Guild Wars 2

Ohoni.6057:

However this is exactly how it works in GW2. If I want the flying broom it will cost me x amound of gold. I can do what I like (defending keeps in WvW or doing JP’s and doing guild-related stuff). But it wil take much much longer that way then using one of the used gold grind approaches. In fact, it will take so long, it’s not even a viable option when chasing multiple rewards And I get a lesser reward for it, as it really has not game-value (it’s not liked to content).

For one thing, you’ll need to completely set aside your annoyance at the gem store and the items sold through it to have any credible discussion on this, or any other GW2 topic. That is how they make their money, there is no better alternative method for them to make money, it is staying, nothing about it will be changing, it is entirely pointless to discuss otherwise.

Well if we do that, we could just as well stop the discussion. Most and best looking items are directly or indirectly sold there. When chasing rewards, they are just as important as any other items, if not more because of the usually better looks.

Most of the grinding going on, is to get many of those items (as it are the best items in the game).

It’s the main reason for the flawed reward system as we have it now. Ignoring that part would be like ignoring speeding when trying to decrease the number of people who die in traffic “because people will keep speeding anyway”.

They also have other options, while some I dislike (p2p) and some I prefer.. like the system the game was introduced with, and they used for GW1 (B2P.. more frequent expansion and mainly earning the money with that). Not really going into this discussion again as we have already done that a few pages back (I think you were not active in this thread at that point but go have a read). But those items very much count and Anet has options there as well. The reward-system is indeed very much linked to the used model. That is then also the reason I usually (in most threads) talk about the model (the source of this problem) instead of the reward-system.

However, this thread is about rewarding items for (hard) content. So here I simply look that.

Now maybe they could put those rewards also behind specific hard content.. You can now brainlessly grind for them so why not complete challenging content for them? If every items then gets its own challenging content. It would still remove the game-value for the item but at least there is an alternative to the current grind.

Remember that I said you could have 3 rewards depending on the difficulty. Then make second hardest always one of the gem-store items, and do that with all the gem-store items.

The hardest reward will then still holds its game-value and gem-store items can be grinded or gotten for doing challenging content. (and you can throw money at it).

Ohoni.6057:

You just keep trying to say that certain things are definitely “grind” to all people and others are “not grind” to all people.

Rewards behind specific content does not have to be repetitive / grind.

When any us say you could make an item RNG-based within that content (while smaller RNG then with open world items) we do that because we understand that it is good there is a reason for people to do content multiple times.

But this is an addition to create the repetition. It’s not an property of rewards behind content.

Anyway I make it right with you. While I have no problem with some reasonable RNG within content to get specific rewards (I have no problem with those smaller and direct farms vs the big currency grind), we will get rid of that to not confuse some people to much, or to not have to go into the discussion about the meaning of different types of grind, and what is better.

So for the sake of argument, no RNG, you simply give content 3 difficulties and every difficulty rewards a different (upgraded) reward.

There is no required repetition in this. If you complete the hardest mode in the first run you get all the rewards in the first run.

There, the required farm / grind is completely gone and ‘we’ are still happy with having items directly behind content.

Fox.3469:

What about adding an item, let’s say 1000 gold, that would let you unlock any 1 skin (non legendary), maybe another one that let’s you unlock any 1 armor set, just thinking out loud here. This would both pricecap skins to not go above this price(wich is a problem right now, some normal skins are more expensive then legendary weapons), and give an option for players that don’t like a certain type of content, to unlock a skin they wouldn’t be able to unlock otherwise, if they really wanted. While not undermining the achievements of players that do that content, and not undermining the content itself being the optimal way to get the reward, so still encouraging people to do it. Thoughts?

Personally I think that when you put most items behind specific content and don’t make the content very rewarding in other ways, or don’t make a grind culture. Making some or even many items tradable would give this same effect.

Because now the difficulty of that content determines the price. People won’t grind that content for gold… well they can, to get that single item to sell it. But if many people would start doing that the item would drop to much, besides they could just as well do the content that rewards the item they like. So the design of the game pushes less towards grinding.

Of course, as long as most or best items are only available with a currency (looking as the cash-shop) you will always create the grind we now see as there really is no other option.

Ohoni.6057:

phys.7689:

lets say there is two methods of getting a wizard hat. Breaking into the hidden wizards lair, destroying his defenses stealing the hat from his familiar.

or going to the starting npc in divinities reach and giving him 2 iron ore. Suddenly for me personally, going to the wizards lair is a waste of time. I may do it for the thrill, but the hat may as well not even be a reward.

That seems like a profoundly unbalance system. I would not support such a system, and have not heard of anyone (not made of straw, at least) that would support such a system.

Well it’s a perfect example. It shows how the items behind the content (especially when unique) changes the complete experience and the value of the reward.

Here you see an example where your “play what you want” false appart in reality. Also it’s very clear here that when you said “if you do other content that is your choise” works different in reality.

However this is exactly how it works in GW2. If I want the flying broom it will cost me x amound of gold. I can do what I like (defending keeps in WvW or doing JP’s and doing guild-related stuff). But it wil take much much longer that way then using one of the used gold grind approaches. In fact, it will take so long, it’s not even a viable option when chasing multiple rewards And I get a lesser reward for it, as it really has not game-value (it’s not liked to content).

Having to kill the mad king to earn the broom would have been a way better experience.

Ohoni.6057:

It’s like if you say “clowns do not exist,” you’re free to believe that, but that does not mean that you are right.

No, it’s more like you say “Clowns are fun” and I say “Clowns aren’t fun.”
Or you say “Clowns have a red nose” and I say “I prefer a clown with a blue nose”.

Some people like clowns some don’t, some prefer clowns with a red nose, some with a green. They both might be clowns (repetition, in our conversation) but they are still different.

Personally, I name one type of repetition grind, and the other farming. But it does not really matter what you name it, the difference matter and there clearly is a difference no matter if you use a different name for it or not.

Now let me one more time try to explain the difference. First with some simple facts, then with describing the experience when playing the game.

While of course things can always be implemented different from my example.

- Rewards directly behind content means every content is rewarding in a similar way. Sure we might and should have the best skins behind the harder content but you would and should expect similar RNG for the rewards. So every content rewards its own item VS the current grind, where most rewards you need to buy. (let’s say the finishers, they all cost the same amount of gold). Now some content gets you the gold much faster and easier than the other.

- Meaning of the reward is linked to the content adding value to it. The item becomes a trophy.

- Wanting to collect many items will guide you to many different content. Chasing rewards becomes exploring and adventure.

Now the playing experience. You like fun and cool and good looking items, you are reward driven so set yourself goals getting those items.
Current approach.. find out how to get the item, it turns out that the only, or the only viable option is to buy it with some currency (usually gold). Look how to best earn that currency, start doing the content. Buy the reward, same for the next item and the next and the next. That is the grind.. you are grinding some currency to buy all the items, usually just doing much of the same content. Switching from one item to the other does not change much for you content-wise.

Now what happens in the “specific items behind specific content”. You see an item you like, find out how to do it. It’s an direct reward for completing dungeon x in y time. You go do dungeon x and increase your skill to be able to complete it in y time. If you find it a little hard you switch to another item you like. For that you need to complete a JP so you do that and get the reward.
The next item is a reward from a quest so you go do the quest and get the item, the next is an RGN drop from some boss in a mini dungeon so you do that.. if farming that bass gets boring you turn back to the dungeon you had to complete in y time.

This last approach sends you all over the world and as far as there are farms, it is split up into multiple smaller farms. The content feels rewarding and not just a way to grind some currency for the next item you are after.

It really is a completely different experience. And many (not all) people do like / prefer that other experience. You might name both grinding (while that is only true IF you implement something like RNG, what is not a must for the “reward behind content”, but it is to create re-playability.) however it still is completely different.

Ohoni.6057:

I don’t dispute this, but the point is, the activities that some people love are the activities that others hate. You can’t please everyone with the same activities.

And I do not dispute this, but in the current approach you are really making the content to pick from smaller.. Sure on paper you can do everything, so pick something you like, but in reality that starts feeling bad because you are punishing yourself..

I like JP’s.. But how many JP’s would I have to do, to earn the same amount of gold as doing the champ trains for an hour? So it’s nice on paper, but in reality it works different.

If there were just a few items in the game you would be after, this might in fact work because you did not need a lot of the currency. But it breaks down as soon you start chasing multiple rewards.

Also doing specific content for a specific item is for many a completely different experience by itself. When it’s hard content with a direct reward, it’s the experience of getting better. If it’s an RNG drop it’s the rush of “will it drop this time”. That is completely different from doing the content slowly increasing the currency until it reaches the number you need.

So on paper you can do what you want and everything stays the same. But reality works different.

Ohoni.6057:

Devata.6589:

Yes it is, not to you clearly as you have no problem with the grind, but for many people it very much is.. a huge difference.

No, it is not.

Funny that you know that it is not a difference for people, even f they say it is a difference for them.

Believe me or not, it does not really matter, but the fact is, that for many people it very much is a hige difference. Many can’t stand the grind as we have it now (but can stand farming (when reasonable!) specific content for a specific item they want), will get bored or burned out by it.. or in fact already have.

When they come (back) with HoT Anet should want to hold those people.

Ohoni.6057:

Replayability = Grind, so long as you are going it for the goal and not for the journey

You forget the combination of the two.. where content in combination with the reward is what you are going for.

Gene Archer.8560:

Devata.6589:

What is yout point with Teq’s Hoard?

It’s exactly the unique content you claim would make the game better because it would remove the grindy nature of the game.

Except that it is still a grind.

