No, you would only get the same rewards if you put in MORE effort than they do. Not less, not the same, MORE.
so many things wrong with what you’re saying / wanting, but just this one : GRINDING is not the same as EFFORT. for you, spamming 1 a few weeks in your easy mode raid is what you’re calling effort. Not for many of us. We will never agree as long as you’ll keep saying that nonsense.
I do want both, and I would be unsatisfied if I only got either without the other.
yes, you’re greedy wanting both, we know it. It’s a game, you don’t have to have all. i dont like pvp or wvw, so i won’t have these rewards. And that’s fine.
Players can choose to use it to train up, but they should not feel that they are missing out on anything if that is not how they want to use the feature. Easy mode raids should be an equal partner to hard mode, not a second class citizen.
except that with your solution to easy mode raid, it’s impossible to train (no mechanism, no wipe etc…). And story (or easy mode raid) could be the same as low level fractal or story dungeon (that works for reward too)
And that is the barrier. This is a game, and players should never feel encouraged to do content that they know they will not enjoy. NOBODY ever benefits from players not enjoying the game they’re playing.
so don’t do it. Again, i don’t do things i dislike. But your problem is the reward, the carrot. you want it, but dont want to do the things needed to have it.
Yes, and for many months to come, until something is done to resolve the situation.
be patient then, because there is no situation to be resolved..
Then stop trying to promote “easy raids should not have a path to good rewards” as if it were a point of fact. We all know your opinion on the matter as well, and I only raise mine when you insist on yours, so stop saying that easy raids shouldn’t have raid rewards and I’ll stop saying that they should, simple as that.
I’ll stop when you stop ^^
Irrelevant, the point was that the general consensus seemed to be that HoT’s content, in general, was too challenging already, and raids are significantly moreso. Given that, wouldn’t it stand to reason that more of those players would be driven away from the raids with their “highly challenging content” than would be attracted by that “feature?”
your opinion again. My opinion is that more people were attracted by this feature than the contrary. you and i don’t have numbers to back up our claims, that’s all.
You keep repeating this.
And every time you do, we all agree with you.
This statement is 100% correct.
You don’t need to keep repeating it.
But the bit that you’re leaving out is, that even though some content CAN be tuned for a specific audience, it’s also important to not leave out the remaining audience, blocking them off from story content and rewards that they might enjoy having access to. If you’re going to say “this challenge level is not tuned for you,” then you need to follow it up with “but this other challenge level IS tuned to you, because you’re valued customers.”
So yes, have the highly tuned content for " more demanding people," but also have a lower-tuned version for “less demanding people.” That’s all we’re asking for here.
but i agree with lower-tuned version, for lore or story or teaching purpose. But you and I know that you don’t care about that, you want an easy way to legendary armor, and that i will never agree with you.
Quantity, yes. Quality, no. There is no justification for a quantity argument beyond “I want to punish lower challenge players for not enjoying the type of content I enjoy.” Players should not be restricted from having access to the armor skins that they want just because they do not enjoy highlight challenging content in a game which is mostly NOT highly challenging content, and again there is no need for strawman arguments about how the bar should be lowered even below the current bareline difficulty.
And there is no justification for a quality argument, except your own selfish desire. So far, you’re among the tiny minority that want full raid reward (in quality) in easy mode raid. Again, there is no barrier to prevent you for having raid reward, except that you dont want to raid. That’s okay, but stop asking for raid rewards. You’re the one talking about that since so many months now. We all know your points, there is nothing new.
(edited by Hypairion.9210)
True, and we know that one of the most common complaints at launch was that HoT’s content was tuned at a higher level of difficulty than many players were comfortable with.
irrelevant, open world is designed, by definition, to most people. so it’s okay for it to be turned down, for more people. Raid, from the begenning, were designed for more demanding people, not for people like you. And that’s okay, not everyone has to enjoy all content. Some content can be tuned for some people, and that’s fine.
But i could agree that people could enjoy more relaxing raid encounters, as long as rewards are tuned down too, both in quality and quantity of course. That’s just logical.
Game has no place for people unwilling to do things.
Raids were introduced exactly because a group of people were unwilling to play it at the same level as others, and wanted the content finetuned to their personal desires.
I see no difference here at all.
not at all the reason, but i will keep your sentence, because it summarizes perfectly what is happening right now with some people here and on reddit, wanting raid to be turned down for their own personal and selfish desires.
Im still wondering if someone from anet will come and give opinion on this here. While we are on it will anyone from anet actually consider kicking “selling” raids from lfg. Its getting anying as hell. Its hard enough to browse lfg even without those pricks. not just that those ppl take space there , but they are creating completely new set of players who link tonic but dont know what to do at any boss. This affects pug raiding , a lot.
Gems buys the gold that buy the runs you dont like to see on lfg.
Dont generalize your case pls…i think most of the buyers are hard core farmers or tp barons, more than people like you exhanging gems to gold.
And there is nothing wrong with that.Its a fact that i bought thousands of UK pounds worth of gems to get the insights for this armour..But you prefer to fantasize that this gold comes from tp flipers..And its not possible to farm the gold needed for 150 insights.all i do is farm gold in this game and 100g a day dont touch the 35k gold needed for insights.as a side note the gold i had to buy got me rank 15 on gw2 efficiency
It is possible to obtain enough gold weekly to purchase an entire raid clear without converting gems to gold.
In a game were you can buy gems and convert to gold that also allows the selling of runs you do not think gem sales pay for runs?no you would rather believe that this gold is being farmed or thats its tp flipers buying runs.you do know santa is not real.
was it not intended that legendary weapons be sold on the TP?the only difference here is you cant buy this armour from third party gold selling sites.
