Guild Wars 2

Lindbur.2537:

Correct me if I’m wrong, folks, but it seems to me that in terms of might stacking ability,
staff ele < PS warrior < other ele builds?

Maybe I’m just bad but D/F is kinda /meh in the might stacking category, better than staff but much worse than scepter. You get what, earth 4, water 3 and 5, Awave, and Abril? So I’d imagine you’d be lacking if you relied solely on that D/F Ele, of course if you had some other outside blasts that’d change things.

I’m still a fan of PS at times, it may not always be optimal but it sure is easy mode and sometimes that’s nice.

dlonie.6547:

Mmmm, savory soppin’ muffins….I like the way you think.

I’m sure any canadians will know this one, but ever had a hot hamburger sandwich?

Toasted bread, open face on a plate. Cover with ground beef, and brown gravy made from cooking the beef. Like southern biscuits and gravy, but less of a pain to make. Yuuuum.

Those Canadians and their gravy. Gotta love ’em.

Sounds amazing, and I’d be down for some poutine right now

IllegalChocolate.6938:

I appreciate the feedback Jerus but the comment in regards to defensive gear is gonna spin us into a circular argument. Defensive Gear is so much more than that and it can be so much more than how its viewed in the PvE community(again, roots to implementation of PvE dungeon encounters, how PvE is set up forces it down this road).

My ideas do not implore changing the core systems for the sake of changing it in any way but instead unifies it by improving on it with other existing elements playing into Anet’s bigger picture goals, allow me to go into detail. Remember this video?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFWJ23pi2EU#t=2062

skip to Hugh’s comments in regards to bringing PvErs into sPvP.

Now remember back to my very first posts here.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/balance/The-zerker-meta-and-how-to-change-it/first#post4565580

Now remember what Anet wants to push.

Ideologies of WvW and sPvP can in some way be compatible(In some form, its much more isolate in sPvP, which is stat archetype+build setup = position with advantages and disadvantages all under player skill discretion) but we have a rift in values with how gear and traits are viewed in PvE. The rift is there and doesn’t burst until that hard lump is overcome.

Now what if you can give PvErs a good taste of it without them knowing? Like slipping in healthy veggies into a kids mac & cheese or blending spinach into his milk shake with no noticeable change in flavor without him noticing the difference and liking it?

See where I am going with this?

This has become circular and I apologies.

I hear what you’re saying, I just think it’s a lot easier said than done. Not only mechanically but also finding a way to execute some of your ideas in a way that actually has it being fun. I mean how many people enjoy fighting thieves in PVP? It’s something you have to deal with but do people really enjoy the act of fighting them? So would making stealthing enemies be fun, or annoying… look how popular Mossman is… one shots from stealth sure are fun…

And not only that, they have enemies that dodge, but it’s done so in a scripted manner. Look at Arah p3, hunter/crusher, hunter will only dodge back if he’s targetted, so what do people do, well they learned that and they simply avoid targetting him letting him die to cleave damage. I don’t know if it’s a technical limitation but fact is we simply learned the AI requirements and know what to avoid to maximize our efforts.

I just don’t know how realistic or even fun more AI would be. And even then, is it really going to achieve the goals of more diversity and options?

If enemies learn to dodge fields, then doesn’t that eliminate many options? Why use Lava Font, Acid Bomb, Smoke Field, Smite… etc basically any field we use if enemies are simply going to take a step out of it after the first tick? Doesn’t that render a lot of options pointless? No more reason for any of those weapons as it’ll just cause movement.

How do you add AI without making the game more tedious and annoying than fun?

One thing I do really agree on is I’d love to see more boon effects, especially retaliation. It’d give boon stripping a purpose, but then agian, that wouldn’t really affect the gear choices, just trait/utility/weapon choices again.

MM cake… though always been a pie guy

It’s silly how easy this recipe for muffins is though. And so many variations. Like tonight I put dried chopped onions in it and some garlic powder, then cooked it extra long to get it a little stale, then used it to soak up the leftover liquid from my stew like concoction (basically potatoes with soup over top). It was amazing… microwave chef!

I think I’m gonna pick up some frozen berries next time I’m at the store and really pack the thing full of them. Make a nice dessert.

The microwave is my best friend, good, delicious, healthy dinners and I clean up 2 dishes and it takes me about 10 minutes to cook and clean.

IllegalChocolate.6938:

<snip>

I appreciate your time in understanding me.

Ever played the Witcher games? it gets a lot of praise, has a parallel ideology (I plan on getting The Witcher 3 the moment it comes out)? Of course the difference with the Witcher games is that when a different approach is made and succeeds, a different flavor of the reward is given. Tons of different branches.

What if you could isolate the strengths of those systems into a dungeon? Personal opinion, would be one of the best designed dungeons in the entirety of MMO Gaming, would make headlines.

Aye, I think there are a lot of good ideas out there on how to handle games in general. I think there is some reason in creating a system that gives options and promotes different roles. Simply put though, that’s not GW2 and changing the game 2 years into it is IMO unreasonable and a bad idea.

I think back to other games I played, DCUO we often took someone in tank role but with DPS gear into more trivial content because by being in tank role they could play the part of the setup, gathering everything together so they could be quickly killed. They’d lose personal damage (about 1/3 of their damage lost) but as a group we’d gain because of the easy cleaving. So there definitely can be benefits to alternative roles even in speed clears, I just don’t see that being in the realm of GW2’s combat system without creating gimmicky events.

I really feel though that GW2’s system is quite strong, it’s just different. I don’t see the problem with the system, I think it’s just the mentality of players to focus on gear stats rather than builds as a whole. You can still be a very support oriented player helping groups get through content easily. Hammer guard… my god can you make things easy. And, Mesmers, some of the things you can do are pretty impressive, I don’t know if anyone has tried messing around with Illusionary Defenders in mediocre pug groups, but that thing has some power if people aren’t dodging properly, I remember using it in COE p1 just to check out how well it mitigated that tooth damage that many people just eat. It was impressive to say the least.

