You’ll most likely never get anywhere until you set some goals. Pick something, anything and work towards it. That should provide some measure of progression for you.
If AP is a metric you like to use, start there for your goals. use the achievement tab in your hero window to guide you.
If your social circle is waning – reach out, try a new guild or two to find new friends.
I too don’t have a legendary, hopefully with HOT I can start working on earning one as opposed to playing the RNG game. Since you have HOT, that may be a goal for you as well.
I myself had to take a long break from the game due to work. When I returned to the normal world my interest in GW2 was reinvigorated. Nothing wrong with taking a break and coming back as Miss Lana advised.
I’d recommend not using gold as a metric for progress, if you are anything like me you’ll find it comes and goes. I am a sucker for buying new shinies. Gold comes naturally from playing, moreso if you farm (but that can burn one out fast).
If you have fun playing try to think of that alone as the primary value of the game, not abstract markers or pixilated trophies.
I wish you the best and I hope you can find what you are looking for.
The only problem with setting goals in GW2, the activity to get the reward usually means grinding (mainly gold), So if that is not your thing then ‘setting goals for yourself’ isn’t really an option.
Compare that to some other MMO’s, when you see a nice mini and set your goal to get it, you might end up doing a dungeon and then you see a skin what sends you all over the world in following / completing some quest-chain, the next item you are after might require you to do a mini-dungeon in some area you have never visited before, then the next item requires you to fight a boss to get a recipe, then farm some mats and make it.
That experience of hunting down items (where the items become your goal) is very different in GW2, and when OP says “Ï have nothing to show for it” I think his ‘goals’ are along this line but then the question becomes if grinding is what he wants to do.
My 3 year anniversary in this game is coming up, and I realize I have nothing to show for it. My AP is barely at 5k, I have yet to find a precursor (when 2 friends of mine who started the game less than a year ago have both found at least one without even going through the Mystic toilet – something I’ve dumped more than 500 gold into), have no legendary items, my guilds are dead and dying due to the game being so stale, and I have less than 10g in my wallet.
I’m not a super hardcore player, but I play this game a good amount – and it never feels like I’m getting anywhere in this game. I bought the expansion yesterday, and I feel kind of excited for it, but I also have this bad feeling it won’t really change anything.
Well if you are reward focused (what it looks like) and so like hunting and earning rewards is what you like, there really is only one option and that is grinding gold.
Earning cosmetics and other fun items, just isen’t a lot of fun in GW2 because it’s mainly monitized.
So try other elements of the game, doing fractals or WvW or PvP, maybe one of those things are interesting for you. I am also a person who likes the hunt for cosmetics but that just is close to nonextisence in GW2 (other then grinding). But I happen to like the guild-stuff and WvW. So maybe one of those things is also fun for you?
The president of said monitazation of HoT would be based on selling the game so maybe the hunt for comsnetics gets fun in HoT but we will now know that untill hoT is availible for a while. I know the raid will reward legendary armor, so if implemented correctly that can be a lot of fun. then you can do content and be rewarded for it.
@Devata
Part of the problem is that without adversary you cannot have rewarding gameplay moments. You need to have some – even if faked – sense of danger. GW2 frequently lacks this until lvl40+ or so when you start to run into some of the zones where you can actually die.
Partly true, it depends on what type of rewards you like. I also hold more game-play value to an item that is rewarded for doing something challeging then for simple to get items.
However, some items can just be fun to have and a quest can add lore to an items.. ‘I helped that lady find the body of her son, and then she asked me to take care of his pet..’ That then adds value to the mini-pet or maybe ranger pet you got as reward for that quest. Even while finding the body was then many not very challeging.
Now it’s more like.. you run into an area where an hearth is or an event, you help and get some gold, maybe a green you use until you get a better one. I can understand how that is.. well more boring.
Interesting read. With the NPE Anet did try to hold people because they noticed many did leave even before getting to 80, but in order to do that they made it even more easy. When you read this, the problem might have been that is was already too easy.
Personally I think a mix of traditional quest (with fun interesting rewards and a little lore around them you learn about in the quest) and events would also have been better instead of purely the events, and no PoI. Now leveling for a new player soon becomes running from PoI, to Waypoint, to hearth to hero thingy. If then the encounters that you have in-between are also easy and the rewards are functional but not very interesting then it’s not strange many people might get bored before getting to lvl 80.
I remember leveling my first character was a lot of fun with all the new players running around, but the alts weren’t that much fun so I do understand the problems he runs into. Let’s hope HoT will add the challenge many people are looking for.
HoT Price Feedback + Base game included [merged]
in Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns
Posted by: Devata.6589
I see a lot of people looking at the time spend in game as a measurement.. but you should then also look at what you are doing and how fun it is.
It is no secret that huge amount of people are just grinding away to then buy the items they like, when you ask them many of them even say they don’t really like the grind but “what else should I do?.. Besides, I am watching a movie on my other screen so it’s fine”. You can’t equal 1 hour of that to an hour of intensive playing in a FPS.
Just my two cents about the hours spend.
If it comes to the €50,- I really can’t say if it is worth it.. When looking at the marked then for a cash-shop game it would be too expensive, for a B2P game it’s not. Mike O’Brien said they would use the B2P model where they monetize the game, but that did not happen during the last 2 years where the cash-shop was there monetization.
So if it is worth the price really depends on what will happen with this in the coming year imho.
Will we see more items ingame, less in the cash-shop and the next expansion not too far away, so truly B2P, than it’s very much worth the price, if not then it’s kind of expensive when compared to the market.
(edited by Devata.6589)
-Chaos. I love it when there isn’t a set routine, or super specific strategy required to beat something. Just make a boss fight chaotic with stuff happening all over the place (Molten Alliance Facility bosses were great).
-Bosses that have both AoE as well as single-target attacks. Gives people time to maybe res a downed teammate, but also prevents a boss from constantly bullying one single player all the time (Gigantics Lupicus minus the constant focus on one player). Also, if the boss is going to focus on a teammember, make it random instead of binding it to a specific stat or whatever.
So basically good AI that also has a lot of random action worked into it.
I totally agree, this would require skill instead of knowledge, and skill should always be more important than knowledge because knowledge simply becomes a trick when everybody knows he the mechanism works.
I don’t know if you can really consider them boss fights, but the many skill challenges (now hero challenges or something) where you had to basically fight a mini boss I did find interesting / fun, especially when you were a few levels to low (I am not sure you can still do that under your level after the NPE). Those where always fun fights, they usually required some specific tactics because the boss had some special tricks.. Also dodging on the right moment was important. It was also really a good way to learn your profession.
It was similar to the bosses you did fight in the Liadri challenge. The big bosses like world-bosses are less interesting because you don’t really make a big difference (partly because as lack of roles). Everybody just does damage and eventually the boss will go down. I do hope the raid bosses do really require every person to do his task so it does feel more like your contribution really matters. In dungeons now you really only have that feeling when you are the last man standing and you need to help everybody up.
HoT Price Feedback + Base game included [merged]
in Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns
Posted by: Devata.6589
$50 is bad, but $15/month for some p2p games with a couple updates per year is ok. Logic.
No it’s not.. who did say that?? Tell us.. silly him.
HoT Price Feedback + Base game included [merged]
in Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns
Posted by: Devata.6589
It is defiantly worth it.. if the Anet employees do as their president says.. Monetize by selling the game, not with the gems-tore. (That is basically what he said around 39 min into the reveal).
I like Sam, we are on the same line.. well about what model is best and how it should work.. not so much as how it works in practice in GW2 I guess.
But I must agree, two new armor set, 5 new weapon sets and 60 new items is a little low, depending on what is all including. Do they just mean 2 / 5 new full sets but are there in addition also other skins rewarded and are they then included in those 60 items? Are new consumables that are sold by merchants just as new gray items (I expect to see also new items like that to add same flavor) also included in those 60 items or do they only mean the more interesting items?
We do know they include mini’s and I would have loved to see at least 20 of those as rewards in the game maybe 10 glider skins, some specific weapon and armor skins, toys and so on.. But then 60 is not a lot.
It could have all been a bid more and then no new items like that in the cash-shop.. but it also depends a little on what is included in those 60 items. Maybe it is in fact a little more as it looks.
We know for examples that they will be adding new raids but not at release, maybe they also get specific rewards (other than the legendary armor) like mini’s, toys, gliders, skins, finishers and so on, but are they not included in those 60 items because they get added later. That would at least be best.
