This would probably even allow Anet to make the higher difficulty MUCH more difficult (as many agree they aren’t currently that challenging for the higher end raiders).

And, it is worth noting, while it isn’t the sole defining factor of the fight, part of what makes that first encounter feel more open is the lack of an enrage timer. Little changes like that can make enough of a difference in many cases.

Harper.4173:

Blaeys.3102:

Harper.4173:

Blaeys.3102:

OriOri.8724:

Some content needs to be challenging and only challenging.

Obviously, there are many who disagree with this statement.

Providing multiple difficulty tiers in no way alters the harder experience – and I firmly believe that most hardcore players are mature enough to not feel that something someone else is doing in a completely different instance – that they acknowledge isn’t as demanding – someone diminishes their accomplishment.

It’s either out of selfishness or some silly grade school playground “you can’t play with my toys” complex.

It is because earning the same unique skin rewards would certainly diminish the feeling of accomplishment.

How is my raid skin unique and a strong statement about my skill if everyone else has it from doing “ez mode raids”?
I don’t mind everyone else having it from doing normal raids – it just means they’re also good – but the initial statement about MY skill remains true. But if they get it from “ez mode” raids then the message my unique skin tells becomes lost.

I actually agree 100% with this.

What many of us are advocating is tiered difficulty and tiered reward. This is about the experience of the raid, not unrealistic expectations about comparable rewards.

Anet does a good job of allocating rewards based on skill level – whether it is through the gold/silver/bronze system, enhanced difficulty achievements (my mini clockheart is still my favorite mini for this very reason) or straight levels (as with fractal and gold fractal weapon skins).

I would NEVER want them to deviate from that (let me say it again very loudly – NEVER ). You do something that is harder, you deserve a way to show that off.

This is solely about accessibility to the experience.

Tiered reward systems that don’t invalidate skin statements would only work if they implemented a system that is akin to taking a precursor from its initial skin to the final legendary form.

With that I mean this – if you get broze in raids and can only do bronze you should only have access to a very simplistic skin variant of the final skin rewards found in the raid. If you got silver -a better skin – and gold would get you the original raid-reward skin in its full glory.

That could work.

But giving people tiered rewards ( less shards, worse drops, less gold) while allowing them access to the full variety of raid reward skins would in time invalidate those items. Because people with no skill would just grind through it.

You and I are on the same page on this 100%

forum bug bugs me. does the bug bug you?

Harper.4173:

Blaeys.3102:

OriOri.8724:

Some content needs to be challenging and only challenging.

Obviously, there are many who disagree with this statement.

Providing multiple difficulty tiers in no way alters the harder experience – and I firmly believe that most hardcore players are mature enough to not feel that something someone else is doing in a completely different instance – that they acknowledge isn’t as demanding – someone diminishes their accomplishment.

It’s either out of selfishness or some silly grade school playground “you can’t play with my toys” complex.

It is because earning the same unique skin rewards would certainly diminish the feeling of accomplishment.

How is my raid skin unique and a strong statement about my skill if everyone else has it from doing “ez mode raids”?
I don’t mind everyone else having it from doing normal raids – it just means they’re also good – but the initial statement about MY skill remains true. But if they get it from “ez mode” raids then the message my unique skin tells becomes lost.

I actually agree 100% with this.

What many of us are advocating is tiered difficulty and tiered reward. This is about the experience of the raid, not unrealistic expectations about comparable rewards.

Anet does a good job of allocating rewards based on skill level – whether it is through the gold/silver/bronze system, enhanced difficulty achievements (my mini clockheart is still my favorite mini for this very reason) or straight levels (as with fractal and gold fractal weapon skins).

I would NEVER want them to deviate from that (let me say it again very loudly – NEVER ). You do something that is harder, you deserve a way to show that off.

This is solely about accessibility to the experience.

Absurdo.8309:

Blaeys.3102:

TexZero.7910:

Blaeys.3102:

Again – about degrees. I’m not saying it was completely stamped out, just that with raids, they really have deviated from their typical approach to community and content accessibility – resulting in a much higher level of this kind of thing.

Literally and patently false.

Nothing they’ve done has changed or removed your ability to get into the content. Nothing they’ve done has removed your tools to form your own groups.

Again, this is your opinion, just as what I have said is my opinion. It is why I stress this conversation isn’t about absolutes – its about degrees.

This is all based on the perspective we bring to the situation.

There is a actually a great book about this from Umberto Eco entitled Kant and the Platypus. It talks about how our personal and cultural experiences/beliefs form our opinions and even our definitions of things around us – even those we hold to be sacrosanct (which you apparently do with the above).

In short, our personal perspectives define our personal realities. That is where our divergent opinions come from.

I respect that your opinion is different than mine. If you cannot find a way to respect the same of mine, then there is no point in the two of us continuing to contradict one another. It will just become a vicious circle with no end.

Sorry, there’s no reason to respect an opinion of you don’t put anything behind it.

Claim: Raids are not assessible because it’s hard to find a group to play with.

Response: It’s actually pretty easy if you make an lfg post or join a guild.

