Guild Wars 2

Behellagh.1468:

DarkSpirit.7046:

Behellagh.1468:

We don’t need someone building the equivalent of a high frequency trading program for the TP. So I’m all for establishing a mirror of the TP state that’s updated only say 10 times an hour and have an API that can query that. But all transactions still must be done in game.

Who has the time to add these things in the game? Considering that TP bugs from the release day, a year ago, are still not fixed.

A more realistic approach is to make use of third party devs to add these features as external programs.

Which can be abused. Is that so hard to understand? Hey lets write one where we can enter a maximum buy amount we are willing to spend and then have it poll the TP so every time we are overcut it would cancel our previous offer and overcut the current lead until we hit the limit we set? Now imagine 1,000 of these helpful external programs hitting the TP at the same time. Or 5,000. Or 10,000. TP would come to a crawl, we’ll start having buy timers in place like we have sell timers.

So assuming that you are right and we don’t have this feature. What do I do if I put a huge amount of gold to buy the precursor that I want? I would have to keep checking every few seconds to make sure that nobody undercut me. When my friends message me to help them with the game, I would have to refuse them and just check the TP over and over. So instead of actually playing the game, people would have to spam the TP over and over to get the items that they want at the best price. Is that fun?

I don’t think so. I would rather ArenaNet adds that notification feature into the game itself. But if they don’t have the resources, I would rather have them provide the API for other devs to implement it.

And what you say about the TP coming to a crawl is simply not true if they separate app calls into a different server.

Buttercup.5871:

Don’t deny your in-game advantage while stating it in the same thread. Just don’t go there.

Everything is an in-game advantage and that includes the ability to use wiki, gw2spidy, many other websites and apps etc.

Are all of these built into the game? Obviously not. But for those people who know where to get the information and learnt how to use the FREE tools that are available to EVERYONE would gain an obvious advantage.

You can choose not to use them, that is your choice. Personally that sounds silly to me, but it is your choice.

Behellagh.1468:

We don’t need someone building the equivalent of a high frequency trading program for the TP. So I’m all for establishing a mirror of the TP state that’s updated only say 10 times an hour and have an API that can query that. But all transactions still must be done in game.

Who has the time to add these things in the game? Considering that TP bugs from the release day, a year ago, are still not fixed.

A more realistic approach is to make use of third party devs to add these features as external programs.

aeneq.1760:

My fundamental issue is that you cannot and should not provide an out of the game experience that’s superior to the in game one. Atm this is what is happening when it comes to browsing but this is a grey area for now.

Then sorry but I don’t think you are being realistic. In a perfect world, ArenaNet devs would have infinite resources to implement whatever features we can dream of in the game. But we are not in a perfect world are we?

ArenaNet devs have higher priority bugs to fix and features to add. This is why they decided to release APIs to invite third party devs to add features to the game through external programs. Furthermore, their APIs have ALREADY given a superior game experience by providing information not available to the in-game client which I have mentioned before.

Not sure how you could jump server to server since questing is time limited? Was that a limitation they added after, in which case it speaks to my original interpretation of said functionality.

Guesting time is not limited but you are only limited to 2 guest servers within 24 hours per account. Having multiple accounts, like I do, would circumvent this easy limitation.

Current bots are limited in what they can do due to limitations in the API as we touched on already, removing these limitations will make the issue several magnitudes worse.

Like I have already mentioned, bots emulate the game client, legit third party programs don’t so they operate differently. If ArenaNet has a legit TP API server for apps only, then both of them would be hitting different servers.

Granted you can do a more advanced bot using key macros and more advanced communication between those programs and the bot however since there is no way to “specify” which item you want to sell youll have to rely in image recognition and not all items in the game have unique art (also frankly a selling bot is not that great, you wont relist items due to the fees and adding new items to handle undercutters will just make the price go down and your items stay longer).

Then simply add more analysis routines to the bot. It should be quite easy to do.

Musing:
Lets say you provide this API, you also provide application keys for unique monitoring/quota to handle system load and abuse monitoring. What would stop a gold farmer to register for a large quota license and then spam the TP for every item he can flip for a profit?

Didn’t ArenaNet already said that they are going to use OAuth2 authentication and limit quota access through registered developer keys to their API?

