Guild Wars 2

I don’t think BT receives nearly as much credit as they deserve; they’re an amazing guild and a HUGE part of FA’s success.

The problem people have with this current system is.. it doesn’t reward skill. I agree; you still deserve to have fun as a casual players; that’s why zergs are importants, but shouldn’t people who dedicate more to the game be rewarded more?

Kaimick.5109:

jhuce.2489:

Kaimick.5109:

How is the exact rule on downed state irrelevant?
You basis of argument is waning fast here.

Convenant was not asking for the exact fact on downed state. He was merely suggesting a new mechanic.
``Please make it so when a player is revived from downed state; he has 50% less stats``
So I do not see how this is relevant in the slightest.

Well to start with you made an incorrect statement of someone in down state having 40k health ( which is not true ) So I asked you to reference your source of legitimacy, you couldn’t, then claim you knew because of when you res. I posted the rules of downed state which again contradicted your proposal.

Now you want relevance to the topic at hand?

Fine as the rules state right now adding a 50% debuff to the 5 times your dead rule would make the mechanic not work as it should. Since every time you are downed you take a 25% decrease in Downed State Health which makes it harder to come back from these are the relevance to the topic at hand.

yet again all I have to say is

Ummm Lawyered

Some professions get more than 40K health in the downed state. You have no idea what you’re talking about.

Downed penalty is not what I asked for. I want 50% stats reduction. Which part of that was unclear? Sheesh..

Thank you Tsarazi!

Hi, I have the same issue. Help anyone?

This is so annoying for small-mans.. please prioritize buffs/cleanses/heals to party members!

Hi Zoose. IF you think you can keep up with us, AoN can 5v25 easy-breezy. Need you to communicate well, and be capable of viewing the group as a whole and as an extension of yourself. Talk to me if interested!

Jacklo.4230:

Great idea OP and before tonight I would have agreed.
Except, for the last 2 days, all 3 sides in WvW have been operating huge zergs.
Tonight was different, we all decided to break up the zergs and go as much smaller groups – to experience the worst lag I have ever experienced in game, in areas far away from major activity. This was T4 on Gandara.

Back to the drawing board, it’s obvious the server load is too high and their architecture can’t support the number of players right now, regardless of location.

I’ve had the contrary experience actually… even more so than actually breaking the zerg down, spreading the action throughout the zones is very viable tactical wise, and is also healthy for lag.

Most of us roamers don’t enjoy sPVP. We don’t like arenas.. what we really love is roaming the WvW maps.

When revived from downed state, player is snared and only benefits from 50% of his stats for X amount of time; 10 seconds maybe.

Aeonblade.8709:

Convenant.7092:

Please make it so when a player is revived from downed state; he has 50% less stats.

How about we just remove downed state altogether?

They won’t; they’re too proud of it.

Please make it so when a player is revived from downed state; he has 50% less stats.

CreativeAnarchy.6324:

Convenant.7092:

CreativeAnarchy.6324:

Slamz.5376:

CreativeAnarchy.6324:

Gates should absolutely go down quick to a zerg if you are not there to defend.

No one to not enought to use siege on the rams is your sides fault.

You can say this but the end result is going to be mindless zergs following each other around the map capping each other in rotation because there simply aren’t enough players willing to sit in a tower waiting for an attack to arrive, getting no rewards while everyone else is speeding towards realm rank 100 and getting a ton of loot in the circular zerg.

People WILL rush to the defense of a tower that’s under attack but when zergs break through reinforced doors in under 60 seconds, there’s no time.

“Small group play” in context of WvW really means “PvDoor”. Either there’s enough time for defense to show up or you are just avoiding PvP.

If you people are not setting up scouts to defend a target, it is your fault.

We had perm scouts in SoR hills all weekend and I don’t think it flipped more than once.

Your server organization is the problem. You need to set up a schedule and have everyone rotate through that assignment. If your server doesn’t care to do that, your server doesn’t want to win.

This isn’t a ANet needs to fix problem, this is a player mentality problem.

If you want to argue that there should be rewards for scouting, yea, I can agree with that. That job is a bore and not very profitable but that is a different matter.

Again.. you’re missing the point.

Your point is you don’t like zergs.

No.. read the topic..

