Guild Wars 2

maddoctor.2738:

That’s not something the Raid team can help with I’m afraid. That’s the balance team’s problem and has been since forever.

Which is EXACTLY why tiered difficulties are needed. With the complexity of the GW2 build and profession systems, there will always be HUGE gaps between the top performing professions and those at the bottom (much more pronounced than those in games with simpler character build systems).

And, while there should be content balanced around or nearer to the top performers to ensure difficulty, there are many who get their primary enjoyment in GW2 from playing unique or more fun builds/playstyles.

Realistically, in order to have any shot at ever completing raiding content, those people currently have to compromise on the part of the game they really enjoy. And I’m not okay with that.

My stance is that there should be a complete raid experience for those people as well as those hardercore raiders who have less concern about compromising their playstyles in order to make raid content feasible when first starting out.

The balance issue will never go away (unless the balance team basically guts all professions and makes them play the same – which would be bad). That means the answer needs to come on the content design side – and the only way to do that is by varying the difficulty or hardcapped mechanics (eg, enrage timers in certain fights), allowing for a greater variety of playstyles (those willing to make the sacrifices should still get greater rewards, ofc).

Jockum.1385:

GW2 feels like it left out the basis when it comes to group oriented content.

I think this is important enough to call out and discuss.

While I still think raids need tiered difficulties (primarily to let people significantly deviating from the meta enjoy them), there is a major gap in group oriented content in the game.

I think guild missions were supposed to fill that gap – and still could. It truly is sad that the last new PVE mission we saw was more than 3.5 years ago – compounded by the developers saying on reddit that there are no plans to add to them in the foreseeable future.

While it wouldn’t solve the underlying issue with raids, it would make the current situation in game better for those organized guilds where large numbers of players find raids either out of their reach, have issues with their design model or simply want something that isn’t restricted to 5 or 10 people.

chronometria.3708:

One of the posters put above “just recognize that some content isn’t for you” and I think that is where the problem is to be found. I and a great many other players of GW2 did recognize that raids were not for us…..and that is why there are so few people doing them now.

Back when raids first came about, my guild quickly organised groups to do them. We were a large and diverse guild that had achieved a well developed guildhall and whose membership was a good range of new to older players, of varying levels of MMO experience. We soon encountered the vale guardian and worked out the strategy needed. We got a few “almost kills” and could see where the issues were (mistakes, poor communication, etc).

After a while it became clear that we needed to do some optimising. Anyone who had gear with a WvW focus was running with overly high levels of toughness, for example and certain classes, like strong healing druids or chronomancers, were notably necessary, as well as some dedicated tanks who had the skill and equipment to hold and move the vale guardian to the right spots. This immediately shook a few people loose and much of it was about gear. There were clearly people in the guild who had spare or alternative gear and there were others who had no such access….skill didn’t affect who fell in those categories, it was usually their game area of interest and how much luck they had had on drops. We lost high skill players at that point because they just didn’t meet the wealth curve to alter their equipment.

Then came the time issue and organisation. This shed a few other people, who just couldn’t afford to put in the time needed to cope with an evening of wipes and learning. There were also some people who didn’t out couldn’t use teamspeak and they went out pretty quickly too. It was soon the case that our guild could field a fairly workable raid group one or two nights a week and that was about it.

Time, attrition and slow loss of interest soon meant that our guild couldn’t do it anymore and our guild was pretty large. The elitism barriers went up fast and soon anyone wanting to learn was seen more as an obstacle. Serious raiding members of the guild spent their time outside the guild with their own kind, prizing success over the social ties that the guild had.

The upshot of it is that raiding was the last time our large, Heart of Thorns guild had a reason to chat to one another and an objective to try and achieve. Once we realised that this was beyond us, our entire guild fragmented and raid capable players broke away or were made to feel unwelcome by players who no longer felt kinship with them.

How would I have changed things? I would have made two changes. Firstly, there needed to be a much more forgiving initial raid encounter than the vale guardian was and it should have been much less of an exercise in tanking perfection. We very quickly had to force players into a strict tanking role and most of those with classes capable of doing that either had non suitable equipment or just didn’t enjoy either the pressure or the activity of it.

I would also have added a story mode, with minor or no rewards, just so people could do the raids in a “raid-lite” style. This would let them see the story, learn the mechanics and feel a part of things. As it was, the raids had a very quick roadblock barrier that far too many players were made to feel unwelcome at.

I like raids and I welcome their part in guildwars, but their implementation was a disaster and one that has dealt far too many guilds and social relationships in this game a deathblow and that damage desperately needs to be undone.

This was well written and illustrates the problem very well. Thank you.

And to the point that someone else brought up that “it may have destroyed some guilds but it brought others back,” that is exactly why a middle ground is needed in this content – why the “do it this way or GTFO” approach doesn’t really work – especially if the content is seen by many as part of the GW2 end game.

Crystal Reid.2481:

This comes up a lot so I’m going to jump in quickly since it’s a new post.

Tier systems for Raids come up a lot as a result of what Fractals did. I worked on the original Fractals team and a tiered system with increased difficulty scaling was always part of the original plan for that team. It was never a plan for Raids. They are, and should remain, the most difficult content in the game.

Accessibility in terms of difficulty is something we talk a lot about internally. We’ve made efforts to help players get in by delivering entry level encounters that ease you into the content (STK) and you’ll see more of that in the next release. You’ll still see encounters that live up to previous raid expectations for mid tier and final bosses. And if you think Matthias is a chump then we have something for you as well.

Accessibility in terms of “Hey, my 5 man Fractal group wants to try raids, but we can’t find 5 other players!” is also something we talk about. It’s just a much more difficult problem to solve.

Crystal

First and most of all – thank you for making this comment. Seeing developers interact with the community is always a welcome sght.

As to your comments about difficulty, while I do still believe the answer is a tiered system, I see a minor flaw with the entry-level fights you reference above. Those encounters should always be at the beginning of the raids, serving to stepping stone people into more difficult encounters. I will never understand why the first of these (Bandit Trio) was placed as the fifth encounter released – and soft gated behind Slothasor. Second, as someone already mentioned above, these two fights differ so significantly from the other, more interesting, fights that they don’t serve the purpose you talk about adequately anyway – they are not stepping stone or preparatory fights. That seemed poorly planned on many levels.

Again, however, the inclusion of 2 “entry level” fights out of 9 (deep within the raid) doesn’t solve the underlying issues with raids – and will, imo, only lead to a disjointed and watered down design that is less fun for everyone. The fights need to be designed for top tier raiders, but then there needs to be some kind of mechanic that opens the story and fight experience to players who are either less dedicated or who simply enjoy playing classes that significantly deviate from the current meta – because, right now, the difficulty in raids is primarily determined by which professions you bring – and the difference between bringing an ele or a scrapper (as one example out of many) for dps is EXTREMELY significant – which is bad for the game (the old school raiding mantra “bring the player, not the class” is pretty much impossible in GW2 right now).

Regardless, I am happy to see your comments, even with the push back on tiers (which I still disagree with – there is no issue that cannot be solved, even if that issue wasn’t considered during original design). Open dialogue and conversation around this topic is important.

Rising Dusk.2408:

Blaeys.3102:

Goldfox.5729:

OnizukaBR.8537:

This topic again ? Let me show you how to use the search tool on the forum.
Here you can see this same topic already beat to death, and answered/locked by the Devs:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/An-issue-raids-and-their-accesibility/page/5#post6389189
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Raid-problem-solutions/first#post6389222
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Making-tiers-in-Raids-like-fractals/page/5#post6390112

So there is nothing more to discuss and this topic should be locked.

