Guild Wars 2

It’s what they monetize and to get people to keep going for them the next one has to get even more attention as the last one… read, be more flashy.

Suziana.3759:

To each their own. I personally like flash, and stay away from the boring stuff that look like starting gear and weapons. I play this game for the fantasy, not real life simulation.

When looking at an item I also like flashy, then again, when looking at a bunch of people who all have flashy stuff running around, you don’t really see anything specific just one big light-show. I think this is Blue is mostly talking about.

maddoctor.2738:

Devata.6589:

So to get this to work many items should get implemented ingame. And so while I would love to see a better reward system (it’s something I talked about in this forum for multiple years) I am not sure we wil still be likely to see it happeng now. It should have happened years ago. Still yes, I like the idea with the reservations I made in my comment.

Well they’ve added many new reward systems to the game over the years and apparently PoF is adding a new one too, unidentified items. It’s highly unlikely that older content will be updated to use newer reward methods, there is hope for newer content and especially expansion content, to use a much better system.

Although their latest idea of unidentified gear doesn’t seem to be very well liked. We’ll see about it

It depends how they implement unidentified items. If it’s simply a system to allow more items in one slot that you then can open / identify when you like without any additional tools it might not be a big issue. While the game already has too many items you need to open to get the rewards.

If it’s another cheap way to try and make money it might be a huge problem (again, depending on the implementation). A similar system where the developer tried to make (indirectly) money with such a system basically killed that game.. Talking about Archeage. This video explains it a little: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WyLdfaUTJP8

I did get into that game on release as well, but that system with unidentified items made me turn away very soon again. While it was a really good game for the rest, but a bad reward system kills any MMO.

I think it’s a much better system then gold driven system we have now, but I do have a few reservations.

It should work like this for a reasonably small chuck (and one type) of content with a limited number of rewards.. Exactly like SAB is but also likes dungeons and so on. I notice you mention a zone here, personally I don’t think this is very good to use on a complete zone because then it basically becomes the same as gold, only now for a specific zone.

Also if the interesting rewards that drop in one type / chunk of content are very low (like how the Molten Facility dungeon back in the day had two drops people wanted, the mini and the backback) I still think simply RNG would still be the best or if needed smart RNG so that when you are past a specific number of tries (the number Anet had in mind) the probability for it to drop increases until It becomes a guaranteed drop.
Another thing to take into consideration is that a good reward system also means you have to be able to get them ingame. Currently many items are available in boxes or the gem-store. Going after these still requires buying with cash (what is not playing) or grinding gold what is not a fun mechanic for many people.

So to get this to work many items should get implemented ingame. And so while I would love to see a better reward system (it’s something I talked about in this forum for multiple years) I am not sure we wil still be likely to see it happeng now. It should have happened years ago. Still yes, I like the idea with the reservations I made in my comment.

maddoctor.2738:

I’m not sure that’s what will happen because you need to also account for the regular dungeon drops/rewards or those won’t exist anymore? Or the “good” items will be so expensive that will dwarf the regular dungeon rewards?

They might still exist but basically set the base value for the gold. Gold and trash rewards are factors that are important to see how easy or hard it is to get gold. So you could say they set the value of 1 gold.

Preferably the gold you earn this way would be similar to the cost you make in game on things like buying items from NPC’s and teleporting and so on.

Also when designed well, an easy dungeon like CoF should also reward less of these trash-items and direct gold then a much harder dungeon like Arah. Else it is not balanced well.

In addition yes the price of the items would normally dwarf the regular dungeon rewards.

maddoctor.2738:

Balancing reward/effort between types of content is not as easy, even if you say it will balance itself. To me it looks like a dream rather than something that can happen in reality, players will always find a way to maximize their profits for the least possible effort.

Well we are mixing two type of rewards now. The regular dungeon drops/rewards and the items people are really after. When taking the regular dungeon drops/rewards out of the equation those normal items will indeed balance themselves out.

“players will always find a way to maximize their profits for the least possible effort.” And that is exactly why they balance themselves out. Basically this is capitalism. You see, as soon as there becomes an item more valuable people will likely maximize their profits by getting that item, but because they do that item gets less rare and so the value decreases again making it not a more profitable item anymore.

The regular dungeon drops/rewards the developer (Anet) will have to balance. You are right, that is not easy.. at the same time it is. Getting this right from the start is extremely hard. However they can monitor a lot of thing (like, how many ‘gold’ do people make every day in every dungeon) and balance it by changing some things and keep monitoring that. Then it is not so hard anymore.

maddoctor.2738:

I’m not exactly convinced that the same problem won’t appear with your system. Let’s say that the dungeons of the game got 2 to 3 unique items that only dropped with rng and not available with tokens. What would prevent everyone from farming CoF P1 (or any other because it’s faster then use the gold they earn to buy the Arah rewards?

That has to do with supply and demand (rarity).

If CoF is faster the items will automatically get a lower price (even if it is only because multiple people did try this and so more of those items end up on the TP).
At the same time, if Arah is harder and so less people do it those rewards become rarer and so more expensive.

What you would then normally see is that it balances out. So let’s say doing one Arah run is just as hard / or takes as much time as 5 CoF runs, then the price you would earn with 5 CoF runs is similar to the price you earn with 1 Arah run.

And then there is the price (tax) you pay when selling items and buying items.

So while you indeed have the option to do CoF, it will not be the faster way.

maddoctor.2738:

Combine tokens and RNG then this is no longer a problem. You can get your rewards by rng OR you can use the tokens to get that very specific item you want. The best of both worlds, you get the thrill of “will it drop” every time you kill the boss, however you don’t know which reward you get, you might get a sword but you want a hammer, you might want the mini of boss A but get the mini of boss B. Repeatedly. There is nothing more annoying than having a bunch of item rewards with low chances and you keep getting the same one over and over. Having both tokens and rng as rewards fixes the problems of only rng, and fixes the problems of having only tokens.

Yeah that would work, while the ‘smart’ RNG would also solve the problem. Well depends, if one type of content has many rewards people will be after this (Like SAB had) this might be the better solution.
But with less rewards the ‘smart’ RNG might be the better solution. Also the rush will be lower when you have the tokens anyway.

Then again, putting many good rewards in one type of content is a usually a bad thing imho because you end up with many people getting items they do not want and so flooding the TP and so you create the grind for gold and buy what you want ecosystem again.

maddoctor.2738:

Shirlias.8104:

I mean, the way someone could get an item does not really bother me.
I am more interested in having an extra choice, in order to achieve something.

The problem is how to balance the different acquisition methods.
If an item has a currency value, a sell price, then it must maintain a certain level or rarity to keep that value. This makes items that can be traded (expensive ones) have much lower drop chances, in order to maintain their rarity. If a ghostly infusion had a 20% chance to drop then it wouldn’t be as expensive. The Chak Egg Sac is stupidly expensive because it has a very low chance of dropping, weapon precursors are expensive because their chance of dropping is low.

On the other hand, account bound items do not need such a low chance because they have no currency value. They do not affect the economy directly.

See a system that could work:
Let’s say that they add two versions of the same item in a new Fractal CM.
One version drops with high chances but it is account bound.
The other version has much lower chances but it’s not bound and you can sell it.

Both types of players are happy now. How possible is such a system though

One thing, the developer might still want an item to be pretty rare in the world, even if it is account bound. It might not want everybody to run around with it. That is also something you have to take into consideration and might mean even a account-bound item might also have a very low drop-rate.

And the system you talk about we did have in SAB.

If you don’t remember see: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Super_weapon_skins

Acquisition:
- Masterwork version (account bound): Moto in Rata Sum [This one you buy with tokens]
- Rare version: chance to obtain from the Super Adventure Box zone completion chest. [This one you could earn in the game and is not account bound]
Both the same skins.

maddoctor.2738:

When you want something and the players tell you “just buy it from the TP” it’s what I dislike and what makes content not rewarding to me anymore. And that’s what happens if the drop chance is too low. Why bother with a 0.1% chance when you can go grind something more profitable and then buy what you want? That kills content in my opinion, it doesn’t make it better.

That is exactly how I look it as well and why I would like to see it different from how it works now. Because this is how it works now.

The fact that you can simply can go grind something more profitable however is not always true. If all content / rewards where implemented like this the rarity is also important for the price. So there would not be a cheap way to get it. In the current approach there is because people will grind content (to buy items, they can’t get in-game) and so prices will drop.

Anyway, I am also not against account-bound like I said before.

maddoctor.2738:

You said I want to lower the rarity of items but I do not want that. Having low chances to drop is one way of making something rare but it’s not the only way.
Putting it behind harder content is another because the fewer players that can finish the content, the more rare the item. Adding a weekly or a daily lock is another, by limiting how many times someone can roll for the reward, then can make the rolls more favorable, because excessive farming won’t be a thing anymore.

With your token explanation you did yes. Now you suddenly talk about other ways to make it more rare. Yes I agree there are multiple ways to achieve that, but that was not what we talked about before. You gave an example of a token, system and I explained that with that example basically what you wanted was a lower rarity.

maddoctor.2738:

Putting them as rewards for collections/achievements is another, requiring the player to do multiple types of content all over the game to get what they want.

That is also why I said in an earlier post that this would be one of the ways I would add in rewards if it was up to me.

maddoctor.2738:

There is more than one way to ensure the rarity of items. I want items to be rare, but I don’t want them to be a chore to get.

And with the token system you talked about it would just be as much a chore as with rng because it would both be based on the same rarity and number of runs.

maddoctor.2738:

But you just changed the subject. I was talking about how things are implemented in GW2 now against how I would want them (for tradable items!)

And I’m expressing my dislike over tradable items in general. If the entire thing is only about tradebale items and how to acquire those and not about rewards in general then my mistake.

My commented you replied to was mostly about how to acquire items (by grinding gold and buying vs directly from the game). Not about tradable vs not tradable.

maddoctor.2738:

You could also solve that in the RNG. Like every kill after x number of kill’s the probability of it dropping increases until it eventually becomes a guaranteed drop. No need for tokens to solve that.

Aren’t tokens doing exactly that? With probably less development work needed.

Yes and no. With such an RNG solution there is just a safety build in that you will not never get it, but other than that it’s still RNG. Every time you do a run it can drop so you keep having the rush of ‘will it drop?’ You might be unlucky with this reward and it takes you longer then normally or you might be lucky and get this reward sooner.

With the token system you simply know I need to do x more runs and then get the item. So you are looking at that number slowly increasing. There is no rush, to me that feels way more like a boring grind. Let’s be honest, at some point you know the content and it’s purely reward-driven. So the rush comes from the possible reward, but there is no ‘possible’ rewards, there just is this number slowly going up with eventually the reward ad a given number of runs.

