Guild Wars 2

RoyHarmon.5398:

DarkSpirit.7046:

Pandemoniac.4739:

DarkSpirit.7046:

Pandemoniac.4739:

After reading through other folks’ ideas and thinking about it for a bit, I remain convinced that the TP is unequivocally the best option. The only items most folks would be willing to go through the hassle of finding a buyer and broker for are so valuable that the temptation to take the money and run is just too great.

Maybe I am naive, but I believe that there should be more people who would not be tempted, since I know I won’t be. Once a working process is setup, there is not a lot of work for the broker to do, to broker a transaction.

I wouldn’t say naive, just optimistic. I’ve been involved in on-line communities for, ahem, more years than I’m willing to admit to as a woman who stopped counting her birthdays a while ago, and it has probably made me overly cynical.

The work for the broker isn’t much once you have the deal. The work is in getting the buyer and the seller together and having them both know about you and trust you so you that you can broker the deal. I can’t imagine how you would get traction across so many servers and time zones, when the TP is just so easy to use. If you can pull it off more power to you.

The different servers and time zone shouldn’t be a problem since you are doing it through the in-game mail system.

Having a website with a clearly laid out process would help. The buyer, seller, and broker should document their transactions with screenshots to prove their case should any issue arise.

Every broker should have a verified email address registered with the broker guild. If the broker is proven to be dishonest, then his email would be listed in the page of shame. The community is then encouraged to place him on ignore and not have any dealings with him.

Why in the world would anyone think this is a better system than the 100% guaranteed Trading Post, built as an integral part of the game’s economy, fully endorsed and supported by the developers, and charging a far lower fee than the real-world equivalent service?

Okay, maybe you’re honest, “DarkSpirit.” Maybe your heart is in the right place and that’s just an ironic misnomer. But so far, your main argument seems to be, “I’m trustworthy! Really, take my word for it!”

Why? Because with lower fees, the buyer can buy at a cheaper price and the seller can get a larger share of his profits. If I use the TP I am guaranteed to lose 150g (for a 1000g transaction), and that is assuming the price doesn’t go down and I wouldn’t have to waste more money to re-list the item. Why let the 150g disappear for nothing when it can be used to benefit more people by recycling the money back into the economy.

It is a matter of trust and of course there is a risk involved. But I think trust can be built over time from smaller transactions into bigger ones.

Pandemoniac.4739:

DarkSpirit.7046:

Pandemoniac.4739:

After reading through other folks’ ideas and thinking about it for a bit, I remain convinced that the TP is unequivocally the best option. The only items most folks would be willing to go through the hassle of finding a buyer and broker for are so valuable that the temptation to take the money and run is just too great.

Maybe I am naive, but I believe that there should be more people who would not be tempted, since I know I won’t be. Once a working process is setup, there is not a lot of work for the broker to do, to broker a transaction.

I wouldn’t say naive, just optimistic. I’ve been involved in on-line communities for, ahem, more years than I’m willing to admit to as a woman who stopped counting her birthdays a while ago, and it has probably made me overly cynical.

The work for the broker isn’t much once you have the deal. The work is in getting the buyer and the seller together and having them both know about you and trust you so you that you can broker the deal. I can’t imagine how you would get traction across so many servers and time zones, when the TP is just so easy to use. If you can pull it off more power to you.

The different servers and time zone shouldn’t be a problem since you are doing it through the in-game mail system.

Having a website with a clearly laid out process would help. The buyer, seller, and broker should document their transactions with screenshots to prove their case should any issue arise.

Every broker should have a verified email address registered with the broker guild. If the broker is proven to be dishonest, then his email would be listed in the page of shame. The community is then encouraged to place him on ignore and not have any dealings with him.

Pandemoniac.4739:

After reading through other folks’ ideas and thinking about it for a bit, I remain convinced that the TP is unequivocally the best option. The only items most folks would be willing to go through the hassle of finding a buyer and broker for are so valuable that the temptation to take the money and run is just too great.

Maybe I am naive, but I believe that there should be more people who would not be tempted, since I know I won’t be. Once a working process is setup, there is not a lot of work for the broker to do, to broker a transaction.

There are also not a lot of brokers needed for high end transactions since these don’t happen frequently. Some sellers would prefer the TP option and that is fine. But brokering for a 1000g transaction with a fee of only 1% already earns the broker 10g for a work that takes about a minute. Even if the broker charges 10% (100g), it would still be more worth it because the buyer gets to save 50g.

If high end broker fees are that lucrative, then it pays better, in the long run, for brokers to be honest. This is especially more so if brokers have to work their way up towards higher end transactions.

RoyHarmon.5398:

Pandemoniac.4739:

DarkSpirit.7046:

Dishonest brokers are short-sighted since nobody would trust them anymore if word gets out that they have ran off with the items and gold. I prefer to keep my integrity and continue to earn my broker commissions which are lower than the TP fees.

In theory it’s great, and I’ll just say again I’m not opposed to brokers before I get all cynical. I do believe that there are plenty of honest folks out there that will broker a deal in good faith.

Every day folks get taken advantage of by liars that have managed to convince them that they’re trustworthy, and that’s in a world where there are legal repercussions if you get caught. Some folks are incredibly short sighted and will scam people until they have run out of people that aren’t aware they are a scammer, then they’ll hop servers and start again.

The only folks that have access to data that can prove that someone has been scammed is ANet and I think they’ve got their plate full already. It’s not fair to ask them to police the grey market, so it still comes down to trusting someone who is completely anonymous and has very little chance of any consequences for ripping you off.

You could set up something like the “Better Broker Bureau” where folks could register complaints, but then again, you have to deal with bad apples trying to discredit honest brokers, and they only folks who can prove otherwise are ANet, and it’s not fair to ask them to get involved.