If there’s so much debate about it then maybe it should be considered instead of locked down.

This.

It is pretty evident that this topic isn’t going away anytime soon. Even outside of the more vocal advocates like myself, it has a tendency to naturally appear in other subforums as people take a more critical look at raids and how they fit in the game.

Just because a ton of players keep asking for something (ie. Open World Dueling) doesn’t mean it should be implemented. See this post for all of the well-documented reasons why this shouldn’t be implemented.

And, reading on through that thread, there are counterpoints to every point he makes. The fact that there are many who disagree with what you link combined with the fact that many agree means there is a desire (and a need) to continue the conversation. The fact that we see these threads pop up in other subforums from new people on a semi consistent basis means it is a discussion that isn’t going away anytime soon. People will continue to readdress – many without knowledge of (nor having had the opportunity to provide feedback in) the older threads.

These topics need to be merged – and then the conversation needs to be allows to continue. That way all of the information and discussion are in one place – and people joining the conversation anew (which, based on the anecdotal evidence, will continue to happen) can more easily see everything that’s been said to date – by people with all of the differing points of view.

Goldfox.5729:

OnizukaBR.8537:

This topic again ? Let me show you how to use the search tool on the forum.
Here you can see this same topic already beat to death, and answered/locked by the Devs:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/An-issue-raids-and-their-accesibility/page/5#post6389189
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Raid-problem-solutions/first#post6389222
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Making-tiers-in-Raids-like-fractals/page/5#post6390112

So there is nothing more to discuss and this topic should be locked.

If there’s so much debate about it then maybe it should be considered instead of locked down.

This.

It is pretty evident that this topic isn’t going away anytime soon. Even outside of the more vocal advocates like myself, it has a tendency to naturally appear in other subforums as people take a more critical look at raids and how they fit in the game.

That said, I do think a moderator should merge this with the other threads on this same topic. As many have pointed out, discussion of this topic has been going on for a VERY long time. Having the bulk of that conversation in a single thread would be useful.

There is a line in the trailer that makes me think it may be more than just Primordius and Jormag -

“We must kill them all before any one grows too powerful.”

My personal theory is we will see all of the remaining dragons awaken during season 3, including Kralkatorik and Steve/Bubbles/etc – and taking them down at once will be the focus of Expansion #2 (which I think will be announced in December with a launch date mid to late next year – but that is extreme speculation).

http://massivelyop.com/2016/11/15/guild-wars-2s-next-episode-a-crack-in-the-ice-drops-november-21/

It really sounds like they are bringing the Tower of Nightmares from Season One back as a fractal next Monday.

Can’t wait to see it.

Absurdo.8309:

Blaeys.3102:

NikeEU.7690:

The gap in performance between professions – ESPECIALLY in terms of pure dps output and boon sharing – is far too wide to be healthy for the game.

I don’t think the data supports your position. The gaps between dps classws are relatively small and the differences largely situational. The only issue is that the pug community always seeks a one size fits all solution so they just “learn” ele is best and don’t bother understanding when it isnt.

Fair enough, but if it is a perception issue, then it is one that we need to fix – and that is something that leading raiding guilds can help with by posting realistic raiding guides and builds for professions like scrappers, reapers, dps mesmers, guardians, etc – and by providing tips, spreadsheets and videos that show that these professions/playstyles do not drop the dps of the raid squad significantly when they replace the current go to professions (ele, warrior, daredevil).

Why should they do anything if they are going to be attacked by posts like this? You could also make these spreadsheets and guides.

Absolutely nothing in that response was meant to be an attack. Calm down – focus on the conversation – and once stop trying to make every post into a personal attack. It is unproductive and only derails conversations.

Back on topic -

I do still believe there is a problem with the performance gap between the top and bottom performers right now. When I see groups with certain professions in the game right now, they tend to fail at the fights much more than those with the top performing ones.

At the same time, I am willing to admit my perception may be flawed. If players out there can provide the evidence and support that these professions/playstyles are indeed worth bringing (for average starting out raiders – not talking about speed running or other things that raiders can do after they’ve downed it 1000 times)- that the gap between them and the popular metabuilds are indeed close enough that this is a non-issue – then I welcome those posts and feedback. They would – definitely – make this entire conversation a non-issue.

So please, if you (anyone) can provide that kind of data and community support, do so. Prove threads like this one wrong and help make raids a friendlier and more inclusive place. I would love to see that happen.

NikeEU.7690:

[Quote]

The gap in performance between professions – ESPECIALLY in terms of pure dps output and boon sharing – is far too wide to be healthy for the game.

I don’t think the data supports your position. The gaps between dps classws are relatively small and the differences largely situational. The only issue is that the pug community always seeks a one size fits all solution so they just “learn” ele is best and don’t bother understanding when it isnt.

[/quote]

Fair enough, but if it is a perception issue, then it is one that we need to fix – and that is something that leading raiding guilds can help with by posting realistic raiding guides and builds for professions like scrappers, reapers, dps mesmers, guardians, etc – and by providing tips, spreadsheets and videos that show that these professions/playstyles do not drop the dps of the raid squad significantly when they replace the current go to professions (ele, warrior, daredevil).

cranos.5913:

Obtena.7952:

Well, I guess the guy complaining about how hard it is to complete raids with the new changes is wrong then. If it’s not harder to complete raids, then there isn’t really a problem here. I’m glad we can agree that this thread is really unnecessary complaining.

I mean, if after all this, your response is “nothing changed” then my response is “then nothing to complain about”. Anet spent their time, put in some changes they wanted and if the result is zero sum effect on raids, then all this complaining is for nothing …

Now, I’m pretty sure you’re going to come back and change up your tune a little bit because certainly, anyone can see that this does affect the way people think about how they do raids and make the comps … YES? So perhaps glib answers aren’t so good if you are being honest about including yourself in a discussion?

Furthermore, as I’ve already illustrated, Inclusivity is not restricted by optimal comps because raids can be completed with non-optimal comps. So, no, that association is nonsense.

The point people have been making for 9 pages now is this:

Before changes: More classes are optimal, more comps (5-5, 4-4-2, 5-4-2, 7-2-1) are used without any big significant differences.

After changes: Less classes are optimal and if you use anything else aside from the 5-5 comp you see a significant change in performance.

Now whether you care about optimal or not is entirely your opnion and if you wanna believe it’s unnecessary complaining then so be it. But there’s no need to play ignorant. You know what changed and there’s no need to dismiss that.

I agree with every word you say here, but I would add another point. Optimal composition is less of an issue for me than diversity of playstyle. Fewer fun ways of building characters and beating bosses means content grows stale faster and fewer people care to even try it.

Again, I think most of us realize true profession balance is absolutely impossible without making everything play the exact same (which should never happen). Disparity between builds/professions isn’t something they can fix nor should they even try. The problem is when that disparity is so massive that it makes playing certain professions significantly reduce a groups chances – which is where the game mode is now.

The gap in performance between professions – ESPECIALLY in terms of pure dps output and boon sharing – is far too wide to be healthy for the game.

Josh Davis.6015:

Would you want to see any changes to Courtyard before it came back? A new mechanic, perhaps?

