Guild Wars 2

In most games, the sole point of crafting is to, as the OP wishes, make stuff for alts as they level. This is so because — in general — low to mid tier mats are cheap, and drops of gear are rare enough that it’s more economical to make gear rather than buy it. In GW2, however, the sole point of crafting is to be able to make max tier gear and for crafting mats to drive the GW2 economy. Add that focus to the multitude of blue and green drops the game throws at players, and the crafting v. buying thing is reversed.

The discrepancy between GW2 crafting and crafting in a more traditional MMO is due to the fact that in those other games, max tier gear cannot be made by crafting. In GW2, not only can it, but for many players it is the best method to get that gear.

While I understand the OP’s complaint, I also understand what the crafting system in GW2 is designed to do. Since there is a viable alternative to gearing alts, I am OK with the system as is. I’d rather that the mats I gather be worth something, and in those other MMO’s, that is often not the case. So, no, the GW2 crafting system is not broken, it’s just that the OP is expecting crafting to work the way it does in some other games.

As to why have recipes for sub-max crafting tiers? They exist primarily so that players can advance their crafting to the level where it’s useful.

All that said, would it be so bad to do as the OP asks and drop leather from mid-tier recipes? On the face of it, maybe not. However, every change ANet makes to the game generates complaints. Most people seem content to gear alts via the TP. Some people who take crafting seriously could be upset that recipes are not consistent across tiers. Not requiring leather at all is different than requiring less. Finally, you know that people who want their Ascended gear as cheap as possible would point at the mid-tier recipes and demand that ANet drop leather from max tier recipes also.

If you choose to do the reward tracks for the Gift and Dungeon tokens, and have any experience boosters, they give +50% to reward track gain in PvP/WvW.

While I don’t care about how useless the NPC’s are, you’re right that they are generally useless.

It’s unfortunate that gear plays such a major part in MMO game design, but that’s the nature of the beast. MMO’s live due to long-term goals, and gearing up has always been part of that process. Of course, there are side benefits, such as profiting by selling the mats needed to create said gear.

Unfortunately, the concept of good sportsmanship seems to turn up missing more and more on the internet as time goes on. This behavior is just one symptom.

The various environments are arguably the best feature of the game. No, I have no trouble getting immersed in the environments, though I do have several issues that hinder my enjoyment of the stuff that occurs within those environments.

Khisanth.2948:

vesica tempestas.1563:

you can get ascended from pvp, wvw, fractals, crafting etc, for example 1 season of spvp will give you almost a full set of ascended armor.

That almost is one of the most perplexing choices they’ve made.

It’s probably part of the ongoing initiative to entice players who play one mode only into other modes. Asc. via PvP could work both ways. A WvW or PvE player might go into PvP because he doesn’t want to dungeon/raid/craft or a PvP player sees he can go through the Asc. gearing up process by playing his preferred mode.

Rewards in the form of virtual stuff given for participation and/or “winning” in an MMO drive the MMO genre. Why? The average human brain is going to get bored doing MMO content long before the developer can produce something new. So, developers use virtual carrots to keep players playing (and paying). Over time, the MMO consumer has come to expect rewards. It doesn’t hurt that the fantasy game paradigm was fueled by fantasy PnP RPG’s in which characters kill things and take their stuff. By this time, rewards are hard-wired into both RPG’s and MMO’s.

What GW2 tried to do was to present a tiered reward system in which most things are very easy to obtain. This was (probably) done to allow people who don’t want to devote the (large amounts of) time usually required for typical MMO reward systems. Based on reports, WoW has also been moving towards more immediate gratification. However, back in GW2, some rewards (Legendaries, some MF recipes, and to some degree full Ascended) take more effort. With some exceptions, though, most of what’s needed to get those time-consuming rewards can be gained via a wide variety of play-styles. It’s worth noting that we still see complaints about the exceptions.

So, what GW2 offers is a lot of rewards that are easy to get, and most of what’s left is gained via incremental means (250 T6 Mats, for instance). What GW2 has little of is serendipitous rewards (usually RNG drops of things that actually produce gratification that one’s character has “progressed.”) This is typically in MMO’s a power gain, though it could easily be a horizontal or even cosmetic gain.

There is a fundamental disconnect between players complaining about lack of reward and ANet. How do I know? Every time the complaints about lack of reward reach a kind of critical mass, ANet increases player ability to gain the incremental rewards needed to make their endgame goals, all of which require massive collections that a lot of people will use a spreadsheet or 3rd party site to track, they increase player ability to gain those materials. Just look at the amount of rewards HOT maps throw at us compared to core maps. Despite the (to me) ludicrous drops of salvage bait, these increases make no impact on the “not rewarding” complaints.

What’s really going on is that players who are complaining miss the sensation of satisfaction from serendipitous rewards. While GW2 has some, the incremental rewards are more desirable (Asc. and Legendaries) and complaints about low chance RNG mar the player experience of the existing serendipitous rewards.

So, players looking for the exhilaration of a rare drop are by and large doomed to disappointment while players looking to amass gold by selling the huge numbers of component mats needed for incremental rewards make virtual bank.

AliamRationem.5172:

It’s okay to love Tangled Depths. I mean, isn’kitten

It’s OK to smile at the kitten filter.

ANet’s design statements while they were making GW2 indicated that they were trying to avoid what they saw as too many combinations of skills. They chose to do so because they were trying to avoid the difficulty in balancing they had with the original game. I’m pretty sure they specifically said secondary professions would not be included in GW2 for the above reason.

Once in a while, I see something like this… or that…

http://metabattle.com/wiki/MetaBattle_Wiki

On the off chance there is something on this site you do not know.

Good luck.