Do you really think many people like you exist? Willing to spend several thousand euros / dollars whatever for some pixels ? Don’t make me laugh pls…whales like you are pretty uncommon…
Im still wondering if someone from anet will come and give opinion on this here. While we are on it will anyone from anet actually consider kicking “selling” raids from lfg. Its getting anying as hell. Its hard enough to browse lfg even without those pricks. not just that those ppl take space there , but they are creating completely new set of players who link tonic but dont know what to do at any boss. This affects pug raiding , a lot.
Gems buys the gold that buy the runs you dont like to see on lfg.
Dont generalize your case pls…i think most of the buyers are hard core farmers or tp barons, more than people like you exhanging gems to gold.
And there is nothing wrong with that.
Ok, then we should stop all farm trains asap too. Same insults, way more toxic individuals, insults way more often visible and also reported.
If you haven’t noticed, whenever toxicity in any farm trains reached any greater levels, Anet always nerfed that farm into the ground.
yes, because it was a toxicity in game. So far, i’ve yet to see the toxicity you’re all talking about for raids in game…it’s just a minority of player arguing over and over for both side on the official forum for me (including me).
…and that’s exactly why many people do not want to even attempt raiding.
If you can’t even put in a bit of effort to have reasonable runes slotted into your gear (which can be exotic for all I care) then yeah, I’m glad they don’t attempt raiding. It’s a team effort, not a solo effort. You’re wasting 9 other people’s time by trying to keep your special snowflake build when it’s not even that special.
Most raiders are reasonable otherwise. My raid guild recruited a guy who pugged with us the other day – he lacked the LI we LFGed for (he had like 5 before he started raiding with us), but he was competent and proved it.
Does that sound like elitist behavior to you?
How are you wasting 9 other people’s time with “special snowflake build” (whatever the hell that is) when me, running my pack runes, can kill VG, Gors, Etc., etc, with a huge amount of time to spare? Like I said before everything I have on my ps is the exact same thing on meta battle except for the runes. In my honest, honest opinion, only toxic elitist would kick someone because they didn’t run a specific rune. Now, I COMPLETELY understand if ur a tempest running pack runes. Yeah, I have absolutely no issue with kicking that Ele.
You’re losing out on bonus ferocity + 10% bonus damage. That’s perhaps minor, but it is still damage you opted to lose out on because you were lazy – and that is why you deserved the kick. Like I alluded to earlier, attitude is important in raids. You fall short of it by choosing to let others pick up your slack.
And be consistent with your lies, won’t you? First you say you haven’t raided with your warrior. Now you say you’ve killed bosses with it. Honestly, your trolling isn’t even halfway decent. Get good.
And yet we still get the job done. Again, you are making a big deal out of nothing.
and what would happen if all other 9 players were like you? do you still think the job would be done in a pug settings?
…and that’s exactly why many people do not want to even attempt raiding.
totally agree, if the risk is to play with people like OP :p
Its not the number of insights that bothers some its more the time gate they cause.
il repeat what has been said now for 13 pages.for those with static groups we are talking 4 months,this could be as long as 6 months to a year for players with no static group using lfg every week.for raids to survive and continue being developed they must attract players.haveing the rewards locked behind massive time gates will only shorten there life span.that dont bother the i got mine kitten crowd.
and the fact that you’re buying your runs, which means less LI so less gold spent for you, has nothing to do with your statement?
PS : i’m not at all a raid seller
Same as other, i would have kicked you out of my pug run if i was the com. Because raid, for me, require to bring optimal food / gear (i’m a min / max player…). So if i see someone like you, even if it’s a good player, i will kick him.
More than enough people want raids gone or at least adjusted.
Not even that. Don’t remove anything, don’t change anything. Leave Raiders with their fun. But at the same time add something that others can have fun as well.
Hmm, LS 3 is coming and will fill that role ^^
i dont understand how raiders diminish your gaming experience…
Because if Envoy armor and the Forsaken Thicket content is blocked behind having to raid, then if I do not raid, I cannot have those things, and therefore, raiding is diminishing my experience. If raids did not exist, then Envoy Armor would be placed somewhere else in the game, and the Forsaken Thicket content would be told as an open world, or LS, or perhaps dungeon style content, and that would be far preferable.
hmm, then you’ve got a serious problem and i’m sorry for you. You just have to accept that it’s a game, you can’t have everything. And if you were trully motivated, you’d be raiding right now. But since you have decided that raiding is not for you and it’s a horrible experience, just move on. You’d be better. Or be patient, Anet will probably add legendary armor elsewhere in the game.
Some players enjoy raids, and this is fine. Other players do not. Those other players should not have their potential experienced diminished because they do not enjoy raids.
i dont understand how raiders diminish your gaming experience… you dont like raid, so i guess you dont play with raiders after all. Or maybe, you’re just jealous because they have access to some reward that you want but can’t have? if that’s the case, it’s your fault, not their.
Reading this got me thinking “so this is the fun raids provide?”
You had to do research (read guides, watch videos), learn some dude’s rotation, try for 2 days, fail, watch some videos again, on the 3rd day basically beg for a raid spot, fail a few times again, only then get your first VG kill and you call yourself somewhat lucky?
This is one of the saddest stories I’ve read in a while. How can anyone call this a “beautiful story” or a “raid success story”?
I get it, the fun part is to achieve something, but c’mon, after this, the biggest prize in raiding would be to never do this again.
It’s just your point of view because you don’t like raid and you’ll be happy if ANet erase it.
But for us raiders it’s a really nice story ^^
Of COURSE nobody is suggesting that the easy modes have the same or even similar rewards. In other games, the easy mode often provides NO raid rewards but only trash loot, the normal mode provides some raid rewards, and the hard mode provides special rewards that are ONLY available in the hard mode.
If only you were right.. There is someone in this very thread that want legendary armor in easy mode, and will never be satisfied otherwise.
