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Anet’s raids dont force people to be rude, those people simply choose to be so.
Noone forces players to play with unbelievable hardcore minmaxers. If there are so many people out there looking for a nice casual raid, these people should try forming a squad then.
I dont believe Anet’s raids force people to be rude either. I simply think that the current model doesn’t give people looking for a lower key experience a real option – which means they end up in raids alongside those who play for very different reasons. That creates tension and directly leads to situations like the one the OP describes here. It isn’t either group’s fault (unless of course, people are just being jerks) – it is simply that you end up with people in the same raid with very different goals and playstyles.
And, to clarify, I haven’t posted that I dislike raids or that I don’t believe they belong in the game. I raid every week. I just think they could be a much deeper and more inclusive experience than what we have now (and still offer the hardcore option people want).
Unfortunately, this kind of inexcusable behavior is commonplace in high level raid pugs, and can even rear its head among good friends.
As much as the players involved are to blame, however, some of the onus for this belongs to Anet. Their ridiculous raid model more or less forces players simply looking for the experience to either forget raids exist or have to play alongside min maxers and those who take the challenge much more serious. It would be like making everyone wanting to do fractals have to do t4s.
There really needs to be another way to experience the fun and interesting encounters in the raids.
The biggest problems I have with Wooden Potatoes are that, first, while he is very knowledgeable about the game, he does let ArenaNet influence his opinion more than he should (being straight up told on twitter that he should focus on the last raid when it dropped even though he had not originally planned to do so, for instance) and his tendency to blow off other opinions as trivial and temporary (again, we see that clearly in his second video here when he shrugs off raiding concerns as solely a result of the content drought – when those concerns persist heavily today).
And to be clear – I’m not saying he is a paid Anet shill. He definitely isn’t. But it is obvious that he takes at least some probably unintentional direction from them in what and how he covers things, probably from his respect for people at the company (which can be both a bad and a good thing).
That said, I do agree with some of what he said. I absolutely love season 3 of the living story and see the great work the anet teams are doing.
How do triggers for more difficult content offer “as much, if not more” to casual players? The content is more difficult, by default it’s not as accessible to more casual players. If the triggers already exist for more difficult content, then those places are where anyone asking for hard mode maps should go. The content already exists.
Also, weren’t the karka queen and tequatl originally introduced as much more difficult content way after vanilla release, and tequatl was revamped (same with the shatterer)? That would mean reworks for other types of bosses too, and those resources could honestly go towards better things in my opinion. I mean, maybe there’s a space for them considering the reworks of tequatl and the shatterer, so there’s obviously value they attribute to more difficult open world pve content options, but at the same time it must have taken a lot of resources to do so, because we don’t see them putting much into reworking current bosses and in fact have seen them putting it into newer releases (HoT map meta events, the entirety of dragon’s stand and other examples i’m more than likely not familiar with) so that’s where I’d rather see development go. Also I imagine it’s much easier to create an entirely new map that has more difficult world bosses than it is to rework current boss battles, so players who desire an increased difficulty in open world maps may be incentivised to purchase future expansions to get that increased difficulty open world maps they so desire.
Im not sure you understand how these triggers work now in the game. All I’m proposing is extending that functionality to all of the world bosses exactly as the triggers work now for TT, teq and KQ.
That then provides a basis for new triggers that groups could use based on their strength, organization and desired challenge.
The base concept however, would still be based around getting groups (primarily, but not limited to, guilds) to trigger all of the world bosses more often – with a side benefit that, should the group decide, they can try a harder (or possibly even easier for 5 player groups) versions of the fight.
Nothing is replaced. The current timers and boss spawns do not change AT ALL. It is solely above and beyond.
And we know this would work, because it works for KQ, Teq and TT now. Guilds triggering those bosses outside of the scheduled times has, to the best of my knowledge, never disrupted casual gameplay. If anything, it has added to it. Im simply proposing expanding that system – and then ADDING functionality that brings challenge into the game (without disrupting the rest of the game) only if groups chose to go the more challenging route.
Im not sure how that can be perceived as a negative in any way.
And to add, this was just a hypothetical. My original point is that there were better ways they could implement difficult content into the game than the way they did (raids). Maybe there are some flaws in this – Im sure Anet, if the put the same creativity they put into the base game – could come up with something better. Mine was just an example.
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This specific idea is terrible because it would force any casual players on that map who want to do this event to deal with more difficult mechanics that they weren’t ready for and may not even want to participate in.
I think you’re overlooking a key point (probably because I forgot to bring it up), though. This would have absolutely ZERO impact on the currently scheduled boss appearances.
As it is now with Tequatl, Karka Queen and Triple Trouble (the only places you can use the current triggers), you cannot use the triggers within set time periods around the times the boss naturally appears (a good design that would need to be continued with the system I discuss).
It would be completely above and beyond what is there now – thus having no impact on the experience casual players currently enjoy. Furthermore, it would serve to ensure that at least a small organized force is there when the tougher fights are attempted, something that would benefit anyone in open world.
And, of course, it would make it significantly easier for players to experience all of these open world fights – even on days when their work or life schedule dictates when they are on to play. It would offer as much, if not more, to the casual player as it does to the hardcore (again, without splitting them into separate instances).
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In my opinion, adapting and leveraging this item -
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Guild_World_Event_Schematic
would have been the perfect way to introduce difficult organized group content into guild wars 2. Extend it to include all world bosses and then make three versions of the trigger – one for the boss we have now, another for small guild groups and one for a blistering difficult version of the fight.