My point is that you keep saying that unique rewards will make the game better and remove grind despite the fact they have done no such thing as of yet except in two instances, instances that avoid grind entirely by guaranteeing the reward off the first try (SAB Trib and Lidari)

Devata.6589:

And sure you could still mess it up when putting items behind specific content. But you are mixing things up.. you say. Making content available for everybody does not have to result in a grind, and then you try to prove that items behind specific content can also be turned into grind.. Do you see how the one does not proof the other.

My point is that your belief that unique rewards will remove grind doesn’t hold water.

No wait, I did not ever claim that when you make unique rewards, automatically every ‘grind’ would go, also I did never claim farming of content (what you seem to mean here) would go. In fact, we (not only me) pointed rewards out as a way to create replayability… you could define that as farming.

The MC dungeon is also an example I gave, and people dit farm that for the reward. But that is no problem for me, people will then do that dungeon for the molten backpack, and another for the cool eyepiece.

But that is something else as the grind we have now in the game.. And with the current approach where you can only buy most items with gold you will always have a grind. So there is a clear difference.

Besides.. do you also notice how the 3 examples you gave (especially SAB and Liadri), have been among the most praised content?

Devata.6589:

Devata.6589:

Anyway, still if the RNG is doable / reasonable, farming specific content for a specific rewards is completely different from the grind. Because many other items you want will also be behind their own content. So you can switch between content and there is a direct approach towards your item.

And in my scenario, so long as you enjoy other content, you can switch between content to get towards the reward so you’re not in the same content all the time.

First of all it’s still a completely different experience, and gives a completely different meaning to the reward (and the content). Chasing a reward directly vs grinding the gold is a world of difference. And secondly, as we have seen for the last 2,5 years this just is not how it works.

Gene Archer.8560:

Devata.6589:

It’s completely different from the grind you get when items are basically locked behind a currency and you simply have to grind gold.

No it’s not, because instead of gold it’s locked behind low RNG. It’s still a bloody grind.

Farming directly for an item is a completely different experience then grinding gold. At least, for many people it is.
The content also gets a completely different meaning, and the reward gets a completely different meaning.

It’s still repetitive.. that is true, while specific rewards for specific content at least cuts it up in many smaller farms, instead of the one big gold grind when going the currency way.

So really, the only thing both have in common is repetitive, but even that is different.

Gene Archer.8560:

Devata.6589:

“don’t you dare think for one second that it isn’t going to be RNG’d” it shouldn’t and it does not have to be.

It does if it’s going to have any staying power.

I did the math, showing it does not have to, a little earlier in the same post.

Gene Archer.8560:

Devata.6589:

RNG could be of a more reasonable level.

It definitely should be all over the entire game. This game has the worst RNG.

And that could be less, when putting rewards behind specific content!

Gene Archer.8560:

Devata.6589:

And yes people will still need to do it multiple times, but thats the replayability we talked about..

That’s exactly what grind is. It’s doing content multiple times to reach a reward.

Well there are many different types or `doing content multiple times`. Nobody in this thread ever said that had to go. So maybe that should have given you a hind, when we talk about the current grind in the game, we mean.. well the current grind. We don´t mean that there should be completely no form of replayability.

Devata.6589:

No, what I say is that you have to put most items behind their on specific content. Anet did not do that.

But putting specific items behind specific content doesn’t automatically remove grind, regardless of how many specific items you put behind specific content! You’re still gonna wind up grinding.

Clearly it depends on the implementation. When making items generally drop, or items only available behind some currency (as is not the case) you can only end up with grind.

When putting rewards behind specific content you can make the RNG still unreasonably high making it really bad farming sure. But there is way less need to have such bad RNG, RNG can be more acceptable so the content becomes a smaller farm. And then every content has it’s own reward so it become multiple smaller farms.

Of course you could also make guaranteed drops or drops based on how fast you do it, or on what difficulty you do it.

Implementing something bad, is always possible. I am not denying that.

Ohoni.6057:

Devata.6589:

Anet has not put most items behind specific content. And proof..? When you have items people are after, all behind specific content, especially when unique then people will be doing that content to get the rewards, instead of all ginding the currency needed to get it. That grind option is not even available. At best people farm specific content for specific items.. But that I don’t have a problem with.

Why do you not have a problem with that? If they do not enjoy that content, and only want that item, is that not an example of degenerative gameplay?

I want enjoyable content, else I would be joining the grind.. what I am not. Still I also like to chase the rewards. Both have to be interesting.

Ohoni.6057:

Devata.6589:

And yes people will still need to do it multiple times, but thats the replayability we talked about.. It’s something completely different from the grind we see now where people simply do whatever makes them the gold so they can buy the item they want.

No, it is not.

Yes it is, not to you clearly as you have no problem with the grind, but for many people it very much is.. a huge difference.

laokoko.7403:

Gene Archer.8560:

laokoko.7403:

And if this game is really a game of skins. Why would I want to take so much effort doing hard content. While I can get the same thing half afk in silverwaste much faster.

From what I’ve been told, because people supposedly enjoy hard content.

They do but mmorpg is a game of grind. After they complete the hard content for the first time, they won’t felt like going back and do it again if there is no rewards.

Everyone was doing TA aetherblade when it came out. But as time pass, very few people are still doing it. The reward is just not worth the effort.

Just like if silverwaste rewards is removed, the zone would be empty after the first month.

and maybe people like good rewards as well as hard content. So they want to do the hard content and at the same time get good rewards for it. The rewards is no longer good if there is a easier way to get it with less effort.

Well they are progression based, and for some vertical progression is what they like, for other it’s horizontal progression. What really means, chasing fun items like toys and skins and mini’s and pets.

Still there is a big difference between farming specific content for specific rewards and just grinding a currency to buy your rewards. In the best case scenario, content has multiple (specific) rewards. One that you simply get for completing it, and some with some RNG for replayablity. Also upgrades for doing it better / faster is an interesting way to keep people replay the content.

I do see one common agreement between both sides. Everybody seems to agree the game is very grindy and also would prefer this to go.

Gene Archer.8560:

Devata.6589:

Teq and TT are grindy because it’s content that gets grinded (especially Teq) for it’s general good loot.

Wrong. See: Teq’s Hoard

What is yout point with Teq’s Hoard?

Gene Archer.8560:

Of course many people (supposedly) do the content! It’s in the open world! And you can’t grind gold for those rewards, at least not for Teq. Teq’s has exactly what you want. Unique rewards only available through him. You can’t even buy them, they’re account bound.

But Teq is still a horrible grind.

The reason the drop rate is so low isn’t because of how many people there are doing it. It’s because a low drop rate guarantees that certain players will keep coming back to that content again and again, and again until they are ready to scream. The drop rate is low to boost participation numbers.

Yes they have some unique rewards, however they are mainly grinded for the general good loot they give. That has nothing to do with it being open world, people waypoint there when he is about to come up.

And it has everything to do with the number of people doing it if you want to keep an item rare.

You see, if a developer says “item x should be rare (about 1 in y people should have one)” and they put it behind content that on average gets done by 1 person a day, vs content that 10 people do every day, Then the drop-rate has to be 10 times lower to keep the same rarity.

If all you would want to do, is keep people doing the content for a longer time, lower drop-rates up to 1/50 might be enough as that means people would do it on average at least once every 50 time

And sure you could still mess it up when putting items behind specific content. But you are mixing things up.. you say. Making content available for everybody does not have to result in a grind, and then you try to prove that items behind specific content can also be turned into grind.. Do you see how the one does not proof the other.

Anyway, still if the RNG is doable / reasonable, farming specific content for a specific rewards is completely different from the grind. Because many other items you want will also be behind their own content. So you can switch between content and there is a direct approach towards your item. It’s completely different from the grind you get when items are basically locked behind a currency and you simply have to grind gold.

Gene Archer.8560:

Devata.6589:

When most items are behind specific content (but the general loot is not so good) you will not have this problem.

Prove it. Because so far, ANet has failed that test the majority of the time.

Anet has not put most items behind specific content. And proof..? When you have items people are after, all behind specific content, especially when unique then people will be doing that content to get the rewards, instead of all ginding the currency needed to get it. That grind option is not even available. At best people farm specific content for specific items.. But that I don’t have a problem with.

Gene Archer.8560:

Devata.6589:

What content is there to grind? If you want a specific item it’s always the fastest to simply do that content (even if a few of those items could be sold).

The content to grind is -that- specific content, because don’t you dare think for one second that it isn’t going to be RNG’d into the ground. You’ll be running that content again and again and again waiting for that drop to ever appear.

Grind can only be avoided by having the drop be guaranteed the first time. The moment you’re running content multiple times, you are in fact grinding that content.

“don’t you dare think for one second that it isn’t going to be RNG’d” it shouldn’t and it does not have to be. RNG could be of a more reasonable level. And yes people will still need to do it multiple times, but thats the replayability we talked about.. It’s something completely different from the grind we see now where people simply do whatever makes them the gold so they can buy the item they want.

Gene Archer.8560:

Devata.6589:

So yes it always has to do with the implementation, but one will almost always result in grind, the other is much less likely to result in grind.

And yet ANet has found a way to make both super grindy, so why exactly do you think this will be different?

They made a grindy game, then put a few specific items behind the content people grind and then you say they made both grindy. No, what I say is that you have to put most items behind their on specific content. Anet did not do that.

Gene Archer.8560:

Devata.6589:

Gene Archer.8560:

Devata.6589:

In fact, it’s based on both, and one more.

Value of an item (ingame, and irl) is based on rarity, difficulty to obtain (what is linked with rarity) and popularity (demand supply).

