Guild Wars 2

sorrow.2364:

’cause in those 15v15 matchups nobody is going to use AoE stuns/daze, like Earthshaker, Wail of Doom, Chaos Storm and Static Field, right?
So it is only a hearsay that in WvWvW hammer trains are fairly popular.

Gorefiend.9675:

Runes of Perplexity fit in so well with teams because there does not exist a way for you to reliably get the confusion to proc AoE. It is impossible to spam that level of confusion on an entire group. The amount of AoE abilities that proc confusion that are not nullified by stability pales in comparison to that of single target. Add onto that the amount of natural condi removal a good frontline will have the runes are not at all overpowered. That rune would best be used on the role of counter periphery.

Not only stability as well; there are also large amounts of blind being thrown about. If you watched the video, remember when the necros called out their plague form? That means they are sitting in the opponents frontline spamming blind making them swing at air.

Leuca.5732:

Because the amount of efficacy you get for the minor monetary investment completely determines your output in PvE/WvW. Nevermind the fact that adding a money sink to PvE/WvW balance mechanisms is a terrible idea; their effects are just too strong for what they are actually affecting. 40% condition duration wouldn’t be as game-changing if conditions weren’t the strongest form of damage (per stat point invested) in the game.

Remember, I am only arguing for 15v15. I have a feeling you are looking at this through a very broad lens. Anyways, you kind of argued both sides of the coin for half of your first point. Your first sentence states that the monetary investment is too small for what you get but the second argues that it should not cost anything. You also state, I believe, that the food determines how you play in wvw? That does not make much sense to be honest because if you spec as a condi player you would either choose the food that buffs your condi damage or the food that buffs your survivability. Nobody goes around building a spec around food.

For your second point, if the opponents is going heavy into conditions with +40% then throw on the -40% condi duration food. It literally does not get any more balanced than that. In a 15v15 scenerio to go heavy into condi pressure you would have to take a risk and sacrifice valuable frontline. That would mean two things, first your opponent would be able to ignore your frontline and directly attack your condi pressure players and second, there would be minimal boons being thrown around (especially stability) so if your condi pressure players get caught they will likely die. It would be a game decided by whether the condi group is better at kiting or the balanced/melee heavy group is better at catching.

Empathetic Fighter.2065:

I don’t have problems with you to 15v15 around. But stop calling things like food-buff or RoP “balanced”. You totally attract negative comments with statements like these.

Unless you will backup your statement that food-buffs are not balanced with reasoning, I suggest you don’t make that claim.

sorrow.2364:

Have I just read that Runes of Perplexity are not broken?

1v1 yes they are broken. We are talking about 15v15 though.

Leuca.5732:

Being able to double click for +40% condition duration is broken. You don’t even get that bonus by maxing out a traitline. And that’s just one example.

Runes of Perplexity fit in so well with teams because they’re broken. It’s like taking a confusion on interrupt and multiplying it by 5 for each person who has the rune. The only thing keeping it from decimating entire mobs is the aoe limit, but that’s not enough of a balancing factor.

So you don’t really care about the buffs the food brings but rather the method you go about obtaining it. Never mind that the food buffs are all actually balanced within themselves. Just your problem with them is how you obtain that buff? Seems pretty petty to me.

Runes of Perplexity fit in so well with teams because there does not exist a way for you to reliably get the confusion to proc AoE. It is impossible to spam that level of confusion on an entire group. The amount of AoE abilities that proc confusion that are not nullified by stability pales in comparison to that of single target. Add onto that the amount of natural condi removal a good frontline will have the runes are not at all overpowered. That rune would best be used on the role of counter periphery.

Leuca.5732:

Nothing comes close to the diversity of builds and group setups you can bring to a siege zerg.

This is a terrible line of reasoning because PvE equipment has no balance checks whatsoever, leaving you with things like Rune of Perplexity and rampant food buffs.

Just wondering but what is wrong with food buffs? It adds another level of choice for someone to make. Choice is always good. I always run around with 7 or so different food buffs that I can change to depending on which group I am fighting. That is another level of diversity that I rather enjoy.

Rune of perplexity is indeed overpowered in 1v1’s. I am not arguing for 1v1s though, I am arguing for 15v15s and there perplexity actually fits in rather nicely.

