Guild Wars 2

I’m trying to filter to find a server without Skyhammer, it shows like 7 servers, but two of them were clearly running Skyhammer. All I did was mark the skyhammer image with the red “X.” Am I doing something wrong or is it broken?

It’s not that Dhuumfire is a bad trait, or even a bad idea. It simply doesn’t belong in Spite. The only thing that remotely links it to the traitline is Condition Duration provided in the line. In my opinion, looking at the associated weapons/stats/other traits within Spite there should be a control heavy grandmaster trait. Close to Death is a fine damage trait. How about something that plays off Chill? IE whenever you chill an enemy you also apply Vuln and/or Weakness. Or you transfer a condition when chilling an enemy. Etc. Etc.

A random burn on crit (which isn’t even present in Spite) in no way, shape, or form, contributes to the playstyle associated with the rest of this trait line.

Yep. Necros do fine in melee. The problem is getting into melee

I love fighting Warriors. Why? Because they’re the only class that will reliably actually fight you. Everyone else attempts to run if they’re not outnumbering you at least 3:1, and if they fight you and start losing they run. I love the moment when I lock gazes with the Warrior and you charge at each other. Winner lives. Loses dies. Warriors tends to have an honor about them in this regard.

Another Necro. Not because I’m so amazing, but because most Necros are faceroll condi builds. When faced with a tanky power necro most of them really don’t know what to do and easily perish at my hand.

Big attacks are counter-able with aegis, dodge, interrupts, stuns, etc. Small/fast attacks are countered by what specifically? Protection, healing, death shroud, etc. – IE things that also counter big hits. You can’t have it both ways.

I like what you did there Flumek. I have a Knights/Celestial mix on 0/20/0/20/30… not as much damage as yours has, but tankier and has access to stability. If we ever get another reliable source of stability and death magic is improved I may look into something along the lines of what you have.

I agree. I must disagree with those who ask for vigor as avoiding damage doesn’t suite Necro so well. But stability, for a “fight or die” profession feels only appropriate.

-Scepter is good, if not OP in certain situations/builds (Dhuumfire)
-Axe autoattack certainly needs buffing.
-Dagger is good, but has some of the most difficulty of melee builds in the game with keeping range in PvP.
-Staff is largely fine, but the autoattack speed is too slow for PvP.

-Spite is solid overall, with the exception of Dhuumfire, which should probably be something more control oriented, given the line it is in. This causes Condi builds to be OP at times, while denying power builds a potential grandmaster for a control heavy damage build.
-Curses is great, aside from Withering Precision being very lackluster.
-Death Magic has all kinds of issues and needs a pseudo-overhaul.
-Blood doesn’t need an overhaul, but needs numeric buffs.
-Soul Reaping is by far our best designed trait line, both as balance and diversity/design are concerned.

-Death Shroud has too much relying on it for what it delivers. Depending on what trait lines you invest it it really contributes little as a class mechanic. Soul Reaping builds, for example, get great use out of it, but other builds that might rely on it defensively fall short.

Overall Necro is mildly below average. It needs modest buffs to specific traits/weapons, and mild buffs overall. These failings can be overcome with skillful play in PvE, until an equally or more skilled opponent with a stronger profession come into play in PvP.

I personally like the idea of axe AA cleaving to ONE nearby target with a large cleave radius. Maybe even the 600 range of the axe itself. Change nothing else.

Yep. It won’t ever really catch on because its not great at any one thing, but if you want a versatile build with balanced offense/defense its tough to go wrong.

Give 0/20/0/20/30 a try.

Weakening Shroud, Banshee’s Wail, Vampiric Precision, Bloodthirsty, Path of Midnight, Near to Death, Foot in the Grave. These can be swapped as needed IE Bloodthirsty for Deathly Invigoration for more support, or Foot in the Grave for Deathly Perception if you don’t need stability.

Whatever utilities you like as you’re not locked into one type. I run WoP at all times plus whatever is situationally needed.

Axe/WH + D/D. Knights/Celestial Mix w/ Traveler Runes. Accuracy + Blood/Strength/Battle

Tanky/Damage mix. Compared to bunkery Well builds it has much better sustained defense/versatility but can’t pop cooldowns for beast mode. Not as much damage as a zerker build, of course, but it gets some of the best damage and tanking traits for a great bruiser build. Much better for WvW roaming. Good in PvE.