One option could be to say that large quota licenses are not allowed to use the buy/sell API but even this is not a good option since a bot could be designed to use a large quota license for information and another (or several) for buying/selling

Like I have said, a bot and a legit app would work differently. A bot would try to emulate a game client and a legit app would declare itself to be an external program. A bot would not have a developer key and a legit app would need one. A legit apps would be bound by quota using the legit API while a bot would be using the game client API.

aeneq.1760:

Wouldnt work as it is now, what people dont understand is that the API used by the 3rd party tools are the same as the one used by the ingame client, if you want to add a delay to the information you would suffer the same within the game.

That is right. This api would be what a bot would use to “pretend” to be the game client. Legit third party tools have no choice at the moment but to use the same api.

Which is also why I have been asking ArenaNet, for a long time now, to release a TP api server, using an official TP api for apps, to better control app traffic.

Magnus Steelgrave.6580:

The trading post text alert programs are kinda like text alert programs people use for fantasy sports… They’re perfectly legal but they ruin the integrity (or whats left of guild wars 2 TP’s integrity……… yeah… anyway…) of your fantasy league by making it so people don’t have to pay any actual live attention to the league or TP, just jump to attention and hop on whenever they get a text… is it legal, yes… kinda poor sportsmanship though if you ask me but a good way to go for the gw2’s general theme of hitting the path of least resistance.

Unlike you, I don’t enjoy checking my bids every few seconds so I am glad they are there so that I can actually play the game while making sure that I can get the items that I want.

It is a smarter way of playing the TP and since the programs are free the playing field has always been level. If people choose not learn to use them then they deserve to do it the grindy manual way. Those people who choose to learn would benefit from them. Same with everything else, knowing to search the wiki would give an advantage but some people are just too lazy to even do that.

aeneq.1760:

I’m not debating the benefit of such a tool, that is quite obvious. However such benefits should be realized within the game so all can benefit and not just the l33t people who know the various 3rd party tools?

But like I have said, such benefits are not being realized within the game because ArenaNet devs are swarmed with other work. Third party developers also cannot help to realize this because ArenaNet has not released any official public API for them and their overly strict TOS/EULA prevents any legit third party dev from working on the problems.

Temples is also a bad example, that “feature” only occurred after guesting was introduced and was primarily a means to combat lack of interest in the temple chains and with the design of the game its hard to implement it within the game itself.

And frankly the “benefit” of knowing what events/temples are active is not really that great. However the TP is a totally different beast…

The advantage is much bigger than most people realized. You can now use it to always get the champion events that you want by guesting. For the temp content, I went around from server to server, killing the karka queen over and over as one example. The amount of gold that I got out of this little advantage is quite significant I can tell you that.

edit: True bot applications would never be released, only used within closed circles. Also a TP app is not hard to write as it is currently, making the API easier would only allow for more “private” apps to abuse it, and don’t kid yourself it would be abused.

edit2: Btw the backend server load would increase drastically due to the increased workload form different clients polling for updates all the time, as it is atm that workload is managed by proxy, not sure ANet would be willing to support the amount of traffic we are talking about

This is already happening as Zicore has released his TP app and more people have started to use it or a modified version of his open source app. I also wouldn’t be surprised if some people have modified his code into working bots.

I can already see ArenaNet doing work on their TP back end to limit the queries imposed by such apps. I have not tried his newer version but his older versions are quite spammy.

Personally, I consider such access to the TP servers by emulating the game client to be bot-like and many bots actually use the same methods to access the TP. Having both the in-game client and bots/apps spamming the same TP server is not a good idea if they want to maintain a high quality TP experience. ArenaNet should eventually close that kind of access for bots/third party apps and release a public API (through an app-only api server) for legit apps if they do care about our TP experience. The TP API server would serve app requests from its cached db and only grab data from the game TP server at a fixed controlled manner. This should improve the overall performance of the TP in the game.

One can also say the same for most of the api that they are going to release. With the events api, I can find out which boss events are going on at which server so that already gives an advantage. Furthermore, I can see ALL events around my map without being just close to them. That in itself is definitely another advantage not offered to the game client.

What is the option then without such API? Anyone who wants to know if a particular temple is open, or if a boss event is happening, would have to post in the forums and wait for an answer, if he even gets one before the event is over. Is that a better gaming experience?

As for the TP, if I really want to get that precusor, I would have to keep spamming the TP and check if anyone has outbid me over and over every few seconds. This is how it would be done without an app at the moment. I can’t actually play the game if I really want a particular item in the TP for the best price. Is this a better gaming experience?

The purpose of such API is to enhance the gaming experience, not bring it down to the worse possible level. Just because ArenaNet doesn’t have the resources to give us every feature that we ever want, does not imply that third party developers must be barred from helping out.