For a historical perspective…

• When the game launched, there were no log in rewards. Most of what they offered was a reward for dailies, which could be completed largely by playing anywhere one wanted, as long as one wanted to run around in PvE. WvW preference players had to leave WvW on some days to get 5 tasks done. PvP preference players had to leave PvP most (if not all days) to get 5 tasks done. Anyone who did not log in on a given day did not get the rewards for that day.
• Some of the rewards were in monthlies. Those who did not log in every day could complete the monthly tasks. However, in the first iteration, there was no choice as to tasks, and WvW kills was usually a task.
• Since then, dailies have changed several times, with the tasks becoming more specific.
• Monthlies have been eliminated.
• When log-in rewards were introduced, most of the daily rewards were shifted to log in (the notable exception was the AP), and new daily reward chests were added.
• Rewards for play in general (i.e., not connected to dailies/monthlies/login) have gone through the roof by comparison with the reward structure at launch.

From a game design perspective, what’s going on is this.

• Daily rewards from launch through now have always been incentives to play daily.
• Log in rewards shifted some of the emphasis to logging daily, rather than actually being “forced” to play.
• There once was a reward structure that players like the OP could complete. Of course, monthlies are no longer available.
• Players who play sporadically can get most of the login rewards by playing rewarding content, earning gold and using it to buy mystic coins, Exotic gear, Black Lion goods, etc.
• The only thing that cannot be “made up” is Laurels, afaics.
• ANet has consistently stood by their decisions to keep rewards assigned to specific activities where they put them. The exceptions to this have been to allow players who prefer to avoid PvE to gain access to some formerly PvE exclusive rewards. This suggests that while they consider game mode preferences to be legitimate reasons to broaden access to rewards, with few exceptions they do not consider, “I don’t want to do X.” within a game mode to be a legitimate reason. There’s a lot of precedent for that stance across every MMO I’ve seen. In fact, most of them didn’t even offer same rewards across PvE/PvP modes.

Ashen.2907:

I did not particularly care for these before, but didnt hate them either. As long as they were additions to the existing list rather than replacements…sure, why not.

This. Though I doubt the efficacy of dailies as a teaching tool. There’s too much randomness and visual clutter in events done by groups for people that don’t already know to be able to pick out what’s happening.

If you purchased the day before the sale, contact Support. There have been forum posts saying that ANet refunded the difference when someone bought shortly before a sale in the past.

Tatwi.3562:

Now, I understand that the login rewards exist simply to entice people to view the advertisements in the Gem Store, so I know there is no incentive for ArenaNet to allow the player to reduce the number of sessions. However, it sure would be nice for those of us who may only want to play a few times a month!

There’s another reason. Game companies keep data as to numbers of players who log in. Those login metrics can fuel statements as to the health of the game. This is a different kind of advertising, aimed at potential customers. If ANet were really using daily log-in incentives as the means to push gem store items, we’d see the gem store front page popping up on logging in. As it is, players only see the store if they choose to.

You’re right about one thing, but you didn’t go far enough. “There is no incentive for ArenaNet to allow players to reduce the number of sessions” and still get rewards.

Need? No. However, WvW is meant not only to simulate large-scale conflict, but also to replace open world PvP in other MMO’s PvE zones. That game preference has always included stacking as many numerical advantages as possible, then applying skill.

maddoctor.2738:

I disagree and I gave an example with how the fire traits for Eles should work to support condition damage and a defensive playstyle but they do not because the traits are underwhelming for that job. Missing traits for those roles is another problem, there is no major defensive trait in Fire, and no Grandmaster condition trait. In my opinion each specialization should be given 3 roles and support all 3 equally. Or offer a clear variation of single role (like Air having 2 different damage role options)

OK? So, questions:

• How many roles are you going to support?
• Are they going to be traditional roles (tank, heal, damage, etc.) or more like the roles that have evolved in GW2 meta play (defensive boon support, bunker, might stacker, etc.)?
• What are you going to do with Minor traits, which mostly support one role as is (e.g., Water Minors are all healing related)?
• If one is going to adopt, for example, the condi damage role, would there be opportunity costs across trait lines, or would there just be three lines one would “need” to take, with the traits a no-brainer? Either way, how do you see that change adding diversity? Meta play is going to settle on the roles perceived as needed for the content and will identify the best build choices for that role. Even if your proposed change created other viable options, how would you force players looking for the optimal build to be willing to accept those other options?

maddoctor.2738:

I’m not sure about all builds but for certain professions I’m sure in the “old days” before HoT that third trait slot was taken by a very specific traitline for nearly all builds. Thief builds were using Trickery as their third line, Elementalists were using Arcane and Guardians were using Virtues. Now they are using Daredevil, Tempest and Dragonhunter respectively (although sometimes you can mix Dragonhunter and Virtues). If you remove elite specs then the “problem” is still there as there was always a traitline that was a better option for most builds, it’s usually the one that buffed the profession mechanics. And in most cases it’s the one that was swapped out for the elite spec.

Maybe if they turned those into elite specs it would help

So, someone who wanted a Beastmaster ranger would be unable to use Druid (not that I’d want to, but that may not hold if/when new Elite Specs for Rangers appear)? You’d kill a bunch of existing builds if you turned the profession line into an Elite Line. I’m sure there would be players in PvP/WvW who’d be happy to see some of the builds that currently use the profession and Elite lines take that hit.

I’ve soloed and duo’d this multiple times. I use the cannon that’s as far back from the water as possible. The fish catapults hit it from time to time and I have to pull out and heal until the poison cloud goes down, but the Risen mostly go after things on the beach level.

That said, the solution I use may be a workaround due to an oversight on Risen leashing during the event.

Crinn.7864:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Let’s face it. Elite specs are not going to be nerfed too much, because that reduces their appeal, which could (will) diminish sales..

I see this idea everywhere, and it’s wrong.

There is no data or evendience that links power with sales. Class balance and power is the concern of existing customers not potential customers.

