Guild Wars 2

timidobserver.7925:

1. Whose idea was it to make turrets viable by making everything else not viable?

Just as a heads up, not matter how much you nerf everything else, people won’t use your beloved turrets lol.

Particularly worrying comment in state of the game about the heal turrets being good because they don’t get focused in WvW and dungeons. Shows a total disconnect between the devs and reality. Average turret life expectancy it’s what, under a second? Any turret surviving longer is so far from where the battle is, that turret is pointless.

Like the mortar ideas in particular.

danbuter.2314:

I love your post. Sadly, no one at anet will ever see it. I’m pretty sure they have all hidden the Engineer subforum on their computers so that it doesn’t even show up.

Maybe someone from A-net browses from a mobile device they haven’t setup engy blocks on yet

Based on the track record from beta 1 on, the engineer nerfs will be brutal, the buffs will be minor or irrelevant, bugs will be mostly ignored. Stronger more versatile build on apex classes will be untouched or buffed.

Engineers are concerned because 90% of patches prove that concern is justified. If we find just one weird thing that works it will be taken away next patch in a way that seems very different to more popular classes, where things are only taken away after there are viable things to replace that builds role.

Engineers fear patch day with VERY good reasons. (Apart from the few engineers who want the class to be bad to fuel their underdog egos)

I wish there were actually some searching questions asked, not just suck up questions. Journalism, not Puff-piece.

Some ideas: (with a mostly engineer bias, I’d expect other classes to make their own list of hot issues)

1. Why no test server? It’s proved a good idea on every other MMO for the last 17years.
2. You refer to s/t-PvP as being THE PVP like WVW doesn’t exist, most balance decisions seem to have extremely poor WvW viability. Yet WvW is a far more successful game mode, and is far more likely to generate gems because WvW is (unfortunately) grind based, isn’t it time to add a WvW class balance team and separate skill balances?
3. Elementalist downed skills as released were really subpar but were fixed in a few weeks, why are engineer downed skills still extremely subpar after 6months?
4. Engineer released with a 20 page bug and QoL list, after 6 months they have a 19 page list, will this ever become a priority?
5. Turrets survive less than a second in WvW, or are out of battle range and therefore useless, will you consider making turrets aoe immune?
6. Minions including turrets are painfully dumb, any upgrades coming to their artificial intelligence to actually include any intelligence e.g. stopping them futilely shooting at some pet that left the area several minutes ago?
7. The kit refinement changes were hated by the engineer community because it made all multi-kit builds worthless not just 100nades, will the kit refinement mistake be learnt from and replaced?
8. Engineer is supposed to have options to control the distance of battle as the only ‘mid range’ class, yet it is trying to do it with basically just swiftness which is mostly worthless in battle (jump shot is slower than running etc). Will we see working gap opener/closers on aspects of the engineer that are actually workable?
9. If HGH/might stack builds are going away, why is nothing coming in to replace it for engineer?
10. If HGH/might stack builds are going away, and 100nades was entirely deleted from the game, why are so many of the other (many stronger) Apex builds from other classes that have been around for far longer being left untouched?
11. Engineer has vastly less builds now than months ago, yet none of the “diversifying engineer builds” measures are anything but thinly veiled nerfs doing nothing worthwhile to open any new builds? What will happen to open some new builds up?
12. Flamethrower, Elixir Gun, just how bad do they have to get before something useful and non-fluff happens?
13. Gadgets… seriously where to start…

The comment about nothing going to be focusing the heal turret in WvW was pretty depressing. If you put a heal turret anywhere it can actually heal anyone who isn’t backed out of a fight, the turret melts in under a second. It’s shocking that the devs appear to genuinely have no clue about how turrets actually perform in WvW when the only buffs to offset the many nerfs are for turrets these days.

I think a few people might overlook that Engineer having no weapon swap, our abysmally tiny weapon selection (p/p, p/sh, rifle that is it), and also no ability to choose different / better sigils and stat setup on our other weapon swap are all very strong counters to the few upsides like swapping for battle procs.

Engineer can’t hchoose appropriate sigils for the toolkit versus the rifle, we don’t have that capability.

Killer Rhino.6794:

http://www.twitch.tv/guildwars2guru/b/396007412

00:42:10

Thanks!

Toning down some top abilities for engineers would be ok, if the useless abilities were brought up into the interesting range, but that’s incredibly rare (toolkit 3 & HGH basically), while the nerfs are so over the top like total deletion, and they happen every patch.