The Internet just brings out the worst in some people. A broker guild might work on one server with a limited number of folks where you can build a reputation and vet your members carefully, but as soon as it grows, it gets harder to manage. It’s not impossible though. I think playing too many MMOs has ruined my faith in humanity

I agree with most of what you said here, but I would add the following:

What are the consequences for violating the arrangement? The inability to do it again with the same people? The only ones with the ability to actually punish an offender are ArenaNet employees, and as has been said, they have enough on their plates without the “honest” brokers on the honor system.

Here’s a hypothetical instance involving an opportunistic player named Bob. He doesn’t see anything wrong with scamming people in the game, because he tells himself it’s a game and it’s not real. However, Bob wants a lot of money and a legendary weapon, and he hasn’t the resources to acquire one himself. He stumbles upon some folks who think a broker would be a good idea, and that gives him an idea, too. Bob convinces them he’s honest, whether by brokering a few smaller trades or simply telling them he had done so. One way or another, he finds himself acting as a third party in a trade for that legendary weapon he’s wanted from the beginning. It just so happens that weapon is worth a large sum of money, too. The two parties send their items to Bob, who promptly blocks them both and absconds with their goods.

You might say, “But then nobody will use him as a broker.” But why would that matter? Bob has a legendary weapon and a couple thousand gold! He doesn’t care if anyone wants him to help them trade. If he really wants to scam people again, he can just buy another game account and start again… It would cost much less than the gold needed to buy a legendary.

I still find it hard to believe anyone is actually using this system. And what’s this about “broker fees”? Are they, I take it, significantly lower than 15%? They’d have to be less than 1%, I would think, in order to justify the loss of security— and I still wouldn’t use it. With the trading post, you know you’re not going to get scammed. With this system, you’re just hoping.

Then he would be incredibly short sighted. The broker commission that he could have accumulated over the months and years would far exceed the price of the legendary.

Besides, brokers work their way up. Only the brokers who have proven themselves in smaller transactions would be trusted for larger transactions. A broker guild system, with ranking, seems to make sense. If any broker betrays the trusts, then he/she would be booted out of the guild.

Thus, it is important to “document” the transactions at each crucial step, by taking screenshots.

Lafiel.9372:

Just use the trading post.. it’s a small price to pay for the 100 % insurance of getting what you paid for.

Like I have said, theTP is great for most of the items but for high priced items, it is an extremely expensive option. Furthermore, the TP requires a upfront listing fee that some people may not be able to afford. Also if the price of your item drops after listing, and you have to re-list your item, then you can lose even more gold to TP fees than what you get through selling your high priced items.

RoyHarmon.5398:

DarkSpirit.7046:

nastyjman.8207:

DarkSpirit.7046:

RoyHarmon.5398:

DarkSpirit.7046:

Pandemoniac.4739:

But it’s for the really valuable items that the TP is most useful. A 15% tax ensures that the seller gets the widest possible audience of interested buyers for their item, and protects both the buyer and the seller against getting scammed. Many auction houses in real life charge 30%.

Just factor the 15% into your pricing. In my opinion, it’s well worth the money to bypass the hassle of advertising it and the risk of dealing with an anonymous stranger without any recourse if they rip you off. Would you rather have the 130 gold or an e-mail from support explaining there is no way they can replace the 150 gold item that was stolen from you?

I think for a lot of things, if you used the time you would have spent finding a reputable buyer and negotiating the deal to farm a little, you’d make back most of the 15% fee and you wouldn’t have the risk of getting scammed.

Whether something is worth the 15% tax should be determined by the seller on a per-case basis.

Is a 150g tax on a 1000g sell transaction worth it? Not to me, but again, that is subjective.

The TP would have been a more desirable option for high priced goods if ArenaNet has a hard limit to the TP fees. Otherwise, as items become more expensive, such third party options would become more desirable.

For third party solutions to work, the trusted broker has to be approved by BOTH the seller and the buyer for the transaction and the terms be clearly laid out and communicated.

Also I would suggest a hard max and min limit to the broker fees. You don’t want to waste the broker’s time on transactions dealing with only small amounts of copper.

I know a guy who worked for months to get the Juggernaut, but he decided to circumvent the TP to sell it to a guildmate through the mail system. He was scammed out of thousands of gold and a ton of hard work.
If he had just used the trading post and accepted the 15% fee, probably something like 300 gold, he would be something like 1700 gold richer. Instead, he was so frustrated, he quit the game. I even tried to talk him back into it via Facebook, but he was too upset to consider playing again.

Honestly, it really is important. If you’re making 1700 gold, what’s 300?

Well then he should have known me as I would have helped in the transaction ensuring that everything is fair.

Just because one person made a mistake does not imply that there are no honest people left in this world.

I know some people don’t even seek out a trusted proxy for trades like this, which is definitely the WRONG way of doing it. The most important thing for these kinds of trades is to find a trusted proxy for the buyer and seller.

To be honest, I am not worried about ArenaNet’s part of this deal. It is not like they would be pouring huge resources into finding your items back for you if you lose it like this anyway.

It is at the seller’s own risk, but I believe that once the system is on its way for some time, we would know who the trustworthy brokers are and these would be able to broker transactions of higher value.

Interesting. So you’ve been a broker for a while?

I have broker before, but I won’t exactly say that I have been a broker for a while.

How does that work? One party sends you a ton of gold and the other sends you a really valuable item?

You’re right. That’s the perfect solution.

Pretty much.