Excalibur.9748:

sPvP balance is trash but still 100x better than GvG balance

Nothing comes close to the diversity of builds and group setups you can bring to 15v15’s

Brando.1374:

My Idea’s to bring more ppl to Spvp
1 - to get the general PVE crowd in create a new custom area/matchmaking to allow their gear/skills and stats to remain the same as if they where in pve/wvw. – why? No one wants to go into spvp looking like a noob and having to rebuild a simi decent class.
Current Spvp players will be able to use their glory to get PVE stat gear to compensate for this since we all hate to PVE but some choose to do it anyway
2 - create a GvG ladder with the above matchmaking but make it TDM to attract the many wvw guilds that actively look for fights instead of capping points. this can range from 5v5 to 15v15 and each should have its own ladder.
3 – Make Spvp rewards mean something outside of the mist. make Unique weapons/back piece for tournament wins, create Spvp legendary weapons to show off how pro you are in Spvp compared to the PVE crowd

IDK just a few ideas off the top of my head.

Those two ideas alone will make the SPvP crowd explode, especially idea 2. The biggest problem, in my opinion, plaguing SPvP from grabbing people is the fact that it is a chore to even get started. To not get completely stomped on the field you have to learn an new meta and then completely re-gear you character using gearing methods that are entirely foreign to what you have previously learned.

Your average MMO players habit will be to occasionally hop into PvP for an hour or so to mess around then head back to PvE. That average MMO player will choose to stay in PvE than bother with the hassle of getting setup to even start pvping. To put it simply, they just want to be able to hop in then hop out without doing anything else.

FirstBlood.7359:

The problem with 15 vs. 15 Deathmatch is obvious: The game is not built for it. With skill effects of 30 players cluttering your screen the dodge mechanic becomes meaningless. Especially in melee trains it is impossible to indentify animations and single spells.

As said earlier, the clutter is a problem even for the 5v5 SPvP matches.

FirstBlood.7359:

Further, with the AoE cap you cannot reliably target inidividuals. In the GvG clusterkitten your AoE spells hit randomly five people in the area.

Except both Ark, GF, and multiple other guilds use strategies that involve targeting specific individuals for 15v15.

FirstBlood.7359:

The worst thing: your individual skill does not matter. In sPvP you sometimes see great gameplay by an individual that impacts the entire match, Teldo’s 1v2 at PAX for example. In GvG, however, the influence of a single individual on the outcome of a fight is minimal.

There is a phrase for someone without personal skill in 15v15 type of fights. They are called “Rally Bots” and having one alone is enough to cause a loss against an otherwise evenly matched opponent.

For an example to counter your personal skill point, lets talk about a staff ele’s role:

Positioning:
The staff ele needs to maintain enough distance from the enemys frontline as to avoid getting quickly singled out and killed (eles won’t last more than 2 seconds in that kind of heat). At the exact same time, the eles need to make sure they are close enough to your friendly frontline so that if a “regroup” (regroups take at most 4-5 seconds) is called or you are getting singled out by counter-classes, it only takes a second to re-gather on the frontline leader.

Spell usage:
Staff Ele is a groups primary source of combo fields. The ele needs to make sure to time out his/her fields with, usually, the second ele in the group so as to never overlap them. All combo fields need to be placed in spots where the battle will linger so as to make best use of it. Re-watch the GF vs Ark video and see just how hard that can be with the fast moving pace of the battlefield.

On the offensive part of spell usage, the staff ele needs to be constantly applying pressure to the enemy to not allow the enemy safe and fast re-groups. The most important spell being meteor shower as a well place meteor shower (one that is placed on top of a lingering group in battle) will set the enemy on the backfoot. Also realize a well placed meteor shower will take off about 9k health from the ele through retaliation alone so proper positioning means the difference between life and insta-gib.

That is the overall role of the staff ele alone. If you want even more examples of individual skill, often times groups will employ “periphery counters” which is basically someone or a group of someones whose main responsibility is to single out low health and backline individuals to quickly take them down. If you are being singled out, you need to have the knowledge of each classes abilities to know what to dodge and when. In that sense, you need to have knowledge of 1v1,2,3 to be able to effectively fill the role of staff ele. That level of awareness needs to happen all the while keeping up with the previous three paragraphs of role explanation during the entire fight.