So, sure the ideal is everyone plays meta builds perfectly, but realistically there is a lot more depth to be had because not everyone is capable of doing that, or simply doesn’t want to put that level of effort in. That depth just isn’t in the pure gear, but in the other elements of a build. Defensive gear is for if you personally are struggling, supportive traits and weapon choices are to help your teammates get through.

Ulfberht.8519:

Zerker works so well for pve because the ai is straight up scripted, dumb, and predictable. Without a real challenge, there is no reason to use anything else. If they added some REAL ai, then zerk gear would be much harder to use. Imagine pve enemies that can dodge, use group tactics, are unpredictable, and are basically like fighting a group of pvp players. Doubt it will happen though because people love steamrolling pve, and feeling all Godlike…

Everytime I see claims like this I have to ask, care to upload some videos of you tearing up PVE because it’s so easy? Have some <5min Lupi solos without the wall reflect gimmick? What about near record run group dungeon speed clears? Or do you just like to claim it’s all so easy because it makes you feel better about yourself?

IllegalChocolate.6938:

Jerus.4350:

… That’s creating all new content, we’re talking about adjusting all current content to not fit the zerker meta. How do you do that without completely remaking the entire game?

And I can tell you even after reading the first paragraph, I’m not into that. Restricting the use of abilities doesn’t make things fun. And reliance on NPCs… no thanks. The idea as a whole, while might be fun to you, doesn’t sound fun to me, it sounds gimmicky and annoying.

I appreciate you taking the time to create an example but that’s just my honest opinion on it. Look at Aetherpath, how often is it run? Gimmicks simply aren’t as replayable as the core mechanics, at least IMO.

As you read further you’ll see options without NPC reliance. Regardless this is an arbitrary example to give an idea as to how content can be layered or balanced to play into various strengths.

My goal is to allow other options to flourish without taking away systems that people are already used to, rather to add systems that allow other ideals a chance of fruition as long as the dedication is behind it. No one likes having things taken away from them and I don’t either.

Wooden Potatoe’s suggestions as far as character sheet rebalancing takes things away from people, whenever I got something taken away it got real irritating real fast. As far as those ideals are concerned, nerf bats can go swing somewhere else.

Ohh as a player it’s 100X better than his suggestions of simply creating a new meta that relies on defense.

But, what you suggest is pretty unrealistic. They’d essentially be taking a single dungeon and designing multiple paths for the same outcome. You can go down the “I’m super tanky and I’m taking the gimmicky road”. Or you’d take the “I’m just gonna kill everything screw this” way.

If I were a dev I’d be saying “umm, no, just accept the game as designed”

But that’s me.

Again I appreciate the thought, and they aren’t terrible ideas, in other games there are gear choices that you make for different reasons, here they simplified gear to offense/defense, and let us use the trait system to define our build, and each player is going to be expected to take part in the support, control and damage aspects of the game. We’re all playing hybrids.

KevinB.9643:

So how about 5 Berserker Ele’s: 4 with a LH conjurer build and 1 staff camping lava font spammer? Or would this be a huge dps loss?

Should only need 1 LH Ele honestly, the rest could be going staff, you still have 2 easy blasts on staff with AB and Awave, add in earth 2 and that’s 3. Though you’d miss out on a token warrior for banner which is a very nice addition. And, you’d be missing any utility offered by other professions, no stealth, no strong reflects (though enough projectile defense), limited condi removal, no aegis, limited blinds, etc. I’m sure 5 Ele’s could handle quite a bit pretty well, but the question is would you want to? or would grabbing a guard/thief/mesmer be worth it for the ease they can supply?

I’d say as a general group setup something like:
Guard/mesmer
Thief/Engi
Staff Ele
LH Ele
Warrior

would likely do you pretty well, providing stealth, projectile defense, plenty of might and vuln as well as stability and other general defensive tools.

And don’t forget the need for defiance stripping, something Thief and Mesmer’s really excel at.

dlonie.6547:

Ugh, I’m so tired and sick of nitpicky people that I can’t even tell if I’m being sarcastic or not. I’m trying to just be understanding and not stir things up, but it just sounds sarcastic when I read it back.

I should go watch some Sarcastaball or something.

We’re talking about a Die Hard ANet brown-noser here, all he does is try to poke holes in any complaints anyone ever has about what they are doing, he gets some sick satisfaction in it. That’s why I couldn’t help but point out his use of “everybody” after he pulled the semantics card earlier in the thread, sorry for that but I really couldn’t help but point it out. The guy is full of himself.

ANet knows what we’re asking. I take the silence to mean that they have no good answer for us. Lets be honest, we all know that to be true at this point. That thread was more or less a last chance to talk and say we’re wrong. It’s on them, do they take this opportunity or do they confirm our beliefs?

… That’s creating all new content, we’re talking about adjusting all current content to not fit the zerker meta. How do you do that without completely remaking the entire game?

And I can tell you even after reading the first paragraph, I’m not into that. Restricting the use of abilities doesn’t make things fun. And reliance on NPCs… no thanks. The idea as a whole, while might be fun to you, doesn’t sound fun to me, it sounds gimmicky and annoying.

I appreciate you taking the time to create an example but that’s just my honest opinion on it. Look at Aetherpath, how often is it run? Gimmicks simply aren’t as replayable as the core mechanics, at least IMO.

I <3 arah, only thing I’m interested in at this point, but soloing is tedious and finding groups isn’t always so easy, so I haven’t logged in for the past two days.

Back to food topics… I just found out about microwave muffins in a mug… my god…

I’ve seen people argue it, but in my experience if you’re lacking might a PS warrior helps but yeah, ideally you want that solid Ele.

