Guild Wars 2

Sykper.6583:

I’ll only agree for a Raid story mode under the conditions that:

- It doesn’t impact raid development at all, meaning that no raid dev resources / content resources like art, music, map dev teams get pulled over to it. This will likely take the form of taking teams from the open world and living story development and push those releases back, asking SPvP and WvW teams to come in on this would be toxic.

- Rewards are negligible, champion bags, maybe a few raid shards per wing completion but nothing like the actual raid loot or Armor achievements. Asking for anything more is clearly showing the actual motive behind players who are interested in the story, versus those who maliciously just want the rewards and want to drive a mode into the ground.

Definitely agree that the reward needs to be considerably less.

As for where the resources come from, Anet should do whatever makes the most sense. As I’ve stated before, I think (pure opinion) that they could do it for basically the same effort/resources used when they developed the challenge motes for wing 4. I would think the most logical move would be to transition those resources to meet this goal. But, again, that is an internal workload decision and is impacted by a lot more than we probably know.

As for the number of people raiding and how happy Anet is, it’s important to remember that it isnt just about the number of current raiders (which I suspect is considerably down based on what I see in game – with a small spike coming next week because of leg armor – and then dropping off hard as raiders tire of the content).

Another important factor they need to consider is player and public opinion regarding the game. A lot of people came to GW2 (myself included) specifically because they didn’t use the same tired old end game model from other MMOs. Fair or not, how they handle raids affects how the game feels internally and appears externally – and, based on what we see outside of this subforum, that perception isn’t very positive right now.

Dominik.5162:

Blaeys.3102:

maddoctor.2738:

An alternative solution is to do exactly what Challenge Motes do but in reverse:
Remove a mechanic or tweak one mechanic (usually of the last phase of an encounter) and keep everything else the same.

And I agree. Tweaking or removing mechanics is the right way to implement a story mote – possibly with some tweaking of the numbers, but that is a balance thing they would need to do regardless.

It is actually not that easy.
Adding a mechanic and making an existing mechanic harder is considerably easier than removing one.
Given that i don’t know how Anets engine works, but i wouldn’t be suprised, if it is almost double the work they’d have to do.

Also i am pretty sure people were not happy with how motes in raids work, because you could only do them once or you’d only get rewards once from the achievments, there was no incentive to do the harder mote again if you already did so for achievments and titles.

Also taking ressources away from the current raid team to cater to people it isn’t even intended for is not acceptable.

Something almost everyone seems to forget (even some of the developers) – those “people it isn’t even intended for” you reference are players – players who would enjoy experiencing (EXPERIENCING – not just reading about or touring a cleared instance) the final act in the Saul D’alessio story – who would enjoy new fights and hurdles to overcome (even if they arent at the same difficulty level as the challenging version) – who would enjoy the experience of new content with guildees.

So, this idea that a story mode or multiple mode system would add nothing to the game – it is the one argument I dismiss outright, because I have seen the demand and I have heard people ask for it time and again (and I have seen it work in other games, no matter what people want to say about those games).

So, while the original press release may have focused on a small corner of the game population, it doesn’t mean that the content cannot evolve and grow based on player (customer) demand. That is the point of this continual (2 years now) conversation.

maddoctor.2738:

An alternative solution is to do exactly what Challenge Motes do but in reverse:
Remove a mechanic or tweak one mechanic (usually of the last phase of an encounter) and keep everything else the same.

And I agree. Tweaking or removing mechanics is the right way to implement a story mote – possibly with some tweaking of the numbers, but that is a balance thing they would need to do regardless.

maddoctor.2738:

Where is this plan on how this multi mode access would work?
Negative comments and vague comments without substance cannot in any way influence a developer. Coherent and well formed ideas and suggestions can.
You can find more info about it in this sticky thread:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/How-to-Give-Good-Feedback-1/first#post6372017
It’s sticky for a reason but you rarely find any good feedback in these threads.

Is “I hate Raids”, “I want multiple modes for Raids”, “I want a tutorial mode”, “I want an easy mode for Raids”, or any comments you see outside of this subform good feedback? No, it’s not. Read that sticky and you can see that almost none follow the guidelines of good feedback.

It’s right here:

Give details and examples: Not a generic “I don’t like this!” but a specific “I think this could be improved by {suggestions}.” And if someone asks a question about the topic, don’t just answer it — explain why you answered the way you did.

When someone wants a change they should at least form up some plan on how it would work, and then accept any arguments against that idea and try to counter them.

I think youre being a little unfair here. We have talked many times about many different options as potential solutions – and I think you know that.

Most recently, we have discussed the idea of using the mote system to implement story mote versions of the fights in much the same way challenge motes were implemented in the last raid. It is highly unlikely such a system would take significantly more resources than the challenge motes did. The challenge motes werent well received anyway. Why not expend that energy on something people are actually asking for?

Just because every single response doesnt mention those types of solutions doesnt mean they arent productive – and it defintely doesnt mean they are somehow against the forum TOS (and I am pretty sure you know that as well). This most recent discussion – about encouraging people to look at these outside sources – is simply meant to reinforce the need for some kind of solution – a solution that could take many different forms.

There are also what I believe to be some amazing recommendations and ideas in the original CDI about raids.

That could be an entirely separate instance, the story mote idea I have championed many times or something completely different (Anet is very creative). The point is that this is something many would like to see.

And talking about that need is definitely something worthy of discussion on the forums. It isnt about being negative – in fact its the opposite. It is about wanting to change the game in what many would see as a positive way.

And, ONCE AGAIN, I dont hate raids (and I dont see many actually saying that).

NikeEU.7690:

So no, I don’t want people with the narrowest, most myopic, most exclusionary view of fun and good gameplay imaginable having any influence whatsoever.

This is how many people see the hardcore raiding community in GW2 – as myopic and exclusionary.