Back when HOT was launching, you talked about an instanced PvP arena for guild halls that would provide greater room and functionality compared to the one we have now.

As you bring back Courtyard, consider using it for that purpose – and, if possible, let guilds place obstacles, traps, etc in a guild version.

I know it’s probably not the feedback expected, but some of haven’t forgotten the discussion about guild pvp arenas from HOT launch – and this seems like the perfect way to use Courtyard – giving it a place in the game without compromising PVP tournaments/competitive play.

Zero.

Even played all three beta weekends prior to launch on the server I’m on now.

1. Lack of ongoing support for guild missions.

2. Severe imbalances between professions in PVE (difference in the value of top performing professions/builds vs those at the bottom).

Still a very fun game though. Don’t really have a ton of issues.

First of all – to Anet – thank you so much for the amazing Halloween decorations for the guild hall. They added a lot to the holiday and my guild had a lot of fun decorating and generally goofing off in the hall.

That said, as Wintersday looms, I have a couple of little reminders -

We have trees, wreaths, ice sculptures and snow piles (including ones that actually snow).

Now, we just need snowmen and light strings (and maybe some present boxes ).

It’s still a little too early to “deck the halls,” but I wanted to get this out there now as a gentle reminder.

Lendruil.9061:

Just give us finally combo-field priority and suddenly those people who actually understand their classes will still be able to maintain perma might.

I definitely agree with this. The way combo fields work and are prioritized could use looking at – and this is one that that transcends raids.

I think were getting a little off topic.

Of course raids aren’t the reason for the reduced revenue reporting. The game’s age, perceived content drought, pressure from other games, perceived lack of innovation, etc – all of these and a lot more that we don’t known (and will never know) are the likely culprits for that. And, for all we know, those numbers might be right in line with NCSoft’s internal projections. It literally could be a non issue for them.

This thread isn’t about whether or not raids are good or bad – or whether or not they caused 100 puppies to join a vegan cult. It should be about what we think needs to be changed (or shouldn’t be changed, if that is your opinion) and how we see that change. potentially taking place.

DutchRiders.2871:

Blaeys.3102:

Joxer.6024:

Blaeys.3102:

With their current raid model, it will always be about a handful of professions (currently Mesmer, warrior, ele, druid, sometimes necros), to the detriment of all others. It is just the nature of a limited raiding model.

To which I blame the “meta” for, as that’s what most look at for raid comp. Lose that and bring in people that can do the job needed in spite of class and we have a win.

That’s very true, but – unfortunately – there is no way to lose it in the current model.

When developers balance an entire game mode almost exclusively around the meta, this is the situation that results – where math, rather than flavor, fun and build diversity, rule the day.

In the current model, raiding will (realistically) always cater to a tiny number of professions and builds. There is just no way around that without either completely destroying build diversity or nerfing the content to the point that the meta builds actually make it too easy.

It’s a broken system imo, and needs to be rethought.

I play ele/mesmer/ranger. These are the viable builds I can play in raids and in certain boss fights help the party alot more than the regular set ups. Now for some classes its worse and balance could definitely be better. However stating diversity is dead is not true judging from these builds:

- dps staff ele
- fresh air staff ele
- d/w fresh air
- d/f fresh air
- staff healer
- d/f auramancer
- minstrel staff tank

For mesmer:

-condi mesmer
- dps chrono
- tank chrono
- healer chrono
- minstrel chrono tank

For ranger:

-condi ranger
- Power druid
- condi druid
- healer druid
- tank healer

I do think the title of this thread is extremist, misleading and fatalistic. Diversity isn’t dead, but it is something that needs attention right now. The differences between the top performing and the bottom performing playstyles is far wider than it should be or needs to be, imo.

maddoctor.2738:

AndyS.5630:

No need to give unique buffs to more professions, they shouldn’t have been in the game in the first place.

I agree but the problem is something must be done with existing skills that provide such unique buffs. Warrior Banners, Ranger Spirits and so on. Do we remove all those skills? Wouldn’t that also hurt diversity? If we change them to non-stacking boons then there might be another problem right there.

There is a choice between reducing the amount of unique buffs, or adding more similar unique buffs to other professions, both are acceptable solutions to me, and both can help with diversity. The first would require messing up with existing skills, the second can be added through their next elite specializations without upsetting the current skills. That’s why I prefer the second option, but the first option can be great too.

I think this is the discussion we should be focusing on. Boons and boon sharing is probably the area easiest to fix.

For me, the other side of the coin is pure damage potential. Which profession/weapon combos are currently not performing up to standards, and – in those cases – do the boons/support they provide justify the lesser dps. As a few examples to consider – staff Mesmer, rifle engineer, sword revenant, staff necro, mace warrior. And would bringing their ability damage up to the point of other professions fix this issue.

Of course, this raises what I feel is still one of the biggest issues here – they absolutely HAVE TO split profession balance between PVE, PVP and WVW. With the introduction of raids, where these numbers actually matter in PVE, I think that is a must if we hope to ever resolve anything.

I think there are few things they can do early on to help fix some of the issues I raise and would be interested in what others think -

1. Balance has to be split between PVE, WVW and PVP.
2. In raids, boons need a 10-player cap
3. Once #1 has been done, they need to look at the professions/builds not in the current meta. Will simple dps increases or changes to how boons are shared make them more valuable in raids – to the point where choosing between a warrior or an engineer for direct damage is really more about the player playing than the profession they are on.
4. Of course, keep a close eye on power creep to ensure things don’t get out of hand.

Those, I think, are the bare minimum changes needed. They wont solve all of my concerns, but they would be a start.

Additionally, whether you agree with me about the story point or not, I think the writers and developers need to be ultra sensitive about the story they tell in future raids – always keeping in mind that raids aren’t meant for the masses.

As for non raid content, I think they should look at fixing the sloth in Bloodstone Fen to start. Don’t make it super powerful, but at least give it a mechanic or two from the raid (a poison shake that we can interrupt for instance). And, in the future, keep in mind that reproducing a raid boss is more than just copying a creature’s model into the open world.

As for the fractured playerbase issue, that one is on us more than the developers – and I would love to hear suggestions that don’t involve “learn to play”, “It will always be this way”, “well if the other side did XYZ, it wouldn’t be a problem”, etc. What can we (as the playerbase) do to do better.

Hopefully this clarifies some areas where there is some value in continued player feedback.

This is not meant to be a rehash of old arguments. The point is to talk about the good and bad of raiding as players see them.

That is why I put a lot of thought into making the original post, which you will notice purposefully stays away from the topic of the closed threads.

Having an open discussion about what we find lacking or in need of fixing in raids is a productive use of the forums. And – as a few have said – when people feel strongly about something, they will find a way to keep the dialogue and conversation going (in fact, it is important they do so).

I do think there have been some decent points raised in this thread that we can discuss in greater detail. TexZero talked about balance being a top-down process, which I can see clearly. Now, how can we do that in a system where we have 9 professions, countless builds and a few mission critical tasks in raids. Another poster talked about the Wildstar model, where every profession is given one UNIQUE thing that they bring to raids – something that, on its own might seem absolutely critical to success.

How can we do that in GW2? Is there merit behind this idea of giving every profession one unique thing? Given that GW2 has more professions/builds than most raiding games, would it make sense to explore the idea of 25 man instead of 10 man raids? And, would that solve the underlying problem?

