Guild Wars 2

Miellyn.6847:

Crystal Reid.2481:

Our goal is not to make content easier, but rather add an additional layer of difficulty onto the challenge motes where it makes sense.

There you go.
And when they want to add a hard mode with challenge mote they think the actual difficulty is fine and doesn’t need an easy mode.

And some of us strongly disagree with this decision – the impetus for these kind of threads.

Miellyn.6847:

You still dance around the question how it should work without massivly increasing the devolopment cycle for raids or slowing down other content.

I can point to a feature that pretty much disproves the myth that adding this would significantly increase development time – challenge motes.

If it is possible to add challenge motes to every encounter in the new wing and still get the content out on schedule, then the idea of a story mote (or mode) should be possible as well.

Miellyn.6847:

The thing that actually changed in the last 8 years is the mindset of players, that they have to see everything.

I’m not sure that people wanting to experience interesting content with friends – in a way that they find fun and that fits with their playstyle – is new to the game.

Miellyn.6847:

Blaeys.3102:

LFR did not kill raids in WoW. I stopped playing the game years ago, but my friends who still do tell me that raids are more popular there than ever – and that is thanks in big part to the flex raiding system they implemented (which is needed in this game).

They are popular because the content patches features mostly raids and almost nothing for open world except 1 or 2 patches that feature open world but no raid. Also they are needed to progress the main story unlike GW2 and WoW is a raid game in general. Two completly different systems.
LFR is also automatic matchmaking which contributes to it’s popularity. Something that can’t be achieved in the current GW2 systems.

Flex raiding only exists for the 3 lower difficulties, not for mythic. GW2 raids are intended as the most challenging content (which would be mythic in WoW terms), which can’t be achieved with scaling as you can abuse some scaling breakpoints on abilities.

The fact that mythic – which is intended to be the most challenge – exists alongside flex raiding, LFR and the lower difficulty levels clearly shows that it is possible to have both challenge and accessible instances without detracting from either experience.

LFR did not kill raids in WoW. I stopped playing the game years ago, but my friends who still do tell me that raids are more popular there than ever – and that is thanks in big part to the flex raiding system they implemented (which is needed in this game).

Crystal Reid.2481:

In the past year and a half, the overall skill level of the Guild Wars raiding community has risen at a staggering pace. Naturally, content will seem easier now as players continue to refine their theorycrafting and personal skill.

Our goal is not to make content easier, but rather add an additional layer of difficulty onto the challenge motes where it makes sense.

What grew at a “staggering pace” was everyone’s knowledge of and willingness to conform to metas that small groups min maxed the math on in the past year – to determine the absolute easiest way to complete.

What you are doing is alienating a large number of the type of players that bought the game to play alongside their friends – with builds and playstyles they actually consider fun. It is detrimental to the larger community in the game – and showing very clearly that the Anet developing the game now is not the same as the Anet that developed what was the best MMO on the market 4.5 years ago.

I realize I’m one of the more vocal people regarding this topic, but it is because I sincerely believe it is bad for the game – and I still REALLY want this game – and my guild here – to remain fun for years to come. I really hate the idea of looking for a new game.

If true, that would be a significant step in the right direction – bringing the game back to what it should be – but we will have to see first.

However, based on what little we’ve seen so far regarding clears on reddit, it’s most likely a step in the other direction – which will only alientate and segment people even further.

Need more groups to see it first to know for sure though.

New zone and story are fun.

Map seems perfect for new guild missions. Really don’t understand why they aren’t part of LS content drops. Please. Please. Please. It is years past time.

The problem isn’t that chronomancers are the only profession that can tank. The problem is that, in the current meta, the difference between bringing and not bringing a chronotank is far too wide a gap. You lose too much utility.

This is also true of PS warriors, druids/rangers and elementalists (in the last case, for their damage).

Can you raid on any profession? Of course. Will you struggle/suffer for it if you try to bring something not on the approved list? Most likely (unless you have a very experienced group, almost definitely).

No matter how much people want to deny it, raids are about the meta – and while that is partly a player created problem, it is a problem that only ArenaNet can really solve.

Raids are a mess. The only skill required comes primarily from the ability to copy paste builds, a gear grind and then a tiny bit of practice.

As I’ve said before, however, I would have far less of an issue with it if there were some way – preferably through tiered levels – to let people realistically experience the content regardless of playstyle, build preference or gear related timesinks.

Oh Snapalope.1378:

No class rebalance…. I’m really tired of the current tempest fiesta already. Give us the previous balance patch where you can take anything in the game and it’s just as good as everything else. Also I know the necro bug, where they are actually good, is fixed. Is it too much to ask to bug necros again?

Unfortunately, Anet has decided that skill = the ability to copy builds from websites – and the punishment for not doing so is crippling your group and severely lowering your chances at ever seeing the content.

Bad design choices by Anet at endgame have turned what was once a “have fun playing the profession/playstyle you enjoy most” into “conform or accept being excluded from encounters/storylines/group activities.”

It seems like a small thing, but to a fair number of people, it is probably the worst thing that ever happened to the game.

vectorfox.6894:

Blaeys.3102:

DPS requirements and enrage mechanics are lazy design elements that create the illusion of difficulty. They should be removed – especially, as people say, they don’t really matter for experienced groups anyway. This alone would open up raids for a greater variety of playstyles and builds (including some that people consider cheese, but so what).

Once that is done, they could easily (I think, but could be wrong) add a challenge and a story mote to every encounter. The challenge mote adds the enrage back in, alongside potential new mechanics. The story mote tones down the boss health and the severity of attacks/mechanics by a set percentage (but doesn’t remove them).

