Guild Wars 2

IndigoSundown.5419:

HoT was advertised to provide what Anet thought was a lot of content for persistent world PvE, plus a story. It also promised 3 raid wings, which equal 1 complete raid, delivered over several months. Would the ones complaining about “only” getting raids have wanted that HoT content delivered over time instead of all at once? That’s what happened with raids. Raiders are just now getting the rest of the raid while persistent PvE players got their content all at once.

Complain all you want about the ANet release cadence. That’s a beef I can understand. However, when you complain about raids getting a fraction of a raid over time, you should also be asking for paid persistent PvE expansion content to be parceled out in dribs and drabs rather than all at once.

#what’sgoodforthegoose

True, but there was a lot of other content left aside with the HOT expansion – most notably (but not limited to) fractals and PVE guild missions. I would have rather seen any ongoing efficient resources used to further that content, which has a broader appeal, than seeing it focused on raids.

Again, raiding has a place, but it is far less important to the feel and playability of the game (admittedly, for many of us but not all) than things like fractals and guild-focused activities (again, just an opinion).

Astralporing.1957:

Blaeys.3102:

Tayledras.1604:

Having just seen the teaser I am now a 30 year old man fangirling like crazy because of the story implications on display here.

SO HYPED FOR LIVING STORY SEASON 3!

Agreed. The most exciting thing about this announcement for many of us is that it means we will hopefully see actual LS content soon after the 14th.

Where did you get that, because i saw no mention of LS whatsoever?

That’s why I said hopefully. What they did say was that we wouldn’t see new living story until after the third raid wing. New raid wing means we can start looking forward to that content at some point in the next few months (again, hopefully).

Tayledras.1604:

Having just seen the teaser I am now a 30 year old man fangirling like crazy because of the story implications on display here.

SO HYPED FOR LIVING STORY SEASON 3!

Agreed. The most exciting thing about this announcement for many of us is that it means we will hopefully see actual LS content soon after the 14th.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

These are the things released in the quarterly updates. As their name implies they are released 4 times a year. The next one is in August, and should include the next chapter of living story.

Raids, PvP and WvW updates are done in smaller monthly updates using smaller teams. For instance out of the 300 devs working on GW2, about half are working on the next expansion, about 100 are working on the things you mention above, and only 5 are working on raids. So yes, nearly 295 devs are working on non-raid content.

I would much rather the teams focus on things like new guild missions, dynamic events and fractals – pushing those out more frequently while raiding takes a back seat. If the smaller team focused on raids is more efficient – as many propose – then I would rather they applied that efficiency to something with broader appeal. Fractals come to mind first, but they aren’t the only area I would rather see prioritized over raids (we haven’t seen new PVE guild missions in 2+ years for example).

I firmly believe those types of content have a broader audience and fit with the flow and design philosophy of GW2 much better than raiding ever will.

The biggest issue with the expansion, imo, was that they spent way too much energy trying to entice new categories of players to the game and, at least partially, neglected their long term supporters and fans.

This was an expansion with no new guild missions, no new fractals, one new pvp map. Even open world had an issue. While the open world stuff was (and still is for me) fun, it suffered because it wasn’t deep enough to actually count as a full expansion – resources were split off to things obviously intended to bring in new audiences (most notably raids).

It pains me to say this, because I love this game – but if they rush another expansion now without building on core game elements, the game population will (probably slowly at first) begin to dwindle.

This expansion was marketed as building base systems that would then be built upon – quicker implementation of events, fractals, guild missions (a dev even said "I’m excited to see what our team will do with missions in the HOT zones in a video just prior to launch).

We haven’t seen any of these things and they are already talking about rushing out another expansion. We can only hope that the people actually developing the game see the reality of the situation.

Anet has no business even saying the word expansion for at least a year and half, imo. They have more important work to do.

There is nothing inherently wrong with raiding. In my opinion, the problem comes from how raids were implemented into GW2. Raiding could have been an amazing extension of the game that offered new experiences and story telling capabilities for the community as a whole. Instead, they chose to use raids to entice a new kind of player to the game.

While that was probably successful to a small degree – and did offer them a new bullet point for news releases related to “elite endgame content” it also served to change the feel of GW2’s end game. The dev’s insistence on exclusivity and lack of any other content for months following the release of HOT created a division among players that didn’t exist in the first 3 years the game existed.

I raid. I enjoy raiding. However, I also see the negative impact the way they have chosen to implement raids has had on both the larger community and sub communities such as guilds.

I know I will be attacked because of these comments. Back and forth on this has already caused devs to close 2 threads – which should tell them all they need to know about the toxicity raids in their current incarnation are bringing to the game. However, it needs to be said – and changes need to be made.

Raiding can be an amazing part of GW2’s future, but only if dev’s fully realize their potential. We have easy to hard content for single players, 5 person parties and even (debatably) open world (thinking of triple trouble). It works in those situations because they didn’t choose to focus any of those modes on a small group of players.

The key is to offer as wide a range of experiences within a game mode as possible. I would even argue they could make harder (much harder) content in open world, single player and open world – solely because they have the systems in place to vary that experience across the player base.

The only PVE mode where they have chosen to not do this is in raids – and that has created the toxicity we see (both in game an on these forums). It’s time they realized this and fixed it.

I think there is some lost potential in our guild halls, but I also think Anet has done a pretty good job keeping things fresh through both holiday decorations (including the SAB stuff) and a few minor new additions (OoW globe).

What I would like to see are more interactive decorations and elements. We recently crafted the gramophone, for instance, and realized you can turn it off and on. Things like this make the hall feel more alive.

Additionally, functional upgrades or placeable items would be very welcome. Personally, I would love the ability to build/place the new DPS test golems they added with the last major patch into our guild hall – giving us a little testing area of our own.

Finally, one element of the guild hall I think they did the poorest job on is the PvP arena. It is too small, has no spectator capabilities and is extremely limited in terms of obstacle placements (too many decorations in this area ). Just after the expansion, they mentioned they were working on a bigger, possibly instanced area accessible from the hall for the purpose of gvg or, in my guild’s case, just random pvp killing fun (and Asuraball – which my guild used to love doing). I really hope that plan is still on the table.

And finally finally (sorry), I do agree that the decoration cap on the hall itself feels really low. I understand this is a technical limitation, but I would love to see them overcome this. I love that my guild has a place that we can decorate and make our own.

Chronomancer in a mix of Berserker and Commander’s gear with Runes of the Chronomancer (chronotank – primarily for raids, but find it useful in most other game modes as well).

Really fun playstyle.

Turin.6921:

Blaeys.3102:

I enjoy the challenge and difficulty of raiding. I have no issue putting the time and effort into maximizing my character’s potential.

But, I also see the division and damage this raid model can cause to the game I love. I ask that people put aside the fear that easier modes would somehow damage their experience for just a sec and consider how a more accessible raiding model would add to the overall experience.