So, if a highly organized and talented guild group gets together and decides they want to do Shadow Behemoth, they:
- Go to Godlost Swamp
- Spend a minute or two getting on the same map instance (and pugging in people if needed)
- Use the “hardmode” schematic to trigger an open world version of that boss that offers a real challenge, new mechanics and unique loot.
I dont see any reason this same item couldn’t be used for dynamic event chains in the open world as well – with the same hard, regular, small group model listed above.
This is an example of how they could have leveraged the existing game systems to incorporate difficult content into the game in a very unique and fun manner (using lvl 100+ fractals for instanced difficult content).
And, for those thinking “but I don’t want to be in a guild to have to do this,” – simple solution there as well. Just make these triggers available for purchase in the guild chapterhouse in LA by individuals. Then, pretty much any organized group, as long as one person has the trigger, could start the fight up.
That (or some other creative solution) is what difficult content should have looked like in this game. It wouldn’t have segmented the population, there would be no story continuity issues, it would have allowed for the quicker implementation of raid level difficulty fights throughout the game, it would have given guilds something more to do (without excluding small groups or guildless players) and it would have been fun.
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one word: RAID’s
“Raids are our answer to what skilled PvE players have to look forward to at endgame—the ultimate test to overcome and defeat.” ~Raids
GW2 raids were a cop out carbon copy of 10 year old MMO systems (that even those games have since moved on from) and, in their current iteration, do more to hurt the game than help it. And, to the quote above, they definitely don’t accomplish that goal. The only skills they encourage are the skills to copy paste builds, memorize a dance and find exactly 10 people (god forbid you have 11 friends) willing to do the same.
There are much better ways that Arenanet could have implemented difficult content into their game – ways that would have played to the game’s strengths and encouraged community rather than what we see now. I think those ideas are worthy of discussion.
This appears to be a duplicate post – https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/A-suggestion-post-1/first#post6557379.
More fractals, less raids. It doesn’t matter wich one is easier. It matter which one is more accesible.
I just don’t feel a 5 man instance can do justice to the Prime Hologram
I agree, however, in that case I prefer it to be plainly zerg-able, not tightly coordinated 10 people challenge, simply because coordinating 10 players is a giant pain.
If its going to be hard, please make it for no more than 5 people.
Agreed. I think open world or instanced with no number restriction (thus the guild challenge idea I posted above) make the most sense. The content was originally designed that way anyway.
And, if they did bring anything like this back as 10 player raids, it would have to be much different from the raids we have now in terms of accessibility. It really wouldn’t go over very well if they brought it back and then tuned it for a small percentage of the players.
There is an old adage in marketing that no communication is, in itself, a form of communication.
Specifically one of two things happens. First, and most commonly, people will assume the company doesn’t care or has lost interest in the opinions of customers (to be clear, I do not believe this is the case with Anet). Second, people will being to fill the void with unfounded speculation (the nature abhors a vacuum concept).
In either case, whether there is any truth in the company losing interest or in any of the speculations, the result is rarely positive. It is almost always better to remain engaged with customers in proactive and interesting ways.
I think a lot of people have hit on the biggest reason this would be a bad idea – it would fragment the playerbase.
That said, I think there are some mechanics they could use to introduce harder core fights into the game that wouldnt have that effect.
The one I would advocate for is something I’ve always thought the game could use more of – waves of enemies based on the push-pull concepts they talked about pre launch. Imagine pushing a wave of centaurs out of a human settlement in Gendarren Fields and back into the caves in the west of the map. Once you’ve done that, the centaurs then try to take it back, sending wave after wave of ever more powerful enemies, even adding more fight mechanics (and greater rewards) the longer you try and hold the cave.
And, finally, they overwhelm you and push back out into the town, where the opposite takes place. The powerful bosses overtake the town, but – as time goes on, they either attrition down or, if there is no real player resistance, tire of the process and leave a basic garrison behind, starting the entire chain over again.
That is how I think they could implement hard mode encounters across the map without splitting the community (actually probably bringing them together more). I realize it probably wont happen – just my two cents on this topic.
Additionally, for world bosses, I think they need to expand the capability of the boss event flag that currently only works on triple trouble, tequatl and karka queen to include all world bosses and possibly even dynamic event chains. It would encourage more coordination and give guilds more to do together that doesnt require standing around waiting for something to happen.
Another thought is that they could even give that flag the ability to spawn harder versions of world bosses. This would let guilds organize on a single map instance prior to triggering (much like guilds do for TT now) but wouldnt exclude others from joining. There would still be a slight pug effect, but the initial organization would allow for tougher mechanics to work their way in.
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I will also say this – the excuse that they dont communicate the way they used to because of how the community responds is silly imo. These are professional game developers and a company that makes a good deal of money from the sale of the game. Surely they are professional enough to take criticism – even extreme criticism – for what it is without falling apart.
You’re asking for the one thing ArenaNet swore they would never implement into this game – a gear treadmill.
They have said many times that the current ascended power level is as strong as armor will ever be – and that was definitely the right decision.
Character progression will come from new masteries and elite specializations, not from adding a few points to power or crit rating every so often.