Also the number of maps could be a bid more.. but other than that I am fine with the expansion and the price.. If they now indeed start behaving as a B2P game!.
(edited by Devata.6589)
Just to address a few of the things being said here.
One of the things being mentioned here is that conversations keep going into circles. This might be true while not completely. Yes many conversation do go in circles however usually every circle also something new gets added.
Also it’s really the nature of how forums work. Let’s take as example the CDI about guild-halls. At the beginning the discussion was about the possibility for open world guild-halls (and housing). Some people said it would not be possible in the current system, you could not place buildings in the world, based on that some options where discussed how it would be possible, like new maps or guild-ships (while more like the wizard’s tower). The discussion moved on everybody holding his own idea as base, somewhere more talking about open world, some about instance guild-halls. Then a few pages later, a new persons enters the conversation and notice somebody is talking about open world-housing, and start telling this is impossible, so you explain him it would be based on the options talked about before.. This comes to an end and the conversation continues, until the next person enters the conversation and the same happens and so on. Just as threads like this one keep popping up and both sides say the same as they did in the previous threads.
Another thing mentioned here is that the ‘whiners’ are just a small group and don’t represent the majority of the people who play.. That might be true, but they might in fact represent a big group of the players that did play the game in the past and left. That group is likely coming back with HoT and assuming Anet would want to hold them this time you might want to know what reasons those people had to leave.
Lastly I would like to add that somebody does not have to be a whiner just because he is negative. Personally I mainly complain about 1 issue (reward system, and the reason behind it) because I think it’s the biggest problem GW2 has. Simply defining people QQing because they disagree or dislike something and talk about it is worse than the whining itself, because really all you do is trying to dismiss something without a good reasoning behind it. Same btw for naming somebody a White Night, that is basically the same but from the other side.
I would not consider anybody a whiner unless he seems to be complaining about everything and you can find him in completely random thread complaining about all those different things. And a white night would be somebody you could find all over the place defending everything.
Yeah, I did never really understand why they made changes to it… it was good. Oke, I can understand that there was a small problem because OS counted as the players of EB, but still, back then it was a really fun map, I also liked that you could place siege inside, that added to the challenge.
I do wonder how many people are / would be interested in VR-support for GW2, but I do think, good native VR support would be a good feature to release with HoT and could even be a selling-point.
There are coming two VR-sets to the market very soon. Vive will be released in December of 2015 and Oculus VR will be released Q1 of 2016. So you are probably talking about 1 to 3 months after HoT gets released. One of the major issues to overcome, outside of the UI is that the major VR API’s (GameWorks VR and the Oculust Api) require DX11 / 12.
I do not think proper first person view (I am guessing you mean that you can also see you hands and stuff?) is required. Especially because I don’t think playing GW2 with VR will give the best experience in first person view. Especially when fighting in groups that would be a mess. 3th person would imho be best, only now you can look all around you, and the head of the character follows the movement of your head.
Anybody else here interested in VR for GW2?
When you don’t add incentive to it, i’d say 10% of the population.
When you do add incentive to it, i’d say 40% at least would do it once. But only because that initial 10% stuck around and willingly or not, educated other people on how to do it.Ok then, so taking those numbers, assuming that the remaining 60% would like the reward too, why should they be happy about this? What’s in it for them?
Look i get what you are saying, you’ve somewhat convinced me exclusive isn’t that important, however the incentive needs to be strong enough. That means that for every single person of those 40%, the hardcore content needs to be the ideal option to get the reward.
Other then that i don’t mind there being a seriously timegated other way to get the reward. But the optimal way to get a reward should always be do the content that the reward belongs to. The 60% that doesn’t want to do it can have the option to go for the same rewards as me, i wouldn’t have a problem with that. What i would have a problem with is if for the average player, this option would be better then going for the hardcore content. Because if that is the case you directly draw people away from that content, and that affects me and my ability to find groups for it.
Personally i would like it best if the skins were exclusive for a few months, but that the non-hardcore way would become available as soon as a certain amount of people beat the content, or just after a certain time period. I personally think that would be the best way, but i would be fine with anything that doesn’t hurt the incentive to actually do the content.
That basically always has been my compromise in the many discussions about this subject. But it still removes a lot of the meaning that comes with the item.
So yea, items should always be behind content and when you can grind for them as well, doing the content should always be the most optimal way (what you will really only get when implementing this immediately all over the game and not having many other rewards that make the same content interesting for grinders as a place to generally grind stuff).
But I would still go for / prefer the option where a percentage of the items are in fact not tradable and so only available for doing the content.
stop thinking of yourself as a non elite player. You can beat everything they will make. Peoples beef hedges on the idea that they cant do this new content. As long as it doesnt require a whole slew of players (which isnt about challenge btw) you will be able to beat it.
and rightfully so. Based on experience gained from other games, raiding requires out of game tools like teamspeak. Add to that the need for an organised group and you can see how someone who just doesn’t want to use out of game tools or plays solo primarily, might find this new content unbeatable unless it can be lfg’d by pugs and without the use of external tools. Or if this content requires huge chunks of time which some players do not have. Imagine a 3 hour raid.
So the fears people have, are not unfounded. Kind words serve no purpose here.
Let’s just wait until saturday when more will be revealed and then we can have a proper discussion about the whole affair. We don’t know enough just yet. But the fears are not unfounded.
Then why not suggest a VOIP function inside the game or (if needed) better LFG tools, but I really think that part is already covered ingame. Guilds and LFG can have that function. Maybe more space for guilds to put information ingame might also be helpful or an NPC near the entrance that it’s information gets updated based on the GW2 wiki so it can also explain required tactics.
@Ohoni.6057
In many of your comments, if you come with some idea that is supposed to be a solution you always leave out or simply change conditions and metrics (not saying you do this on purpose). Maybe in that way the solution does then work for you but it’s not really helpful.
You made up the 6 months numbers and even after I corrected you on that in the next comment you again use it.
Also the complain about the current reward system has nearly every time been explained with multiple reasons why people dislike it and then you come with a solution that at best fixes one of them. Connection between item and content for example is still lost in your last ‘solution’, just as rewards guiding you from one place to another and so the chase for rewards experience is still gone.
Again, I will not go into the details of that, because it are more sub solutions to work around the current system (because you believe the current model can’t be changed). But when continuing the conversation you might want to take all things into considerations and don’t change the metrics.
Because solution based on different conditions and metrics are not really helpful. Now let’s move back to the question at hand instead of this secondary solution to work around a system. You can simply use a smaller scope (only items that are already and would get into the gameworld itself) while I keep it with the bigger scope (all items).
I agree with Ohoni.6057. We paid for this game so we should get what we want out of it. It would be unfair to lock skins for only elite players to get. All players should get it because we bought this game. Leave him alone. He’s one of few people who understand how MMOs should work.
What I want from the game is a nice chase for items, where items are behind specific content giving meaning to the content, the items and increasing the fun of the chase.
I don’t want items to be locked behind some brainless grind reducing the game-value of the item.
All people who want this did also pay for the game.
On the other hand, more people might in fact try it because of the chase for the rewards.. people that won’t bother with the grind. For example, I have never done a lot of WvW, but the new reward system PvP will get has already got me interested in PvP and I am more willing to give it a try.
Why do people keep insisting on bringing up “It may get people to try it?”
I have covered this soooooooooooo many times already.
Yes, there is a valid role for content rewards to encourage people to try new things, but these rewards should be positioned such that they can be earned within a couple of hours at most, and with minimal skill required. They should be rewards designed to entice players into TRYING the activity, but no more than that. And reward that requires actual time and patience, actually playing the content well after you’ve had time to decide whether you enjoy it or not, should be flexible, and respect that while you may want that reward, you may not enjoy the content, and nobody benefits from you playing content that you definitely know that you do not enjoy.
I may have to make that my signature or something, for how often people ignore it.
If I can get that same reward also from a JP (like in your solution) the game-value for the item is lower and I would not try PvP.
See the difference, so that is why people keep saying this.
Ok, spell it out for me here, in your scenario, where you just complete a dungeon or whatever, and are handed the item for your troubles, which real life human has paid $5-10 cash to make that item available to you? And what incentive did he have to do this?
Content and rewards are then locked behind the expansion. You said something about unlocking a dungeon for money, this is basically the same but bundled together in one box.
Yes, but again, they cannot put out expansions fast enough to make that economical, and the market would not sustain it if they did. The game would death spiral.
\/We have no actual date of when they started creating HoT and likely there is also not one specific date, but it’s fair to assume most of the worked started a little after the Chinese release.
