Guild Wars 2

Because who wouldn’t want 4 eles doing 10k dps each in their raid, right?

There must be an incentive to use a harder/more complex build. Otherwise people will always go for the easy one, because it gives consistent results. Meaning, no, you don’t have 3 builds to choose from, you have one. Of course, you can always be a special snowflake like me and insist on playing scepter, but it doesn’t change the big picture.

But go ahead, praise a balance which defies basic game design logic.

lucadiro.4519:

Feanor.2358:

Yeah, the sad state of current balance. Pick the easy build.

The balance is super good actually if you are not a revenant or a necro.
You all should bè glad we have 3 very viable build, One for each main Hand weapon we have, instead of complain because some other classes have easier rotation.

Also, if you say that more complex the rotation is more rewarded should It Be, then the damage output on big hitboxes of ele should ne nerfed to be under condi engie dps? (Since It has an harder rotation)

I know, right? I should be glad I can pick between doing something easy or struggling to do something hard for the same results. It’s great balance. Totally gives you incentive to get good, right?

Yeah, the sad state of current balance. Pick the easy build.

TkMan.9638:

Idk why you guys gave feanor’s rotation a +1 or suggested that, i’d be pushing 20k if i tried doing something like that, missed glyph of storms, didn’t any of the conjures: he doesn’t even mention any of the AIR attunement skills. .

I didn’t mention these, as they are… shall I say “standard”? Air 2 is instant, so you want to cast it off cooldown whenever possible. Conjures are used in the same way they were used in the Fresh Air staff build, I assume people are familiar with that.

All I did is break down the rotation in logical “blocks” for easier memorization. Yeah, I skipped the details. It wasn’t my intention to write down the full rotation, it’s already on qT site.

lucadiro.4519:

But even then, you Can play D/W that is nothing more difficult than play a condi ranger and you Can have both more dps on large hitboxes or a very competitive one on small hitboxes.

This is exactly the same issue, it just concerns the elementalist class only. Simple builds being very competitive (or even outclassing, in the case of small hitboxes) complex ones. This is poor balance. It doesn’t create any incentive to master the complex build. If anything, it creates the opposite. The game should NEVER punish you for trying to master it. It should reward you. It doesn’t.

Really? Learning to flank is just the same as learning to maximize Phoenix or Lightning Orb hits, double-hit with Wildfire, keep constantly moving while remaining inside wells, picking up icebows and not getting hit?

Thanks for acknowledging the average ele level though.

Coconut.7082:

What level are we talking about exactly? What is not realistic to achieve??
Is it not realistic to ask players to put MINIMAL EFFORT in their classes, to actually READ what their skills/traits do, and watch some existing videos/guides to learn the rotation?

Doing this is realistic, and is enough for the easy builds. And it gets you to maybe 70% of the potential of the hard ones. And you end up outdps-ed by the already mentioned easy builds. That’s the level we’re talking about.

I used low-mans as an example to show top players not always go for the most efficient/fastest way. I was trying to point out – perhaps too subtly – they can play just about anything, either for fun or to seek challenge, and still succeed. Balancing for these players is irrelevant, really. They can pick comps that aren’t the most optimal and still face a very little chance of failure. This is not the case for the average raiding group, much less the average pug.

That’s not a L2P issue. L2P is when it is realistic to expect people to learn this. The level you’re talking about is never going to be achieved by the majority of players. What I’m saying is the current balance gives the top-end players an irrelevant choice when it could have given a much larger number of players a meaningful one.

Yes, it used to limit choices for everyone. This changed with the introduction of dps meters. Yes, it would limit choices for the top players. Assuming they actually care about that. Which they don’t always, otherwise low-man kills wouldn’t exist. But the benefits seem to outweigh the negatives.

Talindra.4958:

Jesus… this might help some of you here so there’s no doubt

http://gw2bgdm.blogspot.com.au/p/faq.html?m=1

I use BDGM and all I’d say is tht itsssss Gr8 never going back after I installed it.. never harassed anyone and never harassed by anyone who uses it. There is no gear check on the BDGM that I am using. It’s all legal under anet regulations. Read the author’s description as to which one to download.

+1
I also find using it motivational. It feels great when I see I’m doing well and I kind of want to keep it up.

CptAurellian.9537:

Feanor.2358:

maddoctor.2738:

If the problem is that there will always be an optimal composition then how exactly are other games doing it?

By reducing or eliminating the unique features every profession has to offer.