And guess what, they are wrong as well. The reality is somewhere in the middle. People have to accept that different people play the game for very different reasons. And none of those are the “wrong” way to play, even when it comes to something like raids.

The whole purpose of multiple modes is to address that idea of different types of playstyles. And it is not only important from an accessibility perspective. It is needed, imo, to ensure that the integrity of harder modes remains intact – giving developers free rein to make blistering hard content without having to water it down (because the accessibility piece is covered in a different mode).

The comments of posters on their facebook page – in online media like Massively – on Reddit -etc – it is all important (but, at the same time, has to be looked at as part of bigger whole and with a realistic outlook). Those are customers and potential customers. While some are reactionary, inflammatory and irrational (as are some on these forums), that doesn’t discredit them all. Some are just looking for a fun experience in raids – one they cannot find in the current raid model.

For all of those complaining that this topic has somehow run its course or that it isnt worth continuing, I would recommend that they (and ArenaNet) take a close look at pretty much every mention of GW2 raids outside of the forums – GW2 Facebook, MassivelyOP, MMORPG, etc. Read the comments sections on articles, Facebook etc, pretty much every time raids are brought up.

ArenaNet has a negative perception issue when it comes to raids. A lot of people see raids as inaccessible. Whether you think that is accurate or not in game is immaterial. The perception (which I actually do agree with) is there and it is very evident.

In my opinion, raids need a multi mode access model to address these perceptions (which again, I believe are based on in game realities). And, yes, in many cases it would do exactly that (or, at minimum, show players that Anet is paying attention to them).
Regardless of what happens in game, however, the persistent negative comments every time raids are mentioned outside of this subforum show that this is a topic that not only needs to continue – it is one Anet needs to pay close attention to.

zoomborg.9462:

Over the course of time story mode has become a meme rather than a point of discussion.

Only to those trying to shut the conversation down.

There are still people willing to have real discussions – on both sides.

It is telling, imo, how many people resort to ridicule and try to belittle people they disagree with rather than enter to any kind of real discussion (not saying that is true of everyone).

People need to realize were not in some kind of contest or war with one another. The goal is adult reasonable discussion about a topic where some disagree.

Fatalyz.7168:

Do you have any proof that the team that did the armor was a shared resources?

I’m also fairly positive that Anet has a very clear idea of the “big picture”, what they are working on, and what they are working towards. You may not see the big picture the same way that they do, it obviously doesn’t jive with what you want it to be, but that doesn’t mean that they don’t know what the “big picture” is.

I think we all know they likely were shared resources, but even if they weren’t, they definitely should be. New armor skins, clipping and quality of life changes like swappable runes are not things uniquely desired by raiders.

There are finite resources within a company. Delegation of those resources is a reflection of what the company sees as important, and just as much, what they see as unimportant. Im simply commenting on how I perceive that delegation of resources and how I believe it doesn’t mesh with earlier communication regarding where raids fall in the game.

ButterPeanut.9746:

While this is true, and I’m not necessarily accusing you or the OP in this post of doing this, but it is absolutely infuriating the number of people who use the word “can’t” when talking about raid accessibility.

You are right in that we all need to stop talking in absolutes. Most of what we are all (on both sides) is saying is definitely opinion and comes from our individual perspectives, both in game and out.

I will try to stop using words like can’t or anything else that implies an absolute barrier to entry.

But I definitely still see the need for greater accessibility when it comes to raiding – and I believe a story mode of some kind is the best way to do that without watering down the challenging raid modes.

Fatalyz.7168:

Ashen.2907:

Fatalyz.7168:

Ashen.2907:

A statement that is not true is only a lie if the person making it knows at the time that it is false.

If you honestly believe what you are saying then you are not lying even if you are wrong. If I ask someone about their health and they say that it is good, when unknown to them they have an undiagnosed tumor, they are not lying, just unfortunately mistaken.

And do you think Anet made a false statement intentionally or otherwise? Regarding resources used in Raids? Personally, I don’t. I feel that they made a statement, and have kept to it.

I do not think that they made a false statement in this matter. If they perceive the amount of resources, total number of devs, assigned to raid development to be small then they did not lie. Of course someone else could say that they believe that 5 devs (or however many) is a large resource allocation.

I believe that, if the total number of raid devs is 20 or less, the percentage of the GW2 total number of devs is not more than 10% (if I remember the total correctly). Ten percent is significant, but not what I would consider inappropriately large for content that may very well be enjoyed by a similar percentage of players. Particularly if raid dev innovations make their way into other aspects of the game.

I agree. My statement about lying was more directed to one individual who seems to be presenting arguments in a manner that makes it look like Anet is intentionally misleading their community (without any hard evidence), when I do not believe that they are.

You’re making a semantics argument about the definition of “lying” when I never even said I believed they were lying about anything.

In fact, I have always found Anet to be fairly ethical and up front in their communication.

Im saying that when Anet tried to reassure everyone that resource allocation related to raids wouldn’t have an impact on the rest of the game, they didn’t really think the statement through – thinking in terms of content development and the small raid team but not acknowledging things like this (or story team resources).

So, yes – from an instance and fight development perspective, there has probably been little impact on development outside of the raid team. But when you start looking at the obviously shared resources (such as design and story, most likely), the statement no longer holds water.

I don’t think they were lying, but I also don’t think that the people making the statements were looking at the big picture (a mistake that Anet seems to have made a lot in the past 1.5 years, imo).

Rising Dusk.2408:

Blaeys.3102:

But we all need to do a better job of not belittling the opinions of others (and we all have to accept that our personal stances are just that – opinions).

The real problem with threads like these is that no one is going to change their mind over these discussions. There’s nothing new that can be added to this topic, and it has been discussed a thousand times before (oftentimes with the same people present). As a result of all of this, about the only thing that these threads really tell ANet reliably is that people are divided on the topic.