~
So that fits nicely into my 1 – 1,5 year time-spawn.I did already do the calculations that did suggest that when they did put out an expansion once every year to 1,5 year they should generate the same or even more money.
Of course, calculations are no guarantee, but it’s the closes we can get.They have better accountants than you, using better internal numbers, that seem to indicate otherwise. If their numbers agreed with yours, then there wouldn’t be a gem store anymore.
The same accountants that just a few years ago did not believe F2P game would be profitable you mean?
The B2P model is in fact used a lot, but for an MMO a cash-shop model is a low-risk model, while B2P a higher risk-model.
And the monetize people really don’t give a dam about the quality of a product, just about sales. that is why they prefer cash-shop, low risk with still good profits.
if they could produce a worthwhile expansion every six months then we should have seen a lot more than we have over the past three years.
All you need to do is say 1. “I want a cool reward.” I’m going to set the White Feathered Wings backpiece as my target reward. 2. “I want a cool challenge.” I’m going to set my challenge as that I have to do Claw of Jormag, standing right in the center of the lane, and not get hit by any of Jormag’s attacks or effects for the duration of the fight. 3. If you meet the objective you set for yourself, you get the prize you determined, and buy yourself that backpiece.
It’d be the exact same thing as if ANet caused the backpiece to drop as an achievement reward, the only difference is that it requires a small amount of self-discipline.
Luckily I talked about 1/ 1,5 year, not 6 months.
Yeah.. so your solution puts us exactly where the game is now and if I would be fine with that I would not be in this thread would I?
Doing the content I like or not it’s still grinding a currency (seeing a number slowly going up) what is extremely boring (just completing the challenge does not give the required money). In addition, people are after more than 1 item so why your solution would theoretically work when looking at a single item, in reality you would get further and further behind so factually putting most of the items out of reach.
So it’s not the same as when the item would drop.
—
Anyway, we can go on about this part forever and you will likely never agree that they can change the model, while I will stay at point that they can. You think the solution should then not include that part, while I stay at the point where a real solution for the broken reward-system can only come if you take this element (the biggest reason for the problem) into consideration.
So instead of going on about it, I would suggest turning back to the discussion about the reward-system and how (hard) content should be rewarded. With everything I say, that part is part of the scope, for you it’s not. It is as simple as that.
He is already convinced that 95% of the population will not even go near the new challenging content and thus, wants rewards to be tied into easier paths.
Ok, let’s reverse this. Considering this is supposed to be a challenging content, how many people (by percentage) do you expect to finish it at least once? How many people do you expect to run it regularly? How high those percentages should be for you to say that the content is not challenging enough?
The discussion has moved on to more than only the challenging content that will be announced Saturday. It’s now more about how content should be rewarded and the challenge of the content should be rewarded correctly where items might even be locked behind it and not available in any other way.
So there then is not one single answer to your question. Some of the content will be completed by 100% of the people, some by 1% or less. On the other hand, the harder the content, the less there likely is. Maybe we have only 3 things (content) you might consider as hardest content in the game. That then might only be completed by <1% of the players but if they all have one special reward that also means, only those 3 items are out of reach for >99% of the players while by far most items are in reach for most people. This would at least be true for the system where items are locked behind content.
Currently by far most interesting items are out of reach for everybody who is not able / willing to grind all the gold. So in reality, more would become available for more people and it would benefit the game at total (more fun game-play). Win, win. Only some people are so afraid that some items might become out of reach for them, that they suggest an system that while on paper, puts everything in reach for everybody, in reality put most item out of reach for a huge population.
Stats aren’t terribly important in this game, and if given the choice between having, cosmetic skins I wanted locked behind content, or having Ascended gear locked behind content, I would definitely take the skins and leave the stats.
Funny enough, I have the same.. that is exactly why I don’t want skins to be locked behind a pay-wall or behind a boring grind. In a way, doing that with skins, is the same as for some other people is when they put the best stats behind a grind or a pay-wall. And really, this those games are as much about stats as this game is about cosmetics so imho it’s also just as bad for this game.
“so while they may try it, they will only try (and fail) a few times before move on to other content, and will resent whatever features and rewards might be locked behind that content.”
On the other hand, more people might in fact try it because of the chase for the rewards.. people that won’t bother with the grind. For example, I have never done a lot of WvW, but the new reward system PvP will get has already got me interested in PvP and I am more willing to give it a try.
For that system to work, you would need to figure out a way that someone would have to pay real cash money in order to allow that item to exist. So far you have provided no such method.
You clearly don’t understand how the gem exchange works. If you are taking gold and converting it to gems, and then buying a skin directly off the gem store, then you ARE spending money. Indirectly. See, gems are not created out of thin air. Every gem that exists on the gem exchange is only put there after a player has bought gems with cash, and then converted those gems into gold.
Quoting myself:
It does not have to be on the marked, you can simply buy it for gold (after converting it). In the conversion they do take money spend vs spend gold into consideration, but you could keep doing that, counting every rewarded item as spend gold.
Also remember GW2 has the ability to dynamically change difficulty, it now does that based on number of players but could also do that based on the conversion-rate or even change the rewards dynamically based on that.
Also the exchange rate is pretty stable for the last year.
Anyway, too much of the discussion go’s into this hypothetical system we both don’t really want. Basically we (well I) want the items simply in the game rewarded directly for gameplay and nowhere else.
You have to look at the scenario both from the player’s perspective AND from the company’s. Who has to pay, who profits?
To a point. Look, when GW2 launched, it launched with hundreds of skins that players could earn for free, from ingame activities.
I do not believe that B2P boxes alone could sustain the profit margins they need. I do not believe they are capable of pumping out paid expansions fast enough, and I do not believe that the public would support them if they tried.
Content and rewards are then locked behind the expansion. You said something about unlocking a dungeon for money, this is basically the same but bundled together in one box.
I do not believe that B2P boxes alone could sustain the profit margins they need.
I did already do the calculations that did suggest that when they did put out an expansion once every year to 1,5 year they should generate the same or even more money.
Of course, calculations are no guarantee, but it’s the closes we can get.
I do not believe they are capable of pumping out paid expansions fast enough
We have no actual date of when they started creating HoT and likely there is also not one specific date, but it’s fair to assume most of the worked started a little after the Chinese release. The Chinese release was on May 15 2014, so let’s say the work on HoT started June 1 2014. That means most of the work of HoT would have been done in 1,5 year, at most 1 month over, more likely a month or so under. I would also expect the first expansion (one of the most important for an MMO) to be one of the bigger expansions. So that fits nicely into my 1 – 1,5 year time-spawn.
I do not believe that the public would support them if they tried.
They did with GW1, in fact it was one of the big selling points of GW1, it was what made GW1 big and so it is what made GW2 possible. Without that you were not likely to now be here.
So with all respect, you might believe many things and we both can’t say anything for sure because to do so, we would have to be in an alternative universe where this is in fact true. But going on all the facts and numbers we do have your believes seem to be wrong.
Of course, you always have the option of showing some self-discipline and doing this yourself. How? Just set your own rules. If you’re willing to pay $50 every six months or so for an expansion, then be willing to spend $50 every six months on gems.
Then we are back to where it all started, the reward system that is not liked by many.
Yeah I was very willing to have spent €50,- a year for an expansion (or more if they released hard copy CE’s) so theoretically I could have spent well over €100,- on gems for those expansion that we did not have and then use that to buy items I might want. But I don’t get a game to buy fluff in it (and it baffles me tbo that other people in fact seem to do so). I have a game to play it, I want the best looking skins, but I also want meaning with items and I want game-play and a big part of my preferred game-play is chasing reward.
With buying those items I 1 support the removal of my preferred game-play and 2 have no fun in it. It’s nice to then have cool items but that’s it.
Yes, because I’ve been talking about balancing ingame content vs. ingame content
So do I in this example. People can grind for example x hour to get the money needed to buy some item.
So then theoretically (while I think in practice this is near to impossible) you could say, that is equal to difficulty-level y. So that challenging content rewards that item because you can also buy that item for lets say 100 gold what required x hour of brainless grind.
The challenging content and the brainless grind are both ingame content.
May I then remind you that those items are already available in game.. Currently you can get them by doing a lot of very easy content.. You grind gold and buy them.
