Guild Wars 2

no, but if you were built around it sigil of strength would be the better choice. as it is fire would probably serve you better.

it is a problem that a lot of ranged attacks, projectiles in particular, have. that is about all I can say about that as I have never seen an official post to the obstruction issue. the partial successes are probably due to uneven terrain or the enemy using a skill for mobility when the wire hit them. hitting a thief using HS for instance has a good chance of just knocking him down where he is at instead of pulling, or just not pulling all the way.

that depends, does your build go into acrobatics? if so and you take might on dodge, sigil of strength can help your might stacking. if not, or if you prefer more burst over might stacking take fire. there is no definite better in this situation, it all comes down to how you play and what your traits are.

as far as I know they still stack to three seconds outside of sPvP. the nerf was PvP only, so WvW and PvE it shouldn’t have changed unless the paralyzation sigil was a bug.

well, for solo survivability P/D condition builds are amazing. full carrion with 0/0/30/20/20 works great. works on a similar idea as Dacromir’s, stealthing often for healing, cleansing, and the stealth attack, just uses a different style of damage dealing. with short bow, or dagger/dagger for the second weapon set, it is rather impressive. if you want to stick to power based builds, S/D or S/P work great.

hidden killer builds are still viable. first time seeing the S/D build you linked to, so not too sure about it yet.seems to be a little too lacking in offensive ability though. both give up damage for survivability. if that is the kind of build you want then by all means go with it. the yaksman build focuses on might stacking by dodging/stealth which may or may not be your thing though, so you may want to play around in the mists to find a more suitable hidden killer if it isn’t.

paleeshi.1924:

Thx for your responses I’ve tried some burst builds in spvp and still don’t like it. =/ Might see if it changes as I level up my char, but atm I feel that I will be sticking to a condition build.

One more question, are condition thieves good at taking supply points in WvW compared to burst thieves?

I always feel more comfortable doing it when I am in a condition build. SoM, caltrops dealth blossom and dagger storm combined makes soloing them easy. just get the scouts close together and make sure they die relatively quickly. you can kite the other enemies to death.

not saying it shouldn’t be switched with a major trait, no minor trait should force you to change your play style, but it is far from horrible. you just have to play with it in mind. when you are near the 25% health trigger, either take the hit or use a non attack method of going into stealth. I love the thing.

you generally shouldn’t both go conditions. one thief can, once it has access to the right abilities, max out bleed stacks on a single target in PvE. two condition thieves hurt the effectiveness of each other against the same target. that said, the two builds generally considered the best for leveling is D/D condition damage and S/P power/crit. both have very good AoE and survivability. the S/P thief can blind/evasion tank most things, and the bleed thief can kite everything else. I would suggest the S/P bring a shortbow as a secondary, and the D/D bring a pistol main hand for your second weapon sets. that way whoever gets the mobs attention can kite it. it makes champions a breeze.

in the end you should do what you enjoy most on the thief though. two condition thieves can work great together, if they focus on different primary targets. even better if one goes venom share. D/D burst works very well if you have someone more survivable to watch your back. have fun with it, and let me know if you need any more advice.

Rayya, if you are only using 2 buttons and people are getting away from you, you are using P/D at nowhere near peak efficiency. that said, with the standard 0/0/30/20/20 build and full carrion gear, your main attack is CnD followed by sneak attack. you can time CnD by your auto attacks, every 2 auto attacks is the minimum time you can wait to get another stealth off of CnD. don’t ignore dancing dagger, it is a nice way to catch runners, since the build isn’t as mobile as other thief builds. another thing is weapon swap. you do have 2 sets of weapons after all. try using D/D in your second slot. death blossom can stack long duration AoE bleeds quickly under evasion for a good chunk of the time you are using it. you can burn through your initiative using DB, utility or heal into stealth, sneak attack and be ready to stealth again as soon as revealed wears off. you can make good use of geomancy sigils like this. just be sure to keep a shortbow in your bags.

where bleed duration is concerned, pistol bleeds need 25% bleed duration to get an extra tick, where DB needs only 10%. take that into account when you rune/sigil your gear and chose your food. you can easily get to 75% bleed duration with 3 krait and 3 affliction runes, a superior agony sigil, and super or rare veggie pizza. more bleed duration helps pistol bleeds more than DB even though DB gets more duration simply because conditions get cleansed throughout a fight. caltrops are your best friend against players that dont know how to maneuver.

