I think the underlying question at work is “can the particular type of reward that is armor skins please not be used for raids or not be exclusively accessible through raids?” Nothing any more elaborate than that. People who like to customize their appearance and/or collect skins do not closely correlate to the raiding outlook. There’s overlap, but they’re not at all the same.
Should raids have rewards? Yes, setting them up sucks and succeeding at them takes a specific skill set that likes to be recognized. They should have rewards. Possibly even unique rewards.
Does the reward have to be an armor skin to be desirable? No. Titles and Minis are also immediately visible in-game and verifiable ways of announcing “I’m an at least marginally competent raider.” Cosmetic items like infinite tonics of the raid’s boss or new pseudo-mounts like the riding broom could be used as flags for raid completion. There are things MUCH more visible than armor that could be used to proclaim your success.
If armors skins are amongst the raid rewards, do they have to be exclusive to raids? No. Like Dungeon skins, its not unreasonable to allow the other game modes a way to access armor and weapons skins while NOT giving an alternative route to related titles like “Dungeon Master”. If there are infinite raid boss tonics, they’d also be ONLY accessible through the raid. No one’s saying the Raiders shouldn’t have flags, only that armor skins are not something that needs to be restricted that way.
This isn’t an issue of skill requirement or reward vs. effort. The alternative methods of acquisition can be just as time consuming and just as demanding of skill as any raid — there’s no hand outs going on here. No “slippery slope of communism.” But if we are going to have rewards that signify ANY particular brand of excellence or persistence be it Raiding or 1,000 wins in Southsun Survival, do those reward have to be armor skins?
No. They really don’t.
“People who like to customize their appearance and/or collect skins do not closely correlate to the raiding outlook.” As someone who likes to collect skins I would like to see it being locked behind content (like raids) as that gives more value to the skin and it makes the experience of collecting them fun.
In fact.. I say “as someone who likes to collect skins” but this is false in the context of GW2.. It’s what I usually like in MMO’s, but this grinding some currency to buy the skin (like how it works 90% in GW2) is not what I like.
So for people who like to collect skins but are not of the hardcore casual grinder types it would be preferable to have items behind specific content like raids.
Do we have an ETA on this? And will the GW2 wiki be updated with the relevant information.
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/API:Main
I am mainly waiting for many of the guild-stuff and some of the WvW stuff, so keep checking the GW2 wiki to see if anything has been added.
It’s like the devs designed the rewards with a calculator where their heart should be. Thinking first of the economy. Thinking, “how much of a gold sink can this event be”, when they should have been thinking, “how much fun can this event be?”
Very much this.. “Thinking first of the economy.”. They have at least one person who is very much into this economic way of thinking.. He is also active on the forum in one of the categories.
He seems to lover currency and sees it as the solution for everything.. and you know.. he ir right from an economic standpoint (what might be how he is supposed to look at it). Using currency’s all over the place make things easier to control.. the only problem is that it’s not fun.. Not for many people at least.
Anet needs to drop the currency love.. They need to be prepared to let lose some of the control. Make more dynamic system that are harder to control. Sure people might be able to do thinks you did not foresee, things you don’t have grip on, you can’t control everything by adjusting some small number.. But for the players it results in a way more fun experience.
what is wrong with the event beyond that then? you play how you want, and have fun in a group taking out the enemy. I can’t say i see a real down side to the event, besides people wishing for easier rewards.
Its not the easier rewards buddy. Its the fact that the event is only 4 days long! Barely enough to get the required blossoms to buy the top items. That’s if you do 15 hours days this remaining 3 days. Sure have the events locked at there current time but extend the whole event to at least a few more days.
I am literally waiting on the forums for the event to start. because we have a 1 hour break…… I had many new players on my map confused as hell what was going on. They cant waypoint like the vets so they don’t even reach the 10 stack to get blossoms.
At this point I’m just gonna buy the stupid scarlet glove and never touch this event. I got better stuff to do then this event.
Perfect example what I talk about so much.. Content people do but don’t really like.. This is how you burn out people and eventually scare them away,.. well many of them, it is imho the reason for many of the people who did leave somewhere between half a year after release and now.
This cannot happen again after the release of HoT because the people who will leave them because they have been doing content they don’t like, will not be coming back again. HoT must be the point where you (Anet) make things right!
They just added another currency-grind (The Mordrem Guard) to the game. Something every player can do. I can’t say that is a lot of fun.
So let’s hope most items will be more like what many here expect from Raids.. while we of course still don’t know if that will also be just a currency-grind. I would not be surprised. But let’s hope it’s not!
(edited by Devata.6589)
Here is some constructive feedback to help you all with future events. I hope it helps!
1.) Enemies don’t drop loot or gold. That isn’t enticing. Killing stuff for a half hour and not having anything to show for it is disgruntling and unrewarding. If players have to be in the map for the entirety of the event and they disconnect or have to lave that means they get nothing. That is an ill-advised design choice in my opinion.
2.) This relates to #1, but what use are Magic Find Food, Banners, Boosters, camp fires if we aren’t getting loot in the first actual content put in this game in 8+ months?
3.) The Mordrem Bloom Reward Vendor is not only charging the blooms for their wares, but gold as well. As no players can get any gold for the event they just spent a half hour doing, you have turned the rewards(Once again)into a gold sink. After getting no drops from kills in said event, this feels really underwhelming. Not only can I not disconnect or leave the map, but I have to spend my own gold on “rewards”? Really?
4.) This event doesn’t show off any of the “new tech” that is supposed to be in Heart of Thorns. While I like this style of fast zerg, it was much more rewarding in the Aetherblade version of this event where(even though Magic Find didn’t affect it)Champs at least dropped Champ Boxes.
5.) The announcement page for this event said it started at 9 AM server time. Standing around for a half hour hoping it would start any moment wasn’t the way I wanted to start off my time in game.
May I ask the reasoning behind not dropping any gold or loot during this event so at least the players could cover a portion of what the “Reward Vendor” is collecting with what they just did? That’s a serious question as it may help me to get over how annoyed I am by this being the first content in 8 months and it falls so woefully short of the quality I have come to expect from all you talented people at ArenaNet.