I’ve been VERY happy with this build. Works reasonably well in spvp too.

Dark Armor (5pt)
Grants bonus toughness that increases at lower health levels OR grants increased toughness that increases based on life force.

Shrouded Removal (15pt)

Or vice-versa.

Land Spear/Greatsword – 2 handed cleaving attacks. Heavy control with chills/fears/etc.
Shortbow – Dark Ranger style. Condi/power hybrid weapon.

JonathanSharp.7094:

Dhuumfire moving would also open up a gap for a new GM trait in Spite, so we’d need to figure that out as well.

Great suggestions!

Chilling Thirst
You deal more and receive less damage from chilled enemies. Increases the duration of your chill effects by 20%.

Or some generic benefit for chilling/immobilizing/fearing an enemy. Quickness? There really is a niche to filled on the control side of things.

Lopez.7369:

JonPeters.5630:

Even though we wont do it for Dec 10. I just wanted to throw out a wacky possible idea for Dhuumfire that we could discuss…

• Life Blast has a 100% chance to cause Burning on hit (2 seconds long). 6 seconds ICD.

Obviously the #s are ballpark and not necessarily final. The % chance, duration, and ICD are all subject to change.

Jon

Would this replace the current Dhuumfire? If so, there are a few problems:

The inner cooldown for this would effectively be 10 seconds because of Death Shroud’s cooldown.

Not if you 1) have near to death OR 2) are staying in DS

Reaper’s Might would encourage Spite to stay in DS, Might on Life Blast, and burning every so often on top of this. Even in a power build the Might would help to keep your condi dmg up to feed the burning.

JonPeters.5630:

Even though we wont do it for Dec 10. I just wanted to throw out a wacky possible idea for Dhuumfire that we could discuss…

• Life Blast has a 100% chance to cause Burning on hit (2 seconds long). 6 seconds ICD.

Obviously the #s are ballpark and not necessarily final. The % chance, duration, and ICD are all subject to change.

Jon

I like this in that it creates some interesting play in the “shroud and out” style to drop a single life blast + maybe a dark path, then drop out of DS. That being said I still question the placement of Dhuumfire in Spite, or at least with it taking up a Grandmaster trait that could (potentially) play off control skills like chill, immobilize, etc. I would say, short term, that’s an improvement, but long term I would like to see you re-evaulate that trait slot entirely.

Gonna agree with manacraft there. A panic button of sorts + some sort of normalization to LF is probably the route to go. I might argue that D/WH should still have some sort of leg up in the lifesteal department, but not so much that it throws the balance off entirely. This could easily be accomplished by buffing Life Siphon.

Jon, again, thanks so much for posting. On Weakening Shroud…. the big thing here for me is the removal of the ICD. Nothing was more frustrating than running a Near to Death build and this only proccing every other shroud. It was unreliable in the thick of battle because you didn’t know if it was up or not, or felt like you need to delay entering DS just in case. Much appreciated and with that I could stomach a 2-3 sec weakness, for sure.

[Edit] Oh, also, any thoughts on normalizing Reaper’s Precision w/ a small ICD + larger LF gain? Fairly good in very specific AoE situations, but the low proc rate for only 1% life force makes it lackluster in most cases. Unless that’s the design goal?

A consideration for Vital Persistence- what if instead of being buffed to 50% it decayed 20% slower and damage taken while in DS were 20% lower as well? Or might that be a better separate trait in Death Magic? Just a thought.

Re: Death Magic…

Dark Armor is a trait that could have some promise as a master minor. I know you guys don’t want to feed Necros too many boons, but consider having this trait grant either…

Stability + Toughness while channeling. (with a CD)
or
Stability + Toughness after getting affected with a stun/knockdown/etc. (also with a CD) This would allow us to subvert chain CC when getting focused, an area we are majorly lacking in right now, that you wouldn’t think would be one of our weaknesses.

I’m 100% on board with not giving Necro Vigor. It doesn’t sit well with the design of the class, but Stability SCREAMS Necro since we’re a stand and fight profession.