About the development-time. The token-system would require more work. What I say for the most part is simply a formula, put in a method that can be reused. The token system would require at least a new design for all the tokens every time.

Anyway, for the most part we are on the same side I think. You just seem to have an idea about the token system that imho is incorrect. But other than that we mostly agree on this subject.

maddoctor.2738:

Devata.6589:

So people are grinding.

And with your system they won’t grind? The system you described is very similar to the system in Guild Wars 1. Grind til your fingers bleed a specific dungeon to get that skin you want or grind elsewhere and buy that skin. There is still grind, and too much grind in some cases.
~

While in addition to these type of drops I would also want to see more ensured rewards, like quest rewards. But yes, instead of a number of mega currency-grinds, it would be divided in many smaller farms (grinding is usually referred to when doing repeated content for some currency, being it XP, levels, tokens or gold while farming is usually referred to repeating content for item-drops you want). And that would in my opinion have burned out less people, or get less people bored.

“There is still grind, and too much grind in some cases.” It does not make more grind (in fact, usually it’s less because with the conversion to gold you also lose gold) but in the worst case scenario it’s the same amount while divided in many smaller ones.

“Grind til your fingers bleed” If your fingers are bleeding then, they for sure are bleeding now. Again, you try to make as if that is more ‘grind’ but in reality it the same or less and devided in smaller parts.

“Adding unique/specific rewards to content is fine. Giving them currency value is not, and the main reason is because if that happens there has to be an insane RNG behind those items.”
And this is simply factual false. That is exactly what I tried to explain before. You are thinking with a GW2 mindset where some content gets grinded for gold, because gold is so important here (for a big part because of the gem conversion). The number of times you would now have to do content to get the gold to buy item x would then be the same number (or likely lower!) of times you would then have to do content y to get item x.

“What’s the difference between the two? Minis and Skins are account bound, ghostly infusions can be sold, and in order to keep their gold value they must be rare, which means their chance of dropping is abysmal compared to the other Raid-specific drops.” Sure those items need to have a lower drop-rate then account-bound items. But you just changed the subject. I was talking about how things are implemented in GW2 now against how I would want them (for tradable items!). You are talking about account-bound items vs not account bound item. I am personally also not against adding those items. I am in favor of also have those ingame. But then you get many GW2 players complaining they are forced to do specific content.

“The tokens help you get a specific item you want, because there are LOTS of potential drops, the tokens also help players with bad luck to get what they want.” But getting the items you want easier basically means you want to lower the rarity, and bad luck overall does not exist. Yes one time they might take longer, but the next time they will get it faster.

“After running that Dungeon 1 for the 1000 time without getting the reward you want, would you feel happy? " If the drop rate for the item you want is 2000 and so it’s likely that even after 1000 runs you still don’t have the item you want, then it means you would need also like 2000 tokens (one token per run) to get the reward you want and so after 1000 runs you will also still not have the reward you want. You see, what you really want is to lower the rarity instead of a token system.

But to answer your question.. If the drop-rate is 1/2000 and after 1000 runs I would still not have it, no I would not be happy but at least I know that it could drop the very next run. Now with the token system I knew for a fact I had to do it another 2000 times (or whatever the number of tokens are). Yes, then I would prefer the none-token system.
Be aware, these numbers are mathematically not correct, but they works as an indication. What you are really looking for is at how many runs the probability exceeds 50% (what is not at half the number of runs). To be exact, with a drop-rate of 1/2000, the numbers of tokens would likely be something about 1385 as you would need on everage 1385 runs for the item to drop.

You have a point that if you add in many good tradable items in one type of content that RNG would start to become really bad (maybe that is what you are getting at). But what you then are really doing is creating grind content. Content people will do to get good rewards, including the ones they don’t want. So that is something you should not do in the first place. The number of these rewards should always be very limited. 2 or 3 at most from one type of content. And that should also be similar with all the content in the game. So no content can become the best to grind. (While even that would be of a temporary nature, because as soon as it does, prices of those items drop and so it’s not worth grinding anymore).

“Having both tokens AND rng is the best way (account bound always).” Not something I am against. While again you really ask to lower the rarity. Now if it all comes down to this “bad luck” idea. Because while nonsense, people might have that idea. You could also solve that in the RNG. Like every kill after x number of kill’s the probability of it dropping increases until it eventually becomes a guaranteed drop. No need for tokens to solve that.

“Although it gives a way for those who don’t like the content, to get the rewards from that content (by farming something else and then buying it) it DOES make everything worse for everyone who actually likes the content.” For this you don’t have to be in discussion with me. I have always been a favor of content specific rewards and have no problem with (many) of those being account-bound. But you will find many people here against that.

Linken.6345:

You do know that the weapon boxes Im talking about are account bound so no matter how much gold I collect Í cant buy them so what is the point of your post again?

Yeah, but I never talked about items having to be account bound. Your example did have such items but that is not the scenario I talked about.

Don’t get me wrong, I think account-bound items have their place, but this might not be the correct place.

What you commented on was also about tradable items, while your example was not.

However, what you might seem to forget is that Arenanet still does this with a reason. They want some items to be very unique, have a specific rarity.

For MMO’s many developers want to have some really rare items.
What you seem to want is the following token system, so that let’s say you need on average to kill Teq 100 times to get one skin, now instead of a skin you would have the tokens to buy the skin you want. But that would make the skins less unique, because people will sooner have the skin they want (and use) so you start seeing the skins much more in the world. This is exactly what a developer is likely trying to prevent by using the system they have. They could turn it into a token-system, but when holding on the the rarity it would likely not make you much more happy.

Here comes your probability (math) into play. So let’s say that every item will have a drop-rate of 1/100. There are 10 items and there are no returning items (when you get an item, it’s always one you did not have yet). So on average you need +- 1000 kills to get all the items. The probability you get the correct item (based on the assumption that people are usually interested in one of 10 the items), every time you get an item is 1 in 10. So 1 item in +-100 kills and 1/10 will be the item you want.

So for sake of argument let’s say that based on these numbers on average you would need 500 kills to get the item you want (mathematically this is not 100% correct,). That means that to keep the same rarity that the developer wants, instead of letting you buy the items for 100 tokens they have to up the price to 500 tokens [based on one token per kill].

Or translated back to your Teq example, you might have to kill Teq another 1000 times to have the tokens to buy the skin you want. But by that time you were just as likely to have had it drop as well. That stays the same. The token system only helps you to be ‘sure’ you get it by then while a drop-rate has to do with probability. Some people feel they are always unlucky and so the token system would be better but that is not how it (the world) works. What is more likely is that one time you are out of luck and need double the number of kills then the average to get the item you want, while the next time you get it on the first kill.

Really, what (you) people are really asking for in your example is not so much a token system but is to lower the rarity.

Vayne.8563:

I don’t believe your way is more fun. All you can say is that it would be more fun for you. I personally prefer a token system.

Edit: Farming gold allows me to play in a lot of places, not just one place to get a specific item that I might never get.

I know you believe so. And we never know for sure if with the other system would have been better able at retaining people.

Then again, for all non-accountbound items you would still have your grind for gold option if you prefer that. So that does not change.

Also this approach would not trequire you to only play in one place, it requires you to play in one specific place for one specific item. That is a difference. It means that when you go after rewards you will llikely do all the content. Instead of only the things that are the best to grind for gold.

It’s also a more ‘life of the land’ mentality vs a work for cash and buy mentality.
Thing is, in the current approach, the people who prefer the ‘life of the land’ will get bored and leave (well, left). While in the other approach they don’t while people who want do to other content to earn gold to then buy what they want can still do so.
So logically more people would be happy (don’t get bored) with that approach.

It’s the best of both worlds.

maddoctor.2738:

Devata.6589:

And lastly have a boss drop a specific item with RNG. The Decorative Molten Jetpack was a great example of this when it still dropped in the Molten Facility dungeon (With the only big problem, that is was temporary). This should be the most desirable item.
How rare / hard to get this is, can still be controlled by the developers based on the drop-rate.

If they make it a drop of a specific boss then what will happen is players running that boss 100 times per day in order to get it and then making the item practically worthless since players will now be deleting it. To keep it valuable in that case the drop rate needs to be abysmal low, to counter the “Law of the big numbers”. That’s how some of the very expensive skins worked in Guild Wars 1, creating entire meta compositions of farmers doing very specific dungeons for the very specific rewards at their end. Personally I didn’t like that approach because it meant “normal players”, those who do not farm the dungeon many times each day, had a very low chance of getting those skins.

What you probably fail to see, is that a token system works better because you cannot abuse it by over-farming those tokens. You can only get a very specific amount of tokens each day and if you repeat the content you get none. This means the developer can better pace the rewards and make assumptions on how many days it will take a player to get the reward. For example, this is how the Raid boss reward chests work, you can only loot their big end chest once per week, and BECAUSE it’s on a weekly lock it has much better rewards than other reward chests. If Tequatl was on a weekly lock then you’d have 100x times better chance of getting anything from it.

It’s not only the drop rate that can make things rare. It’s also the difficulty as well as weekly/daily locks on rewards.

This approach over the token approach means that instead of looking at some number slowly going up and exactly knowing how many more runs you have to do to get the item, now every time you kill the boss there is the rush of ‘will it drop this time?’.

You may like this but I, and I’m sure many others do too, dislike the “will it drop this time” approach with a burning passion. It doesn’t make content better, it makes it boring, players get sick of it and when they do get that reward they are after, they never visit that content again in their lifetime.

“If they make it a drop of a specific boss then what will happen is players running that boss 100 times per day in order to get it and then making the item practically worthless since players will now be deleting it.” This is only true because of how GW2 works now. If almost all items were implemented like this, this would not be true.
Let me try to brake this down for you.. Forget all about how GW2 works. Let’s say we have a new game. We have a dungeon-game, it does also have a TP, but that is about it. This dungeon game has 10000 dungeons. Every dungeon has 3 bosses with each one specific drop. They also drop some currency (not a lot) and other rewards. But the cool items everybody wants are those 3 per dungeon.
Now person x wants multiple rewards but has his focus on a reward that drops from dungeon 1. He could do dungeon 2, get the reward, sell it and then maybe buy the reward from dungeon 1. More likely is he does dungeon 1 (first) because selling the item will also mean he lose some money, but anyway, he has the freedom to go for the different approaches.
Now let’s say it turns out that the item from dungeon 3 is the most popular, so a bunch of grinders decide to go and grind dungeon 3. Of course this would not really work, because within no time the price of the item on the TP will start dropping, not making it an interesting place to grind anymore. And what are they grinding for in the first place? To buy another item. So they can just as well just do the dungeon with the reward they wanted in the first place.
The drop-rate would not change much about this, it would simply make an item more or less rare. More rare could mean it would cost more on the TP but starting to grind for it would still financially not be interesting because as soon people started grinding the price would drop leaving them better off simply doing the content that rewards the item they want.