If they don’t improve on the game play experience, then only the botters and hackers, those people whose actions that they have failed to stopped because of their limited resources, would reap the benefits. Because truly legit third party devs are not going to release any apps that would violate the rules and implicate themselves. This is why, unlike Zicore, I would never release my TP app as it is with the current TP api. This is why after working on his own app for almost a year, releasing it for free along with open source, many players in the community gets to curse him as a sign of appreciation for his efforts. Furthermore, he runs the risk of violating any EULA/TOS from ArenaNet. It is just not worth it.

aeneq.1760:

And thats where we diverge, the current API and internal mechanics has been in play since the game went live, no changes in the ingame browser that I can recall (except previewing).

With the upcoming asian release I am certain no fundamental change in EXISTING functionality will happen in the near future. Heck you posted your first suggestion over two months ago and there has been no action…

Instead of asking for 3rd party API you should be asking for an updated internal TP browser that offers what you want.

What I want is going to far outstrip their resources more than just providing a third party TP api so much so that it would make more sense for them to simply provide the api and leave it to the imaginations of third party devs just like they did with the other third party APIs that they already have plans to release.

The external app shouldn’t be emulating the game client like a bot but that is how it is with the current TP api.

aeneq.1760:

I am extremely familiar with the current TP API… In its current form its too tied into the player character mechanics to just release an API for it, you would have to not only add an auth mechanism but change the behavior on several levels.

Also in case you werent aware, the same API is used atm whenever you do ANY TP ingame tasks, lookup, browsing etc etc. The only limiting factor is selling which is not possible.

Obviously the current unofficial TP api is sorely lacking and I am well aware of that, otherwise I wouldn’t be starting this thread in the first place, would I?

I also don’t expect them to release the current TP api as it is. It doesn’t support the mobile scenario, at least not in any legal way that is clearly not a violation of their own rules. It barely supports even the desktop scenario well enough.

If they were to release an official TP api, I presume that they would do a good job and release a proper one.

Healix.5819:

It’s entirely possible, at this current time, to play the TP from a mobile device with 100% functionality. I doubt if anyone’s has actually made an app to do it though and it would most likely be classified as a violation.

Which is why any legit dev should not attempt to build one without the blessings of ArenaNet. Thus, my thread: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/bltc/ArenaNet-should-release-public-API-for-the-TP/first#post2656449

DarkSpirit.7046:

Can you search back items? Can you filter armor by weight classes?

Yes, but’s that probably just me. When I finally get around to it…

I wonder what ArenaNet’s stance is though, on a little TP fixing/improvements.

Yeah I dont know why, some of these annoying bugs may have been around since release. My guess is that they probably have higher priority work items on their plate.

Khisanth.2948:

DarkSpirit.7046:

Khisanth.2948:

MrIllusion.5304:

Being able to trade via a third-party app would require some stringent security checks.

You’d have to provide login details for the app to work and access your ingame info.

I don’t know if I’m comfortable with anyone other than Anet doing this.

But if Anet is developing this, I’d check it out.

Same here, I would be writing the app myself if that were to happen. Even then unless they also provide a sandbox for testing the code that is still very dangerous.

Fair enough, which is why some apps also released their source code as open source. You can look through them, build and run them from their sources if you prefer.

Testing code on live data is still very very bad.

Since you have their source code, you are free to change it anyway you want. You don’t have to test on live data if you dont want to.

Khisanth.2948:

MrIllusion.5304:

Being able to trade via a third-party app would require some stringent security checks.

You’d have to provide login details for the app to work and access your ingame info.

I don’t know if I’m comfortable with anyone other than Anet doing this.

But if Anet is developing this, I’d check it out.

Same here, I would be writing the app myself if that were to happen. Even then unless they also provide a sandbox for testing the code that is still very dangerous.

Fair enough, which is why some apps also released their source code as open source. You can look through them, build and run them from their sources if you prefer.

jazzllanna.1278:

I am not asking for them to be protected lol. I am asking that programs outside of the game used to track the trading post and text people be looked at if not discontinued. If someone wants to log into the game and watch a bid and refresh and post them then by all means do it. If there are multiple people bidding on it then by all means do it, but the use of a program outside of the game should not be allowed.

And why should they be discontinued? So that everyone would have to manually check their bids every few seconds so as to not to lose their chance at getting a precursor?

If you prefer to do it manually that is your call, but don’t force the rest of us to waste our time. Some of us prefer to actually play the game, than to sit there monitoring bids repeatedly.

