Guild Wars 2

You wouldn’t play D/x because you can’t heart seeker to your target without consequence?

Guess we have our answer as to why you’re fighting me on this.

sorrow.2364:

Remove boons. Ele damage is all reliant to its might stacks and fury. Remove those boons and you’ll feel only itch.

Use Sword/Dagger or either pick bountiful theft.

lol, flanking strike will send you a mile away without steal precast. fix this kitten skill already, anet!!

I haven’t seen anyone with that build because it isn’t necessary, they have no need to do it. If they did have to, I promise you they would be much more popular.

As for guardian, the mere notion that they haveore mobility than thief makes me laugh, heart seeker or no.

Again, if you want to chase someone that is going to be cris-crossing back and forth, chase with sword, use those utilities, and switch to dagger when you get close.

You also forget elites, can use basilisk venom for stun, thieves guild for pull.

Tell me what every other class would do to succeed in catching them in that exact same situation then, and I’ll concede to you. Promise.

And it is cowardly. I’ve never seen a warrior fight like that, rofl.

And you still have amazing mobility, and stealth is apparently god mode to anyone on these forums.

Your argument is weak, and I don’t know a single person here that would buy it. I applaud you for trying, however.

Maugetarr.6823:

How come the discussion has shifted into making heartseeker the ranger sword autoattack? Not to mention if they bumped up the cost our cost distribution across all the abilities (for D/D) would be 0/4/5/4/6, whereas S/D already has only 0/3(2)/4/4/6 and is more unified. If heartseeker broke CC, cured chill/cripple/immobilize, then upping the cost might be justified, but as it is, it’s such an easy counter to the ability, why nerf it?

Because it is a leap finisher, auto directs, goes 450 range, and can hit for ridiculous damage. Sword can go 600 range in pursuit, and hit like a wet noodle, before they are forced to switch weaponset’s to catch a fleeing target. No other weaponset can front load damage AND backload damage like D/x, which is just absurd.

It would force people to spend it more wisely, especially smoke leap combo users which are the new fotm and getting ever so slightly out of hand.

As for switching the conversation, this thread is about fixing the class, the is no linear topic that I’m deviating from, unless I’m missing something… I’m not suggesting game breaking mechanics here. I’d even be willing to go back to the previous damage ratios should these changes be in effect.

Rayya.2591:

ok since you are smart , let’s make real calculation
warrior :
whirlwind 450 , rush 1200
you use infiltration signet 1200 and 2 heartseekers ( 8 initiative)
warrior use kick , and bullchrge in another direction
you recover with shadowstep and use steal
warrior does whirlwind wich is already reused
you do 2 heartseeker and you are toe to toe with 0 initiative vs an warrior (with no utility available )
1.Good fight , eat the burst you desirve it.
2. fight back with 0 initiative
3. try to run ( ops you burned up all your utility skills)
4. He ignore you and do savage leap . OPS

So in this hypothetical situation where you are fighting an extraordinarily cowardly warrior which is just absolutely a work of fiction, first of all, you may have blown a lot of CDs, but so did he. You can certainly stealth, via heal or utility. This is where you should be getting your dps from anyway, HS is just a means to an end.

You make it seem like you are owed the ability to catch him with one weapon set when he used two. Have a sword in your second slot, bam, 600 range and immobilize. If he backtracks, shadow return.

This is pathetic thief mentality, assuming that everything should be accomplished in one weapon set. Furthermore, and most importantly, ask yourself… In that scenario, what would anyone else do?? Why should you, as a thief, have exclusive rights to catch someone with that mobility and have plenty of means to put up a fight when over half the classes in the game would have have to give up pursuit after the first Rush?

Christ…

Rayya.2591:

if you got heartseeker range reduced to 300 , and init increased to 4 you will be able to jump 900 range with weapon skill
warrior can jump 1200 +450 with greatsword + 600 with sword
elem can already kite an thief when ever they feel like

Infiltrator signet= 900, Shadow Step= 1200, Steal= 900 (1200 traited)

Again, you feel entitled to a massive gap closer because utility is utility and steal should only be used for damage.

You can chase down ANYONE with those skills, and 300 afterwards is plenty enough.

Stop acting like spoiled brats. Ele’s RTL got nerfed, rush is on 20 second CD. Hey, you have other weapon sets too, why not switch? Oh, because you won’t hurt them enough when you catch them.

The choice should be yours. These utilities aren’t optimal for your build? Don’t take them, but struggle to catch the two classes with better mobility than you. If you want to be on top, learn to make sacrifices.

The damage is fine really, the leap distance and initiative cost are the problem.

Thief has gap closing utilities, like shadow step and infiltrator signet, as well as steal which is part of our class mechanic.

People treat steal like it has to be front loaded with our damage, so they are entitled to a free weapon based gap closer. This mindset must be dealt with, because people are forgetting its usefulness outside that narrow paradigm.