And that is perfectly fine. People are welcome to their opinions.

For those that do not feel there is anything more to say – there is no one forcing them to continue discussing it.

But at the same time, the fact that those people no longer want to discuss it doesn’t mean the conversation has to stop. It is a topic many, including myself, are still interested in discussing, even if there is some repetition in that dialogue.

For me, that is partially to make sure the topic remains relevant and visible to both the community and Anet, but it is also to make sure anyone new to the forums sees the conversation and can weigh in with their opinions.

It remains an important topic for some of us.

The one to Rule.2593:

everyone has a chance to play anything, you choose not to.

They choose not to because they do not enjoy how that content is designed in game.

When that is the case, people can either accept it and move on – or they can bring it to the attention of the developers and make the argument for change.

A big reason the forums are here are so that people can talk about – and even fight for – what they would like to see changed.

So it isnt always about simply having the chance to play it. It can just as easily be about letting the developers know when content is unsatisfactory for us and how we would like to see it changed.

After two years, it is very telling that this particular topic and request for change seems to still naturally pop up on the forums on seemingly regular basis. Anet needs to be paying attention to it.

TexZero.7910:

Yeah, im pretty much done with the asinine logic being presented here by the we want an easy mode crowd.

I’m sorry but when i’ve raided with people who have some serious debilitating conditions and those who can’t make a set schedule all the “excuses” being used are laughable.

It’s time to stop making excuses and just raid. Seriously.

And again to address the topic properly, i do agree there’s a problem with group finding but this is symptomatic of the entire games base design. Remember LFG didn’t even exist at launch (for all you saying how casual this game is). I’ve see better casual designs from F2P (cashgrabs) that have better Guild/Group finding tools than this game has current and had prior to its inception.

If you do not want to be a part of the conversation, that is fine.

But we all need to do a better job of not belittling the opinions of others (and we all have to accept that our personal stances are just that – opinions).

Again, I accept that – from perspectives like yours – there is little issue here. Truth is, I play the game differently than you do. And that is true of many others as well. A single raid mode doesnt work for everyone. It isnt about excuses. It is about legitimately believing multiple modes would improve the game for those people (while having no real impact on how people like you enjoy the game).

But, I respect that you feel differently. I even respect that you feel there is no issue here at all.

I respectfully disagree and definitely see the need to continue making that point on the forums.

Ashen.2907:

They did not downplay the effort though. Saying that the team was small does not mean that the project was effortless. A small team working their tails off, putting large numbers of hours, tons of work into the project meets Anet’s description in my opinion.

They cannot brag about the hundreds of hours spent on fixing clipping just for legendary armor and at the same time expect us to believe the use of those resources didnt detract from projects that could have been used in other parts of the game (for instance, in fixing clipping on armor sets that have been in the game for 4 years).

Rewriting the game code to address runes on legendary armor – while (most likely) not touching legendary weapons; spending two years on developing the aesthetics of legendary armor while skins in the rest of the game dry up to a trickle. There has definitely been an impact on resources and the rest of the game.

They cannot expect us to give validity to their reassurances about less impact on the game when they put out articles like the one they did yesterday. It defies logic.

Harper.4173:

You do realize that one raider is equal to many casuals in terms of hours put in the game right?

I don’t think you can say this with certainty at all.

But I do think it illustrates a very important point about this topic. People see things like the above statement to be true because it is from their perspective – among the people they play with.

We all come at topics like this colored by our in game experiences. It is one of the great things about GW2 – that many different playstyles can enjoy the same content (pretty much gamewide) even when they approach the game with very different priorities.

Raids are taking the game away from that ideal – that is a problem, imo.

Fatalyz.7168:

Blaeys.3102:

And, to add insult to injury, they have the gall to say that raids do not take resources from other parts of the game.

One other thing I wanted to pick apart from your statement. Do you have a source or any kind of evidence that Raids have taken resources from development in other areas of the game, or are you just making an assumption here?

If you were lied to (ie you have proof that they have done other than what they claimed), or you feel like they are misleading you, why do you support their game?

During the first AMA related to raids, they bragged about how small the team was and that the process was so efficient that it had little impact on resources that could have been used elsewhere in the game. Im just pointing out the anecdotal evidence to the contrary. They can’t downplay the effort in one breath and turn around and talk about how much work they put into it with another.

Also – I have never once said Anet lied about anything – and obviously I still love this game. It is why I fight so hard on topics like this. If I didn’t care or didn’t plan to keep playing, I wouldn’t care enough to continue in these conversations.

Fatalyz.7168:

Blaeys.3102:

Heibi brings up a good point. One of the most useful facets of legendary armor is that it empowers players who regularly jump between content types such as WvW, raids, fractals, etc and often need to change stats accordingly.

The idea that raiders somehow benefit more from this feature is flawed. The quest for legendary armor should have spanned multiple game modes in much the same way legendary weapons were first intended to do.

I didn’t see anywhere where Anet or anyone else thought that raiders benefit more from having legendary armor than any other group.

While Legendary armor could have filled that place that weapons were supposed to (covering multiple game modes), they were chosen as the ultimate reward for raiding, so of course the collections for it are going to focus on things that are raid specific. There are also a lot of things that are not raid specific, and must be collected through other means.

One would think that they will have another armor set planned for the future, preferrably obtained from another game mode, with an emphasis on that game mode.

So, at best, 2 years from now, we will have legendary armor for a different game mode.

This was a bad decision on Anet’s part and one that – if you look at their facebook page, articles about this announcement, etc, that definitely isn’t going over well with players, fans and potential future players.

My stance on raids is pretty clear at this point (not against them, just not a fan of how they are now). They need to right this ship before it sinks their game (I know that sounds fatalistic, and it wont kill the game, but they do have a big problem here – just hoping they have their eyes open to see it).