Like I have already said, these programs are free, so the playing field is level. If you choose not to use them, that is your choice but not everyone would agree that constant manual monitoring of their TP bids is a fun way to play this game.

jazzllanna.1278:

I will leave it at that. I am not looking to flip anything or am I in a bidding war on any item right now. I am bringing this up because I don’t see how a program that is sending texts based on auction prices is allowed. There may be bots or it could be this texting but more and more people are seeing odd behavior in the tp.

I just don’t think you should be able to use an outside source to monitor the game without actually being logged in and playing. I don’t think that is a far fetched idea.

Maybe you do not realize it, but there are already free programs to do that. For example, this one: http://notifier.zicore.de/

Since the programs are free anyway, I see a level playing field. I would rather be playing the game and let the program monitor for any outbid attempts. My competitors can do the same, but if they prefer to manually check every few seconds instead, be my guest.

aeneq.1760:

Sorry but in order to properly support a public API and put in mechanics for protection against bots (access limitations) they would have to redo the whole TP backend/API. I.E. not gonna happen…

Are you speaking for ArenaNet then? Do you have technical details on their existing infrastructure and details on their resources?

They have already planned to release a number of APIs : https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/community/api

And their future plan upon release includes providing OAuth2 authentication with registered developer keys and quota. Any api that they release would have to be protected against bots, not just the TP. If what you say is right, then they shouldn’t be releasing any api.

Why shouldn’t anyone be allowed to outbid anyone else? It is their gold after all. Even if I do not have any program to alert me to outbid attempts, I can still check every few seconds manually. Yes I know that is a terrible grind but if hundreds of gold is involved for a precursor, many people would be willing to do that.

Outbidding is part of the TP, so I don’t understand why people have to come to this forum to vent claiming it is because their competitors cheated with unproven scripts and bots, so as to give themselves a ‘pat on the back’ as to why they lost the bid. The guy who won the bid might be thinking that you ARE the bot, but he still won the bid because he was persistent enough.

Magnus Steelgrave.6580:

DarkSpirit.7046:

Magnus Steelgrave.6580:

cranked.3812:

There is something inherently wrong with what you are asking. I am not trying to turn this into a TP flippers argument one way or the other.

BUT, do we really need an app to allow people to spend all day every day no matter where they are flipping stuff on the TP? I thought this was an MMO anyway not a stock market simulation game.

No offense, but this is a terrible idea.

Fully agree… unless its an app that’s giving the same tp interface with live times but no actual trading function I couldn’t see this being a good thing considering how big of a leg up it would give a fairly small segment of the population.

Then you must really hate gw2spidy because it has a different interface from the TP.

The game needs to be improved more than the limited TP interface that we have in the game so please don’t set the TP interface so the only good acceptable interface because it is very limited and buggy. Don’t get me started on the problems with the TP interface.

If the TP interface in the game is your favorite interface in the game then you are too easily satisfied. Can you search back items? Can you filter armor by weight classes? There are so many problems and even bugs with it and ArenaNet devs seem to be too busy to fix them. We should allow third party developers to develop apps for the TP to improve the situation. Sorry if I like to see improvements rather than maintaining the status quo.

I NEVER said I liked it so don’t put words in my mouth… I just don’t want added functionality for a mobile app… there’s no reason to encourage MORE bots than there already are speculated to be on the tp… its all about keeping things consistant… I fully agree the in game interface needs an overhaul but that has nothing to do with the fact that this never needs to ever happen.

There are big differences between a mobile app and a bot so do not mix them up in the same sentence.

There are already free programs that anyone can download to enhance much needed functionalities of the TP. Since they are not bots, they work as external programs to the game client.

In a perfect world, ArenaNet would have unlimited resources to improve their game and everyone would get what they want. However, ArenaNet devs do not seem to have the time to enhance the TP to an extend that we need, so they require third party developers to help out. And no, I do not think that checking for undercuts every few seconds, so that I can buy the items that I want, is acceptable.

lordkrall.7241:

DarkSpirit.7046:

So you are saying that since they have not released any public API for the TP, the TP is now absolutely free of any bots? Right….carry on with your delusions.

That was not what he was saying at all.
What he was saying was that with a public API it would be MUCH easier to create bots, not that no bots exists right now.

The easiest way to write any program is to simply call a library function already written up by someone else. For example something like, List<Item> getMyBuyList() which would presumably return your existing buy transactions as a list of items.