…

“take the place of” There’s the definition of supersede. If you want to insist that gear choices negate the need for good choices in the other areas, well… go ahead, I feel no need to convince you, I’m simply making statements that I assumed would be met with more than attempts to deflect

No the reverse does not work in regards to trait choices and gear choices. You have 2 options for gear, offense or defense, with slight variations on how those ends are met. (crit/power/condi and health/mitigation/healing).

Same thing as the OP said just a little different, point is you’d need effects that did more than just made yourself tankier for non offensive stats to be worthwhile past being a crutch for imperfect play.

As for your responses to spoj… I simply can’t support the idea of major reworks to core concepts years into a game. Sorry, seen that backfire and it’s not fun (RIP DCUO). And this exact same topic comes up weekly, not everyone really wants to repeatedly discuss the options, at a certain point it’s talking to a wall. People have a dream of what the game could be, and that’s fine, but actually changing it into that… we’re talking a major overhaul of the entire game… not only is it not going to happen but if it did I doubt it’d go over smoothly. Like you said, we can’t even get weapon additions and people think we can get a rework of the entire system? LOL I enjoy the core mechanics of the game, I just want more challenging content for me to use it in.

Leo G.4501:

Jerus.4350:

Leo G.4501:

spoj.9672:

Leo G.4501:

Seera.5916:

So someone who specs in healing power and boons should be able to complete content at the same rate as someone who specs for power and condition damage?

Boons would have be really really really powerful.

But then those who spec for power and boons would then be the meta, wouldn’kitten Increase base damage and those really powerful boons will just multiply that.

Using an example that I’m most knowledgeable in:

In City of Heroes, the most offensively weakest archetype was the Defender who was a primarily buffer/debuffer type with a secondary function of ranged damage. Yet when it came down to defeating the high tier content, the most powerful and capable archetype for that was also the Defender.

Sure, you could have your team of Scrappers and Brutes (melee DPS) go toe to toe with the same content, survive and kill, but you could also have your team of Defenders, Corruptors (basically slightly more offensive Defenders) and Controllers (basically Defenders but with more control type skills) do the exact same content, survive and kill. It was because they could debuff the foes into kittens (stacking debuffs) ontop of buffing your team to gods (stacking buffs) and bam.

Can i ask something. How is that any different to how it is in GW2? You can use defensive and balanced builds and defeat bosses with them. Berserker isnt required. Its just faster. And it should be.

The hypothetical was asked “so a healing power and boon spec should be able to clear content the same as a power and condi spec. How?” and I answered it.

You say berserker is faster and it should be. I agree, berserker spec should have the highest and fastest personal damage capabilities because it’s all burst damage. But then that has nothing to do with buffing a team with high might and fury, getting tons of on-hit and on-crit procs, mitigating all the damage with conditions/dodges/blocks/reflects/etc. You’re stating that zerk should kill the fastest. From a hypothetical standpoint, though, I’m starting to agree with others that say zerkers shouldn’t get their cake and eat it too, not when other specs only get a small slice of cake and aren’t allowed to eat.

I can’t help but play the semantics game for a second.

You say “Specs”, no no no

Zerk is a gear choice, not a spec.

If an Ele wants to optimally stack might and fury they’re going to get strength runes, and run a scepter build that relies on Lightning Hammer to do it’s damage, which has quite a few drawbacks. If you execute the rotation properly you can do good damage, if you can’t… you’er stuck doing poor damage but stacking might (if you can at least manage that). Optimal damage would be staff assuming someone else is covering the might.

Same with Phalanx, you’re still going to wear zerk, but you are sacrificing quite a bit of damage to cap off the might damage.

Look at guard, you rarely get a chance to run full damage because it’s simply stupid to not take the defensive traits and skills as that’s your forte.

There are full damage, full support, and whatever variation of Specs, there’s just either offensive or defensive gear.

Well perhaps that is the issue the OP wishes to target, hm?

Perhaps it’s that gear seems to supersedes spec far more than it should? And that gear tends to lock you into limited strategies and priorities? Perhaps the idea of simply adjusting what the stats do isn’t the only thing that could be proposed here?

It doesn’t supersede the specs, it’s simply an element of it. Zerk is simply the start of a DPS build, you gain a LOT of damage through trait/sigil/rune/weapon choices, but with that you can also gain a lot of support as well.

Again, Gear is simply general offense vs defense. Why is that a problem? Could it be more complex? sure, but then we’d need more stats than just what controls offense and defense, we’d need a boon duration set (givers can hardly be called that honestly, it’s crap), we’d need some stat that controls how long utilities last and all that stuff, in other words we’d need to remake the game…

Gnat.9405:

I just geared my Warrior for a Phalanx Strength build, and my question is simply: why take an ele over this warrior build?

Assuming that’s still the case, of course.

As far as I can tell might stacking is the main reason to bring ele, aside from the occasional conjure uses. Does Lightning Hammmer might build offer the DPS to justify bringing over phalanx?

My rationalization is that Ele’s Fire field uptime may outshine warrior might stacking in organized play since people are properly blasting, etc. Is that the case?

Thanks!

Ele > Phalanx ideally.

Mainly because Ele sacrifices MUCH less damage to do might stacking as well as giving perma fury. Warrior as far as I know won’t be able to give perma fury. I want to say it’s something like 14k for staff ele vs 13k for LH ele, and like 13k for full dps warrior vs 9k for PS warrior. So a much higher damage loss to get that might.

Ele also provides some nice things like Vuln capping with crit trait and with Glyph of Storms. Sandstorm is also great for blind. Swirling Winds for projectiles. And various other things (including the amazing Ice bow, and even FGS can be useful for long runs).

There’s a reason people stack Ele’s.

That said I love PS when there is no ele or a bad ele, or for whatever reason fire fields are continually being blocked.