Is that SotG up to replay anywhere yet, and what time was the engineer discussion?

Same problem, what are the chances of a heal turret lasting the eternity of overcharge delay to actually activate a waterfield in WvW, against PvE bosses, even in much of S/T-PvP?

I hope they finally begin to look at Turrets with a sensible overview, and start making some realistic changes that identify the problems, not pointless random crap like thumper turret can now cripple.

I just wanted to put that out there, on the off chance that a dev might accidentally read a topic title in this forum and be reminded of non- S/T pvp balance.

All those turret buffs are completely pointless until a turret is actually able to survive more than a fraction of a second in much of WvW use. It’s just wasting dev time until turrets get either aoe immunity, some seconds of invincible, colossally massive hit-point/toughness changes (which is a bad solution for PvE).

It’s also worth mentioning the massive delay on overcharges activating has to be shot like a rabid dog, CD’s changed overall and Turret with Artificial Stupidity replaced by Turret with Artificial Intelligence (true of many pets/ minions), plus some toolbelt skills need a rework, ranges and rates of fire need to be improved, and turrets need to take all stats from the player, not just condition etc.

Seriously at this point, delete the trait and put up a “under construction” sign in it’s place.

Penguin.5197:

Halcyon.7352:

Penguin.5197:

Rezzet.3614:

jportell.2197:

You guys got it good with speed right now… speedy kits is a guaranteed 100% uptime on swiftness which is 33% movement speed. Better than other classes 25% movement speed increase

you’re forgetting those classes not only have 25% on traits but also usually have another 25% on signets wich makes them have 100% uptime 33% without swiftness and all the while giving them extra speed during combat wich you ll lose once in combat . enter combat and use slick shoes’s tool belt skill and you ll see how fast they really run 100% of the time during combat and then laugh at your swiftness.

Not to mention all those gap closers/openers that engies severely lack. Its very tough to chase someone down even at full swiftness when they are using those skills to move away quicker.

This is what really gets me.

Haha I know right. Figured our cc would be enough to balance it out.

“No worries they won’t escape from me I got net shot!” * Net flies slower than a crippled engie* Ehh they got away.

“No worries they won’t escape from me I got glue shot!” * glue flies slower than net shot* Ehh they got away.

Nicely said, and many WvW engies been saying this for months. Swiftness is pretty much a given in WvW it’s gap openers & closers that matter. Worth repeating of course, as a dev might accidentally click on this forum

Engineers have been handled so badly for so long that very few people are used to playing against them. Now engineer finally has 1 build that isn’t a complete 1 trick pony or seriously sub-par.

Engineer needs another couple of builds at least brought up to viability and their largely untouched 20page buglist from release finally given some attention. (I’m not claiming other classes don’t need attention too, the balance team is clearly severely understaffed and massively over worked – GW2 is one of the more glaring examples of ‘economising’ on balance devs having a sweeping impact across the entire MMO)

Once the engineer population has come back from the edge of extinction, and people have got some playtime against them e.g. actually realise that the icon doesn’t mean elementalist etc, then maybe it would be time to review the Meta. With the clear proviso that engineers should be allowed to have one or more builds that aren’t garbage.

A-net just don’t have enough guys on the balance team to learn 8 classes, engineer is one of the ones they just don’t have time to play / test / understand. We’re not going to get good decisions for this class until they either get more man-power, or migrate away from the classes they do have time for, which would hurt many more players on some other classes than the limited engineer number of players.

Zenguy.6421:

Well that doesn’t bode well.

I originally posted this in the general Guild Wars 2 Discussion thread, but it was moved here with the following explanation.

A moderator moved a message you posted to the forum ‘Engineer’ with the reason:

Thread titled [Finishing unfinished classes] has been moved to Engineer subforum

I guess they think this was just an Engineer issue and not a problem with their development process. Only hope they are right, because it would be really dumb to repeat the same mistakes with the next class they work on.

Because this post is a bit embarrassing, it was moved to a place where no one would read it

Simple and effective suggestion from the OP.

I’ve given bombkit with KR a good test, but bombkit by itself without other kits is just so limited for funtionality in WvW. Ironically the KR refinement does what glue bomb should have been doing from the start, but it’s just not useable with the 20second GCD.

It does a little of everything but at a subpar to mediocre level.