Once the first hacker finds out how to write a bot, he would write a wrapper library for the other hackers to use so they can build on top of it. This has already happened!

As for ArenaNet to release their web api, your program would have to make a http call and write some routines to parse a string (probably in JSON) something like this:

“item_id”:“24”,“name”:“Sealed Package of Snowballs”,“description”:“Open this package to create several snowballs that can hit anyone else holding a snowball.”,“type”:“Consumable”,“level”:“0”,“rarity”:“Basic”,“vendor_value”:“0”,“game_types”:[“Dungeon”,
“Pve”,
“Wvw”],“flags”:[],“restrictions”:[],“consumable”:{"type":"Generic"}

Which do you think makes it is easier to program a bot? Obviously the bot wrapper library that is already written by someone else would make it easier to program a bot, so releasing a web api would not make writing a bot any more easier. Those who claim otherwise do not know how a web api works. Furthermore, using ArenaNet web api, when it is released, would require a developer key and be under a quota system so your api calls are limited. This means the developer has to be registered and its api usage monitored. The bot library, however, pretends to be the game client itself and does not require registration. Obviously any bot writer would prefer himself and his bot to be “cloaked” as a legit “player” rather than being registered and have its bot usage monitored.

Leuphe Rykkyr.1602:

So people can more easily write bots to automate TP buying/selling with minimal effort.

SEEMS LEGIT

So you are saying that since they have not released any public API for the TP, the TP is now absolutely free of any bots? Right….carry on with your delusions.

Maybe you just don’t understand the differences between apis, bots, and third-party programs. APIs are meant to be used for external programs, these are utility programs that are meant to run outside of the game. They are highly regulated through the server with developer API keys and quota. Bots, on the other hand, pretend to be the game itself so they don’t need any developer keys. They hide in the shadows, pretending to be legit players, because they are illegal. They don’t pretend to be an external program and they certainly do not require any published api from ArenaNet to work.

I think that is actually a good feature. As a player, why am I not allowed to undercut other people’s undercuts? It is my gold afterall, if I am prepared to pay more for the items that I really want, why not?

The current TP interface has been buggy since release and it seems ArenaNet devs are too busy to fix them. For example, we still can’t use the filters to search for back items only and some of the search filters seem to be wrong (e.g. the Unlocks for dyes and recipes).

In the perfect world, I would like to be able to play the game and be notified if I want to raise my price should someone undercut me. I don’t want to have to keep checking for undercuts every few seconds to ensure that I get the items that I really want. I can’t be expected to do dungeons and check the TP while fighting a boss at the same time.

This is why I think releasing the API would good for the game as we would have app developers fill up this feature void that ArenaNet devs do not seem to have the time to do.

Magnus Steelgrave.6580:

cranked.3812:

There is something inherently wrong with what you are asking. I am not trying to turn this into a TP flippers argument one way or the other.

BUT, do we really need an app to allow people to spend all day every day no matter where they are flipping stuff on the TP? I thought this was an MMO anyway not a stock market simulation game.

No offense, but this is a terrible idea.

Fully agree… unless its an app that’s giving the same tp interface with live times but no actual trading function I couldn’t see this being a good thing considering how big of a leg up it would give a fairly small segment of the population.

Then you must really hate gw2spidy because it has a different interface from the TP.

The game needs to be improved more than the limited TP interface that we have in the game so please don’t set the TP interface so the only good acceptable interface because it is very limited and buggy. Don’t get me started on the problems with the TP interface.

If the TP interface in the game is your favorite interface in the game then you are too easily satisfied. Can you search back items? Can you filter armor by weight classes? There are so many problems and even bugs with it and ArenaNet devs seem to be too busy to fix them. We should allow third party developers to develop apps for the TP to improve the situation. Sorry if I like to see improvements rather than maintaining the status quo.

It is still much better than the Sentinel’s where there is no recipe in the first place. So you can’t craft the insignia and they don’t even drop anymore! That is just ridiculous.

Navzar.2938:

You can’t at the moment.

Actually you can, after logging in to the forums, try accessing this link:

https://tradingpost-live.ncplatform.net/search?text=&type=1&levelmin=0&levelmax=80

laokoko.7403:

Are you talking about an app that check item price. Or “actually trade” item without logging in. Interesting idea.

We already have many websites that check item price, for example gw2spidy. What would be more interesting is an app that actually trades items through a smart phone. Great if I can place limit buy/sell orders like I can with the stock market and have it tracks my profits/losses.

spacemayu.4817:

Bot owner reporting in I take it?