Accessibility can be achieved/improved without removing the challenge people (including me) want – and it would only make the overall experience better, give them more incentive to develop future raids and create a friendlier gameplay environment.

Wanting a more robust and inclusive system doesn’t mean I do not want difficult content in the game. In fact (as I have said before), I would love to see the rest of the game include more challenge as well. For example, I would to see what the current raid dev team would do if asked to revamp the swamp fractal (or any other) for level 100 and up.

The goal is big picture – a breadth of experience for as many players as possible. The systems exist in game to make that happen. Not using those systems, imo, is bad design and needs to be addressed.

You never really give any argument about accessibility beside that some people cannot be good enough, when the actual stats from Anet show exactly the opposite…

And you even argue that the very thing that make them more accessible (the lack of the treadmill) make it less accessibly. You are making walls of text and you are saying absolutely nothing that has meaning. You are like politician on election day.

With all respect, I don’t think you are actually reading the posts (or I’m not communicating well enough – which is also a possibility).

This is about creating a robust experience for as many players as possible – it isn’t about taking anything away from anyone. That includes skill levels, but it also includes playstyles and even stat choices. And, AGAIN, I am not advocating removing the reward from those who put in the most effort, adhere to the meta and min/max to a degree. I am advocating a wider range of experience to include a wider range of PVE players. That can only be good for the game.

VERY IMPORTANT – we need to try and avoid making this into an argument. Be careful about arguing against the actual poster directly or trying to assign some kind of hidden agenda. Instead, let’s make this a debate. Make your points based on what you want to see in the game and provide counter points against the points I am making rather than against me directly (discuss the points in the post – not the posters themselves). If you go back and read my posts, you will see that I include specific points (including an example of how I think it would work) to back up the accessibility stance.

I enjoy the challenge and difficulty of raiding. I have no issue putting the time and effort into maximizing my character’s potential.

But, I also see the division and damage this raid model can cause to the game I love. I ask that people put aside the fear that easier modes would somehow damage their experience for just a sec and consider how a more accessible raiding model would add to the overall experience.

Accessibility can be achieved/improved without removing the challenge people (including me) want – and it would only make the overall experience better, give them more incentive to develop future raids and create a friendlier gameplay environment.

Wanting a more robust and inclusive system doesn’t mean I do not want difficult content in the game. In fact (as I have said before), I would love to see the rest of the game include more challenge as well. For example, I would to see what the current raid dev team would do if asked to revamp the swamp fractal (or any other) for level 101 and up. There is no reason 5 player (or even single player) encounters cannot be just a brutal as raid fights.

The goal is big picture – a breadth of experience for as many players as possible. The systems exist in game to make that happen. Not using those systems, imo, is bad design and needs to be addressed.

Turin.6921:

This whole point of accessibility is pointless. It is supposed to be difficult content that requires strategy and team work. In every game on the planet that requires strategy, optimal systems will emerge and people will demand those optimal configuration , especially when you first learn the game.

Its like complaining that chess is problematic because has typical opening strategies that work better than others and that you should be able do play as you want and not follow the optimal strategies and still win.

If it is a game and is reasonably difficult and has rules optimal configurations will emerge ALWAYS and you will be playing it wrong if you do not follow them without having a better counter-proposal. The idea of ¨play as you want¨ freedom in this case does not exist unless you make them pushovers, basically canceling the whole point.

Also the comparison to other games is ridiculous. Compared to other games raiding in GW2 is already more accessible as shown by stats Anet themselves gave, exactly because of the lack of a gear treadmill. Everyone can access them as long as knows the optimal builds and plays them with reasonable skill.

Yes, GW2 is more accessible and fun due to the lack of a treadmill – which makes it ironic that the same mechanic has actually had the opposite effect on raiding (making it less accessible).

The problem is the devs carbon copied raiding from other games without taking this into account and implementing a GW2 solution or mechanic to address the issue (such as the tiered reward based on time of kill I posit).

That is EXACTLY why I say that raiding was poorly implemented and not fully thought out in GW2. I do hate comparisons to other games, but in this situation, because they adhered so closely to the raiding philosophy from those games (raiding = hardest content), I think it is a needed comparison.

All MMOs other than GW2 take accessibility into consideration in their core raid system design. It is ironic (and sad) that the one MMO that is typically the most accessible (GW2) forgets to add this important (regardless of what the more elitist players want to believe) element.

The problem with raiding in GW2 is that the core raiding system in this game is very poorly designed. More importantly, it is designed counter to every other PVE element of the game – and that comes down to accessibility.

My solution is simply to do away with the enrage timers and replace them with the gold/silver/bronze reward model (in line with the rest of the game) based on how fast you kill.

But, then you get people on the forums who cry “raiding shouldn’t be for everyone” (ridiculous – and, again, counter to everything they have done in game since day one) or "they are super easy in all blues/masterworks/etc now, so there is no need to change (anyone actually raiding realizes the faulty logic at play in that statement).

And, then there is my favorite – but raiding works in other games. Anyone who has actually raided in other games (and I have for more than a decade now) knows that raiding works in other games because the gear treadmill creates an artificial layering of accessibility. The content IS designed for all players (without reducing difficulty) simply because the treadmill will eventually make it less restrictive to their level of play.

Obviously, the treadmill answer cannot (and NEVER SHOULD) be implemented into GW2 raiding, but that does create an issue with regard to accessibility.

First, to all the players saying that all raiding experiences should give the same reward. That is every bit as silly as those saying raiding should be exclusive. It simply doesn’t fit with the design of the game. You put in more work or effort, your reward should reflect that. That is pervasive through every part of the current game and it should be the same in raids.

To the other side, again, however, that doesn’t mean that raiding cannot be designed with a wider audience in mind (just as they do in every other MMO out there).

To add to my idea of gold/silver/bronze, the reason I think it would work is directly related to build/profession/skill diversity (the biggest issue with forming raid groups with friends now). It would make raids more accessible to players in a wider range of gear or playstyles (which, no matter what ANYONE says, is a good thing). Just as importantly, it would do so without taking away the difficult experience or slightly different reward of those putting in more effort.

I know there are people who will still try to find a way to argue that “raids are mine – not yours” or “it’s easy enough. learn to play” but these arguments do not change the fact that GW2 raiding, in its current state, is designed counter to every other part of this game – and that is a problem they need to fix soon.

I think Anet knows better than to create or advance too robust a story in raids where very few will experience them. It would be the “have to have a party to face Zhaitan” situation we saw emerge at game launch only a hundred times more pronounced (and maybe even justifiable this time around).

As far as raiding lore, the only thing of note is some White Mantle involvement in raids, but that is most likely a (very minor) prelude to open world/living story content dropping later this year. Anything more than that would invariably cause unnecessary tension in the community.

TexZero.7910:

Astralporing.1957:

But i am interested in fun. Raids as they are now are not fun. Easy mode would be so much better.