Now back to GW2. Yes, there is a grind culture here. Many items you can only get buy spending gold or cash. So people are grinding. Putting in one new dungeon with one new reward would possibly create the effect you said because everybody will go grind that dungeon (depends, if there is only one rewards, other content might still be more interesting to grind so the people will not come to grind it), and the TP will be saturated within no-time or the drop-rate has to be extremely low to prevent that from happening.

It’s all about how you design the reward-system.

And yes, things like allowing it to only be done once a day can help as well. That does not mea you need to have a token system.

Faaris.8013:

Maybe you are the one that doesn’t understand reward systems in MMO games, but you think your experience and expertise in that field is greater than that of the people in charge at ArenaNet (and of people with common sense)

Can you even picture a situation where that backpack skin and other S1 rewards drop from Molten Boss fractal (after all, it’s the molten boss jetpack)? Everybody would have it within 2 days. People farm that fractal, it’s played thousands of times per day. It would turn all these items into trash. Soon people would start asking for them to be removed (or at least stack to 250) because deleting jetpacks and other items from the inventory takes time. They would be like Mini Professor Mew!

Being able to buy the items with gold is the maximum freedom you can give people. Even gems, since you can buy gems with gold. If you make the skin (example) a rare drop from Molten Boss, how is that not require players to grind? Molten Boss gives so much gold, you could just buy the skin from the TP after a while, maybe even before you get the drop. Personally, I find having the freedom to get gold in a way that suits me, better than having to grind a specific fractal. Somehow you seem to believe that the thousand ways of getting currency in a game is more grinding than doing a fractal over and over to get a drop.

I think Anet has different goals with the rewards, and yes I believe the reward system the way I describe it is way superior from a ‘fun’ perspective (but Anet has a monetize goal for rewards, not a fun goal). Btw, the funny thing is that this specific item was initially implemented in the way as I prefer it. If only that dungeon was not temporary.

The fact that they are in charge at Anet does not mean they know better. Many games did fail with ‘experts in charge’. And Anet has always had a hard time retaining players with the same ‘experts in charge’. The same ‘experts in charge’ made many decisions they later had to come back on, decisions many players where negative about from day one. So being in change does not mean you make the right decision. So this whole “they are the experts so they know better” argument is empty and proven wrong many many times.

“Can you even picture a situation where that backpack skin and other S1 rewards drop from Molten Boss fractal (after all, it’s the molten boss jetpack)? Everybody would have it within 2 days.” The original dungeon it dropped from was farmed many times for more than two days and not everybody had it. This is all about drop-rate. And again this has to do with how the game works by now. There are some types on content people grind a lot (while this changes from time to time). If most rewards would be implemented in such way, grinding content would be less of a thing. So flooding the market with one item would also be less of a problem. However if you would want to go for a specific item you could still buy it from the TP (for a price) or go do the content and farm that specific content until you got it. There are examples of such implementations in other MMO’s without the TP being flooded with them (aka everybody having one within 2 days).
Now if a lot of content would have rewards like this and new people come in the game they might see it at somebody, ask where it comes from and so they mind up doing that dungeon. Then they see another item and they go do so other content that rewards that thing, then they see another items…. Now however it’s most likely that for all the items, the approach is grind gold. Then you can wonder how long it takes for those people to leave the game again being burned out.
“Being able to buy the items with gold is the maximum freedom you can give people. Even gems, since you can buy gems with gold.” Yeah, and it makes the game a big boring grind. But I guess that is great.

“If you make the skin (example) a rare drop from Molten Boss, how is that not require players to grind? Molten Boss gives so much gold, you could just buy the skin from the TP after a while, maybe even before you get the drop.”
This has to do with how you balance the game. Again, if you mainly work with these types of rewards and put them all over the world. Then farming the boss for it will be the fastest way. But that is not how the game is designed. You are working from a mindset based on how things work now in GW2. But they work this way because of how it is designed.
“Personally, I find having the freedom to get gold in a way that suits me, better than having to grind a specific fractal.” That is the nice thing about the other approach. For the not account bound items, you still have the ability to grind. Because some will still end up on the TP. The big difference is that at the same time you also have a more direct approach to go for them.

“Somehow you seem to believe that the thousand ways of getting currency in a game is more grinding than doing a fractal over and over to get a drop.” There are only an x number of optimal ways to get it. And again, you still would have the option to grind gold if you would really like that. Also it’s not always doing that fractal over and over again. It’s doing that fractal over and over again for that one specific item! After that there is another content to do. It are many optional micro farms / grinds vs a few required mega grinds to get the items you want.

The again. The people who hate the grind have likely all left by now. So it does not really matter anymore.

What is mostly left are the people who don’t mind to grind, who don’t mind to just buy instead of play or who don’t care for rewards in the first place. Obviously that is a smaller player base was also means lower income as we have seen over the years. What is especially interesting when taking into consideration that the current approach was likely mostly done from a monetization standpoint. And that did work great… for the short term.

Linken.6345:

Devata.6589:

Vayne.8563:

ElectricGoat.8253:

How do I get more of those boxes? I used the first one up and got a sprocket out of it. I want more sprockets.

I’m guessing the only way is through the gem store?

Only way to get sprocket is the gem store, but many of the individual items are on the TP right now as well.

You see Vayne, this is another example of why I have a problem with this system. ElectricGoat wants an item, and if those items where available in game he could now be doing dungeons, fractals and so on… the content that did reward that type of items he is after.

And when he was after the next items, there would be other dungeons or content rewarding it that he would go after.

But instead the only approach he has is grinding gold (what tends to burn people out) or buy it. MMO’s are for a big part reward driven games, if you then sell those items or put them behind a boring currency-grind that is negative.

Anyway, I just notice your reaction on this great example, and because we talked about this so many times I wanted to point this example out to you.

Yea but I belive alot of players want to have token system like the gears.
Just see how many threads there have been about egg sacks, invisble shoes, teqatil weapons etc.

Doing teq for example 250 times and getting 3 of the 16/19 if they have under water skins is just not fun in the long run.

Still saving up my Teq tail fragments and hope they will put in a trader for boxes.

Token system is still grinding a currency. Not that I think tokens are bad by definition, but should not be there to get the more desirable items. They should be more of the thing you get on the side so you also get some ensured progression when doing content multiple times.

So this is how I would implement it, with a dungeon as example. Have a dungeon-armor-set (like in GW2) that you can earn with tokens. But this should not be some very special looking set many people want to have for sure. It should be a ‘nice to have’. This ensures you have some reward progression while doing a dungeon multiple times.
Also put in a specific reward for completing the dungeon. So everybody who completes that dungeon gets that reward.

In addition you can add in some achievement-rewards as well. The Twilight Arbor Aetherpath is a perfect example of this one. That has a list of achievements that will unlock a mini.

And lastly have a boss drop a specific item with RNG. The Decorative Molten Jetpack was a great example of this when it still dropped in the Molten Facility dungeon (With the only big problem, that is was temporary). This should be the most desirable item.
How rare / hard to get this is, can still be controlled by the developers based on the drop-rate. For example 1/50 or 1/100 or 1/500 or 1/1000. You get the point. This approach over the token approach means that instead of looking at some number slowly going up and exactly knowing how many more runs you have to do to get the item, now every time you kill the boss there is the rush of ‘will it drop this time?’. Many people have got a negative idea with RNG loot, but that has mostly to do with the implementation of it. Some people believe in bad luck and while obviously you can have bad luck, when it has a drop-rate of 1/100 it’s very unlikely you have to do it 250 times before you get it.

You come with the Teq example what does use a drop-rate for specific items. The big issue here is that GW2 has already a system where people grind currency to get items. World-bosses like Teq are one of those things people grind. Now when they put in specific drops from that content (and make it not account-bound) the drop-rate has to be extremely low to prevent the TP from flooding with those items. Because even with extreme low drop-rates, simply the fact that so many people keep doing this specific content so many times, the items will still drop many times overall. Law of the big numbers. However, it also means that you as individual person have almost no possibility of getting such items in a reasonable way from the content itself. You are better of grinding gold (by doing Teq.. see the visual circle here?) to then sell the items you don’t want and other people do, to then buy the item you like and others don’t.

Vayne.8563:

Devata.6589:

Vayne.8563:

ElectricGoat.8253:

How do I get more of those boxes? I used the first one up and got a sprocket out of it. I want more sprockets.

I’m guessing the only way is through the gem store?

Only way to get sprocket is the gem store, but many of the individual items are on the TP right now as well.

You see Vayne, this is another example of why I have a problem with this system. ElectricGoat wants an item, and if those items where available in game he could now be doing dungeons, fractals and so on… the content that did reward that type of items he is after.

And when he was after the next items, there would be other dungeons or content rewarding it that he would go after.

But instead the only approach he has is grinding gold (what tends to burn people out) or buy it. MMO’s are for a big part reward driven games, if you then sell those items or put them behind a boring currency-grind that is negative.

Anyway, I just notice your reaction on this great example, and because we talked about this so many times I wanted to point this example out to you.

Ah but you see, the items weren’t really supposed to be back at all. The content attached to those items is no longer here. There are indeed plenty of items to go for in game, which you seem to ignore.

Furthermore, anyone can farm gold in game, by doing fractals and dungeons and content, and then use the gold to buy gems. So yes, you can play the game to get them. I’ve heard your argument before again and again. I didn’t agree with it then and I don’t agree with it now, for the same reason I’ve never agreed with it.

You have zero proof the company could support itself your way

“Ah but you see, the items weren’t really supposed to be back at all.” That is a different subject.

“The content attached to those items is no longer here.” Those dungeons that dropped them are fractals now.

“There are indeed plenty of items to go for in game, which you seem to ignore.” I never ignored any items, I gave many of those examples in the past. But for the bulk this is not true, and that is where the problem is / was.

“Furthermore, anyone can farm gold in game, by doing fractals and dungeons and content, and then use the gold to buy gems.” Yes, the grind approach. That this is how it works for the bulk was exactly what I did see as the problem as you should remember.

I did point this one out because it was a good example of what we talked about so many times.

“You have zero proof the company could support itself your way.” You always have zero proof about alternative realities. We did do some calculations based on the information we had that did give a positive view. But you also dismissed those because you could never know how it would have gone else and available information is always limited. True. But with that mindset you cannot talk about any suggestions. Because we will never know for sure how they will work out.

We do of course know that the approach GW2 did take, was able to keep it running until now (positive), but also did see player base and income shrinking more and more (negative). It did not manage to keep up with the potential it had (based on the hype and sales on initial release).