Reply: But it’s my opinion.

If all of your replies are just “it’s my opinion”, them it’s rational to dismiss them. It’s no longer a dialog — instead it’s a soapbox.

Debating the differences between our opinions is healthy – and what the forums should be all about.

As a good example, you and I have had some really good conversations about our differences of opinion, while still respecting that they are just that – our opinions.

But when the basis of someone’s argument is “what I say are the facts and thereby what you say is invalid – so now stop talking” over and over with no new argument or dialogue (which is what has happened here), then the process falls apart.

Mutual respect and a willingness to continue the dialogue. That is all I am asking for.

TexZero.7910:

Blaeys.3102:

Again – about degrees. I’m not saying it was completely stamped out, just that with raids, they really have deviated from their typical approach to community and content accessibility – resulting in a much higher level of this kind of thing.

Literally and patently false.

Nothing they’ve done has changed or removed your ability to get into the content. Nothing they’ve done has removed your tools to form your own groups.

Again, this is your opinion, just as what I have said is my opinion. It is why I stress this conversation isn’t about absolutes – its about degrees.

This is all based on the perspective we bring to the situation.

There is a actually a great book about this from Umberto Eco entitled Kant and the Platypus. It talks about how our personal and cultural experiences/beliefs form our opinions and even our definitions of things around us – even those we hold to be sacrosanct (which you apparently do with the above).

In short, our personal perspectives define our personal realities. That is where our divergent opinions come from.

I respect that your opinion is different than mine. If you cannot find a way to respect the same of mine, then there is no point in the two of us continuing to contradict one another. It will just become a vicious circle with no end.

TheRandomGuy.7246:

Blaeys.3102:

I believe Anet did a much better job discouraging and even actively combatting the issue – through all of the areas I mention in an earlier post.

What did they do to stop people from creating “ac p1 10k+ ap ele only” lfgs?

Absolutely nothing – but, as five player content (with no artificial barriers such as enrage timers), it was MUCH easier to find another group that wasn’t as shortsighted.

Again – about degrees. I’m not saying it was completely stamped out, just that with raids, they really have deviated from their typical approach to community and content accessibility – resulting in a much higher level of this kind of thing.

Also, as an FYI, people on these forums have said that these comments on reddit are from you because of the similarities in name:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/4s58i2/woodenpotatoes_waiting_on_season_3_the_content/d57vhdj?context=3

Given your calm demeanor on these forums and willingness to have an actual conversation – and the extreme derision and irrational hate this person communicated, I’m thinking this is probably just someone who chose a similar name. Something you should be aware of, though.

TheRandomGuy.7246:

Blaeys.3102:

The example I would give you of a game that really discouraged this kind of behavior is pretty easy – GW2 at launch and during the first 3 years.

So you saying that in first 3 years of the game we had literally no “elitist” lfgs with random player made requirements?

As I said above, it is about degrees. Of course the attitude has persisted since the game started. It is impossible to completely stamp it out.

But, with content prior to raids, I believe Anet did a much better job discouraging and even actively combatting the issue – through all of the areas I mention in an earlier post. As a result of the raid model they are incorporating, it is now at a level that makes this game feel like those games a lot of us escaped to come here.

I think they could have employed the same level of creativity they used in those game modes in raids but were caught up in the need to quickly market a new mode of challenging content.

I also think it is not too late to implement revisions and adapt, thus the ongoing dialogue.

TexZero.7910:

Funny, what you claim to want….Is exactly what we have now.

Again, this is about opinion and degrees – which vary based on your perspective and how you play the game. Not everyone believes that what we have now is inclusive at all.

Harper.4173:

Blaeys.3102:

Almost no one on these forums is advocating removing hardcore content or saying that it shouldn’t be in the game. In fact, most go out of their way to say the opposite.

The argument is that, just because a game mode includes hardmode content doesn’t mean it can’t also offer a more casual experience – and that, in fact, by offering that experience alongside hardcore content, you will encourage more people to try it out, give devs a reason to continue making that content and give the truly casual players something fun to do as well.

I’m tired of people saying that anyone who criticizes the current raid model is immediately anti-hard content. It simply isn’t true.

To the topic at hand, the reason people are focusing on the 5 vs 10 player part of WP’s video is because that is a fairly new perspective that hasn’t been discussed – at great length – on these forums, whereas the rest of his points have (a lot).

I’ve seen countless criticisms to raids that go along the line of: “This is the casual MMO for non-hardcore people – where no hard content should exist – casual/bad players should be able to get everything and do everything because that’s what we think Anet wanted when they made GW2”.

They then back this up with “dungeons are easy” except they weren’t at the start and became easy because Anet dropped the ball in their implementation. Once people figured out how to do them they became easy.

The difference between dungeons (and fractals) and raids is this – yes dungeons were hard, but they were hard for the right reasons. They did not include mechanics specifically designed to completely discourage particular playstyles, builds and stat selections (some of which players enjoyed using since the start of the game).