CreativeAnarchy.6324:

Slamz.5376:

CreativeAnarchy.6324:

Gates should absolutely go down quick to a zerg if you are not there to defend.

No one to not enought to use siege on the rams is your sides fault.

You can say this but the end result is going to be mindless zergs following each other around the map capping each other in rotation because there simply aren’t enough players willing to sit in a tower waiting for an attack to arrive, getting no rewards while everyone else is speeding towards realm rank 100 and getting a ton of loot in the circular zerg.

People WILL rush to the defense of a tower that’s under attack but when zergs break through reinforced doors in under 60 seconds, there’s no time.

“Small group play” in context of WvW really means “PvDoor”. Either there’s enough time for defense to show up or you are just avoiding PvP.

If you people are not setting up scouts to defend a target, it is your fault.

We had perm scouts in SoR hills all weekend and I don’t think it flipped more than once.

Your server organization is the problem. You need to set up a schedule and have everyone rotate through that assignment. If your server doesn’t care to do that, your server doesn’t want to win.

This isn’t a ANet needs to fix problem, this is a player mentality problem.

If you want to argue that there should be rewards for scouting, yea, I can agree with that. That job is a bore and not very profitable but that is a different matter.

Again.. you’re missing the point.

CreativeAnarchy.6324:

Convenant.7092:

Again; this is to remind to you that this topic aims to address the general direction of which ANet would like to take GW2. Not just concrete solutions.

They already said they view WvW as large forces fighting, not small scale teams.

What really needs to change?

I don’t think they ever meant this to be 100 people balling up into a 300 range radius. At least not according to their server capacity; the lag we’ve been getting.

Again; this is to remind to you that this topic aims to address the general direction of which ANet would like to take GW2. Not just concrete solutions.

Agree completely! zergballs aren’t fun for anybody.

Valid points; though point remains… it shouldn’t be a PVdoor game! GW2’s too awesome for that..

Any response on ANet regarding how they view this issue?

Nauda.3678:

The only point you mention that is not opinion based is about lag. But that problem is getting less and less serious over time because people get better hardware and the game gets optimised more. I can play WvW with 80 vs. 80 zergfiths with my 3 year old pc with details higher than recommende and have about 25fps in realy big battles(with some rare 20fps spikes). Outside of big fight i have up to 60fps. So lag/bad fps are a problem but it’ll get better over time. Everything else you mentioned is opinion based and so there’s no right or wrong. It still doesn’t change the fact that a lot of people like 80vs80 and zerging in general. Nothing provides a better WvW feeling for me than laying siege to a keep with 80 players that is defenden by 80 players. It sometimes takes hours of attacks and counterattacks, a lot of siege and some good tactic to take a well defendes keep.

And a lot of people DON’T like 80 vs 80 zerging. I just fail to see how do you enjoy 5 seconds skill lag, massive frame rate lag, amongs other technical issues. Plus the gameplay is horrendus..

Ungood.3054:

I like larger groups. It gives that epic feel to it. That legion of people, that feeling of massive Siege Warfare that WvWvW is supposed to be about.

The truth is, If Anet wanted everyone to run in >20 man teams and kill each other wantonly across a field in skirmishes , they would have made that the game objective.

They didn’t, they have a system in place that encourages larger groups of players to work together to capture a point or points.

You’re not seeing the T1 zergs. It’s not epic at all…

Nauda.3678:

Convenant.7092:

Please read the whole post. The idea is; even carebears hate 75v75 fights.

As mentioned in my post above: A lot of people DO like zerging for different reasons. Please don’t assume that everyone hates zergfights. Some people just don’t have the skill to fight in a serious small scale battle for example but zergs allow them to experience some epic fights and get them lootbags. I also like to defend a keep with only a few people for a long time and other parts of wvw. But without big zergs WvW would lack a part that i and many others realy like.

As mentionned above… read.. the.. god*am.. original post.

Heya; if anyone wants to organize some smaller-scale fights by pitching all the small-scale fans in one zone, send us a whisper and we’ll gladly follow the action.

Evalakitten480:

Zerging is boring, slow, and drags me down to 7 fps.