In a couple of weeks, it will have been FOUR YEARS since the last new PVE guild missions were added to the game. It is way past time to revitalize this (imo) core feature of the game, and here is my suggestion for doing so -
Bring back key events from living world season one as instanced guild challenges, starting with the Marionette, the Breachmaker, the Fall (and retaking of) LA), the Ancient Karka and Clockwork Chaos.
All of this content was originally designed with scaling populations in mind, something that still exists in the guild challenge system (they would probably need to balance them for smaller guilds, however).
Furthermore the instancing system used with guild challenges means the content can exist separate from the open game world – preserving the continuity of the current story.
I know it would require work, but given the interest in bringing back some of that content, the need to revitalize guild missions and the shear fun this represents, it seems like a good direction to go, imo.
ehh their biggest warr in terms of skins are armor weapons from what iv notice slide faster in the game. Also pls no these tokens is what keep the dungeons even relevant if you make it so ppl that loved that content will never find ppl to do them with. It will be the final nail on a pretty well shut coffin. The only thing i never understood was finedont support dungeons but why nerf the rewards ppl love them let them do them for as long as they like it doesnt hurt anyone.
The well shut coffin comment is dead on – to the point that I don’t think tying rewards like legendaries to them makes sense anymore.
And they have already gone down this road by adding dungeon reward tracks in PVP and WvW. As long as the ratio of relics to dungeon tokens was kept very low (something you would only do once you have a ton of extra relics), I wouldn’t see it having a huge impact on dungeon participation.
I agree that some idea as to the design direction the game will be taking in the next 12 months would be very welcome, but I’m not sure even Anet knows what that direction will be.
More than anything, imo, Anet needs to hire a game director. Colin has been gone a long time and MO always said his filling that position is temporary while they find someone new.
So, while the lack of communication is a problem predating Colin leaving, I believe the current situation is more a case of Anet being in maintenance mode while they look for a new director – something they probably desperately need right now.
I think it is a worthwhile aspirational goal, but as others have said, the limiting factor is developer resources. They have already indicated that skins take a long time to produce – and I think there are other areas of the game they would probably focus on with those resources first (additional legendary weapons, for example).
What I would recommend – as an interim mea culpa – would be a simple one to one way to trade fractal relics in for specific dungeon tokens. Since they have said they no longer plan to support dungeons, it would give people working on legendaries and skin collections a way to do supported PVE content for those rewards.
But there are 3 tiers of fractals below T4, which is where they are different than raids. Anyone can get into T1 fractals. And even though many more players could raid, they choose not to for various reasons (scared to get into it, not enough time to practice [that’s where I am right now. hopefully that will change this summer], just don’t care for raiding, etc…). For something that so many people enjoyed, I think it would be better to come back as a fractal. Plus thematically it fits better since AFAIK raids are taking place in current time whereas fractals can jump around in time freely.
Still though, if it has to come back as a raid I’d rather it be a raid than not come back at all.
To take this to the next logical step – this content could come back as raids, but utilize multiple difficulty levels similar to what we see in fractals.
However, I would propose an entirely different solution for Season 1 content like the Breachmaker and Marionette – use the guild challenge mission system to bring the content back as guild missions. Things like Save our Supplies are instanced with unlimited scaling. Given that those events were originally designed with scaling in mind, it seems like the perfect system/place for that kind of content (and it would revitalize guild missions).
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Can anyone link the CDI i can,t seem to find it.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/cdi/CDI-Guilds-Raiding/first
Worth reading. It shows a small glimpse of what raids could have been – as well as the intense community interest in things like accessibility/scaling/etc.
Actually, your XP bar stops progressing anywhere in the game, as far as I know.
Surprise, you are wrong. The raid mastery issue prevents XP bar progress only in HoT content.
I realized this after I posted. Sorry. It never really applied to me since I unlocked the raid masteries early on so I guess I just forgot.
It is a bad design decision regardless.
In all reality, no matter what people try to justify here on the forums, the issues that existed 10 months ago still exist today – probably to an even greater degree with most LFG groups expecting people to understand everything prior to joining.
Non meta groups are rare – and often strongly discouraged by the raiding community. Meters have given pugmanders a new way to justify kicking people. LI requirements are still a thing , but have been supplanted by minature or title requirements by many groups.
So, again, if you had issues with the raiding scene 10 months ago, I seriously doubt you will find it engaging and less frustrating today.
Don’t listen to this guy he doesn’t actually raid. Thief is top dps so long as you are willing to change your build as needed between power and condi.
I raid every week.
And, regardless of where you fall on this, can you realistically with a straight face say anything has changed in the past 10 months other than a slight shift in the meta with the balance patch and the introduction of a few new bosses to fight?
Either way, it’s easy enough for someone to see for themselves. There is just too much noise on the forums to make an informed decision. A week with LFG or trying to raid with builds significantly off meta is enough to prove my point. If it is important enough to people, I strongly encourage them to give it a shot.
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In all reality, no matter what people try to justify here on the forums, the issues that existed 10 months ago still exist today – probably to an even greater degree with most LFG groups expecting people to understand everything prior to joining.
Non meta groups are rare – and often strongly discouraged by the raiding community. Meters have given pugmanders a new way to justify kicking people. LI requirements are still a thing , but have been supplanted by minature or title requirements by many groups.
So, again, if you had issues with the raiding scene 10 months ago, I seriously doubt you will find it engaging and less frustrating today.
can you still earn xp and mastery shards in central tyria without doing any raids just not in maguuma. imo your complains are just complaints.
Actually, your XP bar stops progressing anywhere in the game, as far as I know.