Can my player character become one of these vendors please? They seem to be cashing in rather lucratively. We save Tyria and they charge us money to get “rewarded”.
I hope you can understand my frustration.
Dropping gold and some loot (to sell for gold) will not make it much more interesting. Well for those who like to grind it will. Now they are grinding for those blooms, then they are grinding for gold, blooms and karma all at once. But for all the people who don’t like to grind.. it’s not fun.
It’s still just grinding. Something a portion of the player base likes.. in fact at this moment a big portion as GW2 has acted as a filter, filtering out those who didn’t.. On the other hand, with HoT many old players are returning and new are joining.. are we really want to scare them away already?
Please Anet.. stop this grind, stop adding currency after currency, stop the gold-grind. Not by nerfing it, but by rewarding in other ways. If you want a big world event do something like the Karka invasion. Make rewards more interesting, make it some big event where you have to kill one boss. Killing it gives you a title, a reward and maybe also has a few RNG items (if it’s not absurd bad).
Don’t make so much content of the type people grind while watching a movie on their other screen.
Many of the old GW2 players are returning. With those people GW2 might get back the feeling it had back in the day. please try your best to hold them now instead of scaring them away again within the next half year.
You can do better than this.. we all know it.
So its time to be honest here Anet,
Is this how events will go after HoT is released, as we seem to be seeing more and more events where no loot drops, no xp is given, and no karma is awarded during or after an event
unless you mean special events and not the regular DE’s in the new maps, no this isn’t how it will be in HoT, which we know from the beta weekends, where after completing an event you get xp/karma/gold and there is plenty of loot dropped. Together with a map specific reward (ex. verdant brink gets airship parts) to exchange to vendors.
As much as this event seems terribly unrewarding (no loot drops, no rewards whatsoever from the events themselves, etc) we already know from the last two beta weekends that the same cannot be said about the events in there. Ofcourse i’m assuming the other maps frollow the same reward structure.
I was in Verdant Brink and yes loot did drop, but its not hard for them to make loot drop so that you tell your friends whom haven’t bought HoT yet that T6 mats etc drop, then after HoT is released WHAM the loot disappears, lets face it, the only thing that has been consistent in the game is the way event rewards get nerfed and loot gets removed,
So I would love an open and honest answer from Anet about how events in the future will go, as of right now, I know of 5 people who are gearing up to ask for a refund on HoT due to this, as they do not want to continue playing a game with no rewards,
This is a major sticking point for players, and yet its continually ignored by Anet devs, if they come here and tell me honestly that events will not drop loot, ( or they will be like SW rewards ) I will happily ask for a refund and move to a new game, then the devs can be happy that someone who wasn’t happy with there game is gone.
Farms for mats have been removed.. but overall rewards have increased.. these days you get loot for logging in.. The amount of loot in the game is not the problem.. the reward system is.
It’s always.. grind currency, buy what you want… That is boring.. increase the loot does not help.. put in a boos that can or will drop a reward (think original Molten Facility (but then not temporary), Liari) and you get a good reward system.
Increasing loot as they do now simply decreased the value of that same loot so in the end everything stays the same, only you now have full bags of full stags of bags you need to open leaving you with Carpal tunnel syndrome.
Farming mats should indeed also be doable.. getting mats should never be the problem.. getting the recipe or something like a precursor should be… while also that should have a more direct approach.
Also in this event, increasing the loot will not solve much (well it might please some of the grinders a bid more) the way you get rewarded is the problem.
Anet has some love for currency, probably because they sell the main currency (gold) and because from an economic perspective currency makes it easy to control things.. But for the game-play it is a boring system.
(edited by Devata.6589)
They’ve stated that the rewards are bugged. Be patient.
Youa re right and wrong. The part that is bugged is players being rewarded with blooms at the end of the event. The part that is working as intended is the Mordrem not dropping anything. No karma, no gold, not loot, no champ boxes for champ kills. That’s all 100% working as intended.
Would that make it better? It’s still grind. If grind is what you like.
While no rewards was an error, yes this is the style of world-scale events, or rather has been so up until now. Pretty fun no? No, I know.
Remember the Karka invasions.. sure it had it’s own problems.. one time did mean some people could not join, DC’s and at some point the killing of Karka’s became a bid tedious, some other mobs in-between would have be fine..
But other then these issue’s it was awesome!
(Also during the beta of GW2 there was some pretty nice world event.)
So we have seen much much better world events in the past.. While after the Karka invasion event they did get worse and lately they have been mainly of the grind some currency type.
It’s sad, especially if you know Anet can do much better..
This.. drop some grindy content, reward some currency and let people grind… I hope with HoT we will see better content.
I appreciate that there are enough people who like that.. because many of those who don’t did leave GW2 in the past.. But I truly hope with the release of HoT we will see some more interesting reward system then this currency love.
You know.. so those people who come back with HoT will not get bored and leave again.
I had high hopes for this event.. (while at the same time maybe already afraid it would be like this) but if what we have seen is it (maybe the patch will fix things?)… it’s a disappointment.. another currency grind to put on the pile.
(edited by Devata.6589)
Good.
Even if it is RNG like Fractal skins that won’t bother me.
As long as it is some doable RNG (so not like 1/10000) it is fine. Then RNG can add to the game.. every time the rush of “will it drop now”. That effect go’s away when it’s a completely unreasonable drop-rate but with doable RNG it will be a pro.
RNG, in theory, should be higher for Raids. The reason being simply there won’t be as many people who do -and complete- them as to what we see in the open-world zergs. Where you have thousands upon thousands of players running around in the Silverwastes day in and day out, you’ll have a few thousand players beat the raid boss(es) every week.
Increasing the RNG on the ‘good’ items seems like it’d be a good deal. It keeps people motivated while getting their Legendary Armor sets going, or they can choose to sell the items to make some money from those that don’t participate in the Raid content.
Think Voltaic Spears, Bone Dragon Staff’s, Draconic Aegis, etc. from GW1. That’s kind of how I see it.
I am not sure what you mean with increase the RNG.. The drop rate can be higher, so it becomes a ‘lower’ RNG.