Truthfully, I haven’t been playing WvW much lately (or gw in general) because my computer (that I spent nearly $3000 on a year ago) has a mini-stroke anytime a group of 60+ are even nearby. I love the lootbags, don’t get me wrong, but I find myself crashing before I can even pick them up! lol

Eva, that is precisely my point. If you were to fight two groups of 30 instead of a single group of 60, it would be equally rewarding, with less lag.

Master of Timespace.2548:

Carebears like both zerging and the item mall, so what do you expect? Zerging is NOT going to be tuned down.

Please read the whole post. The idea is; even carebears hate 75v75 fights.

Jacbo.7598:

Convenant.7092:

Yes, I suppose that that’s about the only time RUN will ever even get close to winning a fight vs us.

Close to winning? We’d make mince meat of that spider boss. Wouldn’t know what hit him. Or her. It.

But if we’re going to exchange words rather than fisticuffs, then for your statement to hold water AoN may need to engage things besides PUGs that get left behind while stealthing in the opposite direction. :P

Lol bring it up. your 20, against our 5. anytime

SmokeyNYY.7841:

isn’t this what spvp is for?

No, otherwise we’d be doing sPVP, why?

Jacbo.7598:

Best of luck organizing this. I suggest no gear, no weapons, 3v3 tag team royal rumble in the northwest BL spiders. First team to die to spider boss loses.

Yes, I suppose that that’s about the only time RUN will ever even get close to winning a fight vs us.

If you’re sick of this zergfest and you’d like to come have some real challenge or fights, whisper me ingame and we can arrange fights, skirmishes or simply go in the same zone to stray away from the zerg.

Thanks!

Please read the whole post. It’s worth it.

Teamkiller.4315:

Fighting in or against zergs of 70+ is not fun for me.

So yes, I agree with this.

That having been said, if you have anything near equal numbers and the enemy is running in one zerg of 70, it’s really really easy to beat them. You might not ever beat them in direct combat until you consolidate your own forces, but you will be capping much more than they are even if you split your forces just into two parts.

Beating the zerg is not the point, though. Beating them in a fun, un-laggy manner is.

Mogar.9216:

Anet want zergs. I don’t like it but I see the reason behind it. People who zerg are the 90% of the wvw players they pay the bills. Keep the little fish(zerglings) happy the sharks (roamers) will take care of themselves.

That’s exactly what I detail in my post. Even that 90% does not want 80 man zergs. They want 30 or 40 man zergs.

Y – Just quit the game then, if you’re unhappy.

X – GW2 is, according to me, the greatest MMORPG released in the past few years, and nothing will outmatch it in the foreseeable future. The combat mechanics are great, the flow is great, fighting is fun. Abstraction is once again important. I’m simply stating that zerging takes away from the combat mechanic, the manifesto, the flow, the fighting, the smoothness and the epic, immersive feel of the game and turns it into button smashing, lagging and un-epic feel. I believe this game could be great, given several small changes.

Y – What are you talking about? Zergs are exactly what creates an epic, massive feel to WvW.

X – Again, I’m calling for abstraction. I did not say zergs should not exist, or do not provide what I stated above. I’m stating that past a certain point, it stops being so. When a 30 person zerg and another 30 person zerg collide, there is most definitely an epic feel to it, much more so than a 80 man zerg taking down, undefended, a keep, or that 80 man zerg occasionally (very rarely) runs into another 80 man zerg, creating massive, huge, unplayable, frustrating lag that reminds us of the imperfections and technical issues of the game.

Y – So you meakittenerg is still fun and fulfills its role, but has a certain threshold that makes it not so fun? And do you mean all those people complaining about ANet’s servers are being crybabies?

X – Yes. ArenaNet’s servers are fine to handle any reasonable amount of fighting. It’s simply the sheer size of these zergs that are causing these problems. If the zone were to thin out, skirmishes would be more present, with less lag.

Y – Okay. All this talk is great, but please give some concrete solutions.

X – In the forseeable future, I propose 3 solutions that will not require drastic action, such as changing the maps. First, allow the formation of smaller “warband” parties of 20 people. That’s step 1, and will allow the masses to participate in spreading out tactically the zone. Next, increase the AoE cap to 10. This will greatly solve the “stacking up” into a blob issue that is currently a norm in the higher tier servers. This tactic is nor fun, nor realistic. Third, give incentive for smaller groups to skirmish, such as a reward system that splits WXP rather than giving it equally.

