Guild Wars 2

Teutos.8620:

Currently you have still access to the full server list, you don’t have to use the “Practice”-Button.

Personally I use f.e. a filter to show me only 1vs1 server in the list, and then I just pick an empty one.

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The current HoT-Preview only considers some of the most basic and most important features. It will include features we have no clue about, maybe even a duelling system.

Ah, thanks for the info. Sorry for not knowing that.

The new custom matches seem to be harder to set up than previously. Without spending a lot of effort, you just queue directly into any custom match it decides for you.

There isn’t even really a reliable way to simulate a dueling system, now. Any chance this will ever become a part of even the Heart of the Mists?

Bump?

Seriously, can we just get the opportunity to try this? Can’t possibly be much work on A. Net’s part. Might reveal their downed state does what I think it does and actually makes PvP less fun.

No downed state will actually help assassins a lot. It’s very hard to cast execute in a teamfight when you’re squishy, but dropping some mobile burst is doable.

…Been playing off and on since launch and every time I pick up the SPvP I have the same thought, “Man, this would be quite fun without that gimicky downed state that no other arena system uses…”

It makes PvP very rigid and predictable. It makes it 10x harder to win when outnumbered, unless you’re fighting absolute kittens. Seriously, 4v5’s are often 500 to <100 in this game. They’re more one-sided than they are in MOBAs, because you cannot clutch kill an opponent in this game.

It also restricts builds and just…isn’t satisfying gameplay.

Seriously, A. Net, can we just /try/ an optional setting in hot join where downed state is disabled? I assure you, people will have fun with it. Just make it a possible option on your hot join servers and watch how, after a week, the server list lights up with downed-state-free matches.

If this game type failed to pick up, I’d eat my own shoe. It’s very clear to see it would be fun.

entropy.9613:

A ‘thank you’ that conveniently doubles as advertising.

Presumably, the people you want to thank already have access to this link by virtue of the reason you want to thank them.

Need a new subforum for these ‘eSports’ narcissists.

Ohnoes a known streamer advertising and thanking the community in the incredibly inactive Spvp scene. I also like how you point out what he’s doing as if it’s some sort of secret, fiendish plot on his part. Of course streamers advertise. Sir, you’ve earned one doosh token.

Good for you, Jebro, keep it up.

Edit: My foul language was kittened.

How does downed state foster build diversity? Everyone just builds for survivability to land executes/revives. People keep saying that, but it makes no sense.

It would even work if glass cannons had some advantage for bringing down a player in downed state, but they don’t. If you build for heavy damage, the moment your opponent is in downed state, it’s like your traits no longer exist because the kill is that same 1.5s cast time for everyone. Giving everyone different builds but the same requisite for a kill (stationary in a clusterkitten AoE minefield for 1.5s) does not at all encourage build diversity. All people complain about on these forums are cooker cutter builds, and I think downed state is a huge part of that.

Kryshade.6075:

You obviously haven’t tried power necro with Dagger/Focus and Axe/Warhorn. I can beat “most” MM’s and Condi necros with power necro without bringing anything other than Flesh Golem minion wise and nothing put into minion traits .

As much as I’d like to believe this, I just don’t see it. I use those weapons and I am a deep, deep power build…none of your utility skills, aside from full minions, make up for the low damage output of dagger/axe by themselves.

If you do really well with that build though, upload some videos cause you’ll change a lot of minds.

I play a MM and the bunker nade engineers wreck me. I’m cool with it, because tankiness + AoE damage is the logical counter to minion swarms. It’s just more or less impossible to fight.

Dunno if this has been said, but you know what -really- destroys MM necros?

Nade engineers. Oh man, they just clear your pets in about 12 seconds or so, and you’re screwed~

Edit: I also want to say the reason I play MM is because dagger and axe builds without pets are just terrible, but they’re by far my preferred weapons. I have yet to ever see a necro doing well with those weapons who wasn’t deep into minionmancy.

I don’t think a downed-state free game mode would make glass cannon builds OP. I constantly find myelf, as a toughness hoarder, knocking down these builds long before they knock me down.