Of course easy mode should not have the same Reward as normal raids (both in qualities and quantities…)
Well if you are playing revenant you have a really important job in VG, that is keep face of nature 100% of the time, so the chrono can have 100% boon duration to tank. Then if you use shiro and waste your resource bar, you cant maintain facet so you are hurting your party.
Your other job is help with breakbar, so if you like using shield for example because its fun,then you are again just hurting your team, as there is 0 reason for you to use both of shield skills.
If your stats that you dont mention have Toughness, again you are making the chrono kitten himself because now he needs to equip even more toughness to hold aggro.
So its not a matter of build but a matter of you dont want to play the role that is needed, and want to everyone change their build so they can afford 1 revenant that want play his selfish way.Sigh you don’t understand a thing it seems. I’m not explaining myself further as I have repeated myself MANY times now. I ain’t getting through to you. Everything you said there is completely irrelevant.
What is sure if that with the attitude you’re showing to us, I wouldn’t want you in my training session. Willingness to adapt and good attitude are what matter in a training session, and so far you’ve just shown us the contrary…
You COMPLETELY missed the point of why I don’t use them.
I don’t use them because they are not fun. I don’t refuse to be some sort of gw2 hipster. To me they are not fun to use, specific weapons are not fun to use, specific elites or utilities I dislike using and are no fun to me.I understand my builds and in a lot of cases it’s the same, maybe slight variations. Necro for example, I was using a variation of a well build for pvp I created myself before it was even up on any meta websites. it was mostly identical, again I do understand my proffesions. I just like using things that are fun to me. if a build or weapon set or utilities are not fun I am not going to use them. It would be negative on my gaming experience.
Can you give us an example of what builds you’re running when you attempt raids? As long as a build makes sense is generally what I look for. If someone is running a different build but is still performing the mechanics and doing what his class needs to do, pugs usually don’t care.
If it’s just a different build with slight variations, yes who care in a pug raid. But if I see a riffle war or à gs mesmer because, you know, he thinks they’re fun weapons, that’s not the same. Or maybe he dislikes chrono and prefer vanilla mesmer..
Your build MAY BE viable but I’m 100% sure that your build dont out perform meta build, there are a lot of experienced guilds pushing for world records on clear times, and if your build outperformed metas they would be using it ( dont think nobody never tried it, its not like there is infinite builds ).
And if your wrong ( you never cleared a raid with your build so you cant give any proof ) you will waste hours of 9 other people. So you are the one being selfish with this attitude, there is nothing wrong with off-meta builds if you form your own party with 9 other people that want to try new builds.
But for people that want to clear the raids before next reset (everyone has limited playtime), meta builds is the better way to ensure it.
So you have two options, make your own group ( and you may find that you are wrong after wiping for hours with no sucess) or just change your build.
But if your build dont do enough damage to clear a raid boss, please dont make a post after asking for nerfs because raids are too hard.I say that I outperform meta because I understand my build more and my proffesion more. In my experience especially in pvp, those that just copy/paste metas majority of the time they have no clue how to properly use them and no experience with the proffesion and thus are easy to kill. What matters is the skill of the individual using the build, not usually the build itself. It helps but not essential in my experience. Meta is “best” on paper, but in the hands of an amateur it’s no better than anything else.
Sure I’ve not tried but in my experience with every other content and world meta events and content and dungeons and fractals I’ve yet to run into an issue where my builds don’t perform up to standard or can’t keep up with others in my groups.
I have no issue with challenging content, and would never ask for a nerf. I enjoy challenging things and if I don’t happen to be performing well I adapt. I’ve played many many games that are challenging and placed limitations on myself to make it moreso and I don’t complain. Again I do understand where people do come from in wanting to do content with the least amount speedbumps. My only issue is the attitudes I’ve ran into of people running this content and the little support there is for new people to get into it.
Could you please tell us what builds you are using ? Because without proofs, we won’t trust you…
Guys, stop getting into Ohoni’s pace. Seriously.
He has his own point of view and he won’t change, no matter what you say.Yes, it could be pretty tempting, but it’s pointless. He’s the kind of guy who always want to have the last words. Just… save your energy and hope ArenaNet understands that they don’t need to cater to his specific needs.
Irrelevant – we must counter him every step of the way until he decides to call it quits and retreats back to wherever he came from.
He’s human and thus will at one point cease. We have to keep going until that point is reached.
hmm, what will happen is most probably the thread is closed (it’s what happen with him usually…)
What we have seen here on this thread is an example of whats wrong with raids and some of the people it attracts.
you’re talking about you? because i kept reading the same nonsense from you since many days, with nothing constructive and just generalizing from your own situation..
How can you claim this dose not generate gold for the player doing it?The players doing it do it to get more gold,and the more that learn about this exploit and join in the worse the problem gets and it will cause inflation and damage the game.Makes no difference if its gold direct or mats sold to get gold,more gold is more gold.
Before posting, you should look for the définition of inflation.
What happens in AB is that some people get richer by selling ecto and mats, and some other then get poorer buying these ecto and mats.
So no gold is generated from nothing and injected into the economy (contrary to the daily reward of 2 gold for example).
Do you see the différence ?
In order to stay on topic, I think there are several solutions to make raids fights more accessible.
First, we have the people that would like to enjoy the actual raid fights but can’t actually for different reasons. they could use a training mode made for them to access more easily the normal mode, and then enjoy the raid Anet made. Several posts were made about it.
Secondly, we have the people that are not at all interested in the normal raid, but still want to enjoy à pièce of the raid. They don’t need / want to learn mechanics, but are interested in the rewards (for some it’s actually the main reason). They don’t need much mechanisms, and just want a stressless environnement without risk of wiping. Level difficulty dungeon and lower fractal.