We also know that the Living World approach (Anet’s approach) with seasons was not able to keep people playing as much as expansions (approach many players including my promoted) would. Seeing how expansion have been much better at getting people playing then seasons did.

So maybe another approach (on multiple aspects) would have been much worse, or much better. Not that it still matters.

I hope the next expansion will sell good, but imho HoT was the expansion ArenaNet had to get right for a come-back. Now the ship has sailed.

So I’m not here to try and convince you or ArenaNet that they should still go for the other approach, I did that years ago when the ship was still sailing. Now I just wanted to point this good example to you, that’s all.

Shirlias.8104:

The rule of supply and demand.

And also, if it were possible to obtain through the game, i think the price would have been almost the same…

…or worse!
He could have done specific things:

-From tokens farm to time gating tasks.
-From random drops to Achievements/Boss kills ).
-From Mystic Forge RNG to Seasonal Content ( Oh i missed halloween… well, i only have to wait till next year! ).

Having the opportunity to buy it from the TP should be a Must for everything.
Maybe you won’t buy it from there, but you still had the choice.

I wanted HOPE as a legendary item.
Great i have plenty of golds… Checkin TP… oh… nothing? Oh Darn, i have to play and have no possibility to go through the TP.

I really wanted it so i did it at last, but it sucked that i had to play with no alternatives.

I made many golds through Winter’s JP.
Many people would have done Chest Farm Instead.
Others PVP/WvW.
And so on.

I understand that the choice here is unfair, due to the RNG drop of the Tokens, but this case apart it is really good to have the TP selling Everything.

I personally think that grinding gold to get everything (the way it works for most items ingame, and what you seem to prefer) is exactly what has burned out many people.

In this case it should have been as a drop from the boss kill (the way the implemented it initially). While at the same time you should be able to select the dungeon / fractal instead of it being a random one.

If it would not be account-bound you would still have the option to grind gold and buy it from the TP, but you could also go do that dungeon to get it. Or if it was account bound (what was not the case with this item) you would indeed be required to do the dungeon but for another items you wanted you would be doing other content. In that way you are playing all the elements of the game instead of grinding your brain out with the 5 best available grind available.

In this case it was not an account-bound item and not supper rare (so rare, that not everybody is supposed to be able to get it) so even if it was a specific drop people could go get it in the dungeon / fractal and you could still grind and buy it.

By now grinders might be in the majority (those who like to go for the items directly have left by now), but overall the grind approach is not a good one.

From a monetizing perspective I get it, while as expected also that eventually did not work out, with this approach you give people incentive to spend money on gold or boxes, but for that you do need to have enough people left to buy them in the first place.

Vayne.8563:

ElectricGoat.8253:

How do I get more of those boxes? I used the first one up and got a sprocket out of it. I want more sprockets.

I’m guessing the only way is through the gem store?

Only way to get sprocket is the gem store, but many of the individual items are on the TP right now as well.

You see Vayne, this is another example of why I have a problem with this system. ElectricGoat wants an item, and if those items where available in game he could now be doing dungeons, fractals and so on… the content that did reward that type of items he is after.

And when he was after the next items, there would be other dungeons or content rewarding it that he would go after.

But instead the only approach he has is grinding gold (what tends to burn people out) or buy it. MMO’s are for a big part reward driven games, if you then sell those items or put them behind a boring currency-grind that is negative.

Anyway, I just notice your reaction on this great example, and because we talked about this so many times I wanted to point this example out to you.

That they did bring this back is imo a good thing. In fact, from the day they removed that dungeon I said they should bring that dungeon back including the rewards. Eventually we did get the dungeon back, but without the rewards.

The bigger problem is that now it finally is back, they did not put it in the dungeon but in some RNG boxes? The dungeon is still there (in fractals) put it in there and suddenly you have people interested in fractals again who were not interested in it for a long time.

Somehow they never seem to understand how to get a good reward system. Most implementations of rewards (like these RNG-boxes) result in people grinding gold to buy the items what results in a boring experience. It was, is and likely will stay one of the biggest issues with GW2.

So your problem with the commander thing is, that he is not commander enough?
Funny thing is that I totally agree and at the same time totally disagree with you. I disliked that they turned you into some hero from the beginning. I mean, we all know everybody is doing this, it’s an MMO, you even do parts together. So it makes it extremely fake. Let me just be an explorer, at least that makes sense. We are all explorers.

So if you want to be the boss, well then I disagree with you. If you want more freedom I agree with you.

You see, when you are an explorer you would normally do the more traditional quest in an MMO. This however also means that you can pick what quest to do and what not to do, for the most part.

In GW2 it’s more like a single-player game inside an MMO that makes it all feel a little fake. “You, great great commander! I worship you so much[none literal quote] Can’t take that seriously especially not when I know everybody in this game is doing the same. It’s so over the top that it’s almost denigrating.

Then again, in ArenaNet’s defense. In the past many players complained they were not important enough in the story. Looks like they need some NPC to tell them how great they are for more self-esteem or something, idk? So Anet listened to them and now we are all awesome, or something. But of course with a fixed story there is no way they can realty let you be the boss, then you would have to write the story yourself.

Draknar.5748:

I think people got a little bit too used to the WoW way of playing MMOs where you open up your questlog, mark the quest, blindly follow wherever it tells you to go, kill whatever is highlighted, then return to wherever the arrow is telling you to go, all the while skipping every bit of dialog and text as quickly as possible.

That’s not how GW2 is meant to be played.

It’s more open than that. You can level up doing literally anything in this game. Just take your time and wander around exploring areas and you’ll progress without issue.

I do think it is a wrong representation of things. Even in games with quests there is a lot of exploration going on, and you might still wonder off. In fact, if I see how many people play those games vs GW2 there might even be more exploration going on, while that has also to do with map design.

Yes, quests can help you move in a specific way and so help guide in your exploration, but people still can wonder off. They might see a village in the distance and go see what is going on there, there they see quests they pick up and those quests help them to learn about that village. They might do some quests while leave other quest for what they are. Some quest might them to a next area, others don’t. Only some main quests really guides you in a predefined direction, but that also exists in GW2 with the PS / seasons.

When I see how many people play GW2 it is looking on the mini map, running to all the PoI’s and Hearths and if an event pops up they will do that. There is less wondering off because the maps are smaller (that will now change) and you can’t see other maps because they are instanced. So it’s less likely to see a village in the distance (or new area) you want to explore. And even if there is, there likely is some PoI that people then run up to, unlock and move on. Instead of exploring the area and learning about it. In fact usually there is not much to learn about it like how quests learn players about an area and the NPC’s.

The best way to get some of the ‘local lore’ is by doing events and staying for the next event. But not every area has events and not every event triggers another event. So people usually also don’t stick around for an event to pop up or wait after an event to see if a new event pops up.

The way Anet hides JP’s is a great way to get people to explore, but might not be enough incentive overall.

Overall I cannot say quest-based MMO are less wandering around and exploring then GW2 is.

I think this game might has more hand-holding and pointing you in the ‘right’ direction as many other mmo’s.

However it’s introduced in a different way. When you start playing your screen is filled with pop-ups explaining a lot of stuff. In a map there is always a person (scout) near the portal that shows you the map and what there is to do. When an event is happening it also shows up in your UI.

So basically more UI.

In many other MMO’s it’s different, you only have quests and quests have quest-levels. That is almost all the guidance you get from a UI perspective. However, doing the quest will also teach you many of the things you are asking about. Usually when you are a high-enough level you get a quest sending you to a new area (while it’s of course your free choice to go there, or go to another area for the same level).

In GW2 you open the map, and notice you’re over the level of a map and go to the next area. Or you see crafting-stations on the UI and then at the crafting-station the UI will give you more information about crafting.

Personally I have always missed quest here, while mainly for other reasons like more story about the world and the NPC (something that interest me more, then the overall story) and a more interesting way to reward players and so on. However I guess quests is also what would solve your problem.

That said, I don’t think Anet will every implement it. From day one they have struggled with the absence of traditional quest. First hearts did not exist, but they add that as an extra level of guidance because events where not enough. That is also why you don’t see them in the original higher level areas as they figured that once people played enough, events would be enough, but then they found out that even experience people still ‘need’ them so they added them later in new higher level areas. They added collections as a way to replace the reward-system the events could not provide in and quest would normally do. But it’s clear that overall they don’t dear to add quests, afraid to be too much like a regular MMO I guess.

Danikat.8537:

I like the idea of a horse model for the raptor just because it’d be the complete opposite of how most games do it. Usually the horse is the starter mount (and usually a plain, brown horse with other colours available later) and something like a raptor would be the super-special “end game” reward/cash shop mount. So I think it’d be funny to get a raptor for free and then have to earn or buy a horse.

But I think you’re right that in general they should stick to the existing models for the mounts and just release different kinds of raptor, bunny etc. But maybe they could do a few variants where it makes sense – for example I’d love to see a griffon skin for the bunny, they already have an animation where they launch themselves upwards so it’d work and be a nice alternative.

Maybe that could be a compromise – different kinds of raptor, bunny, manta ray etc. sold in the gem store and then new models like horses, griffons etc. as in-game rewards.

(I keep wanting to add ‘as long as they don’t make them random rare drops from bosses or something’ and then reminding myself that it’s highly unlikely Anet would do that and at worst it’d cost lots of tokens only obtained in one area. Annoying but still better than being the people on my other MMOs forum talking about how they’re so sick of doing the same dungeon over and over, never knowing if they’ll ever get the drop they want, but as soon as they do they’re never, ever going back there again because the repetition has made them hate what used to be one of their favourite parts of the game.)

“Maybe that could be a compromise – different kinds of raptor, bunny, manta ray etc. sold in the gem store and then new models like horses, griffons etc.”

No need for a compromise, they have the expansion now to generate income (while time between expansion need to shorten a little more). Keeping people busy like this ensures people keep playing and so increases sales on expansion.
Also they can keep selling glider skins.

Leo G.4501:

I wouldn’t mind there being easier versions of precursor crafting for mount skins. Basically you do certain activities and gain certain items to craft a special item that is used at a specific location that summons a monster (in an instanced location) that you then defeat and then tame as a mount.

But like I said in the other thread, I personally am not a fan of having, for instance, a horse as a raptor mount skin. Any such options I’d prefer to stick to their original motif (so a variant raptor skin may be a feathered raptor or an armored raptor or a multi-color raptor with more dye channels).

I guess how different skins should look is another discussion. I was more talking about how to get them.

Danikat.8537:

We’re already getting a version of this.

Anet have said the mounts themselves will be obtained in-game, presumably through the story. Then each one has a mastery track to give it new abilities. And mastery track means you’ll need to gain mastery points to activate each tier.