Dishonest brokers are short-sighted since nobody would trust them anymore if word gets out that they have ran off with the items and gold. I prefer to keep my integrity and continue to earn my broker commissions which are lower than the TP fees.

nastyjman.8207:

DarkSpirit.7046:

RoyHarmon.5398:

DarkSpirit.7046:

Pandemoniac.4739:

But it’s for the really valuable items that the TP is most useful. A 15% tax ensures that the seller gets the widest possible audience of interested buyers for their item, and protects both the buyer and the seller against getting scammed. Many auction houses in real life charge 30%.

Just factor the 15% into your pricing. In my opinion, it’s well worth the money to bypass the hassle of advertising it and the risk of dealing with an anonymous stranger without any recourse if they rip you off. Would you rather have the 130 gold or an e-mail from support explaining there is no way they can replace the 150 gold item that was stolen from you?

I think for a lot of things, if you used the time you would have spent finding a reputable buyer and negotiating the deal to farm a little, you’d make back most of the 15% fee and you wouldn’t have the risk of getting scammed.

Whether something is worth the 15% tax should be determined by the seller on a per-case basis.

Is a 150g tax on a 1000g sell transaction worth it? Not to me, but again, that is subjective.

The TP would have been a more desirable option for high priced goods if ArenaNet has a hard limit to the TP fees. Otherwise, as items become more expensive, such third party options would become more desirable.

For third party solutions to work, the trusted broker has to be approved by BOTH the seller and the buyer for the transaction and the terms be clearly laid out and communicated.

Also I would suggest a hard max and min limit to the broker fees. You don’t want to waste the broker’s time on transactions dealing with only small amounts of copper.

I know a guy who worked for months to get the Juggernaut, but he decided to circumvent the TP to sell it to a guildmate through the mail system. He was scammed out of thousands of gold and a ton of hard work.
If he had just used the trading post and accepted the 15% fee, probably something like 300 gold, he would be something like 1700 gold richer. Instead, he was so frustrated, he quit the game. I even tried to talk him back into it via Facebook, but he was too upset to consider playing again.

Honestly, it really is important. If you’re making 1700 gold, what’s 300?

Well then he should have known me as I would have helped in the transaction ensuring that everything is fair.

Just because one person made a mistake does not imply that there are no honest people left in this world.

I know some people don’t even seek out a trusted proxy for trades like this, which is definitely the WRONG way of doing it. The most important thing for these kinds of trades is to find a trusted proxy for the buyer and seller.

To be honest, I am not worried about ArenaNet’s part of this deal. It is not like they would be pouring huge resources into finding your items back for you if you lose it like this anyway.

It is at the seller’s own risk, but I believe that once the system is on its way for some time, we would know who the trustworthy brokers are and these would be able to broker transactions of higher value.

Interesting. So you’ve been a broker for a while?

I have broker before, but I won’t exactly say that I have been a broker for a while.

RoyHarmon.5398:

DarkSpirit.7046:

Pandemoniac.4739:

But it’s for the really valuable items that the TP is most useful. A 15% tax ensures that the seller gets the widest possible audience of interested buyers for their item, and protects both the buyer and the seller against getting scammed. Many auction houses in real life charge 30%.

Just factor the 15% into your pricing. In my opinion, it’s well worth the money to bypass the hassle of advertising it and the risk of dealing with an anonymous stranger without any recourse if they rip you off. Would you rather have the 130 gold or an e-mail from support explaining there is no way they can replace the 150 gold item that was stolen from you?

I think for a lot of things, if you used the time you would have spent finding a reputable buyer and negotiating the deal to farm a little, you’d make back most of the 15% fee and you wouldn’t have the risk of getting scammed.

Whether something is worth the 15% tax should be determined by the seller on a per-case basis.

Is a 150g tax on a 1000g sell transaction worth it? Not to me, but again, that is subjective.

The TP would have been a more desirable option for high priced goods if ArenaNet has a hard limit to the TP fees. Otherwise, as items become more expensive, such third party options would become more desirable.

For third party solutions to work, the trusted broker has to be approved by BOTH the seller and the buyer for the transaction and the terms be clearly laid out and communicated.

Also I would suggest a hard max and min limit to the broker fees. You don’t want to waste the broker’s time on transactions dealing with only small amounts of copper.

I know a guy who worked for months to get the Juggernaut, but he decided to circumvent the TP to sell it to a guildmate through the mail system. He was scammed out of thousands of gold and a ton of hard work.
If he had just used the trading post and accepted the 15% fee, probably something like 300 gold, he would be something like 1700 gold richer. Instead, he was so frustrated, he quit the game. I even tried to talk him back into it via Facebook, but he was too upset to consider playing again.

Honestly, it really is important. If you’re making 1700 gold, what’s 300?

Well then he should have known me as I would have helped in the transaction ensuring that everything is fair.

Just because one person made a mistake does not imply that there are no honest people left in this world.

I know some people don’t even seek out a trusted proxy for trades like this, which is definitely the WRONG way of doing it. The most important thing for these kinds of trades is to find a trusted proxy for the buyer and seller.

To be honest, I am not worried about ArenaNet’s part of this deal. It is not like they would be pouring huge resources into finding your items back for you if you lose it like this anyway.

It is at the seller’s own risk, but I believe that once the system is on its way for some time, we would know who the trustworthy brokers are and these would be able to broker transactions of higher value.

Katz.5143:

DarkSpirit.7046:

The problem with the TP though is the 15% total tax, which may not seem like a lot but if you are selling items that are really valuable, it makes a lot of difference!

For normal items, the TP is probably your best choice.

For some people it means if they luck out and get a fantastic item that would sell for a lot of gold, they are out of luck because they can’t afford the listing price.

Good point the 5% listing price upfront is also another factor limiting the sale of high priced goods on the TP.