Nobody says “Hey that expac has a cool trailer, I wonder what the balance is like.” Flashy trailers and content are what sell copies. If GW2’s F2P is engaging enough players will buy into the expac regardless of elites, simply to access the content. If they aren’t interested in the content then they probably won’t buy regardless of what elites are like.

What’s wrong is saying that factor A is the entirety of what drives sales while factor B has no bearing whatsoever. Businesses make money by offering products that appeal to as many people as possible. Sure, ANet might make “enough” money to keep the business going via the initial customer rush, most of which is generated by some combination of hype and/or customer loyalty.

However, there are going to be people who don’t opt in over the hype. Some of those people are going to adopt later due to various reasons, one of which is going to be staying relevant in game metas. All the evidence you need for that is to see the many posts complaining that to stay relevant the player needs to buy access to the Elite Specs. Diminished sales means just that, not diminished below what’s enough to stay open. Have you ever seen a business which would turn its back on more sales?

Now, maybe the thought never crossed the minds of anyone at Anet that there were going to be people who would buy solely to avoid being at a disadvantage in competitive play. I prefer to think that’s not the case. Ymmv.

Astralporing.1957:

Dawdler.8521:

Stuff like that makes WvW worth playing.

If you think killing a “level 40 upscale” is something worth bragging about…

He probably just likes drinking wine.

maddoctor.2738:

Buffing the under-performing trait lines on their respective “build” can open up builds. Like, if there is no condi build for a profession and there is a trait line that offers better condition damage (that nobody uses) buff that trait line so the condi damage build is competitive. Of course that can happen only if the next elite specs aren’t going to nerf core specs again.

One question is, “Are the under-used traits under-performing, or are they simply not perceived to be needed in most aspects of PvE?” My answer is, “The under-used traits are not out-of-balance, they are perceived as not needed.” Another question is, “If a trait or line boosts one’s survival, but you have to sacrifice (group) damage to get it, would meta players do that even if the survival/other trait/line is buffed to be obscenely OP?” My answer is, “Such traits would be incorporated into a meta only if their use was deemed mandatory to beat the content, as we see in raids with unavoidable damage necessitating a healer.”

To my mind, the prevalence of damage-based, particularly team damage-based traits in PvE meta builds is a very old issue. Elite Specs weren’t going to change that, but they do add greater capability across all builds. That’s what people are talking about when they say Elites are too good. It’s not just that they’re a better third option in a given build. It’s more like they are the better option across all (or at least most) builds.

maddoctor.2738:

It’s simple, finding use for the under-used core specializations is more important than nerfing Elite specs in order to make those under-used core specs look better.

Massive oversimplification.

Core lines are designed around the idea that sustain, soak and glass are different things, and you cannot have all three because glass requires (at least) 2 lines. What’s so about the Elite lines is the drawbacks to glass are less prevalent due to things like increased access to invulnerability, evasion, sustain, condi remove, etc. are more readily available with the Elite Spec. There’s also the increased options thing which you conveniently ignore.

Let’s face it. Elite specs are not going to be nerfed too much, because that reduces their appeal, which could (will) diminish sales. And you’re barking up the wrong tree and cherry picking who to respond to while ignoring other points of view that you (apparently) have no counter for.

All we know at this point is that there are people working on it. For what it’s worth, I’d guess that Healix’ guess might turn out to be correct.

1. My hand-based twitch reflexes deteriorated due to arthritis. I have limited ability to do anything about it. As a result, anyone who has good twitch is going to get an easy win. While I don’t mind that myself, I wouldn’t want to burden a team of people looking to have fun, so no sPvP.
2. WvW zerg play is unintersting to me. I’m fine running a backline Ele, but since HoT popped, the new builds have meant the zerg game changed. Since it was less fun, I stopped paying attention and am likely behind on what I’d have to do to contribute effectively. I could catch up, but it would be spending time studying for a game element that I don’t find fun, so unless that changes, I mostly avoid the zerg.
3. WvW roaming I still do sometimes, although it does get annoying when I run into someone with high sustain, high damage and high mobility all in one build. So, I still do roam a bit, but my enthusiasm for it is also waning.

maddoctor.2738:

If the same 2 (or 1 in some cases) core trait lines are chosen by every build of a particular profession then aren’t those trait lines more problematic than the elite specs? That’s what I’m trying to say here, saying that Tempest is a problem because it’s mandatory and OP is missing how mandatory and OP Fire and Air trait lines are.

The telling point is not that the Elite Spec is more powerful than the least valuable trait line in a core-only build, it’s that the Elite line offers access to more things than any of the core lines do, with the opportunity cost being only that least valuable line. They offer a new (often better) profession mechanic, access to better buffs (especially in teams) and new skills (weapon and utility). This flat out means a player (or team) running (an) Elite Spec[s] has more options than one which is not. So no, one of these things is not like the others, even though all three are considered mandatory.

maddoctor.2738:

In short: In PVE, Elite specs are NOT more powerful than core specs, they are more powerful than the third core spec used to complete your build.

If a build which includes two core lines is stronger with the Elite line than with any of the other 3 core trait lines, then the entire build is stronger. When people talk about Elite lines being stronger, they’re talking about the new lines’ impact on the total build, not whether the new line is stronger than every core line.

AliamRationem.5172:

IndigoSundown.5419:

- snip -

Works for me. I prefer HoT to core Tyria maps in most every way (layouts, challenge, meta events), but I liked Orr, SW, and Southsun well enough. But given that when HoT had champion spawns like this players complained, I doubt we’re going to come to consensus on this.

On further reflection, HoT HC trains are once-a-day for rewards, though you can kill the champs as as many times as you want. It was probably done that way because of the animosity over people killing champs out of sequence and because ANet preferred people do something besides the champ train. In order to preserve the HoT version, on demand champs would only reward 1/day. If the rewards were attractive enough, you’d probably see trains most times in the day.