Let’s say you want the rarity of a pre-cursor and (as an example) let’s say the drop-rate now is 1/1000 but it drops from a lot of places, so it gets looted 1000 times a day. (This would then be your open world zerg example).
That means on average it will drop once per day with a 1/1000 drop-rate.
Now a specific raid-boss would (again as an example) only be done / looted 100 times a day. Then you can have a drop-rate of 1/100 (so a higher drop-rate / lower RNG).
The item will on average then still only drop once a per day.
So you have a more doable RNG where as a player you can work more specific towards an item, other than just grinding gold while the rarity of the items stays the same.
ReiCH.6273
Very correct, now all they have to do is implement legendary armour, skins, minis and titles for the top tier in pvp and wvw and the game will be able to offer something for everyone …True, but until I can play as a Mursaat Dervish then no, the game does not provide me all I want lol
You forget special rewards for JP’s in the dungeons and some other content.
Every game is pay to win, since you need either a console or a computer, both of which cost money. If you don’t have a device, you can’t play a game.
/thread
Using /thread is always a bid weak. You show that you think you know everything and nobody needs to say everything after your statement what is Hilarius..
But even worse when the statement is as bad as this one.
In the past at least you did try to come with arguments (while usually things as “you can never proof that for sure”) but this..? What happened?
He talked about the game, not the hardware.. But if I would really want to go into that.. he could play for free on a friends PC’s… Of course he still needs to eat to stay alive to be able to play the game.. So yeah your right, every game is P2W :S
When you consider the game F2P then maybe.. but you should not consider it F2P, it’s more a game with an extensive free trial account.
If it comes tho this skills at least. Not talking about winning cosmetics. That is another discussion.
Imho they should have never named it F2P, this works confusing.
Well dueling becomes available in guild-halls and they have been introducing mounts slowly since the beginning.
First with the flying broom, the the flying karpet, now the gliders and putting in NPC’s on mounts. Also the WvW char car.
When you go back to the first mount threads all that sort of things where unthinkable and bad. Mounts where bad because they cluttered the screen, of course a flying carpet does the same and no complains about that, they would not fit the lore (they did but anyway) now we see NPC’s on mounts and nobody complains.
So I guess as long as it gets introduced slowly or you give it another name than there are not lot of complains.
And while I am in favor of more mounts, there is one problem, and that is the problem that maps are instances so when you would remove some of the way-points (what would make sense) and introduce more mounts you end up running from one loading screen to the other. And while I would love to see GW2 make the world seamless I don’t think that is very high on there list. While the game could benefit greatly form it.
Do you have to buy deluxe to get it, or will it turn up in the gem store?
At the moment the only sure way is to buy deluxe.
In the past some elements of gameeditions have also been available in the gemstore.
But there where two important elements.
1: it was more expensive
2: it only happened that existing gemstore items where added to new packages (like the profane, primeval or krytan armor skins), never the other way around (like the first rytlock miniature).So if that specific skin is ever going to be added to the gemstore, it will likely be more expensive.
BUT!
As we are getting a wardrobe category for gliders, it is very likely there will be much more other glider skins that will be available. If that will be through the gem-store ? I actually expect them to do that!
Lets however hope that it are great content rewards.. especially the best looking ones.
Wait a sec… so the there’s NO glider at all with the standard edition?
There is a default glider.
https://d3b4yo2b5lbfy.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/55b0bGliding-1-590x331.jpg
That is true and was a strange statement when compared to the other statement.. Now they make money with the gem-store then they make money with expansion but nothing will change.. That is also why I still hold some reservations but the news of the rewards we see in Raids that gives some hope..
It’s pretty simple if you think about it. Just consider 2015 as 2012-2.0. In 2012, you had to buy a box of the game, it gave you a certain amount of “free” weapons and armor as ingame content, and then they continued to add new weapons and armor to the gem store. In 2015, you have to buy another box to advance the game, it contains a certain (smaller) amount of “free” weapons and armor, and they will continue to put items on the gem store as usual. Your experience six months from now will be no different than six months after launch. Now hopefully they will release boxed expansions at a faster rate than they have so far, but that has nothing to do with the gem store, which will continue to go about its business. Everything will be fine, but it will also involve them continuing to put out a new BL weapon set every couple months and new BL outfits occasionally, just as they have been.
Yeah but like I said it was the Living World approach that was the reason for this.. If the next expansion comes lets says 1,5 year from HoT then there is no need to sell the separate items and most new items would be included in the new expansion and os on, and so on. That is truly B2P. Not saying they can sell absolutely nothing in that shop but the question is where the focus is. They could for example also switch to only selling specific things in the store, like only finishers and mail-carriers while keeping toys, mini’s and skins really in the game That would already be much better.
Anyway, we can talk about this as much as we want, Mike did put the focus very much on B2P and we can only wait and see what will happen. I for a fact do hope they will do that as I think this cash-shop focus was one of the biggest reason the reward system was what it was and made the game as it was (grindy). So it would really benefit the game.
Like I said.. we will have to see what happens with the model.. Mike specifically talked multiple times about B2P and earning the money buy getting people to buy HoT.
And he also said that nothing was changing about the gem store. Read that as “nothing is changing.” The eocnomic model is the same today as it was six months ago and will be in six months, they will add some items to the game world as a value of purchase for the expansion, but they will continue to add items to the gem store that are good too, and if you want to earn those through ingame activities that don’t involve grinding for gold, then you have to figure out a way for those ingame activities to reward ANet is cash money, rather than warm fuzzies.
Why do you keep leaving out that half of the conversation?
That is true and was a strange statement when compared to the other statement.. Now they make money with the gem-store then they make money with expansion but nothing will change.. That is also why I still hold some reservations but the news of the rewards we see in Raids that gives some hope..
Nothing is changing on the gem-store is also a little vague term.. what we will see no new items in there? That is nothing changing. Really, all I think he did try to say there was that they would not stat selling unlocks for Free To Play players as he specifically said that in the content of the Free to Play players.. We will not monetize the F2P players, nothing is going to change to the gem-store.
But your right.. that was a bit vague especially when setting it off against the statements about B2P and that they would earn the money buy selling people the expansion.