I have also heard of people selling precursors on the TP, paid the listing price, then their precursor prices dropped causing most of the gold from the final sell transaction to end up as TP fees than to the seller’s pocket.

Pandemoniac.4739:

But it’s for the really valuable items that the TP is most useful. A 15% tax ensures that the seller gets the widest possible audience of interested buyers for their item, and protects both the buyer and the seller against getting scammed. Many auction houses in real life charge 30%.

Just factor the 15% into your pricing. In my opinion, it’s well worth the money to bypass the hassle of advertising it and the risk of dealing with an anonymous stranger without any recourse if they rip you off. Would you rather have the 130 gold or an e-mail from support explaining there is no way they can replace the 150 gold item that was stolen from you?

I think for a lot of things, if you used the time you would have spent finding a reputable buyer and negotiating the deal to farm a little, you’d make back most of the 15% fee and you wouldn’t have the risk of getting scammed.

Whether something is worth the 15% tax should be determined by the seller on a per-case basis.

Is a 150g tax on a 1000g sell transaction worth it? Not to me, but again, that is subjective.

The TP would have been a more desirable option for high priced goods if ArenaNet has a hard limit to the TP fees. Otherwise, as items become more expensive, such third party options would become more desirable.

For third party solutions to work, the trusted broker has to be approved by BOTH the seller and the buyer for the transaction and the terms be clearly laid out and communicated.

Also I would suggest a hard max and min limit to the broker fees. You don’t want to waste the broker’s time on transactions dealing with only small amounts of copper.

The problem with the TP though is the 15% total tax, which may not seem like a lot but if you are selling items that are really valuable, it makes a lot of difference!

For normal items, the TP is probably your best choice.

I don’t mind it as much now that I am more aware of how things are done in this game. I “pity the fools” (sounding like Mr T) that throw items into the mystic forge without proper calculations, like I did.

Not every recipe provided by the mystic forge is a blessing and most sites like gw2spidy only display crafting data.

Big Hint for those of you who are thinking of creating a gw2 utility website: MYSTIC FORGE recipe calculations so people can tell if they are worth it or not.

I wrote a script that takes the current prices, using the gw2spidy api, does the calculations:

Promoting 250 Mithril Ore into some Orichalcum Ore
Cost of promotion: 20606 Number of promoted items to be generated for promotion
to be worth it: 60.42815249266862

This is the result as of now. Not taking the philosopher’s stones, which require skill point, into account.

Typically you get about 15-25 T6 ore per promotion, so it is definitely not worth it to promote T5 ore to T6 at this moment. It has not been worth it to promote T5 to T6 ore, for a long while already.

One of the things that I don’t like about this game is that there are lots of little traps like these, that casual players are not aware of. I used to be new to the game, did the promotion and lost gold as a result until I started calculating.

Not all crafted items are worth less than the combined cost of their ingredients that are used to craft them, even though most of them are.

It is up to you to find out which recipes are worth it.

I ignore the chance of ectos and the small amount of crafting materials. Often I get 0 ectos when salvaging rares/exotics because I find that it is NOT A FAIR distribution across the range of possibilities of getting 0-3 ectos per salvage. The chances are more heavily weighted towards the lower end (i.e. you get a higher chance of getting 0 ectos than getting 3 ectos). Anyway, you can factor that in if you wish.

If (upgradePrice * salvageChance >= (TpProfit + salvageCost)) then salvage else sell

where:
upgradePrice = upgrade.max_offer_unit_price * 0.85
salvageChance = chance to get upgrade depending on your salvage kit. E.g. 1.0 for BLSK, 0.8 for Masters and so on.
TpProfit = 0.85 * item.max_offer_unit_price
salvageCost = cost per salvage depending on which salvage kit you use

I use the max_offer_unit_prices but you can sell it at a higher price than that if you prefer of course.

A more accurate formula would be:
If (upgradePrice * salvageChance + materialPrice + ectoPrice> (TpProfit + salvageCost)) then salvage else sell

where:
upgradePrice = upgrade.max_offer_unit_price * 0.85
salvageChance = chance to get upgrade depending on your salvage kit. E.g. 1.0 for BLSK, 0.8 for Masters and so on.
TpProfit = 0.85 * item.max_offer_unit_price
salvageCost = cost per salvage depending on which salvage kit you use

I don’t know how to calculate materialPrice since I can’t find any data to correlate T1-6 crafting materials as a result of salvaging an item. Is that based on the item level? If it is, I don’t have a data to correlate them.

I also don’t know how to calculate ectoPrice. Only ArenaNet knows the chances of getting 0, 1, …3 ectos. Just picking numbers from thin air, if we assume these probabilities:

Chance of getting 0 ecto = 50%
" 1 ecto = 30%
" 2 ectos = 15%
" 3 ectos = 5%

Then ectoPrice = 0.3 * e + 0.15 * 2 * e + 0.05 * 3 * e where e is the max_offer_unit_price of a unit ecto on the TP * 0.85.

You don’t buy a BLSK for ectos, you buy them to retrieve the upgrade. Ectos are just a side-benefit.

Fractals of the Mist.

I have salvaged a lot of level 68+ exotics and never get more than 3 ectos per salvage. Unless I have been having consistent bad luck everyday, getting 0 ectos per salvage seems to be a lot more common than getting 3 ectos per salvage.

So even though the range is 0 to 3 ectos per salvage, there is a higher chance of getting 0 than there is to get 3 ectos per salvage. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong, John. Thanks.

Snoring Sleepwalker.9073:

I’ve had a few sell orders up about 2 weeks now. How can I tell if I should leave those orders up, or cancel them and relist the items at a lower price ?

Since you have waited that long, and if there are still large quantities of items in the sell queue that are much cheaper than yours, I suggest you just get yours out and re-list them with a more competitive current price.