And yet, if the item doesn’t aesthetically please me, it’s value is in fact zero (to me). Do you see where I’m going with this yet?

Yes, you just want the skin you like best and so everything should be available to you without you having to do the content you don’t like.

But that then results in the grind we have now and while you might not have a problem with it, many people do.

Only if the systems are designed as grindy.

Again, Teq and TT have “unique” rewards, and they’re still just as grindy. It’s about the implementation.

Teq and TT are grindy because it’s content that gets grinded (especially Teq) for it’s general good loot. That general good loot instead of specific loot, is part of the problem. Many people do that content, so to keep the items unique they have to make a really really low drop-rate and that is why it gets grindy and earning the gold becomes the most viable option again.

When most items are behind specific content (but the general loot is not so good) you will not have this problem. What content is there to grind? If you want a specific item it’s always the fastest to simply do that content (even if a few of those items could be sold).

When you (in general) do not lock items behind specific content but use currency to get most items. Then people will start looking for what content gets them the currency the fastest and you will have the grind. (your examples are rewards placed behind some of that content people have selected to grind).

So yes it always has to do with the implementation, but one will almost always result in grind, the other is much less likely to result in grind.

Coulter.2315:

Gene Archer.8560:

Coulter.2315:

Your fox story is EXACTLY my point, the dedication you showed to want and get that fox means YOUR fox is worth so much more than the ones people bought for 40 tokens.

But it’s not. It’s worth exactly the same as all those other foxes intrinsically. The only thing that makes that fox worth more than anyone else’s fox to me is that it is mine. “This is my fox. There are many like it, but this one is mine.” That would have still held true had I gotten it for 40 tokens as well.

Not true… I’ll bet you used your fox mini for ages while almost everyone who bought it for 40 tokens rarely used it because it didn’t mean much to them.

About the fox example, I think it’s partly true. You can also get some spiders there, first they where hard to tame (you needed to do special things to get them), in a later expansion you could tame the same spiders in other places very easy.

I did catch it when the easy spiders where already available, however I did still go for the kittene (that was also still available) simply because it was the kittene it gave added value for me to the spiders.

That said, I would still have loved it more if that hard way was the only possible way because it’s now so easy to get it it feels less valuable. In a way it undermines the work you did for at.. but at least that was still an option I had (while for many items currently in GW2 that option is not even available).

So it’s a two way thing. Both (looks, and how you get it) are important. Combining the two gives the best effect.

Gene Archer.8560:

Devata.6589:

In fact, it’s based on both, and one more.

Value of an item (ingame, and irl) is based on rarity, difficulty to obtain (what is linked with rarity) and popularity (demand supply).

And yet, if the item doesn’t aesthetically please me, it’s value is in fact zero (to me). Do you see where I’m going with this yet?

Yes, you just want the skin you like best and so everything should be available to you without you having to do the content you don’t like.

But that then results in the grind we have now and while you might not have a problem with it, many people do.

Gene Archer.8560:

maddoctor.2738:

The value of an item is based on how you got it.

The value of an item is based on its aesthetics and how it looks with your other skins as you design your character.

In fact, it’s based on both, and one more.

Value of an item (ingame, and irl) is based on rarity, difficulty to obtain (what is linked with rarity) and popularity (demand supply).

Gene Archer.8560:

Then those players only care about the reward and content because only they and a select few are able to obtain it.

If you do that with nearly all rewards and all content “those players” is “every player”, because everybody does content and everybody is has strong and weak points. What is hard for you might be easy for me and the other way around.

Sykper.6583:

Another side values skins based on their attainment requirements and to some extent exclusivity, looks matter a bit less (typically the skins that have said requirements are often catered to a good theme or look anyways).

Skins matter very much, if the skins coming with the rewards always look not as good / lesser as the skins you buy / can grind for, it feels very unsatisfying.

It’s like if the price for winning is the bronze or silver metal but the consolation prize is the gold or platinum metal.

At same time it both counts, that is true, as “reward value” the gold and platinum metal would in this case get less meaning.. still they are the most valuable, it’s for a reason that they are used to give to the winner, and not as a consolation prize like in my example. So both is important.

Also I don’t think we will get an answer to this, this Saturday, the first half year of HoT will have to make clear if they fix the reward system or leave it pretty much as is. I think they do know it’s flawed (as shown by some tries to improve it already) but as long as they need to sell the skins to make their money they won’t / can’t make big changes to it. (maybe a reward behind some content here and there, but no overall improvement in the complete game) So personally the question for me is more, will they keep this model or move more to an expansion based model and I think that when you have the answer to that, you also have an answer to what will happen with the reward system.

phys.7689:

The type of progression systems you guys create will make a boring grindy unfullfilling progression. you actually think its good for the game if you never have to do anything but one thing in one place over and over again to acheive any goal in the game.

Well what they really ask for, is for the game to keep the reward system is does, as thats exactly how it works now. It’s imho the biggest issue holding GW2 back from what it could have been.

The excuse is always “you can do whatever you like” but reality simply does not work that way. In an MMO (PvE) other then doing content, people are almost always chasing rewards, so it is indeed very important to have rewards for content, especially for re-playability. Else you get exactly what we see in GW2. People do some content once, and then see an item they like so look what gets it to them the fastest, same for the next, and next and next item, what then results in grind, grind, grind what in turn results for a lot of people in getting bored or burned out. With exception of the people who in fact like the grind.

At this moment GW2 is likely to have a big player-base whit these people as the system filtered them out, but for HoT it would be nice if Anet also did try to hold other people.

PorceleinEve.2973:

Devata.6589:

That is false.. Sure, if I have an item rewarded from specific content , it might give some “show off” value.

But it’s also very much something to be pride of yourself. From most items you can only have one visible at the time anyway, so how would the “show off” hold stand for all the items on the bank?

As an ex raider, only the latest and greatest matter. Looks are usually unimportant. So what would happen is, you’d equip what you’d consider your “biggest” “achievement” items untill such time you got bored of them. Or the people around you got bored of them (for example when something has become more widespread and you see it all around you now).

As time passes by, and if the flow of raid content is steady, you would use the combination of items that are generally accepted by the community as the ones that have been harder to get, even if said items now come for defunct raids.

The value of the showing off is to separate your self from the lessers, the less skilled or worthy players by displaying your hard to get and unique treasures. It’s like a peakitten, displaying its feathers. You’d only choose the most rare and exclusive feathers you can get your hands on.

As a person who wants specific items from specific content I can tell you, your way of thinking is not true for everybody.

I have the Liadri mini, am proud because it’s supposed to be hard content, but I don’t use it because I don’t like the looks of it (don’t like humanoid mini’s). In fact I use some older mini’s.

I however do use the SAB title because I am pride of it but even that has little bragging right because while many people where not able to get it so it might show some sort of skill, most people even know the meaning of the title.

So no, it’s not always the latest and it’s not always to ‘separate yourself from the lessers’.

In fact, often I don’t even like to use a ‘new’ item because at the time everybody is running around with it (that is at least true for new, easy to get items). Waiting a while makes your character look more unique.. something I do indeed like.

That is also why purely for the skin, looks are important.. you don’t want to look unique but also good.
From a game-play perspective the looks are important because you want to be rewarded with the best looking skin for completing the most challenging content. Not like it is now.. where you can simply buy the best looking skin by spending some money or brainlessly grinding. That completely devalues the items.

Torolan.5816:

To be fair, in some other mmos you are thankful for reasonable people like SkiTz instead of the moron parade that can be witnessed there.

And speaking of content that gets harder, not softer:
Everyone who was around when Marionette was an issue will quickly see the ties this event has to Vinewrath. 5 lanes of hard monsters (rather full lanes wiped sometimes) an a high number of objectives to achieve. There were hardcore gamers wading through salt seas for weeks then, people camped at the spots they thought would be most vulnerable and blocked by terrible or new players in an attempt to beat the event, accusations, frustration etc etc. Simply a glorious event even when it failed. Thank you, Mr. Designer, I still use salt from that event in the kitchen from then to salute you every day.

Then what happened?
The mechanic resurfaced with Vinewraith, but only had three lanes and the champions and lanes are reasonably easy. So even when it is a big step up from the vanilla opponents of other maps, it is still a downgrade from a harder content, and VW is not even on the level of Tequatl, sitting somewhere between the Karka Queen and Tequatl. Does not exactly speak for the idea that more really hardcore stuff is what Anet is looking for.

This has to do with open-world raid-like systems. The same holds true for world-bosses. All it shows is that Anet did try to implement harder group content in the past, but (as many predicted) that does not work very well for open world group content because you are always with pug groups.

For personal content that will work (some of the JP’s have also gotten harder) but challenging group content means the group will need to work together and that is a problem with open word content.

So it does very much look like they want to implement harder content (that is also why they announced it for HoT), but they simply found out that for the group content it did not fit into their current vision where they wanted to do everything in the open world.

xarallei.4279:

People keep saying it’s to show off or brag and yet I have the distinct feeling that if there was no other reward but a good deal of gold people would still happily do the content….again reward proportional to the effort.

That is false.. Sure, if I have an item rewarded from specific content , it might give some “show off” value.

But it’s also very much something to be pride of yourself. From most items you can only have one visible at the time anyway, so how would the “show off” hold stand for all the items on the bank?

phys.7689:

PorceleinEve.2973:

phys.7689:

no, just because you want challenge doesnt mean you want to be ineffecicient.

lets be honest, no one like working hard and getting a crappy reward. Even if they enjoyed the work.
I enjoy painting, but if someone tells me he will give me 5 dollars per painting, i wont do it.
casual players are also annoyed by this. I remember the first time i beat arah in a pug long ago, and the newish guy, was like thats it? (back then you got very little silver, and most chests were garbage)

acting like anyone likes working hard for less reward than doing something easy is disengenous.

it would be different if there were no rewards in the game at all, but as i said once you add rewards it will come into play.