There is no evidence that it is a bot manipulating and not a human being. I know that it is emotionally easier to assume it is a bot though.

Unfortunately many of the mystic forge recipes are still shrouded in mystery and even the current information on the wiki is not entirely correct.

I may be wrong, but I assume ArenaNet would not release those information as they prefer players to experiment on the mystic forge and share info.

Faedrivin.5382:

Have the same for 43948, although 43949 seems to work. Error is:{"error":10,product,module,line,text

Not sure what you mean by 43949 seems to work. It still doesn’t work for me:
https://api.guildwars2.com/v1/item_details.json?item_id=43949

Same error as for 43948.

The first two issues seem to be a duplicate bug of what I have already mentioned here:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/community/api/Bug-in-Items-api/first#post2522785

I have yet to receive a reply from ArenaNet about that bug though.

I really enjoyed the Aspect Arena, so did many others. We are disappointed that the Aspect Arena is not included in the daily rotation.

Besides, Ellen won, Evon lost. We should be playing Ellen’s mini-game not Evon’s.

Katai.6240:

Bleh, Southsun was boring. It was either die at the 2-minute mark then wait 10 minutes for everyone else to die, or hoard rations and camp out in a secluded area for 20 mintes.

That’s what I do, I find a secluded spot and camp there till I die just to get the 15 games requirement for the achievement lol. It is too painful to play with limited arrows and always looking for rations etc, no offense to those who love the game, but it feels boring to me.

Karizee.8076:

Nabrok.9023:

I enjoyed this more than Southsun Survival (though I did like that too).

Why isn’t Aspect Arena in the mini-game rotation?

I imagine since it utilizes the aspect skills which the Zephyrites took with them when they left. Hopefully next time they come to trade with us we’ll get that game back.

Really enjoyed Aspect Arena

If that is the case, then why is Sanctum Sprint in the daily rotation? And Keg Brawl is a team based game, so not all the games in the rotation are single player.

I hate Southsun Survival and Aspect Arena happens to be my favorite mini-game. Thought it was good riddance for Evon and his sucky game when he lost. I voted for Ellen lol.

I am disappointed that my favorite mini game is not in the daily rotation. I initially thought that voting for Ellen would bring me more Aspect Arena than Southsun Survival. It now seems like Evon wins, no matter what.

Shouldn’t we have the Aspect Arena as part of the daily rotation? What do you think?

Oops I found a similar topic, moderators feel free to delete this one. Sorry.

The item id 43948 is returned by items.json but querying for it in https://api.guildwars2.com/v1/item_details.json?item_id=43948 returns an error.

Similarly for item id 43949.

famfamfam.9137:

The API servers are the authority for the data, so therefore should also be also be the authority for the allowed staleness of the data.

That may make sense with a traditional web server, serving static content from files but it may not make as much sense here. The problem with that is, does ArenaNet web server even know what the allowed staleness of the data should be? Even their items and recipes depend on their discovery by players, so how is their web server suppose to know when the responses are going to change?

This is why I suggested that the clients would be in a better position to know what they would be using the responses for and for some tasks, they really do not need the latest data. Furthermore, they always have the choice to get the latest data if they want to, but perhaps at the cost of a longer response time.

Thanks Drakma. I think you did excellent work on your website and many people (myself included) posted worse code publicly as our learning attempts.

I enjoy this thread too, it gives me the chance to vent what I have always had in my mind, without actually finding time in my busy schedules to do the work.

Drakma.1549:

In addition to the above, I also have some tricks that help to keep the data up-to-date. For instance, when a user uses my website to view item information, it will first check the API to see if the data has changed. If it has, it updates it before it presents it to the user. This keeps the frequently accessed data refreshed and the seldom or never accessed data the same. Lower bandwidth, less overhead.

By “user” you only meant a HTML browser right? From your website, the only JSON API you exposed are the ones for API statuses. Would you be planning to introduce JSON APIs on your website for clients to access your caches? You probably do not need to cache too far into the past. Furthermore, each server (including yours) do not need to support all of the APIs, as they can pick and choose which API they want to cache and re-propagate to requesting clients. We can share the load. You can also allocate your resources dynamically based on demand.

Finally, you mentioned that gw2stats.net is only one frame of reference. You are absolutely correct. I would love to be able to provide a service where you can run a script on your side and have it send data to gw2stats.net for a more “worldwide” representation of access to the GW2 API. If there is interest in that, I will be more than happy to provide it.

