Guild Wars 2

Rednik.3809:

Henry.5713:

Although, the degree of demonization towards raids is rather amusing. Opinions seem to range from ‘why raids are not a good idea’ to ‘how raids destroyed this game’. Almost like they are the root of all evil.

When in my opinion raids are the only reason why thousands of players even continued to play this game anymore after HoT.
Why a huge amount of players had to socialize, to form new guilds, found friends, gain experience together and make the game a bit more active and lively.
Why people like me continued to support the game with a few hundred euros over the past year while raids kept them interested. But maybe that is just me.

Raids were successful for their audience. Focusing on raids, however, was made in very wrong way and turned out as complete disaster.

hmm, there was no focusing on raids. You’re just over reacting. Do you forget that raid just had 3 wings in 1 year? And how was it a disaster?

Rednik.3809:

Well, as predicted, revenue drop continued in Q3. LS3 and new fractal managed to compensate a lot and even almost stopped revenue fall, but that was not enough to make them grow. Obviously players need something more that that.

And that as nothing to do with raids, unlike what you believe. Plenty of people told you that already.

People drop games when they feel they have no means of progressing their goals. When you set in things like Legendary armor, and people want that, but the only way to get it is through content that they will not do, then they get disgruntled. And they may not ragequit on the forums, but they do play less, and less, and eventually stop. You can’t tell people in a game “that’s not for you,” and expect them to like it.

So all this discussion because of that…you’re just not happy because you want legendary armors but don’t want to raid. Pls, be honest, you don’t care about raid, all you care about is reward. You’re just looking for any illogical argument that can make you have easier legendary armors at this point.
Again, i know no one that stopped the game because of this reason, except you and some others here on forum.

People who would only play because of raids already wouldn’t be playing the game

Wrong again, my guild for example only plays because of raids (and i know several others guilds in the same boat). But i don’t know a guild that disbanded because of raids. Because of lack of content yes, but that is another story that has nothing to do with raids…

You liked raids. That does not mean that the community liked raids. The dropoff happened AFTER HoT came out, around the time of wing 2.

you dislike raid, that doesn’t mean the community doesn’t like raid. If think you’re just looking for some arguments against raid without any rationnality, because of your feeling about all of this.

Again, no, because the number of people playing raids is not large enough to matter in terms of dropoffs. And if they hadn’t have made the Forsaken Thicket into a raid map, they could have taken that same terrain and enemies and balanced it out as an open map, or as a series of single player (small team) story missions, which would have helped during the content drought. Raid proponents keep talking about how it’s a “small team,” but the size of the team is entirely irrelevant, what matters is what they actually produced, and regardless of their team size, they produced a significant amount of game content when no one else was.

you have numbers? you know precisely why people left? they all told you “raids are so bad, i prefer to leave the game” ? Raid team is small and productive, yes. Maybe you should complain about other team that are not productive enough for you. Again, all i see about you is jealousy because you see people enjoying the game, and you’re not, so you’re here trying to destroy that part of the game so all people be like you.

Ohoni.6057:

Really, your hate on raid made you think silly things…how can you tell that the drop is due to raids? I think that without raids, the drop would have been much more important, so raids saved the PVE in this game.

The drop-off coincided with the release of the raids. I don’t think it could be much clearer than that. And the player rates for raids are not large enough to have any impact on the game’s bottom line. Any impact they do have is on how players outside the raids react to their presence.

No you’re wrong, the drop coincided with HOT, when many things went wrong. Raids are probably the best thing with HOT. I didn’t know, except on forum, any people claiming that because of raids, they stopped playing. Again, on the contrary, without raid, you would probably see a bigger drop-off (and no new content btw, since raid team is a small team)

Ohoni.6057:

Yeah, so expected spike on or around launch, then relatively stable through the launch of HoT, then it shot up considerably with HoT’s launch, and then due to the focus on raiding it quickly dropped below previous stable levels. Hopefully LWs3 will pick things back up a bit, but I still think they need to do something to make right with players over the raids.

Really, your hate on raid made you think silly things…how can you tell that the drop is due to raids? I think that without raids, the drop would have been much more important, so raids saved the PVE in this game.