Sometimes it just isn’t possible to give everyone what they want. I don’t think this needs to be one of those times.

OriOri.8724:

I wonder what the rationale was behind going through the extra work to make a whole new farm for leather instead of adjusting a few dozen (at most) numbers in recipes

At a guess, it’s ANet doing what they often do: trying to address multiple issues with one change. The issues, as I see them:

1. There’s never enough stuff to do. Adding repeatable content players will want to do is a good thing.
2. New leather supply will address some peoples’ concerns about the materials issue.
3. It’s being billed as “challenging.” If it is, then it’s something else to scratch that itch.

AliamRationem.5172:

You’re being disingenuous. One “type” of content cannot just be written off as inconsequential. In the case of HoT, you’re referring to at least 17 hero point challenges and the resulting gameplay that players like myself enjoy.

As I said, I enjoy running HP trains. I enjoy attempting to solo champion hero challenges. Regardless of your concept of balance, it removes an aspect of gameplay that many of us enjoy simply so that you can have it your way.

As my previous post indicates, this is unnecessary. The next expansion could provide sufficient solo content to allow you to play the way you want to play without removing the gameplay that I enjoy.

How does this work in core?

• Players who want to solo champions can solo champions. Most maps beyond the 1-25 range have about as many as there are champion HC’s in HoT maps.
• Players who want to solo exploration can solo exploration.
• Instead of HC trains, there were champ trains.
• There’s no conflict. Both “sides” get what they want.

How does this work in HoT?

• Players who want to solo champions can solo champions.
• Players who want to solo exploration cannot, unless they can also solo champions.
• Instead of champ trains, there are HC trains.
• One “side” or the other has to lose out.

How could it work in the next XPac?

• Put in enough champions on the map as regular events.
• Either: drop HC’s as a component for map completion; or drop champions from HC’s.
• Make some of the champ events part of rewarding zone content. This would allow for trains. Make the other champs drop 1-2 champ bags — less rewarding than the other champs, but if you’re in it for harder content, the rewards should not matter.
• No conflict between solo explorers not capable of soloing champs and people wanting trains or solo challenge.

What could go wrong?

• If there is too much time between champ respawns, trains might gravitate to the less rewarding champs to fill the time. Upping the tempo on timers might fix this. ANet could also make the champ events start on demand the way HC’s do. That way someone who wanted to could kill one solo while the train was elsewhere without impacting the train. If they took the latter approach, they wouldn’t even need to have champs with lesser rewards.
• Players who profess to want challenge might decide to ignore the less-rewarding champs. That’s certainly what happened in core once the SW launched. Champ bags looked less enticing. If that were to happen, ANet will have wasted development time. Still, that’s often the case with harder content. It has limited longevity.

AliamRationem.5172:

Is it a debate over what should or should not be solo content? Because it sure sounds like you’re asking for only solo content in the next expansion. Map complete? Solo. Collections? Solo. HCs? Solo. What is left that should not be solo content in your estimation?

No, I don’t ask that collections be solo play. Since map completion requires HC’s, then yeah, I think they should all be soloable by the average player. [That’s also a response to Vayne.]

What’s not solo play for average players? Raids, dungeons, fractals, most HoT champions, most if not all group events, all map metas, collections, most of WvW and most of sPvP. In HoT, solo play means mini-games, some DE’s, gathering and some of the exploration objectives. So, yeah, HoT looks heavily weighted toward group play. All I’m asking is that HC’s not be group events because I’d like a goal (map complete) that means I’m not married to taxiing and the meta timers. If that’s too much to ask… if everything significant has to be group play, then this is no longer the game for me.

MMO’s are time sinks. They exist to waste our time. Crafting is just one such. It’s not likely to change.

Vayne.8563:

IndigoSundown.5419:

AliamRationem.5172:

Why should every HP be solo-able? Because you say so? Well, I say that enough of them should be solo content to allow players who prefer it that way to get their elite spec unlocked.

Let’s not forget that HC’s are also exploration content. Imo, exploration should be 100% soloable. It was in core, with a couple of points in Orr (pre-nerf Noose Road and Balthazar) presenting a serious challenge, but still doable.

In HoT, I can solo Golem, but not vampire. I can solo Arrowhead and Mushroom, but only on pet/clone classes. I can’t even find some of the HC’s before I get frustrated and go do something fun.

Ultimately, this turns into a debate over what should be group content and what shouldn’t. ANet has pushed group content down our throats. It seems like everything meaningful requires groups. This includes completed exploration (in HoT), collections, a lot of rewards. MMO’s are indeed social games, but they flourish when they offer robust options for the soloist. GW2 HoT is lacking in the latter.

So how do you get the temple of balthazar HP without the temple being taken, in Straits of Devestation. I know I can’t solo that, certainly not on very profession. Nor can I take the temple solo.

What OriOri said. I burn down the Vet Acolyte while watching out for the Plague Carriers it summons. The rest is just mopping up.

I’ve got at least 6 characters (different professions) who’ve soloed that point. My other characters mostly got lucky and found the temple open. I’ve only ever done the chain once. I usually don’t have that much time in one sitting.

It seems like it’s a no-brainer for some people to blame Colin Johanson for the way GW2 is. I’m not buying it. Did he have an effect? Sure. Did he produce a lot of cool things? Yep. Did some of his direction not pan out? Absolutely. However, we should know where the buck stops.

Just a flesh wound.3589:

I have to wonder if ANet isn’t bored by the Dragon story line or finds it difficult to do an interesting story where humans fight an almost impersonal force of magic. There are a lot of other, much more interesting stories in the game. Palawa Joko and what happened to Elona. Cantha and its story line. Both of these would be more complex and interesting than fighting a dragon.

