Other games have stealth break on damage and break upon attacking. I don’t understand why this game made stealth even more powerful than it is in other games. Even in other games stealth causes mass complaints although it’s less powerful.
Stealth lasts 4 sec (speced) unless its shadows refuge. No other game limits stealth to this short of a duration. Hence the reason it does not break on damage.
If it broke on damage it would be useless and we would be low hp/ low armor warriors with no group support.
I don’t buy it. I have a top of the line system and I rarely see a thief at all when he attacks me.
You don’t buy what? Stealth durations? Go to the wiki and look it up
If you are not seeing them its culling, it’s an Anet side problem and has nothing to do with how good you computer is.
ok, so since i can’t tab target them, and I can’t see them, how is it different than stealth again since they can stealth soon thereafter and I never can target them?
It isn’t, but why is that a reason to nerf a class, when culling is already being worked on? Opinions are nice, but yours isn’t helping. Be patient. Wait, and it will all get fixed eventually.
You don’t nerf a class because of a broken game mechanic that can be fixed. You fix that game mechanic.
BTW, you can tab target them, as it neglects culling, but tab targetting only works on targets in your line of sight, where he is not likely to be.
I think your looking at this the wrong way. If a class is broken as is don’t you think it would be fair to every other class that it is temporarily balanced to the current situation. I see no reason people cant exploit other glitches (and get banned for it) but when they exploit this (yes, it is an exploit) ANet just looks the other way :/ Seems like they have either high hopes of fixing this soon, or they are just big fans of Thieves. I personally think they’ve taken much longer than they should have to fix this and expect them to take even longer (for something that should have been fixed to start).
Edit: I would like to add that this is coming from someone who ONLY WvWs. As it stands its more frustrating than fun to play with current culling issues.
1. Give yaks a ‘reveal’ skill that uncovers any stealthed player within 1500 range of it as it walks along.
2. Give yaks a 1500 radius that prevents movement at faster than walking combat speed within that radius so d/d eles can’t kite back and forth all over the map and kill your yak without 5 players being able to do anything about it.
3. Give yaks 5 times as much HP points as currently, so no class can burst it down on their own in a few seconds.
4. Yaks take no damage before the guards are killed.
5. A yak being attacked flashes up on the map as soon as the guards are aggroed by a player.
Simple changes that could make escorting yaks with a chance of it actually reaching it’s destination
I actually think all of these are great! Especially 1, 2, and 4. It would make it easier for defenders to kill attackers and dolyaks would not be such a joke. This makes it kind of fun to escort them and see if a skilled profession can take me and the guards down.
First off, all the people saying thieves are OP and needs nerfing, have you guys played in SPvP where things are actually equal and there’s no culling issue? People have been repeating it over and over about thieves not being an issue in real PvP situations. All the complaint is in WvW as far as I can tell. Now, what’s a more accurate way for Anet to balance around? WvW, where many weak players are often at? Or from SPvP where more competitive PvP players are at?
That’s a something for you guys asking for an overhaul on thieves to think about.
I dont see why they cant balance for both?
Have no cooldown on stealth in Spvp for you leet players and limit it more in WvW (where the culling problem actually resides) for us people who dont give 2 hoots for Spvp
I agree, pretty much quit till WvW is fixed.
Culling and reward system (yup im one of those guys that doesnt see a point to contributing if enemy will abuse a system to win unless I am given something to do it for). Let alone roaming and dyeing to something you dont even see.
Then again one game is going free to play soon so I might try that till WvW gets fixed. :P
Yeah its actually fun to fight d/d elementalists because you can see they actually need to try to survive (between attunement swapping and cantrips)
So im pretty glad they are replacing thieves :P
Minor problem? Hardly. At times it is even game-breaking.
You can’t stop them entering and they can harass you without fear of reprisal as long as they are within running distance to the gate portal.
It really shouldn’t allow you to enter the portals. No other class can pull this cheesy move off. It is imbalanced.
No, culling thief stealth is gamebreaking.
And stealth stomping… even worse!