Leo G.4501:

spoj.9672:

Leo G.4501:

Seera.5916:

So someone who specs in healing power and boons should be able to complete content at the same rate as someone who specs for power and condition damage?

Boons would have be really really really powerful.

But then those who spec for power and boons would then be the meta, wouldn’kitten Increase base damage and those really powerful boons will just multiply that.

Using an example that I’m most knowledgeable in:

In City of Heroes, the most offensively weakest archetype was the Defender who was a primarily buffer/debuffer type with a secondary function of ranged damage. Yet when it came down to defeating the high tier content, the most powerful and capable archetype for that was also the Defender.

Sure, you could have your team of Scrappers and Brutes (melee DPS) go toe to toe with the same content, survive and kill, but you could also have your team of Defenders, Corruptors (basically slightly more offensive Defenders) and Controllers (basically Defenders but with more control type skills) do the exact same content, survive and kill. It was because they could debuff the foes into kittens (stacking debuffs) ontop of buffing your team to gods (stacking buffs) and bam.

Can i ask something. How is that any different to how it is in GW2? You can use defensive and balanced builds and defeat bosses with them. Berserker isnt required. Its just faster. And it should be.

The hypothetical was asked “so a healing power and boon spec should be able to clear content the same as a power and condi spec. How?” and I answered it.

You say berserker is faster and it should be. I agree, berserker spec should have the highest and fastest personal damage capabilities because it’s all burst damage. But then that has nothing to do with buffing a team with high might and fury, getting tons of on-hit and on-crit procs, mitigating all the damage with conditions/dodges/blocks/reflects/etc. You’re stating that zerk should kill the fastest. From a hypothetical standpoint, though, I’m starting to agree with others that say zerkers shouldn’t get their cake and eat it too, not when other specs only get a small slice of cake and aren’t allowed to eat.

I can’t help but play the semantics game for a second.

You say “Specs”, no no no

Zerk is a gear choice, not a spec.

If an Ele wants to optimally stack might and fury they’re going to get strength runes, and run a scepter build that relies on Lightning Hammer to do it’s damage, which has quite a few drawbacks. If you execute the rotation properly you can do good damage, if you can’t… you’er stuck doing poor damage but stacking might (if you can at least manage that). Optimal damage would be staff assuming someone else is covering the might.

Same with Phalanx, you’re still going to wear zerk, but you are sacrificing quite a bit of damage to cap off the might damage.

Look at guard, you rarely get a chance to run full damage because it’s simply stupid to not take the defensive traits and skills as that’s your forte.

There are full damage, full support, and whatever variation of Specs, there’s just either offensive or defensive gear.

Seera.5916:

IllegalChocolate.6938:

Harper.4173:

IllegalChocolate.6938:

DaveGan.8065:

IllegalChocolate.6938:

I honestly can’t give you any suggestion on filtering alternatives. I’ve always given everyone I met an honest chance, to get to know them, but I guess that is where I’m different.

To be brutally honest, most people aren’t about fairness, but quickness in this game. As I mentioned before, gear is a choice everyone can make and equality of opportunity exists for the most part.

Referencing your unquoted bit, I’m pretty sure you understood my logic, but intentionally chose not to accept it. You showed your understanding when you brought up “filtering alternatives”.

You also don’t need to be so passive aggressive or personal. I’m not very elitist myself (I generally ask for 80 zerkers but do not check gear or traits), nor do I do many dungeons anymore. However, I absolutely support a group’s right to prioritize quickness over fairness even with the use of not-always-reliable filtering and profiling.

I understand this mentality as my previous proposals seek to rebalance the setups that allow multitudes of ideologies be competitive in the terms of quickness. I am not asking for everyone to slow down, I am asking for everyone the ability to be competitive as long as the dedication is as strong. Take a look at my previous suggestions that don’t have me wailing on the zerker meta from a personal opinion standpoint, I personally find them reasonable.

Flawed, but I believe my ideas to be in the right direction as far as making content that can be considered threatening but with its own forgiving systems.

I’m sorry but this isn’t some form of Anime – where the hero just wills his way to victory.
Wanting to be good doesn’t equal being good. Being good takes time, takes practice, knowledge, time investment and will.

Just because a group of bad players wants it very much to be just as fast as the group that has basically dedicated their in-game time to being great at the game doesn’t mean the game should change to give them similar clear times.

Just because a player who has 500 hours of gametime wants to be just as effective as someone who’s put in well over 2000 doesn’t mean that the game should accommodate that.

You want to be good? You want competitive clear times? Work for it. Gear for it. Learn the encounters. Learn your class. Practice. Execute flawlessly and then you’ll have it.

Why hand it out freely? Just because they want to and are doing the best they can?
Maybe sometimes – just like in life – your best isn’t good enough. My best wasn’t good enough when I first put on zerker gear but I worked towards it and made it work.

The game doesn’t have to change to accommodate for these players – they have to change adapt and improve.

You don’t understand my perspective.

I am saying if two people have 2000 hours of gameplay with the same skill ceiling but have different skillsets and statistical strengths, they should be able to succeed in roughly the same time as long as they are tackling the challenges using their advantages.

So someone who specs in healing power and boons should be able to complete content at the same rate as someone who specs for power and condition damage?

Boons would have be really really really powerful.

But then those who spec for power and boons would then be the meta, wouldn’kitten Increase base damage and those really powerful boons will just multiply that.

Don’t we have the with Ele + Str Runes?

IllegalChocolate.6938:

Harper.4173:

IllegalChocolate.6938:

DaveGan.8065:

IllegalChocolate.6938:

I honestly can’t give you any suggestion on filtering alternatives. I’ve always given everyone I met an honest chance, to get to know them, but I guess that is where I’m different.

To be brutally honest, most people aren’t about fairness, but quickness in this game. As I mentioned before, gear is a choice everyone can make and equality of opportunity exists for the most part.