Rednik.3809:

Hypairion.9210:

yes, and i’ll be waiting the proof that raid, as you claim, will kill the game…you know, proof… (and not lack of content or other actual problem …)

Proof that raids, when being only repeatable content released, are killing game population due to being badly tuned for majority of players?
http://global.ncsoft.com/global/ir/earnings.aspx
Here, feel free to read.

i read, where is it written “raid kill gw2” ? pls tell me

Rednik.3809:

Hypairion.9210:

yes and as a counter exemple, my guild is alive and has grown thanks to raid…

Soon we will get Q3 earnings report from NCsoft, and will see results.

yes, and i’ll be waiting the proof that raid, as you claim, will kill the game…you know, proof… (and not lack of content or other actual problem …)

Rising Dusk.2408:

Rednik.3809:

Before introducing raid content my guild had like 20-30 constant online (with 300+ members, a lot of them are playing since game release) during any EU primetime. Yesterday we barely had 10 to do guild activities, where majority of people are supposed to log in. And situation is not getting any better, because no clear promises about new content were made, and no promises about different approach to raids either. But hey, we got a new raid wing announcement.

Correlation does not imply causation.

yes and as a counter exemple, my guild is alive and has grown thanks to raid…

Here’s the problem with that thinking. Raids aren’t any more difficult than getting to 100 in fractals or mastering the ranks of pvp. Being successful in raids comes down to copying builds off of a website and being lucky/diligent enough to find a group that wants to grind out raids week in and week out.

They are about math, luck and being willing to stepford wife your build and playstyle to the point where everyone in the game will eventually be the exact same (from playstyle and builds all the way through to how we all look with the introduction of a single set of legendary armor).

I know that sounds harsh and a little jaded, but it is the reality of what raids are in GW2 (and that is in no way meant to demean raiders – its Anet’s approach to raid design that is the issue).

So, with that in mind, I say legendary armor (even weapons imo) should reflect a dedication to the entire game, not just to grinding the math and “everyone be a clone now” gamestyle that is raids in GW2.

Nice to know that raid are easy, so there is no problem having legendary armor behind them. After all, there are plenty of rewards behind specific mode game.

Blaeys.3102:

We need to get the conversation back on track and stop with the continual efforts focused solely on closing it down.

There are several very good reasons this thread should remain open and this conversation should continue:

This is a reoccurring theme that will not go away
We see new threads started – across multiple forums – on this topic on a pretty consistent basis (by different people just about every time). That isn’t going to stop. Rather than have a conversation with dozens of starts and stops, there should be one place for all of the ideas.

The idea that this only matters to a small group is a myth
This conversation has been going on for more than 2 years now. Yes, now the push is coming almost exclusively from a small group of zealous players (like me) and people new to the raiding scene (the “I cant find a group posts” that keep popping up) and the backlash seems to be a little larger (I claim that is because this conversation is taking place in the raiding subforum where, naturally, there are more fans of the current system). But that wasn’t always the case. In the early days of this dialogue, there were a lot of people asking for something more. Look at the CDI for the best examples – The top 4-5 requests when people were asked what they wanted in raids were almost always centered around accessibility, scaling and making sure people weren’t left to the side because of how they play. Many of those people no longer post – most likely because they feel they lost the fight back then (a sentiment I don’t agree with).

Over time, many of those people were also worn down by the constant criticism and hate directed to them by a small group who refuse to see any need for change – but that doesn’t mean they aren’t still there (in fact, I know they are – I have talked to dozens in game). The sad reality is that it is very hard to post about this and have a real discussion because of the backlash from that small group of players rather than any lack of substance.

If anything, we probably lost a sizeable number of those players entirely based on the drought and being left out of the one thing Anet did release in that time frame.

Out of sight, out of mind
Again, this is a topic that matters. Over time, the conversation has dwindled (for the reasons I state above), but it still matters. Even if the developers choose to never change the raiding model, they need the constant reminder that there is a group of players out there who remain unhappy with the current content model.

There may be new ideas we haven’t heard yet
This one is pretty self explanatory. When new ideas arise, they need to be viewed in context with the larger conversation – not just with people like me, but with people on the other side of the argument as well. That is what helps the community foster new ideas.