And yes you can stop them from entering the keep, before they die(easy to see since their hp is dropping) just root them. If they switch to water mid-vapor form root again (if its outside a keep there should be more than enough roots, not cooperating and using them wisely is another matter altogether)
@Azure Prower
Of course, scorpion wire is no where near as useful.
How about trade some of your stealth for it? Fair trade, your survivability for theirs?
If I’m running by and I see an ally in a 1v1 situation I will, 100% of the time and without hesitation, incinerate the opposing fighter. If, and only if, my ally tells me directly to leave him be will I do this. But any form of hesitation on my part before it’s confirmed to be a duel is a waste of time and give the enemy a chance to gain an edge, and my build will NOT allow me to win after my ally is down. This is a war zone, and duelists cannot expect the soldiers to stop and second guess themselves before engaging in what could be a game changing confrontation.
Completely agree.
If my ally loses his duel the enemy will definately kill me too since im not specced for 1 vs 1.
So even if asked not to intrude, if I see my ally losing ill step in and try and help out :P
You should have known, posting this in a thief forum that you’d have just about everyone disagreeing.
You can see a whole lot more post like yours on other professions forums, id recommend posting them there with people of similar professions.
(Not on thief forums where everyone is a thief and will always just reply L2P)
But I completely agree with you Thread Starter.
Soon they will either fix culling (which is a nerf in itself) or nerf to compensate (which I dont see them doing), or leave them alone and ill make one too :P
Plus when you F1 at a thief, and he goes in stealth the pet resets and wont continue to fight him :/
Why cant they make pets like mesmers Phantasms that will attack the thief as soon as he comes back out, quite annoying having to recast F1 everytime (considering im aiming to kill other people, I just sick my pet at them to scare them off).
Can any one of you people who say L2P link us to a recent video of someone killing a thief in WvW, who isnt specifically specced to kill that one thief?
I do not believe it is a L2P issue but just that thieves are easymode and too forgiving.
Id just like some evidence before i start to take any L2P post seriously, because for now I do not.
The true problem is culling, not build.
Build makes it more bearable though.
But yeah Tank builds help take their damage That solves surviving the burst part, but not so much countering :P (Just cuz you can take their damage does not mean you can kill them)
Knights gear works miracles on heavy armors, not so sure if it applies to light or medium armors though :P
Ok, I can’t keep reading. I cannot believe the pure lack of understanding in many of these posts.
Stealth doesn’t need to be fixed. It’s not broken. It’s not too powerful, nor is it too weak. It rides the line, and it has MANY vulnerabilities.
That said, it is completely obvious that many of the posters do not take advantage of these vulnerabilities. Rather than countering or avoiding the stealthed thief, they’re letting the thief have their way.
Aside from culling issues, this is a L2P issue. Don’t try to “fix” something if it’s not broken. Many of you may not enjoy stealth. You may think it’s annoying. Still… annoying does not mean broken. There’s nothing to be fixed.
Accept that stealth exists, demand that culling issues be fixed, and work with the system, not against it. Beat stealth with gameplay, not with “fixes.”
Culling issues make the class broken, so it needs a temporary fix. It isnt a “L2P” issue, its a “thieves vastly benefit from culling problems and should be handicapped till culling is fixed” issue. There is no way to work with a broken system (culling). There is no benefit to culling that can be worked with, except for thieves that we all know are exploiting.
Soon, either Anet fixing culling or nerfing thieves to make it in-par with the culling issue, everything will be resolved.
EDIT:
Atleast for WvW, im sure theres no problem with it in sPvP since theres no Zergs.
Pve im sure no ones complaining about.
Bursty thieves spend very little time in stealth. They’re just using it to deliver Backstab as quickly as possible.
This. Your proposed solution doesn’t even address the issue which some people have difficulty with.
The problem most noobs and glass cannons have with Thieves is that they don’t know how to fight a glass cannon Thief. Glass cannons of any class aren’t nearly the threat to more experienced players than they are to noobs and other glass cannons. Once someone gets a little more experience and learns the game more, these noob killing builds aren’t that bad.