Since we’re on the jobs analogy. Nobody works for a different kind of money that you get by doing a specific job. Yes? Everyone gets the same currency in different amounts. So going by that, you shouldn’t be asking for unique and exclusive rewards, but for more than what others with easier “jobs” get.

You enjoy painting, but you still expect to be paid in dollars right? and you clearly want more dollars for your work, not a new currency. So why is it that in challenging content you want exclusivity? You should get what everyone else is getting, just more. How much more is open for debate. But nobody gets “special dollars” for working.

And again nobody here is asking for getting less or the same for working hard. In fact most say that you should get more, just not exclusives. People who do hard content should be rewarded by more of what it is people who don’t get. But the same stuff, not different. Just more.

But then again it’s not about that is it? It’s about the bragging rights and the feelings of superiority. You just want to stand out from the plebs. All there is to it. The rest as i said before is just rationalizations. And since someone is going to ask what’s wrong with that. The answer is, that’s not a community I want to be part of. The only thing that remains, is what kind of community anet wants for the game. It hasn’t been such a community untill now, I, personally, want it to stay that way.

The problem with non exclusives, is they have to balance themselves against economics. Which in an MMO = grind. The moment something can be sold on the market, the items design people have to consider how many can be created, how to keep it at the set monetary value they have in mind, how to adjust its rarity, how it will effect the economy.

now, once they correctly find this balance, it means grind. like precursors, which are 1/700 combines of 3 or more items. Or drop rates so low, most people who have played for 3000 hours have not seen a drop.

the main reason i say they should be exclusive is to eliminate grind, and make objective based, instead of repetition based gameplay.

They simply wont design an item that is supposed to have value, without grind, if it has to interact directly with the economy. Once it interacts with the economy, its value is determined by grind. Thats reality.

there are other non economy based ways they could solve this, but they would require extensive systems added to the game, and even those would need various balances. They arent going to do all that, so exclusives is the only way they can reward gameplay appropriately without opening a huge can of grind.

keep in mind this shouldnt just be for challenging content, but for many content types.

I do in fact think Anet does look to much at it from an economic perspective. I believe they even have a person hired specifically for this (not 100% sure. They have somebody that at least talk a lot about it on the forums, I would love to see him come in here and give his opinion about the matter.), and while I guess he does a great job from an economic perspective, this is a game. We might not want the economic part, we just want fun, interesting (challenging) and rewarding content. Not the grind for currency.. the way economies work.

Anyway, I completely agree with you. (While I do think some items can be sold, even more important is that content is not so interesting to grind (general good loot), and items have less of a general drop but a more specific one.

In short, the game should not be so much economy based, but have more of a “life from the land” mentality.

I see a lot of the people that are in favor for specific rewards for specific (challenging) content already cheer victory.

I am completely in favor of this, and consider the current currency / grind driven reward system, the biggest concern for GW2 is (and have been for the last 2,5 years) I also truly believe they have to get this right for HoT. Still I would not yet be so sure we will get this.

Sure, we have seen some improvements over the last 2,5 years and more and more people have come to the conclusion that this indeed is a problem. (When I had a discussion like this 2 years ago half the people where still saying no direct rewards for content / the grind did not matter because cosmetics where optional anyway).

But what might happen? Lets say Anet announces 3 raids (personally I hope guilds will play a bigger road, so it will be more like guild-content then general raid content) and then for every raid there is one special reward we could get. Would we then be happy?

I personally don’t think so. Maybe those rewards are still grindy if it is put in with a new raid-currency. And even if it’s not.. well then we have 3 new challenging things that have their own reward, but that would not solve the reward system overall. (Rewards for all the other content, and while this topic might be about ‘hard’ content, the definition ‘hard’ is personal, some find the current content hard).

To really be rewarded for the content you would have to do that all over the place, and if we will see that, really depends on there model.. If they continue to use the micro-transactions model, we are not likely to see a big difference, because selling the best looking items is how they make there money. So even if they would want to, they might not even be able to ‘fix’ the reward system.

Asking €50,- for the expansion might suggest a move away from that model, but don’t know for sure. So why I truly hope the reward system gets better and we will see content specific rewards, I do not yet dare to cheer victory.

To OP, maybe you might want to edit the title to better fit the subject.

Sykper.6583:

Perhaps we all could have saved the effort and just agreed on the OP’s choice of a thread name and moved on, because yes some people don’t like hard mode, and a crocodile tear will be shed when a skin they want is locked behind the challenge, not gained through other means like gold or karma or gems.

Though, admittedly thanks to this thread next week’s announcement ought to be quite amusing as well as hyped to watch.

Following the discussion I in fact think the thread name should be a little different. More like, “Lock rewards behind specific (hard) content?”. As that seems to be the discussion.

But you are right, some people don’t like hard / challenging content. While it’s a little vague. What is hard and challenging? I see a lot of people in this thread say GW2 does not have hard or challenging content. However, I know multiple people who can’t complete most of the JP’s so for them that already is hard / challenging content. So it’s very personal.

Gene Archer.8560:

But it’s not close to impossible. WvW has badges (and I think are gaining reward tracks?). PvP has reward tracks.

It does, but in no way do I find that as interesting as for example the MC dungeon with it’s rewards (back in the day) or Liadri. And while it used a token system also SAB did use a reward system more similar to what I ask for here, again an experience I did find fun.

I do like WvW btw, just not the reward system it uses.

Gene Archer.8560:

SkiTz.4590:

Than nobody is going to play the new challenging content if it doesn’t have “unique progression/reward system”.

Then those people shouldn’t have wasted ANet’s time asking for challenging content since they clearly don’t actually care about challenging content.

They should have just been honest and said “I want to be a special snowflake, give me exclusive rewards. Stroke my ego.”

I have no problem to convince that indeed I like to go for rewards, collecting cool items and even ranger pets.

While not completely, many things in an MMO are for me reward-driven especially for re-playability. I don’t have that so much in other games but in an MMO collecting cool items a huge aspect of the game for me.

However, it never has been in GW2 because going for cool items has always been grind, grind, grind. And while I might be reward driven, I still want the rewards to have meaning and the process of collecting them to be a fun experience.

Needless to say I didn’t grind (while I did for example farm the hell out of the MC dungeon when it was life.. sadly without any result because of temporary content, luckily we manage to convinced Anet that was bad).

It shows the two are (at least for some people) very much combined. Great rewards behind bad content (like grinding) is bad (for me), and cool content in an MMO is still nice but way better and more repayable with good rewards. Plus then the content lets me do that other thing I like to do.. chasing cool items.

This topic is specifically about hard content but for me the same is true for any type of content. I much rather would have had interesting (but possibly also easy) quest-chains in the game that rewarded most of the mini’s, then buying / grinding for them as it works now.

Rewards are my goals in an MMO, ‘good content’ the means of getting it, the overall result: ‘fun’.

Astralporing.1957:

SkiTz.4590:

No player quits a great game simple because they couldn’t achieve an award…

Good. Then we can safely skip giving any unique rewards for challenging content. After all, nobody’s gonna quit because of that.

People are not likely to leave because there are some specific items they can not get (as long as it’s not the majority), but when people are chasing rewards, and that turns out to be a grind, people will more likely get bored or burned out and might very well leave because of that.

Gene Archer.8560:

Devata.6589:

So like many of the rewards now (where gold has been the way to achieve this), what results in all the grind and has been imho the main issue for the game during the last 2,5 year.

So then don’t make it a grind.

You’re blaming the wrong part. The problem isn’t that everything is attained with gold. The problem is that to attain anything with gold in a decent timeframe, you can only do a certain subset of content because that’s the only content that rewards enough gold to get anywhere, because if you reward too much gold you eventually reach hyper inflation in the marketplace. This in turn leads to the grind problem, because currently people can’t do the content they want if they also want to ever obtain the items they’re after before they are old and grey unless that content is a specific set of dungeon runs or Silver Wastes.

ANet didn’t utilize karma to its full potential as the secondary currency to obtain things.

And why is it done with gold, to support the model, and so you can “earn the rewards the way you want.” and that then results in the grind.

Changing the currency (like to karma) will not do much, if everything would be karma based, people would start grinding karma. It really does not matter what name you give the currency.

Adding tokens per map as we have seen int eh new maps turns it into multiple smaller grinds (already, better but still it’s indirectly working towards the item).

A solution could be to put one specific item behind 3 different things (a JP, a mini dungeon and a quest) in an attempt to give everybody something, but then PvP or WvW people might complain. So trying to make it available for everybody without making it a grind is close to impossible.

Even putting it behind 3 things is a problem as one of them will likely turn out to be way easier then the other. It’s hard to know on forehand what will turn out harder content and what not.

Besides, I also like the idea that an item belongs to specific content, so it becomes a trophy of that content and is themed around that content. It adds a lot of value to the item. Now the item is something to be pride of, instead of only a cool looking skin.

Gene Archer.8560:

maddoctor.2738:

What’s your opinion on the actual topic?

All rewards should be available to everyone in some manner through doing content they enjoy.

So like many of the rewards now (where gold has been the way to achieve this), what results in all the grind and has been imho the main issue for the game during the last 2,5 year.

no, if they want to hold the people they scared away before, they need to get this right with HoT, and then they have to do it different this time around.

maddoctor.2738:

Devata.6589:

Anyway, back to the core.. I think for HoT they will need to put the best rewards behind specific (hard) content.