1. Last 2’s patches killed all multikit builds for me.
2. FT and also EG based builds were quite weak even before their huge nerfs.
3. Bombs and gadgets have always been too limited for WVW, and again nerfs.
4. SD is quite limited by the skills that work with all the SD bugs, other classes bursts harder, and with much more to offer on the side.
5. 100nades wasn’t toned down, it was completely deleted from the game, so clearly engineer isintended to never be allowed to burst on a level with other classes.
6. Only 10% of what’s needed for wvw happened to turrets.

Elixirs are still rubbish for way more hassle and keypresses (lagged too) than shouts, but are the best of what’s on offer, also the only way to really deal with conditions now.

Extremely low variety when you want to experiment, so few weapons, no swap etc. Devs only appear to know what they don’t want engineer to be so take things away, but have no clues what they actually want engineer to be able to do, so never add new possibilities at a level that makes them more than gimmicks to test.

2 more patches come and gone with zero attention to engineer downed skills. We don’t appear able to get heard by the devs on this issue.

Thanks for engaging with your customers Tyler – I really hope this wasn’t just a publicity action and you and/or others come back for more.

I think most engineers feel a major case of not being listened to at all:

1. We want less RNG, not some extra new & awful KR butchery RNG added.
2. We want our weak multi-kit swap builds to be supported not euthanised. The only reason multi-kits relied so heavily on KRefinement is because the rest of the traits do such a terrible job of supporting multi-kit playstyle.
3. Turrets need masses of work, especially in WvW where they evaporate in 0.1 seconds.
4. We’d like some versatility please, many of our kits are too weak compared to weapons, and we have only pistol, shield and rifle and no weapon swap. This is extremely few options.
5. The only reliable conditions removal now being in elixirs is another casualty of the KR mess.
6. The length of the Engineer bug list, it’s a bit embarrassing at this stage tbh.
   I’ll stop the list there before it gets too long.

Finally as a general point your class balance team appears to be over-worked, understaffed and getting blinkered or just plain inaccurate feedback. More staff are needed, someone needs to seriously consider adding a dedicated dev for each class (8 total) ontop of the current team. If your classes are evolving well then every single piece of gameplay gets a massive boost, and especially any weaker performing game modes will pick up numbers, and the reverse is true also.

My opinion is either HGH P/P or HGH nades for WvW. I don’t actually like either, but anything else you would serve your server better being on a different class. Also you’ll need an alternative for skill lag when HGH becomes impossible e.g. 3 way fights where you cannot activate a heal let alone stack utils & double lagged toolbelt.

Some posters will rose tint sugar cost it for you, but that’s my personal breakdown.

Kemistry/Kinetic Invention Teknology [KIT]

nakoda.4213:

Will the bronze need tying to sticks?

Yes!

Cracking.

Yeah brilliant! Sometimes post-patch can be a bit like:

“Did HGH survive this round?”

“Yes!”

“Oh in that case, everything is fine, learn to play, everything is still fine”

As title is just the Tooltip broken or is deployable turrets actually using the turrets from the wrong patch?

nakoda.4213:

Phineas Poe.3018:

But when you say Engineer is fine, what you really mean is Engineer is overpowered.

well, it’s a bit more like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ejCqVyROqno

edit: LOL at the “Sun” and “Mirror” headlines.

edit 2: since i’m on point with the videos, here is a take on the new KR…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-EGAtLGDU7M

Funny videos

T1 mostly fighting in EB. The skill lag is so bad, I have to give up on HGH builds sometimes. No point trying to manage elixirs when utilities are impossible to activate and toolbelt skills are double impossible.

Ironically the lag does actually encourage a bit more variety when HGH is impossible.

I’ve played engineer since BWE1. I mostly play wvw. Both having fun & variety, and being useful to your side are important to me. Things are even more limited than ever it seems.

FT has never recovered from the juggernaut and backdraft nerfs, food changes were the nail in the coffin.
Bomb kit has never recovered from smoke bomb nerf. WvW is to mobile for bombs, grenade kit just does everything better, and you don’t need as many survival traits and equip to use nades.
Elixir gun was mainly good for super elixir, and the kit refinement idiocy combined with huge super elixir nerf killed that.
Turrets will always be bad in WvW until they get either aoe immunity or short term invuln or cast and recast timers making them disposable (trait spread all over and stun & cure issues plague turet builds also).