Raids have some amazing mechanics, but the inclusion of enrage timers (even very forgiving enrage timers) creates artificial barriers to entry that don’t need to be there – and, more importantly, punishes people who choose to play differently than the accepted meta.

Early on, Anet focused on the right kind of mechanics to create difficulty – and those still exist in raids. But, by adding the artificial unnecessary barriers such as enrage timers, they tell those players that were enjoying those builds/playstyles for years that “you are playing the game wrong,” which I do not agree with and do not like.

And for the record, because I know I will get flack for the above, I think there is a way they could keep timers in the fights without completely limiting playstyles – just do not use them as definitive barriers to entry. Implement a gold/silver/bronze reward system that allocates reward based on kill speed.

Once again, it comes down to degrees and opinions about those degrees.

I – and many others – disagree with the statement:

TexZero.7910:

Anet has done a fantastic job at making the game inclusive to everyone, including as they have done with raids.

to varying degrees.

On the other side, you and many others feel raids are in a good spot – again to varying degrees.

I don’t think any side (and there are more than two) is being irrational – they are simply arguing the point from their own perspectives – which is why I am glad this conversation continues, and I am glad that most people, including you, are remaining civil and providing productive feedback.

In the end, it will come down to Anet, their vision for the game going forward and the weight they give the various arguments we are making here.

I do not think raids are in a good place. While I am raiding myself (and even enjoying the mechanics), I see a lot of people – both in my guild and in the community as a whole – who are effectively locked out of the gameplay due to their commitment level, desire to play an extremely non-meta build or general skill at the game (often due to age, disability or just lack of reflexes). I also see a lot of people put off by the barrier to entry, but who would still enjoy learning and experiencing the fights in a less stressful setup first. And, many of those people are my good friends – I want to play this content with those people.

I want a game in which all PVE modes are built first and foremost around the idea of community and accessibility, which Anet succeeded brilliantly in providing at launch a few years ago.

After that exists, I definitely want challenging content – throughout the game. I just don’t want it at the expense of the more important concepts of community and accessibility.

Now, I respect that you may disagree with that prioritization – and we are back to opinion and degrees – which make this conversation one of the more important on these forums right now (which accounts for my – and your – zeal to make sure our opinions are heard).

Setz.9675:

Rednik.3809:

Setz.9675:

The ‘badly designed entrance barrier’ is made by players, get a grip. I did VG with 0 LI, where can I collect my medal? You are talking about pug players here with ‘fairly high’ experience and don’t want to carry players or waste time sorting their kitten out. Is it extreme? Sure it is but this is not Anets fault nor is this how the majority of raiders work with. Stop projecting your pug experience as global raid community issues.

No. It’s EXCLUSIVELY Anet fault, big, huge, massive design fault, taken right from some ancient 10 years old WoW design document, because this is how community works in situation like this.
Lots of people who want to raid but too inexperienced, solid raider core who don’t give a kitten about them (why should they, there is no rewards after reset. Yeah, tell me about teaching guilds, which is 3 for WHOLE EU), and a pug crowd, with a 80 LI demand for VG run because they don’t want to see inexperienced guys.
But hey, this is not anet fault, that’s your fault, GW2 was advertised as game with a raiding PvE endgame from the very beginning, right?

I’m not a smart person but could you point out any game where players could not discriminate against others with regards to these sort of arbitrary requirements?

It really is a matter of degrees. Yes, there will be some of this in pretty much any MMO (and other life examples as well), but there is a point where it becomes considerably worse.

The example I would give you of a game that really discouraged this kind of behavior is pretty easy – GW2 at launch and during the first 3 years.

The developers went out of their way to address the more antisocial aspects of MMO game play. Shared resource nodes, individual loot tables (which other MMOs are now mimicking), scalable content from lvls 1-80, scalable dungeons, fractal levels, equalized gear in PvP, attempts to balance populations in WvW, quickly addressing toxic farming behavior, an accessible end game model, etc. – these were fairly new concepts with GW2 – mostly designed to combat the elitism we saw in other games.

That is what brought me (and many others) to this game. We were tired of someone who could kill a pixelated dragon a few seconds faster than someone else thinking that somehow made them a better person – and game systems that supported that distorted perspective.

Anet has always cared about keeping that kind of attitude out of the game – through game mechanics that discouraged or actively addressed them. The problem with raiding in GW2, imo, is that they didn’t apply that same filter to this content when building the foundational system, and now we are seeing the results.

There are some EXTREMELY creative people at ANet. It saddens me that they didn’t apply the same creativity to this in raids the same way they did to the rest of the game early on.

Rhaegar.1203:

BrotherBelial.3094:

But yes for the most part, your not really invested with the GW2 cast all that much, I don’t know why. Maybe it’s because I’m older.

I’m 32 and only until this year, I played The Last of Us; Sarah, Joel’s daughter appears only for about 15 minutes at the beginning of the game, and her fate practically moved me to tears.

15 minutes in.

Talk about characterization done right. Take Belinda Delaqua. She’s introduced in one episode and killed off the next. Disposable character, no emotional impact, no nothing. Eir’s death was better executed, but still.