Erm, not really. Wildstar class diversity in raids was fine while all classes brought unique buffs/debuffs. I know that WoW went the other route, but reducing/eliminating unique features is not necessary. However, it’s actually quite important that the buffs hit the entire raid, and that’s where GW2 fails. If a single warrior/mesmer/druid could provide the raid with their respective buffs, we’d still see at least one of each class per raid, but that seems reasonable with 9 classes and 10 spots. With a bit of proper balancing for the non-support dps builds, that would greatly enhance raid diversity.

Giving relevant buffs to multiple classes would also do the trick, but will probably require a lot more balancing.

Agreed, I’m all for buffs affecting the whole 10-man squad. The need to double up on buffer roles is killing the diversity hard. In this scenario unique buffs would serve to actually increase the comp diversity, as you’d want as many of those as possible. The only downside I see to this is powercreeping the raid squad as a whole, so they might need to rebalance the raids.

Coconut.7082:

The game does not encourage you to do that, the more “simple” build may give you a safer kill but not necessarily the fastest one.

The people who care about speed clears are so very few. The average raider is concerned with getting the kills. I don’t argue the meta works well for the top players. I argue it doesn’t for the much larger part of the players who aren’t top.

maddoctor.2738:

Devata.6589:

Well if other games are have less ‘free’ content and if they are better at retaining people (what might or might not be true depending on the game) with expansions then that might be what works better for many people.

Let’s take a look at those other games then.

The first one in numbers of revenue is Lineage. To my knowledge the game is still subscription based and is only active in Korea. I have no idea how expansions work with this one.

The second is Blade & Soul. B&S is free to play with an optional premium membership. “Expansions” have no cost.

Third one is Lineage II. Lineage II is also free to play, no cost for expansions, with an online marketplace.

Next up is Aion. Aion, just like the others, is free to play with free expansions and a cash shop again.

So all the games that surpass Guild Wars 2 in revenue have no paid expansions and the only NCSoft game on that list with paid expansions is Guild Wars 2…

These games are for different markets. Pretty much all of them except GW2 are targeted on the Asian markets and their profits come from them. European and American players have somewhat different tastes and what works (in the market sense) in Asia is not guaranteed to work there. In fact, it most likely won’t. Not to mention MMOs in general are more popular in Asia than they are in EU/US.

GW2 is still under the effects of the content drought after HoT launch. I have friends who only come to play the story for each new episode and then leave until the next one because they lost their enthusiasm about the game back then. This doesn’t mean ANet are doing poorly with the LS updates – they are doing fantastic job – but LS updates are something that can keep the active players in, not bring the retired ones back.

If ANet keeps the pace and quality of the updates, if they release the next expansion in a reasonable time and if it is a successful one, we’ll see GW2 figures improve. Until then it is only normal to see the small decline we’re seeing.

NikeEU.7690:

Fractal lfg asking for rangers are just idiots considering that ele burst damage will kill every fractal boss faster than ranger.

You don’t need to convince me, I know that. Just pointing it out as an indication of change.

Coconut.7082:

Feanor.2358:

Yeah, but fractal LFG asking for condi rangers is a fact. And condi builds aren’t even good in fractals. Raid groups in which the dps is composed entirely of condi rangers are a fact.
Deny all you want, these are realities. It’s not just me, the community is shifting toward condi ranger, because condi ranger is more efficient. And the reason it is more efficient isn’t better potential, it’s better reliability.

You can still argue this isn’t a statistically valid data sample, but hey, give it a few months and you’ll see for yourself.

Fractal LFG’s were asking for 4/5 Necros a while ago (some still are), Raid groups running 4 Rangers are sub-optimal.
If your friends are out-DPSed by a Ranger on EVERY encounter but KC, then I have some bad news for you.

The game cannot and should not be balanced around bad players and groups that don’t understand basic compositions and roles.

I clear all raid bosses with these bad players who don’t understand basic composition and roles every week. So it seems to me the game is already balanced around this level. It is just poorly done, as it encourages playing simple builds rather than mastering difficult ones.

You can, but it means expanding the game. That’s not a matter of balance, it’s a matter of designing and implementing new features.

Yeah, but fractal LFG asking for condi rangers is a fact. And condi builds aren’t even good in fractals. Raid groups in which the dps is composed entirely of condi rangers are a fact.
Deny all you want, these are realities. It’s not just me, the community is shifting toward condi ranger, because condi ranger is more efficient. And the reason it is more efficient isn’t better potential, it’s better reliability.