Each mote is assigned the appropriate reward level.

And, with that, this would be a non issue.

But doesn’t that just remove any of the skill from it, i mean if there was no timer on the boss you could all just run nomads and have no way to fail, i mean hey i would love to run my selfish cleric ranger like i do in fractals watching everyone drop but me but it would completely take the point out of raids.

It would only remove skill if it were the only option. By offering multiple tiers – through the idea of motes (which they have said they are open to using in raids) – it doesn’t remove anything at all. It just extends a new experience to more players.

Coconut.7082:

None of the bosses has an Enrage timer that prevents you from using “cheese builds” (Look up 10 healing Tempest kills)

So why are the timers even there, then? Based on your input here, it sounds like they don’t really serve a purpose at all (which is kinda my point as well).

DPS requirements and enrage mechanics are lazy design elements that create the illusion of difficulty. They should be removed – especially, as people say, they don’t really matter for experienced groups anyway. This alone would open up raids for a greater variety of playstyles and builds (including some that people consider cheese, but so what).

Once that is done, they could easily (I think, but could be wrong) add a challenge and a story mote to every encounter. The challenge mote adds the enrage back in, alongside potential new mechanics. The story mote tones down the boss health and the severity of attacks/mechanics by a set percentage (but doesn’t remove them).

Each mote is assigned the appropriate reward level.

And, with that, this would be a non issue.

As the leader of a large active guild, I do not miss the influence system at all. Yes, they took some steps backwards with HOT and their support for guilds has been lacking lately (no new guild missions in almost 4 years), but the one thing they did get right was the guild rep and contributions system with HOT. Contribution to a guild is now much more optional and proactive (with scribing and the event token vendor).

fourhim.3584:

I don’t do raids. Is this chapter going to add a new map/zone to explore (like previous chapters), or does it all just take place in Divinity’s Reach?

Thanks

Given how insistent they have been about the raid team being separate and not taking away from living story development, it would be a huge step backwards if this release did not include a new world map. Surely they wouldn’t do that.

My guess is were going to get the area to the east or to the north of Divinity’s Reach as a playable zone.

It is a symptom of the bigger issue, which is Anet’s “launch and leave it be” approach to reoccurring content.

I’m all for new stuff, but that shouldn’t give them a pass on supporting the old stuff as well. Dragonball was in the same state last year – players asked for changes – and nothing happened. Toypocalypse was the same with people asking to be able to enter in guild or friend groups. Year-to-year, no change – its obviously intended as filler and to allow devs to say “look we gave you something new.”

And, of course, there are guild missions, which were added to the game and haven’t been touched (in terms of new PVE content) in almost 4 years now, despite implementation of an “easy to update” system with HOT.

It often feels like Anet is only interested in implementing “headliner” content that can be touted outside the game to try and entice new players – while virtually ignoring standing or reoccuring content that really needs ongoing developer attention/support.

DutchRiders.2871:

@ blaeys

Agreed lets not make this personal and lets accept that nobody knows the statistics needed to support any argument about allocating resources.

Yet we have the word of an insider that you must not underestimate the much needed resources. Furthermore Anets stance on the matter clearly signals that they do not think a tiered raiding system is worth it. You keep bringing it up but they have decided. If you wanna make raids better argue about accessibility without a tiered system. Or talk about other group content preparing you for raids.

Personally I enjoy all kinds of content and I prefer varying content. Any resources put in a different iteration of the same content is a waste for me.

But hej lets keep putting effort in this dead topic.

Thank you for reinforcing the importance of avoiding personal attacks and belittling posts.

Here is my take, which I’ve had since the very beginning -

They could have turned anything into challenging content – a fractal, a personal story step, open world bosses (by creating instanced versions accessible via the guild flag), guild missions, things like Liadri, dungeons – virtually anything.

The reason they took the path they did (imo) is that, for the average MMO player playing other games (that they wanted to market to with HOT), the term raid implies a higher level of difficulty. But, keep in mind that is only an experiential definition, not a definitive one. Plenty of games use 10 player instancing to provide more accessible content – in many cases, lower tier versions of raids.

I think Anet played off of the experiential definition as part of the marketing/PR plan for Heart of Thorns. By adding the word “raid” to the box, they were able to market to a new kind of player – to, as we say in the industry, “expand their brand.” They went a step further by saying “and it will be the hardest content we’ve ever included” in order to differentiate and break away from the perception of the game as more casual outside of the existing playerbase. They were marketing to a specific kind of player – one that currently wasn’t playing GW2. It had very little to do with existing players, imo.

When they did that, they boxed themselves into a corner, in my opinion. In reality, a raid is nothing more than a 10-player instance. Within that instance they can do anything they want.

What I would have liked to have seen was the addition of raids as another base type of content – something that could be easily woven into the story alongside LS instances, fractals, guild missions and open world. Then the “challenging content” team would come in behind all of that content and add hardcore versions across the board – one quarter it might be a challenge fractal, the next it would be changes to a world boss or guild mission – and so on.

This, imo, would have added a lot more depth to the game – and would have allowed the story team to integrate 10 player content on an ongoing basis into the development plan.

By taking the path they took, they are essentially segmenting the playerbase unnecessarily. Now, I realize it is already somewhat segmented based on player perception of content, the meta, etc- but it has never been to the degree that raids create (something they have surely seen and knew was going to happen by looking at the history of other raiding games).

Ten player instances do not necessarily equal challenging content. In fact, a single player encounter can be made just as, or more, difficult in most cases (as proof, look at pretty much any hard single player game).