However, it would make them viable. As it stands, many glass cannon builds are absolutely worthless in SPvP. Is that a better state for them? To just be totally non-viable?

I just sort of find the mass of tanky jack-of-all-trades builds to be a bit dull when it’s all you ever see.

Ameno, I think that circumstance, which exists as a potential in nearly every PvP type MMO already, would be a small price to pay for the plethora of benefits. Furthermore, many builds can cleanse those conditions, but I’ll consider that one pro of the downed state.

I’d also add that currently that same situation can happen just a little differently. You kill a necro by executing him, then the wall of conditions downs you. It’s gonna take you a few seconds to get up, giving plenty of time for you to get royally screwed by whatever may happen. It’s just the nature of fighting high, sustained DoT classes/builds.

Ameno.6813:

I think the game is more exciting with downed state. It premotes build diversity if anything, now instead of picking up nothing but damage oriented utilities you’ll be more inclined to pick up one or two stability or immunity granting utilities to help out with those stomps. It also forces you to play smart and save your blinds/immunities/stabilities for a stomp. As a bunker Engineer, the Elixir R toolbelt has granted me countless clutch (and very hard to time if I might add) self-revives. Not to mention those epic moments where you revive a teammate in the heat of the battle.

Without down state everybody would have the mentality of “kitten everything, I’m going to build as glassy as possible to down whoever I’m fighting”. Where’s the build diversity in that?

Currently I down glass cannons quite easily as a tank. I don’t think this would be the case at all. You don’t see glass cannons constantly putting everyone in downed state now.

Also those neat things you “add to a build to make it diverse” are things that everyone has to have or they do very poorly. Opposite of diversity.

Final Thoughts and Proposal:
Honestly, I feel like more could be said than this about the downsides of the downed state (Ooh, I’m clever), as this feature sincerely ruins the SPvP for me and several of the people I play with. Part of me wants to commend the devs for this interesting idea, and I think it’s great for PvE, but PvP balance is a very finite thing and there’s a reason no other PvP system has something like this. It’s difficult to balance, and frankly just a pretty unfun mechanic.

Now, I’m certain that most of the people who see this are people who still play the SPvP, and therefore are people who must tolerate/like the downed state. There are a voiceless thousands of people who have disliked the downed state enough that it’s more or less the reason they’re not here, reading about GW2 or playing Spvp. For instance, I recently got a small group of friends (3-6) to join me in Spvp, and overwhelmingly they all agreed it was a terrible mechanic, without any motivation from me to feel that way.

TLDR -
So, here’s my suggestion to everyone who loves the downed state and hates posts like this: Give us temporary, optional access to a form of SPvP without downed state. Don’t even balance anything for this new game mode, just briefly introduce the option as a test. Let the downed state speak for itself if it’s so great, and this new gametype will fail. If a great many people don’t have considerably more fun with this new downed-state-free game mode, I will boil my socks and eat them. Take that to the bank.

Since this is a controversial topic, please don’t respond without reading this ENTIRE post, because there’s a good chance that your response will be addressed within the following. If it’s not, comment away – I’m all ears.

This topic has been discussed a number of times, and in my experience the community has actually been pretty split on the subject. It may not seem that way because most of the people who really hate the downed state have long ago walked away from these forums (and likely SPvP entirely) but I’m bringing it up again. Hoping for sincere, reasonably mature discussion on this topic.

The best way to look at the downed state objectively is to consider the pros and cons. I’ll start with the cons, and you guys can cover the pros, as none come to mind for me.

1) It makes 1 versus X fights impossible for the already disadvantaged party
If you are fighting two players on your own, chances of you winning are very slim, even if you outplay them considerably. You will not find time to execute a player when another player is focusing you, unless you’re fighting a pair of blind quadriplegics. Furthermore, the player you down will have numerous escapes or crowd controls you need to avoid in order to actually complete that execute. It’s just not going to happen. This removes variability in combat. If you’re outnumbered, more often than not your only option is to run.