But you don’t. You grind gold, and you buy them from another player, and HE paid cash money for them. At some point, someone paid cash for it or it would not have entered into the game’s economy. The only way to get some BLTC loot into the game without anyone paying any money is through “key farming,” but this activity can’t account for most of the volume of BTLC items on the market, and if it were cutting seriously into their key profits then you can bet they would just disable the free keys entirely, or push them even higher up the leveling chain until people no longer found the effort worth it.
And that’s my point, if you want those items to drop as loot in some fashion into the game world, then you need to figure out a way that doing so causes some player to have to pay money for that to happen. Like I said, perhaps this could come in the form of having to pay cash to buy “dungeon tickets” and only if you use one of these tickets to run the content could you win a gem store prize for completing it, but personally I would find such a system abominable.
If it makes you feel better, I have been talking from the start about the gold loot from all content being better balanced, so if you feel that the best way to earn gold today is by doing “loot trains” and don’t like that, then running “hardcore content” after this change should make you the same or more money, so it would be an equally viable way to save up gold to buy these items on the TP.
“But you don’t. You grind gold, and you buy them from another player, and HE paid cash money for them. At some point, someone paid cash for it or it would not have entered into the game’s economy.”
This is getting bid weird. You do play the game right? It’s not like you never really played it and now came back for HoT or anything?
It does not have to be on the marked, you can simply buy it for gold (after converting it). In the conversion they do take money spend vs spend gold into consideration, but you could keep doing that, counting every rewarded item as spend gold.
So the premise you base your statement on here is false.
“Like I said, perhaps this could come in the form of having to pay cash to buy “dungeon tickets” and only if you use one of these tickets to run the content could you win a gem store prize for completing it"
In a way, that is what the B2P model is, only you don’t buy the tickets, you buy the expansion that contains the dungeon (including the rewards) and you buy new content on a more regular basis. (instead of cash-shop games where many expansions are free, cheap (when compared to B2P) or / and have big gaps between them, usually releasing a lot of free content in-between.. pretty much what we have seen with GW2 over the last 3 years).
“If it makes you feel better, I have been talking from the start about the gold loot from all content being better balanced”
Let me be clear.. we where just talking about an example here why something would, or would not be possible. Grinding for gold or being able to get all those items in many multiple ways is still not my preferred solution because of the many reasons talked about here by many people. Preferably you would still be locking nearly all and best items behind specific content and have lets say 50% be tradable but 50% not and have most items also be themed around the content that rewards them. Where there could be the option to have different (upgraded) versions of the weapon for different difficulties.
I don’t know how people would feel about this… well, I know how the OP will react, but not sure about everyone else. What if skins had different versions — like Cara and Lumi. The base version could be gained through a variety of means, the enhanced version via specialized content.
I know, I know, it’s a compromise and those sometimes please no one, but maybe some would prefer this.
Well upgrades version with small differences is something I also suggested. I think it’s fair, but some people will still be against it because they still find left out. In the end you can’t please anybody so the question becomes what is best for the game, and obviously both sides think their approach is best for the game.
The side who wants everything available for everybody has had their way for the last 3 years and the game has been successful during the time but at the same time it had big problems really holding players, there have been many complains about the reward-system and there is a lot of grind going on. So maybe it’s now time to try the other approach. I am convinced that is indeed the best solution.
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If you ask me they might remove the daily achievements as it has become to much of a daily task many people feel they must do, something that what not the idea of the daily when GW2 was released.
They where just supposed to make sure people would always be rewarded directly when start playing. Then I would rather see a default increased drop-rate (some thing like magic-find but reward wise more like the dailies) that apply to the first x loot you get. That would then make more sense imho.
But the daily login chest should imho really go. It has really been a thorn in my side. A chest for logging in..? It’s just.. so.. well wrong in so many ways. Symbolic wise at lease.
Look at it from another point.. Let’s say today you win a gold medal for running 100 miles in x seconds. Then 6 months later the reduce the x seconds by 50% and that becomes the new standard for the gold medal. You would feel in a way cheated.. Or they should upgrade your reward to a platinum one (and still having the platinum available if you still complete it in the old x seconds).
That’s an excellent example but since this is a video game and not real life I will give you a new one which works in a similar way.
You are on the top Legendary League in PVP and you get that Legendary back. A few months later you are playing in League 6 because you aren’t a “pro” anymore. If they add a new Legendary back after a few months, it will give reason to identify the “new” best PVP player. Your legendary back isn’t so good anymore, it doesn’t show you are the best of the best because you aren’t anymore. So, go prove you are still the best and win the NEXT reward.
Your reward shows you were the best in the 2015 PVP season, the 2016 PVP season will need a new reward
Only this is incorrect. The items does not ‘show’ you where is best in 2015 as now everybody has access to it. (I am also not in favor of time-limited access to make it as you say).
In the real world that 2015 season reward would only be available in 2015, then each season would have a new exclusive reward (much like the gold medals, they are all gold but they are not the same). However, since this is a video game played by a variety of players and to keep as many as possible happy, the older reward becomes available through easier content. The “best” can continue to prove they are the best by “fighting” to stay at the top for as long as possible. A title or achievement can be used to signify the best of each release, but the skin will be available through easier content as time passes on.
It’s how in other MMORPGs dungeons become easier and easier as the level cap is increased or new gear tiers are introduced, making it easier for players to get their rewards. We won’t have new gear tiers or new level caps in GW2 (which is a very good thing) but we need another “solution” to the problem, time-exclusives is one such solution.
The idea here is to not find a solution that is the best for some group but exclude the other, but find a solution that has merits to all types of players. Is it the best? Probably not the best for anyone, but still better to compromise.
Well it is not my preferred solution. Is still removes the meaning from the item, removes rarity, undermines the effort you put in it.
I know it’s how other MMO’s do it, but it’s also one of the biggest complains about those MMO’s.
Look at it from another point.. Let’s say today you win a gold medal for running 100 miles in x seconds. Then 6 months later the reduce the x seconds by 50% and that becomes the new standard for the gold medal. You would feel in a way cheated.. Or they should upgrade your reward to a platinum one (and still having the platinum available if you still complete it in the old x seconds).
That’s an excellent example but since this is a video game and not real life I will give you a new one which works in a similar way.
You are on the top Legendary League in PVP and you get that Legendary back. A few months later you are playing in League 6 because you aren’t a “pro” anymore. If they add a new Legendary back after a few months, it will give reason to identify the “new” best PVP player. Your legendary back isn’t so good anymore, it doesn’t show you are the best of the best because you aren’t anymore. So, go prove you are still the best and win the NEXT reward.
Your reward shows you were the best in the 2015 PVP season, the 2016 PVP season will need a new reward
Only this is incorrect. The items does not ‘show’ you where is best in 2015 as now everybody has access to it. (I am also not in favor of time-limited access to make it as you say).
Does it include the special dyes? (Like Flame and Frost dyes, Tequatl Rising dyes and so on). In that case I think it’s a good present. If it only contains the normal ones I guess most people with character of 3 years old have most colors by now.
Personally, I only miss two of the normal set.
If it includes the special dyes I don’t think prices will drop to much.. remember many (if not all) of them are not available anymore. Even when you would get a second one on the 4th birthday and so on, it would still not go very fast unlocking all the colors.
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<snip>
A question to everyone that is watching this thread:
What’s your opinion on time-exclusive rewards?For example, challenging group content might reward SKINA, for a limited time, until players beat it, until players reach a certain speed, or simply after a set amount of time (or any other system really), that exclusive stops being exclusive and is added to other types of content. Then, another piece of exclusive reward is added to new content and the cycle continues.
Do you find that satisfying as a hardcore player? Do you find that satisfying as a casual player?
No, in a way it’s similar to the biggest complain you hear about vertical progression MMO’s, and what Anet wanted to prevent resulting in not upping the level.
It would devaluate the previous effort (gear treadmill).
Look at it from another point.. Let’s say today you win a gold medal for running 100 miles in x seconds. Then 6 months later the reduce the x seconds by 50% and that becomes the new standard for the gold medal. You would feel in a way cheated.. Or they should upgrade your reward to a platinum one (and still having the platinum available if you still complete it in the old x seconds).
A system like that would be fine, but then you keep the problem that people want to be able to get the platinum one in an easy way.
I still think the closes solution is having multiple rewards for different difficulties that are basically the same base skin. Complete a JP and get the basic silver skin, complete it within 3 min and get the same skin but with gold details, complete it in under 2 min and unlock some effect for both skins.
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However, it did happen in the previous version of GW, GW2 was announced with a system where this happened, the numbers suggest it is possible and they recently charged €50,- for an expansion.. a price more fitting with that system (so they might very well already be planning the shift).