You can still argue this isn’t a statistically valid data sample, but hey, give it a few months and you’ll see for yourself.

You can only ever have a single optimal choice for any given purpose. No amount of balancing can change that.

Except on KC, obviously. Everywhere else, the dps numbers from condi rangers are higher.

Aand, no, people have looked at the rotations and have practice on them. But the sheer number of factors you need to have in play for the ele makes it so much harder. Constant movement, above 90% hp, proper targeting of Wildfire, Lightning Orb and Phoenix, while staying in the wells, while picking up conjures (because if someone steals your conjure your dps gets hurt again), while minimizing your time outside of Air (because then you don’t cap your crit chance and your dps gets hurt again)…

On the other hand, the ranger simply has to flank in melee, follow a simple rotation and press F2 off cooldown.

NikeEU.7690:

I’m not convinced at all there is this huge skill gap required to beat ele benchmark dps vs engie vs ranger vs thief.

As I’ve always said, regardless of the role or class you’re playing the first 90 to 95% of benchmark numbers are easy for almost any player to get. It’s that last bit that takes work and its true for every class except maybe hammer guardian. And I do mean work, you have yo out in a lot of practice for that last bit and it does t matter if it’s an ele or a ranger.

If the easy part of the ranger potential is the first 90%, then the easy part of a tempest one is the first 70%. The difference is huge, unless you’re looking at D/W build, which is the only one having a simple rotation. I don’t have statistically significant amounts of data, but every player in my group performs better on a condi ranger than on ele. I seriously doubt anyone has “worked” more on the ranger. I certainly haven’t. The build is simply much, much easier. You can’t talk your way around this fact.

kdaddy.5431:

3) Broken HOT specs
Now ive been a big ranter about the specs because they have broken all of the game imo. But even in raids if there is a non-hot spec you prefer to play, you cant bring into raids. No one is posting the NO-HOT TEAM SET UP RAID CLEAR. They are posting broken aspects of the new HOT specs that allow the question of is that broken? The portal at the bottom of Gors? The mesmer shared boons? All of which are spammable because of HOT specs.

Um, what?!

You are aware the top dps classes, condi ranger and condi engi both do not run their elite spec at all, aren’t you?

It’s not exclusive to ele and I never said it was. But there’s a significant difference in the difficulty of different builds in the game. There are really easy ones and really complicated ones, as well as builds in between these. ALL of them produce pretty much the same numbers. And that’s a problem, because the harder a build is, the more likely you are to make mistakes and the more you lose from your damage potential. In the end, you’re not getting rewarded for picking and mastering something difficult. You’re punished.

The problem with having a decent overall off-meta composition is you need to have solid knowledge on the game mechanics, across all involved classes, to end up with one. It is simply easier and faster to stick with the meta. You don’t have to, but it works and it also somewhat reduces the potential for mistakes. Because this way at least pretty much anyone knows what to expect of any given profession/role in a raid.

AnariiUK.7409:

I don’t consider myself to play at a particularly high level, just regular guild groups. But for me it genuinely feels like anyone who spends more than a couple of hours learning a class is able to pull very respectable DPS with it, with the exception of Revenant. Things change for each encounter, but overall the balance feels pretty good right now.

I don’t have that feeling. I’ve been ele main since the game launched. And it feels genuinely disheartening to see myself perform on comparable (if not better) level on my condi ranger, despite the fact I have much less experience with it and despite putting a lot more effort when playing my ele. There’s just no reward for all this extra effort, except on KC. I imagine a lot of ele and engi mains feel the same way.

maddoctor.2738:

If the problem is that there will always be an optimal composition then how exactly are other games doing it?

By reducing or eliminating the unique features every profession has to offer.

AnariiUK.7409:

As for condi-ranger overperforming, I’m not sure I agree. Engis can be ~3k behind a condi-ranger and still be worth taking simply for Pinpoint distribution. Furthermore, a condi-Daredevil pulls way ahead of a condi-ranger in a mirror comp. Ele is still fantastic against large hitboxes (Samarog is a good example), and isn’t particularly difficult in the right hands. Overall the only time I’d argue we need condi rangers, is for weird comps like 8-1-1, where you don’t want to risk overwriting venoms.