The only difference is it’s not tied to specific content. You don’t have to go and beat a specific champion to enable your raptor to jump further (or whatever), you can get the mastery points from any of the content which offers it. Which allows people to ‘customise’ the process. If you hate raiding/don’t have time/whatever you can still unlock the same mount abilities raiders can, by doing something different like adventures or story achievements or whatever.

True, but this is about abilities for a mount. And let’s hope they will make these abilities unlocks also in a better way than they did with the gliders (I never completed all maps of HoT simply because I did not have the required glider abilities to get to those places, and just leveling those abilities was not that fun).

However I am talking about visual looks. Different type of raptors, or there can be a kangaroo skin to replace the springer.

I did see how you have to unlock the raptor, what was not that interesting (you need it in a story-part and then just jump on it, complete that story-part and you have it). But they can do much more with this, like I said in me OP.

Lyndina.7984:

You can bet there will be skins for mounts,in the ingameshop for diamonds. Its the same as with the gliderskins.

That is a likely scenario, but that would mean buying or grinding what is both not fun, does not add any true new content and might also burn people out.

It’s not what this game needs but what this game has already too much of.

They can keep selling the gliders if they like. Then they add mount skins in a good way to the game.

I agree, and have no doubt that more skins will follow. For me the bigger question is how they are introduced. Like the glider skins, so buying and basically without story or any additional content, or can you craft them, catch them in wild, earn them in a dungeon (even one of the old existing ones), can a mob drop himself as mount, can you even breed them?

I just made another topic about this.

By adding it like that you do not only add many more skins but it also comes with content that can keep people busy until the next expansion. It’s a more efficient and for some more fun way to keep people busy then additional stories (like the seasons) are.

Mounts are finally introduced and they come with fun mechanics. That said, there can be more content build around mounts that keeps people busy.

It is already possible to color mounts so that is good, but it would be even better to let people catch special mounts (skins), or craft them or even breed them or have them as a reward for completing a dungeon or as a rare drop from a mob (what then will be the mount).

That sort of contents tents to keep people playing for a much longer time. With the gliders most new skins where added to the shop, but that does not add any new content to play.
Last NCSoft (Q2 2017) result showed another drop, and while that is not the worse (between expansions income can be lower) it is important to keep people busy to stick around to buy the new expansion. Something where I think HoT failed. These sorts of things well help a lot keeping people busy.

Only doing this for mounts is not enough but it is a good start, and a good moment with the introduction of mounts. Then they can keep selling new glider skins. The mount hunts will keep people playing and then some of those players might buy the new kite skins.

Not having these sorts of collection activities (what is very different form the ‘collections’ GW2 has now) means people will get bored much faster after completing the story or even running around a little and having seen most of the new stuff.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Devata.6589:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Provide an example of an MMO where the developer uses the reward system you propose, with items dropping from various mobs and with reasonable drop rates and which does so in the open world.

Most known example would be WoW, but it’s in many mmo’s implementd like that.
In that game, collecting items (skins, or mini’s) was mostly done by quests, crafting or these type of drops.

There where some items that you where best of buying but also items you could also just get by going for a specific mob. There is a db where you can find drop-rates online and so see this approach very clear.
For example :
This item: ‘Schematic: Parachute Cloak’ drops from many places and so with very low droprates (0,0 (rounded) to 0,13% droprate depending on the mob) so you are better of just buying it. See: http://www.wowhead.com/item=10606/schematic-parachute-cloak

But there is also the mini Ice Chip that only drops from 3 mobs and so has a much higher droprate. (4 to 7%) source: http://www.wowhead.com/item=142088/stormforged-rune
That is inside a dungeon, I never said it should not be.

For you a true open world example (because you asked):
Azure Crane Chick
Drops from one type of mob (it’s an egg spawn not a true mob) in one area in the open world. Has a droprate of about 3%.
source: http://www.wowhead.com/item=104157/azure-crane-chick

Last example:
Spawn of G’nathus

Drops from one type of mob that has 3 spawns. Droprate is 92%
Source: http://www.wowhead.com/item=94595/spawn-of-gnathus

Hope this example makes it clear for you.

So, for some items the system works as you say. What I find ironic is that most of the examples of people (myself and others) not getting items they wanted despite many attempts come from WoW.

That is probably because the developer has some items it wants to be truly rare in the game. But that is a design choice that is separated from the system for distributing rewards. GW2 could also put items in the game that are so hard to get that only a few people in Tyria will be able to get it.

I think on release GW2 did have a few of those items, Infinite Light comes to mind. Since then many of the required resources have become better available (or less demanded) making those items better available. And they did not put any of such new items in.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Provide an example of an MMO where the developer uses the reward system you propose, with items dropping from various mobs and with reasonable drop rates and which does so in the open world.

Most known example would be WoW, but it’s in many mmo’s implementd like that.
In that game, collecting items (skins, or mini’s) was mostly done by quests, crafting or these type of drops.

There where some items that you where best of buying but also items you could also just get by going for a specific mob. There is a db where you can find drop-rates online and so see this approach very clear.
For example :
This item: ‘Schematic: Parachute Cloak’ drops from many places and so with very low droprates (0,0 (rounded) to 0,13% droprate depending on the mob) so you are better of just buying it. See: http://www.wowhead.com/item=10606/schematic-parachute-cloak

But there is also the mini Ice Chip that only drops from 3 mobs and so has a much higher droprate. (4 to 7%) source: http://www.wowhead.com/item=142088/stormforged-rune
That is inside a dungeon, I never said it should not be.

For you a true open world example (because you asked):
Azure Crane Chick
Drops from one type of mob (it’s an egg spawn not a true mob) in one area in the open world. Has a droprate of about 3%.
source: http://www.wowhead.com/item=104157/azure-crane-chick

Last example:
Spawn of G’nathus

Drops from one type of mob that has 3 spawns. Droprate is 92%
Source: http://www.wowhead.com/item=94595/spawn-of-gnathus

Hope this example makes it clear for you.

Ashen.2907:

Devata.6589:

Ashen.2907:

Weird, I distinctly remember farming for years in gw1, for items linked to specific areas or mobs, and not getting the drop. Hundreds of hours, no luck.

Funny bit of trivia, “almost impossible,” means, “not impossible.”

Then it dropped in a to big area (so to many mobs dropping it) or from an mob that people farmed or ArenaNet wanted the item to be so extremely exclusive meaning buying it with gold would also be also close to impossible.

Obviously a developer can make the drop-rate as low as they want, making it close to impossible to get it. But when making the currency vs direct drop-rate comparison you can argue with me as much as you want, you are really arguing with math.

So, in other words, even in a game without a cash shop focus or currency related item acquisition, items can be “almost impossible to get,” even if farmed for directly. And your claim to tbe contrary was inaccurate.

No, what you do is changing the context or the conditions to try and make your point. Like I said, yes obviously a developer can make items having such a low-drop that the probability of anybody getting it is close to none. That is so common sense I should not have to explain that. But that is beside the point.

What I however was doing was comparing two systems, but obiously within the same context or with the same conditions. So the current (currency) system where item X has a price of Y (what is based on things like supply and demand) and the system where it’s less based on currency but items drop from specific places. Still however having the same supply and demand obviously. Else you can’t compair it.

In your example you change the supply (drop-rate) to proof that it’s still possible to get an item to be almost impossible to get.

What I wonder, do you really don’t get it or do you just not want to get it?

Let me give one example just in case you really don’t get it.
Anet wishes an item to have a specific rarity (let’s name that rarity Z). They have the item X drop from 100 mobs and give it a drop-rate of 1/10000 to get rarity Z. Farming directly for this item would already be a real pain (not impossible but a huge pain). And if Anet does that with many items, randomly farming to get currency (by getting items you are not interested in to sell and buy the ones you do want) would likely be the best option. Understand that Z is a huge factor for the price Y.

Now same condition, so Z still needs to be Z but the system where it drops from 1 mob instead of 100. Now the drop-rate can be 1/100 to still keep Z. So you get from a system where directly going from the item is a huge pain to a system where directly farming is a very doable option within the same conditions Z.

Going back to what you do, changing Z so much that it is almost impossible to get it even if drops from just one mob (lets say 1 mob droprate 1/100000000). Great you proven that is possible, however with these new conditions it is also close to impossible to get the item with the currency approach because the amount of Z would be to expensive for almost anybody… and that is if it even is available on the TP.

phys.7689:

yall are getting distracted by great drops versus crappy drops.

regardless of what drops, there is too much item/inventory management you literally have to spend like 15-30 minutes cleaning up full bags.

open all these containers
salvage all this
consume all luck
keep all that
npc all that
tp all that
put this in bank

Its a big hassle

That is completely true and one of the reasons I don’t really play even when I log in. My bags are full and I still have a list of chest in the right lower corner flashing to be opened. Starting to play would mean I first had to start cleaning my bags.

However, this was not always the case. What imo happened is that from an early point on people complained about loot. However instead on really addressing the true issue behind the ‘lackluster loot’ they ‘fixed’ it by adding in more loot and loot bags and daily reward chest and so on. So people get flooded with loot. Of course that did not fix the issue and only created a new one, the one you talk about here.

Also needing 1000 of x mats to create 1 item while you can only stack 250 of the same mats is an issue. That should never have been designed this way. However instead of fixing that they decided to sell the ability to expand that number.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Devata.6589:

“Your approach is not going to work in GW2. If a rare and valuable item were to be available from a specific mob, with much better drop rates, players would farm the heck out of the mob. Since a lot of players are going to get kill credit, the drop rate would still need to be much lower than on other games in which a limited number of players (often just one, at most a party of X) gets a chance at the drop.”

This is exactly why it only works if you implement it everywhere. Not just in a few places. Also something I mentioned many times before. Indeed, when there is one ‘good’ item that drops from one mob this will happen and the value of that item will then drop making the currency approach the best again.

Now imagine this being implemented for almost all items all over the game. People can then still try to farm a mob, but what for? The item they want to buy with the cash is also available in a similar way and the amount of farming for the item they do not want (to then sell it to get money to buy the item they do want) will be more than the needed farming for the item they do want (because the lost you make on a sale).

Would people still decide to farm one mob for an item, then that items devaluates so farming it become not useful anymore. Farming (together) would not be efficient anymore. It changes the complete behavior. The behavior people now use in GW2 would not be efficient anymore and so people would be less likely to do it. Overall resulting in a better loot-system. Just look at the first two pages of the forum how many post there are currently about people complaining about loot.

This is why from the beginning of the game I talked about this and why I always think the cash-shop approach is bad (because it results in the current approach). The big question is, how big the impact is. In my opinion it’s huge because this is the sort of things that get people bored overtime, and no matter how great the rest of the game is, if people get bored they leave.