For 2s after entering DS you gain X toughness and conditions applied last 50% normal duration.

Or bake it into DS as a passive effect for all Necros. Obviously along with the Dhuumfire removal patch =D

If you had the immediate access to everything you would quickly become bored, possibly before you even had time to become familiar with many nuances of the game. Levels serve in many ways, including easing the player into difficulty, creating a sense of progression/discovery, etc. This is one of a reason reasons its easier to burn out on a FPS than an RPG.

With Weakening Shroud getting nerfed into uselessness it raises (IMO) the necessity for some of the other adept majors in the Curse line to get looked at as alternatives. One that jumps out at me is Reaper’s Precision. The life force gain on this is very negligible except in very specific scenarios like when using Life Transfer. I would very much like to see the chance/life force increased, but with a cooldown. For example, crits have a 100% chance to restore 2% life force, but with a 1s cooldown.

This is part buff, but with the cooldown to keep it from getting too out of control. Probably the direction a lot of mechanics need to go, such as lifesteal.

A good suggestion, but the problem with the trait is that it assumes you’re running minions. No other line makes an assumption in a minor trait that you’re using a particular type of utility skill. This is perfectly fine in major traits, but minors are supposed to be useful to all builds, and this one isn’t.

Some great (negative) feedback guys, but some of the posts are bordering on hostile. Don’t scare them away or they might not come back at all. What I’m picking up on so far as general feedback lately…

-Dhuumfire, despite being powerful, is bad for Necros overall.
-More control would be welcome, especially for power builds.
-DS is great, but fails to protect us against burst from multiple sources like Vigor/Evade/Stealth/Invulns can.
-Aside from minions, Life Siphons are still rather weak.
-Death Magic needs less emphasis on minions.

Also, another consideration IF Terror and Dhuumfire are moved to Curse Grandmasters… they’re both effectively condition burst. Would it not be more appropriate to have Terror be the “burst” option and have Dhuumfire instead apply longer duration Torment? This would create a consideration of “Do I spec for burst condition or sustained pressure conditions?” Plus Torment is infinitely easier to balance than burning because you can more granularly adjust the stacks/duration, compared to Burning.

Sepreh.5924:

Hey Jon, thanks for posting!

I know me talking about this idea is broken recordish and comes from another necro (Nemesis), but has any thought been given to moving Dhuumfire to grandmaster in curses and moving terror to grandmaster in curses (and perhaps reverting the change to terror damage)? That way, condi necros will not have to invest into spite if they do not want to, the “condi burst” of dhuumfire+terror would be stopped and build diversity would be opened up.

Clearly another trait would need to be put into spite master. Maybe a modification of withering precision that includes chill as well as weakness?

I liked that last bit… that’s very much along the lines of what I’d like to see as a Spite grandmaster. Withering Precision (not exactly, but something similar) fits so perfectly in the Spite line, while Dhuumfire clearly belongs in Curses.

JonPeters.5630:

Dhuumfire
We know there are problems here, but again this condition helps those conditionmancers get over the top and is really what brought them into play in a lot of parts of the game. I think the real problems with this trait are:
1) Having to put 30 points into the power line as a condition necro.
2) Requiring crit on a 30 point trait in a line that does nothing to improve crit chance.

We talk about a lot of different versions of this trait including moving to master tier, making it on hit instead of on crit, and reworking the numbers to making it more reliable to use and to counter.

All of this back and forth could upset a lot of balance, but if this moved down to master tier Terror would almost certainly be moving up to grandmaster to accommodate. At least then condition necromancers would be 20/30/x/x/x, which just makes so much more sense. The biggest thing holding that back is the lack of a replacement grandmaster in Spite. We aren’t huge fans of weapon or utility type specific traits at this tier otherwise an improved Axe Training might have a shot. This is the crux of the damage necromancer problem right now, and we will talk about it more next week so any discussion on it here will aid us in those talks.