The problem is that even after you get them to low health they stealth and run out of sight. Its much to easy for them to get into stealth, heck even the healing skill stealths them.
I made an Asura for their T3 armor, but at 80 all I do is WvW.
It would be great if doing WvW would help me towards my goal, but as long as they make it so we can get Ascended gear (excluding Agony since there is no need for it in WvW) from it ill be more that content
If you notice, the “corpses” have their eyes open….. I think this means corpse spying is intentional….. Also the use of the term “defeated” instead of “dead”…..
Anyway, yeah, have the map open on defeat, problem solved. Till that happens, do your ultra sneaky ninja activities out of sight of spies, it’s possible, corpses can’t follow you around you know…..
Oh yeah ive noticed we die with our eyes open and always wondered why, it completely makes sense now
Solo roaming with a warrior is very viable too, just make sure to carry a greatsword and whirlwind attack away then rush. Might wanna carry consumables that restore hp on crit aswell.
This is all true, unless you are fighting an idiot.
If you are fighting an idiot, this following is true:
Low Health Pool
Best Condition Removal. (your targets letting you CnD him over and over, a BIG mistake…)
Best Direct Damage. (your target is not moving around and you can get his back easilly.)
Low AOEs.
See thats the point, unless you are traited for cond removal on stealth, you don’t have cond removal. which is ironic actually, seeing as i run a cond build.
If we get a condition on you, just stealth and run off till it goes away :P Ive never killed a thief using conditions lol
The risk/reward of stealth is out of whack. Too many ways to get into stealth if you miss a burst window.
The simplest solutions would be to:
a) increase revealed debuff from all stealth sources to 10 seconds, and compensate with better utilities for the group – more combo fields (adding them to things like blinding powder) and focusing on the way steal buffs allies.
b) redesign CnD to something that does not give stealth
The whole mechanic of burst/stealth/burst/stealth endlessly is not good for the overall meta, it gets dull at best and with culling it becomes very broken.
I think 10 seconds is a little much, I was thinking along the lines of 6 or 7 seconds with the revealed buff. But I agree with all of this.
I can careless if thieves get nerf. Even if thieves get nerf… the people that cry about thieves still going to get face roll by thieves. Why? Because now they are facing with a new dilemma. I’m not going to ruin it for others. BUT when you guys figure it out. GJ
Most of us had never even posted in these threads until the rendering issue.
Thieves are not as strong as they think, its just that a glitch with the game that temporarily gives them a crutch :P
So many of us feel they should get a slight handicap till rendering is fixed to even it out. After that (either the handicap or the rendering issue fixed) im sure the forums will die down.
2:20 seconds for those who just wish to skip ahead.
I just agree to disagree :P
Link to a video where nobody is focusing on the thief… :/
exactly.
they were all pretty much standing still, not situationally aware at all, and no conditions on the thief? that video proves that people don’t know how to play against thieves.
I dont think you understand the mentality of players.
Why fight something who will stealth get away and come back when its full of health?
No point, im sure most people dont even bother with it.
tbh the thief in that vid is pretty skillful but anyway on the topic of hand that build doesn’t incorporate the 3sec gc nuke tactic that you see so there is no heavy damage the people he comes up against are pretty unskilled if you ever come against a D/P thief apply hard cc and dots hell any thief you come against do that since that is how you counter a thief and the pretty much any thief who commits to killing you buy using his CDs/inti wont get away the ones that will attack/hide rinse repeat are not attempting to kill you they are only attempting to hinder you enough so back up comes and finishes you off i do that method in WvW sometimes. if you tell me what class you play ill gladly give you some advice on how you can counter a thief
Sure, and thanks I play a Ranger.
Any idea how I would counter them?
I’m sure I can escape the initial hit with Lightning Reflexes, after that they hide and (being faster than me) they kill me.
Would I have to use other Traps when hes in stealth to have him come out of hiding then try and down him with Quickening Zephyr?
2:20 seconds for those who just wish to skip ahead.