Condi ranger is overperforming because it’s much more reliable, especially compared to power builds. Eles can still be great in the right hands, but on average they are far behind a condi ranger, even on large hitboxes. Ranger is just way easier to play. Now, condi thief and simplified engi rotations might be close to that, I don’t really have experience with either. But the extra you get from the optimal engi rotation is ridiculously small for the extra effort required.

maddoctor.2738:

Chronomancers, Druids and PS Warriors should be the targets, and not by nerfing them, but by allowing different builds to do what they do.

I just pointed out the problem of this idea in another thread – here

Rising Dusk.2408:

Feanor.2358:

No, they aren’t equally viable. Because in practice some builds lose more than others, due to a number of factors, aggregated in the term “difficulty”. Meaning in practice your average player on the easy build X outperforms your average player on the hard build Y by a fair margin. Meaning build Y is by no means “equally viable”. It is at best an acceptable pick if you’re pretty good at playing it. Or if your group has enough players on easy builds to carry you. Class diversity? Yeah, right.

You might be convinced that seems legit, but in reality even the condition engineer with an easy rotation can break 30k realistic dps. In practice, all of these builds are going to have problems that reduce dps slightly, but all builds are affected relatively equally. This could be the boss moving a lot, fight mechanics, or whatever. Even the condition necromancer build has an easy time landing inside its own chill fields if you place them offcenter on the boss, and it doesn’t even lose appreciable damage if you ‘miss’ and hit a fire (2k dps loss, 29k total) or ethereal (1k dps loss, 30k total) field every time.

Simply not true. Condi engi might have an easy rotation, but Sc/Wh ele doesn’t. Moreover, damage loss isn’t equal either, especially in a “power vs condi” comparison. Condi doesn’t lose 10% below 90% hp. It doesn’t lose 10% when you stop moving. It doesn’t lose efficiency when the target has more toughness.

There are other ways to lose damage, too. You play guard? Well, you need the target inside your symbols, tethered by your F1 and having retal on yourself. You play ele? Well, you need to be as close as possible for your Wildfire, but then you want to step back considerably for your Lightning Orb. On top of conjuring weapons and picking them up losing as little time as possible. And if that gets you out of your chrono’s wells, well, tough luck, you can only choose how to lose dps, not “if”.

In comparison, what does a ranger need to do? Stay in melee and flank. And you’re saying they all lose relatively equally? Yeah, right.

maddoctor.2738:

What needs to be changed is “looking for Druid” or “looking for Chrono” types of posts.
It needs to transform into “looking for Healer” or “looking for Support".

Bring the role not the specific profession.

How exactly? Druids are the best healer not just because of their healing – auramancer Tempest can compete there in fact – but because they also offer pretty strong group buffs. PS warriors are best not just because of the might generation, but because they also bring banners and they also contribute to dps. And mesmers… 100% quickness and alacrity are just too strong to pass.

And the thing is, it will always be more or less the same. You can change which professions fill certain slots, but there will always be an optimal composition, and there will always be optimal picks. And people will go for them, not for the second-best. Because, unless the second-best is pretty much a carbon-copy of the best, it will pretty much break the group.

Wolfric.9380:

and i would like more damage on focus.
I have an idea but might upset a lot of people ^^.

Swap staff eath 3 (magnetic aura) with focus 5 (obsidian flesh).
This would give staff a needed buff and make focus the aura weapon to go. Maybe focus would be a bit overloaded with missile defence then but i don´t think it´s bad.
Even not shure if focus will surive when loosing obsidian flesh but on the other side an aura more syergizes well.

I don’t like it. Focus is intended as a defensive offhand and it doesn’t make sense to have the best defensive weapon skill in ele’s kitten nal on another weapon. Staff becomes a non-aura weapon with a really strong defence in an attunement you really never want to be in.

vicious.5683:

Here is the solution: Give the whole group a big boon ONLY if you have all 9 classes in the squad and balance the bosses to that buff. This boon also applies to groups consisting of fewer than 10 people even if they don’t have all 9 professions.
This way no matter how crap Anet balance team is, it would be ALWAYS better to have class diversity in the squad than stacking multiple eles or whatever.

That’s a really terrible idea.

First, and foremost it’s VERY artificial. It has no connection to the game world, literally nothing to suggest or support such a mechanic. It breaks the immersion of the player in a pretty obvious way, and that’s simply an awful design.