The problem is that the easy modes for this 2 kinds of people are not the same. I guess only Anet know which solution can be the best for their game. Personaly, I think the first solution is the best one, because more people could then enjoy the work Anet put in normal raids.
Ohoni you have to accept Envoy is part of PvE content aka raids to get it do the current raids yes there can be an easier raid but the envoy should be long to the original raids, if they release a separate armor it should go to WvW not to PvE which already has one way of getting it.
Nah.
and yes. It is, and only if you can back up your claim with numbers, you’re part of the minority who’s not accepting this fact.
gain every content in game has at least one type of legendary gated behind it Ow pve has weapons no other game type can get weapons, fractals and pvp have back pieces, raids have armor,
And if that bothers you then push to have alternate methods of earning those things too, you have my support 100%. But don’t try to use that as some sort of reason why Envoy armor must be locked permanently behind hard mode raids.
We told you plenty of time it’s not bad to have some things locked behind specific tasks (like pvp, fractal, and now raids). Ok you don’t agree with that, it’s your right. But iy’s our right to be perfectly fine with that.
Time =/= Effort.
True, but (Effort*2)Time == Effort(Time*2).
Oh i can play too, that means (effort*10)time = = effort(time*10).
I prefer my equation.
You keep going back to having Legendaries in it no matter what, you are overly focused on the rewards and not the content.
I’m only responding to people like you that insist that they can’t be. Again, don’t make it an issue and it’s not an issue. If you do make it an issue, then don’t cry foul when people respond to you about it.
and we’re responding to people like you that insist they can have everything in this game. Don’t make an issue when it’s not an issue. Or maybe you want this thread to be closed like the previous one?
If an easier difficulty is ever needed which is highly unlikely due to the room for error already proven with raids I propose this.
Proposed “easy mode” raid idea, these tweaks if used as a separate easy mode would allow people to learn mechanics with less pressure and more room for error, as well as providing them with rewards.
Increase enrage timers by 2 minute on all bosses,
VG
Reduce amount of people needed for Green circles to twoReduce the amount of Seekers spawned
Gorsival
Reduce the amount of Orbs
Have fewer enraged spirits on updraft phases
Sabbatha
I’m not sure what to tweak this boss is almost purely mechanic based possibly reduce the amount of Flak, and reduce the red bombs.
Second wing I have only done Slothazor so I will only provide suggestions for his fight for wing 2.
Reduce the amount of Slubs and amount of Mushrooms consumed to clear path.
With these Tweaks for an easier mode provide 3/4 the amount of Magnetite shards rewarded for phased wipes, 1/2 as many for boss clears, keep ascended item drops both generic and special skins as they are for both modes, have legendary Insights as completion rewards, remove Legendary armor ingredients like Spirit Silk, and other Boss specific ingredients.
Interesting post, most realistic proposal than some others, if an easy mode should be made. I don’t agree with all, but at least there is room for discussion.
The wipe mechanisms are still there, so people can still learn something. But I’m sure some other will disagree with you just for this very idea.
For the reward, I’m not against some shards, but I think the cap should be lower than the normal mode (40 or 50 for example). Titles and succès should stay exclusive.
And I’m not sure about the insights things too. But at least keeping key component of Legendary Armor in normal raid would motivate people.It was thrown together pretty hastily I will admit I edited twice, the main point of the proposal is to not completely remove any mechanics so as to show the people using it how the raids should operate at a reduced level, the rewards would need a better looking at mostly the currency caps and such while the normal loot drops should be left how they are maybe decreasing the Special boss specific skins drop chance, the insights aren’t a huge issues in my eyes, I left those in the proposal due to most people claiming those cause people to not get picked up in normal raid modes there by increasing accessibility.
Maybe for sabetha make the green bombs last longer. And for the 2 nd wing, it’s more complicated.. Maybe make more cd on the volatile poison. And only normal sublings during the fight.
Yes I figured after that the insight could help people to pug (and then train).
If an easier difficulty is ever needed which is highly unlikely due to the room for error already proven with raids I propose this.
Proposed “easy mode” raid idea, these tweaks if used as a separate easy mode would allow people to learn mechanics with less pressure and more room for error, as well as providing them with rewards.
Increase enrage timers by 2 minute on all bosses,
VG
Reduce amount of people needed for Green circles to twoReduce the amount of Seekers spawned
Gorsival
Reduce the amount of Orbs
Have fewer enraged spirits on updraft phases
Sabbatha
I’m not sure what to tweak this boss is almost purely mechanic based possibly reduce the amount of Flak, and reduce the red bombs.
Second wing I have only done Slothazor so I will only provide suggestions for his fight for wing 2.
Reduce the amount of Slubs and amount of Mushrooms consumed to clear path.
With these Tweaks for an easier mode provide 3/4 the amount of Magnetite shards rewarded for phased wipes, 1/2 as many for boss clears, keep ascended item drops both generic and special skins as they are for both modes, have legendary Insights as completion rewards, remove Legendary armor ingredients like Spirit Silk, and other Boss specific ingredients.
Interesting post, most realistic proposal than some others, if an easy mode should be made. I don’t agree with all, but at least there is room for discussion.
The wipe mechanisms are still there, so people can still learn something. But I’m sure some other will disagree with you just for this very idea.
For the reward, I’m not against some shards, but I think the cap should be lower than the normal mode (40 or 50 for example). Titles and succès should stay exclusive.
And I’m not sure about the insights things too. But at least keeping key component of Legendary Armor in normal raid would motivate people.
I can read guides and watch videos all I want, I’m still asked to show LI’s or that I’m full asc.
Because you want to pug raid, that’s all. Look for a guild. In mine, we don’t mind bringing one or 2 new people and explain them our strats and the boss mechanisms.
i was just quoting you, quoting someone saying it was fair to have same rewards in easy mode raid than in normal raid. You are the guy obsessed with the raid rewards, we just have to look at your history on the forum. I’m merely someone who disagree with you on this topic, that’s why i’m here.