You can’t accurately measure fun. What is fun for you is boring for others, and therefore irrelevant to the discussion.

Is it fun is really the only important question in a game like this.

And, yes, you are right in that “fun” means different things to different people. That is the whole point behind having raids offer different experiences for different groups of people.

randomguy.1283:

I really think your focus on rewards and not fun is a HUGE problem going forward with this idea though.

I think this is worth paying attention to. There are two distinct discussions taking place in this thread – first, whether or not there should be an easier option to raiding and, second, should people who put in less effort have the chance to get the same rewards?

My stance is pretty simple. Addressing the reward first, I do believe greater effort should equal a different (not necessarily “better”) reward. Anet has even taken this approach in the past – with minis (Liadri, Aetherpath achievements), unique gear (living story achievements, aetherpath rewards, gold fractal weapons, etc), through standing out competitively (WvW tournament rewards, the PvP Llamas, etc), open world challenges (jumping puzzle titles and rewards) and with time investment (legendary weapons, etc). I do not see why raiding should be any different. Greater effort should be rewarded in some way (that doesn’t involved greater character stats, of course).

The true issue to me is whether or not their should be a more casual way to experience the content (actually doing the fights in some form). I look at this way. The only reason raids are branded as “difficult” content is because Anet originally took that stance.

In its purest form, a raid is just a 10 person instance. That is the sole defining factor of a raid (and I would add that the 10 person part is arbitrary as well, but that would be a different discussion entirely). So, why not take the same approach that they take to the rest of the game? Build it out for everyone – and then address difficulty.

Difficult content shouldn’t be solely confined to raids. And neither should easy content be solely confined to open world or fractals. They have the systems, the developmental knowledge and the motivation to make difficult content in EVERY part of the game.

So, I make this argument – build a game that everyone can play, and then look at how you can add challenge to every part of it. There should be fractal encounters (and even living story chapters) that are every bit as hard as the current raid bosses, just for smaller groups. They could even add open world content, guild missions, etc, that meet that same criteria (and I would argue, in the case of TT, they did in open world).

Now, the counter argument many might have to this is around developmental resources – but Anet themselves have addressed this. They said they want to focus future design on making the game deeper rather than broader (ie, perfecting and adding to the content systems they have in place today).

So, my advice to Anet – when the raid team and the living story team have completed their current projects, have them swap roles. Tell the raid team to come up with a design for the Fractal level 105 swamp end boss that rivals anything they have done for 10 player raids, while telling the story team to develop a toned down version of the raid story for more casual players. I know that is a simplified example and probably wouldn’t work exactly that way, but I think you understand where I’m coming from.

Raiding is just 10 player content. There is no mandate that says it has to be the hardest content in the game. On the flip side, the inverse could just as easily be true of single player or fractal content. There is nothing stopping you from turning up the dial and melting our faces with an optional fractal or story mode instance (fractals would be perfect for this).

So, I don’t see this as a “make raids easier” discussion. I see it as a “spread the love for everyone from casual to hardcore players” to every part of the game discussion.

I understand the frustration, but queues will settle down and even out. We’ve seen this a few dozen times before.

The long term benefit that comes from a more robust experience across ALL servers should significantly outweigh any minor inconvenience we are seeing today.

randomguy.1283:

Blaeys.3102:

randomguy.1283:

curtegg.5216:

The raids are not hard. What makes them hard are the time-gates. Eliminate the time gates and have tiered rewards based upon the time it takes to down the bosses.

You clearly haven’t played the raids because the timers are not what make them hard.

Correct. Eliminating the time gates (enrage timers) would not make the fights face roll easy. However, it would go a long way to addressing the build/profession/player diversity issue.

By adding enrage timers to every single encounter, they are effectively saying “Zerker/Vipers or go home – and please don’t bring your dps ranger.” Even with every other mechanic they put in the fights, the CORE mechanic of every fight remains – kill fast.

Removing enrage timers would fix that. Adding in tiered (gold, silver, bronze) reward levels based on kill speed would ensure that teams that do the fight EXACTLY as anet intended are still rewarded for that effort – and for those teams who continually suffer or have issues (and there are many out there – no matter what people want to say on these forums) – they would have the option of going more survival focused (with the understanding they would get a lesser reward).

I would hate to see raids become super easy, but I do believe there is way (possibly the one I and others outline above) to make them a little less punishing and open to groups who just want to have fun and experience (read – actually do not just see on youtube) the fights without the high levels of dedication (again, understanding they would get a lesser reward).

I am very optimistic and pleased to see they are at least considering alternatives (even though I will most likely continue tackling the fights at max level – I do enjoy the challenge). I hope they come sooner rather than later. I know a TON of players who would enjoy this content who simply aren’t interested in the current difficulty level.

“I know a TON of players who would enjoy this content who simply aren’t interested in the current difficulty level.”

The ENTIRE point of raids was to be difficult content. If they’re not interested because of the current difficulty level, they’re just not interested.

I know that nothing anyone can say will change anyone’s minds at this point, but the proposed change would not change the difficulty one iota for top end raiders. In order to qualify for the current level of reward on VG, for instance, you would still need to beat the boss in 8 minutes.

No one is advocating for taking anything away from the raid experience at all. While raids can (and should be) difficult content, there is no hard set rule that says that is the only experience they have to or should offer. The goal should be to provide a fun experience for as many players as possible (without detracting from the challenging experience desired by more dedicated players).

randomguy.1283:

curtegg.5216:

The raids are not hard. What makes them hard are the time-gates. Eliminate the time gates and have tiered rewards based upon the time it takes to down the bosses.

You clearly haven’t played the raids because the timers are not what make them hard.

Correct. Eliminating the time gates (enrage timers) would not make the fights face roll easy. However, it would go a long way to addressing the build/profession/player diversity issue.

By adding enrage timers to every single encounter, they are effectively saying “Zerker/Vipers or go home – and please don’t bring your dps ranger.” Even with every other mechanic they put in the fights, the CORE mechanic of every fight remains – kill fast.

Removing enrage timers would fix that. Adding in tiered (gold, silver, bronze) reward levels based on kill speed would ensure that teams that do the fight EXACTLY as anet intended are still rewarded for that effort – and for those teams who continually suffer or have issues (and there are many out there – no matter what people want to say on these forums) – they would have the option of going more survival focused (with the understanding they would get a lesser reward).

I would hate to see raids become super easy, but I do believe there is way (possibly the one I and others outline above) to make them a little less punishing and open to groups who just want to have fun and experience (read – actually do not just see on youtube) the fights without the high levels of dedication (again, understanding they would get a lesser reward).

I am very optimistic and pleased to see they are at least considering alternatives (even though I will most likely continue tackling the fights at max level – I do enjoy the challenge). I hope they come sooner rather than later. I know a TON of players who would enjoy this content who simply aren’t interested in the current difficulty level.