An “everywhere” approach is no less likely to fail. Some items are going to see greater demand than others based on community “consensus” on what’s hot and what’s not. Also, developers do not add in new stuff everywhere at once, they add a few pieces at a time. New items will be tend to be in greater demand. So, yes, people will farm one mob, or a few mobs rather than your idealized vision of people spreading out all over the various maps.

“Some items are going to see greater demand than others based on community “consensus” on what’s hot and what’s not." Yes, but that does not change anything. It’s completely unrelated.
If more people want it the price can go up, if more people would farm it the price would go down.

That is supply and demand determines the price. This holds true for all items in the game. This does not change anything about how grinding would be the best way to get anything.

If getting all the items would work in this same way it still holds true that grinding some currency would not become the best way to get everything.

Let’s say there are two items in the game with a drop-rate of 1/5 (just as an example). More people want item 1, so the price on the TP does go up (High demand). How would grinding currency (so farming item 2, to sell it, to then buy item 1) become the most efficient way? Now you might need to get item 2 twice (so on average do that content 10 times) to have the money to get item 1. However, you could also get item 1 by doing that content 5 times. So the direct approach is the best.

However in that case getting item 2 would be more efficient by going for item 1 (do the content 5 times, get the item, sell it buy item 2 and still have some gold extra. So grinding currency). Because of that some people will go for that approach. This however means Item 1 gets better available on the TP, decreasing the price again. And that is how the economy will keep itself stable and the direct approach will mostly be the most efficient (because of sell fees).

Adding in items one by one does also not change anything (as long as everything that is in, already is implemented like this) because you get the same result. One new item gets added so everybody wants it. This means it becomes expensive so the direct approach is best. Then people start farming (to sell) it because it’s good value but because of that within no-time the TP is flooded enough for the price to be dropped so farming it loses its usefulness and within no-time the item is on a stable price-level again.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Devata.6589:

You might be like ‘Well I never got precursor x to drop but I was ably to earn the money to buy it so this proofs the extreme low drop-rates.’ However then you forget an essential element of what I said. Having it drop from specific places. When every mob can drop item x, to keep item y exclusive the droprate has to be extremeley low, yes so low that it is likely that you never get it. But if only 1 mob or one group of mobs drops it, the drop-rate can be much higher while keeping the same level of exclusivity, and then the comparising to currency does go up and never getting it is statistically close to impossible.

Your approach is not going to work in GW2. If a rare and valuable item were to be available from a specific mob, with much better drop rates, players would farm the heck out of the mob. Since a lot of players are going to get kill credit, the drop rate would still need to be much lower than on other games in which a limited number of players (often just one, at most a party of X) gets a chance at the drop.

In addition, items dropping from specific mobs are going to generate farm groups, who will jealously protect their perceived “right” to kill the same mob over, and over and over. It’s happened every time a new specific area farm came to the fore in GW2. Every time, ANet had to step in and nerf the farm because people were chat-fighting over it.

For the record, I’ve never gotten a precursor drop. However, I wasn’t talking about this game when I said I could cite several examples of never getting an item that dropped from a specific source. Those examples would all be from other MMO’s which use the system you’ve put on a pedestal.

“Your approach is not going to work in GW2. If a rare and valuable item were to be available from a specific mob, with much better drop rates, players would farm the heck out of the mob. Since a lot of players are going to get kill credit, the drop rate would still need to be much lower than on other games in which a limited number of players (often just one, at most a party of X) gets a chance at the drop.”

This is exactly why it only works if you implement it everywhere. Not just in a few places. Also something I mentioned many times before. Indeed, when there is one ‘good’ item that drops from one mob this will happen and the value of that item will then drop making the currency approach the best again.

Now imagine this being implemented for almost all items all over the game. People can then still try to farm a mob, but what for? The item they want to buy with the cash is also available in a similar way and the amount of farming for the item they do not want (to then sell it to get money to buy the item they do want) will be more than the needed farming for the item they do want (because the lost you make on a sale).

Would people still decide to farm one mob for an item, then that items devaluates so farming it become not useful anymore. Farming (together) would not be efficient anymore. It changes the complete behavior. The behavior people now use in GW2 would not be efficient anymore and so people would be less likely to do it. Overall resulting in a better loot-system. Just look at the first two pages of the forum how many post there are currently about people complaining about loot.

This is why from the beginning of the game I talked about this and why I always think the cash-shop approach is bad (because it results in the current approach). The big question is, how big the impact is. In my opinion it’s huge because this is the sort of things that get people bored overtime, and no matter how great the rest of the game is, if people get bored they leave.

Ashen.2907:

Weird, I distinctly remember farming for years in gw1, for items linked to specific areas or mobs, and not getting the drop. Hundreds of hours, no luck.

Funny bit of trivia, “almost impossible,” means, “not impossible.”

Then it dropped in a to big area (so to many mobs dropping it) or from an mob that people farmed or ArenaNet wanted the item to be so extremely exclusive meaning buying it with gold would also be also close to impossible.

Obviously a developer can make the drop-rate as low as they want, making it close to impossible to get it. But when making the currency vs direct drop-rate comparison you can argue with me as much as you want, you are really arguing with math.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Devata.6589:

The thing is, you can’t appreciate the good without the bad.

Tell that to the myriads who post about miserable drop rates. Sure, developers can fiddle with drop rates, but they usually don’t. That’s why there are a lot of people who prefer a sure thing over time. Sure, there are a lot who prefer serendipity, but the grass is always greener…

“In addition, there is the very real chance you’ll never get the item.” The strange thing is, is that I do here this argument a lot in this discussion while it’s completely unreasenable. I guess it’s based more on feeling than on fact. You see, this is statistically almost impossible.

Impossible? I don’t think that word means what you think it means. I could cite several items in MMO’s that NEVER dropped for me. Your argument is based on moderate chance RNG, and that is not what developers use in every case. At one point, ANet was using random drops of Ascended items as the promised alternative to crafting. At a point when champion bags was a major source of such drops, the drop rate was far below 1 in 100, by a factor of 100. Maybe you have played games where RNG is friendly, but other than Torchlight or SPRPG’s, I haven’t.

See italics.

“Tell that to the myriads who post about miserable drop rates.” I am not trying to convince them. But I do think that when people complain about drop rates, many mainly have a problem with the reward-system itself. Simply increasing drop rates devaluates items and so everything will stay the same.

“I don’t think that word means what you think it means. I could cite several items in MMO’s that NEVER dropped for me. Your argument is based on moderate chance RNG” Somtimes a developer would want to have an item extremly rare and so make the drop-rate extremely low. However if they made that availible in a currency-way it would be so pricy that it would be very likely that you would also never get the currency for that item. Nothing changes in that way.

For the items that are not supposed to be in this extreem exclusive realm, so that you are able to get it in a reasenable way, what I said holds true.

You might be like ‘Well I never got precursor x to drop but I was ably to earn the money to buy it so this proofs the extreme low drop-rates.’ However then you forget an essential element of what I said. Having it drop from specific places. When every mob can drop item x, to keep item y exclusive the droprate has to be extremeley low, yes so low that it is likely that you never get it. But if only 1 mob or one group of mobs drops it, the drop-rate can be much higher while keeping the same level of exclusivity, and then the comparising to currency does go up and never getting it is statistically close to impossible.

IndigoSundown.5419:

• The downsides of this type of reward system include the sense of disappointment that inevitably results each time you get a chance at the drop and don’t actually get it. The longer this goes on, the more likely it is that relief that it’s over may accompany, or even overshadow the gratification of desire fulfilled. In addition, there is the very real chance you’ll never get the item. Even if you do get it, there’s no guarantee as to when that will happen. You might get it first time out, or you may end up repeating the content a lot more than you might with an incremental system (like GW2 dungeon tokens).

“The downsides of this type of reward system include the sense of disappointment that inevitably results each time you get a chance at the drop and don’t actually get it.”

The thing is, you can’t appreciate the good without the bad.

“The longer this goes on, the more likely it is that relief that it’s over may accompany, or even overshadow the gratification of desire fulfilled.”
And that is why there should be more things to go for with different ways to get it. Like I said, some will have this drop-rate, other will be a reward for a quest and so on. So when you get tired of hunting one item you might go for another one. The issue with currency, and especially gold, is that there are usually just a few ways that work the best at farming that currency. So people keep doing that over and over again, reward after reward. So that system by defenition goes on longer.

“In addition, there is the very real chance you’ll never get the item.” The strange thing is, is that I do hear this argument a lot in this discussion while it’s completely unreasenable. I guess it’s based more on feeling than on fact. You see, this is statistically almost impossible. Let’s make an example. Take a coin and throw it up 15 times. How much would you want to bet for it that is always fall on the same side. Not much right? Now in the game one side would be getting the item, the other side would be not getting the item. With a drop-rate of 1% it’s very unlikely that you need 200 or more times to get it. In addition what the developer can do (I know this is the case in some games) is detect that you did where very unlucky and so garantee a valuable drop if you would go over that 200 times.

In fact, overall you will see that usually drop-rates like this tend to be better then when going for the currency approach. So where you have a drop-rate of 1% (so on average 100 drops to get the item), you might need to do the content 200 times to get the currency you need to buy it. This is ofcource just depending on how the developer creates it, so no given. But this is usually the case because you can buy more with it (more then one item) and you can get it in multiple places. So not doing that would mean buying the item would get to easy.

“You might get it first time out, or you may end up repeating the content a lot more than you might with an incremental system (like GW2 dungeon tokens).” Again, yes the possibility is there and if all items would be rewarded that way, you will for sure have some items that seem to take forever to get and would have been faster with the currency-approach. But as stated above, because currency usually required more repeation (not even to meantion, less variation of content) on everage there would be much more repeating with the currency approach. Lastly the one does not have to exclude the other. You can still make items (while not all) not account bound, meaning there is still the option to buy them. The main difference is that there is now also a more direct approach of getting them by going to that one mob, boss, content and do that yourself. Again, this only works if it is not from content (a boss) that does get farmed for it’s averall good loot like the world-bosses. Because now the item will still drop so much (between al the people) that it will flood on the TP making the price drop so low that buying it is still the best way to get it.

That is also why this approach only works if you use it almost everywhere. If you would now add in 5 mobs that have some special item, then people will go farm those 5 for the money, again fllooding the TP with that item, reducing the cost and so making the currency approach again the best way. Now if nearly all (non-account bound) rewards would put in the game like this, you will not have that issue.

Obviously a problem here is that many rewards come from a cash-shop. Pretty much removing this approach as an option.

Sure, you need to keep people busy. But the way I explain it does not remove that. Having one mob drop one item still means you need to farm that mob. The difference is that now you are more specific working toward one item, and every kill has the ‘will it drop’ rush.

Once they got that item, they move to the next mob or boss, then they will move to some quest-line that rewards an item, then to a dungeon, then do some crafting and so on. Some rewards are guaranteed drops (like the quests) other still have a drop-rate and so require some farming. However, people keep doing other things.

