Guild Wars 2

Dragon.8762:

Just because Anet came out with raids doesn’t mean thats all they are gonna focus on. Take a chill pill. 6 devs on raids, and the rest are working on other things.

And even so, you must all remember that this is only 1 raid. 1 raid broken into 3 wings. Just because they introduced it periodically doesn’t mean its there new number one focus. MMO’s are about variety of play, not just one game mode. Otherwise its not much of an MMO.

I think we can measure that based on how quickly the next raid comes out.

If they choose to retain the model they are currently using, I hate to say it, but I hope it is well into the future. They really need to focus on other things now.

Vinceman.4572:

When is a reward called a deserved reward? Only when the last people in GW2 will call out: Now!
And these persons are the ones standing afk in open world maps during events. The demand will never end.

The other thing is that there is only a minority that wants changes to raids. The overwhelming majority has absolutely no problems with the one difficulty or if so, I don’t here them for any reason. And let’s be clear, the group of people that is complaining has always been bigger than the one who is not. In this case it is surprisingly not true.
Raids are already easy enough, even good pug groups can carry one baddy through most of the bosses if not all. It’s not about my personal needs because if my guild mates aren’t online I am also struggling to beat the harder bosses and this is actually how I like things to be implemented.

First, it definitely isn’t a minority. Most people are afraid of these forums – especially this sub forum – because of how nasty personal attacks can get (I’m actually impressed that we haven’t seen more of that in this thread). As for me – I’m a loud mouthed opinionated advocate (which is the nice way of describing me ), so I don’t suffer from that trepidation.

Lets get this out of the way now – I don’t want the same reward for lesser effort. That goes against everything in this game. That is why the gold/silver/bronze reward system works in the rest of the game.

I want a tiered experience with a tiered reward.

Right now, removing the enrage timers and implementing a time based tiered reward seems like the best way to do that.

That doesn’t change how you or any other current raider would play the content. It just lets other people in on a raid based experience. That is only good for everyone – it justifies continued development of raids, it gives people an entry into raids who may never try otherwise and it retains the prestige of being good in the game (even heightens it because more people will realize how difficult hitting those benchmarks really are).

Assic.2746:

It’s only one sentence for cutscene and moreover it comes from personal story. It has nothing to do with raids.

The raid itself was the reveal of the White Mantle as the next threat to Tyria. Raiders experienced that in the same way we experienced the reveal of Mordremoth, Scarlett or Zhaitan as the enemy during those story arcs.

Chapter one of the next story is done and revealed (or at least the prologue). Anet chose to give that experience (key word – experience, not just knowledge of) exclusively to raiders. The big irony is most raiders probably cared very little about that experience in comparison to the fights themselves.

That was a misstep, imo – and something I don’t think they thought through properly.

That kind of reveal (or any resolution or other key plot points) cannot be limited to that degree – if they choose to keep raids solely in their current format.

Assic.2746:

I know that a lot of people demands raid’s story. But one thing they can make is to improve chatters between the character.

What do I mean here is (example):
1. A completly new person enters the instance.
2. The new player passes through the boss arena (ofc boss have already been defeated).
3. The player’s character asks “What was that?” etc.
4. One of the instance owners gives him an answer/a short description of the boss.

This is interactive storytelling. It isn’t about the lore. It is about experiencing the content as the hero of the story. The first thing we all heard our characters say in the game ended with the statement “this is my story,” – not, this is the story I got to hear about after the fact.

Vinceman.4572:

Blaeys.3102:

And why would that matter if tiered rewards were in place based on kill speed?

It wouldn’t change how you approach the fight at all. It would just allow groups that play differently than you to still experience the fight -albeit with a lesser reward.

You cant claim that enrage timers are trivial and required at the same time.

You know the next complaint after introducing that?
First thread in this forum would be:
“Seriously Anet, get us some real/better/deserved reward for raid bronze tier!”

We all know that spiral…

Or: “Why should I go for gold tier in raids when reward difference is that little.”, followed by raids becoming abandoned because SW, Tarir, DS, FG and CS trains are 1000 times more rewarding.

I am thankful that Anet will not listen to those ideas.

Then don’t let it spiral. problem solved. Using that as an argument to avoid having the conversation entirely doesn’t make sense.

You don’t see a need because your personal needs are being met. That isn’t the case for the community as a whole, and I am confident that Anet will listen (they always at least listen).

I still think this solution – or some other creative idea from Anet (they are good at those) – would work. And it would work without causing the landslide you seem to fear.

Assic.2746:

…

I do believe they will implement tiered difficulty. They have already communicated that they are willing to consider it – and I believe they will eventually have to see the very clear reasons it is needed.

That said – and back to the topic of this thread – if they choose to use the model you use above, then they definitely should not have any relevant story in raids. You cannot exclude players from important steps (and the reveal of the White Mantle is an important step) and expect it to not have an impact on their excitement for the rest of the story.

Again, however, I think this will be a moot point eventually. Every raiding MMO out there eventually realizes the importance of a tiered difficulty model. Anet will too.

Assic.2746:

Ok now I have a question how much time have you spend in raids so far? In Spirit Vale, Salvation Pass, Stronghold of the Faithful?

A lot, actually, and I even enjoy the difficulty and experience. I am also an ex WoW hardcore raider – I led progression level raiding there for 6+ years and even have some world firsts under my belt.

I understand the appeal of raiding. I’m also the guild leader for a very active diverse group of people in GW2 (100+ very active members). I see first hand the divisive nature of raids in the game – and the need for a deeper experience that appeals to a broader group of players, including what you would label casuals.

I don’t make these statements as uniformed or just crying about wanting things I cant have (I can have them). I am legitimately worried about the divisive nature of raids – the exclusion of PVE players from an important part of the story – and the need for tiered difficultly levels to appeal to more players.

It is about the direction of the game. I love GW2. I have loved it since the very first beta weekend. I am (obviously) very passionate about it. I want to keep on loving it.

Assic.2746:

I don’t get it… everyone can try out raids. But it doesn’t mean that everyone can make it though the raid. The same thing as in PvP everyone can play it and not everyone will be able to hit the Legendary Division.

Conclusion: It’s not the game mode that is bad, but a player who is not good enough.

All of these other game modes – even PvP through the lower divisions – offer a tiered experience for players of varied skill and interest levels.

And, every other successful raiding MMO out there does the same.

That is where GW2 raids fail.

ESPECIALLY if story is involved (the topic of this thread), then raids need that tiered experience.

Assic.2746:

You realize that Raids are the endgame content in Guild Wars 2.

I really hope the developers do not agree with this statement.

It would be telling to hear from them on it, though.

I would hope that they understand – there is no right or wrong way to play this game, thus none of this is really endgame.

If the game is now designed to culminate in an experience just for raiders, then you will see a lot of people very displeased with the direction of the game.

Dominik.5162:

Blaeys.3102:

Dominik.5162:

Blaeys.3102:

Absurdo.8309:

Enrage timers are rarely the problem. It’s almost always the mechanics. The only exceptions are gorseval and sometimes sabetha. Groups low man the raids and beat them in sub par gear. ]

Then you wouldn’t have a problem with removing enrage timers from all of the fights?

Ehm, how about no?
Enrage timers are a important part of progression, they make mechanics alot more dangerous, as a failed mechanic can result in a DPS loss and therefore in a loss of time.
Also what would hinder people from going into raids with full nomads armor and just tanking it out, resulting in the fight to be completely trivial?