Making the content more accessible to a wider range of players would be a very good move on their part. It would allow them to deliver the GW2 narrative in more ways and would justify focused development time better. It would also help bring people together more and probably start generating greater player interest in the harder tier raids, as beginner raiders would have a ladder to climb and prepare them for greater and greater challenges. To that same point, it would also allow them to get a little more brutal with top tier raid design and design fights with a much smaller margin of error.

As far as rewards, I think that legendary equipment (of any kind) should be very difficult to obtain. Otherwise, it isn’t really legendary. I would have no problem with lower tier raiding offering significantly reduced shards and typical event box style rewards.

It takes 2-3 seconds to go to the reddit subforum.

If that channel already exists – and it has the tools needed to make a back and forth discussion more easily than the forums do, why in the world would ANet not use reddit – or spend money/time/resources to change these forums?

Is it really such a hardship on people to hop over to reddit – especially when they give you a notice and a link on this site to make it easier?

There seems to be a lot to look forward to – and the developers seem to be reprioritizing the game back toward the living world concept, which is good – but there is still one line item that always seems to slip between the cracks during these discussions -

What are the plans for guild missions?

Are they part of the responsibility pool for any of these development teams they keep talking about? Are they even something they plan to continue supporting or have they gone the way of dungeons? Are they on hold like legendary weapons?

I – and others – have asked these basic questions in dozens of posts the past few months – as well as during the recent AMA. In every case, the questions have been drowned out or outright forgotten about.

I wish Anet would at least let us know if they are part of the plan moving forward. People talk about the last time fractals were updated, but PVE guild missions have experienced a much longer drought in terms of anything new.

I think that is why they called it tribulation mode rather than hard mode.

Tribulation means to go through suffering or pain (which I think they accomplished with the mode) – so the warning is right there in the name.

Remember, SAB was never intended to be serious content. It’s an homage to old console games that started as a bit of an April Fool’s Day joke by a developer in his spare time.

• You can now cast Continuum Split while under the effect of Continuum Split, but it will fracture space time, destroying all life as we know it.

How dare you think I wasn’t serious …

In the spirit of the OP:

• Deploying a glider now replaces the #1 skill with the “flap arms” ability. Players unable to spam this skill will now fall to their death.

EDIT – I wasn’t serious
(I love April 1)

Gerrand.3085:

Can not tell if joking or serious -.-
…

Isn’t wondering this half the fun of April 1st?

:)

I think most players do not appreciate how threads like this (and Anet’s) disrupt the forum goer’s experience, especially those who participate heavily in arguments with other players. We come here for a specific reason and cannot abide time spent on anything remotely fun or jovial.

In the future, they should try and make sure that these threads are only seen by non-forum-pvpers by disabling visibility specifically in those instances and for those players where it may interfere with ongoing 1000+ post back and forth arguments, most importantly those kept alive by 3 or fewer players.

This should be easy enough to do as we all know that programmers (and by extension, forum representatives) can do anything perfectly with a few hours notice – they simply choose not to due to their pure hatred of anything fun or game affirming.

Is there any new content at all planned for April?

Good or bad, I think they need to set expectations now with a simple yes or no answer to that question. If it is there, they don’t even need to tell us what it is. At this point, it’s okay to continue polishing the game a little, but we mainly just want something new to do (and need something to look forward to).

spartan.9421:

Just a flesh wound.3589:

spartan.9421:

jblade.6470:

Cysgod.8523:

jblade.6470:

Mike O Brien.4613:

Obviously I go into this knowing that some players will be very upset. That’s why it’s such a tough decision.

Ankdarkwolf, Darkmikau, Ballads, Spira, Caerbannog, Cysgod, you each posted a variant of an accusation I’ve seen many times over the past few months on the forums, something along the lines of, “AN shipped half an expansion with HoT.” I take issue with that. We shipped a new region full of content, a new mastery system, gliding, guild halls, a new profession, nine new elite specializations for existing professions, and more. Then we shipped precursor journeys for existing legendaries, and said, “We’ve been working hard on new legendary weapons, the first handful of which will be introduced in Heart of Thorns, with more to come in subsequent updates.” While I fully get that you’re disappointed today, this is not about us shipping half an expansion pack.

Mo

This is the most disrespectful response to a customer base I’ve seen in awhile. You DID ship half of an expansion although I’ll go as high as 60%. Half of what came out was just reworks on core systems (many of what came out for non-HoT purchasers too) and the new region was 3 and a half maps. GW2 managed those same things in feature packs before you announced expansions. Those were free! When you get $50-$100 per person, I expect that the least you can do is finish what you promised on the “box” and you hire more people if needed. Sad…

I’ve noticed MO is kinda disrespectful. but try not to get on his bad side, he actually gave me an infraction and removed the comment I made that earned my place in his response because he didn’t agree with it.

Fair enough. I’m done. Thanks for the warning.

Yeah… hes definitely the ONLY person who is being disrespectful in ANYWAY what so ever! (sarcasm).
You people have done nothing but complain and point fingers and be disrespectful to ANET in this forum post (and other forums posts) but mike says something that is blunt (but not disrespectful) and suddenly hes the one in the wrong? PLEASE! the amount of QQ in just this forum post alone is ridiculous and uncalled for! you all act as though anet is taking away your newborn child and not some useless weapons that have ZERO purpose! THINK ABOUT IT! legendary weapons give you NOTHING other than “oooh i can change the stats on my staff but thats it” when you could craft a few ascended staves (and put sigils on them) for far cheaper. all this outrage is completely pointless

There are a lot of things in the world that are useless. This point is irrelevant. What is relevant that if I bought it, if I paid real money for it, I expect to get it. And yes, they were an advertised part of what I bought here. How pointless it might be to someone else is neither here nor there. I spent money on something and as a consumer I expected to get it, not be told they’re no longer working on it but “eventually” they’ll do it. Especially not with a company that already has a reputation of “eventually” meaning years or never.

Well, just like the whole “xpac being $50” stuff that went on, this will blow over and no one will care after about a month. People don’t ACTUALLY CARE they just want to complain, that’s all this is, is just people complaining. Not because they care, but because they can.

Actually, I think this situation is very different. When you have people like Wooden Potatoes, who is obviously an adamant fan of GW2 (and many of us still are fans), talking about things that could cause him to “abandon the franchise,” then you know there is something amiss and worth consternation and ongoing discussion.

Things have snowballed. I think Anet’s intentions the past 1.5 years were good, but they either made some serious missteps or were a little too ambitious and ended up with a game they couldn’t properly maintain and sustain. Either way, I believe it is fully within their ability to right the ship, but they may have to make some very painful (hopefully for the company more than the customers) decisions.

Also – I think they need to be honest with themselves. The thing holding back living world was never legendaries (which are part of the living world). It is the expansion model they have adopted and the decision to include a new instanced game mode (not saying the expansion model or raids are necessarily bad, just that they have pulled resources when they shouldn’t have).