Heibi brings up a good point. One of the most useful facets of legendary armor is that it empowers players who regularly jump between content types such as WvW, raids, fractals, etc and often need to change stats accordingly.

The idea that raiders somehow benefit more from this feature is flawed. The quest for legendary armor should have spanned multiple game modes in much the same way legendary weapons were first intended to do.

They were a huge waste of time and developmental resources that could have gone to more popular and desired features in the game.

According to this article, they spent “hundreds of hours” to solve the clipping issue on an armor set designed specifically for a small percentage of the playerbase. They redesigned the core engine behind the game for runes for an armor set designed specifically for that same small percentage (which obviously took a really long time as well). Then there was the aesthetic design, armor animations and collection chains associated with it.

This was no small project (at least 2 years of development by most accounts) – all to develop armor sets for a small subset of the GW2 population that likely cares less about the look of armors than any other – and develop features that (specifically addressing clipping) that others in the game have been BEGGING for.

And, to add insult to injury, they have the gall to say that raids do not take resources from other parts of the game.

This was a colossal waste of time and a very clear indicator that Anet has lost any concept of who their players and long term supporters really are.

Jahroots.6791:

Either way….keep on fightin’ the good fight, Blaeys.

Not planning to stop anytime soon.

And -

I know from experience that I will get attacked over those comments (can probably even guess who will do the attacking), but it is something more people need to be paying attention to.

Told ya. It didnt take long for that to come true. I see it as more reason to continue. I am not afraid of criticism or even outright hate. I was with the Navy and Marine Corps for six years. I think I’ve had worse slung at me (and have to laugh when people try to insinuate I don’t understand the meaning of hardcore ). I ve even had death threats against me and my family (some idiot saying he knew where I lived) on Reddit.

For the record, Im not anti raid, just believe there is much that needs to be improved.

Agreed. I would also argue for it on ascended armor. This kind of functionality shouldn’t be reserved solely for the small group that raids. It has application gamewide.

venus.4509:

Blaeys.3102:

Realistically, you will have an EXTREMELY hard time getting into any raid groups as a pure dps mesmer – especially in pugs.

The nature of the content and how they have chosen to do raids has pretty much invalidated many builds (even some very popular ones) – and some professions pretty much outright – in that content, a direction strengthened and made worse by many in the community..

I feel like that is mostly what it has come down to and unless I play the way I’m told to build wise verse I guess the original idea of freedom of choice in build I’m not gonna get very far.

What’s worse is the developers think that this kind of arbitrary rigid design deserves the title “challenging content” when in reality the challenge is the ability to carbon copy everything your neighbor is wearing and exactly how they play their toon.

To a degree, the push to conform to the current raid model removes unique-ness and a player’s sense of identity from the game.

I know from experience that I will get attacked over those comments (can probably even guess who will do the attacking), but it is something more people need to be paying attention to.

Realistically, you will have an EXTREMELY hard time getting into any raid groups as a pure dps mesmer – especially in pugs.

The nature of the content and how they have chosen to do raids has pretty much invalidated many builds (even some very popular ones) – and some professions pretty much outright – in that content, a direction strengthened and made worse by many in the community..

The blog and existence of legendary armor in this single exclusionary corner of the game put to rest the idea that raids do not consume significant developmental resources (especially those outside the small raid team).

I personally would have rather seen them put the effort into the legendary armor quests they scrapped just after HOT or into designing full sets of interesting armor for living story or other more popular/accessible areas of the game.

And they should work on rune and clipping related issues for everyone – not just the blessed few who raid.

A moderator probably needs to go through and merge a bunch of these threads. It would make it easier for new people – like the OP – joining the discussion (something I am happy to see – and expect to see a lot more of moving forward).

To the OP, the most recent discussion would actually be in this thread -

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/The-real-issue-with-raiding-as-a-raider/first#post6565214

thrag.9740:

Rednik are you implying that multi mode system isn’t flawed?

Of course not. Nothing is perfect. And raid training runs/groups/guilds are definitely a good thing.

But raid training runs, while a noble concept, do not address many of the key concerns – and become a pretty rare occurrence when things start to get stale for the harder core raiders leading them.

Even worse, they are often used by players to get higher skilled players to carry them through the content rather than teach them how to do it. That doesn’t really help the raid scene and probably feels tedious and unfun for everyone involved.

A multi tiered system puts the onus on the players looking for that kind of content rather than relying on others to form the groups. It gives them more control over how they experience the game. It gives them an option that doesn’t include being carried – making it easier for harder core raiders to identify and work with the players who do actually want to learn and progress.

I also think it’s worth bringing up since it was in a blog post today – the idea of raids consuming only a small amount of ANet’s time and resources pretty much went out the window with the Legendary Armor blog post today. The writer specifically talks about the huge amount of work – even rewriting core system – that went into developing it. That pretty much negates any argument that this is a niche corner of content that doesn’t affect developmental resources for the rest of the game.

TexZero.7910:

Lets not go down the new mode = accessible. It’s not, it’s just diluting the pool.

I disagree. There is a very clear reason why other successful raiding MMOs utilize multiple modes. While there are some minor issues with them as there is with many things, they go a long way to solving the accessibility issue. They open the raid experience to people who would otherwise be uninterested or excluded.

Yes, more structure and better grouping tools are good things and should be continual goals, but it still doesn’t address the big issues related to accessibility.

zealex.9410:

Blaeys.3102:

zealex.9410:

so they are 2 diff raiding scenes huh? I mean one as you said is for the experience while the other is for the challenge and should bw hard how do you move from the one scene to the other?

Again, I think the answer is to adapt the challenge mote system into a story mote system instead – as Vanguard says in his posts as well.

It already has precedent in game and would solve the problem elegantly (and most raiders I know don’t care for the challenge motes anyway – this would be a better use of those resources). That said, Anet has a long history of creative problem solving. There may be a better way.

vanguard who?