That is also why I am still not 100% convince everything will be fine, but the signs are good so far.
Can we maybe drop the term Hardcore.. Because what is hardcore.. The people who now have the best rewards grind all day but don’t really need (not saying they do not have!) any skill.. So are they hardcore because the grind all day or are they casual because they don’t need any skill.
I name them the Hardcore casuals.
It’s a fair term, but you need to understand the intended context. There is “hardcore” that means “content that most people can’t accomplish easily,” and there is the opposing “casual” that means “content that pretty much anyone can do.” Then there is a completely separate axis of “hardcore” that means “applying serious dedication to a given task,” and its opposing “casual” which means “applying minimal effort to a given task.”
Now it’s true, there are people who are hardcore/hardcore, that enjoy crazy hard content and will do it for many hours per day, there are hardcore/casuals who enjoy difficult content but would only dabble in it occasionally, there are casual/hardcore that hate difficult content but will play easy stuff for many hours, and casual/casual that hate difficulty and only dabble occasionally.
For the purposes of this sort of discussion though, the first set of definitions are the ones most people are using, reflecting the challenge level of the content. Personally I would account myself a semi-casual/semi-hardcore player. I like a little challenge, but not a punishing level, and I spend a decent amount of time in, but not more than a couple hours a day. I’m willing to work for weeks or months on a long term goal if need be, but I want genuine progression along the way, not repeated failures in the hope that success will eventually come.
If I am good in Jumping Puzzles but bad in raids, does that then make me a hardcore because I am good at JP’s or a casual because I am not good in raid..
It would make you potentially hardcore at JPs but casual at raiding, and since we’re talking about raiding, the latter is the one that actually matters here. Now, if they implemented a system by which you could earn raiding rewards by completing jumping puzzles, your JP skills would allow you to matter too.
People simply want content to be rewarding in a fun way (well many do at least), that has nothing to do with hardcore or elites or any of those terms.
It is only elitist if they want to keep those rewards out of the hands of those who do not enjoy the same level of challenge.
Well when looking it from that perspective then maybe you are also hardcore at something (there must be some content you are above average in) and then it’s nice if you would also be specifically rewarded for that. Well that is how I feel about it.
So Elitist is rewarding?.. you know because if you can get everything in any way it’s not really rewarding anyway.
In fact I think that is one of the mistakes Anet made imho.. From the starts people have been complaining about the bad rewards in GW2 and so Anet did keep increasing rewards, now when you do a bid of EotM you bags are full in no time (what you can sell for geld) however complains have never stopped.. Why, because such rewards don’t really feel like rewards.
Just ast 90 % of the rewards, and 95% of the best looking rewards are now locked behind a gold-grind.
Pleeeeeeeeeeease stop talking about Gem store items as if they are in-game content. They are cash purchases. Every one of them is a cash purchase. You might be choosing to grind for gold rather than spending cash yourself, but ultimately that item is being purchased with cash, and if you aren’t doing it then someone else has. Stop talking about them as if they intend for players to be grinding for gold to afford them, rather than that just being a secondary method of acquiring them for players too cheap to pay in cash themselves.
The gem store will NEVER be balanced against actual gameplay, and no amount of complaining will ever change that.
Also, HoT changes nothing on that score. The game launched with dozens of armor sets that came free with the box, HoT is coming with around 12 total sets of armor that come free with the box, same/same. GW2 launched with things coming out on the gem store, and they promised in that presentation that they would continue that as well. Nothing is changing.
They are usually some of the best looking items in the game and so the type of items you want to be rewarded in the game from the content.
Yes now they are Gem store items… that is the problem!
Then again, enough has been said about that in the other thread, we just now have some new information.
Like I said.. we will have to see what happens with the model.. Mike specifically talked multiple times about B2P and earning the money buy getting people to buy HoT.
Indeed GW2 started good and then went more into the cash-shop model, likely also because of their LW idea’s that would not work with expansions.. Maybe they are now making the shift back.. We will have to see.. If Mike O’Brien’s talk about B2P and selling the box holds any value then we will see that move.
(edited by Devata.6589)
Good.
Even if it is RNG like Fractal skins that won’t bother me.
As long as it is some doable RNG (so not like 1/10000) it is fine. Then RNG can add to the game.. every time the rush of “will it drop now”. That effect go’s away when it’s a completely unreasonable drop-rate but with doable RNG it will be a pro.
Well Ohoni, looks like your dream of non exclusive rewards are shattered
Yeah, it’s not looking good, but I’m glad you’re happy that I’m sad, that’s the mark of a truly great person.
We can only hope that they continue to iterate on this design and make these rewards available through other means (aside from the trophies, which can stay).
Why wouldn’t you have exclusive rewards for specific content? Even Tequatl has exclusive rewards, and Fractals, and Dungeons, and Dry Top, and the Silverwastes… What would be the purpose of not having exclusive rewards?
It allows people who want those rewards to earn them, even if they have no interest in Raids. Raids are, by their nature, exclusionary content that most players are not intended to complete. By locking these rewards behind raiding, it puts them off limits for large portions of the players, which is antithetical to GW2’s basic philosophy of inclusion. They’ve turned to the Dark Side.
While it does go against what they’ve said on some level, they have absolutely no way of giving hardcore players something worthwhile if it’s available to every mediocre/inexperienced player who stumbles into every random group they can.
Hardcore players want to show off what they’ve accomplished just because it’s exclusively earned through their effort and hardwork. If you look at legendaries and ascended gear, they lost their status very quickly with how mindless and profitable a lot of open world grinding is. Hardcore players are entirely left behind while casuals literally have everything they want.
Hardcore players are finally getting their own shard of content that’s for them, while casuals get EVERYTHING else. If a casual player wants to be a completionist, all they have to do is put the effort into working with 9 other players to clear very demanding content.
Can we maybe drop the term Hardcore.. Because what is hardcore.. The people who now have the best rewards grind all day but don’t really need (not saying they do not have!) any skill.. So are they hardcore because the grind all day or are they casual because they don’t need any skill.
I name them the Hardcore casuals.