As to the validity of the argument, keep in mind that, before people brought the issue to light on the forums, Anet didnt even let people open the mastery with the escort fight because “it wasn’t a raid boss.”
As long as they continue shortsighted designs like that (that, again, I believe would happen less with more team oversight regarding big picture issues), of course we need to keep bringing issues like this to light.
All in all, I like the idea, but I think it could potentially be implemented in a simpler way that, imo, would be easier to balance -
Instead of skill line roles, use the skill tree to let players unlock the ability to pick up a equipment in different camps, towers, keeps, etc. When a player picks up a piece of this equipment, they get a special action key with a finite number of uses. For the medic, this would be a battle rez, for the sniper, it would be a 5000 range damaging shot. For the sapper, it would allow for placing of bombs at gates. Other ideas could include the ability to repair siege (repair kit), fall off cliffs with no damage (parachute), climb back up cliffs in predetermined locations (climbing gear), etc.
They could even fold the existing supply and siege disabler abilities into such a system, making them less clunky to use.
Again, I like the original premise. I think there is some real potential to spice up WvW (assuming of course that players dont freak out over any small changes).
Its not about a single spirit shard. It is about the XP bar locking in place and not moving because you’ve done all masteries except for the ones in the raid.
That stops a player from getting hundreds or even thousands of spirit shards moving forward. I realize shards aren’t used for much right now, but if they ever are, it puts a lot of people way behind.
It was poorly thought out and illustrates a key systemic problem with the current raiding model, imo.
But again, you are assuming that someone isn’t paying attention to the larger picture, instead of someone actually making conscious decisions on the direction of the game, that incidently some people don’t like. Even if most of people don’t like the changes, doesn’t mean it lacks direction and someone isn’t paying attention to the larger picture. It just means that the direction of the game is moving on without them.
If the developers actually believe the appropriate response is “the game is moving on without them” (which I dont believe they do) then there is a deeper issue that Anet needs to be addressing.
You don’t mess with your core customers. Any good marketing pro knows that it is easier to keep existing customers than it is to bring in new ones – and that keeping those customers happy is your only real job.
And, in this case, there is, imo, definitely no reason to “move on without them.” There are some pretty basic solutions they could implement to address all issues related to this.
There is room for both – they just need to finally realize this and implement a story mode into the raid model.
How would they go about accomplishing both, hire more people, take more time in between content releases, lower the quality of what is being delivered, or deprecate more content to free up resources?
They can likely do both without expending a single additional resource – a point that has been brought up before.
Simply shift the resources that went into the challenge motes from the last raid wing (that are pretty much universally disliked anyway) into a story mode or mote system. Make the harder version the proper raid experience and use the mote system/resources to implement this greater accessibility.
Of course, Im speculating that the resources spent would be roughly the same, but I think that is justified by common sense.
I think that it is safe to say that there were minimal resources put into the challenge motes, and I think it is better for those resources to be spent on making the proper challenge the best experience that they can.
It also took 9 months for them to deliver that second raid wing with the challenge moltes, I’m pretty sure that we don’t want them taking that long between future releases or even longer.
If it took minimal resources, that’s great. I still dont think it would take more to implement what were asking for here.
And, of course it would be worth doing. There is a clear desire for this kind of accessibility – and it would solve some of the other issues related to raids (access to story, the XP advancement issue, build diversification throughout the game, etc).
To your final point – as you yourself said (in the exact same post), the motes probably took minimal resources, so it’s unlikely that they added significantly to the development timeline. It’s safe to say the same would be true of a story mode or mote system.
There is room for both – they just need to finally realize this and implement a story mode into the raid model.
How would they go about accomplishing both, hire more people, take more time in between content releases, lower the quality of what is being delivered, or deprecate more content to free up resources?
They can likely do both without expending a single additional resource – a point that has been brought up before.
Simply shift the resources that went into the challenge motes from the last raid wing (that are pretty much universally disliked anyway) into a story mode or mote system. Make the harder version the proper raid experience and use the mote system/resources to implement this greater accessibility.
Of course, Im speculating that the resources spent would be roughly the same, but I think that is justified by common sense.
It’s just yet another indicator that Anet did not think through the impact raids – in the manner they chose to implement them – would have on the game.
It is what happens when the team approach to design (or any job, for that matter) takes place without proper management or oversight. Designing good content is well and good – but someone has to be taking the bigger picture stuff – and definitely how it impacts the rest of the game – into account.
How can you think that they did no think through the impact on Raids, instead that they thought it through and went with the path that they felt was best.
Is it just because you don’t agree with what they are doing, or do you have some facts to back up the claim that they are not considering the changes that they are doing and lack direction?
Also, not getting experience once maxed was not a feature of Raids, that was already in the game. It was only changed after the fact, once all Mastery lines for the given region were unlocked would provide spirit shards. Raids are a part of the Heart of Maguuma region (both in map and masteries)
Of course I disagree with what they are doing, but that isnt the driver here. Im saying that raids cannot exist in a vacuum, as some kind of separate entity from the rest of the game.
There has to be someone paying attention to the big picture stuff – which would include things like the thousands (maybe even hundreds of thousands) who can no longer realistically gain experience from anything in the game because of a raid-related decision.
How they have chosen to implement raids has had (imo negative) impact on the game. This is just one small example.
It’s just yet another indicator that Anet did not think through the impact raids – in the manner they chose to implement them – would have on the game.