Referencing your unquoted bit, I’m pretty sure you understood my logic, but intentionally chose not to accept it. You showed your understanding when you brought up “filtering alternatives”.

You also don’t need to be so passive aggressive or personal. I’m not very elitist myself (I generally ask for 80 zerkers but do not check gear or traits), nor do I do many dungeons anymore. However, I absolutely support a group’s right to prioritize quickness over fairness even with the use of not-always-reliable filtering and profiling.

I understand this mentality as my previous proposals seek to rebalance the setups that allow multitudes of ideologies be competitive in the terms of quickness. I am not asking for everyone to slow down, I am asking for everyone the ability to be competitive as long as the dedication is as strong. Take a look at my previous suggestions that don’t have me wailing on the zerker meta from a personal opinion standpoint, I personally find them reasonable.

Flawed, but I believe my ideas to be in the right direction as far as making content that can be considered threatening but with its own forgiving systems.

I’m sorry but this isn’t some form of Anime – where the hero just wills his way to victory.
Wanting to be good doesn’t equal being good. Being good takes time, takes practice, knowledge, time investment and will.

Just because a group of bad players wants it very much to be just as fast as the group that has basically dedicated their in-game time to being great at the game doesn’t mean the game should change to give them similar clear times.

Just because a player who has 500 hours of gametime wants to be just as effective as someone who’s put in well over 2000 doesn’t mean that the game should accommodate that.

You want to be good? You want competitive clear times? Work for it. Gear for it. Learn the encounters. Learn your class. Practice. Execute flawlessly and then you’ll have it.

Why hand it out freely? Just because they want to and are doing the best they can?
Maybe sometimes – just like in life – your best isn’t good enough. My best wasn’t good enough when I first put on zerker gear but I worked towards it and made it work.

The game doesn’t have to change to accommodate for these players – they have to change adapt and improve.

You don’t understand my perspective.

I am saying if two people have 2000 hours of gameplay with the same skill ceiling but have different skillsets and statistical strengths, they should be able to succeed in roughly the same time as long as they are tackling the challenges using their advantages.

In the spirit of full understanding, how would you say change the Lupicus encounter to reward being in PVT gear and make it the same speed as full zerk? How would being tanky benefit in this situation?

A tank’s role is not simply to eat damage, but to get the damage off the group and position things properly. If agro mechanics were consistent and controllable you’d open up the door for people to play a tank role.

As far as the comparison to WvW/sPVP, what are you wanting? PVE to become about sitting on a node and surviving? Or about running through arrow cart damage?

I appreciate the use of “Dolt” because I love that word, but that edit was good, so you do want a trinity system, just not a required one… ok…

I really don’t see why people can’t understand and accept GW2’s system for what it is. The gear is only part of it, it’s your ratio of general offense vs general defense. From there you choose weapons, traits, sigils, and runes and htat’s where you truly specialize and can create some fun and worthwhile combinations outside of the meta, meta is simply either mathmatical max potentials or suggested options. There are a lot of variations that are good.

IllegalChocolate, What you’re asking for can’t happen without the introduction of the trinity system. You’re asking for a reason to stack defense and have it be just as useful… you’re asking for tanks to exist, and if you count healing power as well… you’re asking for healers… NO

Just no, this isn’t that kind of game, stop it.

Jim Hunter.6821:

I think this might make engi’s a little too strong. Right now they are pretty balanced around sacrificing kits for other useful utilities that offer better condi removal or stun breaks.

On normal weapon I have all my kits.

When I go to Grenades I’ll have Elixer B and U
When I go to FT I’ll have Rocket Boots and Goggles
When I go Elixer Gun I’ll have my other Elixers.

I can dig this

I’d add that SOE as a company goes as far as having an entire weekend convention called SOELive to release their plans for the next year. This includes panels for each individual games as well as new games being introduced.

DCUO in 2013 even went as far as to announce their plans for 3 years out, broad plans (basically that there would be about 3DLC’s per year and it’d be 3 different storylines, amazon fury, New Genesis, and War of the Light with 3 episodes to each).

spoj.9672:

There never should of been gear stats in PvE. It should be entirely through traits, runes and sigils. But its too late for that now. You just have to live with it.

I don’t fully disagree, but I can honestly say I was glad to have the defensive power of Soldier gear when I started the game, as I learned I was able to strip it away, but it was much easier learning in gear that I didn’t splat on every mistake than in the gear where a mistake meant missing out on the rest of the fight. At least in some cases, others I didn’t fully learn till I went full out and took the “sink or swim” mentality.

IllegalChocolate.6938:

if I switch out into PvT or anything else now I’m considered inexperienced? I can still solo dungeons in straight zerker, I’m still the same capable person so why is that second round of judgement passed? .

Snipped that out.

Why? because you’re consciously making a decision to make it easier on yourself while contributing less to the group.

It’s really as simple as that.

You’ll be doing less than half the damage you could have been doing and what’s the tradeoff there? It lets YOU have more defense so if YOU screw up you don’t die, no benefit to the group.

Why should anyone treat you like anything other than a selfish kitten or a noob if that’s how you’re acting? And at least personally, I have no problems with noobs, but people who know better still sticking in that defensive gear… why? I mean at least stack healing power and do something there, it’s unneeded but it’s at least something that can be used.

Alga.6498:

I don’t even knew it was something that were calling Viola, lol.
I do know the difference between Cello and Violin, but Viola..? Never heard of it! :O
Oh well, I’d like to see either one of them, mostly Violin since it are the most nicest to hear..
Add Harp aswell! I would loove to hear beautiful harp-music..!

Viola is very similar to a violin but larger and a deeper rich sound.

And there is a Harp : http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Musical_Harp

Vayne.8563:

Jerus.4350:

Vayne.8563:

People can only say the living world isn’t content if they’re dismissing new zones as well. And new enemies with new mechanics. And new dynamic events.