2) It encourages (demands?) zerging
Might sound like the same point, but I want to further advance this by saying it actually affects the entire flow of the battle. Because of the revive system, the control your allies offer to protect you while you’re down, and the fact that some classes are exceedingly difficult to execute for one person…the best strategy is almost invariably to move as one big unit. This gets very stale, very fast and is a huge factor in that, “Wow, what a mess of entities and particle effects.” feeling that so many players express when they’re new to PvP (aside from the swarms of AI, but that’s another topic for another day).

3) It greatly limits build diversity
Long ago, before warriors were the monsters they are now, I played a glass cannon greatsword warrior. Using a well-placed knockdown, as much of hundred blades as could be channeled, and then a whirlwind, I could often drop a given target who wasn’t particularly using his dodges/cc/kiting options well. It was impossible for me to then execute them in a teamfight. If you are made of paper, standing still for that 1.5s cast is much harder than it is for a tank.
Currently, as I’m playing a much tankier build (like nearly every non-thief/mesmer in SPvP), I just sit in a teamfight all day and roll in points and glory. As a tank, getting those executes off is much easier. Sure, they teleport away, have friends to control me, or CC me themselves…but I can survive through these effects. For many classes, the downed state makes toughness/vitality in large quantities mandatory.

4) It slows the game down
Zybak mentioned this in a video on the subject from 2012 and the issue is still true, though he didn’t really give the needed details. The gameplay is very clunky with the downed state, and makes certain cooldowns mandatory for getting a kill in a teamfight situation. Often in a direct teamfight, you must activate a stability cooldown to make a kill happen. This makes kills overly dependent on these CDs because the downed state just requires you to commit too much to make a kill happen

5) It can last absurdly long, despite being a lot less fun than the actual gameplay
This is opinion based, as some of you might be just like, “Oh yeah, throwing rocks! Woo! Yeah rocks!” but I’m not the first to feel this way. Often times, because of how hard you can be to execute, you get stuck in the downed state for a long, long time. You just sit there, violently throwing rocks. You wish you could just die and get back into the game – playing your class and build as you designed and enjoy it. Alas, you get to sit on the ground throwing rocks.
It’s also not fun to fight against. For me, it robs me of the dramatic moment of the play that actually landed the kill. Maybe a clutch last-minute attack wins you a fight, but now you’re probably going to be downed as well, if you’re low, and you can just sit there and throw rocks at each other. Didn’t FFXIV get completely remade because their game had too much rock throwing?

6) It looks kind of stupid
I won’t go into a lot of detail here, but when you have a rifle, a giant sword, flaming waves of magical death, or a horde of undead abominations…looks pretty dumb when you have to run over and slowly perform a single punch to kill your opponent.

Pros – The ball is in your court, downed state lovers.

I play a warrior and I love this idea.

Lifesteal is such a fun mechanic, and it’s very active healing over time. The numbers would have to be tweaked, but I approve of this suggestion. (Of course it will never happen.)

Mammoth.1975:

This thread seems productive, can I join in?

QQQQQQQQQQQ

Reading this at work, I lol’ed audibly and got some strange looks…

Anyways. Back to your dispute, gentlemen! popcorn

Coloxeus.3480:

pls do review this video … tell me if S/D is bursty!? and look at this warrior’s easy win and his gameplay isn’t that hard unlike the way im doing… i tried my best in this fight maximizing thief’s capability.

There is something about the balance here that’s lost in 1v1. Consider this:

You and the warrior both live quite a while in that fight. His survivability is regen and raw tankiness while standing in the open. Yours is high evasion, stealth, moderate recovery, and lots of immunity frames.

In a team situation, that warrior isn’t gonna go anywhere. He’s gonna sit there, and the damage of 2-3 players will make his regen irrelevant, and he’ll die. You, however, might survive by pure benefit of mobility and evasiveness. You’re not tanking one source of damage, but escaping all sources of damage.

I’m not saying sigil of healing isn’t too high right now, or that thieves and warriors are equally balanced. However, I don’t think whether or not you can 1v1 a regen tank warrior is indicative of changes these professions may or may not need.