This. If ANet isn’t bored with the dragon thing, I am. There’s only so many primordial forces of nature I can stomach.

Vayne.8563:

Tatwi.3562:

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

I think the title of the thread and the OP made it clear way before the middle of the second page.

It’s just a post/thread about dissatisfaction, plain and simple. No amount of information will change that.

Indeed. The thread didn’t need all these posts by other people. It’s simply a complaint and a warning, because…

1. The reality is that owning HoT can cause one to lose access to a variety of dailies one previously had access to before they purchased HoT.
(Spinning the truth and applying personal preferences can’t change the fact that one can log in and not have access to a daily simply because HoT is enabled on their account)

2. This issue wasn’t documented anywhere else.
(It really kittened me off when I discovered it, after spending $40 on software that I couldn’t return for a refund; “Knowing is half the battle” – G.I. Joe)

3. ArenaNet customer support suggested that I make a post on their forum about the issue.
(I presume, because they couldn’t be bothered to do it themselves, but you’d have to ask “GM Maelstrom” about that)

Discussion wasn’t necessary.

When you word your post in a misleading manner, you’re going to get dissent opinions.

Had you said that on occasion some dailies from the core world are replaced by HoT dailies, there wouldn’t have been an issue. This is a problem of you’re own making.

No company could possibly document each and every single change that comes with an expansion and if they did, it would be thousands of pages long and only a tiny percent of the playerbase would read it all. Saying they should have told you something this minor, and I’d wager to the vast majority people it is minor, is unrealistic.

Maybe, next time before you post, you can factcheck your posts, because right now, what you’ve posted, the way you’ve posted it is inaccurate.

As much as I appreciate the OP’s concerns, Vayne is correct (this time).

AliamRationem.5172:

Why should every HP be solo-able? Because you say so? Well, I say that enough of them should be solo content to allow players who prefer it that way to get their elite spec unlocked.

Let’s not forget that HC’s are also exploration content. Imo, exploration should be 100% soloable. It was in core, with a couple of points in Orr (pre-nerf Noose Road and Balthazar) presenting a serious challenge, but still doable.

In HoT, I can solo Golem, but not vampire. I can solo Arrowhead and Mushroom, but only on pet/clone classes. I can’t even find some of the HC’s before I get frustrated and go do something fun.

Ultimately, this turns into a debate over what should be group content and what shouldn’t. ANet has pushed group content down our throats. It seems like everything meaningful requires groups. This includes completed exploration (in HoT), collections, a lot of rewards. MMO’s are indeed social games, but they flourish when they offer robust options for the soloist. GW2 HoT is lacking in the latter.

Lite Ning Strike.5203:

IndigoSundown.5419:

AliamRationem.5172:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Vayne.8563:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Vayne.8563:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Vayne.8563:

This would be true if the HoT maps are empty. They’re not. I’m on HoT maps almost every day virtually all day. They’re pretty busy most of the time.

The exception is Dragon Stand which is pretty busy when the meta is up.

It’s nice that you know how to taxi. Not everyone will. It’s nice that you looked at a 3rd party timer to know when the optimum times to taxi are. Not everyone will. It’s nice that you can play so much, which allows you to make yourself available at the right times to accommodate your activities to the timers. Not everyone can. It’s nice that you always get into the populated map. Not everyone does. It’s nice that you have a large guild to play with failing everything else. That won’t be true for everyone, either.

The truth is that you have a better experience than some for those reasons. The fact of the matter is that the core game’s maps are friendlier to players who don’t have tons of time, who just want to drop into the game when their lives allow and get some stuff done than the HoT maps. The fact that you have an enjoyable experience does not make it a slam dunk that everyone is going to.

Actually I almost never do metas on HoT maps and I almost never use LFG and they’re still not empty. I meant what I said. HoT maps simply aren’t as empty as many people are making them out to be. The population is simply more spread out.

Sure, when I do a meta, I do look in LFG tool., That’s true. But 90% of the time I’m on HoT maps, I’m just doing events or completion. For example,. I’ve completed VB on over 20 characters and AB on 15 characters. Now I’m doing the same with TD.

I don’t use LFG and there are still plenty of people on those maps.

Now admittedly I do use map chat to tell people I’m about to do a hero point,. but those events are being called out on map chat all the time.

People really do need to start using map chat to get people to come.

If you have a mentor tag, pop it, say the name of the tag and post the nearest landmark to it. If it’s complicated to get to, say something.

Hi I’m about to do the Tengu hero point. It’s north of Eastwatch Waypoint (link) up the jumping mushrooms.

It takes about two minutes to finish that (even though I have soloed it on a necro).

And that’s without using LFG.

I’ll agree that people don’t use map chat. I can wander around a HoT map for an hour or more and see nothing at all in chat. Then again, I can, in a space of a quarter hour be asked to leave a closing map three times. That’s either people taxiing, going to a map they find more fun, or logging off.

It’s like any map with a meta though. You go to the fire ele, if you do the fire ele and stay on the map after everyone’s left, they need to consolidate maps, because all the maps are closing. That’s normal for every zone in this game with a world boss.

Do Teq and stay in Sparkfly and you get the same effect.

Except I see HoT maps closing in the middle of metas, not at the end. I don’t see that in Metrica or Sparkfly. This probably has to do with the length of the disparate content.

Yeah, I see that too…when I’m on a map that isn’t currently working toward the meta. It happens because other players left a non-meta map for a meta map. Big surprise, right?

Not a surprise to me. Maybe to Vayne, who never apparently sees an empty map unless a meta just ended.

I agree with you totally, myself and my entire Guild often see map closings, low population on HoT maps and have to change maps in the Guild Hall. What the heck is this all about?