Perhaps, but given how people complained about that $50 price, I bought they’re banking on doing that again any time soon.
But they did not complain about GW1 campaigns being €50,- You know what.. maybe there is a correlation between a model and what people are willing to pay for an expansion? For one model €50,- is completely acceptable and people will overall be fine with it, for another it’s not. Now that people see GW2 as a cash-shop game, €50,- is unreasonable high for an expansion. If they would see it (again) as a B2P game you would likely see less complains.
But again, if you see it as fairydust you are not required to talk about it, you can leave it out of your part. However I will not leave it out as the problem will not be solved when ignoring this part.
Well, please just discuss it elsewhere, because it’s incompatible with a rational discussion of this game’s reward structures. Try to frame your responses here to things that could happen within GW2.
Well if you want to ‘fix the reward issue’ you better take it into the equation.. because it can’t be fixed without. Or to use your worlds, ignoring it is incompatible with a rational discussion about the reward structure. It’s really silly (and useless) to try and find a solution when you are not willing to take the biggest reason for the problem into consideration.
Because you say so?
Of course not. It’s not a fact because I say so, it’s a fact because it’s a fact.
Only, it isn’t.
Have explained enough times why, even showing numbers.
Again, that might explain the €50,- price. btw, I did never talked about a future with completely no gem-store.. just to have the facts strait.
No, but you have been talking around the idea of them taking items currently on the gem store, or that would end up on the gem store in future updates, and instead making them available as ingame loot drops through various means, which just won’t happen because it would devalue them as gem store items. However you want to redesign the system, it needs to accept that every gem store item that enters the economy, has to have been purchased by someone using cash first.
It’s funny you say it would not be possible because it would devaluate them, while you also keep saying the rewards that could be put in the game should be available from multiple sources and then it has to be balanced to be fair. So easy content required more grind while very hard might reward it directly..
That is what you have been saying.. (While I personally don’t think you get it balanced)
May I then remind you that those items are already available in game.. Currently you can get them by doing a lot of very easy content.. You grind gold and buy them.
If your solution would work, then you could just as well make those items available behind hard content without the grind.. you know, to balance it out and reward the same items with multiple types of content.
Not seeing why it would be no problem for hardcore casuals / grinders to get the items from the game, but it would be if people who prefer challenging content could have access to it.
“But it’s complete fairydust nonsense, it’s not a thing that could actually happen on the Earth we both share.”
However, it did happen in the previous version of GW, GW2 was announced with a system where this happened, the numbers suggest it is possible and they recently charged €50,- for an expansion.. a price more fitting with that system (so they might very well already be planning the shift).
But again, if you see it as fairydust you are not required to talk about it, you can leave it out of your part. However I will not leave it out as the problem will not be solved when ignoring this part.
You don’t have to like that it’s a fact, but it is a fact.
Because you say so? No I already did show it was feasible (that there are alternatives) so it’s not a fact… in fact, it’s a fact that it is feasible. Is it a big thing? Yes it is, not denying that. They really have to understand the problem of it before they even might consider the change, but it is possible and they might very well have already planned the change.. Again, that might explain the €50,- price. btw, I did never talked about a future with completely no gem-store.. just to have the facts strait.
We can discuss how we would like the game to change, but they aren’t going to make changes that cripple their revenue streams, so it’s pointless to do so.
Making challenging content will cripple their revenue streams, cause people will stop playing that kind of content after a few weeks or months (or some people will never play it)
Some people will even left the game after completing it and getting the achievements/rewards attached to it.They will buy HoT, ok, they will win income there, but then they’ll quit. and 0 income from that point.
I disagree but even if you would be right it would not be a huge problem as long as there are enough people there to keep the world alive and if they then release an expansion 1 – 1,5 year later and those people will buy that again. Now let that be part of my solution.
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And again, just as a friendly reminder because I’m getting the impression that it hasn’t sunk in yet, things that they put on the Gem Store are not up for debate, whether you like that fact or not. Anythign people get off the store or chests and put up on the TP are not available as direct activity rewards, under any circumstances. That is not my fault, it is not that way because I like it that way, but I accept it as a cold hard fact, as should you.
The only rewards we can reasonably discuss are the items that ANet puts into the game to find, which would include all the gear the game launched with, the Fractal gear, the Carapace/Lumi armors, the PvP reward armors, etc. You can complain about the gem store stuff till you’re blue in the face, but it won’t accomplish anything unless you can figure out a way for ANet to make the game just as profitable without them that they haven’t already considered and rejected.
We can discuss how we would like the game to change, but they aren’t going to make changes that cripple their revenue streams, so it’s pointless to do so. Restrict the conversation to changes that could actually happen within their game world.
If they are not up to debate for you then don’t debate it. They are a huge part of the problem (if not, the biggest) so they are very much up for debate when talking about the reward system and the grind as we have it now. Also acting as if that could not change is nonsense, but I have already said enough about that in this thread so will not go into that discussion again.
Ignoring the biggest part of the problem, is useless when trying to solve the problem.
Anyway, ignore it as much as you want. I won’t.
I don´t want to trample on your patriotism, I really don´t. But maybe this sounds also familiar to you then:
Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed, to me:
I lift my lamp beside the golden door.”
That´s written on the statue of liberty, which itself was a free gift from France.
And if memory of history serves, it was actually hard for the statue to become a reality. In fact, America almost failed to secure the base needed. So this discussion is perfect for this thread, as the Statue of Liberty can be an analogy for why we need Hard Mode. Nothing great in life comes easy.
We don’t do it because it is easy but because it is hard
-John F. Kennedy
Just had to laugh a bit with you guys politic discussion here.. especially the comment that communism was basically good. Anyway, all jokes to the side. Let’s go back to the topic.
So if you really find it hard to understand why some people want something else then the brainless grind, slowly seeing some currency increase to then buy what you want, then I would suggest you watching that. It might also be interesting for some of the Anet staff. Just to place yourself in the world of those people who can’t stand this type of grind.
I don’t think I’ve heard anyone in this thread that has objected to alternative methods of earning rewards. Well, you have, but that was just so that you could only have the type of reward mechanisms that you like, and nobody else would be allowed to have the ones they like.
Then I think you have missed a part. the main discussion is “locking rewards behind content” vs “making items available in many ways.”.
Btw, personally I don’t mind if 50% of the items that are locked behind specific content can still be sold. So allowing you to earn it in another way.
That would allow for both.. at least for 50% of the items.
And of course I could just as well say “you are only suggesting the reward mechanisms that you like, and nobody else would be allowed to have the ones they like.”. So it’s a little silly. If one person wants A, and another B and they are opposites (completely locking items behind specific content vs not locking items behind content by allowing multiple ways of getting them) then yes.. BOTH are suggesting a system they want and the other does one.
Anyway, I am still fine with half the items being able to be sold.. so at least for half the items that would mean you could still do any content for it (like you want). Or make that possible in other ways then just selling.
So in my case it’s more like: Let’s do 50% of A (lock it behind specific content) and 50% of B (Items are still behind content, but can be obtained in multiple ways) and you say.. No we need 100% of B.
While I must say, I would want 95% of the items to be put behind specific content. But I don’t think anybody here seems to have a problem with that.. the question is more or it should ALSO be available in other ways.
At this moment 95% of the items are not put behind specific content.
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Maybe it’s the most appealing to most of the PvE players left, but imho not to most of the PvE players we will have after HoT gets released. (You know, those who came back after having left because they got bored of the current grind)
I dispute the assertion that these players are large in number of significance. I hear on the reddit for this and other games how “so many people got driven off GW2 by the lack of hardcore content and serious gear progression,” but I’ve seen no evidence that.
I am not specifically talking about ‘hardcore content’. Just the currency grind for items instead of more interesting reward system where content directly rewards you.
I also wonder why you think it appeals to most people. Anet have said themselves they had a huge problem with people leaving the game to soon, that is the main reason for the NPE, while I do not think the NPE is the solution as it was never the problem.
That is a gross misinterpretation of data. It’s like hearing about global warming and blaming it on sweaters. The NPE had absolutely nothing to do with the issues you’re talking about, and did nothing towards “solving” them if ANet actually considered them to be a problem.
That was my point.. They did see people leave and did try to fix that with the NPE.. but imho the main reason for people to leave had nothing to do with skills and hearths being too complicated (you know, the things they change with the NPE patch) but with the reward system (and lack of traditional quest) that makes it a dull experience when you are chasing rewards.