The OP of this thread.

Amaimon.7823:

thanks for the headsup, I updated the top post to contain Guild Halls and Scribing now. During the stream he said there were gonna be 6 videos so I made 6 slots with sandwich links. Turns out we’re at part 8 now

Based on the start of one of the videos, it sounds like he may have some more coming for WvW and PvP as well.

To this one, the guild hall video is fairly long, but it is worth at least skimming through.

Guild halls – and guild content in general – are woefully under-supported and have been pretty much since the HOT launch. It’s sad being reminded exactly what they talked about implementing for guilds as they hyped up HOT.

zealex.9410:

so they are 2 diff raiding scenes huh? I mean one as you said is for the experience while the other is for the challenge and should bw hard how do you move from the one scene to the other?

Again, I think the answer is to adapt the challenge mote system into a story mote system instead – as Vanguard says in his posts as well.

It already has precedent in game and would solve the problem elegantly (and most raiders I know don’t care for the challenge motes anyway – this would be a better use of those resources). That said, Anet has a long history of creative problem solving. There may be a better way.

zealex.9410:

balance it by making it easier? Shouldnt the normal mode be easier then as well for a smoother transition?

Again, youre overcomplicating it.

You balance the normal (hardcore) mode to offer the challenge desired by the hardcore players and the story mode to offer the accessibility wanted by more casual players.

If either of those do not adequately accomplish their goal (keeping in mind there will always be outliers unhappy with whatever happens), then you balance that specific version – common sense shows that there is no reason you have to balance both every time you touch one or the other. Ongoing balance has always been a part of the game – even with stuff that came out in 2012.

I don’t think the solution would be nearly as convoluted as you try to make it seem.

zealex.9410:

That still limit how hard nomal mode can be tho. If the normal is really hard then the ez encounter of 70% will still be hard that yes can be fixed with 3 modes 1 the 70% 60% the normal 100% and the hard the like 150 200% but thats 3 modes that would take crazy resources.

I think you are overcomplicating the matter. You’re simply talking about balancing the content for different audiences here. If the story mode doesnt meet the accessibility needs when it comes out, the solution wouldnt be to create a third version – it would be to balance the story mode version, something they do across the board as standard operating procedure anyway.

zealex.9410:

also the matter of what purpose does the ez mode serve? Is it just a story mode for ppl to experience the story or a first step to raiding? If the former ppl will cry " i went in ez mode cleared it i went to normal got my ass handed t me and was kick or flamed for being bad omg anet kitten game" Or the latter " omg anet the story mode is too hard still omg new pll that dont have any knowledge and mess my runs (since there no such thing as li for you to make a base lvl of experience for ppl to see before joining your group). I support to not include any reword maybe the bare minimun of maybe a rare and 2 blues (lul) but then ppl might say (what the kitten anet this is to hard and it rewards too little omg fix. Then how hard should normal raids be? with having a entry lvl normal mode os still limited on how low that entry lvl is and therefor the devs are limited to what they can do. The devs could also go the way of making normal mode a hard but not as hard as the player base that raids were sold to wanted it. Now what do they make an even harder raid for them? But thats 3 modes does anet have money for 3 modes?

I think, once the initial pain point (accessibility) has been addressed, what you’re talking about here actually presents more of an opportunity than a hurdle. If it makes sense to revisit a raid (which should be a rare occurrence once the accessibility issue is cleared up), they could just as easily add in more difficult motes as less difficult ones. It would be, if needed, another way to revisit and make the content more applicable to more people (on both ends of the spectrum).

That said, realistically, the primary needs would be met with a hardcore and story mode, imo. Anything beyond that would be – as with all things – on a case by case basis (and likely have more to do with balance as new elite specializations are released into the game).

Still, the immediate pain point is accessibility. That would be addressed pretty well by what Vanguard discusses above.

Yannir.4132:

They aren’t asking for money, they are asking for gems. Gems can be acquired by gold.

This 100%.

It isn’t that hard to get enough in game gold to buy 200 gems – and seems like a reasonable request (and for those wanting it faster, there is the minimal cash option – I think 200 gems usually runs about $3 US).

zealex.9410:

Also it should come a month after the first raid release.
An ez mode creates more problems than having a normalmode and a hard one. An ez mode targeted at casual must be really eaz and the jump in difficulty from ez mode to your suggested harder normal mode will be too big. Ppl will go in normal thinking they cleared the ez one so they have the experience only to fail miserably.
They also cant be too small because the casual will cry that its to hard or the other way around the raider will cry that they ve been robbed of their challenging content.

I think this makes sense as well. The primary purpose of raids should always continue to be offering the challenging content mode. The additional modes would be about accessibility, story continuity, justifying more raid development, etc.

To the point about how much easier a story or training mode should be – to me, that means leveling the playing field between ALL builds more than anything. I think escort from wing three feels about right in that respect (which is pretty easy comparatively, imo). After the initial challenge is offered, I would see them using that encounter as target when developing a story or lesser difficulty mode.

But, again, the integrity of the hardmode must be preserved first and foremost (and that includes the unique rewards). Waiting a month or even more to release the story or lower difficulty + significantly reducing the rewards offered makes sense and would accomplish this, imo.

zealex.9410:

They did the exact oposite with the newest wing. They lowered the base difficulty and introduced an somewhat hard mode.

Hf ^^

Which is exactly what Im referencing when I talk about this. It illustrates that the tools exist to make this happen.

That said, Im starting to hate that this particular discussion is taking up so much space in this particular thread this morning. Wooden Potatoes posted another video this morning that deserves notice and discussion as much – if not more – than the raid one.

And that is about guild halls and, for the most part, how they have failed to live up to their potential. This is something I care about as well – especially when it comes to guild missions and the fact that we havent seen a new pve mission in 3 years, 11 months and 1 day.