If it were up to me, all of the threads on this topic would be merged – and then stickied. This conversation is obviously important to people long term.

Now, with that said, PLEASE refrain from simply trying to shut down the conversation and let’s get back to having it.

Use your own advice..you own posts add nothing to the subject since a long time, you’re just saying over and over the same thing, without new idea. So please restrain yourself for posting if you have nothing more to add.

Ohoni.6057:

The majority of actual raiding guilds don’t even touch the easier modes and the vast majority of players who do play the easier modes do not touch the higher difficulty modes. That’s very easy to check if you see the world first clears are on hard mode versions while the number of people who finish the easy modes are a lot more than the people who do the harder modes (no shock there).

I’m not really sure what your point is, but everything you said in there sounds really great. Let’s import that all to GW2, stat!

Yes sure, and ofc without reward, except 2 greens and one blue. You know, like in story mode dungeon. I’m sure you’ll be happy to enjoy easy mode raid, isn’t ?

Making easy mode content based on existing raids is changing existing content, it is making them easier which is what raids were never supposed to be. Again you were never the target audience for Raids you just want them to cater to you because of a shiny, I bet if Raids didn’t have the allure of legendary armor you would have no issue with them being as difficult as they currently are.

and, yes, the shinies are, for some people (but not all) what is driving them to easy mode raid (but they won’t admit it ^^)

Rednik.3809:

maddoctor.2738:

Stop arguing that and stop generalizing like a broken jukebox. I even provided an EXAMPLE of how the EASY MODE AS YOU EXPECT IT WON’T BE USED FOR TRAINING. Notice the AS YOU EXPECT IT part. Notice the SPECIFIC EXAMPLE I GAVE. I’m not saying that an EASIER mode for Raids cannot be used for training. I’m saying that changing how the most important mechanic based abilities of bosses work will make it USELESS for training. And I even GAVE AN EXAMPLE about it. Want to lower the boss HP? Want to lower their attack damage? The number of adds? The damage they deal? Their hit points? Lower the enrage timer? FINE. Want to change how fundamentally a skill works then it’s not FINE. It’s not the same encounter anymore, it has zero value for any kind of training outside your let’s “play pretend make-believe”.

Except that it already works just like that in WoW, and works fine. I don’t know why people here are trying to oppose against proven and working raid models with empty theories straight out of their heads.

Maybe because people have proven to you a lot of times that it didn’t work but you just refuse to acknowledge it? and you keep saying the same thing over and over without new arguments?

Just admit all you want is to get the Envoy Armor in an easy way and forget the whole training issue. At least you’d be honest.

No, that would be lying to appease you, which I won’t do. I want both things.

Funny, why don’t you talk about how having legendary armor in easy mode raid? maybe because you’re part of the tiny minority that want both, and you know your ideas would be unfair to all actual raiders…

it will depend if you pug or not raid. When i raid with my guild, someone likes engi, so he brings it (power or condi), and we got no problem (because engi dps is really fine, just difficult to master compared to other classes). So if you pug, they won’t trust you and will prefer a condi ranger for example, easier to play and with comparable dps…

Rednik.3809:

Hypairion.9210:

why are you saying raids are disastrous for general population? actually, all i see are the same people ranting about them on general forum, but no where else i see a negative impact on the game (no rant in map chat etc…). so i guess you’re just projeting your own opinion for all the general people that don’t play raid. I will do like you, and for my point of view, raids are great, and i know a lot of people who would have stopped playing without raids, so raids are good for the game population.

How about reading posts that you quoting before writing an answer? Or maybe you are be so kind and show me where I said that raids are disaster instead of their implementation?
Negative impact was for game population. People are just leaving because no content to play, because Anet made raids, but never bothered to make anything to help majority of players start doing them. And without proper repeatable and rewarding content to do – population dying. This is not opinion, this is a rule for any MMO. Raids are rewarding but too hard for starter without experience and pug community is making things a lot worse. At the same time, dungeons are literally dead and abandoned (woo, lets nerf rewards, surely this will do good for everyone), fractals was in nearly abandoned state (woo, golden weapons and backpack. What is new fractals?) and living story was postponed again and again (Biweekly updates? Quarterly updates? Hello?). And don’t even start on new maps, outside of some starting quests they are grind and nothing more.