Imho the problem has always been this reward system. You have a game that is all about skins, toys and other fluff then put that behind a boring grind. I think that gets people boring or burned out pretty fast,, That and the fact that the game does have no traditional quest (imho it should have been a mix of events and quests but that another topic) is why people leave to fast.
I still see no evidence that people “leave fast” in significant numbers. It’s just a claim made by people disgruntled with the game, often people for whom the game was never intended, like ex-raiders.
It’s a claim coming from Anet themselves!
Have a read, Colin explaining why they added the NPE, talking about the new system:
- Over a years worth of testing with new players found we were absolutely able to keep them both more engaged, and more likely to return to keep playing Gw2 as a result of the intended system. That is at the end of the day, a win for all of us since all of you need more people to play with! However: if we find in the live environment that isn’t true and we’re not retaining new users better, we’ll absolutely both share that information with you, and continue to iterate to make it better. We keep very real time metrics of player retention for new users, and we’ll know very quickly how effective the work we’ve done is. I want to make it clear: what we used to have absolutely wasn’t good enough for our standards of retaining new users. Before we do some of the other things we want to do with Gw2, we had to fix this, period.
As for grind, the solution is to have a variety of activities, and let people choose which ones they want to pursue. So long as you can fairly choose between many activities, chances are greater that you’ll find at least one that appeals to you. What makes grind bad is when you’re stuck with only one path towards your goal, and it’s not one that you enjoy, so you have to “grind” away at it, whatever that activity might be.
Again, that is what they did try and fail with. You simply suggest replacing the currency gold by another currency, but that will not do much. It just would change the grind from grinding gold to grinding the new currency. There will always be content that then turns out to be the most optimal way to get the reward (it’s extremely hard to balance it) and you still remove the content value of the item.
That are all problems that have been explained before.
It is fair, and this everybody deserves everything is one of the biggest problems with this game.
Funny thing that, since i find the exclusivity and elitism to be one of the biggest problems other games have, and i started playing GW2 specifically to avoid it.
But i guess some people just can’t find fun in a game without denying it to others.
In GW2, many items are still out of reach for many players. It really is only available for the hardcore casuals / those who do the brainless grinding. So I guess you could say that are the elitist of GW2.
Now you could say “But everybody is able to get the rewards”, sure, but that is the same when items are locked behind content.
You people are 2 inches from Communism xD
Correct me if I’m wrong, but aren’t you the one suggesting that everyone else should financially support the high skilled players so that they can get hard mode content and special rewards that they do not pay for?
Lol, yeah just as much as those players are paying for the content the ‘low skilled players’ like and they do not do.
And just as the PvP players pay for the PvE players as well and the other way around.
People who find it hard to understand why some people can’t stand the currency grind for the items they might want (while not holding true value) should maybe have a look at the series Black Mirror season 1 episode 2.
It perfectly displays the brainless grind for some currency to buy some fluff. Not saying people don’t want the fluff, but showing the overall experience is boring and lifeless.
I might want a game (that is then also what I am willing to buy) and have a fun experience, also getting the fluff.. but the grind is not worth the fluff. The people here asking for a more interesting experience to unlock the fluff are basically represented by the main character in that episode.
So if you really find it hard to understand why some people want something else then the brainless grind, slowly seeing some currency increase to then buy what you want, then I would suggest you watching that. It might also be interesting for some of the Anet staff. Just to place yourself in the world of those people who can’t stand this type of grind.
Why are people still arguing?
Everything will be answered this saturday when they reveal challenging content…
I’ll have my popcorn ready when ohoni and his gang start a thread bashing anet for putting in exclusive rewards to the new challenging content
The thread is at this moment really talking about rewarding for content in general, what makes sense, as “hard content” is subjective. There is content in the game some people already find challenging.
So I should not be so sure we get an answer about it Saturday. We might hear what the new challenging group content is. And let’s say that means they add 3 guild-raid dungeons (just as an example) they might even say those hold specific unique rewards. it does then not yet say anything about the reward system overall.. Rewards for all the other content in the game.
It might be part of their other big announcements “We are completely redoing the reward system, putting all rewards in the game, every item will rewarded from its own content”, but there is no guarantee for that whatsoever.
And yes, there will be content you like and dislike. This is entirely subjective. There’s no objective solution as long as you’re going to involve “what players want” or “what they think they want”.
The objective solution is to allow players to choose which content, subjectively, appeals most to them.
That is what they did try, what resulted in the current grindy system (not that only them wanting to allow everybody to get everything is the only reason for that. We already talked how the model was mainly to blame). What many people don’t like.
Also it takes away the value / meaning of the item, again something many people don’t like.
So that are two reasons why it’s a real difference and so you solution is not an objective one. Maybe it’s the most appealing to most of the PvE players left, but imho not to most of the PvE players we will have after HoT gets released. (You know, those who came back after having left because they got bored of the current grind)
I also wonder why you think it appeals to most people. Anet have said themselves they had a huge problem with people leaving the game to soon, that is the main reason for the NPE, while I do not think the NPE is the solution as it was never the problem.
Imho the problem has always been this reward system. You have a game that is all about skins, toys and other fluff then put that behind a boring grind. I think that gets people boring or burned out pretty fast,, That and the fact that the game does have no traditional quest (imho it should have been a mix of events and quests but that another topic) is why people leave to fast.
Then again, in the current approach 90% of the items are behind this same grind (which, I remind you, we do not like), and doing anything else then the most optimal grind does not only feel punishing but will put many items also out of reach because you are getting further and further behind (which, I remind you, you do not like)..
And that’s why a system like the one I discussed is an improvement, because it would mean that you could earn all these items through direct activities if you like, you would never be falling behind, you would only ever be advancing forward at a steady pace.
The token system you mean. No because it would still be the number slowly going up. That just is not the same. Also it would still not reward based on content. Just as now people might do hard content or a brainless grind (doing only the first boss many times) and be rewarded the same, this problem still exists in your solution. I know, you don’t want people to be rewarded different but thats where our opinions differ.
That is why you need to make sure it’s done all over the place with nearly all content a all items. Also there should not only be a difference in difficulty within the content, but also between the content.
Then, when chasing rewards it’s unlikely every item you like happens to be behind content you find easy,, and everything you dislike happens to be behind content you can’t complete. I mean it could happen, but is extremely unlikely.
But the problem is, when rewards you do want are trapped behind content that you don’t like, it forces you to either do that content (which, I remind you, you do not like), or abandon that reward forever (which, I remind you, you do want). Neither of those choices are good.
Then again, in the current approach 90% of the items are behind this same grind (which, I remind you, we do not like), and doing anything else then the most optimal grind does not only feel punishing but will put many items also out of reach because you are getting further and further behind (which, I remind you, you do not like)..
So really, the currency grind approach might put (nearly) all rewards in reach of the hardcore casuals aka grinders. But also puts many rewards out of reach for those who don’t like / can’t stand that grind.
So if you are not a hardcore grinder (like me), in one scenario only those items that are behind content you really cant complete are out of reach, while in the other, most items are out of reach. Guess what I go for.
Teq and TT are grindy because it’s content that gets grinded (especially Teq) for it’s general good loot. That general good loot instead of specific loot, is part of the problem. Many people do that content, so to keep the items unique they have to make a really really low drop-rate and that is why it gets grindy and earning the gold becomes the most viable option again.
First, you can’t get teq weapons for gold. Second, you are basically saying the the system you propose works well only when just a small number of people are doing the content with limited rewards. Yet you are also advocating unique rewards as an incentive so that more people would be doing that content. That doesn’t seem too well thought out, wouldn’t you say?
It is. Just easy math. First of all, I said it does not work with content that already gets grinded heavily.. that is different from saying only a small amount of people should do it.
Now the math. 5 people do 5 different things (the content that rewards the best), in total doing 10 runs (based on amount time they play).. How many times is everything done? (5 * 10) / 5 = 10.
Now you spread out people over more content because they all have specific items.. So now 5 people do 50 different things, in total still doing 10 runs.
(5*10) / 50 = 1.If you look at a Teq fight (which is where we started), your example breaks completely. It’s hardly the “content that rewards the best” – it doesn’t even come close to SW, for example. People do it because they either enjoy to do it, or because they want teq specific drops. And yet it is also a horrible grind. What gives you reason to think that duplicating content like that will turn out differently?
Personally I think that when you put most items behind specific content and don’t make the content very rewarding in other ways, or don’t make a grind culture.