I don’t think it is a matter of maturity, rather than execution/writing.

People keep bringing this up, but I don’t think it is bad writing at all. In this situation, the writer wasn’t counting on our connection to Belinda, but rather to Marjorie. We don’t necessarily mourn the loss of a secondary character, but we feel for our ally who just lost their sister – and we are forced to think about how her grieving impacts the group dynamic.

People are so desensitized by the GRRM method of dramatically killing people we care about that they often miss the more subtle (and better written, imo) tragedies in many narratives.

OriOri.8724:

Some content needs to be challenging and only challenging.

Obviously, there are many who disagree with this statement.

Providing multiple difficulty tiers in no way alters the harder experience – and I firmly believe that most hardcore players are mature enough to not feel that something someone else is doing in a completely different instance – that they acknowledge isn’t as demanding – someone diminishes their accomplishment.

It’s either out of selfishness or some silly grade school playground “you can’t play with my toys” complex.

The answer, imo, is to turn them into guild missions once they are no longer part of the story.

Place triggers at the locations and include them in the PVE guild mission rotation. That way, they stay in the game and you ensure that, when they are triggered, there is an organized force there to deal with them.

Btw, I’ve always hoped they would bring Marionette and a few other similar events from season one back in this same fashion.

Almost no one on these forums is advocating removing hardcore content or saying that it shouldn’t be in the game. In fact, most go out of their way to say the opposite.

The argument is that, just because a game mode includes hardmode content doesn’t mean it can’t also offer a more casual experience – and that, in fact, by offering that experience alongside hardcore content, you will encourage more people to try it out, give devs a reason to continue making that content and give the truly casual players something fun to do as well.

I’m tired of people saying that anyone who criticizes the current raid model is immediately anti-hard content. It simply isn’t true.

To the topic at hand, the reason people are focusing on the 5 vs 10 player part of WP’s video is because that is a fairly new perspective that hasn’t been discussed – at great length – on these forums, whereas the rest of his points have (a lot).

TexZero.7910:

So why should Anet, pander to you guys when the people who are currently raiding, have been able to use the tools available to them to prove that there are barriers except those you impose upon yourself.

Because it’s not pandering – it is making a logical compromise to meet a customer and a community desire. It is also expanding the game mode to include more players and, potentially, generate greater interest in raiding – thereby creating a greater pool of potential lfg (and static group) raiders (helping fix what many see as the biggest issues with raids now).

Absurdo.8309:

Blaeys.3102:

It’s about accessibility and cohesion with the rest of GW2 endgame.

As long as one piece of the puzzle – that includes story (however slight) – is designed for a smaller subset of the PVE population, there is no way to tell the story and provide a big picture experience that logically fits together.

The reality is raids do not fit well with the original vision of this game. All you have to do is look at early articles, blogs, etc, from the developers to see that even they believed that.

I’m glad raids are here – I’m glad there is challenging content – but if they plan to continue developing raids, they need to fix this underlying problem – which means making them more accessible to players of all kinds, including those not interested in meta builds, who are less skilled and who simply do not want to invest the time raiders do into the minutia of their characters.

This is not a little thing – it is potentially destructive to the GW2 endgame experience, imo. We can only hope they understand this – and that someone there remembers some of those core tenants that made the game so popular at launch – the reason many of us left those raid heavy games to come here (and bring our communities here).

Yes, arah explorable and aetherpath destroyed the very fabric of guild wars 2.

No, wait, it was ok to have story elements behind hard content.

You keep bringing this up, but neither Arah nor Aetherpath rely on enrage timers – so neither of those examples really punish players for using non-meta builds or playstyles. They are still accessible – with the same chance of success – regardless of gear, builds and playstyles. That is one of the things that makes that content superior to raids – it is purely about skill rather than overcoming the artificial barriers those timers enforce (now whether or not they were difficult enough is debatable). Again, I’m not against difficult content.

The analogy/comparison just doesn’t work.

This shouldn’t even be a consideration. Raids should be considered part of the living world.

But, as long as the developers insist on developing them specifically for a subset of the PVE population, they will never be considered part of the story (even tangentially).

The developers forgot something important between the games launch and today. They forgot that GW2 endgame is supposed to be cohesive and accessible to everyone. Just look at early interviews.

They need to get back to that philosophy. They can add in challenging content (and should – throughout the game), but not at the expense of that vision.

It’s about accessibility and cohesion with the rest of GW2 endgame.

As long as one piece of the puzzle – that includes story (however slight) – is designed for a smaller subset of the PVE population, there is no way to tell the story and provide a big picture experience that logically fits together.

The reality is raids do not fit well with the original vision of this game. All you have to do is look at early articles, blogs, etc, from the developers to see that even they believed that.

I’m glad raids are here – I’m glad there is challenging content – but if they plan to continue developing raids, they need to fix this underlying problem – which means making them more accessible to players of all kinds, including those not interested in meta builds, who are less skilled and who simply do not want to invest the time raiders do into the minutia of their characters.