A few months ago, everyone was saying new zones, new skills, new weapons, new classes, new races.

We’ve gotten two new zones, but everyone says the Living Story is a couple of hours.

If that’s all the play you can get from a new zone, no MMO is the world is going to be able to provide enough content.

Not everyone plays for open world event stuff.

There are multiple parts of the game, focusing on only one and abandoning the rest is why many people are frustrated (btw, not using everybody/community)

I don’t want those things you said people were asking for, I just want more dungeons and maybe something in WvW as I’m primarily a dungeoneer and secondary being WvW. Open world stuff is where I go when I have nothing better to do and want to soak up some rewards for little to no effort.

So again, the question and point of this thread is to try and get ANet to let us know if we should give up, or should we hold out hope?

Nothing to do with what I said mate. I’ve seen again and again the words the living story content, as in the new updates are two hours of content.

If Anet introduced a new dungeon, even though I don’t prefer dungeons to other content, I wouldn’t say no content has been released, nor would I say an update has two hours of content if I did the dungeon once in two hours and never did it again.

It’s disingenuous, it’s unfair and it’s ignoring a lot of hard work and effort. Particularly seeing as how well the new update has been received.

I get that different people want different things. It’s no reason to dismiss what’s there because you don’t play it though.

You could take it that way, or you could try and see the point those people are trying to make and not worry about the semantics of it. They’re saying they get 2-4 hours out of the content, that’s it. They find the replay value of it low and simply hit it to get the quick rewards then go back to their preferred areas of game play which are being left for dead.

In the post I quoted before you said “everybody was saying” I didn’t take that to literally mean everybody, no, you meant there was a LOT of people asking for those things.

As for your comment about no MMO being able to support people with that attitude, I completely disagree. I played EQ for 15 years because they supported all aspects of their PVE play open world, advanced group(dungeon type stuff), and raids. That’s the key here, ANet has dropped support for all but their Open World gameplay.

So again, I return to the topic (sorry dlonie for getting off track, lots of tangential topics to this thread) What are we going to see moving forward? Are there any plans to do more than the open world?

Vayne.8563:

People can only say the living world isn’t content if they’re dismissing new zones as well. And new enemies with new mechanics. And new dynamic events.

A few months ago, everyone was saying new zones, new skills, new weapons, new classes, new races.

We’ve gotten two new zones, but everyone says the Living Story is a couple of hours.

If that’s all the play you can get from a new zone, no MMO is the world is going to be able to provide enough content.

Not everyone plays for open world event stuff.

There are multiple parts of the game, focusing on only one and abandoning the rest is why many people are frustrated (btw, not using everybody/community)

I don’t want those things you said people were asking for, I just want more dungeons and maybe something in WvW as I’m primarily a dungeoneer and secondary being WvW. Open world stuff is where I go when I have nothing better to do and want to soak up some rewards for little to no effort.

So again, the question and point of this thread is to try and get ANet to let us know if we should give up, or should we hold out hope?

Lindbur.2537:

Would be nice if Season 2 ended with an Arah-esque dungeon.

… if only.

I mean, I don’t see why LS can’t include other aspects.

“The battle with mordremoth has grown so large that it’s caused a rift inthe mists opening up new land, Will your world be the first to claim this new land?” Boom new WvW maps with a desert/jungle theme

“As the battle in the mists rages on the battles have grown ever more intense, there will be no victory until you completely wipe out your enemies, enjoy the new Deathmatch PVP map” OMG new game type!

“As we draw closer to mordremoth we head underground into that dark dank cavern, choose your path and defeat mordremoths champions if you can” yay dungeon!

I don’t see why it can’t be worked in /shrug.

Wolfmoon.2976:

Going to also post this video, has some good ideas especially around the 11 minute mark

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBOlaYlBBZA

Please god no.
This isn’t a trinity game.

People need to take a minute, shake out this idea of what an mmo “should be” that they’re all stuck on.

Then sit back down and see GW2 for what it is, an action game placed into an MMO.

It’s PVE is built upon an idea of Read and React. You’re given tools to handle different things, and if you act correctly you’re going to come out more or less unscathed. That’s the design of the game, it’s beautiful.

If you want a game that’s about managing health bars, tanking, and other stuff like that… well there’s plenty out there, but it’s not GW2.

A gimmicky event that supports tank gear, I can agree with him on that, everything else he talks about in that video is promoting GW2 getting closer to a trinity system.

I remember that one dlonie… I’m going to go cry and eat some yogurt maybe it’ll taste better with tears.

GrimmR.3541:

I like carrots!

On Pizza???

Hmm, I mean I love cooked carrots, sweet but not too sweet, so I’d be curious.

Kirby.1564:

Tree.3916:

Have you considered skipping this optional boss?

have you considered reading my post?

“very few if any 1 tries to kill him any more so he is wasted. either take him out of the game or make him take less than 1 and a 1/2 hours to kill.” skipping is what people do and it makes him a waste of space

And here I am praying that little event message pops up each time I run by his hidey hole. Takes my group like 30s or less to kill him usually and lets some timers cooldown for kholer.

Chowder sauce… ohh god… that sounds so good.

First I read Ropechef’s breakfast analogy to zerker meta, now this… ugh I need food!

hybrid.5027:

Acid bomb hits nearly as hard as Hundred Blades. Unlike Hundred Blades it isn’t a channeled skill, so while the Acid Bomb damage is ticking, you are able to do other attacks. Imagine a warrior who was able to use a Hundred Blades and while that is channeling he can swap to axe and do an axe auto chain at the same time.

So yeah, that is how over the top OP Acid Bomb is. If you don’t use Acid Bomb you might as well not be playing Engineer.