If I am good in Jumping Puzzles but bad in raids, does that then make me a hardcore because I am good at JP’s or a casual because I am not good in raid.. nonetheless, I would like to have a nice unique reward for beating the the Jumping Puzzle (in x time).
People simply want content to be rewarding in a fun way (well many do at least), that has nothing to do with hardcore or elites or any of those terms.
It allows people who want those rewards to earn them, even if they have no interest in Raids. Raids are, by their nature, exclusionary content that most players are not intended to complete. By locking these rewards behind raiding, it puts them off limits for large portions of the players, which is antithetical to GW2’s basic philosophy of inclusion. They’ve turned to the Dark Side.
Just ast 90 % of the rewards, and 95% of the best looking rewards are now locked behind a gold-grind.
Well then imho it’s good to also have some things directly locked behind specific content.
This is what GW2 missed and might be one of the biggest improvements coming with HoT.. at least if they will do this rewards for content, on many other places as well.
I did get some hope for this when Mike went on and on about B2P on the presentation, while I still have to see if they will indeed start behaving like B2P so far the future looks bright.
Great! Finally content that is rewarding. Imho almost all content should be like this but it’s a good start.
So maybe Mike’s talk about B2P in fact did mean that is a road they are going into.
Hope we will see this in more content. Less gem-store items, more rewards ingame.
It increases the value of the item and it increases the fun of the content.
I do hope it are also some of the best looking rewards. Not that some very hard dungeon gives you some sword but you can buy a similar sword but with particals effects from the cash-shop.
“I’m interested in seeing if these rewards are actually end of raid chest RNG (like teq hoard) or will they be dropping in the raids from the mobs/bosses …. thoughts?
I just hope its not like frac skins RNG right now….”
If there are indeed multiple rewards per dungeon it could be a mix. Something that is rewarded for completing, something that can drop (with doable RNG) from the end-boss (no need for it to be a chest, those chest are a little strange anyway) and some can drop from mobs.
(edited by Devata.6589)
Since i have read this :
https://www.reddit.com/r/pcgaming/comments/3j1916/get_your_popcorn_ready_nv_gpus_do_not_support/I now really wish we get DX-12 .. lol
AMD has an advantage on the number of Async cals it can handle, Nvidia does have some other advantages. Ashes of the Singularity happens to make a lot of use of that.
Don’t forget that Ashes of the Singularity really always has been a AMD game, it was also used to show of Mantle where people from AMD and from Oxide where showing their product side by side. So I guess you have to take everything it with a grain of salt. We will see what will happen but Nvidia could come in big troubles if they sell a product as DirectX 12 while it isn’t so I guess everything is a bid more nuanced then we see now.
We will have to wait for GW3 for that….and to be honest…they should do the WoW thing, just keep making the game you have that people like better rather than trying to reinvent the wheel.
I agree, and in fact Anet had already stated that is what they wanted to do. I think the quote was something along the lines of. “GW2 will evolve into GW3”.
However in order to really do that, you will also need upgrade the core like upgrading to a newer DirectX.. When you want to make the comparison with WoW, just as WoW.
I think it is in fact a selling point, many people will add value to that even when it is not something you can directly see. Also it can help with implementation of VR again something that can be a selling point.
And let’s say that Anet would be able to make seamless zones (something that requires an upgrade on the core), that would also be a selling point. So improvements to the core will usually result into selling points.
HoT Price Feedback + Base game included [merged]
in Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns
Posted by: Devata.6589
I don’t think there has to be a separation for it to be B2P.. B2P basically mean you buy the content to use / play it. Is does not matter that that content is an addition to an already existing platform.
in order to access SWOTOR’s expansion content you need to buy it. However the game, just like this one now is, is classed as F2P.
The model Anet has been using the last 2,5 years I would also define as F2P or cash-shop. Simply because they focused on the cash-shop for income, not on the game and expansions. That was also very noticeable with the best cosmetics in the store instead of in the game.
With HoT I hope they do what Mike said, and earn money by / focus on selling the game, so then it would become a B2P game again, we will see.
But that was not the discussion. phys said it could not be / become B2P because it was not a separate product on what I commented that that is not a requirement for it to be a B2P product.
HoT Price Feedback + Base game included [merged]
in Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns
Posted by: Devata.6589
Im not going to continue to argue the logic behind paying the same price just for expansion as others pay for the whole game. This only makes people who obviously support this decision attempt to insult my intelligence which I am not interested in. As Gale said, I will just not buy HoT which probably means my time here is pretty much expired. I had no idea I was buying a time gated game when I bought GW2 but I have been wrong before.
I understand now after reading the arguments that buying this game entitles you to about 3 years of fun according to some people (Including Anet) That is fine, but I cant afford to upgrade me and my familys accounts at this price and dont agree that I should have to. Im sure that many in my guild will pay though as we were founded during beta and have spent a lot of time and effort building to this point. If they do, they will probably be playing HoT content which leaves me with no guild to play with so I guess my days are over. I will miss this game however so I will say good job on making 2 great games that have filled my free time for 10 years Anet!
With all due respect, but this game has been initial sold as being B2P, then you should have expected this.. in fact you should have expected the first €50,- expansion as soon as a year after release (also see GW1), and the next one a year later and now it would have been the 3th. However they went the cash-shop way meaning they did try you to convince buying in-game items instead of expansions.
It is not really time-gated but to already have the latest stuff you will need to always buy the latest expansion.. what I personally find better than having fun items being moved to a cash-shop.
I have no problems with paying money, but I want to pay for a good product, not pay less, or nothing for a product and then have a lesser product for it because they try to earn the money in other ways. As long as they now start behaving as a B2P game all is fine.
actually its definately time gated, im not saying thats good or bad, but the model is definately set up in a different manner than buy 2 play.
buy 2 play involves a separation of concerns that gw2 will not have. Gw1 was buy to play. Prophecies was seperate from factions seperate from nightfall, even eye of the north was fairly self contained.
Gw2 new model is a time gating more than buy 2 play.
What is going on depends on time.
old game = free to play
new game = exclusive access to new stuff
wait long enough, new games cycles to old game.What you are buying now is exclusive access to things until the next expansion.
also there isnt that separation.
fractals are effected by buying the new content
precursor quest is based on the old content, but its locked to the new game. Core masteries are based on old content, but locked in new game.the business model is basically a free to play with timed exclusivities.