Only 4 weapon combinations it’s a big issue, you need variety to keep the fun, so more of our kits, turrets and gadgets need attention they just aren’t getting.

Engineer forum seems so quiet now. Have a lot of people gone to their alts? I’ll admit it’s hard to feel motivated to stay with engineer when dev patches remove capabilities without being prepared to give sensible/workable buffs to open new replacements. Can’t see a good future for a class when they only know they want engineer to not be able to do lots of things and have no clue what it should be able to do.

Other forums have threads like which of 9 types of mesmer are you? We have are you SD or HGH? I’ve never liked either tbh, other classes get much more on the side with their burst than SD, and HGH has always been a clumsy and inflexible narrowing of your utilities.

I miss multikit builds and am sad that 100 nades was taken from those that used that without anything viable being given in return (turret buffs were a total joke just as everyone expected).

Elixir gun and lame thrower need big buff, especially when engineer has like 5% a many weapon choices as some classes.

T1 wvw especially 3 way SM fights has so much skill lag that when you want turret most, you can no longer reliably time anything about it. Also, toolbelt skills seem to be harder to activate than utility, and weapon skills much easier again than utility during skill lag.

So fighting the lag is sometimes a consideration for choice.

Ghostbusters:
Dr Ray Stantz: Everything was fine with our system until the kit refinement was shut off by kittenless here.
Walter Peck: But engineers were causing explosions!
Mayor: Is this true?
Dr. Peter Venkman: Yes it’s true.
[pause]
Dr. Peter Venkman: This man has no kitten.

Probably the only reason we’re not voted as bottom profession anymore is because of photoshopped 100nades pictures :P

Don’t get me wrong I didn’t like 100nades and didn’t use it myself bar testing it out, but I hated how predictable was the rabid nerfhammer applied to 100nades that also ruined a huge collection of other fun, legitimate slightly under-par but interesting builds.

Toolbox.9375:

Ayestes.1273:

Maybe there is an alternative path of relying information to the devs

Kidnap one and lecture them on Engineer bugs until they’re able to list every single one from memory?

At least then you could be absolutely sure that they are aware of the bugs and just ignoring us out of sheer malevolence.

At this point. Gets my vote.

OP if you’re a turret guy I’d explain the KR change in the following way:

Imagine two patches of idiocy took every trait that helped your preferred playstyle, i.e. all turret traits, and changed them so that all those traits now granted a swiftness buff to 1 of your immobile turrets.

Multi-kit builds needed help not destroying. Multikitting should be a viable way to make up for no weapon swap and get close to the better designed no-weapon swap class the elementalists 15 extra skills, (and vastly great weapon choice combos) and no loss of utility slots.

Also it removed all ‘reliable’ condition removal to heavy/only elixir builds.

Finally it proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that the balance team are just flailing around and coming up with any old kitten and throwing it out the door when it comes to engineer. To describe the engineer class as versatile and then outright destroy the ONLY truly versatile trait engineer used to have is so mind-bendingly obtuse that it’s hard to believe it actually happened, even for people who predicted it would.

I want Turret-play to become far more functional, and better developed, especially in WvW, one of it’s weakest areas, for example. You should want the same growth for multi-kitting too, it all benefits engineers overcoming their rushed last to be thrown out the door design and turning into a properly rounded class with a consistent vision, multiple lines of builds and good synergy.

zaxon.6819:

im just here to third the UO was great comment.

havent seen more complex pvp then 2 7x anatomy mages fighitng. until Tom Chilton “kalgan” ruined it with age of shadows(then moved on to ruin wow pvp).

tom chilton is still ruining wow today pvp nerf bat gets swung daily. the guy single handedly ruined ultima online. he was the 1 person responsable. then he got hired by wow to do the same thing for all these years.

heres my point .. dont think because someoen has done something for a long time or because someone throws a bunch of money at them that they are good at thier job.

im not saying that it makes them bad either. ..

Loved anat mage even before hally change made them more popular, although I did sometimes mace, g.heal q ’staff etc. Age of shadow grindfest was such a travesty, far worse than the more talked about trammel.

Some of the dA-net ev decisions clearly demonstrate, indisputably, that they don’t understand or play this particular class except very casually.

I bet every single person arguing in this thread would have caught that deployable turrets needs to use the turrets from the correct patch, that the big smokebomb nerf needed to include a good change to the GM trait that triggers smokebomb, that removing stability from FT meant adding access elsewhere, that changing 100 nades doesn’t mean removing kit refinement and replacing it with drooling kit idiocy, that food changes would impact FT aspects, the list goes on and on.