As much as I agree, I still drop it when I start killing myself (and sometimes my group) with it

Ropechef.6192:

When I First started Cooking Professionally I was working in a corporate Cafe. Made Breakfast and lunch for around 400 or so people. Starting at around 5 Am. I learned how to cook Eggs. I cooked all sorts of styles of Eggs and I used a 3 foot by 6 foot Flat Iron skillet. Because It was what we had.

Handfull of years Later I find myself in a Local Diner. The 24 hour breakfast type place. Had a big flat iron as well as a bunch of other things. First Day on the job I get asked if I know how to “flip” eggs using a non stick pan.

“Guess I am learning today”

2 dozen eggs later I could get a decent Flip. And By the time I was Done working there I could double Flip a 4 yolk.

Did that make My flat iron any worse for cooking Eggs? not really. I just Ended up using it for other things. and left my eggs to their pans and the spiders. Allowing me to be more efficient and have more things going on. But it came at the cost of really stepping up my game and paying even more attention to so many other things at the same time.

The risk came from if I missed one thing inevitably it all came crashing down. the reward? I could pump out more tickets and make my dining populous happy by getting their food at a reasonable time and still tasting good. Could I have just used the Flat Iron? Certainly, it just would have taken me twice as long. but I would have had less chance to screw up.

I got good at it. It took a little bit of time but I got better. and I could do more with less than when I first started.

So….
Do you take my non stick? and maybe make my Flat Iron bigger?
Do you delete Berserker Gear and make something else “more Viable”

How about instead of Us constantly going back and forth and arguing.

Give us a new and different Egg?

because frankly I, and many others are sick of everyone complaining about, and trying to give flawed logic on how we should change the chicken.

Your responses are always great… but they always leave me very hungry!

hybrid.5027:

One funny thing about the zerk meta bs…

The original strife-way meta was 3 zerk/knights mix warriors with ruby orbs, a zerk mesmer, and a full knights guardian with ruby orbs.

The whole “tanky gear as training wheels” argument that they want to deny so badly is so evidently true. Sure, I cannot imagine the devs sat around during the Pre-alpha days and thought it out like that, but the result of the game design is so evident based on what players have actually done in the game’s history that denying it is absurd. I suspect that part of the reason that some people are so angry with the idea of tanky gear as training wheels is because they are insulted by the insinuation that they use training wheels.

I started in Soldier gear, and kitten I needed it, I repeatedly died even in that. Now I run full zerk in everything and while I’m far from as good as many of the people here I feel pretty comfortable in it.

and yeah desade I had to throw that in, couldn’t resist the one troll post… i mean as alcohol levels rise the urge to troll follows.

Yes, lets make a massive change to gameplay years after release, it’s always so successful when games do that…

I fully agree in that I set a rule for myself YEARS ago back when I was playing EQ hardcore… In game I’ll teach anyone that’s willing to ask. If you’re willing to ask that means you’re willing to listen, and yeah more than happy to help.

The one difference is again, when I post on these forums it’s usually because I’m bored and don’t have anything else to do

Didn’t even log into the game today, first in quite a while. Honestly have no desire to play anything but Arah lately and well… not many buddies to play it with and really there aren’t many PUG groups that do it. Soloing gets boring(esp since I’m still not a Lupi pro, let alone Alphard) so might as well play a single player RPG, thinking about getting Dark Souls, looks fun.

VitalSuit.1980:

Ameno.6813:

Engi if you want to be a hipster like the rest of us, Ele if you wan’t to be relevant in the PvE meta.

But engis are relevant in the PvE meta? Vuln stacking, now that FGS was nerfed Eles can’t vuln stack anywhere near as well as us.

Yes, and No, Ele’s have the burst Vuln stacking taht is more than enough for most of the Record Run content. Engis have the sustain Vuln which earns them a spot in your daily running and longer fights.

deSade.9437:

Jerus.4350:

So… DA:O… been a while since I found it worthwhile to read the story text…

Ikr. It’s weird, not having to press enter or whatever like a madman in a rush to skip the cutscenes, but actually enjoying them…
And the characters? Yeah.

Question: how the hell can you (and someone else of you tras—-guys) keep repeating the same things over and over, always falling on deaf ears, without going insane?
I’m referring to the “how to fix stacking or whateverthehellthatis” thread.

Ehh, I have no problem wasting a few minute of my life in the hope that someone with a reasonable brain reads it and goes “ohh wait… maybe he has a point”. If I catch 1/100 people with it, it’s more than worth it… especially since I do the majority of my posting when I’m bored and don’t care about wasting time.

Really though, every MMO follows the same rules. I’m far from excellent at this game, but I was in the high end of the games I played previously. It’s always cut any defense you don’t absolutely need, and then stack the offense as much as possible. Really not a hard concept to understand and it’s basically universal in these games outside of gimmicky events like this latest living story, which I did find fun, gimmicks aren’t bad but they dont’ make up the core content.

dlonie, tried whitesauce? I imagine a rich creamy sauce would be great, mainly because Clam Chowder in Sourdough Bowls are freaking amazing ugh I need to go to San Fran again soon.

Corvette.5687:

I have to agree that staking is not fun. I only do low level dungeon for gold like killing a risen and get heavy moldy bag to sell. If u want challenge and good gameplay, plz do Arah HoTW CoE or fractal of the mist.

PS. I have to say that I am waiting for some new fractals.

COE= stack and learn to dodge.
HOTW = yay HP sponge.. this is… fun?
Fractals = where the hell is the enemy all I see is fire and other effects…

Arah… yup it’s awesome

Lindbur.2537:

“Invincible”

Rainbow with sparkles… yup sums up the new era of vampires perfectly…

So… DA:O… been a while since I found it worthwhile to read the story text…

Correct me if I’m wrong dlonie, but this isn’t really about what we as players want, this is about what we can expect from ANet. There are dozens of threads asking for dozens of different things. There are communities that exist in every area of game play. But, what is being asked here is what is ANets plan for the future? What kind of content should we actually expect? Is it going to be more open world stuff that melds in with the living story? Are we going to see more than a few little updates and bug fixes to the other areas of the game?