The next thing is how to also make those rewards available to those who can’t complete said content without invalidating the content completely.

If you do that with most items (behind specific content), making some of them not account bound will be possible (so people have the option to grind for it) and for other items it would be best to have them account-bound. No need for everybody to be able to get everything by doing whatever.

Anyway, back to the core.. I think for HoT they will need to put the best rewards behind specific (hard) content.

That creates horizontal end-game and sets goals for people, other then grind, grind, grind.

It simply is what imho this game needs most.

Vayne.8563:

maddoctor.2738:

Devata.6589:

Just as there were no big riots with the GW1 campaigns that also did coast the same.

GW1 expansions didn’t include the previous expansion as a bonus.

That’s true and it costs Anet and they know it. Anet said going into Guild Wars 2 they wouldn’t be using that system, because it divided the player base. That’s the reason for a lot of the design decisions Anet made in Guild Wars 2.

It’s such a strong thread running through their decisions that one can only assume that they consider the previous way it was done to be unsuccessful.

Yeah they indeed said they did not want to do standalone campaigns anymore because of these reasons. Not sure how this is relevant, but your right.

maddoctor.2738:

Devata.6589:

Just as there were no big riots with the GW1 campaigns that also did coast the same.

GW1 expansions didn’t include the previous expansion as a bonus.

And stil they cost €50,- and still people where fine with it.

Ohoni.6057:

You can look at the NCsoft numbers.. they indeed do not split those numbers, but there is a huge spike of income with the release, and then a lower (until the announcement of HoT, always declining) income after that. Using that spike as “box sales” and the income after that as cash-shop income should give you a good idea. Same can be done with GW1 where you take the spikes around expansion releases as box-sales.

Well, one, that “huge spike” at the beginning also includes gem sales. Personally I spent another $30 or so within the first quarter of launch on slots and banks. Second, while the biggest spike was with the box launch, which is expected, the money in between was not insignificant. Over the past three years they made as much over each 2-3 quarters as they did that first quarter. We’ll see how HoT does, but I’m skeptical that the box alone will blow out the previous year’s profits.

You also have to keep in mind that yearly expansions would lead to at least some additional player fatigue, the players that don’t want to buy a new box each year. I mean, look at the amount of people whining about having to pay $50 for Hot after THREE years of free gameplay from their initial purchase.

So the spending population would tend to fall each year relative to the path they’ve been on, less customers buying into the model. It’s difficult to predict what overall impact that would have to the profit margins, too many variables.

“Well, one, that “huge spike” at the beginning also includes gem sales." yeah and the number in-between also includes box-sales so hopefully that levels each other out. I never said the numbers where exact. I just work with what I have.
Not to mention that many of the sales (including yours) will be from things like bank slots and character slots so are very much linked to the box-sale and not the other items we talk about here.

“Second, while the biggest spike was with the box launch, which is expected, the money in between was not insignificant.”
I never said it was not insignificant..

“Over the past three years they made as much over each 2-3 quarters as they did that first quarter.”
This is false. I don’t want to do the exact math at this moment but here is a fast less exact version. I contribute Q3 and Q4 mostly to box sales so add those two as game box sales income.. That is 164,854 Mn KRW.

Everything From Q1 2013 until Q2 2015 I count as gem-sales. not going to do the exact math, but it was a pretty strait line from Q1 2013 to Q2 2015 (in fact it’s not, when doing it better I will come lower, because with the announcement of HoT income increased) so let’s take the average of those two. So that comes down to 29,426 Mn KRW.

164,854 / 29,426 = 5,6. So on average they need 5,6 quarters of cash-shop income to make up for one release of the game.

I said 1 to 1,5 year that is on average 5,5 quarters.

With GW1 on average every campaign earned them the same amount as the initial game. So based on those number, if they would indeed have released an expansion every 1 to 1,5 year they would have a higher income. As far as we know, the team did not increase for HoT so cost would likely be similar.

Now I must say I don’t think HoT will make as much money as GW2 did because I think they did some irreversible damage to the game, but on the other hand, quarterly sales have also been dropping, so if you would continue this trend the numbers might still end up.. We will need to have some numbers of HoT to say anything about that, but that will always be the case, you will always need the numbers from the future to be sure about the future.

“You also have to keep in mind that yearly expansions would lead to at least some additional player fatigue, the players that don’t want to buy a new box each year.” and you forget about the people getting burned out by the grind we have now and could be lower when they earned the money with the expansions?

" I mean, look at the amount of people whining about having to pay $50 for Hot after THREE years of free gameplay from their initial purchase. "
But there were not much complains about the GW1 campaigns.. maybe because people have started to see GW2 as a cash-shop game and with that also expect lower expansion prices?

Killthehealersffs.8940:

[quote:]The problem here however is that Anet was simply not able to do this right. There where / are making their money mainly with the cash-shop and so they need to convince people to throw money at it.

PPl went in Riot when they heard the price of the x-pack …. and they where forced to use real money and not the gold>gem mechanic .
So the MAJORITY of the popualtion does not want to pay real money .
[/quote]

I am 100% convinced that if they had always let the cash-shop be a very small thing, putting all those fun / cool items (the once you now see in black lion chests and the cash-shop itself) and they would have released the first expansion a year or 1,5 year after release there would not be a huge riot.. Just as there were no big riots with the GW1 campaigns that also did coast the same.

However, what happened is that they turned it into a cash-shop game so when announcing an expansion people look at other cash-shop games and see prices between €0 and €40,- so if then GW2 cost €50,- people find it to expensive.. you know because it is… for a cash-hop game, but not for a B2P game.

Killthehealersffs.8940:

But because business is buness at the end of the year they must have gathered a ’’fixxed’’ amount based on the contract they have sign … either by selling the 50$ dollars x-pack or 25$ x-packs+gems stores .
And in every year passing the ‘’fixxed income’’ needed with increase by +10% .
Otherwise we will see a ‘’cut-getting fired’’ for their employers

So release an expansion every year to 1,5 year and you also have earned a “fixed” amount by the end of that year.. (Not that it has to be yearly btw.) In totall maybe even a higher number.

maddoctor.2738:

Gaaroth.2567:

Devata.6589:

maddoctor.2738:

It’s unreasonable for them to put black lion skins in regular gameplay yes. So boring grinding content that allows faster access to those skins (better gold/hour ratio) will always be the go to method for them. So let’s add some rewards that can’t be acquired by those activities, they have enough rewards already.

Why would it be unreasonable. The fact that getting such items has always been such a boring grinding content is the main issue with the game and so they should do something about it for HoT. Such items should have been put in the game (behind content) from the start.

Exactly :/

I never said I wouldn’t want them to put those black lion skins behind content, it would be awesome if they did. Image if the challenging group content rewards are actually black lion skins! No reason for anyone to complain about them being exclusive or anything anymore.

However so far they’ve shown that the gem store items are created and maintained by a different team than the in-game rewards team. And they want to keep them that way, for example they said that the gem store will only have outfits now, and HoT content will have loads of new armor skins.

I seriously doubt they will ever put gem store items in content because it’s their payment model. Of course if they do, I will be among the first to smile

And I never said you said you did not want it

Not sure if they are created by a different team and it does not even matter if we talk about “black lion skins”. I am just talking about the best items (and those happen to be cash-shop items, and black lion skins).

I did not hear any statement about the gem-store only getting outfits, not to mention that I still consider black lion skins, gem-tore items.. just indirectly. Yes this is indeed very much linked to the payment model they have been using the last 2,5 years.

That is exactly why I said I would only expect this problem to be solved when they use another model.. like the B2P model, you know the model that made Anet who they are, and the model GW2 got advertised with originally, but at some point during the first half year they seem to have shifted to the current model.
(Maybe that was always the plan, maybe because it fitted better with the LS approach, maybe because NCsoft told them, maybe because they hired a monetize person who made them make this shift, idk. But imho for the game it was the worse decision they ever made exactly because of the things we are talking about in this thread.).

Ohoni.6057:

Releasing an expansion every year, to max 1,5 year would also generate the income they need (so do the numbers we have, suggest).

I highly doubt that. It’s possible, but I doubt it. Remember that we’ve never been privy to split numbers between box and gem store profits, so we have no idea how much of ANet’s profitability is based on which, but given the way they’ve positioned themselves, it seems like the gem store is a significant part of it. This also squares with how completely “free to play” games tend to be more profitable than other models. I like B2P because it requires some level of “buy in” from the start, but microtransactions definitely seem to be the best business model, and I think for all the complaining, GW2’s struck a quite livable balance.

From an income perspective in a way that would be like a subscription indeed, but from a player perspective not really because you can always play once you own at least one version, you just might not have access to everything. That is a huge difference.

I prefer a DLC model to a pure subscription (DCUO’s current model, for example, involves frequent add-ons that you can buy or not, but essentially a subscription if you buy them all, or you can get an actual subscription to basically “rent” all these DLC for as long as you maintain it), but I still prefer the actual content to be released for free. It fragments the content less.

If they released one expansion every few years, that’s fine, they can reasonably expect that serious players will keep up, but if they release completely optional patches every few months, so that frugal players can pick and choose the ones that really appeal to them, then you end up with players in a guild going “A:hey, want to run Twilight arbor tonight?” “B:Oh, I never got that one. What about Sorrow’s Embrace?” “C: Well, I never bothered picking that one up. Molten Core?” "A: I decided to skip that one. Hmm. . . "

It’s just not good for the community.

