I specialize in DS.
I definitely wouldn’t use dagger for a DS build unless you are using it to build lifeforce quickly or building something other than a pure DS build.
In order of damage when using Lifeblast:
1) Axe with Axe Training (Highest LB)
2) Staff (10% less damage than Axe+Training)
3) Dagger (20% less damage than Axe+Training)
In order of damage using DS#4 and DS#5 (Because they use the offhand to calculate damage)
1) Staff (best by 10%)
2) All other weapons
Devs were initially really cautious with giving us lifeforce. But it seems to me like over time they’ve recognised that DS isn’t some crazy overpowered form, but just a way to do mid-tier dps.
A key problem with DS-spilling is that not only do large hits take us out of DS, but hit us way into our HP (if not killing us).
Whenever that happens, Necros now have to spend time healing their health, and then spend time “healing” DS by using lifeforce regen skills (and not dps’ing) just to get back into DS to do mid-tier dps.
The bloodthirst thing is a whole other can of worms.
Because bloodthirst exists, all siphon skills have to balanced around that trait. Which means that siphons are completely terrible for anyone who doesn’t have it (and are terrible anyway).
You know there’s an issue when consumable food gives you a much better siphon than any Necro one.
And then there’s the issue of siphons not working in DS. Necros must be the only profession that has two completely incompatible skill trees.
Yup! And it’s important to note that it’s a block in DS – where Necros are limited to 5 skills.
It’s not like Necros can use mobility skills or heals or anything else while in DS.
Devs are we on the right track somewhere in here?
Or even on the track?
I’ve lost the track.
Okay that would make a difference!
^ The problem with the current implementation of the passive ‘when hit’ is that it’s only really okayish if you are taking small hits spaced out in perfect timing with the ICD.
- If you are taking lots of small hits e.g. 20 × 200 (= 4000 damage) the ICD means you will be healed for 325hp once. A net loss of 3675 health.
- If you take one large hit e.g. for 5000 (very common) will only be healed for 325hp once. A net loss of 4675 health.
Now lets compare the same situation with the necro heal Consume Conditions.
- 4000 damage from small hits – Consume Conditions heals for 5,240 – a net gain of 1240 health.
- 5000 damage in one hit, Consume Conditions heals for 5240 – a net gain of 675 heath.
So even when being ping ponged around, taking one large heal is significantly better than taking signet of vampirism.
Have a read of the posting guidelines before posting
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/balance/Posting-Guidelines/first#post3476816
I see you followed the “be concise” one, but maybe have a look at the others “give examples” and “be constructive”.
^ I think changing the passive to heal on hit would be the ideal solution that every Necro would love and it completely fits with Necro lore and even the skill name.
It probably wouldn’t take much dev work either as it’s already in the game.
And it still wouldn’t be as good as warrior’s heal signet which is a guaranteed heal every second.
I would be really interested in what the philosophy behind this skill was.
I suspect it was to provide Necros with a tool for heading towards more of an attrition class. But somehow it didn’t quite work.
^ I guess the key point is that DS spill blocking allowed us to mitigate those epic 50,000 damage hits that PvE bosses love to do. All other classes have a way to do this.
Giving us 50,001 lifeforce is unrealistic and massively unbalanced, so giving us back the ability to block one single hit is much preferred.
Note too that Zerker is encouraged by world boss DPS timers.
DPS timers make complete sense in MMO’s where devs wish to limit progression towards those who have managed to acquire high dps gear in the current tier of content.
However, boss timers make ZERO sense in GW2 where you can jump into Zerker gear and do max damage straight away. It only encourages using Zerker or finding a lot more people to attend.
Seriously, you would need a lot more people to do Teq if half the attendees wore non-zerker gear.
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How is DS damage spilling OP?
Most other classes have a mechanic they can sit in and be completely invincible while they heal up and get ready for the fight again.
DS spilling is nowhere near this. Necros can’t heal at all in DS, and it just means one single attack, even if only 100 damage will be blocked instead of spilling over into the HP pool. And this attack will still take DS away.