In all your posts you criticize raids and how they are implemented…i still don’t see where is the failure, apart from a very vocal minority here on the forums. I’ve yet to witness it in game.
You’re blaming raids for all that you think is bad in this game, maybe you ‘re over reacting. for many people, including devs, raids are a success. And Yes, I don’t have numbers, but so do you…

Rednik.3809:

Sarrs.4831:

We have multiple cases of developers or VIPs on the forums stating that the raids punched above their weight, including “more players raided than we expected” and “raids are helping player retention” and “raids are wildly successful”. The resources that were spent on the initial release seem to have paid off.

With this in mind, why would you draw the conclusion that an increased audience is necessary for the mode to carry its weight?

Except that monetary statistics says otherwise. Raids ofc turned out to be great quality content by themselves, and 5-3% of constant raiders is probably more then they are expected, but for general game population that focusing on raids turned out to be disastrous. And by complete absence of repeatable content outside of raids we can say pretty clear that anet devs are unable to keep pace on all directions. So as I said before, it will either turn out as dropping raids like they did with fractals after first year and focus on releasing more casual content, or they will make future raid content way more diverse and fit for casual audience to jump right into.

why are you saying raids are disastrous for general population? actually, all i see are the same people ranting about them on general forum, but no where else i see a negative impact on the game (no rant in map chat etc…). so i guess you’re just projeting your own opinion for all the general people that don’t play raid. I will do like you, and for my point of view, raids are great, and i know a lot of people who would have stopped playing without raids, so raids are good for the game population.

Astralporing.1957:

maddoctor.2738:

We don’t have a dedicated Fractal team though, or a dungeon team, haven’t you noticed?

We might have had one, if we didn’t have Raid team though.

Your hate on raids, as demonstrated in almost all the posts on this topic, makes you totally blind. There is no dungeon team since 3 years or more, way before any raid. And fractals are still remade, so people are working on them.

Vayne.8563:

I tried PvPing to do get the legendary back piece. I don’t enjoy PvPing and that almost ruined the game for me, until I decided to stop.

Sure I could raid, but it would destroy the game for me. Completely and utterly destroy it. Therefore I won’t have legendary armor.

Since I want legendary armor, my choice is to destroy the game for myself, or to not get it.

Since I’m not sure either choice is exceptable to me, and I see more and more rewards I have to not enjoy the game to get, I start wondering if the future of this game is for me.

I won’t make a big deal if and when I leave this game, I’m just going to leave.

Legendary armor locked behind content I never have intention to do doesn’t encourage me to keep playing.

i dont understand this mindset. No one has to have all in game. if you trully are ready to quit because you want legendary armor but don’t want to raid, maybe indeed this game is not for you anymore. Or you should join a training guild and kill one or 2 boss a week… or maybe just buy boss kill.
Legendary armor is both a reward for mastering challenging content and a carrot to bring people into raid (even if i know a lot of people who would still raid without legendary armor).

The solution is probably to wait until another set of legendary armor is released for open world pve-ers.

That’s why when we need to pug the last spot in a guild run, we only ask to know the mechanics… If someone joins us and is new, he is kicked, but if he’s decent, he’s staying.

Rednik.3809:

Hypairion.9210:

Are you a dev hidding among us, to know exactly what can be easily done and what can’t ?

Oh, maybe you will name some encounters that require these mythical HUGE efforts to remake instead of simple number tweaks?

You’ll always answer with a question when you don’t know the answer ?
Hmm, gorseval, Sabetha to begin with. Probably Slothazor and xera too. But all will need some works, even if you don’t want to hear that. But I’m not a dev, so sure I’m underestimating the necessary work…
And btw, maybe you forget it, but multiple difficulties mean multiple kind of rewards. So all the reward system would need to be reworked with your solution, to accomodate all players.