And why would that matter if tiered rewards were in place based on kill speed?

It wouldn’t change how you approach the fight at all. It would just allow groups that play differently than you to still experience the fight -albeit with a lesser reward.

Because raids are meant to be a challenge and a goal to work towards, not something everybody can walk in and just beat it without giving a single thought about anything.
It should require work on yourself (fine tuning builds and general gamplay of yourself) and teamwork.
If you could just walk in there, tank it out for 1h, but still do the boss, that would truly trivialize the work all the raiders put in until now and not to mention how much work the devs put in to give us such good content.

The challenge would still be there – as well as the exclusive reward.

Again, it wouldn’t change how you play at all – it would just offer a new experience for some who don’t currently have it. I don’t see how anyone can legitimately argue against that.

I still don’t see a valid argument here other than people not wanting others to experience the raids unless they conform to specific play styles. That is a step in the wrong direction for this game.

Absurdo.8309:

Blaeys.3102:

Absurdo.8309:

Enrage timers are rarely the problem. It’s almost always the mechanics. The only exceptions are gorseval and sometimes sabetha. Groups low man the raids and beat them in sub par gear. ]

Then you wouldn’t have a problem with removing enrage timers from all of the fights?

My original premise was to remove timers and replace them with the gold/silver/bronze reward system. That way you don’t limit strategic choice or gear – but still reward people for doing the fight in the time it was designed to be completed in.

That would be an adequate solution, imo – especially if, as you say, enrage timers aren’t a big deal anyway.

Arah explorable and aetherpath are different from raids for this very reason. With timers, there will always be that finite wall in place. Arah and Aetherpath never had that wall (regardless of how easy you find the timers in raids to currently be).

You could remove enrage timers right now, but that wouldn’t make easy moders happy. They still wouldn’t be able to beat it.

Again, enrage timers force that dps / tank trade off. It rewards groups that bring high dps. Conversely, if you bring more tank/heal, you’ll need to actually use it at the end of the fight.

As I’m sure you know, enrage won’t wipe a group (with the exception of gorseval, because you can’t use updrafts). I’ve beaten plenty of bosses while they were enraged.

And the escort on wing 3 doesn’t have an enrage timer.

Then, once again, what is the harm of removing them if the mechanic to reward faster kills is implemented?

Dominik.5162:

Blaeys.3102:

Absurdo.8309:

Enrage timers are rarely the problem. It’s almost always the mechanics. The only exceptions are gorseval and sometimes sabetha. Groups low man the raids and beat them in sub par gear. ]

Then you wouldn’t have a problem with removing enrage timers from all of the fights?

Ehm, how about no?
Enrage timers are a important part of progression, they make mechanics alot more dangerous, as a failed mechanic can result in a DPS loss and therefore in a loss of time.
Also what would hinder people from going into raids with full nomads armor and just tanking it out, resulting in the fight to be completely trivial?

And why would that matter if tiered rewards were in place based on kill speed?

It wouldn’t change how you approach the fight at all. It would just allow groups that play differently than you to still experience the fight -albeit with a lesser reward.

You cant claim that enrage timers are trivial and required at the same time.

Absurdo.8309:

Enrage timers are rarely the problem. It’s almost always the mechanics. The only exceptions are gorseval and sometimes sabetha. Groups low man the raids and beat them in sub par gear. ]

Then you wouldn’t have a problem with removing enrage timers from all of the fights?

My original premise was to remove timers and replace them with the gold/silver/bronze reward system. That way you don’t limit strategic choice or gear – but still reward people for doing the fight in the time it was designed to be completed in.

That would be an adequate solution, imo – especially if, as you say, enrage timers aren’t a big deal anyway. Ive never had a problem with the mechanics – they make the fight fun. Ive had issue with the unneccesarily restrictive (and artificial, imo) elements like enrage timers.

Arah explorable and aetherpath are different from raids for this very reason. With timers, there will always be that finite wall in place. Arah and Aetherpath never had that wall (regardless of how easy you find the timers in raids to currently be).

Absurdo.8309:

No one called for an easy mode aether path, and that directly tied into living story. It even hinted at the sylvari dragon link.

No one called for an easy mode arah explorable, and that directly links into the dragons and blood shard.

Because of mechanics like enrage timers, raids are significantly more restrictive and exclusionary than either aetherpath or arah explorable.

If what you are suggesting is that an easier version of the raids be on par with aetherpath and arah – in terms of difficulty and accessibility – I would be 100% behind that idea.

Excluding people from experiencing the reveal of the White Mantle’s return means they missed chapter one of the next living story. Even if the story was minimal, it was still the big reveal of the antagonist they will be dealing with throughout that story.

It isn’t about lore – it’s about players being part of their story.

As for the breadth of content argument – it isn’t really breadth of content if X part of the game is designed for X community and Y is designed for Y. That is basically building different games within Tyria. While that is acceptable when talking about PVE versus PVP (for balance reasons), I think it is unneccesarily restrictive when talking exclusively about PVE.

Of course, it comes down to development resources. I honestly don’t believe extending resources to ensure easier and harder content is more evenly spread out in the game would take the effort people think it would – and I definitely believe it would be worth the effort.

I think they will eventually do this. It only makes sense. Difficult content should be included in multiple parts of the game, with no one area reserved for it. The same is true for lower levels of difficulty.

Likewise, there is no logical reason for raids to be as exclusive as they are, especially if they involve story that is directly tied to the larger narrative (which is what they have obviously done).

If the content drops are meaty enough and include multiple areas of the game (guild missions, fractals, open world maps, etc), then I think this is probably a good idea.

It really will come down to how much they can give us on this schedule.

It is obvious that they don’t feel comfortable with the old 2 week schedule – and “when its ready” hasn’t worked too well for them either (the content drought). I would rather see more content more often, but I trust their judgement on how often they can provide quality (and quantity).

Obviously, they have something to prove to us now though – I look forward to seeing what they do.

Walhalla.5473:

For a tiered System the Raid Team needs to be bigger, which quite a few People here would Rage against, since they want the Raid Team disbanded.
There is a Core Team of 5 Devs working only on Raids and the Team itself is never bigger than 10. Anet is not Blizzard who has a big Team for Raids and thus being able to make multiple difficulty Tiers.

Every Mode has to be balanced so it isn’t too easy or too difficult for that Difficulty Tier and Balancing is not just tweaking Damage and Health Numbers its also changing Mechanics to make them more (un)forgiving more frequent less frequent, their effects etc etc. For Anet its not feasable right now to do that Extra Work.

And a Story Mode without Rewards? After a short Time it would be really hard to find People interested for Story Mode.

If they cannot do it right, then they shouldn’t do it. The negative impacts (splintering the community, walling off important story steps, etc) just aren’t worth it.

That said, I think expanding raids to be more inclusive is worth the investment (and I’m not convinced that investment would be as large as people think).

I don’t think removing raids is the answer. But raiding has changed the nature of the game and it is definitely not for the better.

GW2 is no longer the friendliest community in MMO gaming – something the developers bragged about at one point. If anything, it is now one of the most toxic environments in gaming. That is evident both on these forums and in the game itself.

And, that is because of how they chose to implement raids. When you build PVE content for segments of your population based on difficulty (with no provisions for the rest of your PVE community), you can’t then be surprised when the community fractures into opposing factions based on those segments.