I purchased Heart of Thorns because they told us it was going to fix this systemic issue with the game.

In terms of content, it was lacking (a few open world maps, no fractals, one new pvp map, no new guild missions, etc) – no on can debate that. However, where it seemed to shine was through the building of foundations. A new fractal system – a new guild mission system – a new player progression system – they told us these things were put in place to make it easier to build and deliver new content.

My hope – and the reason I bought HOT – was that they were putting in the systems they needed to provide regular updates to things like guild missions, fractals, world maps, etc. That is how this game was designed and how it needs to be moving forward.

I love this game, but they failed in this goal. Six months in and none of the systems they designed to speed delivery of new content have resulted in new game content. That is inexcusable for any reason.

Either these systems are broken and need to be fixed or they do not have the employees needed to sustain them. Either way, it’s time to forget about expansions for a while and get this train back on track.

While it might be in other games, even a couple of months without new content should be unacceptable in GW2. The model they built relies on sustainable and frequent content. If implementing an expansion pack into that model interferes with the sustainability and frequency of quality content, then the developers have failed to deliver the game they said they were going to deliver.

It’s time for drastic – and possibly painful (for the company, not the customers) – action to be taken or the future of this game is very much in peril.

The more I see, the more that I think that Anet just needs to back up and get back to the vision they had when the game launched. They know how to make a great game. I know people criticized season one for the temporary nature of much of the content, but the content itself was fun and entertaining. Just as importantly, the developers continually let us know how passionate they were about that content. Think back to some of the lead in (videos, in game hints, etc) activities for things like Southsun, Molten Facility, Tower of Nightmares, etc.

We’ve lost that sense of developer passion – and we have lost the unique and fun content we were getting then.

IMO, I would rather they scrapped the idea of expansions and moved to a “season pass” business model. Put the entire team back on making a living breathing world and, every 2-3 years, ask us to pay a one time cost to access the new region you have added (are in the process of adding) to the game.

Two to three years ago, we considered this a great game. Today, it feels off track. It’s time to look at the difference between now and then and get this train heading in the right direction again.

This simply isn’t needed to make the game more fun and would pull even more developer resources away from actual content.

I had a few thoughts about how I think they could add to the living world short term -

• Expand Guild World Events trigger – Currently this guild upgrade is only usable on TT, Teq and KQ. If they expanded its capability to include every major event chain and definitely ever world boss, then you would have guilds triggering (semi organized) events left and right much more often.

• New Guild Mission Category called “World Event” – To encourage the above idea even further, simply add those events to the potential guild mission pool. In addition to spicing up missions and giving guilds a reason to trigger events more often, it would give them a much easier way to add missions in the future.

• Open up guild puzzles to the public – Currently, guild puzzles are instanced. Is there any reason the non-instanced versions should be closed to the public? Is it as simple as opening the door on the current map?

• Turn guild challenges into open world events – Same concept as puzzles above. These are instanced now as well. Any reason the non-instanced versions can’t be open world events?

I do think we need new living world sooner rather than later, but these are just a few ways they could take existing content and make it more accessible/fun for players (imo).

While I do agree that there would probably have been better ways to reallocate resources to revive and revitalize the living world, I do applaud Anet and Mr Obrien for recognizing there is an issue and working to solve it.

First – personal attacks toward developers (and other players) have no place in this discussion. These are employees trying to do the best job possible (even if we disagree with them). Making it personal is abhorrent and worthy of both a temporary forum and game ban imo. It also adds nothing meaningful to the debate and discussion (which is what we should be focused on rather than just ranting).

Second – the idea that this warrants a breach of contract or litigation is reactionary and absurd. Yes, it is sad. Yes, it runs counter to what they have said they would do. But, if they remain so inflexible as to never be able to change their minds or direction based on game needs, then the game itself would never grow and improve. I think we all need to realize that.

That said, again, I think there were better ways to do this, but I am not a developer.

After the last developer statement, my current plan is to give them the chance to get the ship back on track and, hopefully, knock our socks off with (hopefully imminent) content drops. We are slated to get one in April. Let’s see what they give us with it.

I think the biggest issue is that players currently have no idea what is and isn’t part of the game going forward.

I would like a rough definition of what the developers see as the “core game,” a phrase they have used several times.

So, which of the following are – and are not – still on the development table as part of the living world:

• Guild Missions
• Fractals
• Open World Maps
• Dynamic Events
• World Bosses
• Collections
• Holidays (Dragon Bash, Queen’s Gauntlet, etc)
• Specializations (or even just new utilities and traits)
• Cosmetic Weapons
• Guild Hall Features and upgrades
• Adventures
• Story Instances
• PvP Maps
• WvW overhaul

Which of these are still on the table between now and the next expansion (and just as importantly, which are not) – and did I miss anything?

Part of the marketing messaging behind HOT was that you were putting base systems in place that would make it easier for you to add new content. Since HOT, we’ve seen the exact opposite to be true. Legitimate question – is there a reason why those systems didn’t serve to do that?

This is an amazing game, but the last six months have been severely disappointing and devoid of content – with little to no promise for anything new in the next 5-6 months. It’s time fix that.

A couple of questions -

1. does this mean that the statements you made during the AMA regarding the next phase of the living world coming “after the third raid wing” or as late as July may be altered? Will we see content earlier than that and, if so, will it be on some kind of (even loose) schedule?

2. To that same point, have you decided to go back to regularly adding content to the game world (the thing that makes it living and breathing?

3. What about legendary armor? It seems like the same logic would apply?

4. Legendary weapons probably have a wider appeal than raids? If the goal is to put resources toward living story, wouldn’t it make sense to move resources (not all, but some) from raids toward this living breathing world (which I love the sound of)?

5. Cynical readers might read this as an excuse by ANET to discontinue legendaries early because you know there is no way you will get them all done before the next expansion. Can you unequivocally confirm that is not the case?

6. Finally, can you give us an idea (of any kind) of what is and isn’t included in your definition of “a living dynamic world”? Does it include new maps, new guild missions (PLEASE), new adventures, or is it simply the 1-5 player story instances we saw as part of season 2?

Also – people make a good point about the frequency of BL weapon skins. If the bottleneck for legendary weapons is the new story system behind the weapons, then maybe just go back to the old system rather than scrapping them altogether. (that said, I do care more about getting our living story back on track more than anything)

Keriana.9635:

Emtiarbi.3281:

If they had the Living Story done, they would have released it already. Lets hope they can finish it as soon as possible, the waiting its killing a lot of people (including me!).

I am sure they would have. I was just hoping for it sooner! ;p

FlamingFoxx.1305:
Alternating content types is exactly what they are doing. They do have to allow that things may not necessarily be done when they had first expected though. You also have no idea how large the next LW content is going to be, how many people are working on it, and what kind of content they’re implementing. It may just be that they needed a bit more time to spend on it because it’s bigger than past releases or for some other reason.