I just agree to disagree :P
Link to a video where nobody is focusing on the thief… :/
exactly.
they were all pretty much standing still, not situationally aware at all, and no conditions on the thief? that video proves that people don’t know how to play against thieves.
I dont think you understand the mentality of players.
Why fight something who will stealth get away and come back when its full of health?
No point, im sure most people dont even bother with it.
Edit:
To contribute to the thread about suggestions, ill just add that something has to give.
2:20 seconds for those who just wish to skip ahead.
I just agree to disagree :P
Link to a video where nobody is focusing on the thief… :/
Im guessing you skipped the 2:20 second mark I had mentioned…
And here is a video of a elementalist getting lucky
It uses some profanity though, so some forewarning, mute if it would offend you http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gSH6EzEvC_0
A thief only needs black powder and heartseeker to stay in stealth and escape.
Edit:
Also theres a reason no one bothers to target thieves in this game, theres no use to it if he can just use stealth. I understand its a part of their playstyle, many of us would rather focus on someone who wont disappear only to reappear later on.
In my experience, an average player pretty much can’t kill a good anything in this game. Superior reflexes and counter-play tend to cause massive blowouts pretty much independent of the classes involved.
Yes but 1 of any profession can never beat 4 of another class as easy as a thief can.
If 1 ele tries to rush into a group of 4 he will never defeat all 4.
Same applies to any other profession, only reason a thief can is because of stealth, not skill…
Not sure if its been mentioned,
But Stealth finishing also has to be done away with.
Shouldnt even try and revive someone downed by a thief because the thief will finish him before you can even bring him up.
So please look into this, it is quite tedious.
Stealth finishing is the weakest of the “special” finishers and easiest to counter. Just kill/interrupt the thief, both of those options aren’t even available with most special finishing moves.
Problem lies here, how do I or many around me kill or interrupt the thief if we cant see him?
I don’t feel we should have to Aoe everywhere randomly just to see thieves, then only after that try to kill him. (Which is more a problem with stealth in general)
By “Special” finishers you mean Stability, and that is not so much a problem because you can shoot at the person (doing the finishing) while he tries to finish someone and kill him. With a thief you can’t even do that (because you can’t even see him).
Agreed. when they are perma stealthed, then how exactly should we aoe them? Lol.
If you are talking about AoEing a Thief trying to stomp a teammate, put the AOE on your teammate and autoattack the spot.
If i’m on my Shortbow/Longbow Ranger, how do I autoattack the thief? I cant because I cant shoot something i cant aim at.
I refuse to carry a greatsword in the chance this occurs…
And AoEing a thief is easier said than done. (By that i mean he can see my AoE rings on the floor and just wait it out)
It isn’t the profession that relies on 1v1 ambushes, it is a particular play style. Any profession can stack offense and jump people for quick 1v1 kills, thieves just have the mobility to get away when it fails.
I do kinda share your point, but thieves only being able to get away when they fail? what about warrior endure pain and spamming leap attacks to get away? mesmers using portals and teleport + stealth skills + all their illusions to trick you? necro’s state mode and fear?, d/d eles with mist form + lighting leap (don’t know the name)? etc etc the only classes I can think that suck at running away are guards, engineers and rangers, but rangers the most, guards still have a lot of buffs + invulnerability and some leap attacks and engineers have elixirs <3, I never play ranger I might be wrong :P
Only difference is those other professions don’t vanish from sight leaving you nothing to follow…
Mesmers may be the trickiest of all of the following to follow but they can. (They can stealth for 3 seconds using torch but that nothing compared to thieves with utilities and a heal that can stealth)
I think if they change the Detected buff (where they cant hide for 3 seconds) and make it so it appears even out of combat it would fix everything. (But break the class… so I would not like to see this implemented, just throwing out ideas.)
Not sure if its been mentioned,
But Stealth finishing also has to be done away with.
Shouldnt even try and revive someone downed by a thief because the thief will finish him before you can even bring him up.
So please look into this, it is quite tedious.