These are just a few of the directions this discussion can take. Stop looking at it as an argument with sides butting heads and start looking at it as people wanting to have a say in how raids evolve in the game. And, if you disagree with them, offer your own outlook and vision.

This could be an extremely positive conversation if we all took a step back and put in the effort.

IonoI.3956:

So do you think they should stop making raids or is there a way to make hard team content without causing these problems?

Seems like it either has to be easy enough for every build to work, which gets boring(open world)
Or there has to be hard endgame stuff that naturally create strict meta and trinity

Maybe there is another option which requires amazing balance, class design, and content design. But I think Anet is doing pretty well there so far.

Maybe the hardest content in the game should not be something where you organize teams based on builds. So if you have a bad build then only you suffer. aka make open world harder.

I definitely don’t believe the answer is to stop making raids. And I even agree that the fights and encounters in the raids are interesting and fun. I just think there are issues that need to be kept in mind as raids are developed – such as profession and build diversity.

When it comes to that part of the GW2 experience, raids are not in a good place. The meta is too focused on a tiny number of professions and builds – and, whether people want to admit it or not, the meta is pretty much what raiding is all about now, especially for pugs.

The last thing I want to see is design decisions focused on that meta – or the pure math of raiding – destroy or even diminish the complexity and variety in this game, which could very easily happen. At the same time, I think something needs to change to bring more variety and options into raiding. I admit I don’t have a good solution to the issue – which is exactly why I think that it is worth discussing.

Fluffy.1932:

You did have some great points, but I think that when evaluating how healthy raids are for the game, there is a lot more to it. Raids have kept a very dedicated population interested, which has led to some very ingenious theorycrafting and some amazing builds that push the limits of what is possible. They have led to detailed build guides and strategies that are available to people who don’t want to craft their own builds. They have invigorated a number of in game communities with a fun activity to rally behind.

I think you are 100% correct in this assessment and I am very glad you brought it up. Alongside the (imo) bad, raiding has brought a lot of good to the game as well. It’s important to discuss what is working as much as what may not be.

Rising Dusk.2408:

I disagree with a lot of points in the OP, but that’s fine.

• In my opinion, raids have been nothing but positive for the game. A number of people in my guild, for instance, actually log in more than 5 minutes a week now because raids are their favorite in-game content. ANet should consider raids a great success.
• ANet should never make open world content hard. Look at HoT’s marginally medium difficulty maps and the level of complaints they engendered. Open world content and story content should always be easy.
• ANet’s current tangential story approach to raids is great, and I hope they continue it going forward.
• Complaints about the “meta” are crazy in my opinion; I have beaten every single raid boss with non-meta builds and non-meta compositions in every single patch context since they’ve come out. If you’re worried about pub groups, there is literally nothing ANet could do to get rid of the idea of a “meta” from the way players play games.

Warcry.1596:

Personally I find the issue of what the challenge is. Fractals does it better, where the mechanics are harder and more punishing than just a DPS race under a timer. That’s just my thoughts and really hope they take it into consideration for future raid content.

I yolo fractals daily and it’s a snoozefest because of how easy it is. Raids actually maintain my attention because single mistakes can kill teams. They are already heading in the right direction with the changes to Swampland by making the content more raid-like and actually providing an introduction to the complexity of raid mechanics in a dialed back context.

I agree with a lot of what you say – and, despite the inherent negative tone in my original post, I do believe there have been some positive aspects to the introduction of raiding.

The biggest, by far, is that raiding has reinvigorated a portion of the playerbase – and probably even brought some new people into the game. I see that as clearly as I see the issues I raise above.

As far as the meta is concerned, you are right that every profession can beat every raid boss currently in the game – on multiple builds. I don’t think anyone that has actually raided believes differently. The problem is, for the average player or new raider, choosing to play off meta will almost always prove to be a major handicap – partly because of the disparity between the top and bottom professions in terms of performance/utility and partly because of the general attitude of the game’s population (especially pugs). Yes, we can make the statement that raids are possible on on classes, but the reality in game isn’t quite that black or white.

As far as open world difficulty, as I said above, I may have used the wrong language. There is definitely a limit to how challenging open world can be – I should have said “interesting.” Unfortunately, their attempts to reproduce raid bosses in the open world (most notably the sloth) resulted in an extremely boring encounter with almost no mechanics whatsoever (I will never understand why they didn’t at least try to bring some of the mechanics to the raid fight out with that sloth).

Thanks for calling me out on those points and continuing the discussion.

maddoctor.2738:

Although removing the 5 person cap would open up some diversity it might also create another problem: 1 Mesmer, 1 Warrior, 1 Ranger, 7 Elementalists or something similar. That is, get all damage buffs and fill the rest of the spots with the highest dps possible.

Before any removal of the cap can happen we need to allow more builds to offer similar buffs that do not stack. Adding damage modifiers that stack is part of the reason we are having this problem in the first place, and instead of fixing this, they added so many new damage modifiers in the game, like Druid GotL and glyph, Mesmer Alacrity. Reduce modifiers or give them to more builds is the way to go.

As for making professions look the same: this is unavoidable in many ways but if 2 professions are good at one thing, another 2 are good at another thing and so on, it won’t be a problem. I’m not saying to make all professions good on all roles.

Except it is not unavoidable. The game existed for 3+ years without the need to make this kind of compromise to profession design.

I want the developers creating professions and specializations around what is fun to play – and what makes practical sense (or as much as you can in a fantasy setting) for those professions (is that something we would actually expect an engineer to be able to do?). Once they stop doing that, the game loses something, imo.

Now, to be realistic, there is obviously a middle ground here. There is some room to do this. However, I think the developers have to tread lightly. If the litmus test in PVE suddenly becomes “let’s do it because of raids” and nothing more, they have gone too far.

CptAurellian.9537:

…

For that, we’d need to give all unique buffs to at least two classes. For example, give revs something that is equivalent to (and mutually exclusive with) warrior banners and suddenly you have the choice which class to take. Give eles something comparable to GotL/spotter on their heal skills and tempest healers are a thing. And so on.

While I agree in spirit – and we should definitely strive to make sure more professions and builds have a realistic place in raids – how do you do this without starting to make every profession feel the same?

I do agree that a 10 person cap on boons in raids is a must have to start, but beyond that, it’s hard to come up with anything that doesn’t start the class watering down cycle we’ve seen in so many other games.

TexZero.7910:

Disagree.

Just going to point out why this is wrong in as short a post as i can.

1) Open world is for everyone… This by its very nature contradicts your own goal of having it be challenging.

2) Story…. Wow is this ever off the mark. The start of “season 3” actually happened long before this in the OOW storyline to save Demi Beetlestone from her own fathers attempted assassination plot. It’s furthered in season 2 and the raid doesn’t in any way give you more or less info as it is a self contained side story.

3) Balancing has and will always be a top down approach. This isn’t because of some voodoo it’s because you always want to trim down the power while showing some love to some of the middle of the table skills so that the relative power of each becomes roughly even.

4) The only thing fracturing the players are those that feel the forums need to have the same horse beat to death, or actively go out of there way not to be team players. Frankly put there’s still plenty of content for them to enjoy if that’s their preferred playstyle.

Now then, is there a problem with Raids ? In my own opinion, no. There is however a problem with community tools and guilds still. I’m still adamant that adding a proper training mode (not easy, not rewards based) but strictly training is need. Additionally, finding a guild needs to be more fluid than check the forums or go to the guilds 3rd party site or read their map chat spam.