Not that thats a horrible thing, but it has its own ups and downs.
The biggest unknowns now, is how they will develop/release content under this new plan, how long between purchases, and how much content with expansion.
Right now, it seems like content for new expansion is low (to me)
time between content is unknown.I think they themselves arent sure yet exactly how this will effect their development strategies and execution.
anet is a bit ADD, they love to try new things, on the flip side, they dont usually move forward/refine a lot because they constantly change direction. I would be surprised if this whole model they set up ends up changing before the next “expansion” (air quotes because they will probably change their plan) hits.
I don’t think there has to be a separation for it to be B2P.. B2P basically mean you buy the content to use / play it. Is does not matter that that content is an addition to an already existing platform.
“What you are buying now is exclusive access to things until the next expansion.”
We don’t know that. When we get the next expansion (hopefully in 1 / 1,5 year form now) will HoT become F2P, yes they you are right and it is basically a F2P time-gated game that lets you buy out of that time-gate.. or will the same core (not including HoT) stay F2P but do you need to then buy the latest expansion. If that is the case it’s just B2P imho… Well if they behave as B2P, if at the same time they keep using th gem-store as they do it’s more a cash-shop game.
I would think and hope they will always keep this same core free but don’t add the expansions to it when a new one gets released, else you get a huge group lagging behind just to play for free, meaning Anet will try to earn money from them with the cash-shop doing exactly what mike said they would not do.. He clearly said they wanted to earn money from them buy selling them the expansion they would want to buy.
To be honest ANet business model in general was kinda cool to me, or at least it was until they came up with HoT. I’ll be honest, I’m perfectly cool with them publishing the game and then making money with microtransations, as long they let me play a completely functional game and leave the microtransations for completely optional things or to speed up my progress.
This as long the ultimate goal is reachable with or without making use of these microtransactions.
If you can get gems to get exclusive appearance, get extra character slots, buy stuff that is available for gold as well (To spare yourself from the pain of farming.), then I’m totally cool with it. It’s not ANet greediness, more trust upon different people giving different value to the same thing and being able to make big money out of this.
Now, what concern me are different things:
The first is how they decided to give for free the Core Game and raise the price of HoT to a full game pricetag, rather than an expansion. Again, I consider this a poor choice, but don’t associate this to greediness. In fact, I believe is the strategy they came up to manage making the income NCSoft required for them to make out of HoT.
To explain myself better:
It’s evident people are no more interested in the game, beside the enthusiasts here on the Forum, if ANet had decided to give a free access to the game there should be a reason and for sure isn’t charity or good heart.
It’s pretty reasonable to assume that, if they had gone for a more traditional $30 for HoT and required purchase of the Core Game, even at $20 no one would have purchased the latter. Again, no reason otherwise to make the game free to access if they were expecting more people to come.
HoT at $50 thus becomes the best choice to go for, it kinda ‘forces’ older player to buy it (Because a lot of people will not want to see the progress of their characters to stop.) and including the Core Game may end up luring some of the free players into getting it.
But that means that ANet is literally relying on existing players to keep the balance positive, having little to no faith about the release of HoT being able to bring new blood to the game.
Sure, some people like cash-shop games, other like B2P games. It just depends on your personal preference.
I like the hunt for cosmetics and as you can understand.. selling those items in a cash-shop destroys or at least hurts that game-play so then I prefer B2P where such items should be in the game and where I pay for the content.
The thing is however that this game was being promoted as B2P, and this was done again in the last press-release. So I think it’s perfectly reasonable to then also ask for that. You will not see me very long in a lot of F2P games. I truly hope that they indeed go back to B2P again with HoT.
Also GW2 does not really need to bring new blood to the game (still would be better if they did).. What would be more important is to get back some of the old they lost, and keep it this time.
I’m someone who thinks that fashion should be available from the very begin or, at worst, locked behind crafting professions. Something that would require a bit of effort, but not being an epic adventure to achieve. And I generally frown at companies looking popular colors like black or white behind a pay wall, ESPECIALLY when it comes to hair. So yeah, personal preferences counts a lot in this.
But on the other hand, I’d rather see a fashion cash-shop, where other players can play to look cooler than me, than a power cash shop where I’m required to purchase items with real money to be reasonably competitive in PvP or PvE.
And eh, I’m one of those lost who had returned to see what HoT was bringing to the game and had decided to not give it a try at all due to ANet policy. From my point of view, it feels more like they had given up on the gone and are trying to lure the new blood into this.
I think it is both bad.. cosmetics ‘hurt’ me more than stats because I don’t do PvE and in WvW little less stats don’t make a difference… still I would not suggest that, as I said I think it’s both bad.
A ore important question is.. why did you leave? And what was the reason for that.. So let’s say your reason was “the game got boring”, then why do you think the game got boring for you.
This is something Anet really has to fix.. If they do, you (or people like you) might come back in a few months anyway and even more important, this time you might stay, buying the next expansion and the 3th and so on.
To be honest ANet business model in general was kinda cool to me, or at least it was until they came up with HoT. I’ll be honest, I’m perfectly cool with them publishing the game and then making money with microtransations, as long they let me play a completely functional game and leave the microtransations for completely optional things or to speed up my progress.
This as long the ultimate goal is reachable with or without making use of these microtransactions.
If you can get gems to get exclusive appearance, get extra character slots, buy stuff that is available for gold as well (To spare yourself from the pain of farming.), then I’m totally cool with it. It’s not ANet greediness, more trust upon different people giving different value to the same thing and being able to make big money out of this.
Now, what concern me are different things:
The first is how they decided to give for free the Core Game and raise the price of HoT to a full game pricetag, rather than an expansion. Again, I consider this a poor choice, but don’t associate this to greediness. In fact, I believe is the strategy they came up to manage making the income NCSoft required for them to make out of HoT.
To explain myself better:
It’s evident people are no more interested in the game, beside the enthusiasts here on the Forum, if ANet had decided to give a free access to the game there should be a reason and for sure isn’t charity or good heart.