The devs don’t have a big enough class team. They need minimum 1 dedicated class specialist for each class on top of some generalists.

Devs aren’t sacred cows, or infallible super humans, and the class team is clearly over-worked and under staffed.

Some players can have an extremely good grasp of the micro cosm and the macro meta in a mmo (especially those who have ben pvp-ing since the inception of the genre with UO

Daxxter.8920:

I think it just gets to me because I come here with a smile and telling my self each day will bring a ton of new info from players on how to improve playing this wonderful class and all I get instead is you went to level 80 and spent all your time and gold for nothing, go roll a warrior and press 2 on GS from lvl 1 to 80.

It’s hard to understand why the devs choices regarding engineer are so consistently awful, and their patches are so consistently inept, e.g. kit refinement & the bugs & hidden cooldowns, turret changes & failure to think of turret deployment, smoke bomb changes and failure to think of smoke bomb GM skill, flamethrower changes fail & failure to consider food changes.

Engineer changes will continue to lack vision, focus and relevance until we get a class dev who makes a genuine commitment to learning wtf an engineer is and does.

Some other classes forums you’ll see whining on because:
a) they have a LOT more players, and a certain % of players will whine no matter what
b) some of the classes are pretty shocked by experiencing a nerf, it’s a rare and painful sensation for them, engineers being nerfed is just business as usual

Compare Lamethrower to warrior longbow. It’s sad that our kits are better than our weapons.

“Lack of all trades, mediocre at one” – appears to better fit A-net’s ‘engineer vision’ in practice.

It’s a clear indication the devs want us to tax engineer on all fronts, no access to weapon swap, and not have multi-kitting as any sort of offset, the loss of crucial utility slots, the weaker nature of most kits, and weaker by design weapons with extremely poor selection and the clunky nature of our F mechanic which basically requires 2 skill casts to do what other get with one cast time.

Claiming a class is OP, when most of the playerbase clearly realises it needs attention, is sometimes just that analytical skills and playskills don’t always go together, also sometimes it’s a self-stroking ego play from those who feel a need to posture as elite.

Most of us are so used to only using 10% of the engineer, that if it drops to 8% some’ll still say hey quit whining, we only lost 2% as opposed to looking at the situation and saying that’s 20% of what was commonly useable, now gone.

Engineer has always had some builds that can do ok, in a mediocre sense, nothing exceptional by themselves but just ok. Often underpowered classes attact a few highly skilled players who like the challenge, unfortunately that can often be mis-analysed as the class is okay overall, when it isn’t it jsut has a few exceptional players looking for a challenge.

Turrets being garbage.
RNG effects.
Multi-kitting being discouraged by trait layout and nerfs.
Lack of unique identity, where’s time warp or null field or moa or stealth or attunements or clones etc etc.
Condition removal being pushed to basically elixirs or prayer.
Reliable stability being removed from the class.
The opportunity cost of engineer, lower damage, less finishers, no weapon swap (no chance to swap stats/sigils) the low weapon choice, utils taken by kits, kits missing finishers like a more normal weapon.
Engineer utils largely consisting of two weaker skills needing two keypresses not one (in WvW skill-lag!) to often still be weaker to other classes 1 keypress (seriously compare elixirs to shouts for example).
The massive buglist and clunkiness of traits.

Yes engineer has some bits that work alright, e.g. HGH builds are left basically, but it has an awful lot that needs attention and that work needed shouldn’t be drowned out by a few shouty voices who want to promote themselves as so awesome that anything they play can never need buffs.

Hrmm Phineas, there is no difference between any class swapping it’s skills or weapons once they leave combat, and an engineer swapping it’s kits=once the engineer leaves combat.

You could go so far as to say many classes weapons are less dependent on specific traiting setups to be useful than engineer, e.g. grenades. Making others more versatile with swapping their setup without visiting a re-trait NPC.

Also everyone gets 2-4 skills, some of them are really good too.

Dev post, from december:

“Engineer
The Engineer is a highly versatile class. While it doesn’t have the long range capabilities of the Ranger, or the melee capabilities of the Warrior or Guardian, they are comfortable at medium ranges in most fights. They have a lot of control, and use their boons to keep themselves (and allies) alive in a fight. They can use different kits based on the situation, but this extreme versatility comes at a cost in damage on their main hand weapons.”