Y – That last point.. it’s contrary to ANet’s philosophy.

X – Yes, and I’m a big fan of that philosophy. However, let’s face it. Ultimately, this game would be more fun that way. It would allow the combat mechanics to fully be used in depths, and allow several ranges of players to enjoy the game, which is also in their philosophy. Not all of us want to be in the main zerg.

Y – Well thanks for this discussion. Even if there may be some flaws, I believe that the general idea makes perfect sense. Promoting a less zergy game would 1) appeal more to the masses, since zergs would be ranging from 20-40 people instead of 70+. 2) This means less lag in general. 3) this would also allow a new layer of depths and need of coordination. 4) this would greatly please the players that are more oriented towards fighting other players, rather than playing siege. 5) siege-fighting would be still present, and equally rewarding.

Bottom line, let’s face it. 40 + 20 + 20 is more fun than 75 + 5. Against 40, we feel overwhelmed, epic and part of something awesome. Against 75, we just feel laggy, powerless, slow.

Thanks for reading!

Zerg

Y – One might say zerging is a legitimate tactic, and being most effective, is certainly valid and should be used.

X – But zerging is not effective at all; using 80 people to capture a supply camp is not a sign of efficiency, rather the contrary.

Y – If it’s so inefficient, why do the top tier servers use it? It MUST be effective.

X – Because of several reasons. First off, out there, some players still play for their server; aka run supplies, use trebs, use siege, backcap supply camps, scout, roam the map. Second, simply because it’s the easiest thing to do, and if the other servers are zerging, there is no reason our own shouldn’t.

Y – Well you just answered your own problem… if it’s easy to do, and allows a certain degree of efficiency, and everybody’s doing it, then what’s wrong?

X – Because of a simple reason people lose track of when they are given small incentives such as WXP ranks; fun. Many WvW players argue that these past few weeks have not been fun at all. Logging in to run in a big zerg-train capturing undefended objectives is definitely boring. On the other side, why attempt to fight in a defended zone when you can just shift to the next zone, and capture, undefended, other keeps?

Y – Again, you’re citing legitimate tactics to win.

X – Yes, but ask yourself what do you play this game for? Is it to win, or is it to have fun? I believe that if the game is done right, winning IS fun. In the current state of the game, winning is.. not necessarily fun at all. Shouldn’t the game mechanics be adapted to encourage skirmishes, dividing troops to various sectors of the map, thus bringing so much more depths and complexity to WvW?

Y – But zerging has always been present in other WvW/RvR/Open world PVP games. Nothing can stop this tactic, because it allows the masses to play. So you’re telling me all past games were not fun?

X – In this debate, it is important to be able to utilize abstraction. Nothing is absolute. Yes, zerging has been present in other MMOs, but never has a zerg been as overwhelming as it is presently in GW2. This is due to several things.

Y – Which are..?

X – The design of the maps, which favor chokepoints and the proximity of objectives. This ultimately leads to the fact that a single large force can cover much of the whole map. Then, the AoE cap limit and the downed system, which makes the zerg nearly unkillable. In other games, yes, a zerg is big, but it is possible to pick people off and kill people. With the downed system, it is extremely easy for a zerg to stay cohesive and strong.

Y – You are just repeating what has been said already.

X – That is untrue. My argument resides in the fact that WvW would be more fun if the zerginess became still present, but less overwhelming, with more incentive to detach from the zerg, or forming several large groups of 30, rather than a single force of 80 people. It is a philosophical point of view; I want people to realize what this game COULD become with a little help from the developers

Jinks.2057:

Niim.9260:

The issue we found in lower tiers is that the WvW population is too low. Sure the zergs are smaller, but there are portions in the day where you spend more time looking for a fight, then fighting.

Even T3 was getting weak at parts of the day, was still good during prime time, but late afternoon was far to slow.

Most teams are going to be on during prime time.

Also last time I saw AoN y’all ran 20+

You’re insane. We don’t even have 20 members.

Acelerion.6820:

Markadis.9012:

Define zerg. 20? 30? 40 or more people?

2x whatever it is you’re fighting is zerging someone. Everyone does it intentionally or not.

>10 is a zerg.

Keep it to 5, people

I disagree; the zerg is the main mass of player of a zone.