Yes, you may make a loss but at least you get back some gold rather than have your gold tied up there forever. Like I have said many times, playing the TP IS NOT GUARANTEED PROFIT even if you make all the right decisions. There is an element of luck involved because of all the overbidding/undercutting. This is one reason why flipping is over-hyped.

lunawisp.2378:

The problem with tip number 4 (cancelling your sale and reposting it) is that each time you do this, you end up paying the posting fee again. If you’ve only been undercut by a few coppers on a popular item you may well be better off just leaving it there. You’d have to take a look at the market for that item to decide. Just blindly reposting and paying a fee every time you get undercut is going to get expensive.

He was talking about buy orders in tip 4, not sell orders. But the point about people undercutting your sell orders means that playing the TP is NOT A GUARANTEED PROFIT. You can just as well make a loss by not being able to sell your items even after 2 weeks or more.

There is an element of luck involved as long as you put your items out in the sell queue. This is why flipping and playing the TP techniques and so on are over hyped when people think that they are guaranteed to make a profit if they make the right decisions.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Some of the tips I posted were how to maximize gains, since 1 copper is the minimum required difference to be first in line. Tips on market flipping is a whole different ballgame.

If being the “first in line” is all you care for, then the best way to be the “first in line” is to simply buy and sell instantly. Otherwise you leave yourself open to being undercut/overbid in this market then you wont be the “first in line” any longer. Again, the tips are overly simplistic for buy/sell orders in this market where undercutting/overbidding is almost a certainty.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Well the keys here are that if you are the lowest priced seller, your item will sell first. If you have the highest Buy Order price, your order will be filled first. And all it takes is a 1 copper difference. Proper value of an item is in the eye of the beholder.

The most important point is to make a profit. If you can’t even do that because you didn’t calculate your break-even price and blindly overbid/undercut based on these tips, then you might as well stop playing the TP as you are losing gold doing it in the first place.

Those tips are overly simplistic and can lead to you being tricked. For example, people can get 1 item and sell it at a very low price so your tip #1 would lead you to a loss or very low profit.

There is also no point in overbidding (tip #2) if the item is not selling well. Furthermore, someone can also trick you by buying just 1 of the item at a very high price to trick the market into paying more for it. Also, what is the break-even price? There is no point overbidding for something, out of spite, if you would end up making a loss in the end.

There are a lot more variables to understand before making a reasonable decision. Only fools rush in to undercut/overbid without looking closely at the situations.

Don’t forget that Gold Wars 2 and gw2spidy both already claim to have the approval of ArenaNet. We have posted and asked ArenaNet numerous times here, as you are well aware, and if the owners of Gold Wars 2 and gw2spidy are bluffing then ArenaNet should have stepped in to clarify the matter. Since ArenaNet did NOT do that, we can only give the owners the benefit of the doubt that they indeed received approval to do what they do.

Zicore’s app accesses the TP server in the same way so it should be approved in the same way too. ArenaNet is also not granting approval/disapproval on a per-app basis since their API is not supported, probably because they don’t want to strain their resources. All his app does is to display the information that gw2spidy already display but with notifications instead of you hitting refresh.

The hardware upgrades (i.e. gaming mice, PS3 controller, etc.) fits question 1 and 3 a lot more. Yet people still use them, even in PvP, to gain an advantage over others.

The fact that ArenaNet did not put a stop to them ever since GW1 started years ago, proves that the questions above are just guidelines and not rules, especially when both gw2spidy and Gold Wars 2 have already been granted approval. Similarly for this app, as it accesses their TP server in the same way.

Vinny.6924:

Hey OP, someone has been under cutting you a ton and yoi have finally posted your frustrations.

Why being a day trader sucks.

Actually I have grown to love the undercutting because it teaches me a lot of things about the TP and how people trade. That in turn helps me to refine my program and makes it better.

Yesterday I managed to profit from 2 instances where some people tried to undercut my sales at ridiculously low prices. Now I wish people would do that to me more often.

SteepledHat.1345:

Lmao, it took you a few hours to develop the spreadsheets.

I’m done. This is just too funny.

I don’t use spreadsheets. Scripts and programs are so much more flexible and I have one that analyzes such sales for me, on all my sell orders, in case someone plans to undercut me at such ridiculous prices.

SteepledHat.1345:

DarkSpirit.7046:

….I also see people selling at ridiculous prices that would result in a huge net loss given the max offer price then, due to intense undercutting.

Yeah, I do that on purpose. See, folks that are clever enough to TP flip (That is, anyone that can multiply by .85 and perform subtraction.) but prefer to play the real game get item drops. When they notice a ridiculous spread between the offer and sell price of the item they obtained, sometimes they’ll calculate where it stops being profitable for you flippers. Then they post right near that amount. Why?

So you’ll buy me out and I never have to deal with re-posting until we get to the true equilibrium. That lets me go back to the real game faster and, more likely than not, with more money than if I had only undercut once.

Example:
Buy Price: 40s
Sell Price 1g

You break even at 47s 6c
I post at 60.

It’ll sell because you want to flip. It’s an almost risk-free transaction on my part. The nature of flippers is easy to exploit.

Oh, and the added bit that I know it annoys people – that’s good too.

If you sell your items at 60s, I would buy them all instantly then re-sell them at 1g (i.e. the next min sale unit price), gaining 25s per unit, after TP taxes, which is about 42% profit for me.

Oglaf.1074:

Relatively easy, yes. But not as quick. And lets be frank, the tokens are not the reason why people run CoF1. Its for the completion silver.

Not really, many people salvage the rares for ectos which has a nice value nowadays.

Oglaf.1074:

I’d like to see you find another dungeon/path that is as lucrative as CoF1.