You can look at the NCsoft numbers.. they indeed do not split those numbers, but there is a huge spike of income with the release, and then a lower (until the announcement of HoT, always declining) income after that. Using that spike as “box sales” and the income after that as cash-shop income should give you a good idea. Same can be done with GW1 where you take the spikes around expansion releases as box-sales.

You can do the math and while it’s never going to be exact, it gives you an idea, and it suggest they would in fact have earned more money by now with yearly expansions.

Also the idea that F2P games always earn more seems to be taken out of thin air. It is a fairly safe (low risk) and easy approach, that is why it’s used a lot.

“but if they release completely optional patches every few months, so that frugal players can pick and choose the ones that really appeal to them” That is the DLC model you got.. A problem you will have less with expansions that are released ever 1 / 1,5 year. When releasing an expansion every few years they will need to rely on the cash-shop to earn much of the money resulting in the bad reward system we have now.

maddoctor.2738:

It’s unreasonable for them to put black lion skins in regular gameplay yes. So boring grinding content that allows faster access to those skins (better gold/hour ratio) will always be the go to method for them. So let’s add some rewards that can’t be acquired by those activities, they have enough rewards already.

Why would it be unreasonable. The fact that getting such items has always been such a boring grinding content is the main issue with the game and so they should do something about it for HoT. Such items should have been put in the game (behind content) from the start.

Ohoni.6057:

I do expect them to continue releasing BLTC gear though, the box model alone cannot sustain them long term, and I wouldn’t want them to release boxed expansions on a pace that would theoretically work for that model. The nice thing about the store is that it’s optional, you can buy the new skins or not. If they were releasing boxed expansions every 3-6 months, as they would have to to make a living off of it, then that’s pretty much a subscription, and subscription fees are why I play GW2.

Releasing an expansion every year, to max 1,5 year would also generate the income they need (so do the numbers we have, suggest).

And yes than I would much rather see them making money that way (B2P) then putting all fun things behind cash or a grind, sucking a big part of the fun out of the game.

From an income perspective in a way that would be like a subscription indeed, but from a player perspective not really because you can always play once you own at least one version, you just might not have access to everything. That is a huge difference.

SkiTz.4590:

anet has already shown they will make unique skins/mini’s or whatever you hold so close to your heart.

it’s not up to you to decide what should be the correct reward thankfully.

I can’t say Anet really did that a lot, and for sure not as it imho should be.

Best (looking) items are generally directly sold from the cash-shop or indirectly sold as they are put in black lion chest.

Personally I don’t really like reward system of the Ambrite weapon skins because it is still grindy and not really rewards for content, more rewards for a map. (In a way, it’s how most rewards works, but now shrunk down to one map). Still it’s something you can work towards and is in the game so while still grindy and not optimal, it’s better than the black lion, and cash-shop items.

However when comparing the looks of the skins, I must conclude that most of those black lion skins are way better looking. Now clearly people have different tastes so some might prefer the Ambrite weapons over (for example) the Chaos weapon skins. But I think I am not lying if I say, by far most people will prefer the chaos skins, and that is true for most of the black lion skins when comparing them to the Ambrite weapon skins.

While from a game perspective, the most ‘awesome’ skins, should be in the game as reward for a challenge. (Again something the MC dungeon got right.. in fact that dungeon got everything right, with the only exception that it was temporary. No wonder it was so popular.)

The problem here however is that Anet was simply not able to do this right. There where / are making their money mainly with the cash-shop and so they need to convince people to throw money at it. When most of the best looking items are in the game, and the lesser ones (or none) are in the cash-shop (lets for example assume you got the chaos weapons in the game and the Ambrite weapons where black lion skins) people would have way less incentive to spend money on buying them and so Anet would earn less money.

That is why I have always been so much against the cash-shop focus. Some people like to think it would be some personal vendetta against it, but it’s not, it’s exactly these sorts of effects that come with it and really hurt the game imho.

So then the question becomes what will happen in HoT. Will they put some unique rewards behind specific (challenging) content? Hopefully they do and that would be great, but if they still keep the focus on the cash-shop I really expect that within no time we will see much better skins / items pop up again in the cash-shop / black lion chests.

Maybe that the €50,- price tag is there because they want to turn back to a more B2P model where the focus comes again on expansion and not on the cash-shop, but we don’t know. If it is we can and likely will start seeing the better rewards getting locked behind the harder content. But if not, then I really think the better rewards will keep coming from the store and black lion chests what does undermine the skins earned with the content. Still much better than no rewards, but in an ideal world you would see rewards that are themed around the content that rewards them, and how harder they are to get, the better they look.

So imho what will we see mainly depends on the main model they will be using from HoT on.

Ohoni.6057:

But like I said before, it is important to link the reward to the content. For the Molten Backpack you need to kill the boss with the molten backpack, for a portal to a WvW map, you need to hold a keep in that WvW map, for a mini that jumps all the time you need to have completed that JP in x time and so on.

Thematic linking is all well and good, but should not come at the expense of fun. There are numerous items in this game that are thematically linked to a given boss or dungeon or other task, but there are also numerous items that could be thematically linked, but aren’t. The Pact Fleet weapons could be earned in Silverwastes, the human God skins could be linked to Orr, but they aren’t they are bought for gold on the TP.

I think it’s perfectly fine to thematically link an item to a given dungeon or JP or whatever difficult task, and that can certainly be one way of earning it, but that doesn’t mean that there can’t be others, like PvE reward tracks, token collection/redemption, drops in the local area, etc. A decent example of this is the game Marvel Heroes. Most bosses in the game have special unique gear associated with them, like say “Doctor Octopus’s Tentacles.” You can, as one would assume, get these off the boss in question, as a rare drop. But also, you can clear an achievement to kill that boss 100 times, and even if you never got it as a rare drop, that guarantees you one. OR, in some cases, these items also have a chance of dropping off any mob in their stage, lower, but still possible. OR, there are special “rare drop” boxes that you can buy using special event currencies, and these boxes have a chance of dropping these special rare items as well. There are currently several ways to get almost any item, while still keeping the item thematically tied, and I think this is a fair balance to aim for.

It’s like a trophy. You can earn a trophy for winning with some sport.. or you can simply go to a shop and buy that exact same trophy. While it’s the same trophy, the first one will be of more value (for you at least) because it was a reward for winning, not just something you did buy with the money you earned working. However it would feel really bad if other people would indeed buy the same trophy because it undermines the meaning of the trophy.

As I said before, I have no problem with trophies, so long a they ARE trophies, as in an otherwise useless hunk of metal that only serves to highlight an accomplishment. Skins are NOT trophies.

Maybe you aren’t getting that yet, think of it this way, interior design. People like to design their homes, right? Buy furniture that they think looks good? Well what if most furniture could not be bought, it had to be won through various means. Want a leather sofa? You have to complete a 10K. Want a standing reading lamp? You have to complete a bachelors in literature. Want a blue carpet? You have to master bee keeping. The design of your home would be subject to the tasks you were willing and able to complete for them, and the arbitrary rules that society placed in assigning item A to content B.

The skins available to you should not be held hostage to the content you are willing and able to complete.

“Thematic linking is all well and good, but should not come at the expense of fun.” Is does not, it increases it and also makes it more fair / logic to lock the reward behind the content. You want the jumping mini, then it makes perfect sense to have to complete the JP.

Because it very much is a trophy for the reward..

You say I don’t get that it should not be a trophy, but in fact you do not seem to get that for many people it is, or they want it to be the trophy for the reward.

In real life we indeed work and they buy the stuff, but this is a game, and in an MMO many people do like the `life of the land` mentality you describe there.

Yes while in real life I would prefer to buy a lamp, in a game I would prefer to have to kill a dragon, and then use his head as lamp in the guild-hall. (Your examples don’t really link content to reward).

PS, if you again post comments, then please quote using the names, because people might not spot you commenting on them in this way.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Conski Deshan.2057:

selfish
?s?lf??/
adjective
adjective: selfish
(of a person, action, or motive) lacking consideration for other people; concerned chiefly with one’s own personal profit or pleasure.

Selfish is literally about wanting things for yourself, keeping things from others is not a selfish act by itself, in a structured environment it makes sense, see the trophies and rewards from sports analogy a few people have made.

I know you don’t agree with it but surely you can recognize that progression and advancement are at the core of the game, and both of those involve less people being present the further along you get.

Both sides are being selfish.

The OP does not want to prevent people from obtaining rewards, but he wants to prevent them from being able to obtain the feeling of satisfaction that they get from having something exclusive. The other side, meanwhile, wants to prevent others from getting those rewards at all. Both sides are also trying to preserve what they value — access or exclusivity.

Neither side is being noble, expansive or inclusive. There is no way to give both sides what they want, because their desires are diametrically opposed. The only way to move forward in situations like that is to compromise by having some rewards that can be gained in multiple ways, and some that require completion of certain content.

ANet already knows this. That’s why we have a mix of reward availability in the game and are likely to see the same going forward. However, they also need to keep a couple of other things in mind.

• Vayne’s point about there being a “straw that broke the camel’s back” with regard to reward exclusivity has merit. Locking too many of the most wanted gewgaws behind harder content would have an effect on participation, which affects revenue in the long run. Fortunately, ANet also seems to realize this, and there are not that many such rewards — nor do I expect to see the preponderance of rewards be exclusive going forward, for the same reason. A like point can be made on the part of those who want some exclusivity. If they don’t get their itch scratched, they might also move on, so that has to also be factored in.

• More players wanting to play different aspects of GW2 is good for the longevity of the game. ANet uses rewards to push participation. I see no signs they will stop doing this, so I expect there will continue to be rewards used for that purpose.