This zerging thing has been extremely bad and sad. Why make a game rich in combat mechanics just to promote 80+ man zergs?

Meanwhile, ANet sits quiet on the issue; they don’t tell us which direction they’d like to take WvW.

Zergs running around mindless. Anyone who tells me it takes 80+ people to take down a supply camp and calls that organization is just.. well..

Makes perfect sense, Habib took care of the technical difficulties the game was having. Now we just need content. Welcome!

Hi,

The community has some questions to ask you on regard of which direction you’d like to take GW2. You’ve been known to have an opinion on things, even if you’re new at them. We would like to know more about you, or more precisely, how you regard WvW.

1) How much do you think WvW is important to GW2? Do you think the game should focus on developping WvW primarily; aka that WvW is at the core of the future of GW2?

2) How much do you know about WvW, and what past games have you played before?

3) This is a long question regarding WvW dynamics; What do you think of the current zergs running amist the game?

One could argue that zerging creates a massive feel, or simply, there are no rules in WVW. Others could argue that zerging takes away from what makes GW2 so great; the subtleties of the combat, rich in dynamics, all dumbed down to lagging and pressing all buttons? Should action be oriented towards a more small-scale, but ever-present state or should it be always one single huge zerg versus another single huge zerg?

More specifically, do you think anything is WRONG with the current state of WvW, or do you think it is fine as it is?

4) As a content designer, how much of a team do you have with you? And how big is that team as compared to other aspects of the game (PVE, sPvP)

I feel it’s important you answer to these questions, as it will clarify which direction you’d like to take WvW. I feel that Habib’s goal was mainly fixing culling. What are yours?

Thanks!

Baelnorn.5710:

Hey, we are just playing the game ANet wants us to play. If they make zerging and karma-training the most rewarding thing to do, then that’s what we’ll do. Taking the path of least resistance has always been human nature and the game designers really should have expected that. With WXP they just added another incentive to play “effective”, not “smart”.

Yes, and I suppose you have fun doing so? I suppose this is what’ll make you keep playing this game for the years to come? That’s almost pathetic… just because ANet messed up doesn’t mean we, as a community, should destroy ourselves by making WXP > fun..

Isaac.6041:

Uh no. Many people respect karma trains and PVDooring because it benefits them. They get karma, they get gold, they get XP. They could care less about your skill.

Nice, and they’re going to take that karma, gold and XP and do what? More karma-training? That’s so fun!!!!!!! TELL ME MORE ABOUT HOW YOU RUN AROUND WITH 80 OTHER PEOPLE TAKING UNDEFENDED KEEPS!

No… ArenaNet clearly stated multiple times that this was to get you that “finding a treasure” sense. Which is completely stupid.

[AoN] could use you. We’re on FA; we can 5v20, 10v40; and we need absolutely top-notch players to fill in a few spots. If you’re really interested, hit me up ingame! Thanks.

[AoN] needs you to continue 5v20+, or 10v40. We can arrange your transfer in the event that we feel you’re serious. Thanks

Makes no sense… and I’m against anything that adds PVE to WvW.

Hi, this is a GS warrior with 3 other people vs 15+

Insane damage, insane survivability, insane mobility. But one necro will make you die without being able to do anything.

1) Giving more stats to players is never the solution; I shouldn’t lose a 1v1 because he’s outmanned and I’m not.

2) It’s extremely detrimental to gameplay. A team should never actually STRIVE to be outmanned in order to gain bonuses.

3) More stuff like this to make this “fair” doesn’t promote any form of strategy.

3) “Divine” intervention in a WvW setting is not fun at all. PVE mobs aren’t either. We like our sandbox full of players, without a God-sent buff that massively increases stats.

The real solution? Give more incentives for small groups killing larger groups, and to make it so outmanned just means there’s more people to kill.

People complaining about zergs in a WvW game is one of the dumbest things I’ve ever came across. What do you expect everybody to do? Run around solo accomplishing nothing? Zergs make WvW fun for many, many people. I don’t think this game should hold your hand to make it so it’s “fair and fun” for you.

Instead, make those zergs manageable by reducing culling and making small-man play more powerful versus those zergs. Only then will outmanned buff not be a problem.

Jscull.2514:

Do you [AoN] guys run small mans daily?

Yes, and we’d love to fight you! Come to T3.