Rednik.3809:

Raid team is not fractal/LS team. And resource-wise 40% of players able to play 1 raid is much better than 10% of players playing 3 raids, though making more difficulties for one raid will certainly take MUCH less resources than making 2 more new raids.

Are you a dev hidding among us, to know exactly what can be easily done and what can’t ?

Sometimes I just wish research fonction work in this forum. This subject was discussed quite à few time already, and nothing new will émerge here. There is almost no story in raids, and make several difficulty modes will be just a waste of dev ressources.

Daniel.5428:

Small minority? The maps are full with ppl who have max mastery lvl. All you need is to do one raid boss. You can do W3 escort event( easiest) where people usually don;t care about LI and experience in raids. Or, if not, you can buy Vale Guardian for 40-50 gold…..Ppl throw more than 50gold in mf weekly then they come here and cry about not being able to unlock their raid mastery. Raids are ok as they are and they are not gonna change just because some ppl wants to get carried.

Exactly, but there are some people here on the forum that will use many topics in order to say their hate about raids, and how about dev made a mistake with them.

I think a lot of people here forget that raid masteries can be unlocked with first event of the 3rd raid wing, which is not a boss fight, doesn’t require meta gear, food etc…Just watch a vidéo or read à guide. I think some gold aventure are way harder than this…

Can’t dodge while I’m knocked down. Can’t use shroud if you get one shot. Endurance regen isn’t even a factor for something you couldn’t dodge.

Did you even read my post? 32k hp in ONE hit. That’s a bit much don’t you think?

But ofc all the idiots will say “just learn to dodge”, or “you have shroud”, as if i dont already kittening know that.

Dodge the knockdown. Simples.

Or just the OP could use a stun break…guess all of these solutions are too hard…

FrostDraco.8306:

I’ll answer that. My necro has 32k hp, and bloomhunger was still able to oneshot me in scale 89. And it does a lot of 24k+ hits. Which I think is complete BS.

My problem isnt his mechanics. Those are easy. My problem is that even with a tanky build his numbers are way too overtuned. But perhaps its my fault for not kicking the garbage condi necro’s that were in squad. Who knows.

And dont you see a problem with the fact that many glassy people have no pb with this fractal, while you’re dying as a necro with 32k hp? So either you’re a troll, or you need to learn to dodge (not very difficult)

Astralporing.1957:

sanddrake.3089:

kitten …….. Whelp, no choice but to grind those achievements, ty for answering my question

Just remember, that one of the mastery lines is locked behind raids. If you don’t raid, wou won’t be able to complete it – and that means no xp in Heart of Thorns and LS3 areas.

Not really, you just need to kill one boss or do one raid event such as escort or trio (which are really easy). After that, no need to step à foot in raid if you dont want to.

druid & 4 necro, cliffside 94 without a problem. easy solution for easy pugging…

Rauderi.8706:

Aside from the very, very high-end groups that run the content before the guides are made, this actually incredibly common. Raid mentality involves tons of “research” through YouTube videos with AMV background music and copying those who were already successful.

That’s probably the main reason why I can’t believe most raiders when they say they want a “challenge”. Most of them just want the exclusive loot after the thought-work has been done for them.

Then, explain to me why many raiders I know repeat the raids several times a week, even after clearing all wings monday. Or why some raiders low man raid bosses…

Menadena.7482:

Care to try again? The closest I have come to there is the aerodome to get the waypoint for LA completion. I have absolutely no problem with people suggesting things for a new PVE build when asked. In fact I often ask for it myself to see if the current thinking has changed due to nerfs since I last leveled that profession. What I do have a problem with are min/maxers getting in mapchat or such and criticizing builds people are using just fine, especially when they have no intention of raiding or have not stated what mode they want it for.

Read the OP problem. He wants to raid, but not with meta builds, hence this topic. Your first comment was totally off topic, that’s all.

Menadena.7482:

I am more than happy to let the min/max people get away from the rest of us and hang out in raids or such. Unfortunately they insist on bringing their gaming culture everywhere, like gaming missionaries forcing their ideas on everyone.

The problem is when people like you force their way into raids, for example, when there are already some min \ max players…

hmm op in your picture, you’re using signet of the hunt and a shortbow. No matter why you think your dps is low then (shortbow is a condi weapon and you seem to be in a zerk armor).