Yes some of this existed with dungeons before, but the current toxicity around group (and even guild) kicks and elitism can be traced back to the introduction of raiding in its current form. Enrage timers (with no other form of raiding) and other similar artificial barriers only serve to punish diversity and limit strategic choices. This causes people to single out those who do not conform to a specific meta or playstyle. In fractals and dungeons (even the hardest ones), these lines were still there, but they were much grayer. In raids, because of enrage timers, its often now “play my way or GTFO.”

Every other raiding MMO out there sees this and makes provisions for it. Whether they use multiple raid tiers (preferred solution) or natural content obsolescence through gear and level treadmills (no a good solution for GW2), they realize (or came to realize over time) he importance of including all PVE players (especially where story is involved). And Astralporing is definitely right about LFR (and more recently flex raiding) in WoW – it didn’t kill game interest. If anything, it justified continue investment in raids – and, based on what my friends say, actually saved the game.

I will say it again. Raiding has changed GW2 – and not for the better. That doesn’t mean raiding (even at its current or higher difficulty) doesn’t have a place in the game.

It just means that locking one aspect of PVE away and saying “this is where the big kids play” is (of course) going to create (actually has created) cliques in the game in ways that other content approaches never did.

GW2 went from one of the friendliest communities around to one where certain groups of player now feel superior to others and are happy to call attention to that through insults, nasty posts on the forums, exclusionary behavior in game and many other ways.

I want the GW2 community we had in the first few years of the game back – and Anet can make that happen. Stop with the walled off content – build a game for everyone and then look at how you can add in tiered difficulty (through levels, challenge motes, achievements, etc) to ensure the game remain engaging for all.

AliamRationem.5172:

Blaeys.3102:

Bringing raids into the game changed the community and how people interact with one another – and not for the better.

A lot of people are waiting to see what they do next – whether they continue to develop content that divides the population or they get back to the inclusion and community that made this the best MMO – and among the best video games – ever.

For many, the direction they go with future raid design will determine whether or not this is the right game for the communities they have built. I know that sounds alarmist – and that is on purpose. The further down the road of us and them (or “hardcore and casual” or “raider and non raider”) they go, the worse this will get.

The exclusionary nature of raids has split the PVE community – and many guilds – in ways that simply are not good for the long term enjoyment of this game (or at least the game many of us bought 4 years ago).

I’m not saying the game will die – just that it is no longer being developed for the same audience that made the game a success – and that is sad.

There’s no exclusion going on in my guild. If you want to raid, you can raid. We aren’t progressing quickly (only VG down so far!), but nobody cares. If we have enough people who want to raid, then that’s what we do. Casual raiding at its best. Find yourself a casual guild that raids. Problem solved.

If you have no interest in raids and simply can’t abide development toward areas of the game that don’t interest you, then please remember that this isn’t YOUR game. It’s OUR game. And a lot of us appreciate the addition of raids.

Having said that, I think we could be on the same side here. Ultimately, what I’d like to see is development toward areas of the game I personally have interest in, as well as areas that aren’t my cup of tea. Why? Because this game would be pretty lonely if I had to play it by myself!

This “us vs. them” mentality gets us nowhere.

I think we probably are on the same side here. I think raids can be an ongoing part of the game – but they need to be developed with a broader audience in mind. No other successful MMO incorporates raiding with such a limited scope. They understand that a range of difficulties or entry points is needed to properly give PVE players the raiding experience.

I also think you may have taken the “us vs them” comment incorrectly. What I’m saying is that we – both in the game and on these forums – are already seeing this happen. Just look at this very thread. You have someone – just a few posts before yours – saying that players looking for a casual experience should “play a different game.” That is the “us vs them” attitude and atmosphere that raiding in its current form has brought to GW2.

Compare that to the atmosphere in the months after the game’s launch – and for most of the game’s life, and I don’t think you can say that raiding – in its current form – has been good for the game.

Bringing raids into the game changed the community and how people interact with one another – and not for the better.

A lot of people are waiting to see what they do next – whether they continue to develop content that divides the population or they get back to the inclusion and community that made this the best MMO – and among the best video games – ever.

For many, the direction they go with future raid design will determine whether or not this is the right game for the communities they have built. I know that sounds alarmist – and that is on purpose. The further down the road of us and them (or “hardcore and casual” or “raider and non raider”) they go, the worse this will get.

The exclusionary nature of raids has split the PVE community – and many guilds – in ways that simply are not good for the long term enjoyment of this game (or at least the game many of us bought 4 years ago).

I’m not saying the game will die – just that it is no longer being developed for the same audience that made the game a success – and that is sad.

With the introduction and heavy focus on raids, they have changed the focus of end game in GW2 entirely.

I’m gonna get a little cynical here, but it is past time for it. The current direction of the game needs to change.

Where this was once a game that was focused on providing the ultimate ever changing experience for open world gamers (a living world), it is now focused on who can get the most damage out of ascended gear and builds.

It isn’t about building community any longer. It is about enticing raiders from other games to come to GW2 and build the same easy to maintain end game here that exist in those other games.

It isn’t about tearing down walls and giving everyone a fun community centered experience any more. It is about a “this is my part of the game and that is yours – now just go back to it and shut up” mentality.

In my opinion, the addition of raids has been anything but positive for this game’s community. The sad part is, they could have put the same innovative spirit into raids that they did with the rest of the game at launch, and they chose not to – solely to make marketing to raiders from other games easier (imo).

I think, before they even consider putting out another raid, they need to think hard about the way raiding fits into the overall GW2 picture. It can still be a positive influence on the game – it can still offer the difficult experience that many want – but it needs to take a different form (or better yet, multiple tiered forms) that fits with the community focus they instilled in the game day one (and for the 3 years that followed).

The alternative is potentially losing the interest of many many (potentially the majority of) players. I know that sounds alarmist, but the reality is the game was successful at launch primarily because it offered something different from those other games out there. The way raids were introduced is a huge step backwards and is offputting to many people.

Absurdo.8309:

Blaeys.3102:

Absurdo.8309

And if your 1000 person guild can’t raid, well, that’s a pretty bad guild. I’m sure some people in a big guild raid. Get them together and hop in.

Maybe the reason he is in that guild has nothing to do with raiding. It has to do with finding a group of people he enjoys playing with and wants to experience the game with.

With my guild, the barrier for entry is “low drama” and a willingness to have fun in large groups.

Excluding people because they are not good raiders – or leaving a guild for the same reason – is anti-social, pure and simple, and goes against everything I started playing GW2 for.

This also illustrates the need for different tiers of difficulty perfectly. Personally, I like the challenge of the raid. I like min/maxing and taking on the challenge. But, I would also love to experience that content at a lesser difficulty with my friends who are less interested in those things. Every other successful raiding MMO out there offers that experience. It is sad that the most social MMO on the market chooses not to. It is time to fix this disparity.

And, once again, I really disagree with the “doesn’t raid well = bad guild mentality.” That is the kind of elitism we never want to see in this game (and rarely did before raids in their current form came along).

If you can’t find people to raid with in a 1000 man guild, then the guild is either extremely specialized or a pretty bad guild.

Or it is a guild built around community and low drama instead of raiding.

I understand the need for some to push the “raids are for us only” mentality, but this is taking it a little too far, imo. Leave the insults out of it.

Every successful raiding game realizes the importance of varied raiding experiences to provide the greatest level of entertainment to the community as a whole.