And, now, we have this perception in the game that raids have to equal hardcore. That tool is now reserved for a very specific type of content. Those kind of limits aren’t good for the game. And the further playerbase segmentation that comes with them is very unhealthy for the game.

This topic has been discussed for a really long time, I agree – but I do not agree that it is dead. As long as raids perpetuate the level of segmentation they currently do, this topic will naturally resurface on these and other forums (we’ve seen it happen). And I don’t expect it to stop anytime soon. There is a lot of passion and animosity on all sides (and there are definitely more than two sides) of this. That said, I do think, most of the time, the conversation is healthy and productive (even a lot of times when I disagree with what is being said).

But, again, thanks for not making it personal or resorting to insults/generalizations. That is what these forums should look like.

maddoctor.2738:

Blaeys.3102:

Of course. But, it comes down to priorities, which – in most cases – need to be determined based on the mass appeal/profitability (in terms of game and gem store sales)/sustainability/etc that each mode brings to the game.

Do you have any kind of data to prove which content brings the more money? I guess you don’t, so you don’t know what the priorities are either, for all we know Raiders are bringing in more money than others and making more Raids IS the most profitable way to go. Something that appeals to some kind of “unofficial” majority, isn’t also profitable, while something that appeals to a minority can be really profitable.

If I’m wrong and Anet sees raids as more profitable or appealing than they seem, then, sure, they should accelerate their development.

But, even if that is the case, they need to be careful. For some, it would signify a major shift in how the game is developed/prioritized and Anet would need to accept any attrition as those players become a little more disillusioned with the game’s direction.

maddoctor.2738:

Blaeys.3102:

That is why raiding – in its current form – feels so out of place in the game and, frankly, contrary to the feel many came to game to experience.

This is true for players like you who started playing in the last year or two. Older players, especially those who’ve been with the game since release, and those without memory deficiency issues, remember all to well that not all content in the game was ever made for everyone. It’s puzzling that after Raids all the crowd who never run a dungeon or fractal is coming to this part of the forums talking about raids.

Don’t make assumptions – and the veiled insults are really not helpful. Ive been here since the beginning – leading what is probably one of the largest continually active guilds in the game.

Even old school dungeons purposefully (imo) stayed away from hard enrage timers/mechanics so that players could build in a tiered approach – with harder core players going full zerker while those that needed a cushion built in more survivability. Even in the first months of the game, I saw players of all skill levels completing every path of Arah – the only deviation was how long it took them. It may not have been completely obvious to all players at the time, but a form of scaling was there.

maddoctor.2738:

Blaeys.3102:

The community is at least partly to fault for this. You cant demand content be developed for a small percentage of the population – then deride and belittle anyone suggesting it have a broader appeal – and then turn around and expect that content to be a developmental focus.

You CAN do that. Players have been asking for new dungeons since forever although they are for a small percentage of the population.

Players have been asking for new Fractals for a similarly long amount of time, also something for a small percentage of the population.

Not to go to WvW and PvP with players asking for more content for those game modes too, although they are something for a small percentage of the population.

Saying that you cannot demand for something because it applies to a small percentage of the population is terrible. They need to equally release something for all the percentage of the population, they need to release new raids, new fractals, new pvp maps, new pve maps, something for everyone, that’s how companies work, and how they should work.

Of course. But, it comes down to priorities, which – in most cases – need to be determined based on the mass appeal/profitability (in terms of game and gem store sales)/sustainability/etc that each mode brings to the game.

By Anet’s own admission, raids are currently developed for a smaller percentage of the game’s population – and the one time Anet introduced anything tangentially related to the raid in the gem store, raiders freaked out.

As long as that limited focus continues to dictate their approach to raid development, the raiding community should accept that the content should have a (imo considerably) lesser focus than other parts of the game.

Again, this is a response to the OPs request to accelerate raid development. It simply isn’t warranted and doesn’t make sense for a game mode that, by the devs own admission, isn’t currently being designed for most players.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Blaeys.3102:

The community is at least partly to fault for this. You cant demand content be developed for a small percentage of the population – then deride and belittle anyone suggesting it have a broader appeal – and then turn around and expect that content to be a developmental focus.

Raiding should be a sporadic thing, with the emphasis remaining on those things that drive GW2’s mass appeal (open world, wvw, etc). That isn’t to say it shouldn’t be something they put out – just that it doesn’t warrant treatment as a core game feature as long as the audience and focus remain as limited as they are.

And just feel lucky that it’s just six months. We’ve been waiting almost 4 years now for new guild missions.

One flaw you have in your argument, And it’s a big one. The Raid Dev Team does not Hinder any other content development and no one demanded it to be the main focus of content development, but iirc you demanded the Raid Team work on projects that would slow down the release of Raid content/development.

And the raids were designed for and exceeded their Expectaions of Audience, all content doesn’t have to appeal to every that is something you need to come to understand, every piece. Of content released has a specific target audience, it’s not a hard concept to grasp, that not everyone would like or want to do raids because not everyone have the same tastes.

I was just explaining why accelerating the content – in the manner the OP is advocating for – is not really warranted or expected.

cranos.5913:

Blaeys.3102:

cranos.5913:

Blaeys.3102:

cranos.5913:

NikeEU.7690:

I still wonder why it’s not OK for there to exist content that you say, “this isn’t for me so I’ll just not do it.” I don’t understand why raids are this weird game mode where certain players feel entitled to a certain accessibility.

99% of these QQ threads eventually boil down to “I want leggy armor”.

I would challenge you to back that statement up with the actual threads. From what I see, most people advocating this kind of change (with a few exceptions) even make a point to say that any lesser difficulty mode should have a lesser reward (that does not include legendary armor).