Swagger.1459:

No, that’s what you assume… No ingame activity will ever be rewardless. “Easy” mode raids would still remain the most challenging pve content so the devs are not going to cut out rewards.

Let’s not get into discussions of “vocal minorities” here and I’ll let you figure out why.

There are a number of games who have done these “things” successfully and it’s the rational thing to do. Thankfully the devs are looking into it and I’m sure we will hear something soon.

so tell me why easy mode should have the same reward as normal mode? i dont see any logic behind that…

the truth is that raid are easy, there are a lot of training initiative, but some people don’t want to raid and want the reward. That’s the problem here…

Astralporing.1957:

thrag.9740:

An easy mode without rewards could increase the population engaging in raids, but still push all the new players towards hard mode.

An easy mode without rewards will be as popular as dungeons were after the rewards nerf (so, pointless).

The solution might be to increase current level raid rewards (in quantity, not quality) after introducing easy mode. It’s not like they are all that good currently anyway (exclusivity does not confer longevity, it works only short term until players obtained everything they wanted).

except easy mode purpose is not to allow people to obtain normal raid reward… most people want easy mode for lore and enjoying a little the raid fight. Some vocal minority doesn’t want to raid but just want raid rewards…

Lord Kuru.3685:

It looks like raids might be a big part of GW2’s recent massive drop in revenue. So OP might be worried about nothing. I expect at most one more raid before they’re cancelled for the next new “game saving” project.

do you have any source for that? i’m interested.

No no my friend, I’m talking about the actual raid and the difficulty settings the devs are looking into.

Are you talking about the dev sentence in april in reddit, or did I miss a more recent announcement ?

Édit: just saw the dev com on reddit about how T4 fractals (and Bloom T4 particularly) are meant as a step to raid difficulty. Anet think that T4 are too easy, so they want to buff them in order to make people used to the raid difficulty. Nice move !

https://www.engadget.com/2012/09/17/arenanet-talks-guild-wars-2-dungeon-difficulty/

There ya go. The word endgame is not specifically used. However, the references to Elite areas in GW make it clear dungeons were intended to be equivalent content. Elite areas were very much the endgame PvE in GW, especially hard mode elite areas.

Dungeons were seen as very hard by a lot of players around launch. Since then, we’ve had multiple nerfs. Most were not specifically aimed at dungeons, but some were. Players got better. [shrugs] So, sure, dungeons are seen as trivial, now — but it was not always that way.

Elite, as orr areas ? And players at the begenning of the game were not very comfortable with their class. So something that was hard at the begenning may be trivial today with the actual meta.

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/countdown-to-launch-raids/

still not the same as this for me ^^ I continue to think that the target audience is not the same between raid and dungeon. Thus, i can agree to a nerf to dungeon, as more players were involved. And the powercreep didn’t help of course.

But something is true about dungeons and raids, players are becomming better, and wing 1 is becomming trivial in a pug settings.

I’m not disagreeing with you. They totally did say that. And they also said it about plenty of other content in the game that later got nerfed.

Sources for the later? I don’t remember them saying that (challenged end content) for something else than raid actually…

ALL that stuff was “meant to be hard.” Dungeons were meant to be hard. Teq 2.0 was meant to be hard. Hot open world was meant to be hard. The players disagreed, ANet fixed them. You can argue it won’t happen to raids, and maybe it won’t, but if history is anything to go by, they’ll do something, and if you’re lucky it will be an easy mode, rather than just a straight nerf to the one and only version.

Again, you’re wrong. I’m on my phone so I can’t find the links, but from the beginning of raids, anet started that they will be the challenged end pve content, not make for everyone. It’s à design choice. Find me the same things about dungeons for example…

And one dev on reddit spoke about thinking about an easy mode. Again, find me sources about nerfing actual content, or adding raid loot to the easy mode (you know, like for story dungeon…)

Basically pretty much all content in the game has followed a pattern where they’ve made something a bit too hard, and the “hardcore” players really loved that, but the average player found it frustrating, so they nerfed it.