in stealth keep your movement unpredictable. you will be in stealth a lot, so don’t always move the same way. move away one time, move behind them another. break away in different directions. if you get predictable in stealth things can get sticky, you will have a high health pool (for a thief/guardian/elementalist), but only 300 above base toughness. you can drop caltrops without leaving stealth, so consider doing that before sneak attacking.

this is just what I can think of now, let me know if you have any other questions about the build or how to play it. I’ll help however I can.

as for armor sets to perfect your look, http://www.gw2armor.com/ is a good resource.

http://www.guildhead.com/skill-calc#mckmMc9coFLlMoFLlMax0GaczoqMRV is a good build to start with, using berserker weapons/armor and valkyrie jewelery. as has been said, thieves don’t go middle of the road well, but with the extra health and dodge capability this build gives you, you can live for quite a while.

yeah, sounds like he just timed CnD to hit just as stealth wore off. with proper timing that takes around 10-13 seconds depending on whether or not they invested 15 points in shadow arts. with other talents it can not only refund points on a hit as Tulisin already said, they can recover initiative faster in stealth and get an extra 3 initiative per 10 seconds through traits and signets. so it was totally possible in that time frame. did he use any other abilities or did he just CnD you down?

the problem with karma gear is that it can be hard to get the stats you need on it for every piece without traveling everywhere. except for the power/toughness/vit from the WvW vendors. D/D is fine if you enjoy it, but short bow would probably give you better performance with it than dual pistols, since it will give you a source of AoE.I would start off with something like 0/30/10/20/10 and berserker armor/weapons with valkyrie acessories. you can then tailor the build and your gear more to your tastes.
http://www.guildhead.com/skill-calc#mckzzc9cMFLnoMFLno0xaGazoqVMRV
just as an idea to start with.

as far as the mobs start with 25% less hp thing, our opening burst is insane. on non boss enemies we can quickly burst for massive amounts with cluster bomb and back stab, softening the enemies before the rest of the team gets set up a lot of the time. not to say the burst is less on bosses, just less noticeable.

Shizzlenit.7648:

I use Infi Strike a lot and never had problems with it… weird.

The Sigil still works, the daze duration of Tac Strike has been nerfed only in sPvP. The Sigil lifts the duration up to around 2,7 seconds. (In WvW & PvE ofc.)

I was referring to flanking strike, not IS. IS is great. and I thought the tactical strike nerf was global, my bad.

taking into account S/D is the build I have the least experience with, I’ll answer as best as I can.

as for the first question, it is mostly chaining dazes from stealth and filling the gap with auto attack to max out damage and control.

for number two, the ability has tracking issues so it doesn’t get used much.

for number three, I don’t know of any, but there are several ways to build it, based on whether you want more damage, or more control/survivability. good trees would be shadow arts, acrobatics and crit.

as for four, I think sigil of paralyze stopped working for the daze after its duration got nerfed.

and for five, you ca use a dagger in the main hand of your second weapon set to give yourself a lot of melee versatility. go into stealth with the sword out, then give the enemy a surprise back stab. you get the option of daze, blind, or burst when you go into stealth. a lot is said for making your enemy think about what you are going to do next instead of knowing. just remember to keep a short bow in your bag.

pistol/dagger is more likely to be effective if you are looking for skilled combatants. the burst build will work great against other glass cannons, newer/less skilled players, and surprise attacks but doesn’t work as well for 1v1s since the people that seek small scale combat out in WvW tend to be properly built and skilled enough to properly counter it. S/P and S/D are also worth taking a look at for 1v1 and small scale combat in WvW.

lets start with the weapon set, D/D S/P S/D and SB are all viable, and main hand sword is one of our best PvE weapons. as far as gear, can you at least afford a set of green gear off the TP? should be very cheap, and it is a good way to get started until you can afford rares/exotics through dungeon tokens/trading post. if you can’t, go to lost shores and mine the rich orichalcum node near the champion karka using shadow refuge and one other stealth ability. that should give you enough for greens. the best sets depends on how you play. you can survive full berserker, but that requires enough experience in dungeons that you don’t make mistakes very often at all. survivability is key in dungeons, so knights,valkyrie and soldier gear is all nice to help out direct damage builds. mixing in valkyrie jewelry with berserker armor and weapons gives you enough health to take a hit or two and live, while keeping your damage high. if you want to go with condition damage carrion is a great option. as far as builds, I would recommend 20 points in acrobatics for most builds. the extra health and dodging ability is priceless.