“Locking too many of the most wanted gewgaws behind harder content would have an effect on participation, which affects revenue in the long run. " Well you could put nearly all rewards behind specific content and make 50% not account-bound (so available with grinding gold) and 50% account-bound. Seems fair. But at this very moment maybe 5%? is placed behind specific content. While the fast majority is not and can really only be grinded for. And only a small percentage of the items that are behind specific content are account-bound, so while they are behind specific content, they can be farmed for as well.

So currently the balance is completely gone. Cheers if your a grinder, bad luck if your not. And personally I am convinced this is THE main issue why Anet does have a problem holding people (something they said.. just before we get in an argument if they are, or are not holding people). People come in the game and then set themselves goals (even before reaching lvl 80), they see an item they like and go about “how do I get that”, the answer.. ah get money doing x, y or z. So they do that, then they see another item and wonder how to get that… it’s the same answer, grinding x, y or z, next item again the same, next item again the same. And within no time they get bored or burned out by the grind.

That is why this is according to me such a big issue, and something Anet needs to get right with HoT as many of those will return with HoT, but if they get bored / burned out again they will not come back for the expansion after HoT.

“A like point can be made on the part of those who want some exclusivity. If they don’t get their itch scratched, they might also move on, so that has to also be factored in.”

It’s not only about feeling rewarded. Setting goals / working towards such rewards is a big part of an MMO and the end-game for many people, but in GW2 that for the biggest part is now only available in the form of grinding currency, what is not everybody’s cup a thee.

“ANet uses rewards to push participation. I see no signs they will stop doing this, so I expect there will continue to be rewards used for that purpose.”
Well so far most rewards are best collected by grinding, that does not incentive many different types of content. In incentives grinding the few types of content that best rewards the currency you need for those items.

I was just looking at a video of WoodenPatatoes and the subject about cool rewards for specific content did get mentioned.

In the video the talk was more directed towards armor and weapon-skins but really this holds true for all types of rewards, also toys, and mini’s and finishers and so on.

WoodenPatatoes then adds that he expects these type of rewards will re revealed when they talk about the hard content, adding that those rewards being linked to that content (this concept) is one of the biggest things that excites him the most about the hard content.. it shows hot important rewards going with content (and the result of that, that he also talks about) is for many people.

Anyway, at 13:10 he even says the lack of this really is the biggest things that hampers GW2’s end-game.

And this is exactly how I feel as well, heck, it’s my main topic of many of my post of the last 2,5 years, where I personally blame the cash-shop focus for this. But it is exactly how I feel about it.

All these rewards just being things you buy / grind instead of being a reward for specific content, including challenging content does remove a huge part of the end-game / game.

In an MMO that generally is my preferred end-game.. but here that is grind, grind, grind instead of some interesting content to unlock the reward. So taking away a huge part of the content.

Maybe that is also something people should thing about.. that having rewards from content (instead of the grind option) is a big part of the game-play / end-game for many people and I indeed do feel as well the lack of this (other then grinding) is one of the biggest things holding GW2 back / biggest problems in GW2.

Of course WoodenPatatoes is also just one guy with an opinion, but I did wanted to throw this in here as it seemed relevant.

I was just looking at a video of WoodenPatatoes. This subject happened to be in there, while then specifically about armor while I feel that is true for all ‘cool items’ from armor, to minis to toys, so I figure I would add it here.

The Video

Torolan.5816:

Devata.6589:

Torolan.5816:

Devata.6589:

That however brings us back to how RNG works. Yes you could end up with nothing. nonetheless, if it’s token base, it’s nice to see you got token 1 of the 100 you need, but as long as you don’t have 100 tokens that 1 token is completely useless. And it will be useless until you get the 100th token. Would the drop-rate be 1/100 then on average you would have the reward in 100 runs.

The RNG way would take away some exact progress, you could get it after 1 run it could also take you 100 (while the average will be 100.. so there still is a form of progress, just invisible and less exact).

But it would add the rush of “will it drop”.

The token way removes the rush but gives the exact progress. Personally I prefer the rush because that has an effect on every run, because it can drop every run, with the token system only becomes interesting when you are nearing the required number of tokens, before that all you see is the wall of missing tokens. (token can be replaced by any type of currency here).

That is not to say that there could not also be an items you simply get for completing it the first time.

Couldn´t the issue of getting a boring token solution that is individually worthless instead of junk be avoided with making the token currency tradeable to a merchant who gives out stuff, quality depending on how many tokens you want to invest, like it is done in SW?

Lets make an example:
Say you have collected 46 tokens, then your item drops. You have a reasonably number of tokens then: not enough to be angry because you invested so dearly in them, but proud enogh to maybe tell it in guild once or twice. You give them to the merchant for something that is nice but you wouldn´t really put a thought in else wise.
I see only winners in this scenario:
*The Person who got the item dropped early won because he won the item and has escaped early from the grind.
*The token collector that got lucky won because he got the item and some stuff for his effort.
*The poor soul who had to collect 100 tokens is rewarded with the item and can be proud for his persistance and stubborness, making him a winner of hearts.^^

That could possible work. The way I would however design it would be a little different.

I would put in one reward simply for completing it. 1 or more rewards behind RNG, this should be the rewards people are really after, so the ‘best looking ones’. (that is of course somewhat personal)

In addition I would put in tokens to earn something along the way, much like the dungeon armor, however this should really be a nice addition, not something people would really want to go for or would always want to collect (from all dungeons).

But your solution would also work I think. The question just is.. what is the ‘stuff’ you talk about.. and the guy who needs to do 10 runs does then only get the main reward but none of the stuff. Not sure how that would work out.

I like the idea for the completion. Staying through with a group of relative newbies for example should be awarded.

I am not sure how the rewards could look. Maybe like this:
5 medium sacks for 1 token(linen anyone?)
1 T6 mat for 1 token
1 lodestone of your choice for 5 tokens
1 tradeable miniature(not always the same to not make it wortless quick) for 50 tokens
1 Quaggan femaledogslap deathblow for 80 tokens
1 Dungeon Exklusive Item for 100 tokens

And for the guy who lucked out early but still wants the stuff, who says that he cant come in again to farm?

And those can RNG drop as well? So basically you want it as SAB?

I think the result would be similar to my solution, so I would be fine with it. While I do think that sometimes (not a lot!) you would want to put in a really rare item that is pure RNG, just to have a few of woow moment.

The only thing I wonder about, is if this does not compromise the feeling of “will it drop”. You see, with SAB I loved the game but did not ever have the feeling of “Will the skin I like drop” because I knew I got them with the tokens anyway. I did have that feeling with the MC dungeon. So that might still be a little concern.

But overall it’s for sure better then what we have I think.

Torolan.5816:

Devata.6589:

That however brings us back to how RNG works. Yes you could end up with nothing. nonetheless, if it’s token base, it’s nice to see you got token 1 of the 100 you need, but as long as you don’t have 100 tokens that 1 token is completely useless. And it will be useless until you get the 100th token. Would the drop-rate be 1/100 then on average you would have the reward in 100 runs.

The RNG way would take away some exact progress, you could get it after 1 run it could also take you 100 (while the average will be 100.. so there still is a form of progress, just invisible and less exact).

But it would add the rush of “will it drop”.

The token way removes the rush but gives the exact progress. Personally I prefer the rush because that has an effect on every run, because it can drop every run, with the token system only becomes interesting when you are nearing the required number of tokens, before that all you see is the wall of missing tokens. (token can be replaced by any type of currency here).

That is not to say that there could not also be an items you simply get for completing it the first time.

Couldn´t the issue of getting a boring token solution that is individually worthless instead of junk be avoided with making the token currency tradeable to a merchant who gives out stuff, quality depending on how many tokens you want to invest, like it is done in SW?

Lets make an example:
Say you have collected 46 tokens, then your item drops. You have a reasonably number of tokens then: not enough to be angry because you invested so dearly in them, but proud enogh to maybe tell it in guild once or twice. You give them to the merchant for something that is nice but you wouldn´t really put a thought in else wise.
I see only winners in this scenario:
*The Person who got the item dropped early won because he won the item and has escaped early from the grind.
*The token collector that got lucky won because he got the item and some stuff for his effort.
*The poor soul who had to collect 100 tokens is rewarded with the item and can be proud for his persistance and stubborness, making him a winner of hearts.^^

That could possible work. The way I would however design it would be a little different.

I would put in one reward simply for completing it. 1 or more rewards behind RNG, this should be the rewards people are really after, so the ‘best looking ones’. (that is of course somewhat personal)

In addition I would put in tokens to earn something along the way, much like the dungeon armor, however this should really be a nice addition, not something people would really want to go for or would always want to collect (from all dungeons).

But your solution would also work I think. The question just is.. what is the ‘stuff’ you talk about.. and the guy who needs to do 10 runs does then only get the main reward but none of the stuff. Not sure how that would work out.

BrotherBelial.3094:

Apolo.5942:

To those people comparing Hard Content, to WoW raiding.

There is a very big particular difference betwin content here an in WoW.

When you kill a Raid Boss in WoW, it ALWAYS dropps significant loot and gear.

Here you have Teq which gets killed every day and dropps something significant may be what 1 out of 100 times?.

What incentives is there to actually want those fights to be harder?.

All of this. I want rewarding content first. Then we can talk about making things harder.

Well, Teq does reward well… in currency. So people grind the world-bosses to then buy the items we want.

That is how things go, and bases on this thread, multiple people clearly dislike.

I also simply want specific rewards behind specific content, hard content being a part of that.