Most just want it because we think it would be fun – and something new to do for more people in the game. It really isn’t any more sinister than that.

No, most start that way. Whether it’s a topic about QQ story QQ training QQ easy mode or anything else, few pages down the line they drop the act and the QQ armor starts.

You’re taking the comments of one or two posters and applying them to everyone to turn a meaningful conversation into a discussion about loot (which many of us agree with you on btw – multiple difficulties should have different reward systems).

It boils the conversation down to the most contentious (and thus most easily refuted) point – and simply isn’t representative of the larger discussion – which should be focused on the appeal and potential of multiple difficulty tiers in terms of bringing more people into raiding, giving more people more to do, justifying greater resources for the game mode in general, etc.

This conversation has been had and unlike you may claim, it hasn’t been belittled or derided at all.

It’s very simple.

Anet changes main focus to raids instead of LS: sure have all the easy/medium/hard modes you want.

Anet doesn’t change course and keeps it as is: it’s been taking over 6 months already for new content and you’re asking for extra modes, depriving the target audience of content for an easy 6 months more.

So what exactly are you asking here? Less raid content or less emphasis on those things that drive “mass appeal”?

I was simply responding to you baseless claim that everyone advocating for this kind of change is simply looking for easy to get legendary armor. While there have been a few rare posters asking for that kind of change, most seem to realize it isn’t the focus of most of these conversations.

To the point you just now brought up, I don’t think raids will ever be considered a core game feature of GW2, but that doesn’t mean the developers cannot (or should not) look at how 10-player instances (which is really all that defines a GW2 raid) could be used as a general content development tool.

To many of us, the appeal of GW2 PVE has always been that we didn’t have to worry about the skill level of the people we played alongside – we chose who to play with based on FRIENDSHIPs rather than how much effort they put into their gear/rotations/etc. It made the game friendlier and more open to groups of friends/the formation of in-game communities).

At the same time, where appropriate, content offered tiers so that those of us looking for a bit more of a challenge (including myself in many cases) could hop into a higher level fractal or go for the tougher achievements.

That mix and diversity – across all PVE game modes – made GW2 a pretty unique game and place to play with friends. For many of us, raiding takes the game in the opposite direction.

That isn’t about loot or legendary armor as you claim – it is simply about wanting to enjoy content with people based on friendships rather than mathematical requirements/adherence to metas/etc. Again, it is no more sinister than that.

To add to that – I realize why there is so much tension around this topic. A lot of people see these games as a competition – a way to show skill and gaming prowess. But, there are other kinds of gamers out there – those who look at GW2 as the ultimate fantasy world game where we can act heroic alongside friends (with no more motivation than that). At launch and for the first 3 years, GW2 was the perfect game for those kinds of people – eschewing the segmentation so many other MMOs heavy handily pushed on communities. That is why raiding – in its current form – feels so out of place in the game and, frankly, contrary to the feel many came to game to experience.

cranos.5913:

Blaeys.3102:

cranos.5913:

NikeEU.7690:

I still wonder why it’s not OK for there to exist content that you say, “this isn’t for me so I’ll just not do it.” I don’t understand why raids are this weird game mode where certain players feel entitled to a certain accessibility.

99% of these QQ threads eventually boil down to “I want leggy armor”.

I would challenge you to back that statement up with the actual threads. From what I see, most people advocating this kind of change (with a few exceptions) even make a point to say that any lesser difficulty mode should have a lesser reward (that does not include legendary armor).

Most just want it because we think it would be fun – and something new to do for more people in the game. It really isn’t any more sinister than that.

No, most start that way. Whether it’s a topic about QQ story QQ training QQ easy mode or anything else, few pages down the line they drop the act and the QQ armor starts.

You’re taking the comments of one or two posters and applying them to everyone to turn a meaningful conversation into a discussion about loot (which many of us agree with you on btw – multiple difficulties should have different reward systems).

It boils the conversation down to the most contentious (and thus most easily refuted) point – and simply isn’t representative of the larger discussion – which should be focused on the appeal and potential of multiple difficulty tiers in terms of bringing more people into raiding, giving more people more to do, justifying greater resources for the game mode in general, etc.

It doesn’t help that races are still bugged.

Anet’s ambivalence toward guild missions is baffling to me. We haven’t seen a new PVE mission since May of 2013 (almost 4 years now) despite the appeal of that kind of content – and the “easy to update” system they claim they implemented with HOT.

Right now, my guild only does missions for one reason – it gives us an in game excuse to get together in a large group. That’s pretty much it. We’ve done every mission so many times at this point that we could probably do them blindfolded. I think it’s telling that, despite that fact – and that most of us probably find them pretty boring at this point, we still do them every week.

And every week we talk about how great it would be to have some new ones. We continue to hold out hope, but, at the same time, feel a little less enthusiastic (about the game in general) the longer we have to wait.

I’m not sure how to say it any louder – or, at this point, if Anet has simply forgotten about them – but if their silence/lack of movement after 4 years is any indication of future developmental priorities, I worry for the future of the game.

It’s time for them to remember just how important guilds – and the communities they create – are to this game. And they definitely need to do so before another game/developer out there realizes how badly they’ve dropped this ball and actually gives us what this game was trying to do – in regard to developing and supporting in game communities – 3.5 years ago.

And, as a reminder (again) – https://youtu.be/W1WBYEfJVb4?t=334

cranos.5913:

NikeEU.7690:

I still wonder why it’s not OK for there to exist content that you say, “this isn’t for me so I’ll just not do it.” I don’t understand why raids are this weird game mode where certain players feel entitled to a certain accessibility.

99% of these QQ threads eventually boil down to “I want leggy armor”.