Fixing those will move players to where they want to be to do the content they desire to do, with people who are of the same playstyle/timezone/mindset they are and will completely shut down the outcry of but im a solo player and LFG never picks me because Q reason.

Thank you for disagreeing and debating in a level headed manner. You bring up some really good points, some of which I definitely agree with.

You are right that there is no secret science to the balance issue – it is something inherent in any MMO where this kind of content exists. I would counter by saying that I think Arenanet has done a better job of bringing variety between professions into the game while still keeping them playable and even competitive throughout the game. However, part of how they did that (for the first 3 years) was by taking it into account during content development as much as profession/build development.

Raids are really the first step – in PVE anyway – away from that approach, and while I believe implementing challenging content is important, I do not believe that it has to mirror what other games have done. The mechanics and systems exist in this game to implement gameplay that works differently – that truly (and realistically, keeping all things, including the community, in mind) offers the raiding experience to a wider array of playstyles. In fact, I think it is critical to the game mode’s long term success.

I respect that you disagree, and again, definitely respect that you do so in a civil manner.

Another Thought -

I think a decent subpoint for discussion is how they can better achieve that balance without watering down the different professions. For example:

- boon sharing between 10 players. While this doesn’t solve everything, it would lessen the demand for doubling up on professions like chronos and warriors.

There are a lot of aspects to this conversation – to how we can make raids more appealing and less frustrating for players.

I also think a lot of people would be very interested in how you would see the training mode working. I know I would.

Finally, to the point of challenge in open world. Yes, there is a cap on how challenging it can be (although I stand by my comments that they are currently too easy) – but, regardless, the mechanics need to at least be INTERESTING (which the sloth in Ember Bay definitely is not).

I know it will never happen for a ton of reasons, but I want a little dragon to appear in Sparkfly and yell “there’s something in the water” just as a giant quaggan pops out of the ocean and fights us.

(continued from above)

Broken storylines
Another big issue with the current raiding model is the inevitable fragmentation of the storyline – and disenfranchising of lore/story focused players. I know a lot of raiders disagree, but – for me – the first raid was the introduction of the story in Season Three – and definitely our primary encounter with the new antagonists.

There are a lot of people who love this game primarily for the story experience. Making it difficult to experience that story inevitably leads to disenfranchised players.

And, even worse, I do not see it getting better in the future. I really don’t know how they can use the current raid model to tell part of the Tyrian story without excluding many people who actually enjoy the story. I realize some devs tried to justify it by saying “you can go into a cleared instance,” or by adding the story as text descriptions to an NPC, but both of these ignore a simple truth – we do not want to be told the story, we want to experience the story (we are playing a video game, not reading a book or watching a movie).

Watering down non-raid content
This one is a little more subtle, but is still an issue. By calling raids “challenging” it seems as if they are giving themselves permission to forgo adding any challenge to the rest of the open world game. Even the so called open world raid bosses – the unbound guardian and sloth in Ember Bay – are jokes. The sloth especially is a pale shadow of its raid counterpart – with ZERO mechanics other than a timer (in the form of the slublings it eats). It just moves in a circle and takes damage. To say that they are giving players a taste of raiding in that fight is beyond insulting. The same is true of the lackluster fights in the living story steps they have given us so far (the latest was just a zerg of mobs similar to most open world events).

Just as bad – and probably one of the absolute worst things that came from raiding – is that Arenanet has completely abandoned other PVE group content above 5 players. A recent thread on Reddit showed us that there are zero plans for new guild missions in the foreseeable future. Given the popularity of missions when they first came out (much more than raids, imo), that is unforgivable.

Fracturing the playerbase
Yes, raids are controversial. They split the pve community into groups – one of which looks down on anything other than raiding as “kiddie content” and the other that is envious of the experience (fight mechanics, story, etc) of raids. Yes, they could partake in that content as easily as any raider, but in the current model, that means potentially compromising and changing the things they love most about their characters and how they play (they petty much have to subscribe to the Stepford Wife program in order to keep raids from being frustrating and un-fun). When your primary source of joy in the game comes from making your character unique and your own (or at least achieving the illusion of such), asking players to give that up is a really big deal.

As recently as two weeks ago, I saw this fracturing – the ill feeling between divergent groups – devastate a sister guild’s raid group. While the guild (which has more than 400 members and been around since almost the beginning of GW1, btw) remains strong, it will feel the ill will and discord from that implosion for a really long time.

How to fix it
There are topics that Arenanet has indicated they feel have run their course on the forums, and I will respect that here. All I will say is look to the raiding CDI with Chris Whitesides that started 2 years ago (https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/cdi/CDI-Guilds-Raiding/first). I think the solutions are there – proposed by active players of the game.

Unfortunately, imo, Anet went into that discussion having already decided what raids in GW2 would look like. They wanted validation more than discussion. Despite that, there are a lot of great ideas in that thread (and many since then) that would make sense in the game – that would address these issues – and that I for one would love to see discussed in more detail.

Please respect each others’ opinions and need for open conversation
I realize this was a long rant – and some will dismiss it out of hand as unnecessary or stupid, but it is something that I do care a lot about (obviously). It is something that we need to make sure developers and other players alike are aware of and can weigh in on – for as long as it is an issue to people in the game.

Long post incoming. Ive spent the weekend thinking about this and most of this morning arranging those ideas and thoughts into this post. I know there will be people out there who hate and disagree with every word, but I believe these things need to be said. I would also welcome ongoing dialogue about these topics. For many of us, raids are not in a good place and changes are needed.

As of this week, raiding has been in GW2 for approximately one year. Nothing has created more ill will and division in the game more than raids. Recent forum activity is the best evidence of that.

Where the issue started
I think we need to take a realistic look at how raiding is implemented in this game, the good and the bad, and then – hopefully – inspire some real and productive discussion about how they can better fit into the current game without their current negative baggage.

The problem, imo, started with marketing. Part of the goal with Heart of Thorns was obviously to bring new players into Guild Wars 2. They should be commended for that goal, but I think their efforts were a little too shortsighted. To bring new players into the game, they needed to promote the game as something it wasn’t – challenging. In order to use the words challenging and hardcore in press material and advertising, they decided to implement raids. The word raid itself evoked visions of hardcore experiences from other games – players who had bled fighting Yogg Saron or Ragnaros in WoW would see it as something new in the game.

Adding raids was a good idea in theory, but I don’t think the developers ever looked past the marketing appeal to consider what raids would do to the game – or to consider anything other than the tired raid model used by EVERY OTHER MMO out there. Bringing in new players is good – but not when it changes fundamental philosophies that long-term existing players have come to count on. In trying to expand their market appeal, they forgot their base. Theory was good, implementation was severely lacking.

Playstyle diversity and the road to boring play
Probably the biggest impact the current raiding model is having on the game is what I call the Stepford Wife syndrome. Balancing an entire game mode around the top end performing professions inevitably leads to the majority of players playing – and even eventually looking (because of Legendary Armor) – the same. Right now, you either play to the meta or you have to struggle horrendously to even find a group to raid with.

My biggest worry now is that, to fix that, Anet will make the problem even worse. The only real way – in the current model – they can ensure every profession has an equal place is to make them all equal. Give more professions access to alacrity, might stacking, comparable dps/utility balance, etc. The problem with that approach is that the end result is rangers who play like necromancers and engineers who play like elementalists – there would be no unique feel to the professions any longer. That would be a major blow to the game.