The difference is that raid ARE meant to be hard, so there is no point in nerfing them (won’t happen). And if they follow the dungeon and fractal way with an easy mode, hmm, these instances have got different rewards for their easy mode (so if they follow this path, why not)

And if you’re right about that, then I’m no threat to you, and there’s absolutely no reason for you to try to crash every thread that discusses this topic because nothing would come of it anyway.

I disagree with everything you’re saying, so i answer each time you’re talking. It’s a forum after all…

But that aside, it’s far from just the two of us, we just happen to talk a lot more than the other guys, and that’s the problem with forums, they are a breeding ground for confirmation bias and unscientific sampling. Because me and Astral talk about the issue a lot, you seem convinced that not only are we the only two talking about it (we are not), but also the only people who care (which is preposterous). And since ANet keeps moving any thread about easy mode raid from places like the General Discussion, to the Dungeon/raid forum, which is more heavily populated by people invested in the current raid, it gives a false impression of the number of players who care.

But of course it’s impossible for players outside the game to get any sort of scientific data on either side of this topic, I cannot prove that there are large numbers of players who want an alternative, and you obviously can’t prove that there are not. ANet are the only ones in any position to determine the actual numbers, and they have or will. I can do nothing to convince you my numbers are right, and you cannot do anything to convince me that yours are, so it’s a rather pointless topic to discuss.

I’m seeing no one in game talking about that. I know forum and reddit are not representativ, that’s why i ask people in map chat too… again, no one is as greedy as you 2.

The point is, you keep using the number of people as an argument. But it’s not, you have no numbers. So, stop using it.

The point of this thread is not to decide whether anything should be done, that is entirely out of our hands. The point is to decide that if something IS to be done to make these players happy, what’s the best way to do that?

yes, and we’re telling you your solution won’t make more people happier. It will make the few like you happier, that’s all. Lore instance can make more people happier, i’m not denying that. Putting raid rewards behind easy raid, not. It’s all my right to give my opinion.

You say that, and yet they’ve had a fairly consistent history of doing exactly that with previous content when the general game population was displeased by it. Again, if you’re right and it’s completely inconceivable that they would make any changes in our favor, then why so scared?

What history of nerfing instanced content? again i’m curious. I’m seeing story mode dungeon and easy fractal having different rewards, both in quality and quantity, and that’s the closest to your easy mode raid.

And where is the general game population whom you’re talking about? You, astral and 1 and 2 others? You’re just the minority… in game, reddit or in forum, i didn’t see more people like you.
People are either raiding, non raiding (without caring about rewards), or non raiding but wanting raid lore (that i can understand, even if the lore is minimal). Not wanting raiding and still wanting raid reward, just you and a few other. So until you have proof to back up your claims, you’re not representativ of the general game population. (because since you want to change the situation, you are the one to show us your proof)

Dead lift a 150lb. weight over your head once, or dead lift a 50lb. weight over your head three times, you’re still lifting a total of 150lb., and deserve to be compensated for that equally.

No. Not even close the same effort.

You keep making arguments like that as if it supports your position, but I always see it as just the opposite. If 90% of the game is at a certain level of difficulty, then shouldn’t that indicate that the majority of the game’s population likes that level of difficulty? I mean, if the majority of the game were raid-hard, and people played it anyway, then it would be fair to say that this was a “raid-hard” game, for “raid-hard” players, and that there would be no practical purpose for any easy content, because people who enjoyed that would not enjoy the other 90% of the game and it would be a waste of time.

But if 90% of the game is “so easy” by your standards, and yet hundreds of thousands of players enjoy it that way, then shouldn’t the entire game be designed to make that sort of player happy? Isn’t making content that is significantly harder than that 90% a huge waste of time? I think it’s fine that they make a mode of the content that is significantly harder, but I don’t think it’s fair that this would be then ONLY version of the content available. If the overwhelming majority of the game’s players enjoy a certain type of content, then ALL the content should be built around making those players happy first and foremost. They should never feel left out or left behind by an entire set of content, or blocked out of getting rewards.

so be logical, and ask for the removal of wvw and pvp. Just keep open world pve (obviously more players there).
You’re just so wrong. All because you want raid loot you’re trying to make arguments for your point of view.