Second, it’s also very bad balance. There’s also 5-man content. If you make the buff strong enough to actually count, you power-creep 10-man groups ridiculously and trivialize raids. If you nerf the classes accordingly, you ruin all the non-raid PvE content. So you’d have to buff raids to keep up. But then you’ve removed any illusion of potential squad comp diversity. You’ll always be forced to use 9 professions and one double.

So, to put it short – no.

Rising Dusk.2408:

zealex.9410:

Nerfing a class to be on par with what other classes that require similar skill do is not hurting class diversity its quite the opposite actually it promotes it even further.

Errrr… Maybe you haven’t checked the benchmarks lately? A lot of classes are sitting at the 31-33k level, and they’re all equally viable right now. Nerfing a class to not be in that range would be objectively classified as reducing class diversity.

No, they aren’t equally viable. Because in practice some builds lose more than others, due to a number of factors, aggregated in the term “difficulty”. Meaning in practice your average player on the easy build X outperforms your average player on the hard build Y by a fair margin. Meaning build Y is by no means “equally viable”. It is at best an acceptable pick if you’re pretty good at playing it. Or if your group has enough players on easy builds to carry you. Class diversity? Yeah, right.

Vinceman.4572:

Feanor.2358:

I don’t understand why experienced players would waste time on this, but apparently some do.

The thing is, you don’t waste time. Especially not in pugs. In pugs you gain time with that because you won’t have any downstate at all compared to other group composition where it’s most likely that one of your temp will go down several times or your mesmer has a bad rotation/not optimal gear or your ps is not able to hold 25 might stacks…because it’s pugs.
Don’t make necro so bad because you don’t like the class or the playstyle or the brainafk method behind it. Necro is in a good spot when putting “pugs” and “fractals” together in one sentence.

In the past. Since Nightmare was released I had very few bad pugs by just going for “cm+t4” power groups. So yeah, you definitely waste time doing the pug-proof meta.

WARIORSCHARGEING.2637:

Feanor.2358:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Shaogin.2679:

But nobody is answering my question! Is there really a dps meter available that accurately shows my dps and the dps of my team with my team having to consent to providing me this information in any way?

Yes it’s called BGDM, as others have posted in the thread, the consent is given by you using the Meter and joining a party or squad that uses it as well.

• and keeping its networking enabled. You can disable it and only use it to see your own performance. Personally, I think this is a pretty decent middle ground and I don’t think there’s any reason to complain about it.

but some of us here do think there is a very good reason to complain and not want
add ons in this game at all for this very easy and most simple reasons .

that is this the use of dps meters turns guild wars 2 into world of warcraft . and thus will only let in more add on junk to come to this game of guild wars 2 that will let hackers take over your acount and the game its self . and more

not only that but with the add ons being allowed in this game . it will bring other bad things like mounts and take way from the game even more

and doing all this will only fully drive more people away from this game then it has already done

Lots of statements, zero reasoning. You get points for doomsaying, but you don’t really expect to be taken seriously, do you?

OniGiri.9461:

If you read between the lines in my original post you’ll see the problem really is the laziness of the community.

Again, that’s not a problem. It’s a fact of life.

OniGiri.9461:

So what you are saying is the problem isnt some sort of “elitsm” because looking for an optimal and least frustrating way to do something is just human nature?

Yup. Although I wouldn’t call it a problem.

OniGiri.9461:

Isn’t the majority of players “non-elitists”? So why are you letting the minority of players dictate you how you should play?

If you want to raid with a 10-man-necro-squad you shouldn’t let “elitists” stop you.
Proof them wrong by clearing the content with the composition you want to play in.
Form groups, squads, LFGs, Discordgroups and organize it.

Activly shape the meta!

Nice theory you have here. However, in practice players just want to clear the bosses and you’ll have very hard time getting 9 other people to put the time and effort required for an off-meta kill. Of course, there will always be those who would sign up just for the fun of it. But they are going to be the very small minority. And you’ll have to spend much more time to organize such a group than you would for a meta comp.

Assuming you do it, you’ll end up spending more time and effort in both organization and gameplay. While the latter isn’t necessarily bad, the former is. And the rewards will be just the same. You won’t change the meta like that. Actually you won’t change it at all, no matter the approach, except if you’re on the balance team. Meta will always be the most efficient approach, usually “most efficient” meaning “fastest”. This is just how people play games.

In PvE Warhorn is by far the best offhand available. It has superior damage, decent breakbar damage, excellent soft CC and pretty cool utilities. Focus is viable in certain scenarios for Obsidian Flesh and Swirling Winds, but in general Warhorn is just so much better. Its problem for PvP/WvW is players do not cooperate. Warhorn’s heavy-damage attacks are easy to avoid.