Much love to the eles, I know most of your builds are difficult to manage right now. I find myself catching eles out and dropping them quite fast these days.

But as someone who has been playing a glass warrior from the start: HOW’S IT TASTE MOTHA-

Okay, but seriously, eles are ready for some love. I think the upcoming meta shift will do them some good. Necros, spirit rangers, and condi engis will be much more scarce in a couple weeks.

All I can say is that if they make 100b a burst skill, they had better make it channel a lot faster because the only players I ever land the final slam on are either already on the ground or clueless keyboard turners.

Greatsword is useful now because it works well with the sit-on-max-adrenaline builds. It would not be useful if its only burst was so selectively available and depleted adrenaline. And you can call Dash and Whirlwind burst skills, but they’re very unreliable vs competent players. Mind you, so is 100b, but at least with those 3 at your disposal something will stick.

PS – I play a warrior (sometimes a necro) and don’t enjoy using healing signet currently. I agree it’s too strong for a passive. 15-20% nerf would be appropriate.

Blind needs to go back to being consumed by any attack. Forcing your opponent to have to notice the debuff and auto attack to dispel it was sufficient for a skill so spammable.

Current blind is imbalanced vs melee, who frankly had it hard enough.

Holland.9351:

Shame on you ANet. Shame on your for only looking at sPvP. You don’t even deserve this post I’m making to you as a warning for how bad you’re handling your game.

Also this guy: Get out.

We don’t want’cher kind ’round hurr.

It seems to be all but unanimous that warriors are bottom tier. As someone who mains a warrior to more or less absolute exclusion, it would be difficult for me to create a sincere tier list. I’ve dabbled with other classes, but at the end of the day I just have too much fun landing those rare 100b combos. I also exclusively play TPvP, and am barely 60th percentile. (I.e. nothing special :P)

So with that in mind, I’m creating a tier list that describes my hardest fights 1v1 as a Zerker Amulet glass cannon greatsword warrior.

God Tier
=Pet/Condition Necromancers
-Trap Rangers

A Tier
+ Bunker Guardians
=Bunker Engies
=High Sustain Dagger Ele Builds

B Tier
+ Mesmers who use stealth
+ Stealth-centric Thieves
= Roaming Engineers
= Most rangers since patch
- Lifesteal/Power Necros
- Mesmers who don’t use stealth
- Roaming Guardians

C Tier
+ Thieves without stealth-spam
=Bow Warriors

Free Skirmisher Points Tier
-Offensive Melee Warriors

Ultimately, I think this tier list boils down to Defense + Ranged is staggeringly superior to Offense + Melee. If you have no escapes, getting into melee range, thus making yourself a convenient target for multiple ranged opponents, is a death sentence.

I think melee warriors would benefit most from an ability granting them some sort of deterrence from focus fire. If you imagine each player on the map as having a radius about them showing their effective attack range, melee warriors are likely to be within range for larger number of attackers than most classes/builds. This is further complicated by the warrior’s low number of escapes/sustain skills – When you attack a warrior you do so with confidence, knowing your damage will stick. (I.e. not be recovered in short order.)

However, these cons do not come without pros. Melee warriors have high damage potential. Unfortunately, deploying this damage requires your foes to be relatively unskilled. In higher levels of TPvP, players stop eating hundred blades like it’s a delicious snack. I think the ideal fix will be to make hundred blades and similar warrior skills a bit more difficult to avoid.

Essentially, warriors of the melee variety have damage to compensate for their vulnerability to focus fire and lack of sustain/escapes. That damage is only relevant if it can be applied. Presently, if a warrior and his opponent are of reasonable, comparable skill, the warrior is unlikely to land a sufficient amount of his attacks for his damage compensation to be worthwhile. Thus the warrior is both easily killed and dealing mediocre damage.

Anyways, just my take on the whole situation. Still having fun with structured pvp. (:

Just let the Necros have their time.