Jon,

Thanks for the post. I very much agree with your points on Dhuumfire, though I specifically wanted to comment on the Spite grandmaster traits. Close to Death makes a great deal of sense as a raw damage increase, however despite the balance considerations I don’t feel Dhuumfire belongs in this line, or at the very least not as the grandmaster. Have you guys toyed at all with the idea of creating a grandmaster trait centered around conditions that do not do damage? This is particularly intriguing to me because this is the Condition Duration/Power line, so something that boost and/or plays off the application of Chill/Immob/Weakness/Vuln/etc. would be very much welcome. Some ideas:

-Gain quickness when applying Chill/Immobilize/Fear + Reduced CD of skills that apply these effects. 10-20 sec cooldown.
-Gain health and/or might stacks when one of your control conditions is removed.
-Target the Weak- bring this trait to Spite as a Grandmaster, with some functional or numeric tweaks. Again, perhaps go down the line of just working with Immobilize/Fear/Chill/Cripple control skills.
-Also, you might look into defenses against non-damaging condition effects, either as a standalone or addition to one of the above ideas… Rather than trying to shed debilitating conditions maybe you’re better at just powering through them. IE… you take less damage while dazed/stunned/immobilized/feared. The effectiveness of Chill/Cripple/Vulnerability/Weakness is reduced. Etc.

Just some thoughts, but I really feel there is potential for Spite to be fleshed out a little better as a damage/control line, rather than just damage.

Sarrs.4831:

Draehl.2681:

Overkillengine.6084:

If they truly want us to be attrition; they need to do something sufficiently constructive in Blood and Death to give us access to the sustain needed to stay alive and do our jobs.

Agreed. A simple change would be to make blood the “sustain” line and Death the anti-burst line. By buffing lifesteals some more and perhaps giving Death a new Grandmaster trait- “Your life force depletes 90% less from damage for 2 seconds after entering DS” A pseudo block, which won’t stop conditions from coming at you, but can help with our lack of vigor/multi target defense.

IMO move Death Nova to Master, remove Death Chill, and add a new Grandmaster trait along these lines.

Why not just have Death Shroud give Aegis on activation/exit?

Because it would only work on one hit. The idea being to give us some defense against multiple enemies that we are sorely lacking compared to those with vigor/invulns/stealth/etc. This would vary from those in that we would still get hit with any conditions/disables, but would allow DS to eat a large chunk of damage within a small period of time, similar to how it once did, without the downside of being able to do the silly jumps, etc.

When it comes down to it, you can “out skill” and win when outnumbered using classes like Thief, Ele, etc. with their evasive skills, but it is very difficult to with via brute force of the Necro when outnumbered unless you’re fighting complete incompetents.

Overkillengine.6084:

If they truly want us to be attrition; they need to do something sufficiently constructive in Blood and Death to give us access to the sustain needed to stay alive and do our jobs.

Agreed. A simple change would be to make blood the “sustain” line and Death the anti-burst line. By buffing lifesteals some more and perhaps giving Death a new Grandmaster trait- “Your life force depletes 90% less from damage for 2 seconds after entering DS” A pseudo block, which won’t stop conditions from coming at you, but can help with our lack of vigor/multi target defense.

IMO move Death Nova to Master, remove Death Chill, and add a new Grandmaster trait along these lines.

I hope they can at least buff something else in tier 1 curses… now there’s nothing worth taking in order to get to Banshee’s Wail/Furious Demise. Maybe reaper’s precision?

Hey, it happened in WoW. Given, it took the better part of three years for Affliction to be anything more than a farming spec, but hey, it happened.

Weakening Shroud nerf hurts… even more because I know they’re targetting it for the bleed when I’m using it for the Weakness.

I like to think these nerfs are building up to something better down the line.

nekretaal.6485:

Necromancer sustain is currently terrible because the class cannot heal in Death Shroud.

Until this changes, there is no sustain only kill or be killed, with the addition drawback that every other class has access to out of combat mobility to get out of combat and reset cooldowns which the necromancer doesn’t have.

I would have to second this. I play a very defensive, sustained focused Necro build, and far too often more glass cannon type builds just leave combat after their opening salvo and reset the fight. Meanwhile I’ve blown my cooldowns/life force and they effectively whittle down the build that should by all reasonable account be one of the premier whittlers in the game.

Brando.1374:

removing bleeds from necro will not slow us down as much as you think.
Dumbfire needs to be removed or changed to torment instead.