MrPinks.2015:

also i was referring to this statement the guy made

“OW you can see who is responsible, and tell him he doesn’t meet your requirements (in a friendly manner of course). "

since it is very funny to me in a ironic way “in a friendly manner you dont meet our requirements”
our community is soooooooooooo friendly !

I fail to see the relevance to the dps meters. What’s the difference if you got kicked for low dps or for low LI count? Except the prior has at least some relevance to the game? People don’t want to play with just about anyone? Well, duh! That’s not something introduced recently, it’s been around for ages. Again, it doesn’t come from the tools, it comes from the people. You can’t change what the players want to and what they don’t want to do. You can’t enforce friendly attitude. Some will play with you and some won’t. Get over it.

thrag.9740:

As for the broader topic of whether or not difficult classes deserve higher maximum dps, I think we should consider who we are balancing for. Yes, it is true that a bad player will hit higher damage with a power thier or power engi, then they will with say a power ele. But this is a discussion about raids. Do we really want to balanced around bad players?

In the hands of a good player, their is no choice if some classes are inherently better than others. If every class was balanced to have the same maximum potential, good players could actually choose the classes they enjoy, rather than the classes with the most potential.

Would you honestly start opening raid LFGs with a title “pick the classes you like and join!”? And not just once, would you turn your raiding to this model? Unless you would, you don’t have the faith in the skills of the community you’re displaying with your suggestion.

Nobody cares if qT can pick classes for flavor (except qT, obviously), everybody is concerned with the performance of their own group. It doesn’t make any sense to balance on the behalf of such a small minority. It’s much better to give a much larger part of the active players a meaningful choice. Like I already explained.

Unfortunately it didn’t die. There are still groups out there lfg-ing for 4N1D, and even having requirements. I don’t understand why experienced players would waste time on this, but apparently some do.

Poelala.2830:

Feanor.2358:

Riiiight, because D/W is too complex and we need more autos.

no one plays d/wh…

In PvP maybe. In PvE, it still is pretty viable and I still prefer it on Matthias.

Tomiyou.3790:

What this class really needs:
- tempest needs more survivability when you don’t have healing power
- core ele needs straight up more damage

Boom, fixed ele. Let’s go.

Umm… What?!

We’re talking about raids here. PvP is irrelevant.

Astralporing.1957:

Feanor.2358:

“Meta” doesn’t mean “required”. It means optimal.

Not even that. “meta” means “it’s what people recommend”. Why something is recommended may change. In most cases it’s for best efficiency and clearing speed. In others it will be for making the run as easy as possible.

Making the run as easy as possible is also an optimization, just a different one. So this meta is also “optimal”, but in another sense. So… yeah, it does mean optimal, no matter how you’re looking at it.

But I was talking about experienced groups. For them it doesn’t make any sense to optimize something else over clear speed. You know you’ll clear the content, you’ve done it time and again, there’s no challenge there. Might as well just be efficient doing it.

Lonami.2987:

Don’t you think the combos between sequences and channels would compensate for that loss? At least attunement switch would serve a purpose other than just switching skills like an engineer.

Not really, no. The effect of this would be to create a few optimal combos which you need to use to maximize your dps. It’s just more clicking for the same effect. It will manage to make ele even harder to play, but more fun? Nope.

Attunements serve their function perfectly. They attune you to a single element, granting you skills associated with that element. It’s a perfect metaphor and it works like a charm. It’s by far the best elemental magic mechanic I’ve seen in a videogame.

FrostDraco.8306:

Fractals has never been about the meta, it’s always been about knowing the fight. The only place where dps actually matters is 100 CM for saix, and my power reaper can solo clear one by auto attacking…..in shroud.

That’s two separate things. Any experienced FotM player knows the mechanics by now. Sometimes some noob(s) show up, but that’s just the pug life.

Now, considering players know the mechanics, meta comp is vastly preferable. 25 might, fury, quickness and alacrity are just that good. Sure, you can clear the content without these. But why?

“Meta” doesn’t mean “required”. It means optimal. The optimal way to clear any 5-man content in this game is to take a standard raid subsquad. Period.

Riiiight, because D/W is too complex and we need more autos.