(continued below)

Malediktus.3740:

Blaeys.3102:

Legendary should denote mastering the game at the highest level in all aspects – including PVE, PVP, WvW, Raids, Fractals – even stuff like jumping puzzles. Creating a legendary should involve reaching the pinnacle in all of these game modes. Otherwise, what’s the point?

Tying it exclusively to raids was a mistake.

You are contradicting yourself. First of you only need to raid for the 150 insights and the collection. The rest is the usual PVE grind (tokens, t6 mats, clovers etc) any legendary consists of.
Second you say it should involve reaching the pinnacle of the game modes. Raiding is currently by far the most difficult, measureable goal, the game has to offer.

Fractals are a joke, lvl 100 is easier than 50 pre HoT. Open world is a joke. WvW is mainly dead karma train and zergs trading kills. PvP has a tiny competitive playerbase, so you most of the time you just meet achievement hunters or reward track farmers.

Here’s the problem with that thinking. Raids aren’t any more difficult than getting to 100 in fractals or mastering the ranks of pvp. Being successful in raids comes down to copying builds off of a website and being lucky/diligent enough to find a group that wants to grind out raids week in and week out.

They are about math, luck and being willing to stepford wife your build and playstyle to the point where everyone in the game will eventually be the exact same (from playstyle and builds all the way through to how we all look with the introduction of a single set of legendary armor).

I know that sounds harsh and a little jaded, but it is the reality of what raids are in GW2 (and that is in no way meant to demean raiders – its Anet’s approach to raid design that is the issue).

So, with that in mind, I say legendary armor (even weapons imo) should reflect a dedication to the entire game, not just to grinding the math and “everyone be a clone now” gamestyle that is raids in GW2.

Rednik.3809:

TexZero.7910:

It’s actually why a one difficulty mode works. It makes balancing infinitely easier as there’s not 256k variables to work through to point to as the source of the problem.

But that’s neither here nor there, and you really should stop pushing the easy mode agenda.

Saying that balance must be done around one fragment of one game mode with only small minority of overall players playing it – is very funny indeed.
How about being sane developers and doing other way around?

Unfortunately, you can’t have a challenging raiding experience without balancing around the numbers associated with those professions/builds/stats that perform the best, especially when you choose to include enrage timers as part of that experience.

The result is a system where a small subset of professions and builds will always be at the top, especially in a game like GW2 that put such a heavy emphasis on freedom of choice and making the professions feel unique from one another for the first 3+ years.

ArenaNet has created a catch-22 situation. To achieve more diversity and realistic choices for raiders in challenging content, they must either water down the diversity to the point where all professions play pretty much the same or water down the challenge to the point where those playing the top end professions no longer have a real challenge.

This is something they should have foreseen from the beginning – in fact, it is something people were concerned about and brought up in the original raiding focused CDI with Chris Whitesides 2 years ago.

TexZero.7910:

Blaeys.3102:

Joxer.6024:

Blaeys.3102:

With their current raid model, it will always be about a handful of professions (currently Mesmer, warrior, ele, druid, sometimes necros), to the detriment of all others. It is just the nature of a limited raiding model.

To which I blame the “meta” for, as that’s what most look at for raid comp. Lose that and bring in people that can do the job needed in spite of class and we have a win.

That’s very true, but – unfortunately – there is no way to lose it in the current model.

When developers balance an entire game mode almost exclusively around the meta, this is the situation that results – where math, rather than flavor, fun and build diversity, rule the day.

In the current model, raiding will (realistically) always cater to a tiny number of professions and builds. There is just no way around that without either completely destroying build diversity or nerfing the content to the point that the meta builds actually make it too easy.

It’s a broken system imo, and needs to be rethought.

Except the content isn’t designed around a meta. A meta forms around the content and shifts based on changes to the encounter or builds being nerfed/buffed.

This is why no matter what you do there will always be a meta. Something will always be superior in one aspect and that aspect is what cause them to feel like they are relied on where others are neglected.

Which is exactly why a “one size fits all model” attitude toward raid design will never work.

Joxer.6024:

Blaeys.3102:

With their current raid model, it will always be about a handful of professions (currently Mesmer, warrior, ele, druid, sometimes necros), to the detriment of all others. It is just the nature of a limited raiding model.

To which I blame the “meta” for, as that’s what most look at for raid comp. Lose that and bring in people that can do the job needed in spite of class and we have a win.

That’s very true, but – unfortunately – there is no way to lose it in the current model.

When developers balance an entire game mode almost exclusively around the meta, this is the situation that results – where math, rather than flavor, fun and build diversity, rule the day.

In the current model, raiding will (realistically) always cater to a tiny number of professions and builds. There is just no way around that without either completely destroying build diversity or nerfing the content to the point that the meta builds actually make it too easy.

It’s a broken system imo, and needs to be rethought.

Absurdo.8309:

Blaeys.3102:

Absurdo.8309:

Blaeys.3102:

It will always be almost impossible for them to achieve any semblance of balance between the professions given the complexity of builds, the boon system and group composition factors in this game. The only way they could do it would involve watering down every profession to the point that they all feel the same to play – something none of us really want.

With their current raid model, it will always be about a handful of professions (currently Mesmer, warrior, ele, druid, sometimes necros), to the detriment of all others. It is just the nature of a limited raiding model.

It is a bad system – with no real solution – that only adds negativity to the game, while also turning almost every player who doesn’t want to be left out of raiding into carbon copies of builds they find online.

I’ll just note that pvp and wvw are like this too. And, unlike raids, they actually balance with an eye towards those game modes.

Yes, metas and preferred professions exist in both of those game modes as well.

The difference is that suboptimal meta builds in WvW don’t matter as much because that game mode is more about macro-strategy (where and when you take objectives and positioning to ensure a numeric advantage over the enemy when possible). In PvP, balance is still an issue, but Anet offset that by giving people a rewarding experience (literally and figurately) even if they fail or cannot move past the lower brackets. Neither of those things can be said of raids.

Err … you can say this about raids too. Sub-optimal builds and comps beat raid bosses all the time. I’ll give you that you don’t get much for failure though. (You don’t get anything for failure in wvw ether though).

Heck, some posters in this thread think this discussion is a non-issue because any composition can beat raids.

Personally though, I think anet can rethink raid balance, as, barring engineers, it was in a pretty good place pre-patch. And I think engis can be brought back in if they unnerf slick shoes.

In a perfect world, you would be right. The reality in game is much different – at least from what I see (of course, your perspective may be different).

And, as a clarification, wvw is pretty much always rewarding because of reward tracks (great change), but that isn’t something that can be readily translated to raiding.

Absurdo.8309:

Blaeys.3102:

It will always be almost impossible for them to achieve any semblance of balance between the professions given the complexity of builds, the boon system and group composition factors in this game. The only way they could do it would involve watering down every profession to the point that they all feel the same to play – something none of us really want.

With their current raid model, it will always be about a handful of professions (currently Mesmer, warrior, ele, druid, sometimes necros), to the detriment of all others. It is just the nature of a limited raiding model.

It is a bad system – with no real solution – that only adds negativity to the game, while also turning almost every player who doesn’t want to be left out of raiding into carbon copies of builds they find online.

I’ll just note that pvp and wvw are like this too. And, unlike raids, they actually balance with an eye towards those game modes.

Yes, metas and preferred professions exist in both of those game modes as well.