With that knowledge in mind, re-watch the example video and just see how those play into that group setting.

note: I chose the staff ele to explain not because it takes the most skill, every other class will have equally long role explanations, but rather because it is the role I know the most.

NevirSayDie.6235:

There were a couple of staff eles that were built power/enough other stats to stay alive and still deal damage. Hammer trains=PTV and maybe a bit of other stuff. Necro=dire or maybe zerker bomber/ds is viable, I don’t know. Guardians=soldier/cleric mix.

In the MLG tourney tonight, there was a zerker rifle engi running slick shoes; another engi running three kits; rangers; a d/p thief; a zerker guardian; a sword/warhorn/mace/shield warrior; and many others that I can’t remember. Are any of those even possible in GvG? Feel free to correct me if I’m wrong, it looks fun and all but I’m just not convinced there’s anything like the depth of a tournament.

EP runs an Engi, though not sure what type. TW runs a backline rifle warrior. Some guilds run a very light hammer train and focus more on backline dps. While others go all in with the frontline and leave a bare minimum backline crew. Some guilds run a periphery counter squad of varying sizes that run on the DPS side. The variety for this type of gameplay is unmatched to any other game mode.

Specifically on your point of running zerker. A person with a mixture gear set/build in pve will out-burst a zerker gear set/build in spvp.

note: In pve/wvw, you are not pigeonholed into being either bunker or zerker. There is an entire spectrum inbetween you can work with and still be viable.

Leuca.5732:

Untrained? The explosion of skill effects that comes from just 5 people is more than enough to warrant animations being toned down. You have either skills that fill the screen with effects or skills that have really bad telegraphing. It’s a horrible combination and 15 v 15 has no chance if animations don’t get toned down.

You know, I would have agreed with you had it not been for Sacrex shoutcasting a fight between Second Law and Seventh Legion. He had managed to catch several crucial ground effects that I, and I presume most others, had missed. Though, I still agree that skill effects need to be toned down.

ensoriki.5789:

I tried to watch the video but it was a complete mess of stuff going on. Like the game on a cohesive understandable level does not scale for 15v15.
Like I’ve play Planet side 2, and it can have way more players duking it out then that, but it’s never that unreadable. It was straight messy. It sounds like you guys are communicating but I couldn’t even watch the full thing it was so messy, like everything that is groaned about in SPvP multiplied 3 times if not more.

GW2 just has that much Flash. If Anets vision of PvP is being that messy man they need some glasses.

That is a complaint not only thrown out for 15v15 but even the tournament pvp that happened today.

-To the untrained eye, everything in gw2 is a mess.

style.6173:

and no. Do NOT put 15v15 into PvP. There is more strategy involved and is better suited as a WvW gamemode.

15v15 can work in SPvP if Anet would bring in the same gearing options that exists in general play. That is, in my opinion, one of the big points that is holding back SPvP in general. The pve style gearing creates the mentality that when you make your build, it is YOUR build and for most players that is huge.

NevirSayDie.6235:

It was an interesting fight. I think Anet hasn’t taken warmly to GvG because of the limited role variety, and also that they know how imbalanced PvE gear/buffs are.

Don’t know if you watched the MLG tournament tonight, but one of the good things that is different about traditional tPvP is that turnarounds happen all the time. GvG definitely looks intense, but as you say, once you finish 1-2 people it’s over.

Turnarounds are not only in the current sPvP. I will throw back to an EP vs Agg fight were EP pulled it off after dropping 3 or 4 players while Agg had lost none. What happened was EP had a lax moment in the beginning that cost them those players but they were able to pull together and then outplay Agg to grab the victory.

Excalibur.9748:

GvG is incredibly unbalanced, half the classes are useless. But I guess ANET can try to fix the 4 classes that are useless right now…

The only class that could possibly say they are useless would be ranger. Every other class can be useful depending on how you organize your comp.

note: There is a completely separate part section of our 15man comp that you can not see that performs a completely different role than what the main group does.