Coconut.7082:

Feanor.2358:

What I’m saying is that I’d address the issue by changing the dps output of different professions/builds rather than tweak their difficulty until it matches. Not only is it simpler to tweak the dps, it is also beneficial to have low-effort builds. Both for the less skilled players and for situations where you just want to have some relaxed fun in the game. They just need to be less competitive. More consistent, like they are now, but harder builds should clearly outclass them when played properly.

Hmm,
Tempest vs. Guardian/Thief (D/D at least)/Any other DPS pre-patch?
Engi/Ranger vs. Necro?

What you ask for already existed before.

Yes, but there wasn’t a reliable way to judge personal performance. Now that there is, players see the actual value of the low-effort, reliable builds. This, combined with the pretty tiny advantage you can possibly get for playing a much harder build push the latter in a severe disadvantage. There’s simply no point to choose it anymore.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Shaogin.2679:

But nobody is answering my question! Is there really a dps meter available that accurately shows my dps and the dps of my team with my team having to consent to providing me this information in any way?

Yes it’s called BGDM, as others have posted in the thread, the consent is given by you using the Meter and joining a party or squad that uses it as well.

• and keeping its networking enabled. You can disable it and only use it to see your own performance. Personally, I think this is a pretty decent middle ground and I don’t think there’s any reason to complain about it.

zealex.9410:

You might say that but its not ok to be top dps so easily with such low effort

I agree. What I’m saying is that I’d address the issue by changing the dps output of different professions/builds rather than tweak their difficulty until it matches. Not only is it simpler to tweak the dps, it is also beneficial to have low-effort builds. Both for the less skilled players and for situations where you just want to have some relaxed fun in the game. They just need to be less competitive. More consistent, like they are now, but harder builds should clearly outclass them when played properly.

BlooDyliCious.5824:

Somebody said an out of combat speed boost. Seriously though, an out of combat, PvE only speed boost while wielding a legendary would be great. It wouldn’t be game breaking because some classes have perma swiftness anyway. It’s just to help some classes that don’t have a 25% speed trait/sigil, like a guard to get around a bit faster.

It is still advantage in the game mechanics, if only for some classes. Nah. GW2 has this beautiful concept of giving mechanics relatively easy and making you work for cosmetics. It’s really great. It doesn’t make you feel like you should spend hundreds of hours just to finally be able to play the game like it’s meant to. Yet it does give you long-term goals to work for, which are rewarding on their own.

vesica tempestas.1563:

it happened before ofc, However it will certainly happen more with meters for the wrong reasons, e.g drama, impatience, bullying, insecure or inexperienced leaders driving wrong behaviors. Then there is misinterpretation of the stats i.e someone has top dps, but actually causes massive disruption on the fight due to the pressure he puts on other players, or a kid with no experience who sees a number but fails to read the group dynamics. Still raiders are used to it, winning at meters is part of the psyche, so as long as it doesn’t bleed into other areas then i guess its a necessary evil.

Personally i think the root cause of this conflict is the evolution of group orientated dungeons that derived from rpg roots to the modern competitive dps race style of dungeon. The worry for me is that this will grow out of control and turn into a wow like selfish cesspit. Most play games to relax, not deal with this kind of drama.

I disagree. Drama an impatience have always been there. If anything, dps meters filter out a lot of wrong reasons, like LI, AP and similar arbitrary measures of performance. Are meters going to put more emphasis on reaching certain numbers, buff times, etc.? Perhaps. Perhaps not. In the end, what matters is to get a smooth kill. Numbers are only looked at when this doesn’t happen and there’s a problem.

I fail to see how having a way to identify and address the problem would promote more toxicity. Without it the same people would just blindly throw accusations and flame people for irrelevant stuff.

You have to realize this is people’s issue, not a tool’s one. And that people won’t change. If you want a less toxic environment, then dps meters are actually a good thing for you, too. See someone bully another player because of numbers? Just kick him or quit. Problem solved and you avoided a toxic player.

Aurelian Omenkind.2470:

However, I’m vastly in favor of rewarding the massive effort and expense of creating a legendary

It is rewarding already. I should know, in the last year I made myself 4 and sold 5 more.

What you propose is to introduce a vast amount of power grind. Just… no. It’s the worst thing in virtually all ARPGs out there and I cannot even begin to express how happy I am GW2 has almost none of this kitten.

MrPinks.2015:

let me sum this up for people who did not understand

There was no way before to see how we can kick people out
now we do !
“in a friendly way ofc !”

So how exactly did people get kicked out before? Because they did, I guarantee it.