Here is a dose of reality for people – GW2 chose to do what they did for one reason and one reason only, imo -

Marketing.

The game had the reputation of being a casual focused game. They wanted to bring in new players and decided to target raiders. They chose not to include a more varied experience because they wanted to be able to tout the “hardcore” label without people bringing up the easier modes. They wanted to be able to brag about player “tears” because they thought (misguided, imo) that is what would bring raiders from other games to GW2.

The problem is, this approach took them away from their roots. It transformed the end game away from the inclusive nature we saw at launch and for the first three years. Even worse, it is splintering the community (and even splintering some very good guilds).

The worst part is it isn’t necessary. Every other raiding game out there realizes this (or came to realize it after time). They all (at least the successful one) offer some kind of tiered difficulty or mechanic to appeal to the community as a whole.

The ability to market “hardcore” isn’t worth the schism in the community. It isn’t worth the transformation of GW2 end game away from the community and inclusionary focus that made the game great/different when it first came out.

And, for the love of everything, do not call some of the best, most social guilds in the game “bad” simply because they don’t offer raiding. That is just insulting and plain wrong (but the fact that someone would make that statement at all does clearly illustrate the divisive nature of raids as they currently exist in GW2).

Absurdo.8309

And if your 1000 person guild can’t raid, well, that’s a pretty bad guild. I’m sure some people in a big guild raid. Get them together and hop in.

Maybe the reason he is in that guild has nothing to do with raiding. It has to do with finding a group of people he enjoys playing with and wants to experience the game with.

With my guild, the barrier for entry is “low drama” and a willingness to have fun in large groups.

Excluding people because they are not good raiders – or leaving a guild for the same reason – is anti-social, pure and simple, and goes against everything I started playing GW2 for.

This also illustrates the need for different tiers of difficulty perfectly. Personally, I like the challenge of the raid. I like min/maxing and taking on the challenge. But, I would also love to experience that content at a lesser difficulty with my friends who are less interested in those things. Every other successful raiding MMO out there offers that experience. It is sad that the most social MMO on the market chooses not to. It is time to fix this disparity.

And, once again, I really disagree with the “doesn’t raid well = bad guild mentality.” That is the kind of elitism we never want to see in this game (and rarely did before raids in their current form came along).

This is one of the reasons every other successful raiding game out there offers multiple tiered raiding experiences. It allows people to gain experience and see mechanics in a less stressful environment before moving on to the harder versions (if they so desire). It really needs to happen in GW2 as well.

Given the number of people bringing this up and their positive history of actually listening to players in the past, I have to think this is something they are strongly considering for future raids (or at least I hope it is).

People are misinterpreting many of the reasons people want a story mode or tiered difficulty.

First, by choosing to introduce the antagonist and plot line from the next living story (most likely) in this content, they are leaving people out of the story. You may say things like “but there isn’t much story there” or “you can read it somewhere else,” but it doesn’t change the fact that this is an important part of the next story – it was the big reveal. That should be accessible to anyone wanting to experience (not just see it) – simply because, without that experience, there is considerably less excitement for what comes next.

Second, this isn’t a new concept. Pretty much every successful game out there with raids includes tiered difficulty or some other mechanic to ensure raids aren’t just for the most dedicated. They do that for good reason – it drums up more interest in raids, gives people a place to see and get used to mechanics before diving in and removes some of the frustration that comes with learning to raid.

Finally, as Assic notes above, raids aren’t necessarily hard (this is true in most raiding games). It is about time – the time to build out a character, to learn to play that character and to learn the dance steps of the raid encounters (it can be little more than a big memorization game in many cases). GW2 has always been the MMO for people with less time. That has been always been one of the game’s primary selling points. It is why I left a hardcore WoW raiding guild (after 6+ years) to come to GW2. The Anet approach to raids takes the game in a direction that doesn’t really fit with the rest of the game.

I don’t know if it will make a difference. It may be that the developers are dead set against this kind of change and we are stuck with what we’ve got. I for one hope that is not the case (thus my passion and willingness to tolerate the forum rage to press the point). GW2 has always been about innovation and community. I want to see a little more of both in their raid design.

Absurdo.8309:

The reality is that the lore in raids is a side show. That said, under your standard, no hard content could ever have any lore elements at all. Seems like a waste given how varied gw2 lore can be. And we’ve already had much more relevant lore behind hard content before — see arah and aether path.

The problem is, if the next LS chapter centers on the White Mantle conflict, then this raid story is most definitely not a side show – it is chapter one.

If the difficulty were on par with Arah or Aetherpath, I would be very pleased. Those were well designed instances. The big difference comes when they add enrage timers – which force people down specific metas and severely limit the strategic and tactical choices a group can make when dealing with an encounter. For me, creating an easy mode may be as easy as removing the timers (or going with the gold/silver/bronze reward system from the rest of the game – just based on kill time).

Again, I hope this is something they look at and consider strongly. There are a lot of people out there who could and would enjoy the experience.

It isn’t about making sure were informed – it is about experiencing the full story.

I can have someone tell me about the first 3o minutes of a movie and I will understand what is going on, but it isn’t the same as actually seeing it. This is even more true when we are talking about interactive storytelling.

Season 3 may come around and prove me wrong, but if season 3 is centered around a conflict with the White Mantle, then those who don’t raid will be coming into the movie 30 minutes late – they will have essentially been left out of chapter one (again, even worse since video games are about the player’s experience as much as the story itself).

I know it means more developmental work, but walling off an entire game mode and saying “this is where the hardcore kids play” is not conducive to a good storytelling environment.

PVE content should be developed around the story – with all players in mind. Then you should incorporate variable difficulties (through achievements, challenge motes, tiered levels, etc) that give players of all skill levels and interests something to do in all of those modes. There is no reason for raids to be this exclusive – just as there is no reason you cannot put optional facemelting challenges in a fractals/ story steps / even world bosses (using phasing via the guild event trigger flags).

Raids cannot be walled away (even a soft difficulty-based wall) if they are part of the story. Its like writing a book for an English speaking audience and then writing the prologue/introduction in Latin (yes, I could learn Latin, but I bought a book I thought I could read in English).

Build the game for your community – and then deal with the variables therein.

Word of advice – delete all of your placed decorations before making the change. The two halls are apparently not at the same level vertically and you will end up with some things in weird spots – including some that are VERY difficult to individually delete.

I speak from experience .

I think it will all come down to what they consider to be part of a living story chapter.

If, every 2-3 months we get a substantial chunk of content, including new open world maps and guild focused content, then I am all for it.

The last new PVE guild missions were added to the game on May 28, 2013 – more than three years ago – when we got Angvar’s Trove, the rush in Southsun, the challenge in Southsun and a small handful of new bounty targets.

Since then, my guild has not missed a single week. We have done every one of these missions dozens of times.

Just before HOT launched, I asked the question about whether or not we would see new pve missions with the expansion launch and Colin Johannson answered, no, but that they would be coming soon – and that he was “very excited” to see what the team could do with missions in the new maps.

I have started multiple threads on these forums asking about missions. I love guild missions. My guild really loves guild missions. Every week, someone in the group asks, do you think they will be giving us new ones soon?

I try not to direct threads or posts on the forums directly to developers, but it is something that needs to be asked at this point -

Are guild missions still supported?

Is there a team at ArenaNet working on new ones?

If so, is there any chance we will see new ones in the next three years?

I know you don’t typically answer questions like this, but it has been a while. Anything you can say at this point is welcome.