Say the game starts with a single map copy. New mega server shards are created when the first one gets partially full. This can happen multiple times, especially if people flock to the area for a meta event. So, you have a bunch of partially-filled shards. However, players want to succeed, so they taxi (use Join In) to one or more shards. This means you’ll see one or more shards close to the shard population cap. Those people had to be in a copy of that zone to “Join In.” That means they are leaving the other partially filled shards. Also, people who came for the meta but can’t get into a full map go elsewhere or log off. So, we see shards that seem empty, often to the point that the “close shard” routine starts up.

As much as this would be to my advantage, I don’t think this is a good idea. Any MMO — even WoW-- needs to offer something to as many demographics as possible. There is definitely a large demographic that likes to “work” to out-gear the opposition. They can’t do that in sPvP. In PvE. it’s mostly irrelevant. In WvW, they can get a small advantage over those who didn’t. The value of that for the game’s appeal to diverse groups is definitely an issue.

AliamRationem.5172:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Vayne.8563:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Vayne.8563:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Vayne.8563:

This would be true if the HoT maps are empty. They’re not. I’m on HoT maps almost every day virtually all day. They’re pretty busy most of the time.

The exception is Dragon Stand which is pretty busy when the meta is up.

It’s nice that you know how to taxi. Not everyone will. It’s nice that you looked at a 3rd party timer to know when the optimum times to taxi are. Not everyone will. It’s nice that you can play so much, which allows you to make yourself available at the right times to accommodate your activities to the timers. Not everyone can. It’s nice that you always get into the populated map. Not everyone does. It’s nice that you have a large guild to play with failing everything else. That won’t be true for everyone, either.

The truth is that you have a better experience than some for those reasons. The fact of the matter is that the core game’s maps are friendlier to players who don’t have tons of time, who just want to drop into the game when their lives allow and get some stuff done than the HoT maps. The fact that you have an enjoyable experience does not make it a slam dunk that everyone is going to.

Actually I almost never do metas on HoT maps and I almost never use LFG and they’re still not empty. I meant what I said. HoT maps simply aren’t as empty as many people are making them out to be. The population is simply more spread out.

Sure, when I do a meta, I do look in LFG tool., That’s true. But 90% of the time I’m on HoT maps, I’m just doing events or completion. For example,. I’ve completed VB on over 20 characters and AB on 15 characters. Now I’m doing the same with TD.

I don’t use LFG and there are still plenty of people on those maps.

Now admittedly I do use map chat to tell people I’m about to do a hero point,. but those events are being called out on map chat all the time.

People really do need to start using map chat to get people to come.

If you have a mentor tag, pop it, say the name of the tag and post the nearest landmark to it. If it’s complicated to get to, say something.

Hi I’m about to do the Tengu hero point. It’s north of Eastwatch Waypoint (link) up the jumping mushrooms.

It takes about two minutes to finish that (even though I have soloed it on a necro).

And that’s without using LFG.

I’ll agree that people don’t use map chat. I can wander around a HoT map for an hour or more and see nothing at all in chat. Then again, I can, in a space of a quarter hour be asked to leave a closing map three times. That’s either people taxiing, going to a map they find more fun, or logging off.

It’s like any map with a meta though. You go to the fire ele, if you do the fire ele and stay on the map after everyone’s left, they need to consolidate maps, because all the maps are closing. That’s normal for every zone in this game with a world boss.

Do Teq and stay in Sparkfly and you get the same effect.

Except I see HoT maps closing in the middle of metas, not at the end. I don’t see that in Metrica or Sparkfly. This probably has to do with the length of the disparate content.

Yeah, I see that too…when I’m on a map that isn’t currently working toward the meta. It happens because other players left a non-meta map for a meta map. Big surprise, right?

Not a surprise to me. Maybe to Vayne, who never apparently sees an empty map unless a meta just ended.

Vayne.8563:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Vayne.8563:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Vayne.8563:

This would be true if the HoT maps are empty. They’re not. I’m on HoT maps almost every day virtually all day. They’re pretty busy most of the time.

The exception is Dragon Stand which is pretty busy when the meta is up.

It’s nice that you know how to taxi. Not everyone will. It’s nice that you looked at a 3rd party timer to know when the optimum times to taxi are. Not everyone will. It’s nice that you can play so much, which allows you to make yourself available at the right times to accommodate your activities to the timers. Not everyone can. It’s nice that you always get into the populated map. Not everyone does. It’s nice that you have a large guild to play with failing everything else. That won’t be true for everyone, either.

The truth is that you have a better experience than some for those reasons. The fact of the matter is that the core game’s maps are friendlier to players who don’t have tons of time, who just want to drop into the game when their lives allow and get some stuff done than the HoT maps. The fact that you have an enjoyable experience does not make it a slam dunk that everyone is going to.

Actually I almost never do metas on HoT maps and I almost never use LFG and they’re still not empty. I meant what I said. HoT maps simply aren’t as empty as many people are making them out to be. The population is simply more spread out.

Sure, when I do a meta, I do look in LFG tool., That’s true. But 90% of the time I’m on HoT maps, I’m just doing events or completion. For example,. I’ve completed VB on over 20 characters and AB on 15 characters. Now I’m doing the same with TD.

I don’t use LFG and there are still plenty of people on those maps.

Now admittedly I do use map chat to tell people I’m about to do a hero point,. but those events are being called out on map chat all the time.

People really do need to start using map chat to get people to come.

If you have a mentor tag, pop it, say the name of the tag and post the nearest landmark to it. If it’s complicated to get to, say something.

Hi I’m about to do the Tengu hero point. It’s north of Eastwatch Waypoint (link) up the jumping mushrooms.

It takes about two minutes to finish that (even though I have soloed it on a necro).

And that’s without using LFG.