If you say so, but you are the one constantly bringing them up and then shouting “how dare you talk about rewards?!”
Really? Are you sure? If I go back to your history I won’t find any post about rewards? Here, you were the first one to quote someone talking about reward, just a few post above.
Why are you so obsessed with rewards? We’re talking about a mode for people who are not suited for the existing raid, locking them out of the rewards because of that would make the whole thing pointless.
i was just quoting you, quoting someone saying it was fair to have same rewards in easy mode raid than in normal raid. You are the guy obsessed with the raid rewards, we just have to look at your history on the forum. I’m merely someone who disagree with you on this topic, that’s why i’m here.
They should have an easy mode that has no timer and things deal less damage or whatever, and design them so you can’t wipe like on dungeons or fractals, should still give all the same rewards just in lesser amounts, and maybe separate titles for each mode.
I’m not going to shedule raid night and spend hours getting ready, just want them to be pugable.
Yeah, that sounds fair.
Hmm, easy mode why not, if people can learn some raids tricks. But no reward of course, to be fair with actual raider. Or maybe some shards.
But now the fun begin in this thread, as this topic was already discussed in 2 previous topics, and no agreement was made.
Again, they could, but soon after it falls off the front page someone else would just start a new one. If you really want this topic to go away permanently, then they need to actually make changes to the game that would resolve the underlying issues. “Do nothing” won’t accomplish that, however much you wish it would.
by someone else, you meen you or astral, that’s it? because so far i only see almost you.
Fun fact – i haven’s started a single Raid-related thread so far. Not sure about Ohoni (can’t check it due to merges), but at the moment at least i don’t see any that was started by him. Some of those threads were started by raiders, actually.
Would be indeed fun if it was raid related. That’s why we complain, most of the post here are made by non raiders not liking raid or that didnt want to raid, but still wanting the raid rewards…
but again, 20 pages ago talking about legendary armor in easy mode raid was a thing. So far, you bring nothing new on the topic. Bring something new, and we will read it. But stop recycling things you wrote 20 pages ago, again and again…for me, easy mode raid is not a solution. For you, yes. Anything else to add? if not, then this topic needs to die.
This topic needs to be alive for sole reason of being place for critical responses about raid system. Because last one with 29 pages of discussion was closed for no logical reason.
Until a mod chooses to close it because all posts are off topic or just things that were discussed 20 pages ago. You’re welcome.
But since we have no numbers, the discussion must be based on hypotheticals. I’ve made my stand on what I believe should happen IF a significant number of players do not enjoy the current raids. You have made proposals based on the idea that there are no such significant numbers. ANet has better access to determining the numbers, and they will decide what to do based on those numbers. Nobody on the outside can definitively determine the correct outcome, given the limited data available.
so what’s the point on keep talking about it? you made your claim, i made mine, and neither of us will change is mind.
So you’ve switched to my side? Awesome, welcome aboard!
indeed, i’m happy to see you agree with me. maybe you’ll stop beeing selfish and greedy then?
Again, they could, but soon after it falls off the front page someone else would just start a new one. If you really want this topic to go away permanently, then they need to actually make changes to the game that would resolve the underlying issues. “Do nothing” won’t accomplish that, however much you wish it would.
by someone else, you meen you or astral, that’s it? because so far i only see almost you. my point is everyone in this topic, at a moment, have talked about easy mode raid. we didn’t manage do reach an agreement, even in the teaching easy mode raid could provide because you don’t want to be teached.
then, all you’re talking about is reward, reward and reward. and by reward, you mean legendary armor (you don’t care about other raid reward, even if maybe part of the community you claim to talk for may be interested in something else).
The rewards attached to easy mode are certainly a part of discussing easy mode, and since the armor is an attached reward to the existing raids, discussions of whether they should be included in easy mode are a natural part of the discussion. Discussion of access to the armor, or other rewards, outside of the easy mode raid were the result of people claiming that easy mode raids should not contain access to the Legendary armor, which then begs the question, “well where else could it be then?”
a part? probably. but for you, it’s not a part, it’s the way to legendary armor easily. again, pls be honest. Raid lore can be easily achieved with easy mode, encounters, for you, don’t matter since you want to change the mechanics. Teaching and learning, you’re not interested in.
Basically, if you’d like people to stop talking about Legendary armor as a factor of easy mode raids, then the solution is to just agree that they should be part of the easy mode raid reward mechanisms.
but again, 20 pages ago talking about legendary armor in easy mode raid was a thing. So far, you bring nothing new on the topic. Bring something new, and we will read it. But stop recycling things you wrote 20 pages ago, again and again…for me, easy mode raid is not a solution. For you, yes. Anything else to add? if not, then this topic needs to die.
(edited by Hypairion.9210)
Everyone tells me that I should give numbers because they know that I can’t, they can’t NOBODY can, and they’d like me to shut up. Numbers are impossible to provide because we have no means of determining numbers. But we can make reasoned estimates, Fermi calculations based on known factors.
[…]
Anyway, until then neither side can provide numbers, so I just have to press forward on the assumption that the numbers back my position, and again, if that is wrong, ANet knows it, and as they are the ones to decide, they would decide to do nothing. Basically, if you are right, and the numbers do not back me up, then you have nothing to worry about and do not need to spend so much time trying to shut me up.
so basically, your position is : you can’t prove i’m wrong so i will assume i’m right. ok… good presumption for an healthy conversation. But guess what, it works for me too. So again, does that help this topic? not at all…
Continuing to insist that I’m definitely completely wrong on this one is just a sign of insecurity in your position.
or just that i don’t like lies and false assumption, just because of some selfishness and greediness.