TheShniper.1852:

Ita a raid. It was our in the game to be hard content. If u cant do hard content then dont do it. Sorry? Its not that hard to actually learn the raids or to find a teaching guild or group. Im sorry if your mmo isnt minecraft lvl in terms of difficulty. This game is beyond catered to casual players hit some “better” players wanted “hard” content and that is what they got. These posts are getting annoying id like to say

No one is trying to take away the hard content.

fishball.7204:

If you had hard and easy mode with same/similar rewards, a lot of the current players that raid will just opt for the easy one because even though they can do the challenge of the hard raid, there’s no point to, for them.

That is why you make sure hard mode rewards significantly better than easier mode.

For most, this has is about the experience, not the elite rewards. Of course more effort should equal greater reward.

If they did this, I could potentially see myself doing both each week. At least once with the team I am raiding with now and at least once with my friends who aren’t interested in the current difficulty.

Rising Dusk.2408:

Mr Godlike.6098:

I assume you want to cheer me up and thanks for that but I didn’t write here to rant or talk about my raiding problem. I wrote about quite a lot of people problem with raids.

It is a problem that is easily overcome by perseverance and a little resourcefulness. It’s also not a problem anyone at ANet can help you with, so it’s truly in your hands.

If it is something people see as an issue, it is something worth bringing to the attention of the developers. it may not make a difference, but more information is always better than less.

Absurdo.8309

I do appreciate civility. It’s refreshing?

That doesn’t mean there’s no right answer, or that both sides have parity in their arguments. Put another way, anet must make a yes/no decision on easy mode raids.

I still would like to hear a (coherent) argument from first principles. That is,

Why do raids, in particular, need an easy mode?

Again, I have no desire to straw man, but here’s the top three responses:

1. Because I must be able to complete all content

2. Because I want the rewards

3. Because I want to experience the lore

And, well, these responses are just not in line with the rest of the game, as:

1. There’s always been hard content. And there’s plenty of easy and medium content

2. All game modes have unique rewards

3. The lore in raids is not super relevant, and more relevant lore is behind hard content.

Give me a solid foundation to argue against. Without that, the technical points don’t really matter.

Right and wrong in this instance is subjective. We both think we are right – and regardless of which direction they go, that will not change.

When I look at your 3 points, I don’t see the reasons I want tiered difficulty. My reasons would be -

1. To ensure that the story told in GW2 is accessible to PVE players with multiple playstyles and interest.

2. To provide another fun and interesting activity for me and my friends, even those who aren’t hardcore raiders (I dislike the exclusionary nature of raiding).

3. To increase interest in raiding from more people – which in turn will justify ongoing investment in raiding (all levels of raiding).

Please note that point one isn’t necessarily about lore – it is about experiencing the story. If Anet chose to leave story completely out of raids, you could take this point off. However, by introducing the likely storyline from Season 3 and the likely antagonists, they made this raid chapter one in the player’s story. That is upsetting for those players who simply do not enjoy raiding in its current form.

To your final 3 points, yes, there should be hard content, just as there should be easy content. What I don’t like is an entire game mode dedicated to one or the other. Raids, fractals, open world, even living story – all should include a range of difficulty levels and experiences. Yes, that requires more resources, but I think its worth investing those resources (which is probably where our opinions differ the greatest).

Different rewards in different game modes based on difficulty – of course. I agree 100% with you on that one.

And again, I am not discussing lore but rather the ability to experience important points in the story (and the introduction of the storyline and primary antagonists is an important point).

And, thank you as well for the civility. That comment wasn’t necessarily directed at you. While you and I obviously disagree strongly on this issue, Ive never found you to be overly antagonistic (unlike some others – including one who decided to chase me down in game and berate me for my words here on the forums).

The idea of raids having to be the most difficult content in the game is based on preconceived notions from other games (and it isn’t necessarily true in those games).

A raid is a 10 player instance. That is all it is. It is another place for us to play the game. Designing it for a small percentage of pve players makes no sense, imo.

I think the most legit argument against a casual mode in raids is the developer time argument. Unfortunately, the only ones that can speak to this point are the developers. I can posit it isn’t an issue and someone else can posit that it is. The truth is neither of us knows.

The idea that a casual mode raid would somehow split the raid community or harm the current raid structure doesn’t really makes sense to me. Ive seen a lot of people try raids and quickly decide that they weren’t worth the headache. To them, it just felt like a neverending cycle of fail with no reward (tangible or otherwise). They still wanted to raid (play interesting content with 9 other people), but did not like the time and detail commitment involved.

A lower difficulty raid would enhance the raid pool in two ways. First, it would give the people I discuss above a place to ease into raiding – still seeing some success while they learn the basics of the mechanics in a less demanding setting that offered some minor reward (could be very minor).

Second, it would offer a place for higher groups to provide training and it would offer guild leaders like myself a place to quickly take people from my guild into a fun activity (and fun should still be important, even in raids).

To the idea of gameplay before lore or lore before gameplay, different people weigh the importance of these things differently – which is the entire reason different tiers of difficulty are needed. That is just common sense.

For the record, if the difficulty were on par with something like Aetherpath (which I think is some of the best designed content in the game), I would be fully behind it. The fights there were designed to reward skill and teamwork without excluding builds, armor sets, etc. There was no reliance on artificial barriers such as enrage timers – which only serve to enforce stricter meta builds (which, imo, hurts gameplay diversity, but that is another topic altogether). If raids were designed that way, yes they would eventually become faceroll for a lot of people, but they would still offer real challenge without the exclusion factors we see now.

Finally, to the point of weak strawmans and the general direction of these discussions – there are people on both sides that will always see the other side’s argument as weak. It is because they (we, because I am probably one of these people) go into reading opposing posts with a preconception and strong desire to make sure their voice is the one listened to.

The reality is there is no real right and wrong here – just two opposing viewpoints from people who play the game differently. Neither is out to destroy the game for anyone. They (again, we) just have strong feelings about how the game should feel. Try to keep that in mind, keep the discussions civil, and focus on making your points as clearly as possible – and, most importantly, if you feel someone is wrong, debate the ideas without making it personal – do not belittle them or how they want to play the game.

Vinceman.4572:

So, raid lore is not a side story?

Well, then you think Bobby Stein is lying?

BobbyStein.2315:

• It will not be necessary to play Forsaken Thicket—or any future raid—in order to complete Living World or expansion stories. Raids do not gate main story progress.

• If any lore information from the raids is relevant to storylines in other content, we’ll make sure that information is also available in that other content.

• Raids are not part of our Living World episodes; they are separate game elements.

Again:

RAIDS DO NOT GATE MAIN STORY PROGRESS.

Not calling anyone a liar. I just don’t think they thought it through.

If the next LS is about us versus the White Mantle, then the experience in this raid was our introduction to that story line.

And the issue isn’t about gating. Of course we can still do the living story. The issue is about experiencing the important steps as the hero of our story. The approach they are taking leaves most of the players out of the first step of the next story.

If that doesn’t bother you, fine. I can see why people not interested in the story or LS seasons – or who are comfortable with the current raid model – wouldn’t have a problem.

It does bother me. Other games pour so much of their story into raids – they are a great storytelling tool. I think Anet sees that and is attempting to mirror that success. But – in every case I can think of – those other games offer multiple raiding experiences for players of different skill levels or level of commitment.