I’ll agree that people don’t use map chat. I can wander around a HoT map for an hour or more and see nothing at all in chat. Then again, I can, in a space of a quarter hour be asked to leave a closing map three times. That’s either people taxiing, going to a map they find more fun, or logging off.

It’s like any map with a meta though. You go to the fire ele, if you do the fire ele and stay on the map after everyone’s left, they need to consolidate maps, because all the maps are closing. That’s normal for every zone in this game with a world boss.

Do Teq and stay in Sparkfly and you get the same effect.

Except I see HoT maps closing in the middle of metas, not at the end. I don’t see that in Metrica or Sparkfly. This probably has to do with the length of the disparate content.

Daddicus.6128:

IndigoSundown.5419:

I’ll agree that people don’t use map chat. I can wander around a HoT map for an hour or more and see nothing at all in chat. Then again, I can, in a space of a quarter hour be asked to leave a closing map three times. That’s either people taxiing, going to a map they find more fun, or logging off.

I’ve asked for help in HoT zones dozens of times. I can only recall three times where someone answered, and one was a sarcastic joke.

This is my point. Different players are going to have a disparate experience depending on when they log in, what they want to accomplish, what their personal preferences are, etc. The real question is, imo, what responsibility the devs have in facilitating an enjoyable experience for players. What this means for HoT is, “How successful was Hot in terms of engaging various player demographics?” The answer at the moment seems to indicate that some loved it and some hated it.

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

Daddicus.6128:

But, as you and others have been saying, small problem. Not huge.

It’s not a “problem” — It’s a question of preferences (and of naming conventions).

Some people seem to prefer avoiding HoT even after buying it, although most people seem to prefer it this way. In addition, some people in this thread have digressed to discussing other concerns they have about dailies generally (nothing to do with HoT vs Core).

Arguably, the only “problem” is that the OP was surprised that buying HoT would affect the game beyond adding new zones and features.

Yeah, I agree, the OP was blindsided by the effect that HoT had on his (?) preferred content. I admit, though that if dailies are one’s preferred content, the game has all but ceased to be relevant to one’s life.

Vayne.8563:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Vayne.8563:

This would be true if the HoT maps are empty. They’re not. I’m on HoT maps almost every day virtually all day. They’re pretty busy most of the time.

The exception is Dragon Stand which is pretty busy when the meta is up.

It’s nice that you know how to taxi. Not everyone will. It’s nice that you looked at a 3rd party timer to know when the optimum times to taxi are. Not everyone will. It’s nice that you can play so much, which allows you to make yourself available at the right times to accommodate your activities to the timers. Not everyone can. It’s nice that you always get into the populated map. Not everyone does. It’s nice that you have a large guild to play with failing everything else. That won’t be true for everyone, either.

The truth is that you have a better experience than some for those reasons. The fact of the matter is that the core game’s maps are friendlier to players who don’t have tons of time, who just want to drop into the game when their lives allow and get some stuff done than the HoT maps. The fact that you have an enjoyable experience does not make it a slam dunk that everyone is going to.

Actually I almost never do metas on HoT maps and I almost never use LFG and they’re still not empty. I meant what I said. HoT maps simply aren’t as empty as many people are making them out to be. The population is simply more spread out.

Sure, when I do a meta, I do look in LFG tool., That’s true. But 90% of the time I’m on HoT maps, I’m just doing events or completion. For example,. I’ve completed VB on over 20 characters and AB on 15 characters. Now I’m doing the same with TD.

I don’t use LFG and there are still plenty of people on those maps.

Now admittedly I do use map chat to tell people I’m about to do a hero point,. but those events are being called out on map chat all the time.

People really do need to start using map chat to get people to come.

If you have a mentor tag, pop it, say the name of the tag and post the nearest landmark to it. If it’s complicated to get to, say something.

Hi I’m about to do the Tengu hero point. It’s north of Eastwatch Waypoint (link) up the jumping mushrooms.

It takes about two minutes to finish that (even though I have soloed it on a necro).

And that’s without using LFG.

I’ll agree that people don’t use map chat. I can wander around a HoT map for an hour or more and see nothing at all in chat. Then again, I can, in a space of a quarter hour be asked to leave a closing map three times. That’s either people taxiing, going to a map they find more fun, or logging off.

For a long time now, I’ve believed that the current wardrobe system, with one wardrobe slot, multiple charges and the need to both store/carry and manually switch up to 10 pieces of gear is clumsy, and discourages people from pursuing multiple looks for each character. I’d like to see ANet:

• Provide multiple wardrobe slots that can be switched to with one click.
• Charge gems for slots beyond the first.
• T Charges would still be needed to insert a look into a wardrobe slot, or to change looks within a wardrobe slot.

That would, I believe, encourage players to seek multiple looks for each character, broadening the appeal of skin-seeking. I also think it would give the OP what he’s asking for. It could even mean more money for ANet.

Wanze.8410:

IndigoSundown.5419:

ANet admitted when they introduced Ascended that they badly overestimated the time it would take players to get their exotic gear.

fify

Yeah, thanks. Hazards of posting late at night.

Vayne.8563:

This would be true if the HoT maps are empty. They’re not. I’m on HoT maps almost every day virtually all day. They’re pretty busy most of the time.

The exception is Dragon Stand which is pretty busy when the meta is up.

It’s nice that you know how to taxi. Not everyone will. It’s nice that you looked at a 3rd party timer to know when the optimum times to taxi are. Not everyone will. It’s nice that you can play so much, which allows you to make yourself available at the right times to accommodate your activities to the timers. Not everyone can. It’s nice that you always get into the populated map. Not everyone does. It’s nice that you have a large guild to play with failing everything else. That won’t be true for everyone, either.