I would challenge you to back that statement up with the actual threads. From what I see, most people advocating this kind of change (with a few exceptions) even make a point to say that any lesser difficulty mode should have a lesser reward (that does not include legendary armor).

Most just want it because we think it would be fun – and something new to do for more people in the game. It really isn’t any more sinister than that.

The community is at least partly to fault for this. You cant demand content be developed for a small percentage of the population – then deride and belittle anyone suggesting it have a broader appeal – and then turn around and expect that content to be a developmental focus.

Raiding should be a sporadic thing, with the emphasis remaining on those things that drive GW2’s mass appeal (open world, wvw, etc). That isn’t to say it shouldn’t be something they put out – just that it doesn’t warrant treatment as a core game feature as long as the audience and focus remain as limited as they are.

And just feel lucky that it’s just six months. We’ve been waiting almost 4 years now for new guild missions.

At this point, I would trade everything they gave us last year for a few new guild missions.

There aren’t many things that can kill an MMO – especially one as popular as GW2 has become.

But the one biggest draw bringing people back into these games (imo) is a sense of community. The communities we build in the game keep us playing.

Anet needs to start supporting those communities again – and that, first and foremost, means starting to pay attention to – and building content for – guilds again.

maddoctor.2738:

I hope you will try to get some data to support how Raids are like WvW and PvP and not like Fractals/Dungeons because I believe Raids aren’t like that at all.

Obviously I’m not basing the comment on numbers or hard data (which – in both my and your fractal example – only Anet really has), but rather on Anet’s own admission that raids – in their current iteration – were developed for a smaller number of players – eg, they were designed to be exclusive. That is more akin to wvw or pvp than it is to something like fractals, which – whether you think people play low levels or not (I think they do, but again, only Anet probably has that data) – were designed to offer similar experiences to the majority of players.

Raids are designed to be exclusive. The issue is I don’t think that system is sustainable, for the reasons I list above (such as snowballing reward issue once we get past legendary armor and the continual degradation of build/profession diversity in the playerbase). Raids need better mass appeal, something that will be hard to do regardless of the path they choose – tiered difficulties just seem like the most logical way to make that happen (and once Anet realizes that they can do it and still market the content as “hardcore” outside of the game I am confident it will happen).

Ive been trying to put my finger on why my playtime has gradually diminished the past six months, and – in talking with friends last night – I think we came up with the real answer.

The game needs more guild focused content. It’s as simple as that. From a single player perspective, GW2 does a better job than any MMO on the market, imo, but it still cannot compete with pure single player games that focus on that experience.

Group based play (5 and 10 player) is fun and worth supporting, but I often find that it, oddly enough, works counter to community and guild focused activities. When you are restricted to a set number of players, leaders are put in tough spots regarding who to invite and who to leave out. So, while its good to see new content, it isn’t really conducive to guild health and activity.

Real guild content – when we’ve gotten it – has filled that gap nicely – and better than any MMO I have ever played. Capturing and building the guild hall – experiencing guild missions when they were new and fresh – community focused bosses like Tequatl or the Marionette – these all brought guilds and friends together to create what I felt was the best MMO experience I could possibly have.

But, it has been a year since guild halls needed real support, a year and half since the last major engagement was introduced (Mordremoth) and almost 4 years since the last guild missions.

Guild don’t have anything substantial to do together right now, and it is hurting the game experience.

We need new guild missions.

We need new world bosses THAT ARE TRIGGERABLE WITH THE GUILD FLAGS scribes build.

We need new objectives for guild halls.

We just need something for guilds to do in game before people start drifting away to more interesting pastimes.

maddoctor.2738 said:
3-4 new raid bosses a quarter would be amazing to be honest but I doubt we’ll get 3-4 raid bosses per quarter, more like 3-4 per year or 6 months. Why are you saying it won’t be enough?

My response:
You are right, I was being generous.

The reason it wont be enough is that, given the path raids are taking, they are essentially becoming a game within a game – something more akin to WvW or PvP than fractals, dungeons or LS. And while WvW and PvP have the inherent randomness that living opponents bring to the table – thus keeping the content fresh to a degree – raids will never have that. They have to rely on new content drops.

Successful raiding in other MMOs is possible because raiding is established as the pinnacle of end game – the thing all PVE players are working toward. That is where you fight the final boss – it is the achievement. Because they take this approach (and because they almost ALL have scaling difficulties in some form), they can put out multiple very detailed raids every year, spanning dozens of new raid fights.

GW2 will never be able to compete with that without completely changing the way the game works (which they shouldn’t do). That means raids will always be a niche in this game and, eventually, serious raiders will realize the serious raids – on regular schedules – are to be found elsewhere.

And, to add to it, think about what happens when Legendary Armor actually makes it into the game. I’m 99% sure the reason it isn’t in already has nothing to do with development time. It is because, once that carrot has been achieved, Anet realizes they have a real problem. How much effort do they put into ongoing special rewards for a small (and most likely by that time, severely diminishing) percentage of players. And while hardcore raiders may do the content once or twice for the challenge/fun, it is highly unlikely they will repeat it without the unique reward as incentive – which cuts the number of raiders between content drops significantly (it is a snowball type of issue).

That puts them in a huge rock and a hard spot situation. They either start churning out more raid-specific unique rewards (creating a real have/have not dynamic between raiders and non raiders in game) or they forego unique rewards, which would cut down the number of hardcore raiders significantly.

Raids need a sustainable model that warrants ongoing – and frequent – support. That means they need more people doing them. It’s simple logic that we see played out in pretty much any MMO with a successful raid model.