There isn’t one.

TP is the name of the game.

There are others that are also relatively easy like CoF2, HotW 1, and CoE 1. Running CoF 1 and 2, CoE 1, and HotW 1 would net you 240 tokens in maybe 2 hours played, which gives you 8 rare armors.

kiwiburner.2186:

Or are you trying to cool the flipping market to reduce its competitiveness and give yourself more control of it? (tongue firmly in cheek :p)

I bet the developer responsible for the TP is creaming his or her pants in sheer Randian delight as they watch those people you speak of “call” and direct the market on items (because surely it is they who are making the huge profits from flipping).

The market is not as profitable as it used to be due to all the undercutting that is going on. Sometimes I find myself to be making just 1 copper per transaction and I also see people selling at ridiculous prices that would result in a huge net loss given the max offer price then, due to intense undercutting.

People should take a step back and reflect on the other areas of the game that can earn them better rewards than just flipping and playing the TP all day trying to undercut/overbid everyone.

Low severity TP dialog filter bug:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/bltc/Black-lion-trade-filter/first#post1424766

There are people, whom I shall not name, who are benefiting from this hype by selling products and services that are suppose to help you win the TP game, if you pay them a subscription with real money.

Many people seem to think that playing the TP is the fastest way to get rich but that is not true. Playing the game itself is the fastest way to get rich. For example, cof path 1 can be done in under 10 mins to net 2-4 golds based on luck + tokens as well as the odd 50-60 silver from other parts of the dungeon.

Nowadays more and more people are spending time playing the TP, undercutting and overbidding one another reducing profits and taking up your time to monitor your investments. Profits are becoming hard to earn on the TP as more people compete and many previously viable markets are now decimated.

In the past, it was much easier to earn gold from the TP but as more people move in, playing the TP is just not as viable as playing dungeons nowadays.

Stiffi.7824:

Esplen.3940:

Zicore and spidy have anet’s approval. Not sure about Gold Wars 2.

Did I miss something? Since when does Zicore have an approval?

For an unsupported api, I seriously doubt ArenaNet is prepared to provide approval/disapproval on a per-app basis.

If Zicore’s app uses the same mechanism as what gw2spidy uses to access the TP, then it should fall under the same category. If gw2spidy has been approved then Zicore’s app should be approved as well.

Esplen.3940:

Zicore and spidy have anet’s approval. Not sure about Gold Wars 2.

It says so in big letters on their website: http://www.goldwars2.com/

“ArenaNet Approved. ArenaNet gave access to data that allows us to build applications like Gold Wars 2. You will not be banned for using Gold Wars 2.”

Anyway, it takes resources to properly support an api, so this may be just one of those, “you can use it, just don’t expect us to support it or answer any questions about it” kind of deal.

Even though I have doubts that ArenaNet will give a clear cut answer to this, I think that this thread has good motivations. Gw2spidy and Gold Wars 2 claim to already have ArenaNet’s approval but if that is not the case, then I would want to know about it. At the mean time, I can only trust that they have already received approval from ArenaNet as they claimed they have. Same logic as everyone is presumed innocent until proven guilty and not the other way round.

TehGear.8702:

Hey DarkSpirit,
I’ve read the thread while it was still open. I love how you defend my app, but currently I won’t stop development.

Two reasons why I don’t download the items.json and recipes.json on-the-fly.
First: They are kinda big.
Second: I have to share my (gw2db) api key and I’d like to avoid it.

I try to keep them updated in every release though.

As long as arenanet don’t force me to stop, I won’t stop the development.
Thank you all for the feedback ;-)

Yeah I guessed your first reason. Rather than loading all the recipe and items, can’t you request just what you need when you need it?

Here is the gw2db api request thread: http://www.guildwars2guru.com/topic/70465-guild-wars-2-database-api-request-thread/

I have a question on the code though. Why are you reading the files items.json and recipes.json? I presume that they are data from gw2db. If that is the case, why don’t you get the latest data from their website instead?

Otherwise, how would you account for new recipes?

By the way, Zicore, I don’t think you should have released this to the community. The community doesn’t appreciate this and you will get backlash after all your hard work. You could have used it to just benefit yourself instead of people who don’t appreciate your work even though it is free. I have created a similar app in C# (but using .NET Framework 4.5 instead for async functionality) before I found out about yours but I didn’t want to release it because of this reason.

Here is the entire thread where I was trying to defend your app until it had to be closed:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/bltc/New-apps-being-created-if-this-is-legal-im-out/first

I suggest you stop adding more powerful features to your app before you get cursed and spit on for all your hard work.

Yes I think I know what you mean. I am having a bidding war against someone for past half hour or so, increasing by 1 copper every 1 min. I am so busy doing this that I don’t have time to play the game anymore.

Doesn’t seem that a human can be so relentless, it is probably a bot. I have read that someone was creating a TP bot to automatically buy and sell using AutoIT script.

I dont think I should post the hack url here since it is probably against the rules but if any staff from ArenaNet wants to see it, they can message me.

Humposaurus.5764:

Can we get an official dev respond on these type of ‘programs’, because if they are legal Ima design my own.

I would be surprised if they would give a definite answer on a per-app basis as that would set an expected precedence from them, so use at your own risk. The activity of approving/disapproving an app is a costly process which companies like Apple and Microsoft charges $99/year/dev for. Furthermore, their employees may run the risk of diluting the power of their EULA/ToS if they make a public declaration about this.

As far as I am concerned, I will draw the line with: as long as you don’t modify the process memory, that should be fine. Many apps like virus scanners, malware scanners, etc. already scans the GW2 process memory, so this is no different.