Dhuumfire doesn’t even belong in that traitline. IMO Dhuumfire and Terror need both be Grandmaster Curse traits, that way only one or another can be obtained. Then toss Spite a bone with some sort of Vulnerability or Chill focused trait, more appropriate for the Spite line’s design.

Interesting notes. Though the Necro ones (presented here at least) really don’t do much to increase the sustain/attrition factor. I feel most reasonable Necros will agree our mobility doesn’t need improvement. What needs looked at, however, would be the level of sustain/control we can achieve, especially for non-condi builds that really want to focus on this aspect of gameplay.

I’m talking the viability of things like Dark Path, Death Shroud’s lack of usefulness against multiple foes (compared to evades/invulns/blocks of other professions), the effectiveness of lifesteal, etc. The last balance patch, which supposedly buffed lifesteal was really break even, if not a nerf in some cases.

Necros certainly aren’t the weakest profession, but I feel the Dhuumfire/Terror build creates an illusion that we are better than we actually are, and other builds suffer as a result.

Has anyone had a chance to give this one a try? I’d love to hear feedback from hybrid players as this has some minor similarities.

The top tier builds for every class are close (with a couple of exceptions in certain game types) but the larger imbalance is between builds within a given class. Anet really has a long way to go in making the lesser builds closer to the FOTM ones.

The problem with the perma stealth build is they have decent burst and a high level of sustain, to the point that they can actually outlast tank builds due to avoid so much damage and resetting the fight when they get to ~50%. I really don’t have a problem with burst, the disengage, or the ability to selectively choose which fights they begin. It’s the combination of the three I find troublesome. Even more so when as a lifesteal build my sustain is very much contingent on actually hitting my enemy. Constantly avoiding channels, etc. makes it even more difficult. If lifesteal builds were stronger I could accept having a hard counter, but do only passable builds really need such a hard counter?

I just wish we could be somewhat closer to a GW1 Blood Necro or a SM/DS Warlock from vanilla WoW.

- THIS is an example of how a siphoning attrition build might function. I’ve had this video on my harddrive since 2005 and still watch it from time to time.

I will keep my feedback short:

I would very much like to see more living story emphasis placed on the events in all the of existing zones. Currently, the implementation of living world feels very “apart” from the rest of the world, almost like its pasted on top as an afterthought. I would much rather see the events, event chains, etc. have a larger impact upon the world. Certainly, story needs to progress, but I feel a focus on the core of the game would yield much better results.

Thanks! Spite is definitely an option. I personally don’t use the activate much, but rather keep it equipped when soloing camps, so if another player comes along and I’m out of combat I can swap to any given skill because its never on cooldown.

Flesh Wurm is another great skill for escapes. I tend to be a dive in all or nothing type of player (perfect for the necro style) and use skills that make my victory in that fight more likely, but if you want the option of getting away it’s definitely there.

In regards to weapon setup- that’s the plan. I like D/D because I find Deathly Swarm is often dodged at range, so I use it as a point blank condi transfer in most cases, or after a Dark Pact. Axe/Warhorn is great when you need to chase, disrupt, or back out and heal. Banshee’s Wail is an amazing trait. 3 second dazes are a huge deal in group fights. Wail + Heal is always great.

Warhorn is a great weapon. The only change I would make is in PvE in regards to so many enemies being immune, especially champs. This is a more sweeping change for CC across the board, however.

I would more clearly define them, and proceed with buffs from there. IMO Longbow should be the AoE damage + utility weapon. Rifle should be the single target damage/chase/kite weapon. I won’t get any more specific than that, but if you’re looking at balance its important to have a clearly defined role rather than just playing buff/nerf whackamole.