To your point about dungeons, yes, there was a small subset of players that played to a meta, but it was never seen as a wide spread requirement the way the community does with raids. Taking a bunker warrior or guardian to Arah didn’t diminish your group’s chances of success – it just added a little extra time to the run. People had the illusion of choice without significantly hurting the chances of completing the content (not talking about speed runs). You can say raids are doable with pretty much any gear (and that is true), but the reality is that certain builds make completion much easier, which wasn’t true to the same degree with dungeons (fractals aren’t really a viable example because – interestingly – they do have a successful scaling system in place already).

To all saying multiple difficulties would somehow diminish or ruin the game, it’s time for a dose of reality.

• The reality is that 3-4 new raid bosses a quarter will never be enough to keep the hardcore raiding players interested in the game mode long term. It’s a significant investment for a very minimal return.

• Likewise, they cannot really integrate any meaningful rewards that exceed what is available in the rest of the game for fear of alienating other players.

• Raids in their current form cannot be used as meaningful story telling tools for accessibility and continuity reasons.

• The further segmentation of the PVE community as numbers in game decline between expansions (which just happens – it isn’t a negative) doesn’t fit with the content model they have used successfully for years – which is to encourage people to play together- not apart.

• Raids have, for many, removed the illusion of choice from the game. Players are turning into carbon copy chronomancers, warriors, druids and elementalists (all the same build – all the same playstyle – all the same group comps – soon to all look the same with Legendary Armor). It takes some of the magic out of the game, even for those who do not raid, when this kind of thing happens to the community (and I definitely believe it is having an impact on the game).

Those are the negatives, but there is also a TON of potential to adding scaling systems:

• It opens up the design of 10-player content for more casual purposes (an actual working Toypocalypse comes to mind).

• It allows for the full integration of Living Story into 10 player content (as potential side stories), giving the developers reason to develop raid content faster – and revisit it more often as well.

• It brings the game back to an inclusive, rather than exclusionary, feel – something I feel has REALLY hurt the game this past year. There need to be more reasons for us to play together (and not just with the other 9 people we deem ready for raids) or the game will continue in bad direction.

• It gives people who want to retain that illusion of choice a place to experience the content without being detrimental to a party.

I do not think raids are a bad addition to the game. I just feel, given the resources they have and the nature of this particular game, raiding in its current form brings more negatives than positives to the current game dynamic.

Hopefully ArenaNet sees this in 2017 before some other MMO latches onto the vision they had at launch and makes the game we actually came here to play – rather than what GW2 is becoming (something that very well may happen given how many of the original developers are elsewhere developing games now).

It definitely needs to happen for a lot of reasons – from accessibility to story to keeping raids more relevant for larger groups of people. Most of these points have been raised MANY times in the past year. It really is in the hands of the devs now.

Be wary, however – the general reaction to these topics in this particular subforum is often less than cordial. The general strategy is often to shame (“its already easy – you must suck at the game” style comments) or insult people asking for this until they give up.

With that in mind, I am glad to see the topic resurfacing on a regular basis. It’s important that developers know there is a desire for this in the game’s community – despite the trolling and attempts to shut the conversation down.

A few years ago, my guild started a tradition. During the guild mission night just prior to Christmas, we hold the “March of the Holiday Dolls” through Lions Arch (and, now Divinity’s Reach) yelling Happy Holidays, Merry Christmas, Happy Wintersday, etc at everyone we see.

Below are pictures from the first (in the original LA) and the latest (in DR) events.

For me, this is the best part of GW2.

Was wondering if any other guilds have similar traditions?

I think a big part of the problem is that the last new guild mission content added to the game was on May 28, 2013.

There just isn’t enough organized PVE content for guilds to do together in the game right now – and hasn’t been for a REALLY long time.

Vinceman.4572:

Nobody said they are less dramatic or toxic than any other PvE content but they are in case of good ol dungeon times.
We had daily threads about alleged toxic behaviour because players were kicked for any/no reasons (from their own point of view). This is not applied by raids at all.

Well, and, even fractals are more toxic than raids.

IMO, the underlying issue with raids isn’t with the people doing them. For the most part, real raiders are a pretty accommodating group. While they are nowhere near as common as the forums would have us believe, there are training guilds/groups out there, people do try to help each other, etc.

The problem is the limiting nature of the content itself – and how Anet has made that worse rather than better.

First, there is the 10 players only issue. A common theme – that even Anet has acknowledged, is that 5-player parties are just easier to form. Group content that (in 95% of cases) cannot be done with any fewer or any more is the first limit.

On its own, that one wouldn’t be that bad. It’s when we dig deeper that the real issue – and resultant drama – occurs.

The single-tier difficulty tuned to provide a greater level of challenge. Challenging content is good for the game. Locking an entire game mode/content (with accompanying story/interesting boss mechanics/etc) behind a single difficulty level is not.

Next is the severely limited meta. Yes, almost any build can complete a raid, but the reality in game is that a beginning player who enjoys a rifle engineer is going to handicap the group a LOT more (too much more) than a staff ele.

Next, there is gear. Yes, ascended gear is easy to build for most people, but when the meta changes at the drop of a hat, it becomes tiring to some to have to keep building new sets or destroying/replacing runes and sigils.

And, finally, there is the lack of any other organized group content above the 5 person level. Guild missions were the perfect answer to this one, but we haven’t seen a new PVE guild mission since May 28,2013.

In a vacuum, raids aren’t toxic or drama-inducing. Just like anything else out there, there are good groups/leaders and bad groups/leaders. It is all about who you play with it.