I’d just like to see this train get back on the tracks. ANet, what do you have coming for us?

skyhawk.5149:

Last time checked it wasn’t November 18th in America….
gg OP don’t think your country is the only one on Earth.
And if you insist on leaving can I have your stuff?

…

Seeing that phrase used in a way that isn’t targeting someone in America… that’s not something you see every day.

I’d be curious if anyone has a list of all the coefficients and maybe times on some of the attacks. I noticed toolkit’s crowbar hits decently hard and an extra condition. And the toolbelt skill doesn’t look bad.

Personally in that situation I’ve been going bomb kit for the extra fire field. I’m with you that sometimes elixer gun is simply more trouble than it’s worth. When I screw it up consistently on one fight I usually drop it for the rest of the dungeon, but I can usually pull it off just fine.

I’m honestly finding elixers are often worth taking to help support a team… but that’s with imperfect groups.

Iris Ng.9845:

Wethospu.6437:

I think reddit is a good way to train your patience.

Worst part is I still don’t have a clue what they are trying to say, except that I’m an idiot of course.

The level of kitten there is insane. Or the other way around, the level of insanity there is kitten.

Some how, it reminds me of a student coming to see me earlier. “I understand that my calculation is wrong but the previous grader did not correct it TWICE. So I’m technically NOT WRONG!”. Logic fails…

“Ohh yeah? what tests were those? I think i need to adjust your grades a bit”

Afya.5842:

spoj.9672:

Alilinke.7690:

Pretty sure the video is agreeing with what most of us are saying in this thread… o.O

Yes and no. His desire to want a tank role to be viable, support to be improved via stats and his suggestions to achieve that are something we dont agree with. He is right about tanks being currently useless though.

I mean the suggestion to give tanky players more endurance regen and make the default really low really annoys me. I thought he had more intelligence when it came to suggestions like that.

Skills effect untied from traits is a problem. They are currently only affected by trait. Berzerker geared guardian can have the same 12s duration of WoR as a full healing power/boon duration “support” guard, but enjoy so much more dps from gear. Some may argue choosing certain “support” trait would have a lower dps than full 66xxx. How much less though? idk, 10%? I don’t think it should have 90% of maximum dps but also retain 100% of support.

I’m not sure if it’s a good example. Just like WP’s. But imo, it certainly isn’t balanced. You are also right that with the trait system we have, one gear stat is probably better and all the changes are better done in trait alone. (Just like GW1). Now I don’t think it is possible to address this 2 years into the game so better be realistic and just change the pve encounters.

First, exactly on the 2 years into the game thing, this discussion is reasonable in an alpha or beta situation… not 2 years after release. Massive changes like that will really hurt a game.

As for the topic as whole, I really feel people need to shake off this idea that this is a standard MMO, it’s not, there is no trinity, there is no healer there is no tank. It’s silly anytime anyone talks about one of those things as being roles. You can help heal, and you can be tanky, but there is no healer or tank role.

The roles in GW2 are Control, Support, and Damage. Those very much do exist.

And with that, where do you define your role? It’s not in gear selection.

Gear selection is a scale of offense and defense, that’s it, with a little bit of choice in what areas of offense/defense you specialize in (crit/power/condi? and Toughness/Health/Healing?)

Where you get your role is mainly Weapon choice and Traits, with Sigils and Runes having an effect as well.

A thief will bring his pistol for a control role so we can strip defiance. Ele’s bring Ice bow for Deep Freeze. And there are alternatives for both of those, they are just the ones you see in optimized runs much of the time.

Support, might stacking Ele, Phalanx, Guard 45005 build, Mesmers with supportive Mantras, Elixers on Engi… I could go on. Condi removal, blinds, reflects, aegis, protection, blah blah, we all know what we can do for our groups as far as support goes. Support is NOT healing though, a little healing can be support, but it’s like a Square is a rectangle but a rectangle is not a square, healing is only part of support.

Damage of course we all know.

As far as I’m concerned far too many people are still caught up with the standard MMO model and can’t shake it when discussing GW2. It’s a different game. Is zerk/assassin optimal? Hell yeah, when isn’t offense more optimal than Defense assuming you can still survive just fine? (btw that goes for every game i’ve ever played)

As far as this WoodenPotatoes guy, nothing against him but the recent videos of his I’ve watched I think he falls into that category of trying to discuss GW2 with a mind for standard MMOs not for GW2. I do agree and even suggested the same in the raid thread as far as an encounter where you simply need to outlast things not damage so zerker gear is pointless and defensive gear would handle that area while the damage types handle another part of the overall event. As for the out of combat healing and attrition. Drop one of those seed things he showed, thief blasts with shortbow and group whatever else they have, boom everyone is full health, no need to build for healing, it’d simply add a minor annoyance.

Casmurro.9046:

I saw that wildstar failed but i still dont understand why that happened. I think maybe its because players nowadays want hardcore content but they were too lazy to keep farming atunements, so they want the hardcore aspect from the old WoW days but they dont like the hardcore grind.

Personally I stopped being interested after reading some of the commentary on classes and playing a bit of their beta. It was a bland flavorless game play. I mean, there were cool aspects, but in the end it was a slightly more advanced GW2 combat but without the fun things like Reflects and what not. Situationally Overpowered abilities add flavor to a game, it makes knowing when and where to use something important. Otherwise it’s simply a test of read and react with a dozen different scenarios.

Basically in it’s hopes to create perfect balance they cut out the fun… and what’s the point then?

to add though, agian I only played a bit of the beta, so maybe there was more there that I just never saw but that was my take on the game.