They have different teams working on each thing (and the raid team is quite small).

Well, we used to get new LW updates about once every 2 weeks, and now we get it what, once a year? That is a pretty big change. Maybe once every 2 weeks is too difficult to maintain, but I was hoping for at least quarterly LW updates.

I think quarterly would have made sense if the 2 week schedule didn’t work – and it was the to the standards/scope of season 2 (specifically Drytop and Silverwastes). Once a year means, to me at least, that isn’t really a living world anymore – its just the standard content drop model every AAA MMO uses – which is really sad.

Personally, I think that legendary armor should require a complete mastery of every element of the game – including raids (full completion of every achievement), PvP (diamond rank on one character at minimum), WvW (insane wvw rank), open world (80-100% of all achievements done – including adventures and minigames like keg brawl) and crafting (500 in all).

There should be fancy armor and weapon skins associated with every element of the game, but legendary should mean legendary effort that spans the entire game.

As for the utility of legendary gear in raids, a guildee of mine said it perfectly – by the time you put in the effort probably needed for one set of legendary armor, you can probably have at least 4 sets in each weight division anyway (which would be better than legendary because you can then have multiple sets of runes).

Legendary armor should be prestigious and be about illustrating a mastery of EVERY part of the game.

Gaile Gray.6029:

Ayrilana.1396:

There’s a lot of communication here. It’s just that it doesn’t always entail what people want to hear (e.g. Release dates, what’s being worked on, etc) which Anet has stated numerous times that they do not provide those details until it’s nearly completed.

Thank you. That is precisely right. Nearly every comment, request, complaint, or discussion point about communication comes down to, as I said earlier tonight, “Tell us more” or “Tell us when.” And there are many, many times when we’re simply not going to do that because, to quote Mike O’Brien, “it’s nice for you to have presents to unwrap on release day.”

To read all of Mike’s comments, please see the AMA thread. And in the context of this thread and on the topic of reddit as opposed to the official forums, believe me, no one is sorrier that the AMA couldn’t take place on our official forums, but I think I’ve explained why that is so. To answer the question of whether we’ll someday have software to host something like an AMA, let’s just say I very much hope and believe so but like SAB, that’s “someday” not not “[this day].”

There is a difference between spoiling stories and generating excitement/managing expectations.

Right now, the game community needs something to look forward to – we need an idea of where the ANET team wants to take this game. How does the vision differ from the one you had at launch? How has that vision changed since the launch of HOT? Are you still committed to creating a “living world” and, if so, what does that term mean (in relation to what it meant 6, 12, 36 months ago?

We aren’t asking anyone to spill the beans or spoil surprises. We’re asking for a little reassurance that the game we are playing is going places we want to go (or alternatively, to know if it is not).

Without that very basic information, people will likely assume that Anet is in a state of flux following the departure of the lead developer – that you don’t have a clear direction for this game and are simply treading water in a quasi-maintenance mode. I realize (hope) that probably isn’t the case, but that is the impression people get when there is no clear communication from the developers.

As always – I love GW2. It has provided a setting in which me and my guild have had years of enjoyment. I sincerely hope that continues for the foreseeable future.

To add – there are also topics you seem to go out of your way to avoid mentioning. PVE guild missions haven’t been touched in years. Colin briefly mentioned he was excited about what the HOT team would do with them, but then the topic just died. It’s the same with SAB (which – to your credit – you did mention in this thread), the scope of fractals, new minigames (this one really goes back – before launch you talked about a bar brawl and archery contest and then never mentioned again). These aren’t unreasonable questions – nor would you be spoiling anything by addressing them.

This game shines most through that content designed for larger groups – guilds, servers (wvw) and map communities.

Going a few months (much less almost a year) without new content for those groups seems like a bad decision to me.

The problem I see is they keep worrying about rebuilding and polishing the base while actual content gets pushed back further and further.

When they showed us HOT, they said that the reason it was so light on actual content (no fractals, guild missions, etc) was because they were taking the opportunity to implement base systems that would make it easier for them to quickly role out new content.

Then we enter into what is starting to look like an 11 month drought on new content. Worse, they make the questionable decision to package all of the living story together, offering the excuse that it is for “quality” purposes.

There is a pretty severe disconnect somewhere. Either the right hand isn’t communicating with the left at Anet or they have, once again, decided to change direction in terms of game design.

They gave us an expansion that was supposed to make new content delivery easier and more streamlined, but we have yet to see anything new in terms of guild missions, fractals, story steps, dynamic events (other than tweaks to Shatterer), adventures or even legendary weapons. Yes, they have released raids for a small percentage of the population, but – as many are quick to point out – those were originally considered part of the expansion itself.

Then we get the AMA about Colin with some small timeline discussions that, instead of showing us they are using that foundation they built, only offers excuses about why we have to wait so long for new content (which they describe in extremely vague terms). It makes it very hard to be excited about the short term (and long term) future of GW2.

Nokaru.7831:

I really don’t understand this push to attach “exclusivity” to “difficulty” that’s been going on for the past few pages. The issue simply is that the raid is too hard for some people; that’s it. Why not focus on something productive, such as providing clear and concise feedback as to what makes raiding hard for you to get into? (Some have done this, but many have steered things way, way off-topic)

I think you have a valid point about the discussion. Here’s my thought/idea (that Ive posted in other threads):

I think the answer is simply to remove the enrage timer and replace it with a gold/silver/bronze reward system.

This would retain every bit of the difficulty we see in the current fight – and the exclusive reward – while allowing more leeway in terms of builds/group comps/skill levels for those who care more about the content than they do about the rewards.

Those that do all the research, enforce the zerker metas and analyze group composition like master strategists preparing to invade Russia would still be rewarded for that effort. In fact, this would allow the developers to add in even greater rewards for those that do this near flawlessly.

At the same time, however, groups of friends would not be as severely punished for wanting to bring those few casual friends who may enjoy playing a ranger in rabid gear or a confusion mesmer (or anything else that severely deviates from the accepted meta). They may not be able to beat the fight fast enough to warrant a full reward, but at least they could enjoy the fight mechanics and proceed through the content. And, I’m not talking about nerfing any of the other mechanics whatsoever. There would still be that learning and mastery phase – it just wouldn’t punish alternative builds and group compositions as strongly as the current system does.

It would also allow the developers to design future fights that are even more brutal and unforgiving, because they know that by doing so, they will not be shutting others out.

Yes, there are many who enjoy digging through metabattle and speed run videos to fine tune every aspect of their gameplay – but there are also many who just want to play and experience the interesting mechanics with slightly less pressure (or simply on the profession/build they enjoy most) – and, yes, that includes 10 man content.

Additionally, I think this could serve to offer a sense of progression to raids that is currently lacking. More serious groups working on getting gold would potentially have greater opportunity to experience and practice all mechanics as they work their way through beating the bronze and silver requirements.