SaulWolfden.6178:

EdwinLi.1284:

I am curious how Mace can be handled in the other professions that do not have them yet.

Thief could easily use it like a blackjack (small club). Engineer could also use it like a one handed hammer (also a wrench skin already exists on mace). Necromancer could use it as a condition based melee weapon.

Agreed. I could easily see the mace making sense on a thief (maybe call it a thug – which would tie in with things already in game).

thrag.9740:

I support story mode with no rewards. I don’t think you should get any mag shards for heavily nerfed raids. I think unlocking mastery track via easy mode is fine, its basically the same as escort.

But I guess I just don’t see the difference between what OP is suggesting, and what we have. We already have some raids which are insanely easy like escort,trio, and MO. Anyone wanting to get into raids can start with those pretty easily.

And I agree 1000% that story or lesser difficulty raids should come with a significantly lesser reward, possibly even excluding magnetite shards (or, at the very least, locking the more interesting items on the magnetite vendor until players have beaten bosses on the harder modes as they have to now).

To the other point, what we have now is limited to specific encounters and does not offer the experience of the raid, which is the true need.

So yes, reduced or almost no reward is definitely warranted in this case – providing the experience for a greater number of players is the goal.

Cyninja.2954:

Blaeys.3102:

zealex.9410:

Blaeys.3102:

zealex.9410:

Every arguement in favor of raids is a bad arguement in your eyes blaeys.

Once again, not true in the least. I am not, nor have I ever been, anti raid. I simply have a different perspective on what raiding needs to be in the game than you do.

And the topic is important to me because of my guild and my friends. I (and many others) see a need for change – and I will advocate for that change every chance I get.

If I actually hated raids, this wouldn’t be nearly as big an issue. The fact that the story/aesthetics/fight mechanics are as interesting as they are is the very reason there needs to be greater accessibility. If they were boring or poorly done, I wouldnt care near as much as I do now.

i would also advocate for a change for the open world to be harder everywhere for more presigious abd hard to get things to exist and ingeneral rewarding you basednon effort you have put in. But i dont because i understand that the game works diff in diff areas amd i see and respect. Se way i respect raids as a rhing in game that works on its own rules and pll have grown to love them for that. Why cant you no raider came to annoy you or knock on your door why should you on theirs?

I actually agree that there should be more difficult content options in open world – and I think there are ways that could be done fairly easily (I even proposed one I would LOVE to see them implement in another thread recently).

But, aside from that, it is obviously much easier to do this kind of tiered content in instance game modes (again, fractals as an example). Given that accessibility isn’t an issue with open world in the same way it is with raids, it makes sense to focus on solving the problem as it pertains to raids.

And – I am a raider. I run raids every week. I just think they fail on the accessibility front – and that addressing that would be good for both the game and the game mode. Please – everyone – focus less on the players posting and more on the actual conversation. It is way more productive.

Wades through the horrible amount of threads right after HoT launch of whines about how the game has become to hard, some of which are still created today.

Making open world content challenging is not the way to go.

I’d much prefer challenging content to stay optional instanced content and leave open world for every one who just wants to chill. That’s also the path arenanet seems to be taking and it has worked fine so far. If people would mind their own business a bit more instead of encroaching on game modes they do not enjoy everyone would be better off.

Which is why the example I provided (https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Can-we-get-a-hardmode-for-pve-maps/first#post6559377) wouldn’t have affected the chill or more casual experience at all (in fact, it would have extended it). It is about adding to the experience without taking away the underlying purpose of other versions of that content.

The same is true in raids – the argument is for more options, ones that extend the experience in ways that warrant more support for the game mode. And, given the inclusion of challenge motes in the last wing, it seems like something they could do fairly unobtrusively in the current raid model (by making the baseline experience even more difficult and then using the motes to provide the story or training experience).

zealex.9410:

Blaeys.3102:

zealex.9410:

Every arguement in favor of raids is a bad arguement in your eyes blaeys.

Once again, not true in the least. I am not, nor have I ever been, anti raid. I simply have a different perspective on what raiding needs to be in the game than you do.

And the topic is important to me because of my guild and my friends. I (and many others) see a need for change – and I will advocate for that change every chance I get.

If I actually hated raids, this wouldn’t be nearly as big an issue. The fact that the story/aesthetics/fight mechanics are as interesting as they are is the very reason there needs to be greater accessibility. If they were boring or poorly done, I wouldnt care near as much as I do now.

i would also advocate for a change for the open world to be harder everywhere for more presigious abd hard to get things to exist and ingeneral rewarding you basednon effort you have put in. But i dont because i understand that the game works diff in diff areas amd i see and respect. Se way i respect raids as a rhing in game that works on its own rules and pll have grown to love them for that. Why cant you no raider came to annoy you or knock on your door why should you on theirs?

I actually agree that there should be more difficult content options in open world – and I think there are ways that could be done fairly easily (I even proposed one I would LOVE to see them implement in another thread recently – https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Can-we-get-a-hardmode-for-pve-maps/first#post6559377).

But, aside from that, it is obviously much easier to do this kind of tiered content in instance game modes (again, fractals as an example). Given that accessibility isn’t an issue with open world in the same way it is with raids, it makes sense to focus on solving the problem as it pertains to raids.

And – I am a raider. I run raids every week. I just think they fail on the accessibility front – and that addressing that would be good for both the game and the game mode. Please – everyone – focus less on the players posting and more on the actual conversation. It is way more productive.

zealex.9410:

Every arguement in favor of raids is a bad arguement in your eyes blaeys.

Once again, not true in the least. I am not, nor have I ever been, anti raid. I simply have a different perspective on what raiding needs to be in the game than you do.

And the topic is important to me because of my guild and my friends. I (and many others) see a need for change – and I will advocate for that change every chance I get.