Or you can just share the parts of your code for the caching and status calculations so that every server would be processing them in the same way. There would be less work for you this way.

Healix.5819:

A 3rd party site could provide this functionality. Sites like gwstats.net are already constantly checking some of the APIs~, so sites like those could also provide a checksum or modified since.

The problem with gw2stats.net is that it shows the response times with reference from only one particular server. Furthermore, they do not cache and provide API responses back to other clients (only API statuses), so it is somewhat of a wasted bandwidth.

If we have a number of servers across the world that would cache and redistribute API responses that would have been more useful since the more popular responses would tend to be cached. With enough caches, even if the anet origin server goes down, clients can still operate in a limited fashion.

I agree that a new build doesn’t mean that there have been changes to whatever you’re querying the API for. The term “new build” can be ambiguous because I presume that ArenaNet has server and client builds and that they can patch their servers without needing to patch clients and vice versa. I may be wrong, but this would mean that client and server can have different build numbers and each can have a ‘new build’ at different times.

What you are proposing would be similar to the ETags feature mentioned by famfamfam. I have a few questions about your proposal:

1. What if certain api responses are fewer than 32 characters? Wouldn’t it be more efficient to just return the response than generating the MD5 checksum, and then returning them?

2. What about those APIs whose responses change often? Wouldn’t generating the MD5 checksum be quite redundant in those cases and be a further hit to the server performance?

3. Does this require all clients to be able to generate MD5 checksums from server responses or for the server to always return the MD5 checksum with each of its responses? If it is the former, that would be additional restrictions on the clients. If it is the latter, then the clients would have to remember and manage checksums.

4. What are the advantages/disadvantages of this approach over ETags?

famfamfam.9137:

If this is implemented API-side, it would make much more sense for it to be handled by ETags, If-None-Match and 304 responses. HTTP is a complex yet wonderful beast: http://www.mnot.net/cache_docs/

But as stated in your link, that is not a trivial task. Furthermore only arenanet origin servers would know if the content has changed so clients would have to query it. And if the request is authenticated or secure (i.e. https) it won’t be cached.

Clients may not always need the most up-to-date response, so I prefer to leave it to the clients to decide what they need. As mentioned in your link, ETags are useful in the case of serving static contents (i.e. files). However, the web server may not know enough about the dynamic content to generate them.

Instead of finding out if it is changed, why don’t you just pass the cached value back along with the age of the cached value.

Some clients may not mind an older value, sometimes, in return for a faster response time. How about creating a meta server that accepts a max_age, maximum age cached value parameter along with the web api call? If the meta server can satisfy the request on its own, then it will return its own cached value. Otherwise, it would have to fetch it from the other meta servers, or the ArenaNet server.

DarkSpirit.7046:

Healix is right. Bots can already auto undercut, buy and sell. Bot authors also share code and they have been working together to enhance their bots, on their own forums.

Dumbing down the API because of the fear of bots would just get you a ‘lol’ response from the bot community. Why would they need to go through an API that requires them to identify themselves with developer keys and a quota system, when they have always been able to perform all these things for free anyway. The only people you are going to hurt would be legit users.

If that is not enough, like I have said before, I am fine even if ArenaNet decides to charge for the usage of their APIs, just to discourage botters from using it even more. But this would deter free programs from circulating (unless the developer takes a monetary loss).

If we go with the subscription model, ArenaNet would need to declare that all other programmatic access to their Trading Post, outside of the game and their official API, be illegal and thus bannable. This means Ruben would have to decide if he wants to keep the gw2spidy website open by subscribing. The free gw2psidy api that doesn’t have a quota, and all apps/bots that rely on it for free access, would have to close or stop working. ArenaNet has to tighten security around their current unofficial TP api to prevent rogue apps/bots from gaining free access by pretending to be a GW2 game client.

This will reduce the number of free apps available around the TP but if you really want to combat bots, that would be the price to pay. It would not make them all go away, but it would certainly make things harder for them.

ArenaNet probably has a priority list. Even if exposing APIs, increases their risk of ‘legitimizing’ bots, it may be worth that risk considering the pay-off. They have increased mind share and presence through their apps and they bring users closer to the game than ever before.

It would be a grave mistake if they back off from publishing the BEST trading post API that they can give, just because of that fear. Instead of letting botters dictate the directions that the game should take, they should dictate for themselves where they want to take GW2, then worry about botters later. Either they decide to do a good job of supporting mobile scenarios that would really compel users, or they shouldn’t even try publishing any API, wasting their resources as a result.