Yes I think the GW2 implementation for upgrade search is either buggy or incomplete. Here is why, first login to the web version of the trading post:

https://account.guildwars2.com/login?redirect_uri=http%3A%2F%2Ftradingpost-live.ncplatform.net%2Fauthenticate%3Fsource%3D%252F&game_code=gw2

To just view sigils, use subtype=3 instead, like so (copy and paste the url on the same browser window that you used to login if it doesn’t work for you):
https://tradingpost-live.ncplatform.net/search?text=&type=17&subtype=3&levelmin=0&levelmax=80&removeunavailable=1

subtype=0 for jewels (wrongly labelled as “Weapon”), subtype=2 for runes (labelled as “Armor”).

Unfortunately subtype=3 is not selectable in the upgrade search subcategory field at this time.

Svarty.8019:

Field Marshal.7946:

Your right, my mistake. It says that it reads the games session key and game memory. Is this allowable?

I think not, that’s why it’s better to go with the spidey version.

I have admitted numerous times here that I have used the trading post version which scans for the session key, and if I am not banned then you would know that it is allowed, otherwise it is not.

The gw2spidy website has their own tool to scan process memory for the session key too anyway and my virus scanner scans my GW2 client process memory every so often, so I don’t see why it wouldn’t be allowed.

I have never ever given any of my girl friends or my wife money to buy their own flowers. It is such an insult…

That happens to me sometimes too but I never attributed it to bots. It is just the annoying nature of the TP: People tend to buy things that are popular and avoid things that are not popular.

If it is a bot that triggers that fast, then it must be polling the server every second or so, and causing huge lag and DOS attacks on the trading post server. That would easily catch ArenaNet’s attention.

Healix.5819:

GW2Spidy and Zicore’s are on the cleaner side of things. There’s much more advanced programs out there. Did you know you can do everything you could in-game, except selling, along with data analysis all from your phone? I havn’t looked into “Gold Wars 2” much, but from what I’ve seen from the screenshots, it’s not worth a fee. I also assume their realtime data statement is false and actually using the cached data from ArenaNet, since I highly doubt they’re making 40k requests per minute.

Right, and ArenaNet would have to draw the line. There are a lot of things you can do in the game if you hack the client. But this is not what Zircore’s tool does and as far as I know, it doesn’t do anything that the gw2spidy back end isn’t already doing. It reads the process memory, and only opens the process with read permission (like a virus scanner), and doesn’t modify the process at all, unlike many hacks.

I suspect ArenaNet purposefully made their TP API web based to encourage websites like gw2spidy and tools like this one. Afterall they have other encrypted communication channels to their servers besides the TP web channel. The current TP phone apps, which also provide item pricing notifications, would not have been possible without sites like gw2spidy and they want a phone presence. It doesn’t do them any good to alienate developers who want to support them.

But they have not disclosed their future plans on their api, and they can change it at any time since they have not published it.

Protoavis.9107:

But have they? ANET haven’t said anything about this program (as this isn’t GW2Spidy), so you might want to avoid jumping the gun.

Then ban me, since I have obviously used his program or ran my own! But if I am not banned then it is approved.

It doesn’t make sense to me that one customer (gw2spidy owner) should be favored over another customer who uses the same method to access the TP.

To all you “lawyers” and “judges”, who offers your own free interpretation of someone else’s EULA/ToS (and some even added their own stipulations), I suggest you come down from your high chair and find out what ArenaNet really thinks.

If it is a violation then why did ArenaNet allow it? As far as I am concerned if ArenaNet allows it, it is legit, case closed. Too bad if it affects your personal gains in the TP.

And gw2spidy does scan process memory to obtain their session keys, that code wasn’t released because it was provided by someone else. But the docs admitted to it.

Kintari.4172:

DarkSpirit.7046:

Kintari.4172:

DarkSpirit.7046:

There are other ways to get that session key besides searching for it in the process space. You can grab it from the GW2 cookie store or you can grab it from fiddler (even though that would be a manual process but you can go through the hassle of writing a fiddler plugin). It is just that looking for it in the process space is probably the most reliable and simplest means of achieving the goal. The code is also published as open source to prove that there is no misdeed.

I looked for the part in the EULA where it said “scanning our app’s memory is forbidden, unless of course you could have gotten the same information from cookies or fiddler, in which case, scan away!” I didn’t find it.

DarkSpirit.7046:

The fact that there is a gem store itself to convert real life money into in-game gold is already a more blatant advantage than this little program.

Again with ‘advantage’. This is a statement of opinion, unlike the statement of fact concerning what is and isn’t permissible under the current EULA. Your ‘reasoning’ seems to be that the existence of a gem store makes any imaginable trading post software fair game for use. I doubt ArenaNet will find this convincing.

As far as “you can use the gw2spidy data provider” … yes. Are we really talking about gw2spidy / zicore configured to use gw2spidy? As you said, as far as we know, it has ArenaNet’s blessing. I thought I was pretty specific about what aspect of zicore is problematic.

And yes, it is up to ArenaNet to make the determination of what is and is not permissible, this seems fairly obvious. I’m simply pointing out that (a) they’ve already made that determination, and (b) there exist some apps which do things (at least in certain configurations) that are clearly not permissible right now, and zicore is one of them.

Again, unless the owner of gw2spidy lied, he has already received permission from ArenaNet to do so. A special permission from ArenaNet trumps the EULA or TOS as the company owns the EULA and not the other way round. Besides EULA are usually written in a way that is as general as possible to further the power of the company for which it serves. It is the official word from ArenaNet that is more important than your (no offense) or my interpretation of the EULA or ToS.

I think you need to go back and re-read what I posted, because this post makes it pretty clear that you didn’t understand it. Here’s a hint: gw2spidy is OK.