If I actually hated raids, this wouldn’t be nearly as big an issue. The fact that the story/aesthetics/fight mechanics are as interesting as they are is the very reason there needs to be greater accessibility. If they were boring or poorly done, I wouldnt care near as much as I do now.

Amaimon.7823:

There is already so much casual content in the game, let us have something challenging on the side that won’t affect the rest of the game_"

except it is possible to add in that challenging content without denying that same content to more casual players. Fractals are the best example of this – and there is a mechanic in raids now that could be utilized for this (challenge motes, which could just as easily be story motes).

Amaimon.7823:

Don’t get me wrong, you are right to some extent. It’s a shame that not everyone can experience the closure of Saul d’Alessio. However, the devs have made their position clear on the subject and for a very good reason (in my opinion) namely that raids can now be used to tell the darker, and sometimes downright morbid aspects of history that they cannot insert into the living story because the living story needs to remain friendly for all audiences. Saul was exposed to great torture, and they wanted us to get into that vibe. A vibe that simply cannot be experienced in a world as `family friendly´ as the Living Story. That said, I do agree with some semantics that it would be great for raids to have a `story´ mode without the legendary rewards so people can practice mechanics and casuals can experience the story._"

They actually said on reddit that there is nothing inherent in raids that restrict darker storylines to that content. Difficulty doesn’t magically make a difference in the kind of stories people want to experience. These same storylines could easily be done in living story (or better yet, in tiered difficulty raids).

Amaimon.7823:

But then again, the casual playerbase has access to 95% of the game, so it really a war worth fighting?_"

Of course it is worth fighting for. Raids are going to be a bigger and bigger part of the game moving forward – even moreso than they are in other raiding MMOs simply because there is no gear/level treadmill. The gulf between players, the split in the story, the angst over accessibility – these will only grow worse with time. They need to address it now before it does greater damage to the game and its community.

I am very happy to see this topic persist across both these forums and other sites like Reddit and Massively. GW2 is an amazing game and raids should have a real place in it – something they can really do once Anet deals with the accessibility issue.

As before, I strongly encourage everyone participating in this topic to go back and read the first real raid discussion on these forums – the CDI with the developers (https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/cdi/CDI-Guilds-Raiding/first). There are some really strong ideas and points in that thread. I even noticed, while looking through recently, that the guild leader of one of the most hardcore guilds in the game even advocated for a scaling system in raids – proposing they scale, inside an instance, between 8 and 16 people (an idea I liked then and still like now).

For raids to justify any kind of real developmental resources, they need greater appeal – and there desperately need to be a way for those professions/builds on the bottom of the tables to legitimately experience the content without feeling severely handicapped or like they have to lean on “the real raiders.” The fact is true balance will never happen (without completely redoing their systems or homogenizing every build in the game) – this needs to be done on the content side or the issue will never go away.

It’s been more than two years now that I and many others have been pointing this out (as often and as loud as we can) and making these arguments to Anet. And, if need be, we will be making it two years from now (hopefuly we wont need to). This issue isn’t going away – Anet needs to fix this.

Amaimon.7823:

I take it you’re one of the people who doesn’t like raids.
Well, you’re sarcasm conveniently left out the criticism he had about raids in favor of your “raids are bad, mm-kay”. Also, don’t like it, don’t play it. Raids don’t affect the rest of the game in any negative way.
Any thing can be the best thing to the game, and it won’t require 100% of the population to like it. From an objective point of view, raiding is one of the best things that happened to GW2, because it opened so many windows of content. In retrospect, if you’re one of the people who don’t like it, raids are designed in such a way that they are a very rewarding experience without becoming obligatory in the slightest. You can excel in this game without ever stepping foot inside. Same with fractals.

This is a bad argument, imo, and here is why.

Nothing in this game is obligatory (a good thing). You can do pretty much everything independently and still have fun.

But, at the same time, people have always had greater accessibility to every aspect of the game when making that choice. Raids in their current iteration cause problems because they essentially build a soft wall in front of content many more casual players would find interesting.

The most visible example of this is the saul d’alessio storyline in wing 4. Technically, it is a side story, but that is really just semantics (and WEAK semantics too, given the tie in between Saul and the White Mantle/Mursaat). No matter what you call it in order to justify what they’ve done, it is interesting story that ties into game lore and, for those that played GW1, is something many have wanted to experience for a long time. Placing that storyline in raids (in their current format) is basically telling everyone interested in story that they have to raid – and deal with all of the things many find frustrating about them (10 player issues, horrid balance, etc) – in order to experience these interesting stories. And that is a much different thing from telling people they needed to fractals or living story for that experience (specifically because of the accessibility issue).

That is offputting to many people. As far as I am concerned, that isnt the game many of us left other raid heavy MMOs to come to. Anet needs to right the ship and do it before the next raid wing comes out (and definitely before choosing to put any lore heavy content into raids again).

I will also say, for the reason I mention above, that I think Wooden Potatoes has lost touch with those kind of players recently. I’m glad that he enjoys raids in GW2, but I also think he comes at the game from a perspective now different than that of the typical GW2 player (something he did very well when the game first came out – back when he developed his strongest following). This changed perspective will hurt his appeal long term.

I think he has lost touch with much of the very audience that supported him in his early days (like myself).

CaptainVanguard.4925:

Is Accessiblity.

Getting into raiding once your in it isnt hard, once you’ve found a good static, or people good enough to get you into a decent training guild/training run regieme you can genuinely get through raiding fine, the difficulty isnt as hard as some might be afraid to think it is.

Id say the challenge of most raids is on par with normal mode world of warcraft for those familiar with the concept, as a comparison for refference, its accessably dooable and hell some of it can even be done with mostly exotics though id still recommend having at least ascended armor/weapons before investing into raiding, maybe a backpack too.

I would however admit, that it took me a while, like, a whole year and then some to finally “find” someone willing to take me on, Im not a confident person, the group im with though, they’re awesome, some of the best, genuinley.