This is not a little thing – it is potentially destructive to the GW2 endgame experience, imo. We can only hope they understand this – and that someone there remembers some of those core tenants that made the game so popular at launch – the reason many of us left those raid heavy games to come here (and bring our communities here).

Sird.4536:

Blaeys.3102:

Raiding as it is now is not well received by the majority of players (that is my opinion, btw, but it is based on what I see in game talking to people) – and, even if they don’t post here, there is a good bit of animosity toward them.

Not well received because those people can’t find a group or guild, got nothing to do with the encounters or story or whatever in the instance.

I agree. The problem is not the mechanical design of the raids, which are well done.

It is an accessibility and overarching design issue. And one I think they need to fix before starting development on any new raids. They need to use some of the amazing creativity and new MMO thinking we saw in so many areas at launch to make raiding a true cohesive part of the GW2 experience.

DutchRiders.2871:

You do realise most of the segmented games you are talking about do in fact focus mainly on raiding and have implemented a tiered raid system?

If we want better open world stuff, create better open world maps. If we want a mixture of difficulties among raid bosses create different bosses. It keeps things interesting, the tiered system never worked for me.

The point is that ArenaNet is better than what we got with this raid. They have a history of turning MMO systems on their head – making the inaccessible accessible – and still fun.

Yet, now they are implementing the same tired model and concept they said they never would. Where is the creative approach? Where is the unique GW2 spin on raids?

Raiding as it is now is not well received by the majority of players (that is my opinion, btw, but it is based on what I see in game talking to people) – and, even if they don’t post here, there is a good bit of animosity toward them. That is because they simply do not fit with GW2 – they are a drastic break from how the rest of the game is presented and played.

I agree with people who say new content is better than retrofitting old, but at the same time, I believe future raids need to take this into consideration. Anet needs to use the same level of creativity they did at launch (and when coming up with new systems like elite specs or mastery lines) to create a more open raiding experience that fits with the rest of the game (as they stated was the goal before launch) – while still finding a way to offer the optional challenge level people desire.

I don’t care if it’s tiered difficulties, challenge/training/story motes or some new creative concept that seems crazy at first – it needs to happen.

They are better than what they have produced.

I think there is a still a fairly big question that they can answer now – and that is, what is Living World and what isn’t.

Which of the following do they consider to be potential content for one of these living world updates and which is outside the scope (and which are reserved for expansions):

• Open World Maps
• World Bosses
• Fractal Islands
• Guild Missions
• Adventures
• New Mastery Lines
• Collections
• Elite Specializations
• Weapon and Armor Skins
• Jumping Puzzles
• Guild Hall Upgrades and Decorations

Is there anything missing from this list?

I would be very interested in what we can expect with these LS updates. Just as importantly, for those pieces that aren’t considered living story, what are they doing to make sure they aren’t neglected completely (for example, we haven’t had new PVE guild missions in more than 3 years).

There is a lot of potential in this new model, but if living world is nothing more than a dozen story short instances every year, it really isn’t what is needed. We need a better idea of what is and isn’t included.

Someone on Reddit pasted a quote from an article Rubi Bayer wrote back in 2012 ( https://www.engadget.com/2012/01/23/flameseeker-chronicles-we-dont-need-no-stinkin-endgame/ ) that read as follows:

‘No endgame/no raiding is perceived by a lot of people as “nothing left to do once you reach level cap.” It’s understandable because we’ve been taught to think that way by a lot of developers over the years. Once you get to the end, that’s where the really good stuff is, so hurry!

There might be something epic at the end; we don’t know. The development team might go nuts at some point in the future and decide to bring Bubbles out of the shadows as a 250-man instanced raid. We don’t know. We can speculate until the cows come home, but (say it with me) we don’t know. Until then, let’s just appreciate what Jon said. ArenaNet doesn’t want to give us a game that completely and fundamentally changes once you reach endgame. If the team did that, it would mean that once you reach endgame, either you do not have the game you paid for in the first place or you do not have the game you paid for until you reach endgame. I don’t know about you, but neither of those options is appealing to me. I’ll take the entertainment I paid for right out of the gate, thank you!’

This hit home for me. It reminded me of why I bought GW2 and fell in love with the game in the first place. The idea that the entire game is end game – that the raiding model from other games simply isn’t needed to instill a sense of accomplishment and fun.

It really feels like Anet has forgotten why a lot of people left those other games to come here – or why so many non MMO players decided this would be their first. Somewhere along the way, they stopped trying to do something new and decided to copy/paste the same tired end game every one of those other games uses.

I’m tired of fighting against the tide – of trying to regain a little of that amazing game we had in those first years – but I’m not going to stop, because I still think it is worth the effort. I can only hope that Anet isn’t so jaded or worried about the next expansion that they ignore these pleas. We need to know that the spirit of the game showcased in the quotes above and that we saw early on still drive the game’s development. We need to know that community and an open inviting game are still important to them.