A bonus to this approach is that items have a game-value. You have the mini or sword of that one boss, or got that skin from that one quest.

Instead of basically just grinding for some currency you now care about the loot you get.

With the current approach (or at least for a long time) people simply did whatever rewarded the best gold over and over to then buy what they wanted. With the latest approach they farm maps. There is already a little more variation then before but it’s still not ideal.

Items people want to get should drop from specific places instead of having all mobs drop everything but with extreme low probability. This current approach means you can’t work directly for many items other than grinding gold (or other currencies) and buying it. Meanwhile the items overall still drops a lot but for players not interested in the item itself so they will end up on the TP.

This all results in people grinding gold (or other currency) to buy the items they want. That gets boring over-time. This has been an issue since the beginning and is imho still the main reason why people left the game. Because no matter how great some features of the game are, when people get bored, they leave.

This has changed a little, but it’s still not optimal. Now many good items you can buy with map-specific currency. This might be a little better, but in the end you are still just farming some currency all the time to get the items you want.

The way raids rewards specific items is very good, and is for sure part why that part of the game is still so popular. However, you need that system all over the game. Specific content (including mobs) reward specific items.

The lack of traditional quest is also an issue here. Instead of having people complete different quest for rewards, now for many it feels like just grinding the currency.

It all depends on your definition of ‘dead’. Some refer to Wildstar as begin dead, for others Wildstart is still very much alive because dead to them means that the servers must have closed down. For others dead means that you don’t see many people around in the world and activity in your friend-list and / or guild-list has gone down.

Personally I would look at where a game comes from, what it could have been and put that against the current state. Also things like having to shrink down a dev-team is a factor in my opinion. But also how ‘the outside world’ looks at a game (is it dead to them?) and how full or empty maps and guilds are.

The next expansion will likely say more, but for some the game is already dead, for others the game is still 100% alive and kicking.

Anet did not put traditional quests in the game and that has been a problem even from before the game launched. Initially there where only events, but from the alpha or beta it became known that that did not work so well. So they added in hearths. But still events and hearths are not really able to replace traditional quests for some things.

Over the years we did see multiple tries at adding something to the game (Like collections) that was supposed to make up for the lack of traditional quests, without putting in traditional quests. This might be another attempt, I have no idea. But so far none of them where really able to replace traditional quests.

Having a nice reward at the end of this ‘quest’ is still a step in the correct direction. But it looks like it still has it’s issues when compared to a traditional quest.

Quests are great ways to tell little stories, you learn to know npc’s, learn about their history. It is a way to bound you to the world.

They are probably reluctant to put in traditional quest because they don’t want the game to look to much as a traditional MMORPG.

Nonetheless, I do think not having traditional quests is one of the bigger issues of this game and they should seriously consider putting them in.

Killthehealersffs.8940:

You wanted them 3 months updates

No. Here I was thinking you knew what I wanted.

Killthehealersffs.8940:

You wanted more x-packs

I for sure wanted expansions. But that is only part of the solution that I wanted. The expansions where a way to release content and earn money that way. Allowing for the game to be designed in a fun way where most (almost all) items could be earned ingame in a fun way. And while HoT did make some progress there, many items still are just buy or grind.

Killthehealersffs.8940:

You wanted more items behind Hard content , so ppl dont feel they grind gold > the company creates Raids which offer the most gold and the Legendary Armor > a minor amount of community does that

I wanted rewards behind content yes, not only behind hard content. I also explained that very detailed in that past. Yes some items are maybe in a hard raid, other behind an easy kill or behind a quest line or a craft reward and so on.

With HoT they introduces Raids and Raids are now the most clear / consistent place where they put rewards behind content. And the Raids are overall well received, people love them. Well the people who play it that is. The rest of the community not so much, because they feel the Raids get to much attention. But I don’t hear many people complain about the quality of Raids.

So if anything, this suggest that the idea of rewards behind content is a good one. But like I also said all the time.. Place rewards behind content but all over the game, not just behind one type of (hard) content while still having most rewards being a boring grind.

Killthehealersffs.8940:

What again the ‘’Perfectly in line with what I did say in the past’’

So yes, perfectly in line with what I said.

Killthehealersffs.8940:

That is a little more then 8 months ago now. to be used in GW3 , because now its too late .

So I did say it was already to late. And yes, I also did say, the only way I could see them still getting things on track (After the 6 months after HoT) was if they would release the next expansion basically as GW3. However I also did say I did not see that happen. And with the information we have now we know that is not going to happen.

—

Anyway, this topic is not the place for that discussion, so I leave it to that.

Killthehealersffs.8940:

1 year ago you where saying the the Devs should focus on the GW1 model (faster x-packs + remove the 2 Weeks Living story > for 3 months updates)
And put rewards , behind skiled content ,so it will feel rewarding and not grind (Raids>Legendary )
And now they cant go back in their former glory ?

I have been saying that from about half a year after the release of GW2 up to the release of HoT. I also said that in my opinion HoT (and the first year after that) was in my opinion the last opportunity to turn things around.

Considering thinks did not get fixed and we are well passed the half year after HoT I now indeed do not think they can get back to their former glory. Perfectly in line with what I did say in the past.

Killthehealersffs.8940:

doesnt representthe community

Maybe instead of only looking at the currently playing community they should also look at people who where leaving and left. The current community have been screaming for LS releases because there was a content-drought. That did not turn things around did it?

Also I did not change the opinion, I have said before that HoT was the time where they had to fix thing

Killthehealersffs.8940:

So instead of bickering that WoW is already taking 12 dollars and forces you to pay EXTRA REAL MONEY to some cosmetic is ok.

I did not say that. Personally I think is very greedy of them.

Killthehealersffs.8940:

But in GW2 case where you can change gold>gems IS NOT OK ?

That ability by itself is not a bad thing. The problem was that the way they implemented it, collecting skins was boring or grindy. No real game-play value. Over time that has bored or burned people out.

Killthehealersffs.8940:

Have you seen from the start opf the X-packall places offer a huge amount of gold and YOU ARE NOT FORCED TO SPENT ANY MONEY IN THE GEMSTORE ….hence the lack on the real income ?

That is the thing that I talked about a few years ago isn’t it. This approach is great for the short-term. Many people and enough will be spending money in the cash-shop. Some grind gold to buy it, some spend money. Meanwhile the game gets more and better looking items that people then buy or grind for. Because like it or not, chasing these type of items is what many people do in an MMO.

However overtime buying skins gets boring, grinding for it burns people out. So your player-base shrinks and people are less willing to spend money. So you have less people in the game and those that are might spend less in the cash-shop. That is why in my opinion this has always been bad system for a game like GW2.

Obviously I can not proof this was indeed one of the main reasons things did go as they have. But I did say they would go this way when they would keep using that system.

A drop of income does also not have to be an issue as long as there are consistent spikes of income on a short interval. That is also why I do believe in a true B2P model, however then you should release the expansion closer to each other and meanwhile also not burn / bore people out, scaring them away preventing them for buying your next expansion.

Just a flesh wound.3589:

Devata.6589:

Just a flesh wound.3589:

Dawdler.8521:

Just a flesh wound.3589:

Dawdler.8521:

mauried.5608:

I dont want to see a monthly sub, but players have to understand that theres no such thing as a free lunch.

The difference here is that for subscription MMOs every lunch lady say “$4 for slop and a coke”. You maybe say "but I dont have that today, can I have a sandwich? " and they say GTFO you are not even allowed to sit in a chair or be in the cafeteria without paying. You are sad and your friends that wanted to sit at the table with you miss you, so they are considering not eating tomorrow because this kittening sucks and the lunch lady is mean.

The Guild Wars lunch lady however say “here’s your complementary slop!” and dump it on your plate regardless. You say “uuuuh… can I have a coke?” and they say “sure thats $2!”. As you take your seat with your friends you think “hmm maybe I should have taken the premium slop for $5 instead” and at the end they say “see you tomorrow!” and you are all guranteed to come back, if only to smacktalk and enjoy the company. Or get premium slop.

I read that and I don’t have a clue as to what you’re talking about cuz I’m not paying extra for any content past my expansion purchases.

Complementary slop is ?
$2 coke is ?
$5 premium slop is ?

And the concept of metaphors fly over your head, wooooosh… Use your imagination.

Its not about you, its about the gemstore ecosystem of GW2 making people want to pay for something they desire. You may not buy more than expansions – plenty buy keys, makeover kits, character slots, inventory slots, bank tabs, hell even multiple HoT accounts. They arent forced and they arent thrown out if they dont.

For people that want a monthly sub, buy gems every month. Nothing is stopping you. A subscription wouldnt give us amy more content than what Anet has amazingly achieved (dont think anyone truly expected GW2 to be alive and well 5 years on, given the stiff competition over the years… from subscription MMOs that tanked hard).

The metaphors have to make sense or else it doesn’t work. The other MMOs have “gemstores” selling “slop” also, including subscription MMOs. You’re describing every MMO out there and pointing out gw2 like it’s different.

Here’s WoW’s ingame store. Pets, mounts, bundled items, skins, services, etc, that they charge on top of their: buy game, pay for expansion and monthly fees.
https://us.battle.net/shop/en/product/game/wow

Note the prices. Not cheaper and in some cases, way more expensive “slop”

Comparison the two shops is just silly.

How many pets, mounts and skins does that game have for you to earn in the world?

Now how much does it have in the shop?
Pets (mini’s): 13
Mounts: 10
Helms (skins): 3

Nope. You’re missing the point of this discussion.

He said about the first game
hey say GTFO you are not even allowed to sit in a chair or be in the cafeteria without paying.
In this case he’s only talking about monthly subscription.

The second (gw2 example) he’s talking about gemstore items.
Its not about you, its about the gemstore ecosystem of GW2 making people want to pay for something they desire.

Whether or not there’s a lot that people want to buy in the gemstore isn’t relevant. His analogy is comparing apples to oranges since he’s comparing a required monthly subscription to play to optional gemstore pixels.

But the “making people want to pay for something they desire (from the cash-shop)” is more of a thing in a game where there is a heavy focus on a cash-shop then in a game where there is just a small focus on it.

Anyway, Then I think I miss the point of the comparison with the other store. So nevermind then.

Obviously they are still making some nice money, but the size of the staff is also based on how GW2 did in the pass, and compared to that things are really low. If the next expansion sales will be disappointing, so lower as HoT, what I personally expect because of people who left and won’t come back.

Then I expect also the team to shrink as well (what also scares some people of). Simply because the game itself is then running on a smaller scope (popularity, player-base, income).