And as times gone on, we went from clearing maybe 3 bosses a week, to literally clearing the entire raid, a week.

We’ve even recently done CM Cairne, I got the eternal title, working on slip-slub, is it achievable? Yes, is it hard, quite probably yes.

Now I will say again, the accessiblity can be demanding, I find alot of pug raids demand a rediculas number of LI’s even if you clearly have done some of the harder achievements in the game which honestly makes it obnoxious.

My proposal to A-net is something akin to a soft LFR like wow. My suggestion essentially is this, a tutorial mode much like how everyone keeps asking for story mode.

Tutorial mode would essentially be the beginners guide to raiding, much like how we have CM and current normal, tutorial mode would be designed for people more interested in the story, but also be designed to give you a much “much” easier time getting “into” raids for the first time.

My idea for this works as follows:

Tutorial motes are similar to challenge motes, but instead of blue glowing motes, you get a green glowing one.

When tutorial mode is activated, the damage the boss deals is significantly nerfed, and the boss enrage timer is made alot longer.

However, in this mode it is literally impossible to get raid rewards from the bosses, but you can however get mastery contribution, aswell as a very MINOR amount of mag shards, were talking maybe…, 2-3 per boss.

Some might say this would make raiding completley Irelevent but I disagree, this is “the” compramise raiding needs, because now, you have no excuse. Accessability via tutorial mode would give people the means to get into raiding, much like infantile mode to SAB. It would be designed to help you START the experience, and help unfamilair players do the bosses for the first time.

Tutorial mode would also extend to the training ground, which could be accessed now een without a squad, tutorial mode basically allows you to familiarize yourself with your class, and the general role your speicalizatoin favors such as Chronomancer Tanks, Druid Healers, etc etc.

By training people with an automated system we can essentially remove the need for trianing groups and eventially have everyone more or less ready for raiding in no time. I say keep the current difficulty, and CM, but add a training mode, to help new players who want to get into raiding for the first time.

This is exactly what many have been advocating for the past year. It makes sense and would help make raiding at all levels more accessible and warrant deeper support for the game mode.

It would also put to rest any concern about story accessibility for those never interested in the more hardcore experience – and open raids up as a real storytelling tool for future content.

Thank you for posting.

zoomborg.9462:

This started as a normal thread and turned into “Anet give us ez raid mode cause raids are hard and i struggle”.

No it didn’t. I simply put forth a reason for the tension – the forced mixing of people with divergent playstyles. Of course this kind of situation will be commonplace in a system like that. It isnt about anyone struggling at all.

Sykper.6583:

Your previous post placed a lot of onus on raids being a major issue with ‘toxicity’ in the game. In fact I would say it was fairly inflammatory and CptAurelian is right on the mark.

I apologize if it came across as inflammatory or insulting to anyone in any way. It definitely wasn’t my intent.

Again, I think raids have a very real place in the game. At the same time, I think giving those less dedicated a way to experience raids separate from the more hardcore players (in much the same way different fractal levels do this in that game mode) would reduce (definitely not eliminate) the tensions that cause the situation outlined by the OP of this thread.

In essence, a big part of the problem is that different players want different experiences out of raids (as with any part of the game). And while toxicity exists everywhere in the game, I think there is a way they can reduce it (again, not eliminate it) here – by providing a wider range of options and experiences inside the raid model.

Again, I apologize if the way I communicated that earlier in the thread came across as insulting or inflammatory to anyone. It wasnt the intent.

Why do some posters have to resort to personal attacks and direct insults rather than attempt civil discussion.

This is a common tactic designed to browbeat and belittle people and, more than anything, results in one sided discussions as people begin avoiding the forums altogether for fear of attacks (and if a developer is reading – please note that just means people tire of being insulted – not that issues worth discussion don’t persist).

And of course there is toxicity in every part of the game. I never said there wasn’t. That doesn’t mean you just accept it or that you don’t try and combat and look for solutions where you can. I simply cited what I believe to be a core cause for it in this case – and attempted to talk about what I consider to be a valid way to deal with it. You can disagree with that (in fact, I welcome it) – but please leave the insults and personal attacks out of it.

and note that, for the most part, people do attempt to have a legitimate discussion. I think comments like Baseleader’s or CptAurelian’s above, for instance, are a good example of this – and I thank them for keeping it civil even when we obviously strongly disagree. Unfortunately, it only takes one irrational person to turn it into mudslinging rather than discourse.

Cyninja.2954:

Astralporing.1957:

Cyninja.2954:

Jski.6180:

The big thing HoT did wrong was making raids way too important to the over all game. Classes live and die off of the balancing to raids aimed builds but for some reason it effects both wvw and open world pve. In a way anet is giving up there old game types for a new one and much smaller / less played. HoT kind of messed things up in that way.

Open world pve doesn’t need balance, it never has and never will unless arenanet moves away from gather 50-100 people, zerg down event, done.

That’s exactly the thinking that leads to raids’ overblown importance in this game.

No, there’s no content that “doesn’t need balancing”. Not unless you treat it as completely unimportant.

No that’s the type of thinking which realises that open world content in this game is not designed around certain classes but certain amounts of people doing said content. Yes, some classes are easier/stronger in open world (necromancer for example) and others are inherintly more difficult (mesmer comes to mind) but guess what, that was the case before raids were introduced and it would remain to be the case even if raids were to be removed.

The only difference is we now actualy have some sort of balance being done. It doesn’t change that the difficulty in open world content is about as hard as finding your 1 key and targeting stuff with it.

Raid balance has literally 0 effect on class viability in open world content at this point in time.

But it does have a real impact on how the professions feel and play. My biggest concern is that, by focusing too much on balance for raids, the developers will end up homogenizing the professions to the point that they all basically play and feel the same. That would be very bad for the game.