That would be a fair solution to the imbalance, but not one that I think any of us would actually prefer. Better than keeping things as they are though.

What imbalance? i’m sincerely curious… It’s not because you’re not happy by the situation that there is an imbalance, you’re not the center of gw2…

Thao.3947:

All i can read here is that only true raiders deserve a legendary armor. So i think Anet should axe raid development like they did with the new legendary weapons.
No raids, no legendary armor … problem solved.

so read again. most of raiders agree with legendary armor in other game mode (pvp, wvw, or even an open world version). Just not give the raid armor for free for people just wanting to afk 1111 some times…

Of course. But then, i’m not the one that thinks he deserves more than others, so i’m perfectly fine with that.

but you think that easy mode raid deserve same rewards as normal raids… that’s the same. same reward for less effort…

And here you go again, taking enjoyment in the fact that other players don’t have it as well as you do. I’m so sure that this way of thinking is having a real positive effect on the community.

i dont think he’s taking enjoyment, it’s just a fact. You and Ohoni would still be there in the forum wanting easy way to have raid rewards. But if we’re talking about taking enjoyment, i’m pretty sure you’ll be pretty pleased if raids were cancelled. such a nice community indeed.

Astralporing.1957:

I sincerely hope there aren’t any. At least not until they manage to think of ways to fix the attached problems that created the backlash agains this content.

Again, what backlash ? Didn’t see any, except 2 or 3 people ranting here and on reddit about it…the only minor problem I see is from à story / lore perspective, and LS 3 will resolve that (OK with trinket and new stats too)

That’s a tautological argument. There is nothing about raiding that makes you inherently deserving of better rewards. Right now, in the game, raiding offers certain rewards that other content does not. The same is true of killing the Shadow Behemoth in Queensdale. If the patch comes out, and they add some other method of earning the current raid rewards, then players who earn them that way will deserve them exactly as much as you do now.

I’m not saying that you do not currently deserve the rewards you’ve worked towards, but I am saying that you are in no way owed perpetual exclusivity of those rewards from other methods of earning them.

Except there are plenty of mode games having exclusive rewards. That is just normal. Look at fractal skins for examples, or wvw rewards, etc etc. Raid rewards deserve to stay behind raid. But of course, a legendary armor should be obtained behind pvp or wvw for example, or open world pve why not.

Because this is a game, not a job simulator. It’s not about what people are owed, it’s about what people will enjoy, and if more people will enjoy having something then that is a good thing for the game overall. I would now expect you to raise numerous strawmen that have already been shot down in this thread, but I hope beyond hope that you’re better than that.

yes it’s a game, so people should play it. With your logical, no need to play, i will afk at LA and be waiting for the rewards (because maybe i enjoy afk at LA). So if more people enjoy afking, they should be rewarded for that (again, that’s your logic here). You’re just not happy because there is a shiny you will never have (because you’ll never change your mind). And so what? You keep on saying the same arguments over and over. People have shown you the solutions, but you refuse to see it. And we both know what will happen to this thread, again…

Ohoni.6057:

Same rewards in quality in easy mode raid, aka free legendary. You’re mistaking grind versus effort, but that’s not new coming from you. It’s so nice of you to agree that quantities could differ…But for us, quality matters too.

Well, you do not deserve to have a quality of loot that other players cannot have, so if Anet agrees, you’ll just have to make due with sharing.

i’m raiding, so i deserve raid rewards. No one is preventing you from doing the same (except yourself of course). i’m happy to see new players raiding, so, see, i’m happy to see raid rewards for more people. All people can have these rewards, no one is denying that from them. but not all are willing to put some efforts, but that their problem.

What makes you believe that someone not willing to play the content deserve the content reward? (except a selfish desire of course).

But that’s not what I’m arguing for, and that you’ve gotten to page 8 and believe that of me shows how little effort you’ve put into understanding where I’m coming from here.

Same rewards in quality in easy mode raid, aka free legendary. You’re mistaking grind versus effort, but that’s not new coming from you. It’s so nice of you to agree that quantities could differ…But for us, quality matters too.