the big question is what weapons/play style you like though. give us that to work with and it will be a lot easier to give you an armor set/weapon combination and starting build that you are likely to enjoy and find success with.

you should be fine in explorable modes as long as you are in greens, as far as what to do, both WvW and explore/fractals are fun, so it’s up to what you prefer. you don’t have to do the dungeons in order, you can do whichever ones have to rewards you want as long as you have done the story mode of it already. as far as what armor to aim for, it depends on how you like to play the class. if you don’t mind giving more info on your preferred weapon set and play style, it would be a lot easier to help you figure out the gear set you should be aiming for.

if your group has a source of fury, the damage loss isn’t too severe. without a fury source you are entirely reliant on being able to stealth every 3 seconds. the upside to full valkyrie being the health pool and that you lose crit chance instead of crit damage like you would with knights, so you still hit at full power when you crit, but you crit less often. ruby orbs and access to fury both help. you should generally try to only stack as much survivability as you need to stay alive, so hidden killer would probably only be worth it if you are still dying with your build revision. never tried hidden killer in PvE to be honest though.

the first build will probably work better, thanks to the points in acrobatics. you could also mix knights and valkyrie for even more survivability if that doesn’t work for you. on that note, have you thought about a full valkyrie hidden killer build?

stealth cap is 15 seconds now, you can still chain stealths one after the other for longer stealths, just cant store more than 15 seconds worth.

Edited for errors, thanks Tulisin

berserker for full glass canon, you can use knights/valkyrie to increase survivability. it depends on how you want to play it. for full GC you go full berserkers, or if you want to be tankier knights armor and weapons with valkyrie jewelry works great. there is a full Valkyrie build that takes advantage of guaranteed crits from stealth via traits to back stab crit whenever revealed falls off. just a few ideas of what you can do depending on how glass/tanky you want to play the weapon set.

that is a glass canon build, and not the best one ever. since you are new to guild wars 2 I would recommend sword/pistol or dagger/dagger for conditions with death blossom

for sword pistol. use black powder to blind melee enemies and pistol whip/auto attack to finish them off, and use infiltrators strike or shortbow for ranged enemies. here is a good starting point to build towards. put priority on critical strikes and acrobatics while leveling to slowly move into this build.
http://www.guildhead.com/skill-calc#mckmMc9coFLCMoFLCMax0GaoozqMaV

for dagger/dagger condition damage a good starting point is
http://www.guildhead.com/skill-calc#mckzzMz9MoFnrMoFLCM9MxGGVmqMaVk

priorities being shadow arts and trickery. you jump in, drop caltrops once you have them, and death blossom till you are out of initiative. then you dodge away and kite the enemies until they are dead or your initiative recharges. on single strong enemies you switch to pistol/dagger and go in and out of stealth with cloak and dagger to stack bleeds with sneak attack while healing yourself in stealth. the build makes stealth a good source of healing, and turns shadow refuge into a second heal skill, so it has high survivability.

you aren’t actually getting much out of shadow arts with those traits in a D/D condition build since you won’t be in stealth that much. if you pick up venomous aura and leeching venoms you can venom share to support your team. also, full carrion would serve you better than mixing soldiers in, 30 points into shadow arts combined with the vitality from carrion gear gives you more than enough survivability, and you will have a higher damage output. if you do end up going venom share though, you may want to put 20 points into deadly arts for quick venoms.

the trait lines are far from mucky, they just take getting used to. the stats from a trait line don’t mean as much end game, compared to what the trait bonuses are. power gives several damage boosting and venom boosting options, and the bonus power/condition duration helps those work to their full effect. the crit line focuses on burst damage, while boosting crit chance and damage. shadow arts mainly focuses on stealth, and also gives a boost to toughness and healing power. acrobatics mainly modifies our maneuverability and our ability to dodge, granting bonuses to boon duration and vitality. trickery is focused on our class mechanics, it amplifies steal and changes our initiative system. certain trees also have the ability to shorten the CD on certain groups of utilities, like in trickery you can make tricks cool down faster.

the game isn’t built in a way where if you want to do X, you go down this trait line and this trait line only, using only X weapon. you have a lot of freedom in your builds, weapons, and gear choices. the down side to that system is that it takes time to understand.

tl:dr the trait lines are meant to be versatile, look at the major trait options over the stats the trait lines give you to find out what they are used for, each has a theme. it takes some getting used to.

dual skills have their own modifier traits, one for both damage and crit chance. those techniques you listed use both weapons. pistol mastery affecting pistol whip when only the first hit uses the pistol doesn’t make much sense does it?