It is what happens when the team approach to design (or any job, for that matter) takes place without proper management or oversight. Designing good content is well and good – but someone has to be taking the bigger picture stuff – and definitely how it impacts the rest of the game – into account.
Anet said directly that fractals replaced dungeons as challenging five man content. Not like this is something I’ve made up.
While they replaced dungeons as the challenging content, they didn’t carry the spirit of dungeons. Raids did.
Except they didn’t. Dungeons had multiple paths, raids don’t. You could do story mode and see at least the inside the dungeon, even if you didn’t see every boss. Not true for raids.
Very much this.
A range of experiences within the game mode – a way for more people to enjoy the content, and for the content to link with the narrative/experience/feel of the rest of the game — that is the piece missing from raids.
Challenging content should be a part of the game – but not when it serves to exclude people from the experience/story/etc based on how they choose to build and play their character.
There is room for both – they just need to finally realize this and implement a story mode into the raid model (something players have been asking for since ANet first used the word raid, btw).
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Im very glad the game gives you that opportunity. But, the idea that the experience is anywhere near that easy for someone coming in fresh with a build that is significantly outside of the meta – that isn’t as supported by the math – simply doesnt hold up when put to the test in game.
I strongly encourage anyone feeling differently to put that to the test in game. Take the character you most enjoy and just see how you are treated by pugs for one week – or, alternatively, pull together a group of like minded individuals and see how the raids feel. I think most of us already know how that will work out for 9/10 players.
That is actually false – well for the most part.
If your objective is to learn raids – your build is not that important. The important part is learning the mechanics. If you and every memeber of the group knows the mechanics very good – the build is just secondary. You will run into the enrage timer probably but if you are really good at the mechanics youll find a way to still do it.Its true that pugs won’t be patient with you if you don’t run meta. But pugging isnt the best way to learn raids. Better join a training guild or raiding guild
In almost every case, the first thing “training” guilds do is push players toward meta builds – which is pretty much the opposite of the points we’re trying to make here. It’s about realistically (important word) opening the experience to more playstyles and builds.
This isnt about hard walls or extremes. It is about degrees and the point at which content is unnecessarily restrictive and creates a Stepford Wife syndrome in the game – one in which every player either plays to the mold or gets left behind.
Ehh no you are not blocked from it you or they simply don’t choose to get into it. Look, i would be perfectly fine with them having an ez mode. I understand not everyone has the time to train for hours, they simply want to spend their time doing something fun for them.
But this isnt wow or any other raiding centric game the raid team is small and the resources limited and i will not accept lowering the bar of quality and experience they provide for some easy mode.Also, what do you want from raids? Is it the lore or the experience/excitement players feel when doing them? The first i can understand you want to simply experience the story and ok i suppose that a good enough reason for ez mode but the latter its a nono, you will never get the experience ppl have been praising the raid team for with anything other than the original. Defenately not something easier.
Thank you for making a level headed argument.
You make a good point about the experience – yes, it would differ from the hardcore experience simply by the nature of difficult vs easy.
I still think it is worth doing for several reasons. As you note, the story experience is one, but it isnt the only one.
Another is to keep a healthy interest in raids long term. When the carrot of legendary armor comes and goes, I foresee the developers having a hard time with numbers (unless they add a ton of new unique rewards, which would be a very bad idea). Raids will need more players simply to maintain justification for ongoing development.
Yet another reason is to let the raid writers out of the box. Right now, any interesting story in raids will be seen as a negative by many in the community. Opening up the experience lifts that restriction. The narrative could then go in pretty much any direction, opening up greater experience and making them feel more interesting.
And, the biggest for me, is that it evens the playing field for those who play less around the numbers/math of the game and more around the unique feel of their character. Yes the raid can be beaten in blues and greens by most classes when played by people who have mastered the fight, but that is the exception, not the rule (and I think the people saying that know that very well). Tiered difficulties give players the ability to play as the hero they want to be rather than the one Anet forces them to be.
Finally, since it was brought up earlier – it is something the community has asked for since the developers first said the word raid. Go back and read the CDI with Chris Whitesides. The top three most requested features (by a wide margin) throughout that thread were tiered difficulty, scaling and accessibility. The fact that there are only a few of us still making noise on this subforum has more to do with being belittled and browbeaten (just look at some of the posts on this very page – if they havent been deleted – for prime examples) than it does with a lack of desire for this kind of content (for another example, take a look at news sites like massivelyop and mmorpg – and other forums like reddit – there is a much different feel to any raid related discussion there).
Again, thanks for remaining productive and civil. I continue to believe this is a conversation worth having – and hope it is one devs are paying attention to.
The only way i would agree to ez mode raids would be if li didnt drop, if the unique raid skins also didnt drop and magetide shards. You can still get all the other loot, minis etc (minis are your only source of shards) and regular asc weapons and armor chest with the default skin. I would also argue that releasing the ez mode a few weeks later from the actual release is also a good idea.
And of the fact that no quality will drop from the actual raids.
I believe what i suggested here is reasonable enough no?
But yes all in all i agree that because you simply dont play the game as much you should still have the choice of what content you would like to tackle.
I think that all sounds like a fair way to approach it.
The only thing I would add is potentially still allow magentite shards to drop (at a reduced rate), but have pnly the vanilla skin ascended boxes available at the vendor – reserving the special skins, etkittenil a player beats the content at the higher difficulty. That would give players another path to gearing for the actually difficult raid versions. Just a thought though – it really is more about accessibility, imo.
the introduction of Raids is where GW2 lost its identity. welcome back holy trinity.