Raids can still be a part of that picture, but this stagnant, stale and uninspired model they are using goes against everything they said in the early days – and really feels like they have just given up and committed themselves to being another me-too in the MMO space. With the way they have implemented them, they are doing exactly what they said they would not – fundamentally change the way people play at endgame. Worse, they are segmenting the community in much the same way we see in all of those other MMOs.

I know that sounds harsh, but it’s something they need to hear.

Leezy.4567:

Toxicity or not, Answer why do you care? Beyond GW2 and into real life you are going to meet “toxic” people, Again you are giving the exact same choice even in real life itself! ignore and move on! Pick who you game with / Pick who you hang out with.

The conversation in this thread is about the future of raids, So I will tab into it

Raids don’t need an easy mode, Raids as is are already in “medium-easy” mode, Strats, comps, non-meta builds you name it have all been made. The material is there, If you want to learn it yourself? Well then find 9 others to do it, like everyone else did.

The future of raids should be the maintain the current level of difficulty, And keeping on track with the extra challenging AP challenge mote to make it harder, However they should extend it beyond that and allow you to earn more reward (weekly, same as a normal rewards) by doing the harder version.

I will even add, As anet themselves has posted on these forums, If any raid related story is ever relevant to story beyond the raid itself, they will make the information accessible to everyone.

Thank you for stepping back and making a very well reasoned and thoughtful response about this topic.

You make some very good points. In fact, you and I agree on one thing completely – Anet should definitely continue to make hardcore versions of the raid. I even like the idea of making them harder through motes/challenges/etc for those who have already mastered them.

Where we differ in opinion is when we talk about opening the raid up in the other direction.

Along with a challenge mote, what if they offered a “training” mote (or story mote, but I think training would be a better use of dev resources) – that groups could trigger to see a toned down version of the fight (with SIGNIFICANTLY lower rewards)?

I think that would fix the issues I have with story, impact on community and accessibility – as well as potentially get more people involved in raids – including many who would take the step past the training mote to become full fledged members of the harder core raiding community. That would give people like you (and me too, believe it or not) a deeper pool of people to raid with as the game mode thrives into the future (which is definitely something I want to see).

I always keep mission control open for everyone in my guild. That way, after our official guild mission night, anyone that had to miss can get personal credit easier and small groups wanting to do something fun (6 man puzzles are interesting) can do so.

A word of warning though – that same permission also allows members to alter the mission type for the coming week. Someone in my guild accidently did this a few weeks back, which kept us from doing the missions we wanted that week.

Just something to keep an eye on, especially in a larger guild. It would be nice if those permissions were separated on the interface, but I understand the need to keep it simple as well.

TexZero.7910:

Rednik.3809:

TexZero.7910:

Because talking to other players is super difficult……

It’s almost like those allegedly exclusive guilds aren’t recruiting or something…..Oh wait reddit/gw2 forums and even in game daily there’s adverts for guilds.

According to reddit survey, there is like total 40+% players who want to try raiding. If raid teaching is so widely accessible, then why these numbers are so high? It’s not like people have problems to join WvW/PvP/general PvE guilds, but suddenly all of them are too lazy to find a raid one? Why there is so many threads, topics and posts here and on reddit, under literally EVERY dev post?
Your logic is not working here.

It’s 100 times easier to complain about the process than actually take an effort to change the problem yourself.

Source, any “Functional Society”.

There’s an old adage “Those who can do, Those who can’t teach”….I think it’s time to update that for the 21st century. “Those who can do; Those who can’t, teach and Those that wont, complain.”

One of the most time tested methods of changing something – or solving a problem – is through civil discourse and conversation. While that may be perceived (and may even be) complaining, it doesn’t change that fact.

Open dialogue and civil discourse are the cornerstones of change. Let the conversation continue – make your points saliently and even passionately – but don’t say that having the conversation – with both sides represented – is a bad thing. It is the whole point of having a forum.

There is a small group of people in the community – both here and on reddit – who are intent on derailing this conversation. They do so through personal attacks on other posters, condescending language about anyone posting something they don’t fully agree with (and often at non-raiders as a group).

And, it is the same people over and over. One of them even came after me in game to belittle me through personal attacks.

And, yes, a death threat is an example of toxicity. As is the namecalling in the reddit post I linked. I’m not making this stuff up – and having someone try to shame me into not posting or continuing the discussion (which I try to do very civilly as much as possible) is just a further example of the very toxicity I’m talking about.

I would like to get past it. There are a few people on these forums (Absurdo, Vinceman, Issic and many others) who are willing to have a civil discussion about this topic, even though we obviously disagree.

To others, please stop with the personal attacks – both publically and through private messages. It adds nothing to the conversation – and really only serves to prove my point about the continued toxicity raiding brings to the community.

Neox.3497:

Uhhm…

Blaeys.3102:

And, because it needs to be said – if someone makes a death threat against someone’s family in this game and it is reported, they deserve a permanent ban from the game – even if Anet hasn’t done so in the past. That is just common decency and common sense. Arguing against that doesn’t make a bit of sense whatsoever.

And I stand by that – if it happened in game, it is worthy of a permaban (and I think Anet would agree).