Grinding for items is in no way better (or worse) than grinding for gold. “Grinding culture” as you called it, is created by having to repeat the same content many times before getting the desired reward. This is unlikely to go away, regardless of the difficulty of the content.
It is a huge difference for many people.
Sure. Notice however, that there are people that consider either side to be better than other. In the end, one grind is in no way superior to the other (except, as you said, for personal preferences, that differ among people).
Rewards behind specific content does not have to be repetitive / grind.
Of course not, but the rewards exclusive to the difficult content were proposed as a way to keep the participation levels up in the long run… which means they will need to be based aroud replayability, repetition and grind, or they won’t fulfill their function. And if they won’t fulfill their function, they are not needed in the first place.
When you have enough of that content, and the hardest difficulty, is hard enough, you should be able to keep people busy until new content is added.
that would require churning out only the challenging content, at an absurd rate. No matter how difficult the content, if it is possible to finish it, it will be done by first groups within days, weeks at most. Within a month or two, anyone that will be able to ever pass it, will pass it (excluding new players, of course). The only thing that upping the difficulty will do is to lower the pool of people able to finish it ever.
No developer is able to deal with such a turnout rate – and Anet is not really known for their content-creating speed.
There are multiple reasons why people grind the world-bosses. Acting as if the masses only does it for the direct rewards is just a little strange. But obviously some people do.
Well then put all rewards behind specific content, but make 50% of it also not account-bound. While not making that content interesting to grind for anything else (like with the world-bosses). Then you can brainless grind for it if you like as some will come on the TP but just very expensive.
You are partly right, the very best will be done fast that way, but it’s not true you make it impossible for a bigger group. For a bigger group it will just take longer.
To in fact even keep the people busy that complete it fast I am personally in favor off still having some RNG rewards behind specific content.
Then you should easily keep people busy for 1 to 1,5 year and push out the next expansion.
I may in fact do the challenging content, but i wont be doing it with the reward as an objective. The reward is not enhancing my experience of doing the content. The reward can be in fact reducing my enjoyment. Because while i am doing it, i am thinking this is extremely ineffecient.
Then once again, the reward matters more to you. If you enjoyed the content, why would you feel like it was inefficient doing it?
I see you and phys argue on about this for multiple pages now, so I will put my point about it here.
First or all, it’s not just the one or the other. The one enhances the other. Specific items behind specific content gives more meaning to the item and to the content. So it’s a combination.
You say “you don’t like the content if you just / mainly do it for the reward” but that is false.
My personal starting point in most MMO’s (Not in GW2 because of the current reward system) is chasing fun items / rewards.. I see something I like and that becomes my goal. So it’s item / fluff / reward based. (whatever you name it)
Then I like that experience of chasing the rewards, setting goals, it sends me all over the world, doing many different types of content, some more challenging then other, having story’s going with the rewards.
Maybe some items require a higher level, but (when the game is designed well) there will be many items I can go for first, and simply by chasing them I eventually end up at the right level for the other item I wanted. Or I get skilled enough to complete the content I was unable to complete before.
But in GW2 it does not work that way.. I see an item, check how to get it’s and there is usually no direct approach, so in most cases it simply comes down to getting gold. So no chasing, exploring all over the world.. no just grinding gold. I however am not doing the grind because I do not like that, while I would do that other content (showing that I indeed like that content better, while indeed it’s reward driven).
That is the big difference. And yes, the same content might be in the game, but it is the chase I am looking for, where the content is the challenge in the way to reach my goal.
I always laugh at how many people cry for seriously challenging gaming.
I don’t think people here are asking for GW2 to be turned into a seriously challenging game.
They just want a mix of content (including challenging content) and a rewards system that enhances the content and the rewards, where harder content also gets better rewards instead of everything being locked behind a brainless grind.
if the problem is wanting a certain reward but not having it be behind a certain difficulty then can’t quantity fix the problem. Like you can get all the same stuff doing normal and hard mode, but hard mode you get a higher quantity of rewards for the added effort? everyone can get what they want then and hard mode is rewarding, as it should be.
That is exactly what Anet did try. But it turns out is extremely hard to balance it and in GW2 is results in people doing the easy content twice (while watching a movie on the other screen) instead of the hard content once.
Also it’s still jus a number you slowly see increasing until the moment you have the number you require (the amount of gold / currency you need). Not a very exciting form of progression imho.
2. I do not see that as a fail.. They can try to get better at it, and as long as they don’t the price indeed it out of reach for them. (you know, like with most games.. winning the world champions, means you need to become better or else you will never win that). I think more people will move (have moved) away getting bored by the grind as we have now.
It’s not about whether you see it as a fail or not, they do, and they are the ones deciding whether they are leaving or not.
I think you missed a few announcements. they are implementing such a system for PvP.
Not to mention that everybody is better in some things and worse in others. So your moderately skilled will be able to do multiple things in one or just a few tries. But there will indeed also be content that will then take them longer.
True, but since you’ve locked specific rewards behind specific content, if everything they want is locked behind content they are good at, then they fall into group 1, beating it easily and moving on, while if anything they want is trapped behind content they are terrible at then they fall towards group 2, and burn out. It’s a terrible place to be, the Straight of Messina.
That is why you need to make sure it’s done all over the place with nearly all content a all items. Also there should not only be a difference in difficulty within the content, but also between the content.
Then, when chasing rewards it’s unlikely every item you like happens to be behind content you find easy,, and everything you dislike happens to be behind content you can’t complete. I mean it could happen, but is extremely unlikely.
What is more likely that everybody has stuff lucked behind content he finds easy, content he finds challeging, content that is now just out of reach but he might get with a bid of practice and content that is to hard for him… however when working to get the items that are just out of reach for him, he increases his skill. By the time he is able to get that, some of the rewards he would first define as out of reach might now be accesible with some practice.
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1. Then the content is not challeging enough.
2. I do not see that as a fail.. They can try to get better at it, and as long as they don’t the price indeed it out of reach for them. (you know, like with most games.. winning the world champions, means you need to become better or else you will never win that). I think more people will move (have moved) away getting bored by the grind as we have now.
3 They will need to do it a few times to get better indeed. But in your example where people grind a currency they also need to do things multiple times so why is it suddenly a problem. Not to mention that everybody is better in some things and worse in others. So your moderately skilled will be able to do multiple things in one or just a few tries. But there will indeed also be content that will then take them longer.
Remember the wizards hat example, where you said that would be unbalanced.. but if it was balanced it would be good (that’s basically what you seem to suggest there). well this is a way to balance it. The ‘grind’ is now completely based on the difficulty of the content.
“(and no, “training” doesn’t count)." Why not, because then your reasoning would fall apart? I would thing training, getting a bit further, or closer or faster for sure counts.Anyway, when you seem to dismiss everything and the reasons for it then I am really interesting in your solution? Because I have a feeling, everything you point out here why something we suggest would not work… also exists in your solution.. in fact in exist in all solutions with the exception of one.. giving everything out for free. But that would really result in a dull game.
Yeah, beating the dungeon wasn’t that hard, but it took you 25 minutes. That other group was able to do it in only 15, can you beat that? Maybe, if you keep trying. In the meantime, you’re still getting the rewards for beating the dungeon each time you try.
But the when your goals are rewards (as is the case for many people) you would look what content rewards the currency you need best and start grinding that. That is the reality. What I find interesting is that in my example you say it’s bad for people to do the content multiple times, while here you suggest they do it just for the fun.
Nonetheless, reality has shown us what happed. There is nothing stopping you from increasing your time, but what happens is that people simply will do something else. The leaderboards are a good solution for this and might create some incentive, but when chasing rewards this is still not an interesting option.
But anyways, yeah, the occasional “try it once, beat it, and get a prize” is a fun addition, it’s the desert after dinner, but it can’t be the primary form of content in an MMO, even a game as well funded as WoW cannot keep up that pace.
No, so first I added RNG to fix thig, but then you said that would still be a grind (while completely different). So then I removed the RNG and added the challenge. But then that was not good because it would be too hard for people not willing to improve their skills.
1. Skill is not a term like on or off. What is skilled for you, may be too hard or too easy for me.
2. Bad example. You, me or anybody on this board is unable to beat Usain Bolt and become world running champion, regardless of the time we train, how young or old we are or how hard we try. So if you want to be a world champion, you have to aim for another endeavor or resign yourself to the fact that, while you can take part in the world championship if you really try, requiring of course that you are a trained world class athlete from the beginning, you will never win it. And i am pretty sure that Usain Bolt has not to try to run against for example a 65 year old granddad that jogs in the morning. And the world athletics association surely is not in the weird position of being forced to bundle people like Usain Bolt and the jogging granddad in one bracket at the world championship like Anet is forced to do.