The difference is that suboptimal meta builds in WvW don’t matter as much because that game mode is more about macro-strategy (where and when you take objectives and positioning to ensure a numeric advantage over the enemy when possible). In PvP, balance is still an issue, but Anet offset that by giving people a rewarding experience (literally and figurately) even if they fail or cannot move past the lower brackets. Neither of those things can be said of raids.

The hard truth remains – because of the SEVERE disparity between top end builds/professions and suboptimal builds/professions – coupled with the general community’s disdain for anything too far removed from the accepted meta, there is almost no decent raiding experience for scrapper engineers, burn guardians, revenants of any kind, longbow rangers, or several dozen other playstyles that people actually enjoy.

It will always be almost impossible for them to achieve any semblance of balance between the professions given the complexity of builds, the boon system and group composition factors in this game. The only way they could do it would involve watering down every profession to the point that they all feel the same to play – something none of us really want.

With their current raid model, it will always be about a handful of professions (currently Mesmer, warrior, ele, druid, sometimes necros), to the detriment of all others. It is just the nature of a limited raiding model.

It is a bad system – with no real solution – that only adds negativity to the game, while also turning almost every player who doesn’t want to be left out of raiding into carbon copies of builds they find online.

StrYdeR.2459:

I agree with this logic, but it could also be taken a step further.
Some LS events were designed to be performed by an entire map of players – and the scope would need to be scaled for smaller guilds.

Living Story 1 was (IMHO) the best written and executed LS to date – allow newer players to experience it through instanced iterations … much like the instancing that occurs in the Mad King Labyrinth at present. Create portal doors that allow players to enter the instance, and the larger LS1 boss fights could be scheduled much like DS or any of the other world bosses currently are.

Scalable events could be injected into or transformed into Guild Missions.

The player base is becoming fragmented; more so every day with the launch of newer zones (Bloodstone Fen is a prime example of a zone that has very little replay-ability interest to players other than the daily farm run that may occur). Players have moved to Ember Bay as the rewards / returns are perceived as better for the time invested. Will this trend move on though when a new zone is released with future episodes (only time will answer that question).

Please keep players engaged Anet

Agree 100% with every word of this. I think this would be natural evolution of the mission/guild flag system I outline in the OP.

The biggest barrier to doing some of the more complex events from days past is motivating people to organize groups/events. The guild mission system seems perfect for providing that motivation (the benefits of which are then reaped by the larger game population).

Once that piece of the puzzle is in place, not only can they revisit content like LW season one (which I also LOVED, btw), but they can also look at making some of the more mundane older events a teensy bit more involved/interesting.

Hypairion.9210:

Use your own advice..you own posts add nothing to the subject since a long time, you’re just saying over and over the same thing, without new idea. So please restrain yourself for posting if you have nothing more to add.

I think that is a fair request -

so let’s all agree to stop with the back and forth about keeping the thread open or closing it and get back to the topic at hand.

A few posts ago, I talked about several ways Anet could incorporate multiple tiers into the raiding model. One of those was a simple “story mote” similar to the challenge motes we see in living story steps.

If all that mote did was reduce the math of an encounter – lowering health, damage, etc – while also lowering reward (a critical piece), that would be enough to make the raids more accessible to a greater range of players.

Because, let’s be real for a second – true balance in PVE is a pipe dream. The professions in this game are just too complex. The only way every profession becomes equally viable would be to oversimplify them all – something none of us want. At the same time, that hammer scrapper or d/d thief or scepter guardian should have a way to enjoy raids without having to completely compromise how they play (enjoy) the game. Waiting for PVE balance to make all of these professions feel usable is not a real option (they may be viable – but in reality, they will always reduce a groups chances of success).

The answer has to come from the content development side – and I, for one, don’t want the challenge nerfed to accommodate those classes. That leaves multiple difficulty tiers as the ONLY answer.

Now, I know people disagree with that. Let’s talk about why we disagree – even if it feels a little repetitive based on past conversations. It is still a concern for people (me included). If you don’t want to have that conversation, that’s also fine – you don’t have to (but saying others cannot/should not have the discussion really isn’t a solution).

Guild missions are severely underutilized by the developers. It’s been almost 4 years since we have seen any new ones.

The same can be said of many story chains and dynamic events throughout the game. Usually, they are only done when someone leveling happens by them. As a general rule, time isn’t good to old content in this game.

There is an obvious answer here. They could use guild missions to revitalize older content and keep it relevant. That includes everything from the push-pull centaur events in Kessex Hills to the assault on the gates of Arah in Cursed Shore through to the new events in Bloodstone Fen and Ember Bay.

This would work fairly simple. We have guild event flags that currently only work on three events – Tequatl, Triple Trouble and Karka Queen. Make those easier for guilds to build and then make them usable on many of these “story chain” events throughout the game. For example, let us start the Jade Construct/Unbound Guardian event in BF with a guild flag.

Once they’ve done that, they could then add a new category of guild missions – open world – and populate it with these events. On any given week, a guild’s missions might then include Shatterer or defending soldiers in Gendarren Fields or taking the gates of the Flame Citadel (or DOZENs of other things). And, if guilds get there and the event isn’t naturally occurring, they can use the guild interface (or the flags above) to start it.

The idea could eventually even be taken a step further – bringing things like the Marionette, the Scarlett metalbeast invasion or even the Ancient Karka (this one shortened, of course) back to the game. In fact, this could be a way to bring back just about all of Season One without disrupting the current game in any way.

By keeping the events in the open world, they would also achieve two goals – there would be no issues for smaller guilds (who could simply use LFG if needed on events like Jormag), and it would establish some semblance of organization at events throughout the game (because guilds would be leading the charge).

I know there would probably be some significant design challenges I don’t see, but this seems like a simple way to both keep guild missions alive/interesting and inject some energy into the maps that the story may be leaving behind (Bloodstone Fen is the obvious example, but it could also be said of any of the vanilla zones).

Just a thought.

We need to get the conversation back on track and stop with the continual efforts focused solely on closing it down.

There are several very good reasons this thread should remain open and this conversation should continue:

This is a reoccurring theme that will not go away
We see new threads started – across multiple forums – on this topic on a pretty consistent basis (by different people just about every time). That isn’t going to stop. Rather than have a conversation with dozens of starts and stops, there should be one place for all of the ideas.

The idea that this only matters to a small group is a myth
This conversation has been going on for more than 2 years now. Yes, now the push is coming almost exclusively from a small group of zealous players (like me) and people new to the raiding scene (the “I cant find a group posts” that keep popping up) and the backlash seems to be a little larger (I claim that is because this conversation is taking place in the raiding subforum where, naturally, there are more fans of the current system). But that wasn’t always the case. In the early days of this dialogue, there were a lot of people asking for something more. Look at the CDI for the best examples – The top 4-5 requests when people were asked what they wanted in raids were almost always centered around accessibility, scaling and making sure people weren’t left to the side because of how they play. Many of those people no longer post – most likely because they feel they lost the fight back then (a sentiment I don’t agree with).

Over time, many of those people were also worn down by the constant criticism and hate directed to them by a small group who refuse to see any need for change – but that doesn’t mean they aren’t still there (in fact, I know they are – I have talked to dozens in game). The sad reality is that it is very hard to post about this and have a real discussion because of the backlash from that small group of players rather than any lack of substance.

If anything, we probably lost a sizeable number of those players entirely based on the drought and being left out of the one thing Anet did release in that time frame.