It is the content model – combined with the realities of the game – that induces the drama and makes raids unenjoyable for many. The sad part is, Anet could fix all of these things, but they are too caught up on promoting raids as the end all be all challenging content for the game. That was a bad decision – not because the game doesn’t need challenge (it does), but because, when looked at in the actual context of the game, raids cause more drama through exclusion than they should or need to.

I don’t think anyone that has raided for more than a year can say with a straight face that raids are less dramatic or toxic than any other PVE content.

When you create something intended for larger groups, limit it to 10 players and then set up a difficulty barrier to entry that excludes (by Anet’s own admission) a large percentage of players – and then create a meta in which some play styles are EXTREMELY detrimental to the possible success of the group – then you are inevitably going to have people that feel left out or whose playstyles exclude them from groups (even groups with their friends).

This is further compounded by the lack of any other 10+ player organized PVE content in more than 3.5 years.

This isn’t saying raids themselves are bad or that they don’t have a place in the game. It is saying simply that when you don’t give guilds and other groups larger than 5 people any other organized PVE content, then the one thing you do introduce had kitten well better be open to (and designed for) the majority of players.

The direction they went with raids – to the exclusion of pretty much all other organized PVE group content (most notably guild missions) – is mindboggling – and, yes, it has contributed (to a small degree) to diminishing interest in the game.

And (because it always comes up), I do not hate raids (I do raids every week) – I do not hate raiders (I am one) – I just think that the model they have used – when combined with the lack of anything else even a tiny kittenallenging for organized groups – was a bad decision on ANet’s part.

Definitely agree that the decorations this year are a major disappointment.

The cubes, cuboids and hemispheres (why aren’t these globes instead) all look more like carved granite than snow. The local decoration limit makes it impossible to create a wintersday area in the guild hall by placing snowpiles together (or creating anything of substance with the blocks). The ice sculptures are nice – until the population limit forces you into a new map and they turn back into giant blocks of ice (again and again). The tree is TINY.

Lights, actual snowmen, the giant ground snowflakes we see in Divinity’s reach, snow patches that are big enough to actually cover a significant area, candy canes, present boxes – it isn’t hard to think of good decorations, any of which would be infinitely better than the cube/cuboid/half globes we got (in fact, most of what we would want probably already exists in the divinity’s reach area – so the art assets are there).

The thing that ArenaNet does best is holiday events, but this year is a major disappointment for those guilds hoping to celebrate in our guild halls (especially after the good job they did for Halloween).

I think repping still serves a couple of basic functions, primarily for missions and WvW, as others have noted above.

I do agree that it is a little draconian and arbitrary for a guild leader to enforce rep rules now that influence and other such guild wide benefits are gone (and, speaking as the leader of a guild with 100+ active members, I say good riddance to them).

Maybe the answer isn’t to do away with repping, but rather to do away with the little marker on the guild interface that turns from a square to an oval when someone reps a different guild. Given that repping really provides personal, rather than a guildwide, value now, the guild and guild leader really don’t need to be able to tell who is and isn’t repping all the time anymore.

Really, the only time I look to see who is repping now is when we start guild missions – but only to make sure everyone participating gets credit. We’ve had a couple of incidents where someone accidently ran our missions repping another guild and didn’t, but again, that is about personal rather than guild value.

It was team based the first year, but when they changed something behind the scenes, this and all other team-based holiday activities suddenly became every-player-for-themselves style events. Since then, they’ve communicated that they do not have the resources to rebuild them in a way that would allow us to reliably play them with our friends.

Personally, I’m not sure why some of them are still in the game at all. Things like this were obviously designed with teamwork in mind – then the shift in how they are implemented took the ability to enter as a team out. They really don’t make a lot of sense now.

This was brought up last year and the dev answer was, “we might look into it for next year.” Instead it has just been added to the pile of neglected – and often requested – content, alongside things like guild missions, the larger guild pvp area they talked about at HOT launch, bar brawl/archery contest minigames (which NPCs have been trying to direct us to in Divinty’s Reach for more than 4 years now), etc.

Anet has the best development team in the industry – by a wide margin in my opinion. Unfortunately, they also have a infuriating tendency to start or implement something into the game only to let it slowly die away from lack of continued support (even some things that almost everyone considered amazing when they first came out).

The spike in glacial fragment prices kinda put a damper on some guild hall decorating dreams for sure. Other than that single item, things seem to be fine – so hopefully they will hotfix the price to require 3-5 fragments instead of 15 (which runs 50+ gold alone the last time I looked)

My bigger disappoint is the lack of new decorations. The snowman ice sculpture is nice, but the cubes, cuboid, wedge and hemispheres are all colored differently than the rest of the snow and look more like chunks of white granite than anything festive. Where are the snowmen, the festive lights, icicles, etc.

And, for the love of Wintersday, why are they hemispheres instead of globes (which we could have piled on each other to make our own snowmen). I made a small and a large hemisphere for the guild ankitten ow just wishing I had kept the snowpiles (and have no interest in making the cubes at all).

Part of the reason this discussion doesn’t really subsist on the forums is that there isn’t really a good subforum for it. The general subforum sees posts pushed off the front page almost as fast as they are made – especially when the community mostly agrees on a topic (as is the case with missions – most everyone agrees they need work).

It makes it hard to keep the conversation alive.

Gaile Gray.6029:

Hey there,

We appreciate your Wintersday spirit! Information on the festival will be coming in the near future. In the meantime, don’t forget our hopes that you will share your arts and crafts on our Creative Corner forums, or on our Tumblr page! We love seeing your creations, your GW2 decorations, and anything you’d like to share. (On Tumblr, please use #GW2FanSubmission as your tag.)

Happy Wintersday… soon™.

Tomorrow is Tuesday, the day you usually give us new stuff.