Besides, every athlete at that world championship goes out of them with a consolidation prize, either in sponsoring money from their respective countries or with an advertisment deal if they are lucky and good enough. Even the worst soccer team of a given first class soccer league, be it English, German, Italian or Spanish, gets a boatload of money for showing up alone to play. So ss long as there is no consolidation prize for people that are at least trying to beat the hard content, any outcry for hard to reach prizes is uncalled for in my eyes.
3. Glass wall effect too. At some point, you hit a barrier you can´t breach, despite your best effort.
1. That is exactly what I said as reason why it’s good. What is easy for me is hard for you and the other way around so there will always be things I can get, things that are a bid harder but doable and so on.
2. There might be items unreachable for all of us. While most are not, some likely are. So it fits perfectly.
3. That might indeed happen, then that content really is out of reach for them (see 2) while I think that with PvE content, this is unlikely, their might be some. The trick is for Anet to release the next expansion by the time people are running the glass wall on all the content left.
Teq and TT are grindy because it’s content that gets grinded (especially Teq) for it’s general good loot. That general good loot instead of specific loot, is part of the problem. Many people do that content, so to keep the items unique they have to make a really really low drop-rate and that is why it gets grindy and earning the gold becomes the most viable option again.
First, you can’t get teq weapons for gold. Second, you are basically saying the the system you propose works well only when just a small number of people are doing the content with limited rewards. Yet you are also advocating unique rewards as an incentive so that more people would be doing that content. That doesn’t seem too well thought out, wouldn’t you say?
It is. Just easy math. First of all, I said it does not work with content that already gets grinded heavily.. that is different from saying only a small amount of people should do it.
Now the math. 5 people do 5 different things (the content that rewards the best), in total doing 10 runs (based on amount time they play).. How many times is everything done? (5 * 10) / 5 = 10.
Now you spread out people over more content because they all have specific items.. So now 5 people do 50 different things, in total still doing 10 runs.
(5*10) / 50 = 1.
Personally I think that when you put most items behind specific content and don’t make the content very rewarding in other ways, or don’t make a grind culture.
Grinding for items is in no way better (or worse) than grinding for gold. “Grinding culture” as you called it, is created by having to repeat the same content many times before getting the desired reward. This is unlikely to go away, regardless of the difficulty of the content.
It is a huge difference for many people.
Rewards behind specific content does not have to be repetitive / grind.
Of course not, but the rewards exclusive to the difficult content were proposed as a way to keep the participation levels up in the long run… which means they will need to be based aroud replayability, repetition and grind, or they won’t fulfill their function. And if they won’t fulfill their function, they are not needed in the first place.
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When you have enough of that content, and the hardest difficulty, is hard enough, you should be able to keep people busy until new content is added.
(and no, “B2P box sales alone” and “subscriptions” are both off the table).
Lol, just as “skill improvements as progress” was of the table in the previous post?
So every time something gets in the way of your logic it’s “off the table”.
Also with any solution anybody gives, you say it’s not good because of something.. while that something might just as well be part of your own solution.
Sorry, but when you start talking like that you start to sound like a troll who is not trying to find a solution, or is trying to have a discussion, but who is just trying to dismiss everything.
Now maybe they could put those rewards also behind specific hard content..
But of course the items used here would have to be unique to content, not something also on the gem store. Gem store content will always remain exclusive to the gem store.
Exclusive to the gem-store.. well and available for brainless grinding.. Just not as accessible for people completing challenging content you mean?
Remember that I said you could have 3 rewards depending on the difficulty. Then make second hardest always one of the gem-store items, and do that with all the gem-store items.
Yeah, no, it’d be nice, of course, but it’s not going to happen, just like it’d be nice if tornadoes just stopped happening for no apparent reason. They will not implement rewards that steal money out of their own pocket, that would be lunacy.
Yet they are willing to “steal money out of their own pocket” by making it accessible to brainless grinders.
No, this content fails in all possible ways.
1. It fails to maintain skilled players. They will probably skip the easier modes entirely and complete the hard mode relatively quickly, and then they’re out of the loop. You have failed to maintain their interest for any reasonable amount of time.
2. It fails the highly unskilled. They will never be able to complete the hard mode, meaning the prize is permanently out of reach, which will make them frustrated and enjoy the game less. After several failed attempts, they will give up entirely and if you’re very lucky, move to other things rather than quitting the game entirely. The more often you present them with this experience, the more likely the latter is to be.
3. It also fails the moderately skilled, because they won’t be able to beat hard mode on the first try, but as that’s the mode they want to be doing, they will keep trying, and failing, and face the same frustrations as the unskilled group. Nobody will be satisfied with the sub-hard modes unless they provide meaningful progress towards the harder mode’s rewards (and no, “training” doesn’t count). Now some of those moderately skilled players, even though they could potentially pass hard mode eventually, will just decide it’s not worth the hassle and mode on, just like group 2. Some will stick with it, and perhaps even enjoy pushing that boulder up the hill every day, only to see it roll down over them, but ultimately this is a degenerative gaming experience and should not be encouraged.
1. Then the content is not challeging enough.
2. I do not see that as a fail.. They can try to get better at it, and as long as they don’t the price indeed it out of reach for them. (you know, like with most games.. winning the world champions, means you need to become better or else you will never win that). I think more people will move (have moved) away getting bored by the grind as we have now.
3 They will need to do it a few times to get better indeed. But in your example where people grind a currency they also need to do things multiple times so why is it suddenly a problem. Not to mention that everybody is better in some things and worse in others. So your moderately skilled will be able to do multiple things in one or just a few tries. But there will indeed also be content that will then take them longer.
Remember the wizards hat example, where you said that would be unbalanced.. but if it was balanced it would be good (that’s basically what you seem to suggest there). well this is a way to balance it. The ‘grind’ is now completely based on the difficulty of the content.
“(and no, “training” doesn’t count)." Why not, because then your reasoning would fall apart? I would thing training, getting a bit further, or closer or faster for sure counts.
Anyway, when you seem to dismiss everything and the reasons for it then I am really interesting in your solution? Because I have a feeling, everything you point out here why something we suggest would not work… also exists in your solution.. in fact in exist in all solutions with the exception of one.. giving everything out for free. But that would really result in a dull game.
Yeah, beating the dungeon wasn’t that hard, but it took you 25 minutes. That other group was able to do it in only 15, can you beat that? Maybe, if you keep trying. In the meantime, you’re still getting the rewards for beating the dungeon each time you try.
But the when your goals are rewards (as is the case for many people) you would look what content rewards the currency you need best and start grinding that. That is the reality. What I find interesting is that in my example you say it’s bad for people to do the content multiple times, while here you suggest they do it just for the fun.
Nonetheless, reality has shown us what happed. There is nothing stopping you from increasing your time, but what happens is that people simply will do something else. The leaderboards are a good solution for this and might create some incentive, but when chasing rewards this is still not an interesting option.
But anyways, yeah, the occasional “try it once, beat it, and get a prize” is a fun addition, it’s the desert after dinner, but it can’t be the primary form of content in an MMO, even a game as well funded as WoW cannot keep up that pace.
No, so first I added RNG to fix thig, but then you said that would still be a grind (while completely different). So then I removed the RNG and added the challenge. But then that was not good because it would be too hard for people not willing to improve their skills.
I would suggest using this topic: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/DirectX-11-12-request-merged/page/12#post5389925
The improvements really depend on the game and the bottlebecks. According to the devs the improvements performance wise are not big in GW2 while there are still other reasons why oucould do that.
It does not have to be true that that would have to rebuild the complete thing. They might have an layer between the Api and the rest of their code, so adding a new layer (to support another version) might be what they would need to do. In fact, that layer already exist at least parly. GW2 was announced as having DX11 and in the Beta there was even an option to select it (not sure if it was enabled) but eventually it never came in.
Back then I remember the reason for this was because they wanted to support as many machines as possible. These days you don’t really need DX9 for that, even wine is now getting DX 11 support http://www.pcworld.com/article/2940470/hey-gamers-directx-11-is-coming-to-linux-thanks-to-codeweavers-and-wine.html not to mention that support DX 11 or DX 12 means you can’t support DX9 as well.
A big advantange I see for DX11 and especially DX12 is the support for VR. If you want to build in deticated VR support, you would almost have to switch to DX11 or preferably DX12.