In fairness, they seem to be backing off reliance on tank/healer/dps, even in raids. Most fights no longer require a tank.
That said, raids – in the form they chose to introduce them – were definitely the primary catalyst behind the shift in how the game plays and is perceived (and not in a good way).
Specifically, raids have moved endgame to a more mathematical, rather than character or experience based, style of play. While some people enjoy that, it most definitely isn’t what we saw in the first 4 years of the game. For many, that is depressing.
I know a lot of people will say that “you just dont have to do raids,” but I think that is shortsighted. As I explained above, players need to feel like the hero of the story. When you take that away from them, the game is going to feel less exciting – thus the “identity change.”
(and, to anticipate the typical response – it has been taken away unless you are willing to compromise how you enjoy playing – basically the core identity of your character)
And yet, it has been proven that it is not as mathematical as you make it out to be, see people low-manning or running in Green gear. Yes, they have mastered the mechanics of the raid, as well as their class, that is the point. You are intended to master your class and the mechanics of the raid, to beat it.
Are you suggesting people shouldn’t have to master their class (however they choose to play it) and master the mechanics?
It is mathematical, its just that the required minimum numbers arent as high as some believe.
Thank you, this was a better way of phrasing what I was attempting to get across. There is still math, but the required numbers are lower than people believe.
This is a fair point.
That said, I think there is still a point where the math becomes untenable for many players – where it overshadows the experience of the game.
I realize that isnt the case for everyone – that many enjoy the calculator style play that is common with min maxing and raids.
But, it isn’t what we came to expect from GW2. It shifted the feel of the game and, while that is mainly limited to raids, it has a affect on the feel of the entire end game as players feel excluded unless they shift how they like to play. That, for me, is at the heart of the identify shift and is something I think they need to address.
Who says you need to enjoy calculator style play and min max to enjoy raids in this game?
Raids are easy enough in this game that they can already easily be enjoyed by most groups. Those that want to min-max to the teeth, down to the person that wants to play his tank Dragonhunter and protect his allies from harm. Both groups still have to understand the mechanics of the fight to pass, both have an equal chance of success. One group will probably clear the content faster than the other, but at the end of the day, does it matter how fast content is completed, if you are having fun?
Once again, you’re coming in with the perspective of someone who has, most likely, mastered the raids already. You put in the math (or more likely, copy/pasted a build from somewhere) – and now that you know the fights backwards and forwards, could do them on pretty much anything.
Im very glad the game gives you that opportunity. But, the idea that the experience is anywhere near that easy for someone coming in fresh with a build that is significantly outside of the meta – that isn’t as supported by the math – simply doesnt hold up when put to the test in game.
I strongly encourage anyone feeling differently to put that to the test in game. Take the character you most enjoy and just see how you are treated by pugs for one week – or, alternatively, pull together a group of like minded individuals and see how the raids feel. I think most of us already know how that will work out for 9/10 players.
As Ive stated before, there will always be people that wont get this point.
We need to step out of our “sides” and boxed in perspectives and look at this issue from the larger game wide point of view.
And, yes, forced was probably too strong a word, but the idea that raids offer reasonable accessibility for both a zerker fresh air elementalist and a hammer scrapper or monster inspired necromancer simply doesn’t hold water in the actual game. If anyone just getting into raids needs evidence of that, just go and try to pug for a few days or try to form a group of like minded individuals. I strongly encourage them to try – but I think most of us can guess the results in 9/10 cases already.
the introduction of Raids is where GW2 lost its identity. welcome back holy trinity.
In fairness, they seem to be backing off reliance on tank/healer/dps, even in raids. Most fights no longer require a tank.
That said, raids – in the form they chose to introduce them – were definitely the primary catalyst behind the shift in how the game plays and is perceived (and not in a good way).
Specifically, raids have moved endgame to a more mathematical, rather than character or experience based, style of play. While some people enjoy that, it most definitely isn’t what we saw in the first 4 years of the game. For many, that is depressing.
I know a lot of people will say that “you just dont have to do raids,” but I think that is shortsighted. As I explained above, players need to feel like the hero of the story. When you take that away from them, the game is going to feel less exciting – thus the “identity change.”
(and, to anticipate the typical response – it has been taken away unless you are willing to compromise how you enjoy playing – basically the core identity of your character)
And yet, it has been proven that it is not as mathematical as you make it out to be, see people low-manning or running in Green gear. Yes, they have mastered the mechanics of the raid, as well as their class, that is the point. You are intended to master your class and the mechanics of the raid, to beat it.
Are you suggesting people shouldn’t have to master their class (however they choose to play it) and master the mechanics?
It is mathematical, its just that the required minimum numbers arent as high as some believe.
Thank you, this was a better way of phrasing what I was attempting to get across. There is still math, but the required numbers are lower than people believe.
This is a fair point.
That said, I think there is still a point where the math becomes untenable for many players – where it overshadows the experience of the game.
I realize that isnt the case for everyone – that many enjoy the calculator style play that is common with min maxing and raids.
But, it isn’t what we came to expect from GW2. It shifted the feel of the game and, while that is mainly limited to raids, it has an affect on the feel of the entire end game as players feel excluded unless they shift how they like to play. That, for me, is at the heart of the identify shift and is something I think they need to address.