I main a warrior, and even though this patch didn’t do a lot for me, I am enjoying my most feared enemies at least looking the part now. Necros are way more reasonable badasses than Mesmers.

I’ll take swarms of zombies and creeping black death to purple butterfly clone brigades any day.

College sounds like you misunderstood a lot of my post, which is more on me than you because I tackled some difficult explanations there. Lemme try again to clear some of those points up:

1) Those “extra stats” (i.e. damage done, time on points, healing done) do not have to each be equally attainable for every class and build. They never are in any game to include them (and almost every PvP MMO and MOBA does). That’s why I mention that they “should have no influence on glory gain.” Every build for every class would be capable of doing something on that scoreboard (damage, point time, healing, damage absorbed, kills, deaths, etc) but they are not all expected to be equal on every stat.
I also agree that players should need to take an extra step to view these, as directly integrating them into the base scoreboard would be very difficult and cluttered.

2) The changes I am proposing to revive are the opposite of “selfish” – though that is a very apt description for the current revive system.
Right now: If you are reviving someone for most of their HP and then someone runs up and finishes the last few tics, they will get the points and you won’t, even if you were still healing when the player revived.
My suggestion: Both players get points as long as they are still reviving when the player rallies.

The reason I cannot get behind the breakdown of HP recovered to points system is because it does not account for the fact that actually rallying the player is the only step that is really important.

On the subject of getting glory for healing, I assume you’re referring to my skirmisher/Objective assaulter/Objective defender suggestion. Keep in mind that at the moment it is based strictly on damage, which is certainly not universally fair. I am suggesting it be based on damage, healing, and damage taken. This is more inclusive and more fair.

Thanks for the feedback, just wanted to make sure my suggestions weren’t misinterpreted.

IV. Okay. So how would we fix the scoreboard?
Objective Capturing -
Refine this so players who were in combat near the objective within 15-30 seconds of its capture/neutralization still receive credit. We know because of rewards like “objective assaulter” and “objective defender” that code exists to recognize when a player is not just on but -near- a cap point. I feel like this would be an easy fix.
Reviving Allies -
Simple fix. Either give all players who are healing the ally at the instant they revive credit, or only to the one who has done the most healing. Obviously, credit should only be given to those who are still healing when the ally rallies, as is currently the situation.
Skirmisher/Objective Defender/Objective Assaulter -
This one would be a bit trickier, but recovering the damage a target deals or enduring the damage that target deals should also contribute to skirmisher. For example, if a Thief does a great deal of damage to a tanky opponent, perhaps a Guardian, who is simultaneously being healed by a water Elementalist, just before a Ranger kills the Thief…all players should be eligible for skirmisher when the Thief dies. The guardian for soaking the damage, the Elementalist for recovering the damage, and the ranger, obviously, for damaging the thief. In the current system, it is quite possible that only the Ranger will receive this credit in such a scenario despite the arguably equivalent contribution from all players.
I understand the code here is likely the most demanding, but I feel this would be an important change. (One which, by the way, I make as someone who only plays massive damage characters and currently gets showered in Skirmisher points game after game. ;P)

More Informative Scoreboard - (If you take nothing else from this post…)
Finally, while these would not directly affect the glory gain for a match, they would provide lots of input on player performance, which is an excellent element to have in a PvP community that engages in competitive, gear-free matches. Here are some of my suggestions for additional stats to display, which could perhaps be visible on the current scoreboard, or seen when you mouse over a player:
Deaths – Number of times a player died in this match.
Healing done – Total amount of healing to self and allies that actually recovered damage.
Damage done – Damage dealt. This wouldn’t be a far stretch from the individual damage reports a player sees when slain from the sources that contributed to their death.
Damage taken – A stat for all those tanks to show off how immovable they are.
Player kills – Number of times player received the +5 points for killing an enemy player.
Total time on points – Gives an idea of how hard this player defended/assaulted throughout the game.
Map specific ideas – Treb destructions, Svanir/Chieftan kills, etc~

These are just a few suggestions, and I’m in favor of any more you guys might come up with. It is my opinion that when it comes to PvP stats, the scoreboard cannot be too informative. Thanks for reading this post, and I hope a few of you out there feel as strongly about improving the scoreboard system as I do.