Stealth finishing is the weakest of the “special” finishers and easiest to counter. Just kill/interrupt the thief, both of those options aren’t even available with most special finishing moves.
Problem lies here, how do I or many around me kill or interrupt the thief if we cant see him?
I don’t feel we should have to Aoe everywhere randomly just to see thieves, then only after that try to kill him. (Which is more a problem with stealth in general)
By “Special” finishers you mean Stability, and that is not so much a problem because you can shoot at the person (doing the finishing) while he tries to finish someone and kill him. With a thief you can’t even do that (because you can’t even see him).
Not sure if its been mentioned,
But Stealth finishing also has to be done away with.
Shouldnt even try and revive someone downed by a thief because the thief will finish him before you can even bring him up.
So please look into this, it is quite tedious.
This. 1,000 times this. The players crying out for nerfs are not interested in game balance. They’re only interested in winning without putting in any effort for it. And supposing the thief does get heavily crippled by the nerf bat, don’t think for a moment they’ll stop at the thief. Any of the other 7 classes will be on their hit lists. all it takes is a single defeat and “ERMAHGERD, OVURPOWERD, NURF!!!11!1one!1one!1!”
Fine, Lets just buff everyone to deal with Thieves!
Every Non thief Class will now do 10x more damage.
Every Non thief Class will now have 10x more HP.
No nerfs! So I must be interested in balance right?
The only thing “nerfs” do is separate people who can think logically and those who can not. Power is totally relative. A nerf to one class is a buff to every other. A Buff to one class is a nerf to every other.
The only “advantage” of Buffs only is to soothe the egos of bad players using overpowered classes as a crutch to overcome their own incompetence.
So we should nerf the thief class because one of them dared strike you? Yes of course, makes perfect sense! People don’t want to just nerf the thief now, they want to utterly destroy it. Every time someone gets beaten by a thief, or a warrior, or a mesmer, they come here crying and screaming for nerfs like ignorant little children. Have you been paying any attention to the thief forums? The nerfers have been attacking everything from death blossom, to stealth. They’re dead set on obliterating thief burst, taking away stealth, and generally ruining the thief entirely.
The thief class isn’t overpowered. Could it use some tweaks? Perhaps, but the same could be argued of other classes as well. However, beyond the culling issue, there are little to no issues at all. If you’re going to nerf thief burst, then burst for other classes should be nerfed as well. People so easily overlook all the threads from thief and non-thief players alike about how easy it is to kill thieves. Look through the forums and you’ll find that skilled players have no problems dealing with thieves. But because bad players get beaten by thieves, they MUST be overpowered! HURRAY FOR LOGIC!!1!one!!
By that logic, every class should get nerfed for having ever defeated someone.
Incompetence indeed.
Wooshh. Right over your head.
Thats hilarious. Welcome to the forums lol.
My highest level thief is level 3, and I do not think thief damage is OP (Gasp). I think that their damage/health ratio is pretty solid and in-line with the top five classes (Ele, Mes, Thief, Guard, War) in WvW. I have been interviewing thieves in WvW at random. I ask how much health they have, how they like thief, and then if they have ever been 1 shot by a warrior. Most of them say yes. I like that their resource is called “Initiative” because that is what the thief is about. If the thief catches you, then your odds reduce greatly to make it out alive. If you catch THEM, then you can pretty consistently down them from 1,500 range in one hit.
I think the only thing that needs to be looked into is their mobility. I am still deciding between a thief or a warrior. How are thieves in PvE?
What if someone can’t 1HKO the thief like the warriors, how do they deal with them?
They don’t and the thief runs off.
Because they have the highest burst and best escape skills all in one.
They either kill you or if you do try to kill them and are winning they just escape.
Completely agree with Penguin 2 posts above.
Id like to know if the dyeing system for aquabreathers has even been implemented yet.
Maybe its just me, but it really bothers me having a white aquabreather that does’nt match with the color of my gear :/
To dye the aquabreather you just dye your helmet underwater.
It does not save though, so maybe it is not implemented yet?
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