GW2 fails to do this. This part of the story is obviously important to the next living story season (it is chapter one). So again, it may not technically be gating, but it is definitely leaving a lot of people out – and placing a story reliance on raids that I am just not comfortable with as long as GW2 raids remain in their current state (thus my fervor on the forums related to the topic).

Miellyn.6847:

So you basically say that ArenaNet is not allowed to tell the same story twice in different areas because some people can’t the one of the areas?

Of course I’m not saying that. Don’t be silly.

I’m also not saying raids are a bad thing or that there shouldn’t be difficult content in the game.

I’m saying that the narrative is a very important part of the interactive experience of GW2, and that raiding in its current form is restrictive and exclusionary. With those two points in mind, it is bad form to limit important story steps (like the reveal of the White Mantle’s return and the dialogue related to Mursaat) to raids.

This isn’t a book. It isn’t a TV show. It is interactive storytelling. Players need to feel like they are the hero of the story. Anet just made the decision to leave a huge percentage of their playerbase out of the start of the next story. For many of us, that will definitely hurt excitement levels going into the rest of it.

I made this post in the hopes that they stop and consider that before doing something like this in the future (or, better yet, that they develop a way for all players to more easily experience – not just visit or read about – the raid story).

After seeing what they have done and reading the reaction across the web (from players, reviewers and media alike), I have a much deeper issue with what has happened.

If they want to include raiding in the storytelling process, then accessibility is a big deal. All of the arguments about “raids have to be hard,” or “just find someone to carry you” really don’t fly.

Look at what they have just done. They (most likely) introduced the antagonist and primary conflict point of the next living story season (The return of the White Mantle) in a raid designed for a small percentage of the playerbase.

That means anyone that chooses not to raid – or doesn’t have the skill or patience required for raiding – was just left out of the first chapter of this story. They missed out on playing a pivotal role in that revelation. Even if they were to let people replay that introduction in some form during living story, the cat is now out of the bag. The opportunity has passed.

From a storytelling perspective that is bad. From an experiential storytelling perspective, it is disgusting.

They can say that they will cover all of this outside of raids as much as they want. But, what they actually just did is consciously leave a huge percentage of the playerbase out of what is arguably one of the most important parts of the story. For many, that will reduce both their excitement and their anticipation of the rest of the story.

Bad form.

Poor storytelling.

To the developers – either leave story out of raids or make experiencing them (not just taking a tour after someone else plays the role of the hero) considerably more accessible.

NOTE: I always go out of my way when posting on these forums to not point fingers or be overly negative, but what they have said (in this very thread) and what they have done in game are directly contradictory. It feels like there was a breakdown in communication between the teams at Anet. I love this game. I respect what they have done. But this is wrong.

Absurdo.8309:

I don’t understand – is your lore argument hypothetical? Or does it actually impact you?

I’m not sure why a wide range of experience has to be through raids, there’s plenty of other content.

And you put anet in a tough position — either they can’t make hard content with lore flavor, or they must design one-off easy modes for everything. I’d rather have those resources but towards something that’s closer to your goals, like living story.

And, for what it’s worth, I think arah has much more lore, was on a similar hard difficulty level, and they never made an easy mode for these. Rather, there was always other easy and medium content, and the main lore story wasn’t that hard.

It is most definitely not hypothetical.

My primary enjoyment in this game comes from playing with my friends and my guildees. Guild mission night is my favorite night of the week, even though we haven’t seen new guild missions in more than 3 years now. That content is basically dead – but 30-60 of us still get together every Monday night to do it. It is about community.

Right now, I am experiencing the raid story/experience with a small percentage of that guild – and I’m hearing people I care about lament because they aren’t a part of that experience. You can call it anything you want. I see people who want to be part of the story being left out – people I care about and want to play with.

I respect that this provides a developmental challenge. But, I also see that other games – through a variety of tools – have designed ways to deal with it (flex raiding, for example). That is something Anet could easily (imo) fix – without detracting from the hardcore raiding experience. Once a system is implemented (and Anet is pro at coming up with unique solutions to these kinds of issues), then the ongoing content would be easier to drop in.

I want raiding to be a part of the experiential storytelling in GW2 for years to come. I want there to be that hardcore element in the game that challenges us to the point of bloody eyes.

But, first and foremost, I want a place for the communities (like my guild and our sister guilds) to enjoy playing together regardless of the time we spend specializing our toons. That is the game I came to and experience I bought into almost 4 years ago.

And I want that experience to potentially include the ENTIRE story.

Absurdo.8309:

Blaeys.3102:

The topic here is access to the experiential story (ie, being the protagonist in a fun and engaging narrative). The current raid design limits that access and I feel that is bad for the community as a whole and general flow of the storytelling process.

I agree with you that name calling is not warranted. But I’m somewhat sympathetic — this subform gets some comments that directly contradict dev statements and are so exotic that they border on the ridiculous.

As to the merits of your suggestion, raids are not living story, and they are ill suited to serve the purposes you suggest. Raids need to be hard and repeatable, and living story doesn’t.

And add to varying difficulties, well, you have it. There’s so much easy and medium tier content in this game. And, personally, I’d rather have different content than difficulty levels for everything. If I want easy content I world boss or do cof. If I want medium tier I do fractals. If I want hard I do raids. It would be boring if it was all the same.

And, please, please, actually try a raid. I think you’ll find how little lore there is in the actual boss fights. And, if you can’t beat it, you’ll get the “lore” that only the bravest and skilled were able to challenge these bosses.

I am raiding (leading groups, actually) – every week – with multiple guild teams. My friends look to me as their guild leader to lead – so I do it. I min-max my chronotank in a mix of commanders/assassins and zerker gear, and I’m very good at playing it.

On top of that, I’m an old school raider. I led progression level raids in WoW (10 and 25 man – even back to 40 man) for more than 6 years. I even led a group with some world first achievements (including one of the hardest ones in the game on Mimiron’s Head in Ulduar).

I understand the appeal of raiding. I understand the appeal of hardcore content.

I also came to GW2 for a different kind of experience. I came here because the developers, at launch, understood the importance of community above all else.

I mentioned that I lead 2 guild groups every week. My guild has more than 100 active members right now. We keep it active through the drought by engaging in weekly open world events, guild missions, guild hall silliness and much more. As part of that, I see the angst and hear the issues of many different kinds of players – most of whom will never post anything on these forums (many because they just don’t want to deal with the vitriol – and many because they are more introverted than I am).

And right now, I see a need for a deeper more inclusive raid experience. I see it not because I am against the current raiding structure (I would continue raiding the current versions even with changes). I see it because I see a vast group of players (my guildees) who are starting to feel left out of the experience (again, key word) of raiding because they choose to play slightly differently than I do.

What it comes down to – in relation to this thread is -if raids are going to be part of the player’s story in GW2, then they need to be designed with that goal in mind. I do not want to lose the harder core experience (in fact, I want it expanded to the rest of the game). I just don’t see it as the most important element in this particular game.

The most important element here is community – and a wider range of raiding experiences would only serve to make the community stronger, imo.

aelfwe.4239:

(see above post)

I just want to have a civil conversation about the topic of the thread without the insults. All they do is turn people away from the forums and make people reticent about posting their thoughts here.

Last week, I was actually tracked down and verbally attacked in game for something I posted here on the forums.

People are starting to become afraid to speak up here because they don’t want to deal with the vitriol and unnecessary namecalling and insults.