It’s pretty reasonable to assume that, if they had gone for a more traditional $30 for HoT and required purchase of the Core Game, even at $20 no one would have purchased the latter. Again, no reason otherwise to make the game free to access if they were expecting more people to come.
HoT at $50 thus becomes the best choice to go for, it kinda ‘forces’ older player to buy it (Because a lot of people will not want to see the progress of their characters to stop.) and including the Core Game may end up luring some of the free players into getting it.
But that means that ANet is literally relying on existing players to keep the balance positive, having little to no faith about the release of HoT being able to bring new blood to the game.
Sure, some people like cash-shop games, other like B2P games. It just depends on your personal preference.
I like the hunt for cosmetics and as you can understand.. selling those items in a cash-shop destroys or at least hurts that game-play so then I prefer B2P where such items should be in the game and where I pay for the content.
The thing is however that this game was being promoted as B2P, and this was done again in the last press-release. So I think it’s perfectly reasonable to then also ask for that. You will not see me very long in a lot of F2P games. I truly hope that they indeed go back to B2P again with HoT.
Also GW2 does not really need to bring new blood to the game (still would be better if they did).. What would be more important is to get back some of the old they lost, and keep it this time.
Main this is, that it should be locked behind content. It then makes sense that harder content rewards better items then easy content. That does not mean that easy content should also not reward very good items.
The important part is that it’s rewarded ingame, not how hard the content is.
Gear IS rewarded ingame. Do you get anything with stats from the gem store? Or are you suggesting they lock cosmetics with no stats or usefulness whatsoever behind difficult content?
Yes.
I keep seeing this name thrown around….Who the heck is Sam???
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mike_O'Brien
Not sure why people name him Sam, but they do so I guess if that’s how he likes to be named.
Edit: Oke, idk.. I have seen the name Sam being used.. Well I will keep it at Mike O’Brien to keep it clear.
(edited by Devata.6589)
@Devata – the way it is now, everybody gets a great base experience and if they want bling, they pay for it. Your proposal means that players like me (who don’t want bling) would be subsidising players like you (who do). Does that sound fair?
It’s about the reward system, that is part of what makes content good. No the way I describe it you just pay for the content.. that is it, you do not pay for the bling, the bling is part of the content.
The way it is now, people who buy the bling pay your content, and worse, the content suffers for it. So it’s just the other way around.
One of the biggest problems imho with PvE is the reward system. Everything is currency-based and ‘best’ cosmetic items are not locked behind the hardest content but are being sold.
What do you think would happen if all the ‘best’ cosmetic items are were locked behind the hardest content instead ? First the casual would complain then they quit, Good job you just kill a game that was made for casual player. I don’t agreed with many of Anet decision but I also understand that they are a business. Do I want more and better BLINGs to be world drop hell yeah I do but not at the cost of the game get shutdown do to lack of income.
Main this is, that it should be locked behind content. It then makes sense that harder content rewards better items then easy content. That does not mean that easy content should also not reward very good items.
Also how much of “the hardest content” would there be.. 3 / 6 things? Let’s say they reward 2 items, you are talking about 12 items max.. all the rest in in easier content.
The important part is that it’s rewarded ingame, not how hard the content is.
HoT Price Feedback + Base game included [merged]
in Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns
Posted by: Devata.6589
Im not going to continue to argue the logic behind paying the same price just for expansion as others pay for the whole game. This only makes people who obviously support this decision attempt to insult my intelligence which I am not interested in. As Gale said, I will just not buy HoT which probably means my time here is pretty much expired. I had no idea I was buying a time gated game when I bought GW2 but I have been wrong before.
I understand now after reading the arguments that buying this game entitles you to about 3 years of fun according to some people (Including Anet) That is fine, but I cant afford to upgrade me and my familys accounts at this price and dont agree that I should have to. Im sure that many in my guild will pay though as we were founded during beta and have spent a lot of time and effort building to this point. If they do, they will probably be playing HoT content which leaves me with no guild to play with so I guess my days are over. I will miss this game however so I will say good job on making 2 great games that have filled my free time for 10 years Anet!
With all due respect, but this game has been initial sold as being B2P, then you should have expected this.. in fact you should have expected the first €50,- expansion as soon as a year after release (also see GW1), and the next one a year later and now it would have been the 3th. However they went the cash-shop way meaning they did try you to convince buying in-game items instead of expansions.
It is not really time-gated but to already have the latest stuff you will need to always buy the latest expansion.. what I personally find better than having fun items being moved to a cash-shop.
I have no problems with paying money, but I want to pay for a good product, not pay less, or nothing for a product and then have a lesser product for it because they try to earn the money in other ways. As long as they now start behaving as a B2P game all is fine.
Well the thing is.. People can defend Anet as much as they want and I will not say they are greedy or anything, but the fact is that they do very much try to sell thing with their cash-shop, as that has been their main source of income this last 2 years, and that effects the game in a negative way.
One of the biggest problems imho with PvE is the reward system. Everything is currency-based and ‘best’ cosmetic items are not locked behind the hardest content but are being sold.
Good working reward models in content where Liadri, SAB (while it could have been better, like if the SAB mini’s where a drop in SAB) and MF. It is no coincident that those also where seen as one of the best PvE elements of GW2 by many people.
About half a year after release Anet decided to go for the LS approach and said “if we do this right there will be no expansion”, the rest is history. But it also resulted in them having to get their main income from another source as then the game and expansions (like they did with GW2). So we did see many cool items being introduced, but all in BLC and directly from the cash-shop instead (mostly) of as rewards from content. Makes sense as they have to get people to buy those items.
That resulted in content being less exciting (the possibility that a reward will drop creates excitement), less replayability and meant people would start grinding gold to buy their items.
It really resulted in most of the negative things we do say in GW2 at this moment.
It does then not matter if it’s not P2W (depending on how you define that) or only cosmetics or that you can use gold.. It effected the game in a negative way and that is what matters.
In the last announcement Mike O’Brien, the president of Anet talked about how great B2P was and that they would make the money by selling the game, so I truly hope we will now also see that happening. In fact, that statement is what I was hoping for, now only make is true Anet.