What I intend to propose in this lengthy post are some simple, but ultimately meaningful changes to the scoreboard displayed in structured PvP battles. For a number of reasons, I feel this scoreboard is dramatically incomplete and does very little to indicate how much a player has actually contributed to the outcome of a game. I will not insist this is the opinion of the majority, but I have noted across these forums that many tournament players are in agreement.

I. Who are you to say?
I’m a PvP junkie of just about the most dedicated caliber. While it is true I joined the PvP scene later than many veterans (Vanilla WoW) I have exhausted the great majority of content in nearly every system I have participated in (Warlrod & Gladiator in WoW, RR80 in WAR, Rank 75 in SWTOR, Gold in LoL, etc). The point being, I have experience with what constitutes a good scoreboard system and what doesn’t.

II. What’s wrong with the current scoreboard?
In general (and I will get to specifics) it doesn’t accurately portray what a player has contributed to a victory. In fact, it doesn’t even give the interesting details of individual performance but instead summarizes a player’s efforts into one number based on point values that are misleading. Here are some examples of how a player’s score could falsely describe their efforts:
Capping points -
When a player stands on a point as it is captured or neutralized, they receive 10 points, though more players on a point does not cause it to cap faster. Despite this fact, players will often sit on an uncontested point in large numbers, motivated to do so as this will improve their score and glory gain. However, since they could be more useful elsewhere, these points are not indicative of them actually benefitting the team. At higher rankings in tournament play, I notice most players will try to leave one player to cap the point they all just fought together to take, but they should not be punished with point/glory losses for playing smart.
Reviving Allies –
Players are awarded 10 points for reviving an ally. However, if you revive 90% or so of a fallen player’s HP, and another ally runs up to revive that last 10% simultaneously, the player who most recently interacted with the fallen ally will receive the credit, despite the fact that they were most likely neither the most helpful player nor the most deserving of the credit.
Skirmisher/Objective Defender/Objective Assaulter -
Skirmisher (or OD/OA) refers to the 10 points gained when defeating an enemy player for players who dealt a high amount of damage to the fallen enemy. However, many builds contribute dramatically to kills, such as tanks and healers, but are unable to get these points as frequently as damage-dealers, resulting in a lower score. My queue partner plays a healing engineer, remarkably well given the uniqueness of his build, and often our victories would not be possible without his efforts but he rarely receives high point values because it is so difficult for him to get Skirmisher with such a defensive/support  build.

III. So, it’s just  a scoreboard. Why do these changes actually matter?
In GW2, scoreboard is not just about bragging rights. It directly affects glory gain. If you have two players of equal skill, one of whom chooses to play support/defensive character like my friend from the Skirmisher example, and the other a competent damage dealer such as a Mesmer or offensive Guardian, you can expect the latter to rank up much faster as he can accrue points more quickly.
However, don’t mistake me. The bragging rights are actually important to, and I would say those who disagree are missing a good portion of the fun behind a skill-based MMO PvP system that throws the element of gear out the window as beautifully as GW2 SPvP does. I would love for the scoreboard to provide more details for each player, even those which don’t directly contribute to glory gains.

Dororo.7561:

Instead of spending that many time trying to build a new warrior for Anet You could have l2p. Warrior Are not op but not bad too. L2p before posting this kind of stuff, it get boring see people complaining all the time.

^ Mesmer/Ranger/Thief (Or at any rate, kitten sure not a warrior…)

Warrior is all but universally agreed to be the lowest tier class in SPvP. Lots of fun, but very easy to control/wear down.

Oni Link.4621:

Greatsword

• Burst skill: Add a small Endurance recover to it to make it more attractive.
• Skill 1: Fine.
• Skill 2: Reduce casting time from 3 1/2 s to 2 s. No damage change.
• Skill 3: Fine.
• Skill 4: Fine.
• Skill 5: Need to fix the hit after the rush on moving target. Need fix on very big targets.