Great post, but you would have more success in getting real changes if you post the same here:
Haha
Yeah we have a millions threads that detail all the problems with VampSig in here, but I suspect devs aren’t allowed to post in class forums.
I figure with the new forum we might actually have a chance of a dev reading some of our ideas/concerns and getting some real feedback.
Note that zero Necros use signet of vampirism because it’s absolutely terrible.
^ Oh man that was embarrassing. I was so excited loading the video to see our new heal skill.
Every other class got about 5-10 mins of coverage by the devs who were clearly proud and excited themselves.
Then it came to the necro part:
- The Necro runs up to the Golem.
- Floored in 5 seconds flat.
- The devs say nothing and hurredly skip to the active part.
- A 5k heal is demoed and the devs talk about how easy it is to interrupt/stop the necro from healing at all (all Necros watching immediately notice that existing heals do more healing and cooldown faster)
Okay guys now on to the next class!
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Thread necro!
But I am a Necromancer :P
Anyway just wanted to point out that we’ve started a thread in the balance forum and it would be worthwhile posting the best points from this comprehensive thread if we want changes made.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/balance/PvX-Necromancer-Signet-of-Vampirism
^ yup, I’m full DS and would never consider taking Speed of Shadows. Every other option is just better.
It’s bad enough that signet of the locust (passive +25% speed) doesn’t work in DS. It means you need to take a talent AND a signet to get +25% in both.
If we really have to have a speed-related talent there a much better option would be for speed of shadows to give swiftness. That way it would be useful for DS flashers too (i.e. dagger users could go in and out of DS quickly to get swiftness.)
We should probably move the siphoned power discussion to the profession balance forum.
Necros really need this for PvE – we’re one of the few classes that doesn’t have any way to block insta-kill moves aside from dodging.
If falling damage is a concern, just implement it in a way that will block all damage apart from falling damage.
However, I can’t see that stopping falling damage is a big concern. A dev has already said that using spectral walk to avoid falling damage is fine (I can find the link if needed).
Devs have said we are supposed to be an attrition class – if so then please give us the tools to do so! Our new healing skill was worse than every other healing skill in the game, and noone uses it.
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Yup the Necro community ran the numbers when it came out and the new heal is significantly worse than all other Necro heals.
It’s a completely pointless skill – which is really sad because the new skills were supposed to be exciting new content and a nice Xmas present.
Devs please check the stats and see how many Necros have this in their heal slot.
It’s a shame both for the players and for the devs who worked to develop this! I’m sure everyone wants the skill to be useful!
If conditions are not fixed retroactively (i.e. across all previous content), then creating new mobs vulnerable to condition will just make me sad.
It won’t be worth speccing into condition for a few new mobs if we are severely limited in groups in the entire rest of the game.
The same old situation occurs.
- Bring 5 direct damage and everyone does 100% of their solo damage.
- Bring 5 condition specs and everyone is limited to 20% of their solo damage (as everyone can hit the 25 condition cap solo).
Anet devs please remember that half of Necromancer skills are tuned toward conditions.
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This has the potential to be a really bad exploit.
I wonder if this could be reproduced by getting an ele to conjurer weapons and then getting a group of people to try picking one up all at once?
I would hate to see a group of Warriors, Engis and Necros with their ‘Aoe on roll’ skills coming through with infinite roll.
isn’t just lag?
Definitely not, when it occurs I can happily chat away with other people and do everything else just fine, and the battle rages on around me while I can’t attack or use any skill at all.
The only way to fix it, is to get downed, waypoint away, or relog.
This happens when you attempt to pick up a bundle item and it disappears while you’re picking it up. There may be other causes, but this is the one I’ve noticed. This is particularly common since most people have AoE loot on interact enabled and often end up picking up banners or conjure weapons by mistake because of it.
It’s quite possible that’s the cause. I use Aoe looting and it has always happened to me in the middle of zerg open world boss fights or zerg guild missions.
Wow I had no idea it gives infinite dodge. That makes this bug so much more critical.
Necros could use the talent that drops an aoe mark when dodging and roll around for insane aoe damage.