Of course P2P is not the solution. Since the release of WoW (2004) only one other new MMO has been successful with the P2P model and that was Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn. Now you talk about an optional subscription but the option for an subscription already exist as nobody is stopping you from spending 10 dollar a month on this game.

The solution was to make a game that people happily play and keep playing having fun and keep having fun, tell their friends about and have them come and play as well. Then people will be spending money, being it by buying the games, spending money in the cash-shop or by paying a subscription.

Basically the model itself is the not even the issue, the way it effects a game might be. But a P2P model could work, cash-shop could work or truly B2P could work. As long as the game is fun and stays fun for the players. (Most games use a mix but have a clear focus on one of them)

However all models have it’s issues. P2P is something that might prevent people from coming to the game in the first place. Cash-shop means the game needs to sell you items, keeping them out the game making a game over-time boring or and grindy (what happed with GW2 imho) and B2P has a higher risk because you better have a good game and expansions or you might lose money (wile with the other models at least you can still milk the cow a little).

I have always been an advocate for B2P (Like GW1) because P2P is just not very popular these days and will keep many people away in the first place. And a cash-shop focused approach (like GW2) is a problem in an MMO because you are always effecting the game / game-play itself. Compromising it if you will. Exactly what imo happed with GW2 and one of the main reasons why people got bored and burned out by it.

However what they should focus on is the game, and draw their conclusions from that.

Having said that, at best they will be able to get things stable again. I don’t think it’s possible to get it back to it’s former glory, simply because to many people have left that will not be coming back.

Just a flesh wound.3589:

Dawdler.8521:

Just a flesh wound.3589:

Dawdler.8521:

mauried.5608:

I dont want to see a monthly sub, but players have to understand that theres no such thing as a free lunch.

The difference here is that for subscription MMOs every lunch lady say “$4 for slop and a coke”. You maybe say "but I dont have that today, can I have a sandwich? " and they say GTFO you are not even allowed to sit in a chair or be in the cafeteria without paying. You are sad and your friends that wanted to sit at the table with you miss you, so they are considering not eating tomorrow because this kittening sucks and the lunch lady is mean.

The Guild Wars lunch lady however say “here’s your complementary slop!” and dump it on your plate regardless. You say “uuuuh… can I have a coke?” and they say “sure thats $2!”. As you take your seat with your friends you think “hmm maybe I should have taken the premium slop for $5 instead” and at the end they say “see you tomorrow!” and you are all guranteed to come back, if only to smacktalk and enjoy the company. Or get premium slop.

I read that and I don’t have a clue as to what you’re talking about cuz I’m not paying extra for any content past my expansion purchases.

Complementary slop is ?
$2 coke is ?
$5 premium slop is ?

And the concept of metaphors fly over your head, wooooosh… Use your imagination.

Its not about you, its about the gemstore ecosystem of GW2 making people want to pay for something they desire. You may not buy more than expansions – plenty buy keys, makeover kits, character slots, inventory slots, bank tabs, hell even multiple HoT accounts. They arent forced and they arent thrown out if they dont.

For people that want a monthly sub, buy gems every month. Nothing is stopping you. A subscription wouldnt give us amy more content than what Anet has amazingly achieved (dont think anyone truly expected GW2 to be alive and well 5 years on, given the stiff competition over the years… from subscription MMOs that tanked hard).

The metaphors have to make sense or else it doesn’t work. The other MMOs have “gemstores” selling “slop” also, including subscription MMOs. You’re describing every MMO out there and pointing out gw2 like it’s different.

Here’s WoW’s ingame store. Pets, mounts, bundled items, skins, services, etc, that they charge on top of their: buy game, pay for expansion and monthly fees.
https://us.battle.net/shop/en/product/game/wow

Note the prices. Not cheaper and in some cases, way more expensive “slop”

Comparison the two shops is just silly.

How many pets, mounts and skins does that game have for you to earn in the world?

Now how much does it have in the shop?
Pets (mini’s): 13
Mounts: 10
Helms (skins): 3

Ubi.4136:

Of course they’re adding mounts. That has already been leaked. Mounts are going to be the gliders of the next expansion. Mounts will have masteries (like gliders) and, at first, only work in the new content.

Yes, they will add tons of gem store skins (like gliders).
Yes, 6 months after the expac comes out they “may” add it to the base game if it sells more copies of the expansion.

It’s pretty simple guys and following the same formula.

That is very likely. And we all know how that worked out. You can just sell the skins, but that will bore out many (most) of the player base? In fact this formula that has been in GW2 from the beginning is imho what has been the problem since the beginning.

phys.7689:

Devata.6589:

Ubi.4136:

Of course they’re adding mounts. That has already been leaked. Mounts are going to be the gliders of the next expansion. Mounts will have masteries (like gliders) and, at first, only work in the new content.

Yes, they will add tons of gem store skins (like gliders).
Yes, 6 months after the expac comes out they “may” add it to the base game if it sells more copies of the expansion.

It’s pretty simple guys and following the same formula.

That is very likely. And we all know how that worked out. Just sell the dam skins, sure you bore out most of the player base, but who cares right?

sorry, but reality of this games business model, is that they probably wont make more money by having less stuff in the gem shop, at this time.

At this time I also don’t know what would still turn things around. Personally I am afraid nothing will.

But the key point here is “At this point”. That is why I started to talk about this approach like half a year after release of GW2.

Many people might have found me to negative back then, but really all I tried to prevent is the game ending up where it is now. If anybody is not to blame, it’s the people who did blow the horn back then.

But I am convinced that if the game did had make this sort of items more fun to earn, more people would be more happily playing (not burned out, not bored). If GW2 would then instead of selling those things, have had expansion on a much faster interval (of course, good expansion) they would have been earning the money that ways and would still have a bigger player-base with higher results.

The question now is, what if they would put the complete team on expansions (so start pushing out more expansion to earn money) and indeed not put those items in the store but in game. Would that have a positive effect? At this point I don’t know. Maybe, maybe not. I do think it’s better for the game itself, that for sure. But would it help the results?

The should have gone for that approach from the beginning.

spartacus aus istan.5720:

I liked the system they had in GW1. There was only one way to tame a white moa. You’d have to enter and leave a city until a group of White Moas spawned, because they didn’t spawn every time. Then you had to run after and tame them. This wasnt difficult, but still not easy. And I was happy when i finally had my white moa … i called her Kormir.

Or the Jingle Bear! This christmas pet was only obtainable if you completed the wintersday story in EotN.

something like that would be nice to see!

Yeah indeed, I spend lots of time in some other MMO collecting ranger pets. Some you could easily get but of course you did go for the special ones that required special ways to get them. Lots of fun. Now that is how you keep people busy during a ‘content drought’.

They should have put them in the game for you to catch, with many different skins, some rare spawns, some hard to catch, some spawn from an event, some you get inside a dungeon, get in a raid or fractals and so on. Collecting such special pets is great fun. More fun than many of the events and it can keep a person busy for a while. It is exactly these kind of activities (also think about mini’s, toys and skins) that the games misses or replaces by currency-grind.

But I don’t see them putting it in, maybe they would put in a few more skins or put them in the gem-store. But that has no game-value, just some more grind.

But really putting it ingame in a way that is also fun to collect them I don’t think is going to happen any time soon. Anet fails to see the importance of that type of content, or simply is not able to implement it because they monetize that part of the game.

Exactly the same can be and should be done with mounts (Let’s say we would get them in the next expansion ). But I doubt they will implement mounts in that way. Looking how Anet did implement things before it’s more likely you will be getting your first mount easy and most other mounts you will be able to buy from the gem-store. What is a boring mechanic. Of course you can hope for an interesting fun implementation. But based on the track-record…

I agree, when we got the missions they said they created in a way that they could easily extend on it, so far for that. We got one more addition and then they seem to forget all about it. Even with HoT at the very least I expected to have some of the old mission being put in the new maps. But none of that.

And not only should they make more of the existing missions, they should add new type of missions.

I will not say Guilds did get no love, with HoT they got the Guild Halls what was great, but if it comes to activities to do with the guild things are not so good. It looks like Anet is more focused on getting random people playing in open maps.
Back in the day you would do guild-missions or for a PvX guild go into WvW as a guild-activity (we did both a lot). Mega-Servers basically killed WvW as guild-activity for PvX guilds.
With the release of HoT capturing the Guild Hall finally was a new real activity do to with the guild. Our guild did it twice (once for every guild hall). Building the hall was not really an activity you did together, but you would still follow the progress together, and came together when the building where constructed. But once all buildings where done that was also gone.

Guilds did get the ability to start world-bosses and it is fun to do that a few times, but it was already old content and while you can start it as guild, it is not so much a guild-event (was not closed off and does not fit any size guild). Not to mention that doing it from the world-spawn was usually easier.

Considering I was mostly active with these sort of things (as Guild Leader) once there was less of this to do, and people got less interested in Guild Missions there was also less incentive for me to be active.

Guilds are now mostly used to organize raids. However, if it comes to activities, things to do together with the guild, guilds are in a bad state now.

But for the sake of all leader and officers out there (and the members obviously), yeah add more activities for guilds. This open world group content did not work out so move back to activities for guilds if you want people to play together.

Lucentfir.7430:

I think people are still forgetting that HoT was more of a framework expansion than a actual content expansion. As in the content placed in HoT was more for future workings. and feature rich, Examples are Guild Halls, Raids, new skills/spec system(E-Specs), progression system, and Legendary Crafting(Precursor crafting). I definitely have my hopes up for the next expansion being more content rich now that we have good systems in place. A good indicator of this is also the quality of maps released through LS as well as story. So I’m going to say it’ll probably do better than HoT.

It was sold as an expansion, and they had to as they could not wait until now with the first expansion.
So no matter if you consider HoT a true expansion or not does not really matter.

Officially and for pretty much any player it simply was.

After eventually getting bored by the initial game (Many people now point to HoT as the big problem, but players where leaving GW2 also before HoT, that was likely why we got HoT in the first place) and then again within the first half year of HoT many of them are simply not likely to come back for a new expansion, no matter how good it is.

And I think Anet is very aware / afraid of this, based on this statement of Mike-O Brien. https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/68vw84/flashpoint_devs_here_ask_us_anything/dh1pm80/

Now Bearhugger.4326 has a point that there are not many MMO alternatives for GW2 and that that might give some hope. While you can wonder if that really matters, will people not also go to other games? 2016 was an awesome year for games.

Some players might want an MMO but many might have switched to games like BF 1 or Overwatch and be happy there.

And still the question will be if the next expansion will be able to solve what was wrong since vanilla.
Sure, so far everything looks great, with a little luck we will also get less waypoints in the new maps.

But will the core problems be solved, or will much of the content still feel like a grind?

Don’t forget that HoT did also look very promising before release. And really, much of the content was not that bad, but it just did not solve the issues many people already had before HoT.