Torolan.5816:

Devata.6589:

Yeah, but when the reward you are interested in is in the dungeon, there is always the drive to get the item and the rush of ‘will it drop’ making it an overall more fun experience. When done right the reward is also linked to the content, again something MC got completely right, dropping the backpack and the mini form the boss.

When a currency becomes the means of getting something, people will do whatever gets them the currency the fastest (and then for all the rewards they want). So it becomes a completely different experience. But indeed, after a few runs it will almost always be reward driven.

That is true. But what if it does not drop and you do not get anything halfway good?
I am usually not a Nr.1 is best and 2nd place is the first looser type of person.
But even I am angry when the first price is a trip to lets say Barbados all inclusive(Dungeon only exclusive item), the second place is a cyrstal penguin I can sell to a collector(random collectors item) for a good sum of money, and the third place and down gets the looser stuff like a set of spoons(Spoons, really Anet? How is Tequatl going to eat his soup now?).

Something that particularly agitated me, although it was a long time ago, was when I took part in raids in DAOC, Realm Dragon or whatever and got absolutely nothing for your effort. If I remember well, the game had a kind of feature that collected items with the raidleader or something like that, and I found myself playing in the player driven lottery more than once to distribute loot. If your number did not win, you had wasted hours of game time for the same kind of loot you would have got by slaying random monsters.

That however brings us back to how RNG works. Yes you could end up with nothing. nonetheless, if it’s token base, it’s nice to see you got token 1 of the 100 you need, but as long as you don’t have 100 tokens that 1 token is completely useless. And it will be useless until you get the 100th token. Would the drop-rate be 1/100 then on average you would have the reward in 100 runs.

The RNG way would take away some exact progress, you could get it after 1 run it could also take you 100 (while the average will be 100.. so there still is a form of progress, just invisible and less exact).

But it would add the rush of “will it drop”.

The token way removes the rush but gives the exact progress. Personally I prefer the rush because that has an effect on every run, because it can drop every run, with the token system only becomes interesting when you are nearing the required number of tokens, before that all you see is the wall of missing tokens. (token can be replaced by any type of currency here).

That is not to say that there could not also be an items you simply get for completing it the first time.

Ohoni.6057:

Not a fan of that, and that’s even though I’ve reasonably good at JPs and have completed most of them (a few I never got around to, and I’ve not yet cleared the Mad King one). But still, plenty of people don’t like them, so what if they really want that reward?

I don’t like grinding, resulting in me not being able to get 90% of the rewards. It seems as that is fine under the name of “grind the way you want”, so then I don’t see why it would also not be fine to have items locked behind a JP, and other behind a dungeon, and other behind a raid and another behind some other (hard content) and…

But like I said before, it is important to link the reward to the content. For the Molten Backpack you need to kill the boss with the molten backpack, for a portal to a WvW map, you need to hold a keep in that WvW map, for a mini that jumps all the time you need to have completed that JP in x time and so on.

Ohoni.6057:

I think the rewards for things like JPs should be more in the vein of pure achievement rewards

Hmm, then I think it’s better to have rewards for grinding be more in vein of pure achievements rewards.
Sorry, I don’t see how this makes any sense.

Ohoni.6057:

I wouldn’t mind if they did attach themed skins to JPs, so long as you could “cheat” your way to them if that’s your thing, OR there were other ways of earning it, such as reward tracks or some events in the area that might drop it or something.

That completely undermines / devalues the items from a game-play perspective. The skin is, or should be, a reward for completing something.. You said you would prefer only achievements and titles for this but a skin simply is, or can and should be, a visual representation of that.

It’s like a trophy. You can earn a trophy for winning with some sport.. or you can simply go to a shop and buy that exact same trophy. While it’s the same trophy, the first one will be of more value (for you at least) because it was a reward for winning, not just something you did buy with the money you earned working. However it would feel really bad if other people would indeed buy the same trophy because it undermines the meaning of the trophy.

Ohoni.6057:

The idea of an item themed to a memorable jumping puzzle is fun, the idea that it might be forever denied to people who aren’t good at JPs, even if it works soooo well with their outfit, is just mean.

If you think that.. then you should consider how mean the game is right now to people who don’t like to brainlessly grind?

Anyway, looking at it from this perspective, the only way it would not be mean was if you would put a vendor in every city that would freely give you any item you wanted.. I however can assure you, it would become a really boring game. But at least it would not be mean.

Ohoni.6057:

What some people now ask is to simply have rewards that not behind an endless grind, or where the endless grind is the most optimal way of getting them, but items that are locked behind a challenge, or in my case I would be happy having rewards simply behind specific content.

I’m fine with a balance of activities, so long as it’s a balance for ALL rewards, and not the “You can get version B doing it your way, but you can only get the cooler version A for doing it the way I like to do.” There also needs to be a balance between the “long and grindy” path and the “short but difficult” path, so that there aren’t ways to just coast through the difficult path, and so that the long and grindy path is not TOO long and grindy. The time difference between people who take the grindy path and the fastest people who blitz through the hard path should not be all that vast.

Like I gave as example before, give JP’s all their own reward (that you can’t get when using a portal, or logging in at the chest).. You can even put a timer on it (adding the challenge) and link 3 rewards to a JP where the first you get for completing the JP and other 2 only if you complete it within x time.

Not a fan of that, and that’s even though I’ve reasonably good at JPs and have completed most of them (a few I never got around to, and I’ve not yet cleared the Mad King one). But still, plenty of people don’t like them, so what if they really want that reward? I think the rewards for things like JPs should be more in the vein of pure achievement rewards, have multiple achievements for them, like ones you can only get if you never use a portal/cheat, ones you can get for clearing it in certain time thresholds, have a dedicated leaderboard that tracks all the best times, etc. That should be the award for the achievement, not a fancy skin that someone might want without caring about the difficult in earning it.

I wouldn’t mind if they did attach themed skins to JPs, so long as you could “cheat” your way to them if that’s your thing, OR there were other ways of earning it, such as reward tracks or some events in the area that might drop it or something. The idea of an item themed to a memorable jumping puzzle is fun, the idea that it might be forever denied to people who aren’t good at JPs, even if it works soooo well with their outfit, is just mean.

And that ‘balance’ is exactly what resulted in everything being behind a grind. Well that and the fact that cash-shop items are automatically always behind a currency-grind.

“There also needs to be a balance between the “long and grindy” path and the “short but difficult” path, so that there aren’t ways to just coast through the difficult path, and so that the long and grindy path is not TOO long and grindy." That will never happen because if the items becomes easy to get, the value will drop and so the grind will become lower..

The other way around however it is something that can, and in fact does happen all the time in the game. Make rewards just be generic but rare drops is only available with a currency (cash-shop items) and doing specific content to get them is nearly impossible.

Even if you say “I just play what content I want an earn the currency that way” (we then just forget, that the reward for content is part of the fun.) the problem is that there is usually some other way that earns the currency faster, so simply for doing your preferred content you already get punished.. but that’s not all.

The people who do the content just to get the currency (all the grind you see) means the prices will go up / inflation for the more rare items. So it becomes even harder to earn it that way. So you are getting behind on the rest… no problem, you just take longer one would say. But that is also false because new items will come you might also be interested in. So in the end the result is that to get many of the items ypu like, only joining the grind is an option.

With other words.. rewards are already very much locked behind something… the grind. Now som people ask to also have it locked behind something else and the grinders / hardcore casuals are afraid they will not be able to get it anymore. Well… welcome to the life of all non-grinders.

Torolan.5816:

Devata.6589:

Torolan.5816:

Devata.6589:

It also adds to the value of the content itself. See for example the Molten Core dungeon. Everybody asked for it to be put back into the game, and after they did nobody seem to care about it anymore.. It’s not one of the favorite fractals or something like that.. Why? Well partly because it was put in as a fractal and not as a dungeon, but another major reason is imho the fact that the unique rewards (backpack and mini) where taken out. Much of the fun of the dungeon went with it. Many people did the dungeon for those rewards and every run there was the rush if it would drop.

I can only speak for myself and my groups of Fractal runners of course, but from what I know, most people prefer the Molten Core fractal over Maw or Mai Trin. Why? For hardcore reasons. It is short and comparatively quick if you know how to do it. Sadly for the real hardcore guys, you have to watch the entrance of the two bozzos all the time.^^

For hardcore reasons. It is short and comparatively quick if you know how to do it." So not because it’s fun, but because it’s easy to farm when grinding away in fractals.

People ask for it to come back because it was supposed to be fun, and indeed I myself had a lot of fun with it back when it was in the LS, but after the first 2 / 3 runs all other runs where completely reward driven.

Basically, yes. People don´t particulary enjoy it because there is not much to enjoy. It´s exactly the same with Mai Trin. It´s funny and exciting for the first, second or even a fifth time, but once you know how it is done, the fun stops and work begins. Most people probably did fractals because they wanted the skins, or just to see them for a few times, not for the relatively meager gold reward you get at the end.

That is also the reason many people did Dungeons. Once you know how it is done, you will want to skip this and that. I don´t see how this would be different in a hardcore dungeon, it would just take longer for it to happen. The only way to avoid that would be randomly created dungeons with random goals and random types of opponents I suppose.

Yeah, but when the reward you are interested in is in the dungeon, there is always the drive to get the item and the rush of ‘will it drop’ making it an overall more fun experience. When done right the reward is also linked to the content, again something MC got completely right, dropping the backpack and the mini form the boss.

When a currency becomes the means of getting something, people will do whatever gets them the currency the fastest (and then for all the rewards they want). So it becomes a completely different experience. But indeed, after a few runs it will almost always be reward driven.