D/D bleed is quite viable, though not as survivable as P/D builds in most cases. if it is what you want to focus on though it does free up trait points from shadow arts, since you wont be going in and out of stealth. main trait focuses should be trickery and acrobatics, for condition damage and dodging ability.

another option is to mix both D/D and P/D, so you have both single target and AoE bleed options. if that is the route you go, just be sure to keep a short bow handy in your bags for sieges. then the base build is 0/0/30/20/20

either way, carrion gear is usually the way to go. the P/D build can also use apothecary gear to great effect, trading out damage for an increase in survivability.

well, you have two main paths as far as easy to pick up leveling goes. condition damage with double daggers, where you run in drop caltrops if you have them and use death blossom until your initiative runs out, then kite the enemies till they die. trickery and acrobatics are good places for trait points while you level, as they enhance your condition damage and survivability. gear focus should be condition damage and vitality mainly as far as leveling goes.

the other is sword/pistol. you pick up signet of malice, and use black powder to blind your target and all targets in melee range. the smoke field will blind once a second, for I believe it is 4 seconds. the sword auto attack and pistol whip allow you to AoE down groups of mobs, and with signet of malice you can gain health for every enemy struck. critical strikes, acrobatics, and power are all good trees for that play style. gear focus is power/precision. you wont need a ton of health with all the daze and blind you have access to, but it helps.

good utilities for both are caltrops, shadow refuge, signet of agility, and shadow step.

these aren’t the only viable options for leveling, but they are the easiest and most effective from my experience. let me know if you have any more questions.

sword/pistol actually works great in WvW. the pistol whip nerf was painful, but not build breaking. knights armor, valkyrie accessories if you want more survivability, or you can go full berserker and still survive quite well as long as you know what you are doing. repair bills hardly matter in WvW as well, you will make more money than you lose unless you go upgrade crazy and never win a fight. and as people have said, mess around in the mists to find a basic idea of the setup you want to use.

thief abilities tend to queue since we don’t have CDs on our weapon abilities. I know you said you are not hitting the button twice, but that is the only game related issue I can think of. have you tried plugging in a different keyboard or mouse to see if that fixes the issue?

ZLE.8293:

Gungnir Grimm.7123:

I must be the odd man out because it never gets me killed…

You are either very,very good,or you don’t use Dagger Storm for elite….

I guess it just fits in well with my play style. I actually rarely CnD at low health, letting a hit drop me into stealth or using blinding powder/shadow refuge/HiS as they are more reliable. I usually only Dagger Storm when I am running with a fairly large group, and then I have SoM up so I rarely drop to low health while using it anyway.

I must be the odd man out because it never gets me killed…

shadow refuge and agility are great, and assassins signet helps any crit based build. assassin’s signet and signet of agility are the ones you will probably switch around depending on the situation and your playstyle though. scorpion wire is great in sieges, haste can be used in combination with signet of agility to negate haste’s downside. spider venom can poison someone to make their heals less effective if they don’t cleanse it, and blinding powder blinds everything around you and puts you in stealth for a good escape/maneuvering tool tool.

http://www.guildhead.com/skill-calc#mckmMc9coFLlooFLloax0GacosqMcV8kin7kiH

should be a nice starting point that can be used in both PvE and PvP. you could try knights gear with ruby orbs for armor/accessories. your health will still be fairly low, but you will be far more durable than with MF gear. use orrian truffle soup for might on dodge and increased endurance recovery to might stack on dodge since you will be able to so much while in melee, and pistol whip will supply evasion while it is swinging away. you will actualy be able to survive in melee provided you keep dodging and pistol whiping while in melee range then getting out when your initiative runs dry. when you get used to the play-style and change it to fit you better you can switch to more offense oriented gear if you want, even full berzerker.