Out of sight, out of mind
Again, this is a topic that matters. Over time, the conversation has dwindled (for the reasons I state above), but it still matters. Even if the developers choose to never change the raiding model, they need the constant reminder that there is a group of players out there who remain unhappy with the current content model.

There may be new ideas we haven’t heard yet
This one is pretty self explanatory. When new ideas arise, they need to be viewed in context with the larger conversation – not just with people like me, but with people on the other side of the argument as well. That is what helps the community foster new ideas.

If it were up to me, all of the threads on this topic would be merged – and then stickied. This conversation is obviously important to people long term.

Now, with that said, PLEASE refrain from simply trying to shut down the conversation and let’s get back to having it.

OnizukaBR.8537:

Blaeys.3102:

Sarrs.4831:

Astralporing.1957:

Adding more raids cannot. Opening them up to a wider community can.

In a “difficulty modes for raids” discussion, they are the same thing.

Not necessarily. There are plenty of games that achieve this goal through tiered difficulty – and GW2 itself has systems in place that should be able to (again, only devs can say for sure) accomplish it without completely overhauling the content – challenge motes (which could just as easily be story or training motes), group size scaling (letting more than 10 people enter in a squad), the straight leveling system they use in fractals, etc.

Yes, anything they do will take some resources, but I – and others, obviously – believe it is something worth exploring.

As even a GM pointed in two other topics, this thread is already beaten to death. So if you dont have nothing new to bring to the table, better stop reviving this topic before its locked as the others.

They closed those threads – rightfully so – because they mirrored this one. Doesn’t mean the topic is dead – or that people shouldn’t continue to make their opinions and ideas heard on the subject. Otherwise, this thread would have been closed as well.

We simply need to stay on topic and discuss it in a level headed manner – when possible, providing real feedback and dialogue.

I don’t think the closure of the other two threads was meant to shut the conversation down – but rather to streamline It (at least, I hope that is the case). Yes we’ve been talking about this exact topic for a very long time (at least 18 months dating back to the CDI with Chris Whiteside), but that is just because it is something people find important/are passionate about (on multiple sides). That is exactly what the forums are here for.

If there is a topic that is of ongoing concern to a portion of the active playerbase, it is in the best interest of the community and the developers to keep that topic alive, even if it does get a little repetitive at times. People need to know there is a place where their voices are heard for as long as they feel there is a real issue, ESPECIALLY when that topic criticizes a direction the game/the developers are taking. Otherwise, they might as well shut the entire forum down.

And to get the conversation back on topic:

My post above is simply to point out that adding difficulty levels doesn’t have to be as complicated as adding completely new raid wings would be, as the person I was responding to implied – that there are ways to do it like those we have seen in other games – or by using the systems that already exist in GW2 that I cited above. That seems like a good conversation to have.

I would add to that – some of the absolute best conversations on this topic took place back in the original CDI with Whiteside, back before any of us even knew what raids would be in GW2. A lot of people had some really good feedback/ideas back then (that, unfortunately, did get drowned out by the same hate we see in many of these threads). I would love to see some of those conversations revived.

Sarrs.4831:

Astralporing.1957:

Adding more raids cannot. Opening them up to a wider community can.

In a “difficulty modes for raids” discussion, they are the same thing.

Not necessarily. There are plenty of games that achieve this goal through tiered difficulty – and GW2 itself has systems in place that should be able to (again, only devs can say for sure) accomplish it without completely overhauling the content – challenge motes (which could just as easily be story or training motes), group size scaling (letting more than 10 people enter in a squad), the straight leveling system they use in fractals, etc.

Yes, anything they do will take some resources, but I – and others, obviously – believe it is something worth exploring.

As others have said, if you use LFG, you’ll probably find a few people interested in doing it just for the experience – maybe even agree to help out other small guilds open theirs in exchange for their help.

It is definitely possible with groups of just about any size.

Legendary should denote mastering the game at the highest level in all aspects – including PVE, PVP, WvW, Raids, Fractals – even stuff like jumping puzzles. Creating a legendary should involve reaching the pinnacle in all of these game modes. Otherwise, what’s the point?

Tying it exclusively to raids was a mistake.

I know a lot of people look down on the “play how you want” mentality, but it has been a differentiator for GW2 compared to other games since day one. How they approached raids in general, and definitely the last “balance” patch, are taking the game in the wrong direction – one that is having, imo, a very negative impact on how players feel about GW2 and Anet.

I know people (including some devs) don’t want to hear it, but this is why multiple raid tiers are needed so badly. We will never see any semblance of actual balance between all of the professions. There will always be those that FAR outshine others when it comes to mission critical tasks such as pure damage, boon sharing, healing, interrupts, etc. The only solutions would just serve to destroy any flavor between the classes and take something important from the game.

Imo, top tier epic raiding should be developed around the min-max meta – providing the ultimate challenge for those who don’t care about class flavor and simply want to play to the math.

At the same time, there should be a semi challenging 10-player experience for the rest – the ones that want to play scepter mesmers or rifle engineers or longbow rangers (or dozens of other options) without having to worry about hurting someone else’s chances at completing the raid.

Accidently linked the group shot above. Here is the pic of the contest winner as Marvin the Martian.

Also, it looks like one of our runner ups didn’t make the group shot – so the shot of the Bride (Beatrix) costume from Kill Bill is also attached.

Every year, I’m really impressed with how creative people can get just mixing and matching armor looks.

Every year, my guild holds an in game Halloween costume contest where players mix and match armor and character looks for fun and prizes. We’ve done this for three years and seen some amazing creativity, including costumes themed around a ninja turtle, Gozer from Ghostbusters, a wide range of superheroes and much more.

This year, we held our contest this past Monday, in order to avoid conflicts with family activities this weekend and on the 31st. We had 19 total entries (down from aprox 30 last year, but that was just after HOT launch), and, again, we had some really creative submissions.

The winner this year dressed as Marvin the Martian (file is linked below), but it was a tight contest with three other entries getting almost as many votes – members dressed as the superhero Hawkman, the Bride from Kill Bill and a War Boy from Mad Max.

Just wanted to share the fun with the rest of the amazing GW2 community.

TexZero.7910:

Rednik.3809:

Blipp.5206:

…

tldr: “this will not work because I said so”
Except that WoW have exactly that mechanics and it works. So, is that WoW have that special kind of people who understands that “ability that almost killing you on lower difficulty WILL kill you on higher, better avoid that”, or you think that GW2 have even more special kind of people who unable to understand that?

It didn’t work for wow.

Most people who used the LFR for WoW never went on to do the hard mode equivalent of the same fight.

Of course it worked in WoW – or it wouldn’t be there anymore (and they definitely wouldn’t have built on it the way they have).

And who cares if people moved on to higher difficulties or not? Maybe the point is that they had fun with the content – the same way some people enjoy low level fractals for the experience of doing them and care nothing about doing anything above level 60.

Giving more people ways to have fun with the content is kinda the whole point.

For me, the thing that would have the biggest impact – by a huge margin – would be greatly expanded capacity for bloodstone dust, empyreal fragments and dragonite ore. Even with the sinks, I average several thousand of each on any given day.

To answer the bigger question, anything that is used in crafting recipes (which would include blade shards) should have a material storage slot. Anything that is used as currency should go into the wallet. Everything else should be in the regular bank.

The other big change I would love to see is a character tab for transformation tonics similar to the one used for finishers.