:( now that it’s known i hope it doesnt get fixed….
It’s always been known.
It’s not a bug – it’s just how the game works. It doesn’t really give you any advantage at all.
I supposed you could save all your bags until 80 in the hope that they might have a precursor, but it’s just as easy (if not easier) getting the same bags when you’re level 80 as you have all your talents and skills.
Quite frequently I’ll be in the middle of a fight and then suddenly none of my skills will work.
I can select them, and the UI displays a ‘button click’ animation. But nothing happens. All of them just stop working.
The only way to get them working again is to get downed and rezzed, waypoint to somewhere, or to relog.
This is apparently really common for other people too – to the point where I’ll say in chat “argh my skills aren’t working” and whoever I’m with will reply “Oh I hate that bug – so annoying – just try to get downed and that will fix it”.
And it is massively annoying as it usually happens for me in the middle of a boss fight or guild event where my non-participation earns me a bronze instead of gold.
You forgot that composition is a thing. Composition isn’t skill.
Oh it’s not me forgetting, it’s Anet.
But anyway, equal access to gear was the big thing in GW1.
Too bad class balance has somehow gone out the window in GW2.
Man some of these comments are hilarious.
But anyway, what the “skill” thing was trying to say is that everyone has the same access to the same gear – so the person who wins in a fight is theoretically more skilled.
This is opposed to other MMOs – where having ‘epic’ or ‘legendary’ gear will make you do 3 x more damage and no matter how skilled someone is, you can insta-kill them if you are more geared.
Yeah the “best” is extremely subjective.
Spoj’s shroud flashing dagger build is probably the highest PvE dps, however, if you are any of the following:
- lazy
- can’t manage complex skill rotations
- dont have the best ping
- not very good at avoiding damage in melee range
- prefer ranged combat
…then a DS autoattack spam build might be more effective.
^ So how did the-game-that-shall-not-be-named address that?
Yeah I should have mentioned a range increase would be needed for Axe too.
I would hate for staff to be our ranged power weapon.
Staff 2-5 are all conditions. There’s currently quite a few open world bosses you need to range at some stage… and it’s not fun just auto-attacking with staff because 2-5 are all marks that won’t trigger at all on structure bosses.
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I guess part of the problem is that it’s not just the cap that’s the problem.
Lots of bosses cleanse all conditions in PvE – which means all of them would need to change. Same with structure-type bosses.
And all those people saying ‘structures don’t bleed’ … gah most of the direct weapon damage doesn’t make sense either. If that’s the case then your swords should break in half when you stab a stone golem.
Axe Auto needs work. More damage/faster/added effect/etc.
Dark Pact needs work on dagger. Longer range/faster cast/more damage.Won’t happen. Axe was designed as a vulnerability (condition) application tool meant to be used with minions or allies.
But it’s actually the best power weapon for DS Necros.
Axe + Axe Training is the highest dps for LifeBlast spam.
It feels silly to be doing high power damage in DS, then come out of DS and do high power damage with Axe#2, and then have pitiful Axe#1 vuln application until the cooldowns are back up.
(of course the downtime is used for other stuff like wells etc)
Imo the Vunerability application should be moved to staff auto. Staff 2-5 apply conditions anyway, and synergise better with minions given staff#2 can heal them.
Then maybe Axe could buffed with cleave like the power weapon it is.
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^ At least that way condition players could do 100% of the damage they could do when soloing while in groups!
If they can’t fix it, a lot of Necro skills and talents need updates.
Half of the necro class in built around conditions – it’s like they designed the class for a different game where conditions were uncapped.
With Anet seemingly missing all the awesome and constructive suggestion threads lately, it makes me wonder if we are on the wrong track and should be suggesting adding more selfish utility and less group support to the Necromancer.
Therefore I suggest the following changes:
Plague Signet – the passive now transfers conditions from you to your allies.
Blood is Power – changed ‘bleed yourself’ to ‘bleed your allies’ to gain might.
Anyone have any other changes?