I think a system like this would give the developers more opportunities to make fights even tougher than they are now while opening up the raiding scene to more players. That sounds like a win-win to me, but it will require raiders to concede some of the special status currently associated with that game mode (again, without conceding reward – I do believe those that put in the effort deserve greater cosmetic reward).

TexZero.7910:

… they do want easy modes with equal rewards.

I do agree that is a very bad idea – and I know many other who do as well. I think the issue is about the experience.

Players putting in more effort definitely deserve a reward for that effort.

Avarice.2791:

@Blaeys

The only problem with this is rocking 1600 toughness goes directly against the mechanics on a few on the raid bosses such as VG. This means that as a tempest, Ohani will be holding aggro. It’s pretty much raid 101 that whoever has the most toughness on bosses who hold aggro, will receive the aggro.

What this implies is that zero work has gone into researching what the heck is going on in this new crazy content. It’s like hopping in a level 100 fractal with exotic gear. Is that a reasonable request?

Like, if he was wearing condi gear or anything I could understand this, but to get 1600 toughness… this means you’re wearing a random array of stats without an understanding on how it’s impacting your performance.

One thing about raids, which is fundamental to raids, is that there are roles to be filled. People have jobs to do. Bringing in a tempest with 1600 toughness tends to cause problems. Take Gors. You put the tempest in charge of taking care of blue orbs. The tempest has a 50% dps cut in exchange for unneeded survivability. Those orbs are going to overrun the place. Whose fault is that? The game?

Except in fractals, he has another way to experience the fight that doesn’t require the gear and attention to meta you are talking about – level 1-10 fractals.

Following the same analogy, no one is asking them to nerf the raid (the lvl 100 fractal). They are basically asking for the lvl 1 fractal equivalent of that raid. It doesn’t change the nature of the level 100 in any way – it just extends the experience to a wider group of players.

I can see logical arguments against (developer time being the biggest), but if they can do this without altering the top end experience, there really is (literally) no harm in it – and it would make some peoples’ game time more enjoyable – which should be the only real goal..

Don’t take this as a personal attack on you or even on your ideas of what raiding is. It is simply people disagreeing with you.

Ohoni.6057:

Exactly my point. I know that it’s not the build most people would want in a raid, but it’s the build that I’ve got because it’s designed primarily for other content. I want a raid in which that doesn’t matter.

I think, as long as providing that experienced does not diminish the experience of more advanced raiders, that is a perfectly reasonable request.

Not everyone in the game wants to go to the work of min/maxing (to any degree) or playing to a specific meta, etc, for the sole purpose of experiencing raids ( I personally do these things, but only because I want to).

And, at the end of the day, it is just a game. I think it would be a good and productive addition if Anet provided them with a way for more of them to experience the content themselves.

I understand the “but they didn’t put the work in” and “that isn’t how raids work in other games” arguments – I just don’t agree that those are real issues because, again, it is just a game.

Avarice.2791:

@Blaeys

Every one of your responses in your initial post sounded like an attack on me. You misunderstood pretty much every point I’ve raised thus far and put words in my mouth that I never said. You then raised a lot of points without backing them up with logic.

Your second post is a lot more constructive and I agree with the majority of it so I don’t sense there needs to be a response to what you said as we are for the most part agreeing. I’m simply just not sure how much more you can nerf certain content without destroying the fight and making it no different than the rest of the game. Let’s take VG. You can already survive if you miss a green circle. You can survive even with some bad breakbars and tank placement. If you nerf that further what do you even have? Just my two cents and my main argument for why raid should be forward progression and not retract backwards. Easy content is short lived.

I can promise that none of my posts were directed at you personally and I apologize if you feel that was the case. Truth is, I wasn’t even paying attention to postee’s names – just the conversation.

Needless to say, you and I disagree about most of these topics. All I’m asking is to keep the personally directed comments out of the conversation altogether – let’s focus on the discussion.

To address your notes above, I don’t think anyone is advocating retracting or regressing the current raid design in any way. Anything they do would have to be in addition or in conjunction with what they are doing now. I think almost everyone feels that way.

Avarice.2791:

Blaeys.3102:

I have to hop in on this one. The reason this happens in other games is that gear eventually passes the content, creating the less intensive experience more casual raiders are looking for. That will never (and should never) happen since there is no gear treadmill in GW2.

Actually, I’m not talking about that… literally… at all. That is obvious. What I am talking about is general community progression on current content. It happens and it is noticeable especially in pugs. Why does this happen? More and more people down the content putting in practice and reaching the level of skill required.

Blaeys.3102:

And, yes, the raids in GW2 aren’t necessarily as difficult as weve seen in other games (Ive been raiding for 9 years across multiple MMOs now), but the idea that they are designed for players with diverse skill levels and interest is not only incorrect, it has been contradicted by the developers themselves.

No one is saying that raids are designed for players with diverse skill levels. Raids have a learning curve which requires a certain level of “skill” to succeed.

Blaeys.3102:

There are valid discussion points against including a more casual raid level (developer time, reward disparity, etc). “It’s actually easy, so learn to play,” or “the content will eventually be easy for everyone” are not among them.

What now? Valid discussion points FOR “LFR” style raids? Are you saying there were was an official discussion thread somewhere? Do you really believe as a community we are not progressing against the content that raiding brings?…? I don’t think I ever said “It’s actually easy so learn to play.” You’re putting words in my mouth. I highly disagree with you disagreeing that content will eventually be easy for everyone as I’ve explained above and numerous times. If you really don’t think the community progresses on content you need to open your eyes.

Blaeys.3102:

I raid – I even enjoy raiding sometimes – but, as the guild leader for a guild with more than 100 active members with greatly varying levels of skill and playstyles, I see a need for a deeper, more inclusive raiding model in this game.

Congratulations on the guild. Let’s hear your ideas?

Complaining != helpful
Suggestions == helpful

You’re simply leading on a toxic conversation that could continue for 100’s of posts. If you add in suggestions or support your opinions then this has the potential to lead to discussion.

Thaddeus.4891:

But that’s only a matter of opinion. My guild have about 500 players in it. 50% of those would tell you that raid are super hard in GW2 and only 5% would tell you that raid are normal.

Listen, I’m just saying that there is no such thing as “hard-mode.” Raiding in its current state is normal raiding. There is no differentiation on difficulties. This really isn’t even a point that is worth arguing over due to the fact that I’m not talking about personal preferences on the difficulty of raids. I’m simply saying SV/SP is normal-mode raiding.

The general community is not ready for a hard-mode raid let alone normal raiding, but perhaps a year down the road they will be.

Also, speculating how many players are raiders or how many Dev’s are working on raids really isn’t worth it due to the fact that it is all speculation.

First – to get it out of the way – the condescending, personal insults and claims that I am leading a toxic conversation have no place in this thread and only serve to derail any real discussion. You and I disagree with each other – that doesn’t mean either of us is being toxic or unreasonable – it simply means we disagree. Let’s keep it civil and try to express diverse opinions without sinking to those levels.