I’m only rank 22 or so, but I’ve spent all that time playing on a greatsword warrior. Not just any greatsword warrior, but one of those glass cannon ones that runs around with a zerker amulet and runes of the ogre.

2s cast time on 100b would be like having quickness available every time you use the current one, and as much fun as I would have with this it would be too strong. That being said, 3.5s is far too long. Perhaps 2.5s – 2.75s would be more reasonable. 2s is just a tad too quick IMHO.

The suggested changes for the 5 skill I agree with wholeheartedly. That skill will often rush right up to an immobolized target, lock me down for half a second of pointless charging, and still fail to connect for no discernable reason.

Hey! Nice video.

I’ve made a lot of PvP videos myself (none for Gw2 yet, because I feel that battlegrounds are far from ideal for such things) and I can appreciate the work and editing here.

I also play a glass cannon 2her warrior, and definitely can respect that they’re more difficult to play than most will give credit for. You’re just about the easiest focus target on the map.

Furthermore, I think it’s obvious the OP was not out to demonstrate his “1337 skills” but just made the video for its cinematic, aesthetic, and face value qualities. Besides, it’s note like he was playing a thief/mesmer. ;P

Actually, this isn’t a terrible idea as long as it’s not forced. I.e. the game should make an effort to separate classes. Hell, I’d like to think it already does.

It’s no surprise that the team with 3 warriors loses to the team composed of Thieves/Mesmers. That’s SPvP.

faeral.7120:

apparently learning isn’t fun—our education system has failed us.

and another person completely missing the point. It’s not a matter of whether or not you can learn to beat thieves and mesmers. I can and have before, as have countless others.

It’s just about 10x harder to fight than every other class. This is the point. It’s called balance. Nobody is saying thieves and mesmers auto win all the time forever. It’s about how they compare to OTHER classes in general. I don’t get how this concept is so confusing.

Besides, if you have so much fun overcoming challenges with your 1337 skeels, then I’m sure you’ll have a fantastic time making the thief/mesmer work after they get toned down to the same level as every other class. :P

Burnfall.9573:

Well said Embolism. obviously majority of players understand and agree with that. Unfortunately some just don’t get it. As a mesmers, what’s so hard to counter me?

I love how most responses are, “Yeah, Mesmers are pretty absurd and not fun at all to fight.”

And yet you claim the majority opinion is the exact opposite. Blatant denial of obvious trends. Interesting tactic.

I am really tired of these, “Here’s a strategy to beat Mesmers/Thieves – therefore they are not OP!”

Does it occur to these posters that those are the only two classes that are so difficult to counter? And that they’re -all- difficult to counter, not just you Mr. Elite Ninja? You’re not a special snowflake, thieves and mesmers kick the crap out of SPvP all day.

How do you counter the other classes in the game? You have a lot of options! Like you should. They’re straight forward, fun fights. Doesn’t mean you can ignore counter play. You still have to dodge, control, buff, and debuff appropriately, and misplays will still get you killed.

The point is to fight those TWO classes only, players have to play at a higher level than is required to fight the other classes, even if the thief/mesmer are of equal skill to them.

Plus, who hasn’t walked into a massive crowd of enemies only to realize 2/3rds of them are Mesmer clones (or more) and just thought, “Wow…this is kind of stupid.”

I am happy to see the overwhelming majority seems to agree with me, and I would frankly not be surprised if the nay-sayers were Mesmer and Thief players, especially since there seem to be an awful lot of those! In fact, the hot join I just played was me, an engineer, and 8 other players who were either Thieves or Mesmers.

They also may have had a necro briefly, but it was hard to tell with the entourage of purple butterfly people.

Imagine if I had made this post about warriors or engineers. Saying, “Wow, warriors are so broken! Super hard to fight and just insane!” I’d probably be laughed at. And while some may disagree that thieves/mesmers are the unparallelled best, note the difference in the community’s response to such claims.