As the title alluded to, this will be my case to explain how 15v15 deathmatch is the pvp game mode that ArenaNet unknowingly created Guildwars2 for. This is not to put any other scenarios down but rather show how the 15v15 game mode fits perfectly into ArenaNet’s vision of pvp.

1 – Pillars of GuildWars 2 group combat

a) Fast action combat: While not necessarily revolutionary, ArenaNet’s implementation of this style of combat is by far the best I have experienced. The mix of abilities that allow for fast closure or escape combined with a near perfect mix of rooting and non-rooting abilities enables an extremely high skill cap for group mobility. Those who can move together the quickest have the upper hand in combat.

b) Combo Fields: From launch, Combo Fields have been ArenaNet’s main pillar to highlight group combat. The intent is to have the team who can make the best use of combo fields and finishers come out with the victory.

c) Last Chance Revive “Downstate”: With two teams of equal competence in fast action combat and combo fields the victor will come down to which team can get those first few opponents killed. The team with the better ability to revive their players will be the victor.

2 – The case for 15v15 Deathmatch

Below is an example of a fight between GF and Ark that highlights how the 15v15 format puts all pillars up front and center in importance. Notice the speed which the combat zone moves around the field, the usage of combo fields, and how vital those few revive are for victory.

There are also problems with SPvP design that I feel only harm the scene overall but that is another argument for another thread.

1 orb bonus is the same as a food buff for an ele.

Evalana.5480:

Gorefiend.9675:

I am now accepting donations of any amount for an industrial pacifier for the guild [Ark].

Not crying at all – just simply attempting to goad you out from behind your arrowcarts/ballista/walls to FIGHT…

Those skills you are given when you make your character? They are given to you to use in all aspects of the game, not just PvE – your 1-4 skills work great even when not equipping an arrowcart – just saying…
Pls fight us…

shhhhh shhhhh don’t worry, we should have that pacifier soon.

I am now accepting donations of any amount for an industrial pacifier for the guild [Ark].

EFWinters.5421:

I only brought it up because you said EB never goes open field unless they have a map queue behind him

Even on reset there were no queue’s for Ehmry on any map including eternal.

GvG is not dead. Organize control of the orbs and go at it.

Boonprot.6274:

GH is probably one of the most siege-happy guilds I’ve ever run into. Have yet to see EBay fight open-field unless they outnumber the opposing force at least 2:1.

I suggest taking a few deep breaths. Maybe some yoga, gotta watch that blood pressure.

For your pleasure, GF’s fight on Thursday against Agg! Staff Ele perspective.

GF Elementalist PoV of Thursday’s gvg with Agg. Enjoy

GF elementalist perspective

For your entertainment, GF vs Ark

Easily the toughest fight we have had so far. Fantastic job Ark.

Evalana.5480:

Posted – see above

Just curious, is this the “40” man?

Comprissent.3856:

40 man EB siege creeping on our 17 man

lol

If you are going to claim a 40 man siege creep you might want to post a picture that actually shows 40 people siege creeping instead of a screenshot of 15 people.

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Noodica.5428:

Outnumbered them you say.. you need to practice on your counting.. they had the other half of the zerg in the camp fighting the rest of our group while [MM] dropped down with like 15 and whiped the rest.. (and if you noticed half of them ran away to hills)

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What were the results of the late night gvg’s?

tiramisu.8706:

We’ve merged with NS.

My condolences.

Hexxed.8023:

Exactly. Shows you claim using non guildies, spectators, and pugs in a GvG is acceptable practice. Thank you for posting the full photo!

You are an embarrassment to GvG. Please get your kitten in order before showing your head again.

KStudios.2850:

Lets not forget the ongoing event. I see tons of our regulars in there.

Eh, that will hurt each server basically identically.

nikkistar.1409:

population has significantly decreased since our last match up.

Sigmar.2185:

Ehmrybay can’t support the idea Borlis Pass defend properly. Since [Rekz] guild and some fairweathers transferrer from EB, they want it soft to camouflage their lack of important guilds.

Ooh. what a jewel to wake up to. Just to let you know, Ehmry Bay is not hurting NA Prime (when rekz played). You guys were useful, but by no means the “backbone” of our server. Our biggest loss was actually VS. As KStudios said, VS took 30 of their players elsewhere. While 30 may not seem like a lot, it was 30 players during a timeslot where there may only be 60 players between all the maps.