first, drop the magic find gear for gear with 3 useful stats. berserkers or a mix of knights and Valkyrie would both work better. another thing that would help you survive is trying 10/30/0/20/10 or something similar. you will get 2k extra HP and be able to dodge 3 times in a row on top of major trait bonuses from acrobatics. also try precision to vitality in crit strikes for an extra 1k or so hp while you get used to endgame play. are you blinding mobs with black powder or using other control in PvE? thieves can’t take hits so running in, burning initiative and then running out to dps with bow auto attack while you recharge will help you survive until you learn fight patterns.

crit chance does not affect bleeds, and is only helpful for bleeds if you can bleed on crit. that said leveling conditions with DB is extremely effective at leveling, especially with caltrops and signet of malice. you can even beat hordes of risen in orr with that setup. I would recommend carrion gear over rampager. the extra condition damage and survivability are more than worth it. I went 40-80 with condition damage and I never had any problem with most anything. that and sword/pistol are probably the most effective/easiest builds for leveling.

if the bug was fixed it wouldn’t be an issue. that said I wouldn’t mind seeing heart seeker get a 1 initiative cost increase. also, does the engineer have much access to cripple or chill? if so saving those for when the thief starts spamming HS will significantly reduce the distance he gets with the ability.

Dispari.3980:

Can I be devil’s advocate and say that rock is a pretty decent steal?

it IS a 1 second knockdown from range. it’ll stop a runner

DigitalMaster.4870:

Why wont people get that Steal is just the tip of the iceberg. Our strengths lie in initiative.

Steal is just a nice ability to have, and a strong one when traited. it’s as class defining as engineers having turrets. Just because it’s on your F1 doesn’t mean it has to do something spectacular.

I would say it is slightly more class defining than turrets, but yeah, people ignore initiative because it doesn’t do anything in and of itself. it is a resource bar, not some flashy power move. steal gets looked at because it does something actively, instead of being so built into the class it feels so natural you don’t realize it is different from anything else. it also seems the OP significantly undervalues steal.

it isn’t just a rock though. it is an instant 900 range gap closer, and while you do need to trait for it to make it truly impressive, we enhance it easier than other professions enhance their abilities. all you have to do is go 10 into power, 10 into trickery and you get a high damage, group buffing, poisoning gap closer that gives you an ability depending on what you stole from while restoring initiatve. with that set up, if you steal from a GC warrior between the mug damage and the fury enhanced whirling axe the warrior will die so fast it isn’t funny.

the on roll caltrops are more useful for cripple than bleed (1 maybe 2 stacks of bleed), the area and damage is much smaller. sticking with thrill of the crime would probably be the best idea unless you need to kite a lot. also, thrill of the crime is just amazing for a 10 point trait.

you could try D/D condition damage. it works great for solo play and small groups, but doesn’t play nice with other bleed based build so large events and to a lesser extent dungeons can be problematic. other than that, sword pistol is also quite effective in PvE. it has an AoE auto attack, infiltrator’s strike, the stun/evade of pistol whip, and a ranged daze and the smoke field of black powder. shortbow is the preferred secondary for either.

you forgot S/P still being viable. pistol whip may be out damaged by the auto attack now, but short term evasion and a short stun that can interrupt help, and it still hits quite hard. the auto attack hits like a truck, and you have a ranged daze and blind from the pistol off hand. plus IS is awesome. it makes a great WvW fighter, never played with it in structured though. would like to see P/P get some love though.

Wanna.4721:

Thing is you’re talking about the other classes skills in terms of mobility, not gap closing. RTL is used to cover ground fast, same for GS warrior skills. Thieves don’t use HS to move faster… it’s when you try to kite them, that they start using it.
And I’m trying not to bring up it’s damage potential, just the gap closing part. Why isn’t working like death blossom?