(edited by Blaeys.3102)
Ehh no you are not blocked from it you or they simply don’t choose to get into it. Look, i would be perfectly fine with them having an ez mode. I understand not everyone has the time to train for hours, they simply want to spend their time doing something fun for them.
But this isnt wow or any other raiding centric game the raid team is small and the resources limited and i will not accept lowering the bar of quality and experience they provide for some easy mode.Also, what do you want from raids? Is it the lore or the experience/excitement players feel when doing them? The first i can understand you want to simply experience the story and ok i suppose that a good enough reason for ez mode but the latter its a nono, you will never get the experience ppl have been praising the raid team for with anything other than the original. Defenately not something easier.
Thank you for making a level headed argument.
You make a good point about the experience – yes, it would differ from the hardcore experience simply by the nature of difficult vs easy.
I still think it is worth doing for several reasons. As you note, the story experience is one, but it isnt the only one.
Another is to keep a healthy interest in raids long term. When the carrot of legendary armor comes and goes, I foresee the developers having a hard time with numbers (unless they add a ton of new unique rewards, which would be a very bad idea). Raids will need more players simply to maintain justification for ongoing development.
Yet another reason is to let the raid writers out of the box. Right now, any interesting story in raids will be seen as a negative by many in the community. Opening up the experience lifts that restriction. The narrative could then go in pretty much any direction, opening up greater experience and making them feel more interesting.
And, the biggest for me, is that it evens the playing field for those who play less around the numbers/math of the game and more around the unique feel of their character. Yes the raid can be beaten in blues and greens by most classes when played by people who have mastered the fight, but that is the exception, not the rule (and I think the people saying that know that very well). Tiered difficulties give players the ability to play as the hero they want to be rather than the one Anet forces them to be.
Finally, since it was brought up earlier – it is something the community has asked for since the developers first said the word raid. Go back and read the CDI with Chris Whitesides. The top three most requested features (by a wide margin) throughout that thread were tiered difficulty, scaling and accessibility. The fact that there are only a few of us still making noise on this subforum has more to do with being belittled and browbeaten (just look at some of the posts on this very page – if they havent been deleted – for prime examples) than it does with a lack of desire for this kind of content (for another example, take a look at news sites like massivelyop and mmorpg – and other forums like reddit – there is a much different feel to any raid related discussion there).
Again, thanks for remaining productive and civil. I continue to believe this is a conversation worth having – and hope it is one devs are paying attention to.
(edited by Blaeys.3102)
I think a lot of people miss the point -
This has never been about difficult or easy. It is about adding to raids – not detracting from them. It is about expanding the experience of raids to a wider range of players – something that would be good for everyone, imo.
Not really.
If expanding comes at the cost of the identity then it’s not worth the cost, nor is it good for everyone. It’s just good for those who didn’t care to join in on the original difficulty level.
I dont think raids have been around long enough to say they have an established identity in the game. As with all things when they are first introduced, you have continually evaluate what works and what doesn’t, as well as the impact on the bigger picture.
While raids are accomplishing their goal – bringing more challenging content to the game – I think it is fair to say they are having a negative impact on portion of the playerbase. Whether you agree with the logic or not, many players are feeling disenfranchised from the game – they no longer feel like the hero of the story. Without having to compromise on their character’s identity (build and playstyle), they are essentially blocked from a fun piece of the end game experience.
With that in mind, it makes sense that ArenaNet would work to develop a solution – one that retains the integrity of the challenge while still offering the players I describe above the experiences associated with the content (again, experience being a key word – a cleared instance, NPC text or youtube video does nothing to create that for a player).
I know there are people that will never accept this. I would strongly encourage them to take a step back and look at it from a larger, gamewide perspective.
(edited by Blaeys.3102)
the introduction of Raids is where GW2 lost its identity. welcome back holy trinity.
In fairness, they seem to be backing off reliance on tank/healer/dps, even in raids. Most fights no longer require a tank.
That said, raids – in the form they chose to introduce them – were definitely the primary catalyst behind the shift in how the game plays and is perceived (and not in a good way).
Specifically, raids have moved endgame to a more mathematical, rather than character or experience based, style of play. While some people enjoy that, it most definitely isn’t what we saw in the first 4 years of the game. For many, that is depressing.
I know a lot of people will say that “you just dont have to do raids,” but I think that is shortsighted. As I explained above, players need to feel like the hero of the story. When you take that away from them, the game is going to feel less exciting – thus the “identity change.”
(and, to anticipate the typical response – it has been taken away unless you are willing to compromise how you enjoy playing – basically the core identity of your character)
Unless they have two raid teams working concurrently, I dont really expect to see a raid packaged with the next expansion. Instead, I suspect the raid to be timed as closely to the expansion drop as possible – most likely coming a month or two after the actual expansion drop.
As far as difficulty, I don’t expect – nor want – a drop in difficulty at all. I do think they are are, or will soon be, exploring ways to add more accessibility to the raid experience – which probably means some kind of easy mode or flex system. It really is the most logical solution to the current issues.
Or you know those people could form a group, with other people that don’t care what build is being run, and take on that challenge.
I run my necromancer, power or condi, but I adapt to the situation and I can play the class well enough that I am consistently towards the top of my group in dps (the role I am there to fulfill). So yes, they can group up, and go work on killing that boss. They may fail for hours at a time, but they can improve and eventually kill that boss (with 2 maybe 3 exceptions, out of 13 potential bosses). The point is, that they can run what ever they want, and if they improve enough, they can beat it.