I would like to believe that ArenaNet is a bold and innovative company who doesn’t back down from taking that chance to improve their game and user experiences, despite the fact that botters are always lurking.

Releasing APIs or not is a big decision for them. I can only hope that they would not let their fear of bots overwhelm them and prevent them from releasing the best set of APIs that they can release. They should go do what gives the best experiences for the game and their users, trusting that their “bot defense team” can meet up to that new challenge.

multivira.7925:

DarkSpirit.7046:

Thinking of this another way, if you are a mobile user, what kind of gw2 trading post mobile apps would be so fantastic that you would be willing to pay for, considering that gw2spidy mobile apps are already common?

None. I don’t think I’d ever pay money for an app, especially not considering the amount of things fans will produce for free.

Not everyone thinks like you then, otherwise web sites like Gold Wars 2 would have no subscribers.

Furthermore, if ArenaNet charges for API access in order to deter bots from using their APIs, due to all these complaints about encouraging bots, then legit programmers may have to pass this cost down to their customers, either that or take a monetary loss.

Note that their plan is to have every registered developer hold a developer key to access their api, each having their own quota. What I don’t understand is, why would people think that such a system be more attractive to bot writers than the bot APIs that they already have through hacking the client for free.

In any case, if bots using their APIs turns out to be a problem, I would support ArenaNet charging a fee to access their APIs. But this would ultimately raise the cost of legit programs. ArenaNet may decide to close the free access of their unofficial Trading Post API, effecting gw2spidy, once their official Trading Post API is out. So no more fear of bots exploiting such APIs, at the cost of fewer free apps.

Cilio.4569:

How a bot can run to an event if we dont have coordinates?? Anyway,a bot inside a game is easy to find,not the same in outside

Why don’t we have coordinates?? Check this out:

https://api.guildwars2.com/v1/event_details.json?event_id=BC6495A4-6CE9-4E12-A26F-6BDF8CFA74D6

A bot inside of a game may not be as easy to find if nobody reports it. If I am running a bot I would choose to guest in a less populated server.

Primal Zed.9714:

I don’t expect them to add anything that involves interacting with character inventories, just like I don’t expect APIs that allow people to move their characters, use skills, loot, and so on. Even beyond the concerns of botting (and I’m boggled people here are actually suggesting that’s a non-issue), they do still want players to actually play the game in order to play the game.

I’m not posting here to argue against it. I’m posting here to say it’s absurd to expect in-game character interactions to be anything other than read-only.

I don’t expect that from ArenaNet either, but it would be a pleasant surprise if they do. Why? Because bots already have the capability to do that and a lot more (see Healix’s post above for an example). What is lacking are the user scenarios supported by legit programs, as the hands of legit programmers are tied by conforming to the terms of service.

I am a big supporter of ArenaNet exposing their APIs and most people who think that exposing APIs would encourage bots do not seem to understand how bots are built in the first place. The official APIs would be monitored and require the use of developer keys (i.e. ArenaNet may charge an annual fee for this) in the future. Non-official APIs, created by bot authors, however, do not have such restrictions.

Perhaps read-only APIs would suffice but, as developers, we have to think about the user scenarios that we are going to support. ArenaNet is encouraging mobile apps development through their API, so what would be the user scenarios that your users would like to have, in the mobile case for the trading post? Would read-only API suffice, or would we not be able to provide to our users what they really want in our mobile apps outside of the existing gw2spidy api?

Thinking of this another way, if you are a mobile user, what kind of gw2 trading post mobile apps would be so fantastic that you would be willing to pay for, considering that gw2spidy mobile apps are already common?

Thanks zeeZ!

And I presume your server is listening at local.ctrl-alt-chainsaw.net:8888.

Thanks. Talking about *_details.json, I don’t see the status for item_details.json, did you miss that?

Do you plan to release your source code?

I see that you also call recipe_details.json. What parameters are you calling it with?

Cilio.4569:

Nice suggestion…
Bots everywhere,selling and buying..

By the same argument, every other API exposed by ArenaNet can be said to encourage botting. Bots can use the events api to run from events to events to farm loot/points. Bots can use the mumble shared memory to work as a team, etc.

The best way to prevent bots is simply not having a computer game in the first place. Bots do not need an exposed set of API to do their work. Typically, code caves can be easily found and exploited. Therefore the APIs are mainly for legit programs that abide to the terms of service. Not releasing any API would definitely not make bots disappear.