The truth is that you have a better experience than some for those reasons. The fact of the matter is that the core game’s maps are friendlier to players who don’t have tons of time, who just want to drop into the game when their lives allow and get some stuff done than the HoT maps. The fact that you have an enjoyable experience does not make it a slam dunk that everyone is going to.

If by bags you mean champion bags or the like, you’re correct. If you mean things like Medium Moldy Bags or the many enemy specific resource bags, you’re not.

What you see as a problem I see as deliberate system design. I’m opposed to solutions that make it easier for players to bypass the intended requirement to spend more time pursuing endgame goals. If long-term goals need to exist — and it’s obvious to me that ANet thinks they do — then I’m in their corner if the reason for the request is rooted in player impatience, which is usually the case.

ANet admitted when they introduced Ascended that they badly overestimated the time it would take players to get their exotic gear. At the same time, they said they thought people would sell the mats for higher prices. Those observations were rooted in the low amount of mats needed, the plethora of mats available and the lack of any requirement for lower tier mats for exotic gear.

ANet “fixed” that with Ascended (and other endgame goals). Whether they went too far is a matter of perspective. If your motivation is to finish endgame goal X faster, the answer is, “Yes.” If your motivation is something else, well, mats like Linen are at a price where it’s actually worth farming (if one is inclined), and the same is true for other lower-tier mats, so, “No.”

So where are the problems (we know that any system designed by humans is likely to have some)? My answer is that they are in imbalances within tiers. For instance, T6 leather is at a much higher price than metal, and T6 cloth is in the toilet by comparison.

There’s also the scaling issue, if there is one. Down-scaling does not produce a level-equivalent experience, although it’s better than it once was. So, the question is, “Would farming lower-level zones for mats be more compelling with greater challenge, or is allowing max level players to farm faster by killing mobs faster the way to go?”

Seera.5916:

Daddicus.6128:

Seera.5916:

Astralporing isn’t wrong. The HoT ones don’t remove any of the Core Tyria ones. They just add to the pool of possible dailies.

And there are 2 sets of possible dailies: one for those with HoT and one for those without HoT.

According to the wiki, today, if you own HoT, you get Auric Basin events and the other three from Core Tyria. I have verified this.

However, if you don’t own HoT, you get Wayfarer Foothills instead. I can’t verify this. Can someone without HoT verify?

But owning HoT doesn’t remove any of the options from the pool.

I’m able to get non-HoT specific dailies when they get chosen from the list. There’ve been several days recently where that’s happened. Some of them got posted in this thread.

Let’s say there are 50 possible daily options from the core game. And there are 10 specific HoT ones. Players with HoT don’t have 50 possible options. They have 60. The 10 HoT specific ones did not replace 10 core ones, they got added.

All that’s happened is a reduced chance of having core Tyria dailies due to HoT options being added. Nothing was removed.

Yes. What that means in practice is that tasks like Shiverpeaks Miner, Orr Vista Viewer or the various event zones occur almost as frequently as they would for a core-only account. At the other end of the spectrum, the boss metas — which used to pop a few times a month — might be seen every few months at best. It’s easier to conclude that some tasks have been removed the shorter the sample one looks at, but that’s a sampling error. There’s also a “feel” issue where a task that once popped 2-3 times a month — like a meta-boss — and now pops semi-annually or something like that is likely to feel all but gone.

zealex.9410:

Thats not a map design issue this could easily be fixed if anet would ever bring back the old channel system from gw1 where you could see the maps and if they are full or not and accordingly join one also i joined the expac around when the second raid wing released and i didnt have much trouble getting all the hero points and completing the the maps either solo or with friends or just by being smart against certain situations.

They’ve been asked any times to do that. (crickets).

Leading edge to succeed? lul if you say someone need to be good at the game and on end gear to pull off the content they you are mistaken as far as the most hp go you can easily solo them as far as you teak your build to deal dmg and from there even exotics will do fine.

Not what I said. Leading edge, as in the early adopters, the people who stay in the current content.

The maps are group finding freindly because they were meta heavy nd that to some lvl was a bit too much its good to see that with the new maps they take a break from glorified meta chains but idd like them to go back to taht for the next expac tho since it gives memorable moments as well as the feel of epicness while it shows the multiplayer asspect the best. Also meta maps thend to be te more lively and active which is a good thing.

I’ve got nothing against there being metas — however as someone else has often suggested, the metas should be instanced. This would improve accessibility and remove the headaches meta mob stacks cause for those who want to explore.

One more thing the “difficult content on open world maps” wasnt an exririment it was an long time standing request by the players who were able to one sot everything oen world in the game wihout a problem.The only isssue i find is that they shold have worked on the difficulty scaling on each lvl scale map better so the transition would be more natural, but should we feel like its was a msitake no hell no its goo to see things get harder the payoff feels better that way(well.. with a limit ofc its open world after all).

Hyperbole detected. No one “one-shots” everything.

I have nothing against the HoT mobs per se. The thing, though, is that even if event scaling were to start with smaller numbers required and scale up from there, players would still stack maps and leave several emptier shards under-populated. That’s a mega server issue. Scaling is only a benefit if it starts at solo or if enough players want to do stuff with a minimum of players.

zealex.9410:

tbh most of these problems where what ppl faced the first month or two after the expac launched

Which means that any of the many GW2 players who did not adopt HoT at launch and try it later face not only those issues, but empty maps. The LFG/taxi work-around is not an intuitive means to maybe find the one working map. What kind of an impression does that make?

Imo the experiment to put harder content in open-world maps is a dismal failure. Expecting the average player to not only want to deal with the HoT mobs, but also to need to use a map-loading meta-system that means several maps fail while one map outnumbers the mobs to an easy win was always going to succumb to diminishing returns as the game population moved on to the next new thing. Design that requires one either be on the leading edge to succeed or be aware of/willing to use grouping systems that are not intuitive and often result in frustration and failure is design built for failure as content ages.