What I meant was I wasn’t calling for permabanning anyone specific – not even the person that made the reddit post I linked.

My original point was that it is very hard for people to post in these types of threads now because of the toxicity – and looking at the examples Ive seen the past week, I think I have proven that point.

dagrdagaz.4913:

In regards to the tiger pet, what exactly does the meta event unlock?
The area they spawn in, the WP’s or tameable tigers?

Cos perhaps i got lucky. Only recently i got HoT.
As soon as I got me into Dragon’s Stand i noticed all WP’s were contested. Out of curiosity i walked to were the tameable tigers should be, and they were there!
So i tamed my tiger pet :-)

This thread was necro’ed. Back when it was first posted (7 months ago), you couldn’t get to that area unless the event was completed first. They changed that with the last quarterly update.

It is a little harder to get a good DS map with the reduced population (which is a result of many things – not all negative – including summer, other games, and – of course – the content drought).

Still, if you keep an eye on the timer, you can often get on a good map, even now.

If the raids themselves were more accessible and open to different playstyles, this entire issue would be moot. They would have been considered part of the actual content release cycle rather than some side project meant for “those players over there.”

This is a self imposed issue that Anet brought on themselves and they deserve to be criticized for it.

Vinceman.4572:

Ok, then let’s delete PvP first.

This isn’t a discussion about PvP – because there is no real solution there. The competitive nature of that content is critical to the success of the game mode. That isn’t true in PVE.

And, once again, no one is talking about deleting anything.

Vinceman.4572:

Dude, I have seen such things in every other game and with way harder “verbal fights”. And it has always been existed at this level. This level isn’t even high.
Again, you are painting a dramatic picture which is non-existent.

Agreed, other games are much worse – which is part of my point.

Let’s look at how we can keep GW2 from becoming as toxic as those games. My belief, after years of playing all of those games, is that it comes from unnecessary division in the playerbase. Segmenting players based on skill/commitment level and giving them their own area of the game has a negative segmenting effect on the community. All of those other games you reference are exhibit A (and my examples would be exhibit B ).

Raids are not toxic in and of themselves. It is the “this is where I get to play and you cant unless you do exactly what I do” mentality.

Variable difficulty raids would retain the difficulty, but remove the segmentation, which, again, is the root of the issue.

Will negativity persist in the game? Of course it will. That doesn’t mean we shouldn’t look for ways to lessen it and keep the scorn/jealousy that infect other games out of GW2 as much as possible.

Absurdo.8309:

But your view is far more divisive.

I’m not advocating removing anything from the game. What I am advocating is a compromise that removes – to a degree – the segmentation of content that raids have brought to the game.

And I don’t think that anything I have said is even close to the level of division illustrated in the examples I posted – one of which, again, is a death threat (how do you get more divisive than that?).

I respect when people argue civilly, which you yourself tend to do most of the time. I do think your comment about “bad guild” was in poor taste and a byproduct of a raiding community mentality, but I do not think you yourself intended to be insulting. You know how to argue civilly – and I look forward to continuing the conversation with people like yourself.

However, that isn’t going to stop me from shining a light on those who – as a result of the same raiding community mentality – take it way too far. And, unfortunately, we will only start seeing more and more of those kinds of people – both in game and out – imo.

And I realize that people on both sides take it too far. It doesn’t change the fact that it is a byproduct of raids in their current form. Reacting out of jealousy creates a negative environment that isn’t as bad as the one created by those reacting out of derision or scorn, but it still creates a less friendly environment in game – one that Anet can help fix by adjusting the source of the division to be more open to different types of players.

Vinceman.4572:

I repeat myself again but it’s needed:

People are like this in fractals.

People are like this in dungeons.

People are like this in open world.

People are like this in WvW.

People are like this in PvP. (Oh yes, they hell are! ^^)

People are like this in achievement groups, for example LS2 achievements.

Don’t attach “toxicity” or insulting players to raids. That isn’t true at all. You find such players everywhere and definitely not contentrated around raids.
In my opinion the raid playerbase is much more helpful with build hints, gear issues, tactics than any other playerbase. I’ve never learned more than from speedrunners, highly-addicted dungeon and fractal players and raiders.
Even in open world chat you get at least one ironic, sarcastic or a useless answer if asking a question.

That is why I included examples of the toxicity in my replies. Yes, a bit of this existed before, but never at this level. You can choose to not believe that or not see it, but I do.

Which makes it a matter of opinion. I realize that. That is why it is important to have the conversation openly on the forums. So that the community – and ANet – see both sides of the issue.

Absurdo.8309:

Rednik.3809:

Absurdo.8309:

A general-purpose pve guild that doesn’t organize interested raiders is not successful.

How is this statement toxic?

Because raids are not general-purpose pve?

In a 500 person pve guild, they are.

And, as I repeat in every thread this is brought up, the context of that statement was a poster who was complaining that he couldn’t find people to raid with in his guild. Even though there were interested raiders. That makes a bad guild, in my opinion.

Really, toxic is such an overused term.