If gw2spidy is ok, then so should this program be ok as they use the same mechanisms to access the trading post server. Unless you are saying that only the gw2spidy owner has a special under-the-table approval, which can’t be the case.

If you still feel uncomfortable about the ToS/EULA whatever, then you can use it in the default setting of going through the gw2spidy api. And gw2spidy does the same thing in their back end.

How do I know that they are both using the same mechanisms to access the trading post server? Because the gw2spidy server code is already published open source, as is Zircore’s code: https://github.com/rubensayshi/gw2spidy

Kintari.4172:

DarkSpirit.7046:

There are other ways to get that session key besides searching for it in the process space. You can grab it from the GW2 cookie store or you can grab it from fiddler (even though that would be a manual process but you can go through the hassle of writing a fiddler plugin). It is just that looking for it in the process space is probably the most reliable and simplest means of achieving the goal. The code is also published as open source to prove that there is no misdeed.

I looked for the part in the EULA where it said “scanning our app’s memory is forbidden, unless of course you could have gotten the same information from cookies or fiddler, in which case, scan away!” I didn’t find it.

DarkSpirit.7046:

The fact that there is a gem store itself to convert real life money into in-game gold is already a more blatant advantage than this little program.

Again with ‘advantage’. This is a statement of opinion, unlike the statement of fact concerning what is and isn’t permissible under the current EULA. Your ‘reasoning’ seems to be that the existence of a gem store makes any imaginable trading post software fair game for use. I doubt ArenaNet will find this convincing.

As far as “you can use the gw2spidy data provider” … yes. Are we really talking about gw2spidy / zicore configured to use gw2spidy? As you said, as far as we know, it has ArenaNet’s blessing. I thought I was pretty specific about what aspect of zicore is problematic.

And yes, it is up to ArenaNet to make the determination of what is and is not permissible, this seems fairly obvious. I’m simply pointing out that (a) they’ve already made that determination, and (b) there exist some apps which do things (at least in certain configurations) that are clearly not permissible right now, and zicore is one of them.

Again, unless the owner of gw2spidy lied, he has already received permission from ArenaNet to do so. A special permission from ArenaNet trumps the EULA or TOS as the company owns the EULA and not the other way round. Besides EULA are usually written in a way that is as general as possible to further the power of the company for which it serves. It is the official word from ArenaNet that is more important than your (no offense) or my interpretation of the EULA or ToS.

I have already demonstrated that BOTH Zircore’s program and gw2spidy use the in-game session key by scanning the process memory. What further concerns do you have when BOTH use the same mechanisms?

Buttercup.5871:

Darkspirit, you are only concerned that your own tool becomes illegal. By your own words, when commenting on gold wars 2:

“I don’t mind much when people started undercutting (or should I say overcut?) my buy orders because I can simply cancel and re-issue another buy order with a higher price without penalty. I even have a program that monitors and automatically notifies me whenever any of my buy orders are undercut by someone.”

At least now I know it’s not (only?) bots, but programs such as these that ruin the TP experience for everyone.

Don’t mistake this response for envy, anger or anything negatively reflecting upon you. I admire your creative skills and your drive to make intelligent tools. I just don’t agree that such tools should be able to exist in the first place.

This is NOT my tool, it is Zircore’s. I have not released my tools because of the backlash many tool authors receive from the community after their hard work. For example, this one.

I don’t agree that anyone should be able to convert real money into in-game gold either but is that my call? In the same way, it is not your call to determine what is allowed and what is not allowed in this game too. It is ArenaNet’s call.

The owner of gw2spidy claimed that he has already gotten clearance from ArenaNet to do what he does. Therefore, as far as I am concerned, such a method is legit simply because ArenaNet allows it. So feel free to take the effort to learn and write such programs if you choose to, just as those who have taken the effort to read up fan sites/watch youtube videos to have gained an advantage over others.

Kintari.4172:

DarkSpirit.7046:

Kintari.4172:

Anything that reads or writes process memory is a clear violation of the ToS, regardless of how much of an advantage it does or doesn’t give you compared to other stuff. Zicore reads process memory to get the session key. It really is that simple. Will ArenaNet do anything about it? Anybody’s guess.

Does this mean I have to uninstall my virus scanner and leave my computer unprotected then? Because my virus scanner scans program memory from time to time and by what you said, it violates the ToS?

The fact that there is a gem store itself to convert real life money into in-game gold is already a more blatant advantage than this little program.

It isn’t ‘by what I said’, I’m just repeating what’s in the ToS — well technically the EULA. So ask NCSoft if you’re really concerned about your antivirus. I have a feeling you aren’t though, because you know it isn’t an issue. Once again, ‘advantage’ is irrelevant to whether or not zicore violates that particular EULA clause.

First of all, the program gives you a choice upon startup on whether you want to use the trading post api or gw2spidy api. If you choose gw2spidy api (which is the default) then it would not need to scan process memory and you would not be violating ToS if you are concerned about that. Therefore, the author has given you the choice and not forcing anyone to violate the ToS.

Using gw2spidy api is not reliable, the website was down part of yesterday and produced spurious data today because of database issues. But that is your choice, to avoid violating any ToS, you have to make do with less reliable data.

Second, in order for gw2spidy to produce the nice charts for item buy/sell over time, it obtains the listing data for each item. In order to do that, it needs a legit session key so gw2spidy is essentially doing the same thing on the back end. You can read what he said here:

“As of late ArenaNet has messed up the item lists (search results and such) to be very unaccurate (due to caching), you can also see this ingame.
I also want to collect gem-exchange data …
So I needed a way to be able to use an ingame session_key when spidering!” (source: https://github.com/rubensayshi/gw2spidy)