This is a topic many of us find important and we really don’t want to see it derailed and closed like some other recent similar threads.

I think you have a cogent argument for your side of this. I disagree with it, but I think you are entitled to making that argument. In fact, I welcome the diatribe.

Back on topic – note that, if you go back and read my post, I did not make any of the statements you use in your example.

Here are my key points:

• Experiential storytelling means the player experiences the content (they are the protagonist).

• Not everyone wants to make the ingame commitment needed to regularly clear raids in their current form.

• Currently, that means those players do not get to be the protagonist for part of their ingame story.

• Other games make provisions for this and it is something that (I believe) Anet should make provisions for as well. I do not think it has to be a major developmental undertaking as well. They could, for instance, just let us take groups of 15-20 into the raid without scaling it up (and, of course, without the more prestigious rewards given to those players taking on the challenge).

• Again, hardcore content has a place in the game and, if anything, it is underutilized. Let the raid team design us a few 100+ level fractals or a face melting instanced version of Shadow Behemoth (again triggered via guild event flags would be awesome). There should be a range of difficulties, but everything story related should be accessible to wider groups.

Most importantly, let’s have the dialogue and refrain from making it personal. Let’s all work to provide a discussion that devs can look to and say – “these players, even though they disagree, are trying to make the game more fun/a better place.”

First, let’s leave the personal attacks and insults out of this discussion. Forums are the place for people to express opinion and civilly discuss things like this. Calling people cryers, belittling people for enjoying aspects of the game and other such comments drive the discussion off track and are counterproductive to the process.

Second, to the point of this thread – yes, raids can be an effective part of the storytelling process. We see it work in other games.

The reason it works well in other games however is because – in the games that are actually successful – raids are not designed exclusively for small percentages of the player base. Invariably, there are mechanics that allow players of all skill levels to experience (not just visit after a clear) the content.

The most common example is the gear and level treadmill (which, of course, we never want in GW2), which ensures that every player, regardless of playtime commitment can eventually get that experience. Other, more recent and common tools include flex raiding (allowing different sized groups in) and yes, story mode raiding (called LFR raiding in most games).

This is the element missing from GW2 raiding. There is no real provision for those story minded raiders and other players the way there is in those other games. What makes it even worse is that GW2 was the most open and accessible game in terms of experiential storytelling in the industry – prior to raids. Since we all agree that they should never bring treadmills into this game, that leaves variable difficulty levels. And it really needs to happen.

That isn’t crying – it isn’t carebearing – and it isn’t an attempt to take raiding away from harder-core players (and, as you can probably tell, I don’t respond well to the insults designed to derail conversations) – it is a sincere attempt to make the game better by returning some of the accessibility this game is known for and getting it back on track from an experiential story perspective.

And, for the 1000th time, I’m not against hardcore content in the game. I love having the game challenge me. In fact, I would like it if they offered a range from casual to hardcore in EVERY aspect of the game (a hardcore version of Shatterer or Shadow Behemoth accessible via the guild event flag system would be amazing, imo).

The topic here is access to the experiential story (ie, being the protagonist in a fun and engaging narrative). The current raid design limits that access and I feel that is bad for the community as a whole and general flow of the storytelling process.

The idea that players can be part of the story of raids by watching a video, entering a cleared instance or reading a few lines of text is a bit ridiculous.

Players want to experience the game, not watch it from the outside in. At launch, Anet understood this very well – one of the first things every player got to hear their character say was “this is MY story.” And, then, the gameplay and amazing innovation the developers gave us backed that up.

In my opinion, at some point between launch and the current game, that core game ideal has been lost – or at least muddied a little. The development goals seems to be more focused on bringing different kinds of players into the game than on making sure every player gets the best story telling experience possible.

Raids. Living Story. Open World Maps. Fractals. Dynamic Events. Guild Missions. All of these can come together to help the developers tell some pretty amazing stories. And they can all include a range of experiences and difficulties without excluding anyone.

There are ways to design raids that offer both the elite difficulty experience some players really want while still offering a unique experience to the more casual player. This is something many of us have been asking for since the first time a developer mentioned the word raid on these forums (one of the most requested features during the CDI with Chris Whitesides was variable or scaling difficulty – and was even something he promised us would be – at minimum – discussed before raiding became a reality).

Offering a mea culpa of “you can go into a cleared instance” as a tourist after the fact is a poor solution that only illustrates the need for a less intensive raiding experience more than ever.

Here is one EXTREMELY simplistic example of how they could easily open this to more people without taking the experience or reward away from current raiders -

Allow groups of more than 10 people to enter the raid – without scaling the boss, but disable achievements/titles/magnetite shard rewards/unique drops while doing so.

That way, a group of 15 (or 20 or 25) could go in and burn down the boss, experience the fight (in a manner of speaking), experience the lore, etc. Keep a small – once a week – gold and champion loot box reward (comparable to world bosses) to ensure the content is worth repeating.

Problem solved for everyone. Developers don’t need to put extra effort into additional modes. Raiders still get their challenge/unique rewards/sense of accomplishment. Lorehounds still get the experience of actually EXPERIENCING the story. General PVE players still get something new when raids come out. Win-Win (win-win).

Of course, I say this not knowing how difficult it would be to program, but it seems like it would be very similar to how they allow larger groups into guild challenges now (with this model, raid bosses could even become future guild challenges ). Regardless, I think it would be worth the (hopefully minimal) effort.

I know someone will have issue with this, but I really think it would work – and it would definitely make the forums a little friendlier .

Absurdo.8309:

Blaeys.3102:

Lord Darghaz.2314:

Rednik.3809:

I’m playing this game more than majority of raiders. I don’t want to play raids because I had more than enough of them in WoW and this game promised to be not wow-like.
So what exactly wrong with asking for not wow-like endgame and wow-like endgame rewards model? Like, you know, fractals, pvp, wvw, all that stuff that was working as endgame pretty great for everyone, before anet decided to drop everything and pump out content and shinies for raids only?

I wonder why people cant stop calling games with raids “WoW clone” or “WoW-like”
GW2 is now WoW-like because WoW introduced raids earlier?
ok…
As far as i know, fishes were one of the first living things that had eyes.
Lets assume you have eyes, too.
Congratulations, i guess you are fish-like now

I am sure you got the idea.

GW2 is far away from being WoW-like.
And tbh i think you just want to provoke with this “wow-like” thing.

When this game came out, it was an improvement over the typical “wow-like” model in just about every way – scaling zones, scaling based on group size, no trinity, dynamic event system, shared resource nodes, and so on (a lot of things).

When raids were introduced, instead of applying that same level of innovation and creativity, they chose to carbon copy almost every core raiding mechanic used by Blizzard – reintroduced the trinity, no scaling, heavy reliance on enrage mechanics, etc. I’m not saying they should have scaled or gone non-trinity. I’m saying that the Anet team didn’t create GW2 raids – they just lifted the exact same model used in that game in the (most likely) attempt to up numbers by dragging raiders from that game into GW2.

I just wish they had put the same creative effort into the core raiding system that they obviously did in every other core element of the game.

What constructively would you change? I see nothing but criticism in this post.

There is an entire CDI full of ideas – all of which I’m sure would pale in comparison to what the Anet team – if they put the same creativity into raiding they put into the game’s launch – would come up with.