I agree that toxic is an overused term, but it definitely fits here. Again, look at the examples above( https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Future-of-Raids/page/2#post6237796 ) – and, if still needed, here is a link to another (REALLY NSFW) example -

https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/4s58i2/woodenpotatoes_waiting_on_season_3_the_content/d57iwdh

This level of nastiness – and the death threat I received (attached to the earlier response in this thread) – are examples of toxic behavior. If they aren’t, then that word doesn’t apply to anything, imo.

This is a systemic problem that can be tied directly to how they chose to implement raids in this game. When you purposefully build content for a small segment of the PVE population, it will result in a segmented population.

When that segmentation is based on perceived skill or commitment levels, then you end up with part of the population feeling superior/scornful (looking down on non raiders) and another part feeling jealously (people who feel bad because they cannot experience the fights).

Neither is good for the game or the community.

Please don’t let this derail the thread, but it is worth pointing out, once again, that compelling interactive storytelling of this nature is exactly why (one of the reasons, actually) the accessibility of the raid to players with a wider range of playstyles/skill/commitment levels is so very very important.

This is something that should be done in an area of the game where everyone interested in story can participate in (not just read about or see) the content without having to compromise how they enjoy playing the game. If raids are not going to be designed with that in mind (and they should be), then this doesn’t belong in the raid.

Again, don’t let this derail the thread and discussion about story – just wanted to insert another friendly reminder of the above point of view.

Vinceman.4572:

You are painting a dramatic picture which is not even there for a second.

I guess it is a matter of opinion regarding what should and should not be seen as acceptable content.

I see it as extreme – and definitely enhanced since raiding came into the game – and you do not.

As Ive mentioned many times in these threads, this is an issue of degrees. There is not right or wrong, no black or white. It comes down to where we draw the line in regard to concepts such as accessibility, hardcore vs casual or what is and isn’t acceptable behavior.

I see raids in their current form creating a wide range of negative issues, from the shift in the community’s behavior to how they deliver story to creating soft barriers that simply don’t need to be there.

All of this can be fixed with a simple (hopefully) variable difficulty model – just like the ones we see in almost every other MMO offering raiding out there – as well as in the rest of the GW2 PVE experience.

And, because it needs to be said – if someone makes a death threat against someone’s family in this game and it is reported, they deserve a permanent ban from the game – even if Anet hasn’t done so in the past. That is just common decency and common sense. Arguing against that doesn’t make a bit of sense whatsoever.

As others have noted, compromise indicates some give and take. When they incorporate variable difficulty into raiding (and they do need to), they will need to compromise the rewards players receive as well – that just makes sense.

The key is a variable difficulty/variable rewards model akin to gold/silver/bronze from open world, scaling rewards based on fractal levels, prestigious rewards for reaching the pinnacle of PVP content, etc. It is – and always has been – a part of the GW2 experience.

I firmly believe they can retain the prestige of being a higher level raider while still offering a more casual experience for the greater population – and that variable rewards based on the effort exerted/skill displayed are a part of that.

I do disagree that the raid fights – at any difficulty level – should be faceroll piñatas with no mechanics, as part of the experience should be a lower stress environment for those wanting to gradually ease their way into higher level raiding. For that reason – and because I think many would actually find the mechanics (at lower scaling) fun, I prefer the idea of variable difficulties to a pure “story mode.” Part of the experience (and one of the things that make them good content) is the cool boss mechanics the team came up with.

And, of course, the stat combinations should be accessible through other game modes – that also makes sense (and I believe is something they have already said they plan to do).

DutchRiders.2871:

Blaeys.3102:

• One of the biggest issues with the current model of raiding is that it brings these kinds of attitudes to GW2. Anyone that has played a raiding centric game has seen it there and knows that, until now, it has remained fairly calm in GW2. Things are changing, imo, because – when you start to build different parts of the PVE game for different communities based on skill/commitment time/willingness to conform to a meta, you end up with animosity between those communities (with scorn/disdain on one side and jealousy on the other).

Spot on, people are jealous. The problem with raids is that they are the best piece of content arenanet has created for gw2.

While I’m not sure I would call them the best content ever created for the game, I agree that they are very well done – and, as you note, that creates a problem.

Endgame in this game has never been about raiding. In fact, they made a huge point early on of the fact that they wanted endgame and leveling to feel pretty much the same – they didn’t want people to suddenly start doing something new at endgame that felt like a different game – and that was a great goal.

The idea that raiding has be only for the elite or dedicated players is contrived and patently false. They need to go back to focusing on content that meets the need of the community as a whole (and raids could do this with tiered difficulty) – and then make sure there is sufficient challenge for the varied audiences in game.

Also, you only quoted half the problem. The jealousy on one side is actually overshadowed by the bigger problem – that raids create a class of players that begin to look down on the rest of the game – to belittle and deride those who don’t raid. Even your response here makes it seem as if you are somehow proud that people are jealous of the experience you have access to. That really isn’t good for the game.

Raiding in its current form creates barriers in the community and nastiness that have no place in the GW2 we played for the first few years. Just look at the examples I provided – and definitely at the message from reddit I attached.