The points that many are trying to make are pretty simple:

- (Almost) no one is advocating removing the challenge you (and I) want in raiding.

- While I agree with you that, given time and some dedication to builds/learning, almost anyone could beat the raids, that doesn’t mean that they cannot be more inclusive and open to less dedicated players (casual players).

- There is a difference between wanting to experience the content and expecting parallel rewards. There are ways they can give players the experience while still ensuring that those who put in greater effort get greater (cosmetic) rewards.

- People are not asking for a faceroll experience – just something that doesn’t require hours of practice and time spent away from the rest of the game.

- Watching YouTube videos, entering cleared instances and being carried through hard content is not the same as experiencing the content and fight mechanics (just because they don’t want the same challenge doesn’t mean they wouldn’t enjoy toned down versions of the mechanics)

- This can be done without taking anything away from top end raid groups. It really can

Finally, I once again ask that, if you choose to respond to this, please do so without attacking or insinuating things about me personally. I am showing you that same respect and will continue to do so.

And, if you feel the discussion has run its course, that is also fine. Just step away and let those who still wish to continue do so.

Let’s (everyone) just have a civil discussion. It is what the forums are here for.

Avarice.2791:

@STIHL

It’s merely the fact that hard != excluded therefore your analogy is a fallacy. “Casuals” that are excluded from raiding at this moment will eventually either become better by doing the work that comes with raiding, or decide that they do not wish to become better at the hobby they are putting time into. (Although, hopefully this should happen anyways.) There will be a point where the difficulty of a boss, and the learning curve of the community will meet as time goes on. This means that eventually the majority will be clearing this content. This happens with raiding in EVERY MMO.

Elitists are not calling for keeping raids “hard.” Raids in this game are “normal.” There are no “hard” raids. This is something you defined where as the current raid content is merely “normal” due to the fact that there are no other difficulty modes.

I’m not trying to belittle you or say anything really. I’m just discussing your thought process.

I have to hop in on this one. The reason this happens in other games is that gear eventually passes the content, creating the less intensive experience more casual raiders are looking for. That will never (and should never) happen since there is no gear treadmill in GW2.

And, yes, the raids in GW2 aren’t necessarily as difficult as weve seen in other games (Ive been raiding for 9 years across multiple MMOs now), but the idea that they are designed for players with diverse skill levels and interest is not only incorrect, it has been contradicted by the developers themselves.

There are valid discussion points against including a more casual raid level (developer time, reward disparity, etc). “It’s actually easy, so learn to play,” or “the content will eventually be easy for everyone” are not among them.

I raid – I even enjoy raiding sometimes – but, as the guild leader for a guild with more than 100 active members with greatly varying levels of skill and playstyles, I see a need for a deeper, more inclusive raiding model in this game.

Avarice.2791:

As someone who has successfully cleared content I will start by saying that I would have to be extremely selfish to feel that an easy-mode would take away from raids. That would be like saying I feel like level 25 fractals take away from level 100 fractals.

What I do not want is for rewards to be tied between both modes (If a LFR type mode ever existed) I do not want achievements to be shared. I do not want to see some guy who zerged down VG running around with a mini. I don’t want to see players making more than 1/10th of the shards if they put in 1/10th of the time.

On top of this. I would prefer it if raids did not backwards progress from where they are now. I do not wish to see an easier-mode simply on the basis that it would delay everything else in this game. What I would rather see is a more difficult mode if the Devs had the time on their hands. This would keep raiders interested and the current normal mode would train players in for the more difficult mode. There would be actual worlds first competitions with extremely hard-core guilds who gain world recognition. Or… you can make a mode with zero replay-ability for the players who do not wish to raid… yet have not reached many aspects in this game besides raiding.

Let’s be real. Anyone coming from WoW. How much of a benefit was LFR to you when your goal was getting to a more difficult game-mode. What this was, was the in-between of dungeon and normal mode gear. It had little replay-ability unless you were going for a specific reward, which then you did not value the content. It taught nothing when it came to mechanics. Mechanics were “forgiving” meaning they were ignored.

@Bloody

GW2 did not copy the trinity of tanks/healers/dps. Most fights do not require a tank. Most fights do not require a healer. What you have is support/condi/power dps. Completely abstract from what raids typically are in other games. It’s hard to redesign something that has been perfected over 15 years. I believe Anet did a fantastic job.

I don’t think it is a big secret that I am an advocate of adding a more casual experience into 10 person gameplay (raiding). I’ve been very vocal about it.

With that said, I agree with most of what you have posted here.

I personally think the key is coupling the reward with how fast you kill the boss. Let’s be honest, the mechanics in the raid are really well done and challenging, but that challenge diminishes significantly as you learn the mechanics (as good mechanics should).

The difference between a pro raider and a casual raider comes down (imo) to how well you master those mechanics in conjunction with your knowledge of player builds and optimal group composition – which manifests (in all of the fights we have now) in one thing – killing the boss faster.

So, if kill speed is the differentiator, why not make it the differentiator for rewards as well. Remove the concept of the enrage timer and replace it with set intervals where the raid reward diminishes (just like the gold, silver, bronze system from open world). Not only would this allow them to open the experience to more builds and group compositions (and more skill levels) – it would give them a way to easily UP the difficulty as well. If your group can kill the Vale Guardian in 4 minutes, maybe you earn a special – ultra rare – cosmetic drop as well.

To the point of future fight design, this idea of gold/silver/bronze doesn’t have to be limited solely to kill speed. Maybe it is determined by how many adds you kill during the fight or keeping X number of NPCs alive . My point is, there is a scaling difficulty system already in the game that would fit very nicely into raid design (imo) that would allow for BRUTALLY difficult fights without locking more casual players out of the experience/story.

Just a thought.

How about we take one argument from each side and focus on the points and counterpoints of those arguments.

For example:

- Some in the hardcore raider community feel that offering lower difficulty levels would take away from the overall raiding experience – either by lowering the prestige associated with the game mode or by encouraging the developers to move away from difficult content – something many really want.

- Some in the more casual community feel that the addition of layered difficulties would actually be healthy for raiding in the long run, because more raiders/players enjoying the content would potentially give Anet a reason to focus more resources on that game mode.

Let’s hear the pros and cons – and maybe focus on specific talking points that advocate one approach or the other. It may not have an impact on the direction of the game, but it will allow us as players to more clearly express how we feel about this topic.

I think both sides have cognizant arguments that should be heard.

Yes, the conversation has become a little circular because of the same small group of people (on both sides) pushing their agenda.

However, between the hyperbole/namecalling/belittling comments (again, from both sides), there is still a debate/conversation worth having. Please don’t let it devolve into a grudge match between egos. So, stop directing comments at individual players and making blanket hypothetical statements. Focus instead on making your argument in as clear and calm a method as possible.

This is an important topic for many of us.