And to your earlier point about difficulty levels and the example of a world boss – While I think raids should have a more casual mode, I also think open world bosses should have a more hardcore mode/rewards – accessed through the same mechanic guilds currently use to access guild challenges (triggered instances – possibly using the guild event item scribes make).

A wider range of difficulties – across all game modes – is something we should all want.

Lord Darghaz.2314:

Rednik.3809:

I’m playing this game more than majority of raiders. I don’t want to play raids because I had more than enough of them in WoW and this game promised to be not wow-like.
So what exactly wrong with asking for not wow-like endgame and wow-like endgame rewards model? Like, you know, fractals, pvp, wvw, all that stuff that was working as endgame pretty great for everyone, before anet decided to drop everything and pump out content and shinies for raids only?

I wonder why people cant stop calling games with raids “WoW clone” or “WoW-like”
GW2 is now WoW-like because WoW introduced raids earlier?
ok…
As far as i know, fishes were one of the first living things that had eyes.
Lets assume you have eyes, too.
Congratulations, i guess you are fish-like now

I am sure you got the idea.

GW2 is far away from being WoW-like.
And tbh i think you just want to provoke with this “wow-like” thing.

When this game came out, it was an improvement over the typical “wow-like” model in just about every way – scaling zones, scaling based on group size, no trinity, dynamic event system, shared resource nodes, and so on (a lot of things).

When raids were introduced, instead of applying that same level of innovation and creativity, they chose to carbon copy almost every core raiding mechanic used by Blizzard – reintroduced the trinity, no scaling, heavy reliance on enrage mechanics, etc. I’m not saying they should have scaled or gone non-trinity. I’m saying that the Anet team didn’t create GW2 raids – they just lifted the exact same model used in that game in the (most likely) attempt to up numbers by dragging raiders from that game into GW2.

I just wish they had put the same creative effort into the core raiding system that they obviously did in every other core element of the game.

BobbyStein.2315:

I just wanted to call out your thoughtful and informative post. You’re exactly right. A person can get pretty much all of the optional and supplementary lore by exploring a cleared raid instance. They will miss out on character interactions, enemy dialog, and player commentary that would be triggered during fights, however.

We try to structure the cleared raid instance experience to still convey all the most important bits of the narrative. If we’re not meeting that expectation, then we’ll have to look at ways to improve this. You’ve all given us some great feedback for consideration. Thanks for that.

People want to be active participants in the story – not tourists invited in after the action is over.

Yes, raids should offer a very difficult experience, but imo, so should fractals, living story, jumping puzzles, even world bosses (using instanced fights accessed via the guild event banner scribes make) – pretty much the entire game. At the same time, those game modes should offer accessibility to those less than hardcore players as well (and so should raids).

IMO, GW2 should have taken a different approach in designing raids. Every other part of this game is innovative to the point of brilliance – showcasing your teams’ amazing brand of game design and ability to take MMOs to the next level (outside of raids, GW2 is the best designed MMO of all time, imo).

With raids, Anet chose the vanilla cookie cutter approach instead (even after dozens of people offered other options and asked for more during the CDI with Chris Whitesides), and that is, imo, sad.

I am glad you see that there is an issue here that goes deeper than just “come in after and see.” That is promising and, as always, I appreciate the high level of participation you and the team take in community outreach.

This will all be moot soon regardless – as soon as people actually have to spend those legendary insights to make gear. I wonder how many people will accept the answer “I would link my LIs, but I had to use them to make precursor armor” or, even better, not make the armor so they can continue to link insights

IMO, this is silliness only practiced by insecure raiders who need the people they bring into their groups to be capable of carrying them through fights.

BobbyStein.2315:

Siobhan.5273:

Sorry if I went OT, Bobby, I did try to bring it back to the central topic.

I understand why people are passionate about their opinions. I just want to make sure this remains a safe place for intelligent discussion. Thanks for bringing it back on topic.

I did step into the raid with my husband when it first came out and swiftly got my behind handed to me (surprise, surprise!) so this is actually good news to hear.

We wanted to experiment with the narrative design on this raid and also give folks an easy way to catch up on the story. I’m hopeful that this is a good first step.

Trust me, I know what it’s like to get destroyed repeatedly by a raid boss. I’m still learning the ropes and am looking to join a casual raiding guild. I just need to make the time!

For me, here is the problem -

It isn’t about keeping caught up on the story. It is about being part of the story – being an active participant in what happens in the gaming world.

At the same time, I understand the idea of “elite boss should equal elite challenge.” That makes sense.

But, here is where it falls apart – Three and a half years ago, you created an amazing game that took MMOs out of raid instances and into the open world. There really wasn’t an MMO out there like that at the time. The reigning champion – WOW – had some great leveling experiences in open world, but end game was all raiding (and pvp).

After years of experiencing that model, many of us were tired of it. We wanted a place where end game – and the story that went with it – included all of our friends, not just the 9 or 24 we happened to raid with (I’m saying that as someone that led hardcore end game progression raiding for 6+ years – including some world firsts). I know that is EXACTLY why I left World of Warcraft for Guild Wars 2. You were innovating and creating a fun game that was going in a different direction.

In my opinion, raiding – in its current (exclusive) format, cannot be part of the end game narrative and lore without having the game take a MASSIVE step backwards – bringing us right back to the problems that caused many of us to leave those other games in the first place.

That creates a conundrum – which I think is at the heart of why many pro-raiders have issues with posters in these threads. How do you do this while still providing content for highly skilled players to overcome? I sympathize with that issue, but I think you have taken a poor approach to solving it. The answer, imo, is to provide a range of difficulty across all content – through the use of things like fractal levels, challenge motes, hard core achievements and even scaling content. The answer is not to shut off one part of the game and say “this is where the big kids can play.”

Every part of the game should be designed with a range of players in mind. I realize this means more resources and actually getting creative as developers, but you have proven time and again that you know how to do these things.

So – raiding as “elite content” is a bad idea and lazy design (yes – LAZY), but not because there shouldn’t be elite content in the game. There should be elite challenges throughout the game – just as there should be accessibility and more casual experiences throughout the game – and (I don’t care what anyone says), that should include raids.

(and, for the record, I am leading raids successfully in the game – with two separate groups in my guild. I’m just very unhappy with the way raids are manifesting in the game)

I’m happy that people are enjoying raids – and I’m having fun in them myself – but many of us came to GW2 to get away from raid heavy communities like those in WoW. We want content that we can do in large groups – or in small chunks of time with small groups.

GW2 was the perfect game for people like us – one that focused on the community as a whole and that provided content designed to bring that community together in new and fun ways. And, just as importantly, one that was continually trying to give us something new to do in large groups. It can still be fun for us, but the past year has been disheartening and portentous of moving closer and closer to the models used by those games we left to come here.

A raid every now and then is fine, but ANet – if you’re listening – you need to get your focus back on what made end game in GW2 different from all of those raid focused games out there. Get back to new ways of bringing the larger community together to have fun on a regular basis. To me, that means laying off of raids for a while – at least until you can prove that you can balance developmental resources in better ways.

The heart and soul of GW2 isn’t in a 10 player instance – it’s out where every player lives and breathes in your game. Since September of last year, that part of the game has been slowly stagnating. You need to fix that – which probably means moving the focus away from raids for the foreseeable future..

Guild missions. Open world dynamic events. New maps. New collection events. New jumping puzzles. Creative ways to do things together in the world. These are the things my guild – and the guilds we play alongside ( altogether numbering several hundred active players) – are waiting (not so) patiently for.