I am also not saying the cash-shop should be completely removed, they can keep selling bank-slots and so on, but most and best cosmetic items should be put in the game as rewards for content and then release the next expansion 1,5 from now as a source for most of the income. Yes, then €50,- is also an acceptable price.
(edited by Devata.6589)
I had a business once. I refused to sell anything because I didn’t want to be greedy and went bankrupt. Can you explain why?
You should have sold something.. You know, like the Anet president says.. We sell the game.
Build locking is only really interesting if the content also really requires specific roles.
I always find it funny how is WoodenPatatoes says something in his video’s, somebody will make a thread about it.
HoT Price Feedback + Base game included [merged]
in Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns
Posted by: Devata.6589
The fact that we don’t have a CE, has that to do with Anet publishing themselves now?
Yeah I had a suspecial something like this was happening. Mainly because of the changed to the agreement.. NCSoft was changed to ArenaNet I noticed.
So maybe we will then go B2P?
As I said Carbine was that way already. The EULA changes were just legal housekeeping since ArenaNet is a subsidiary and thus really it’s own company and always has been.
But why then suddenly change the name NCSOFT in the License Agreement to ArenaNet. That is not “just housekeeping” imho.
Yeah I had a suspecial something like this was happening. Mainly because of the changed to the agreement.. NCSoft was changed to ArenaNet I noticed.
So maybe we will then go truely B2P?
See: https://www.diffchecker.com/bpigie8g
( And: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/New-EULA/first )
(edited by Devata.6589)
The maps would have to be far larger (and far less content dense) and not as many waypoints in order for us to benefit from mounts.
In which case:
-Starting off as a new player/character would be terribly slow and boring
-Veteran players/those who can afford mounts would be in the same boat as we are currently regarding movement speedIf you want them purely for flavour/aesthetic, we already have a few consumables in game that do that (magic carpet, riding broom, tunneller, any tonic).
“The maps would have to be far larger (and far less content dense) and not as many waypoints in order for us to benefit from mounts.”
Even without mounts as reason I would love to see more maps like this.. I have always loved those big open maps with a lot of nothing, and then in the distance a small house where.. Then you go there and that’s where there is stuff to do. Gives more the feeling of the big open world.. Waypoints also take away from that feeling. Main problem in GW2 for mounts is the fact that all maps are instances, so you would be driving form loading screen to loading screen.
That is likely also the reason why they introduce them first in WvW as you stay in the same map most of the time anyway, while in PvE they introduce the glider mounts what more fits with the horizontal maps.
HoT is all about dense maps, maybe the next expansion is more about open maps and then we might see the ground mounts also being introduced there.. who knows.
people have asked the dev’s constantly for mounts and they told us it will never happen.
Before some one asks for proof i’m not about to go hunting the interwebs for that information.
Nobody will ask you for proof, we all know it’s false what you are saying. Colin himself said mounts are an option but it should be in a GW2-way. When the interviewer asked if that could mean combat mounts he said that would be possible (or somethign along those lines).
Also we have already cosmetic only mounts in PvE, and with HoT mounts with speed-buff in WvW.
This game should really benefit from having some sort of vehicle transportation (mounts).
My suggestion u can make it gem store item with limited time use or permanent use. 30% to 50% speed bonus. No combat when on vehicle. When hit player dismounts and vehicle is stored in the bag slot or can be assighned to one of F1-F12 buttons with cooldown. Charr styled machine would really fit into the lore, a buggy or a motorcycle.
“My suggestion u can make it gem store item with limited time use or permanent use. " Yeah, let’s completely destroy 90% of the fun of these items.. collecting htem, getting them as reward, finding rare ones and so on.
No.. When they would be implemented they should be put in the game word.. Thing you create with crafts, rewards for dungeons, quest / events, raids, guild-related activities (like the char cars that wil become availible) and so on.
Like Mike O’Brien / The president said.. Anet monitizes the game by selling it.. So no need to sell these items seperately.
And yes, what you ask for here (luckily not the gem-store part) is confirmed for HoT already. https://d3b4yo2b5lbfy.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/10918Charr-Car-1.jpg But so far only available in WvW.
@briggah.7910 Well then you are in luck. Those mounts perfectly fit your description.
(edited by Devata.6589)
Kevin Smith plays
Does he? He was very famous in 2000
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WeYsTmIzjkw
And I play it as well.
Kreejaffa, notice all the Chappa’ai in this game?
I have noticed. I think we should be seeing a Goa’uld invasion in the Living Story at some point.
That would be the best LS ever. One huge ha’tak in the air and many al’kesh attacking us.
Oh dont troll! LOL Seriously though, do any play?
I really don’t know any other famous people playing, no trolling, sorry.
And I play it as well.
Other famous people I do not know about, I happen to know Felicia Day owns a copy of the game, but don’t think she plays.
Kreejaffa, notice all the Chappa’ai in this game?
(edited by Devata.6589)
and no its not bad design to create an open world without direction – its open world – its an mmorpg not a single person linear game. its a different mindset – its a different kind of game – it doesnt hold your hand and tell you where to go you have to make….dunh dunh dunnnnnh DECISIONS either you like open world or you dont. sounds like the majority of posters on this thread need to go back to their console single player games where content is set out in a tidy neat fashion for them to mindlessly consume untill they reach the end and become real winners.
in open world you have to provide a lot of you’re own entertainment and goals – not everyone likes that. then they come whine and complain on the forums – ignore the whiners and complainers gw2 is pretty cool if you can provide even a small amount of imagination. I know its hard for the kitten kitten mindset of the main stream to grasp that.
Quest and rewards (hidden behind content) still don’t take your hand, you still have to accept the quest or set yourself to goal to go for some reward. But they are an incentive to explore, they give you idea’s and reasons to visit specific places, they give you story and a connection to the world.
In that way they are a type of guidance, but still very open. Not saying that isn’t available in GW2, but here it comes in the form of dots on your map what is not a very interesting way, maybe an NPC running to you asking for help (that is a good example of how GW2 solves it) however that does not happen all that much.
So maybe it’s even more incentive then guidance.