Josh XT.6053:

Those two guilds combined, which seem to always be together have 60+ most of the time between the two of them.

The only time there will be a 60 person combined force is at the beginning of NA prime with a high turnout night.

WFD’s biggest problem if you guys never split up. That is the main reason why you guys failed to do anything of note on reset…or any day this match-up really. Until you guys learn to manage multiple groups within your guild you will continue to be a mediocre zerg guild.

Josh XT.6053:

Hawk and GH on Ebay that are rolling with 80 people.

There are not even 80 people when you combine Hawk and GH on reset night.

So your answer to a 30 man GH or 20 man hawk group is to bring 50 people. Good to know.

Dammit Potato, didn’t you read Sun Tzu’s Art of Spying? You are supposed to go incognito when relaying all the juicy Borlis map drama.

Mafuyu.9104:

stares at the video at 10:30 oh wow yeah we are soo not outmanned stares at 24:10 yep totally

I present to you the strategic minds of WFD. It is no wonder you guys dance in the palm of our commanders.

dunnberry.2964:

Lmao you think we are tier 2? Have you even seen SOS and CD? Their tier 3 and the numbers they field especially at Sea and Oceanic are ridiculous…also SBI how was that hiding in towers and keeps thing tonight in your BL?

Once the train starts there’s no stoppin it son. It is a one way one speed ride right off a cliff at tier 2 hope you enjoy it.

Mafuyu.9104:

Here you go
Yes, we totally run away from everyone
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6550nm_77uk

Haha get crushed all night then finally when you can pull 2x minimum our numbers you step up. I don’t think there is a guild out there worse than [WFD]. True bads in that one.

ps: All aboard the Borlis Express. Next stop tier 2, CHOO CHOOOOOOO

Yup here goes a week where Borlis relies on numbers to get things done but gets smashed with anywhere near similar numbers. Ohai WFD, was it fun only managing to capture our southern towers with that ~60 man group? Those Omegas were quite yummy as well.

Teva.2807:

I bet Ebay loved our golem rushes in their borderlands ^^ a nicely felt goodbye before reset. (or, F.U.) We love you guys, EB

Don’t worry, the Karma train thanks you. More keeps to cap = moar xp!

ps: Stop trying to oppose the karma train. You guys are just getting smashed every time.

KStudios.2850:

Aya Borliss! Didn’t get the chance to again congratulate you guys before the reset. That’s twice now you have come out of the gate swinging for the win against us. You have really turned youselves around and shaped up nicely. Best of luck with your new match-up. Looks like you got a pretty good one. Ours looks like more of the same unless we really get our act together fast lol.

Best regards from the Bay.

Except they were dead last coming out of the gate last matchup.

Chris.3290:

EB have been thousands of times classier than the mess going on in that thread.

A sad period is upon us indeed.

saiyr.3071:

Pulling 14 hour WvW shifts and having the most drama-filled week on your forums and calling someone else rustled?

Necro.6432:

I hope this ended the kitten talking from EB , great fights all over , though i haven’t seen the numbers BP had these last couple days in the whole week , woulda been interesting , grats on ur transfers.

You seem quite rustled. Sit down here and tell me where the bad man touched you.

Josh XT.6053:

In that 4 hours, many attempts were made on hills to take it even with wooden gates and you guys failed every single time. Just saying, you left that part out.. lol..

Except we actually took hills because your commander decided to rage to our bl and leave his completely undefended.

dunnberry.2964:

Lol EBay most of the week yes CD was deciding who it’d be…the last day and that big gap between us and all the red that’s been on your map and still is(pretty bay WP) does say otherwise, why can’t you all admit you lost to us? Ty for those that did we have gotten better! Would like a rematch though maybe something like BP/yaks/eBay or someone else similar to yaks(kain or DH)

Never said you guys did not improve, it is just not nearly as much as you think you have. [BS] and [WFD] are still some of the easiest to kill guilds out there. You guys are also terrible at making sure that yaks get into hills. I was able to keep it with wooden gates for…4 hours I think. Those are just my observations from what I did this week.

No, they really can not take on Maguuma. It was CD who unfortunately decided the second place server of this matchup.