Think this is a closed case, by now: These classes need to be toned down or altered in a way that makes fighting them a little more reasonable.

I want to start by saying I’ve really only been playing GW2 for the SPvP, and it’s by-and-large quite enjoyable. However, these forums clearly echo with cries of, “Nerf thief/mesmer!”

I’ve played most of my 19 ranks as a warrior, and I feel I have a good understanding of why these two classes are disliked so much. Is it because they’re overpowered? Maybe, but let’s consider what “overpowered” means.

To me, overpowered simply means stronger than other classes at the max level of play. I mostly do hot join and once in a blue moon a quick tournament. Like most players, I don’t really have a great idea of what exactly “optimal skill level” would entail with every class. I cannot say that thieves or mesmers would not be balanced vs the perfect elementalist/warrior/engineer for fact.

What I -can- say is that their classes sport mechanics that make them not only very unfun to fight against, they are above and beyond more confusing than every other class to face. Are they unbeatable? Probably not.

However, as anyone who has played in a game with a few extra mesmers has observed (whether or not they’re willing to admit it) that class immediately creates what I can only describe as a flashing purple butterfly clusterkitten that devolves into one unsightly mob of clones (and the worst thing tab targetting has experienced since Necromancers in Age of Conan). It’s very unappealing to new players. In fact, every time I’ve tried to get my friends to come play Spvp, they’ve been so immediately turned off by the “clone spammed battlegrounds” that they’ve quit.

Thieves cause a similar issue. They vanish completely for long periods of time, execute from stealth, and are often untouchable in a 1 on 1 encounter. I’m not saying this cannot be countered, but I’m saying you have to know a lot more about PvP to fight a thief than you do a warrior of equal skill.

I don’t want to say Mesmers and Thieves need to be “nerfed” but altered in such a way that they don’t discourage fun. Fighting a warrior is fun. You can see everything he does, and learn quickly from your mistakes. When he beats you, you know he outplayed you. I feel the same way about elementalists, engineers, necros, and guardians. Those classes -still- take time to learn, and are not too easily played at absolute optimal efficiency. They have an approximately balanced, comparable learning curve.

Thieves and Mesmers do not. They stand alone as the most dreaded classes to fight. Regardless of how many players insist, “Just learn to fight them!” and “Get better!” the massive discrepancy between them and other classes really shouldn’t just be ignored on this basis.

Either way, I have fun as long as I don’t take fighting those classes too seriously.

No, I meant GW2 already has all of those things you listed going for it.

It’s the lack of group queue in SPvP holding it back.

The class customization is awesome, the UI is already non-isometric (compared to LoL, Diablo, etc). It’s just the lack of group queues in Spvp.

Sorry I wasn’t clear on that.

One major flaw: Can’t conveniently queue for SPvP with your friends.

League of Legends is the most popular online PvP-esque game in the world, and is simply put the most played game in the world.

However, a lot of LoL-players (who are also former WoW players) would like to be able to design their own characters, customize their class, and play in a non-isometric UI. Gw2 has the perfect chance to sweep in and do this, but it’s missing the major feature that keeps people playing LoL: The ability to play with your friends.

What’s the point in a multiplayer game you cannot play with the people whose company you enjoy? Honestly, Arena.net, not sure how you missed the ball on this one so hard. Everyone I know has abandoned GW2 largely because of the absence of this feature. Your community is hemorrhaging players, and this is your one obvious solution.

You don’t even need to abandon the wishes of the few lone pubbies, who for some reason like to queue solo for PvP. Simply leave a few games in your PvP lobby that still forcibly scramble the teams. However, switch over to 1-5 man group queue for the rest. No game successful in the MMO or MOBA PvP world lacks this feature. Not one.

If you don’t add it, the SPvP’s chance for long-lasting popularity is done for. I say this as a player who would love to come back, but have no incentive with the current inability to engage in fun, conveniently-joined PvP with my friends.

Anyhoo, good luck. Hope you guys make the right choice. (Though if you haven’t yet, with all the QQ already out there, I’m not exactly crossing my fingers.)