I see it used for mobility quite often, haste+HS can cover ground. as for gap closing, there are better options, but honestly I wouldn’t mind its initiative cost being raised to 4. it would help stop spamming, and wouldn’t overly affect those who use it properly/efficiently. I honestly prefer dancing dagger over HS anyway. harder to avoid, bounces, and with my speed it gets me in range with the bonus of not having to deal with accidentally queuing the same ability twice.

well, as far as condition damage, and being able to slip away, pistol/dagger is amazing. you use sneak attack from stealth to stack bleeds, and CnD when revealed falls off to do it again. your dual skill can get you out of AoEs quickly if you are out of endurance, and with dancing dagger you have access to a cripple. D/D can be used, but you can’t stealth anywhere near as much. death blossom is a more powerful source of bleeding, but eats initiative and is far easier to avoid. one thing I like to do is use both P/D and D/D in my weapon slots, and keep a short bow in my bags for when it is needed. you can open with pistol/dagger then switch to D/D, spam DB, utility into stealth, and swap back to P/D.

gear should be either carrion (condition damage/power/vit) or apothecary (Vit/condition damage/healing power) and I think there is a condition damage/toughness/healing power set. any of the three work well.

the basic build is 30 into shadow arts for 2 initiative on stealth,condition removal every 3 seconds in stealth, and healing while in stealth. 20 into acrobatics. and 20 into trickery. start there and change it to match your style. general utilities are shadow refuge, caltrops, blinding powder, and shadow step. but don’t forget to switch to others as needed.

another thing to take into account is that all pistol bleeds get an extra tick every 25% condition duration, while death blossom gets one every 10%. so plan your runes/sigils accordingly.

Laika.8795:

Heartseeker range needs nerfed (300 max). Heartseeker needs to have a target to engage the leap (like IS needs one) so you can’t skip away like a fairy attacking the wind. This really needs to be addressed.

warrior GS has two closers that can be used without a target for mobility, elementalist have ride the lightning, there are plenty of gap closers that have no need for a target and are used for mobility as well. yeah, heart seeker does more damage, but only when your opponent has less than half health, and it is so easy to dodge/counter. HS spam is kind of like hundred blades, it gets a lot of hate for its high damage potential, while how easy it is to counter is completely overlooked. when it is spammed, if you dodge and immobilize,chill, or cripple they will use all their initiative in one spot hitting air.

also, anet has changed abilities for consistency in the past so if you want heart seeker to require a target, than all gap closers that can currently be used for mobility would probably have to undergo the same change as well.

probably because it does crap damage when an opponent is above 50% hp and it isn’t very accurate. you can side step it at it’s max range, and when the thief is crippled/chilled it gets next to no distance on it. part of the problem is that it can also be spammed after mug/back stab. it is worth mentioning that heart seeker spam is probably in the top 3 of inefficient ways for a thief to fight.

also, with a main hand dagger thieves usually wont have a sword in the second weapon slot so that gap closer is out. the shortbow’s costs 6 initiative so it can’t always be used to close gaps/escape. that leaves shadow step with a 60 second CD, infiltrator’s signet with 30 seconds, and scorpion wire at 30 seconds for utilities, and you will usually on see shadow step on a thief’s bar. so a 60 second stun break for a closer, and steal as a closer on a 45 second CD that can be reduced by trait points into trickery, but traiting more than 10 into trickery is usually only done by condition builds. if dagger is your main hand, the only real offhand closer you get is with pistol, as DB is easily avoidable, and prone to accidents. so for D/D burst builds, that often open with steal, and of which many don’t use shadow step, heart seeker is the only gap closer without a large CD, and if they spam it, they are going to burn out all their initiative on an easy to counter ability.

well, what thief playstyle do you enjoy the most? for high damage there are builds like D/D and S/P, condition damage has D/D and P/D. there is S/D for control, and venom share builds that can help amplify the power of groups. it is ultimately down to what weapons/style you prefer so let me know what play style within the thief profession you would like, and I will help you out to the best of my ability.

Stiv.1820:

Tulisin.6945:

Stiv.1820:

for the ravens when you pop Guild

If you’re popping the one thief elite with a huge cooldown, the ravens may not be worthwhile.

Nothing seems like a long cool-down in WvW. TG is up for a lot of fights it seems. Ravens would just add more crap. Do they do anything useful?

each target in range gets hit something like 8 times, and you hit up to five people with them, so if you have signet of malice equipped, it makes your elites function as a decent heal. also, I think the total damage the ravens do 1k-2k damage per target. not a bad option if you are partial to signet of malice. keep in mind that if you use dagger storm with it the ravens proc at the end of the channel, but it makes SoM+dagger storm even more useful for busting up groups of players.

Khairos.3890:

That looks like exactly what I was looking for. Thank you!

no problem, let me know if you need anything else.