Do you not see the inherent contradiction in this? You as well have said nothing original in tens of pages, and you as well want to have the last word, you’d just like to lock the door behind you.
so you agree with me at least, there is nothing new in this topic for the last 20 pages. I guess it about time mods close it ^^
Like it or not, so long as Legendary armor is only available by interacting with raids, Legendary armor is intrinsically tied with raids. Want people to stop talking about Legendary armor in raid discussions? Provide ways to acquire it outside of raids.
this is a topic about raid difficulty settings, not about making legendary armor more accessible. Feel free to make another topic and leave the raid alone pls, especially when you don’t know a lot about it.
There is an off chance that the group I’m fighting for would make up less than 49% of the players, that’s possible, but unlikely. There is no way that it would make up less players than those that are currently raiding, or seriously interested in raiding in its current form.
Again, you have numbers to back up your claims ? If not, please don’t make assumptions…everyone told you that you should give us numbers. We trust numbers, not your words
As for those saying “close the thread,” you’re entirely unnecessary. If you no longer have anything to contribute, you don’t need the thread to be closed, you just need to stop posting. Simple as that and you’re done. But maybe other people have things to discuss on the topic, and it’s not for you to tell them that they shouldn’t have a place to do that.
So you have something new to discuss ? Different argument, better arguments, than in the former 20 pages?
I don’t think so, I read your posts after all. You just want to have the last word, but you bring nothing new.
That’s why too, I ask moderator to close this thread. Everything was told about easy mode, the last pages are just you a few other arguing about legendary armor in easy mode, which is not the topic, and me and some other telling you why it’s à bad idea. No one will change his mind, so why keep discussing ?
(edited by Hypairion.9210)
This was suggested multiple times this thread. But Ohoni still wants an easy mode raid to aquire the armor, most likely because he doesn’t play WvW either.
As I’ve said, I’d be fine with it being available in WvW, and in PvP, but it also needs to be available through some other PvE means, not just raids. PvEers who don’t want to raid don’t want to raid any more than WvWers who don’t want to raid, so why should they be blocked out? The alternate PvE method wouldn’t have to be easy mode raids, I just think that if you’re going to have an alternate method and you’re going to have easy mode raids, then combining the two seems by far the simplest solution.
Irrelevant. There is already a pve way to have legendary armor. Just to be fair, it would be normal WvW and pvp have it next. Then, after, another pve way could be implemented. Asking for a 2nd pve way before all is just greedy and selfish.
This thread is actually pretty funny. The less the people raid, the more they are talking about the toxic raiding community. Maybe you should let actual raider speak about their community…
I pugged a lot of dungeons, and a lot of raids (when I’m not with my guild), and it’s weird because the raiding community is much nicer…Raiding communities are always toxic if you are not in raiding guild or at least in static. This is pretty much a rule, for almost any MMO, because pug raids are usually made by people who barely fit for a leading role. Competent raid leader is rare beast, and they are never staying on pug raid level for long.
And I suppose you pugged à lot in gw2 to back up your claim ? I mean, some week, I pug each night (because i’m borred, sometimes), and I’ve yet to witness the toxic behaviour you’re talking about. But maybe we put diffent meanings in “toxic”.
It’s far more likely to happen in the current situation. Insights could be farmed on VG alone, but having a legendary armor will mean you have finished all of the bosses in the first raid.
And 90% of next raid LFG requirements will be “full legendary armor or kick”. Wooo, I’m already see that friendly raiding community.
This thread is actually pretty funny. The less the people raid, the more they are talking about the toxic raiding community. Maybe you should let actual raider speak about their community…
I pugged a lot of dungeons, and a lot of raids (when I’m not with my guild), and it’s weird because the raiding community is much nicer…
Again we have an assumption that easier mode raid means “effortless”. That thinking is flawed.
Hmm, when we read the advocate of easy raid, their easy mode is really almost effortless, sorry. No wipe mechanisms, no team composition, no team play etc…they want to lower difficulty as dungeon level (which are quite easy now…). The only form of effort I read is doing more easy path in order to have the same reward as normal raid. But since they can’t argument about how transforming skill into time, I’m not at all convinced the amount of effort would be the same.
I have yet to see many of you who oppose say that easier mode would be a great tool to help introduce raids and teach players… or that having a support mode/normal mode and hard mode is a great progression tool for their friends and guildies who don’t want to try… Instead, I see a lot of less than objective comments, ones that revolve around excluding others, basically “l2p” and “time this thread is closed” comments…
You seems to have missed the posts when some raiders have said they would welcome easy raid in order to teach / form more players and introduce them to the raid mechanisms.
Instead, we have a lot of non raider saying that they are not interested in learning, they only want an easy way to have raid rewards. That’s why some of us disagree with them.
Not really it’s more like à logical thing. Raiders are doing raids, so they deserve raid rewards. People that don’t want to do raids don’t deserve the raid rewards. It’s so logical and normal…
Like all other things in gw2…Ofc raiders deserve raid rewards. Raids don’t deserve raid legendary armor being only legendary armor in game, though.
I totally agree with you. That’s why i hope next legendary will come for pvp and wvw. Because pve doesn’t deserve legendary armor being only legendary armor in game, ofc (yes, raid is pve ^^).
And we are. You would get less for easy mode than for hard, requiring you to do easy mode several times to make the equivalent of hard. That is fair. What would not be fair is to say “if you do easy mode, even for months or years, you will NEVER get this reward. You can ONLY get it through hard mode.”
Why is it fair ? If you want it to be fair, you have to provide me the proof that the amount of effort is the same. So far, you fail to do it… Harder work means better rewards, it’s normal.
That’s nice that you would be perfectly fine with that, it’s very magnanimous of you to give up nothing at all in order to make so few players happy, but that’s not what I’d want, and not what would benefit the game. Almost nobody runs Story mode more than once, I know some do, but probably less than currently run raids. We need something that people will want to repeat, at the very least it would need rewards equivalent to the time and effort it would take to complete, which would be equivalent to an exploration-path dungeon.