I thought I’d share the build I’ve been playing around six weeks now. The inspiration came from playing a pretty generic D/x + Staff Soldier Well Bunker build since launch. I needed something new, and spent a while pondering on what exactly I wanted to do, deciding on a few criteria I wanted to meet:

1) It couldn’t be as much of a one-trick pony build as wells. Surely, wells are great for enemies that pile on, but in WvW in particular, this obviously doesn’t happen as much as you might like.
2) In line with #1, I did not want to be locked into using any particular type of utility skill. Traits that affect specific utility skills are not to be taken, as to allow utility skills to truly be treated as utility and be swapped out based on the need at hand. Instead, general or weapon specific traits are taken. In this way one build can be equally viable for all areas of the game.
3) The skill cap need be higher than well builds. Well of Suffering + Dagger autoattack was pretty well top DPS- Death Shroud was pretty much useless outside of soaking damage. This was not very involved gameplay and I wanted something a little more interactive.
4) Get the low hanging fruit of both offensive and defensive traits. The goal is not to be a full on bunker, nor a damage fiend, but more of a bruiser of sorts.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fQAQRBIRdG2IjWne8m2G9eCYSh3cHp44lpeUO6nD

Build Notes:

-Traveler Runes are used, but not available in build editor. I found the extra utility slot freed up from SoLocust far more useful than any given rune set. The stats spread is pretty useful in this build anyway.

-I am currently using a mix of Knights/Soldiers with a couple of Celestial Trinkets, which still leaves crit much lower than I would prefer. In Spvp I use Barbarian with Celestial Jewel. If the Barbarian stat combo is ever opened up in PvE I will certainly go Knights with some Barbarian mixed in for WvW. Subbing Celestial for Soldier is another route if Healing Power scaling is ever noticeably increased.

-Sigils are Accuracy/Battle on both weapon sets. Since you’re critting a good bit the extra condi damage from Might helps on your Bleeds + Torment. Sigil of Blood may be a decent alternative to Battle- I’ve yet to try it, but please let me know how it works if you do!

Gameplay Notes

-Swapping in and out of death shroud, and weapon swapping is optimal to keep might stacks up as well as taking advantage of “on DS effects.” That being said don’t be afraid to use DS to eat damage or to life blast in marginal situations. It is optimal to be swapping in and out of DS as much as possible, but don’t let this be a rule. Between Ghastly Claws and dagger auto you get a good bit of LF generation. Likewise, if you expect a knockdown to be coming soon, hold off on DS to swap in for stability.

-Per the goal of the build, utility skills are completely up to preference. I pretty most always use Well of Power. In open PvE I go Suffering/BiP or Suffering/SoSpite for max damage. Dungeons depend entirely on the fight. WvW I like Spectral Armor + Corrupt Boon or Spectral Wall, again depending on the scale of fighting.

-If you don’t like dagger offhand, definitely go for the Focus. I’ve never been a big fan of the weapon, but it has merits. I prefer the weakness + Condi removal myself.

-Some traits can be swapped to preference. I like to drop Bloodthirsty for Deathly Invigoration in dungeons or more organized WvW. If you’re not a fan of Foot in the Grave, it can certainly be swapped for Deathly Perception, though that begins to deviate the build a bit. Weakening Shroud/Golem can also be subbed out for Chilling Darkness/Plague for larger scale WvW.

-Weakness is most certainly heavy avoidance builds, particularly stealth thieves- sustain depends on hitting things for lifesteal… they keep resetting the fight and manage to outsustain you. Also, there is a particular Mesmer condition build that loads up on Clones/Phantasms with invis. Also, very tough for similar reasons. Most everything else I win or its a sustain stalemate.

Please leave any feedback you have. Especially if you try it with a Celestial/Knights mix and/or Sigil of Blood I’d love to hear your results. Thanks!

More dark/macabre/grim/malevolent looking armor and weapon skins that can also be unlocked for PvE. Yay unocrns.

Agreed 100% with Bhawb. The continuation of that argument, however, is that given our lack of mobility the staying power, damage, utility, etc. isn’t quite up to snuff. For example, I find I can generally last a decent while, but after I blow my tricks I simply can’t recover and keep the momentum up. Especially as a melee necro… the risk/reward isn’t quite where it should be. I feel like most other professions can either recover better or get out of dodge if they can’t. The easy solution is increasing our heals, but I suspect that would overbuff bunkers…

Dark Path actually got a lot better in one of the patches around 2-3 months ago. I’ve only had one not land due to obvious terrain issues.

This is like your next door neighbor griping when you ask him to turn down his obnoxiously loud music. “If I’m not disturbing my neighbors then how will they know how great a stereo I bought?”