Just sayin’.

joking of course – willing to be (a tiny tiny) bit more patient.

But. that is just speaking for myself. My guild has already started placing snowpiles and holiday trees in the guild hall. I can only hold them back for so long.

Guild missions definitely need some attention. It has been 3+ years since we saw the last new pve guild mission added to the game. Personally, while completely new missions are needed, I would like to see them add all of the world bosses to both the guild mission system and the guild flag trigger (the item that only currently starts the TT, Tequatl and Karka Queen fights). In fact, I could see them adding pretty much any significant dynamic event chain anywhere in the game. And, as we’ve said many times, it would be the perfect way to bring back things like the Marionette, the Ancient Karka (abbreviated), Breachmaker, etc.

As for reward, I think it is far less important than new content in terms of getting people to keep doing missions, but one thing I would like to see them add to the reward system is guild hall decorations. It is really strange to me that the new fractal drops hall decorations (at the 100 challenge mote level) and guild missions do not.

Given that they have said meters would be create undue stress on developmental resources, I think a better use of this thread might be to come up with creative ways they could implement that might provide personal improvement/performance measurement or metric tools they might be able to add into the game that wouldn’t cause that stress.

The training golem is an obvious step in that direction. What else could they add?

Maybe a group training golem that guilds can build in their halls? How about taking it a step further and give us a “danger room” where we can program waves of enemies (or specific bosses) to attack in a controlled environment with a group meter or other evaluation method?

There are a lot of fun (and useful) things they could add to the game. Let’s see what the community can actually come up with – and be productive rather than argue about this.

Yes. Let’s please put aside the idea that this topic is about loot and let’s focus on accessibility.

Even Ohoni, who has been the – by far – most vocal advocate of an easier way to get legendary armor has stated that the more important goal is accessibility, even if it means little to no gear drops in lesser difficulties (https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/A-Suggestion-For-Raids/page/13#post6418915).

Let’s focus this discussion on story accessibility for the sake of accessing the story (which I believe has to include gameplay – or it might as well just be a youtube video) and leave the discussion about reward/loot to other threads.

Yea, they said it has to do with technical issues.

It is one I wish they could easily fix – and then let us build tailored portals in our halls letting guilds enjoy these minigames in guild groups.

I’m sure it is WAY down the priority list, if it is a consideration at all, though.

Without that possibility, it would be almost impossible to die in that encounter. And what happens if all 5 people are downed at the same time? Would the boss just stop attacking?

I don’t think that would be good in what is intended to be one of the end encounters of a fractal experience.

Absurdo.8309:

I honestly think cleared instances convey the story.

I don’t want to belabor too much, because you and I are falling back into the loop we always do (I think we are a lot alike in how headstrong we can be – and both probably have more free time than we should), but I will expound on this sentence, which I think gets to the heart of the issue.

In all reality, watching a youtube video of a guild clearing an instance does more to convey the story than a cleared instance or NPC dialogue. For me, the point of accessibility isn’t about conveying or telling the story – its about offering the experience of the story (kind of the point of a video game compared to other media such as movies or books) – to give players the sense of being the hero.

The very first time our characters talk to us, just after creation, they end with the same phrase: “This is my story,” not, “this is the story of the group that did this for me.”

I think that is a very important distinction.

Absurdo.8309:

There’s no mote that makes a fight easier.

But, again, I’m not sure how this conversation helps at all. Motes, modes, whatever, are not on the table right now. If you really think there’s a problem with story access (beyond exploring a completed instance, which is interactive), and you think a video recap is bad (which is what they did for LS1), then you’re better off recommending something they’ll actually do.

Correct, the current implementation of motes has historically been to add challenge, but thinking that is all they can be used for doesn’t make any sense. Using that logic, the game would never improve or evolve.

1. There is no carved in stone rule that says motes have to be used to add challenge and never anything else. Of course they can be used for other purposes (and I think they would be perfect for this).

2. They have never said motes are off the table. In fact, they have (just a few days ago in the AMA) said they are considering adding motes to raids. So, yes, they are very much on the table.

3. Even the statement you keep citing about not adding modes was situational and much more specific than you imply – all they really said is that they do not currently plan to add the tiered system similar to that used in fractals in raids (which I agree wouldn’t work well). I think you are taking that and using it to justify a stance that nothing of any substance should be added at all, and I think that is stifling to the conversation.

4. Simply saying that motes and modes are the same thing doesn’t make it true. And, to be realistic, I would say that, in all likelihood, nothing is really completely off the table.

Simply letting people explore a cleared instance isn’t a solution. This is a video game. The whole point is to be the hero of the story. That means having the illusion of control over the outcome. Walking through a cleared instance has less interaction/consequence than a choose your own adventure book – and is pretty much the antithesis of being heroic (“and over here is where the real heroes took care of this for you”).

Videos, NPC regurgitations and cleared instances are bandaids, they are boring and they do not give players the experience of being the hero of the story (which is the whole point of playing). I think the resources they could spend on making any of those would be much better spent elsewhere. For the reasons I’ve cited, I don’t really see a solution that doesn’t involve actual gameplay/combat mechanics – and think instance tours or NPC dialogue would come across more as insulting than as actually trying to give players more accessibility to anything.

So, please – if you have recommendations that you think are better than those already discussed, do so. Should there be a single person instance that has facsimiles of the raid bosses? Five player instances? What are your thoughts?

I think an important question is – do you believe the only solutions are those that don’t offer the fights in any way to people other than those enjoying them now?

As with most topics, I think we need to keep the conversation open to all opinions and ideas – and not read more into the comment about what is on or off the table than was actually stated.