So, you know what can benefit the game? Whoo, first news…i guess you have proof to back up your claims, with numbers and facts, etc.
Again, I’m not entirely opposed to the easy mode raids offering no path to Legendary, so long as there is some other PvE path of equivalent difficulty, I just see easy mode as being the simplest option to implement.
Equivalent difficulty to hard mode raid, yes.
I’ve discussed this up thread, but I would even be ok with ten times as much, although in that case they’d have to change things up a bit, because if it took say three months realtime to earn the rewards in hard mode, taking 2.5 years to earn it via easy mode is a bit preposterous, but they could make it so that it would take ten times as many runs, but on daily lockout rather than weekly, so that instead of taking 12 runs over 12 weeks to get it in hard mode, it would take 120 runs over 17 weeks on easy mode, or perhaps even a bit more than that (and of course would start months after hard mode, so hard mode people who started when the raid opened would have exclusive access for months before even the most dedicated easy mode people).
Daily easy mode raid is not the equivalent of weekly normal raid. Try again. Your solution is just a little daily grind, another one…
I’m just really tired of this “it’s sooooooooo easy, I can sleepwalk through it” whinging nonsense. That may be true for you, fine. No one cares. It’s not true for most of the people playing this game, and it’s more important that they are happy than that you are happy, because they outnumber you. Playing through a dungeon-level difficulty content IS an effort for most players, and that’s what content should be balanced around, not around what the 1% can pull off.
Irrelevant. Anet chose to put some reward behind à content balanced around some players, yes. And what’s wrong with that ? All other part of the game is balanced for all the other people. So maybe you should stop beeing greedy and selfish and let us enjoy this hard content. I don’t care if you’re not happy either. It’s your choice to restrain yourself.
And btw, without number to back up your claim, I still believe, based on this topic, that you are among the minority.
Many players not doing raids don’t care about legendary armor and don’t feel entitled to have it like you are.
If people want to play hard content like that, then that’s fine, it should be around for them, but they should be playing it because they want the challenge, and their reward is that challenge, not because they want better loot than everyone else gets. If ANet offers you better loot for playing how you enjoy, then you accept it with gratitude and humility, and you don’t throw a fit if they decide to also offer those rewards to your “lessers.” You are not owed that better loot, ANet has gifted it to you. Be grateful, not greedy.
Offer? Gift ? Since we have to put some work and effort, it’s not a gift. We are not owed better loot, we are owned raid loot. You are not owned raid loot because you don’t raid. And you’re just greedy wanting raid loot without wanting to raid.
So you’re saying “if we relax the restrictions at all, then we have to basically just give out everything as log-in rewards?” I don’t think that’s true. All things in moderation, I think that there’s a reasonable middle-ground between the current difficulty of raids and “no effort at all.” The goal is to make them available to most players, which is something the existing raids fail to do.
if we relax the effort, it’s perfectly normal to relax the rewards. Again, think about story dungeon and explorable dungeon. The first one is basically easy mode, with no reward except some money. Easy mode raid could be like that, i will be perfectly fine with that.
I have to assume that your misunderstanding is deliberate, not accidental. You’re better than that. You can be better than that. My point was that the things the raid currently rewards are not what a raid has to reward, and do not belong exclusively to raids in any inalienable manner. They are not inherently raid rewards. The raid currently rewards them, nothing else currently does, but the next patch could come out an the raid could reward different stuff, and the stuff currently being rewarded by raids could be rewarded elsewhere. The raid and raiders do not in perpetuity “own” the rewards currently being offered.
and who are you to decide what a raid can or cannot reward? you’re talking like you’re the only one with the TRUTH. It’s Anet decision, respect it at last ^^
they choose the rewards, and they choose to make it rather exclusive. And it’s your choice not wanting to run the exclusive content in order to have exclusive reward.
Or easy mode raids, for players who do not enjoy PvP, or WvW, or the current hard mode raids. There si no reason to exclude these players from having alternatives.
Just Anet choice, that’s all. Again, no one is excluded. You feel excluded, which is not the same at all.
Because the skill gate should have no value. I mean, if you like skill, that’s great, go for it, and maybe earn the rewards faster that way, but it shouldn’t entitle you to exclusive access to the rewards.
for you, maybe. but again for you, skill is not important. And, btw, we’re not entitle to exclusive reward, we just have raid rewards because we’re doing raid, that’s all. It’s the same as you not having raid rewards because you don’t want to raid.
But I am willing to put in that much, or more effort into doing the easy mode raid. Stop trying to act like me “mastering the raid” would be equivalent to you doing so. Clearly you obtain at least some enjoyment from the raiding process, it is at least somewhat fun for you, or at the very least not so unpleasant that the eventual reward is not invalidated by the struggle. That is not true for everyone.
More effort? how? it’s easy raid, you want it tunned so that almost everyone can beat it. there is no effort in that for many of us. And you talk about more time, but again, for me more time would mean 10 times as us, or more. if you can provide me with a right equation in order to transform skill effort into time effort, which is totally fair for everyone, i will listen to you.
But “raid rewards” Isn’t a thing. “Raid rewards” could be legendary armor, it could also be 50s and a bus pass. The problem isn’t that raiders are expecting to get the rewards ANet said they would, that much is fine, the problem is that they feel 100% comfortable with having legendary armor be exclusive to the content they enjoy, and many of them seem outright hostile to the idea of other players also having access to it through other means.
hmm, of course raid reward is a thing. you beat it, you have rewards. and part of the reward is working toward the precursor of a legendary armor. and i think most raiders are perfectly fine with having legendary armor in other part of the game, such at pvp or wvw. Personnaly, i’m against your idea because you just want to bypass a skill gate by a time gate, which will totally devalue the skill gate. Moreover, you’re not willing to put the same effort as i put in learning raid. And no, time is not the same as skill.