(Recent highlight suggestion threads if any devs are reading:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/necromancer/Merged-Signet-of-Vampirism-and-related-changes/page/14#post3381854
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/necromancer/Compilation-New-Death-Magic-Minor-Ideas/first#post3393358
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/necromancer/Healing-in-DS-please/first#post3310143
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/necromancer/Suggestions-on-making-us-PvE-viable/first#post3398714)
Good changes. Especially given they are just tweaks to existing stuff – and not totally unrealistic overhauls.
There are many things that wouldnt work in ds. The most important are healing, rezzing and stomping.
I’ve added that to the bug thread too.
Stomping does work in DS for watchwork enemies.
Another DS bug to add to the list:
Stomp/Rez aren’t working properly. In fact the only enemy that can consistently be stomped in DS are watchwork ones.
Noone has ever said heals not working in DS is as intended.
As I mentioned, there’s no tooltips to say this, and there’s ton of tooltips that say we should be healed (i.e. Regeneration Boon, Allied healing skills etc).
People I’m grouped with actually get mad when their healing skills don’t heal me when I’m in DS because they have invested traits and have healing gear and it doesn’t heal.
I mentioned the no healing as a bug in the bug forum.
It’s incredibly buggy that heals don’t work from siphons, boons, allies etc and there’s no tooltip anywhere to say that this is the correct behavior.
e.g. healing skills just say “heals allies for x amount” .. do we stop being an ally when in DS?
Feel free to join in https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/support/bugs/Necro-bug-list/first#post3394137
Can I please emphasize what a massive game-breaking bug it is for Necromancers that heals don’t work at all from siphons, boons, allies etc in Deathshroud and there’s no tooltip anywhere to say that this is the correct behavior.
e.g. healing skills just say “heals allies for x amount” .. do we stop being an ally when in DS?
e.g.2 all other boons work fine in DS, but regeneration just ends before it’s timer says it should.
If that was the case then they could at least communicate that with us.
Then we could turn out attention to alternatives, like a talent that heals us to full on exiting DS if our health isn’t at 100%, but has a really long cooldown (just a random example from the top of my head).
Allowing healing in DS would be a fix for both Necro attrition AND the fact that the blood tree is completely useless/pointless unless you’re a minonmancer (and it’s not even a minion tree – minonmancers actually skip minion talents just to get Vampiric Master).
Siphon healing in DS wouldn’t even siphon that much! LB is an extremely slow attack, and DS #4 is on a long cooldown.
Most of these issues still exist. Actually all except one (the putrid mark one – which had a tooltip update to say it doesn’t remove from allies anymore).
The following are especially annoying:
- 3 second cooldown for utilities when leaving DS.
- Lich form doesn’t remember what skill is on auto.
- DS is bugged in that siphons, boons and allied healing skills don’t heal health in DS. Which basically means an entire talent tree is locked out in DS.
I have always felt that a Necro should help his party by weakening the enemies they are fighting.
Area Weakness, area chills, cripples, blinds, etc.
The only problem with this is that many times, other classes can do these things just as well as we can for some reason. Also, most bosses are immune to these effects, or greatly reduce them.
Me too. The fact only some classes get boon-support ability, but everyone gets condition-support is so disappointing – it destroys a really nice niche for Necro.
In GW1 we also had a lot of unique boons we could cast on the tank that would keep them alive or do serious ‘on-hit’ damage, or the healer that would give more energy. However, with no tanks at all, this support has vanished from the game too.
Yup 100% with you.
And pretty much everyone else is too
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/necromancer/Healing-in-DS-please/first#post3310143
Most other classes have a bunch of invincibility skills they can sit in to heal. And with so many skills and talents to do with healing, it’s ridiculous that our core class mechanic locks us out of them.
DS is NOT like other transforms. It’s our class mechanic and there’s an entire tree, not to mention other talents in other trees to do with enhancing DS and the ability to stay in DS.
It’s crazy that we can’t siphon, receive group heals or benefit from regen boons.
I wouldn’t worry about group healing at all. No other classes are balanced around the ability of other classes to heal them.
You can choose not to view minion names in the options…