Ariantes.9068:

Kalan.9705:

6months of being patient and considered has got engineer far less dev effort than other far more polished classes. I’d love to be proved wrong with the coming patch, nevertheless A-net have to overcome their own track record from the previous patches.

Engineer is not the only class to suffer from this effect tho. Necros have the same problem, stuff like their class mechanic and minions not working properly since beta, same is true for quite some traits.

I entirely agree, the dev effort into classes has been very, mixed and appears to favour classes they play. It’s no only an engineer problem. This means
a) the devs don’t have enough devs to play all the classes properly on the balance team
b) they are getting very bad information about the classes they don’t play and hence making very bad decisions. (no-one who actually played an engineer could have okayed the kit refinement mess from last patch for e.g., no-one who played engineer would take the stability from juggernaut, without replacing it with access to stability somewhere else and on and on)
c) they need both a test server, and a 1 dedicated dev per class minimum, ontop of the class balance generalists, as a proper workflow for the balance team.

6months of being patient and considered has got engineer far less dev effort than other far more polished classes. I’d love to be proved wrong with the coming patch, nevertheless A-net have to overcome their own track record from the previous patches.

Elementalist released with rubbish downed skills and had them buffed within a short time, for just one example. Why are engineer downed skills still total rubbish?

The problem seems to stem from a lack of vision and focus on the devs part. The devs only seem to have ideas of what they don’t want the engineer to be:

1. Oh no! Engineers have some class identity with their bunkers, that’s for other classes, so nerf smoke skills!
2. Oh no! Engineers have some class identity with applying conditions effectively, that’s for other classes, so nerf explosive shot!
3. Oh no! Engineers have some class identity with removing conditions, that’s for other classes, so nerf medpack4 also FT/EG combo!
4. Oh no! Engineers have some class identity with stomping people, that’s for other classes, so nerf Juggernaut!
5. Oh no! Engineers have some class identity with underwater grenade combat, it must be nerfed to no-identity mediocre at best!
6. Oh no! Some engineers specced to support heal with Super Elixir, quick nerf SE massively and then adjust it up a completely neglible amount afterwards.
7. Oh no! A few Engineers are using their class mechanic to swap kits, that’s too much class identity, quick butcher kit refinement!
8. Because no-one (not even engineers) wants to engage in some kind of rehearsed synchronised routine of ‘mid-ranged’ combat, devs can pretend we are good at something that doesn’t exist. While fixing & adding none of the tools needed for actual battlefield mobility – hello JUMP—, hang, wait, eat a sandwich, read the paper, then land, —SHOT etc

What message are we getting from the devs about what they think the engineer should do, as opposed to what it cannot do?

1. We can have some slight buffs to turrets, provided they are useless overall and their traits are stupid.
2. We can have grenades sort of, with numerous nerfs, provided they are only dangerous at close range, or to people who are afk or stupid / NPC’s at longer ranges.
3. Because our mainhand weapons are deliberately weaker by design, we can have kits like flamethrower, but because they’re a kit they not allowed to have any finishers or any range like the equivalent but superior mixed power/condi weapons like warrior longbow. Also anyone who’s ever actually played the engineer knows how suicidal their auto-attack is from retaliation. So we have a kit with traits that direct you to not swap out, but you can’t stay in kit to use the auto-attack. Genius.

Engineer that people bought into at BWE1 had tons of bugs and tons of unfinished areas, but also far more class identity and far more potential. Now we have this middle of the road mediocre mess, with very nearly just as many bugs and now masses of class defining areas watered down to average or worse. The buglist from BWE1 is still basically the same it simply hasn’t gotten a fraction of the attention it’s needed.

tl;dr It’s okay to take things away, even class defining things, as long as you give new important things to replace them to ensure a class retains an identity. This hasn’t happened so far. Also leaving the class with the most bugs, to be last for bugfixes, won’t make that class community happy

Toolkit has improved quite a bit though, so I guess that’s the devs vision, engineers use toolkit.

The sensible option might be to triple FT damage per hit, and have it hit 3 times over 2 seconds or something along those lines.

MrSilver.5269:

You failed to mention the AoE nerf that may destroy a large portion of our damage.

True. It’s also a concern that a general aoe nerf across all classes won’t get specific engineer counter balance changes either. We don’t know much about what shape this aoe nerf might take though.