Nobody here is trying to take away anything that raids currently offer. The entire discussion is around the idea of other players also having access to those rewards through other activities, and yet some of the raiders are throwing an absolute fit over the idea. Random nearly had a nervous breakdown. The “entitlement” is not that raiders feel entitled to the rewards they were promised, that’s fair, the entitlement is that they feel they have some sort of exclusive right to those rewards.
wrong. on the contrary, many raiders welcome all the people that want to learn / put some effort. Have you seen all the guides, the videos, etc, made by some raiders?
and again, we are not against having legendary armor in other part of the game (pvp, wvw). that’s just fair. It’s you, wanting your easy mode just tunned fine for you, who seem pretty selfish.
This is nice, but rather. . . convenient when the thing that you must do turns out to be something you enjoy doing and are well prepared to do. That must be so hard on you, bearing that incredible burden.
But again, not a problem that you feel entitled to your reward. The problem, is that you also seem entitled to blocking me from mine. You just seem ungrateful for the gift you’ve been given, that the tasks needed to earn the reward happen to be tasks that you’re willing and able to pursue.
no, the problem is you beeing selfish and unwilling to work for something. So you prefer the content to be tunned for you instead of tunning you for the content. By doing that, you will arm some other people (a lot i think) but you don’t care as long as you have your shinny.
OK let me help you by beeing more accurate
“of course raiders deserve the legendary armor Anet chose to put as a reward behind raid, since they put the necessary amont of work / effort to beat raids, and of course people not wanting to put same amont of effort and not wanting to raid don’t deserve the raid rewards.”Right, that’s what I said. Entitlement.
Not really it’s more like à logical thing. Raiders are doing raids, so they deserve raid rewards. People that don’t want to do raids don’t deserve the raid rewards. It’s so logical and normal…
Like all other things in gw2…
There are just a lot of raiders acting like “Of course raiders deserve Legendary armor, and of course nobody else does."
OK let me help you by beeing more accurate
“of course raiders deserve the legendary armor Anet chose to put as a reward behind raid, since they put the necessary amont of work / effort to beat raids, and of course people not wanting to put same amont of effort and not wanting to raid don’t deserve the raid rewards.”
They shouldn’t be. They’re costume skins, not trophies.
Too bad anet doesn’t think like you. Since the beginning of the game, legendary is more than costume skins.
So you’re saying that Miellyn’s people who beat the raid in greens don’t have or deserve any prestige for that feat? It would only have prestige if they got some fancy hat? Prestige is not a commodity, you can’t buy, sell, or trade it. Prestige is the respect people offer you based on your accomplishments, it has nothing to do with rewards.
Of course it’s prestigious that they can do that (and I know it better than you, because, you know, I raid à lot). What I’m saying is rewards are part of the prestige.
The problem is that you know that easy raids are not as prestigious as normal raid. So you’re trying to split reward from prestige, so you can legitimately claim armor in easy raid.
It definitely shouldn’t be.
Maybe, for you. For Anet and people like me, it should be.
You said, and I quote “Except that since you want raid rewards in easy mode, you want to take away the prestige out of it.”
Rewards have nothing to do with prestige. Which are you talking about? Pick one and be consistent.
OK, who are you trying to fool here? Rewards ARE part of the prestige. No reward, no prestige.
No, I don’t want any medals. Medals can stay restricted to hard mode. I just want the experience and the Legendary armor.
Again, legendary armor is part of the medal (à big part)
I’m willing to put forth effort. You guys are the ones saying “you just want it handed to you,” while I’ve repeatedly said that I want nothing of the sort. I want to have to work at it, just as much as you do, I just want to work at it in a mode that I would enjoy doing just as much as you enjoy playing hard mode. It should take me MORE time and effort to acquire that way, not less, but that’s a sacrifice I’m willing to make in the name of balance.
Hmm, and what is your effort again? Spamming 1, dont care about damage and wipe (because you dont want wipe mechanisms, remember), dont care about composition, build, food, gear etc…ah Yes, you’re willing to spend more times than us, who, that’s a big sacrifice here…3 times as us, if I remember correctly ( and btw, second wing for exemple just need one clear to have all)
So no, for me it’s not effort, it’s à little grind that’s all. If you want to work like us, go raiding.
Nope. Guy approaches the finishline in a marathon, another guy zips past on a bike, nobody says "wow, that second guy was so much faster. People beating easy mode in no way reduces the prestige of people beating hard mode, just as people beating hard mode with Ascended gear does not reduce the prestige of those beating it in greens that Miellyn referenced.
Irrelevant. I’m talking about reward here, not beating the content. If the guy in bike has the same medal than the guy who run the marathon (which is what you want, btw), than you can be sure that there would be no prestige anymore.
That’s irrelevant. If even one person can get credit without deserving it then it devalues the whole process if you view it in such stark terms. People beating it on easy mode would at least not get the full achievements and titles associated with hard mode, so the person buying a run cheapens the prestige far more.
You forget the legendary armor, which is, for Anet, the prestige reward behind raid. Even for you it’s prestigious, if not you wouldn’t spend so many hours trying to make argument here.
The number of people who beat easy mode is completely irrelevant to the prestige of beating hard mode, since it’s not beating hard mode. To make your argument is like saying that people beating Fractal 25 removes any prestige from people beating Frac 100.
Irrelevant. Of course the number is important. The damage you’re willing to make to the raids by making raid rewards available for everyone is far more important than the buyers. At least, they put some effort in earning gold. You, you dont want to put a single effort.
Oh, and btw, many buyers buy raid for the achievements, not for the rewards…so the numbers are even smaller.