Maybe that is the underlying issue, people don’t want to improve their gameplay, or feel that they have to improve to complete said boss, which is honestly just sad.
Also, anyone that joins a “Team” based event, and doesn’t wish to adapt to the needs of the team, isn’t a team player.
TL:DR: the only thing preventing those players from enjoying the content, is themselves.
Once again, you are looking at it from only one side of the issue. I strongly suggest trying to think about it from a big picture perspective.
Yes, groups that have mastered the raid can pretty much bring whatever they want. To say that is true of everyone else is shortsighted, imo.
The point is, you have people disillusioned with the game for the reasons I list above. That is an issue that the developers need to acknowledge and address.
No one is advocating for the removal or even watering down of difficult content. That is not the argument here. This is about developing (adding to existing) content that appeals to more people and (VERY IMPORTANTLY) doesn’t actively damage how people perceive their characters in game.
(edited by Blaeys.3102)
Since when did a vocal minorities voice about excluding themselves from content matter to a developer?
Since a small vocal minority that didn’t want to play the existing content persuaded Anet to introduce Raids, i’d say.
We had a CDI that proves the opposite of this point.
I would recommend going back and reading through that CDI. What most people asked for or expected from raids isnt what they delivered.
It didn’t fit any single person’s idea of a raid from that thread, that’s true.
But they did deliver the content. It is instanced, difficult content that requires coordination and an above party-sized squad.
They actually held back a lot, there were definitely some requests for 20-man raids.
There were some really good and creative ideas in that CDI – and a clear desire by many for things like tiered levels/variable challenges/high accessibility across the board/etc. I am constantly saddened that they chose to carbon copy the raid model from other games (actually from other games 10 years ago) rather than play to this game’s strengths and develop something unique and fun.
The CDI definitely wasn’t a clarion call for raids as we have them today, as you try to posit above.
I think a lot of people miss the point -
This has never been about difficult or easy. It is about adding to raids – not detracting from them. It is about expanding the experience of raids to a wider range of players – something that would be good for everyone, imo.
Here is the real issue as I see it.
When they added raids with a singular, restrictive mode, they essentially forced (or strongly pushed) people to conform to playing that mode one way.
For people that treat the game as a mathematical sport – min/maxing and constantly grinding for new stat sets – this was a non-issue.
But for many of those that play the game for the experience of being a hero in a fantasy world, it breaks the illusion that they matter in the game.
- That Nomad Guardian that acts as the bulwark between evil and good – that uses his shield to protect his friends – he has no place in raids.
- That monster-inspired Necromancer, swinging his sword and chilling his foes – he is a joke next to the “real monsters.”
- That tricksy mesmer using illusions to misdirect, confuse and torment his opponents – he is nothing compared to his boon sharing bot friends.
- That revenenant channeling the power of Tyria’s greatest heroes – he might as well be channeling Rachel Ray.
- The scrapper powering up his hammer to shred through his opponents – again, no real power at all.
- (and pretty much any other build that isn’t close to the “meta”)
Before, even with the existence of lvl 100 fractals, these players could feel like the hero – they could still face down Mai Trin (at a lower level) with their friends, achieving that feeling that they were a hero in the world of Tyria – that they repelled the threat.
Raids – because they have an single, restrictive tier, change that.
The difficulty of raids are nothing more than this simple equation:
- Copy/Paste Build + Memorize/Mimic dance = dead raid boss
They aren’t really difficult – as long as you are willing to compromise the identity of your character. What they are is restrictive and sucking the fun out of the Tyrian experience for any that don’t want to conform to cookie cutter builds and playstyles.
People don’t want to play as the hero that faces everything down except for XYZ threat. And many don’t want to cater to the stepford wife style that the current raiding model pushes on people. These are the players most affected by raids – that are growing more and more disillusioned with the game.
That is why the simple addition of raids (with a singular difficulty mode) has such a negative impact on the game’s identity – because it damages the player’s self identity. It breaks the illusion of being the hero in a game that is all about being the hero.
(edited by Blaeys.3102)
Since when did a vocal minorities voice about excluding themselves from content matter to a developer?
Since a small vocal minority that didn’t want to play the existing content persuaded Anet to introduce Raids, i’d say.
We had a CDI that proves the opposite of this point.
I would recommend going back and reading through that CDI. What most people asked for or expected from raids isnt what they delivered.
The issue transcends raids. We don’t really have a roadmap for any aspect of the game.
And I don’t really expect one. About two years ago, Anet adopted a communication strategy where they only really talk about content as it’s being released – to avoid disappointing people with predictions that either take longer than planned or never see the light of day.
And six wings per year would be ridiculous given the current model. That would outpace living story and fractals and make raids the biggest part of the game – a very bad idea given the divisive opinions and feelings regarding raids right now.
I want programmable golems – either something simple like our own version of the dps golem from the raid area or fun little golems that run around the guild hall.
Just adding some more missions probably doesn’t require nearly the same coordination of artists, map and graphical designers, UI people, crafting designers, programmers, content editors, AI development, etc.
The problem is, without some kind of dedicated approach, or direction from above, nothing is getting done. Again, May 28th will mark FOUR YEARS since the last guild mission was added.
I really wish there were a guilds subforum. This is an important topic for some and it gets drowned out – as do most topics – in the general information area.