S/x has an amazing gap closer, but it does no damage to speak of and is just a utility, with a “chase cooldown” of 15secs unless you fancy flying backwards.

You can’t have your cake and eat it too. Do you want gap closing to damage? No other spec has an execute of this caliber.

Seems like your stuck on your rationalizations, so I won’t bother. It’s thinking like this that will never get us anywhere.

Aberrant.6749:

HS is fine and balanced. It’s been nerfed enough in the past and is where it should be ini/damage wise. On top of that, there are PLENTY of counters to some one HS spamming. Cripple/chill/blowout/teleports/stealth/protection/immobilize/evade can all be used to stop a HS spammer. Pretty much the only thing a player can’t do is sit there like grazing cattle.

It is not balanced. It does way too much, and costs way too little. And it’s not all regarding spammers. Getting nailed with 1000’s of damage in a mug>cnd>bs combo and then having to contend with someone’s massive leap that will hit for another couple thousand is cheap.

It incentivizes poor gameplay, and people like you not willing to accept culpability are bringing the crybabies calling for a nerf that will essentially ruin everyone but you.

Heart seeker is a stupid skill. It needs toned down, not in damage but in breadth. Any thief worth his salt doesn’t need a 450 range leap to catch his target.

Fixes that will stop QQ:
Heart seeker original damage ratios restored, range reduced to 300 and cost increased to 4 initiative.

Choking gas has a very small AoE damage component, so it cannot be spammed mid-zerg in stealth.

Caltrops break stealth on deployment.

Sneak attack requires positioning from rear to trigger bleeds, in line with every other stealth attack. (Face it, nothing sneaky about your opponent firing shots right in front of you. Perhaps a cripple on frontal would be more appropriate.)

Revealed on de stealth, no matter what.

Karolis.4261:

I think there are PVT accended trinkets at laurel vendor. And you can mix in some berserker partsto compensate for loss of ruby jewels.

Yeah, I’m almost able to buy my first laurel piece, only 3 or so months to go til I collect them all!!

da Raika no PvE…

Karolis.4261:

There is allmost 0 difference between exotic and accended gear …

The biggest difference I notice is the lack of flexibility you get. I run with Soldier jewelry slotted with Ruby jewels. Can’t get that with Ascended. All things considered, I find it more of a hindrance.

I still have 0 ascended gear, and kill people with quivers on their back regularly.

I just go for the scouts first, their ranged attacks will hit you, so just plink at them from ranged and draw them out one by one (everything else typically resets when they can’t hit you). After they are dead, just take out the melee and then the boss. Thieves guild can help if you’re having problems, but you should be able to do it solo unless you are glassy as all hell…

Ritt.3069:

…the only thing that’s broken is confusion, really. I don’t know what anet was thinking when they made certain traits trigger confusion in addition to skills.

Oh god, this. I’ve been hit for more than my heal can negate with confusion, which would probably tick if my toon let a fleeting fart slip out. Damage 1/2’d in sPvP says a lot…

But I digress, last refuge is garbage, give me something that doesn’t kill me plz tx!

Softspoken.2410:

Dual.8953:

Aberrant.6749:

Or you could just learn to counter that very simple & predictable strategy instead of crying out for more HS nerfs…

Chill, Dagger mainhand has plenty going for it. An adjustment to HS won’t break it.

The funniest part of this is that chill is a pretty good counter to HS, since it reduces the leap distance so severely.

Good thing everyone has a chill slotted? This nerf would severely marginalize the latest D/P trend by forcing them to use their combo field much more situationally over wantonly. It will also completely eradicate the noob thief population, considering this is something only bads spam (straight from the D/x thieve’s mouth).

I don’t understand why D/x won’t just fall on their sword (or should I say dagger) as they are pretty much the ire of the entire community. If it’s such a nooby tactic to spam it from far away, why not put it in stone in the game’s mechanics? This change would not effect anyone who knows how to play, and it would lend a chance to all the people crying that our burst is inescapable.

Hell, revert the damage changes to post nerf status if you want, just increase init to 4 and range to 250 and everyone wins (except for bads).

Add 1 init cost and -100 range to HS, and your problem will pretty much be solved. But really, if you immobilize or even snare those noobs, they are just bleeding init. Just hit them with one of those and dodge away and enjoy the free kill when they peter out.

Acelerion.6820:

tl:dr: heart seeker needs to decide if it wants to be damage or utility, it shouldent have both. Compensate in other areas ect…

I completely agree. S/x gap closer does practically no damage, it is like 90% utility (but it’s utility is second to none). I don’t see how anyone justifies huge range, combo finisher, and ridiculous situational damage. It is especially stupid in the logical progression of being able to do amazing damage with mug>cnd>bs, and just keep on your target until dead with this ability. A choice must be made. Revealed should come up no matter what (no stealth stacking) culling disabled and HS changed… After that, 100% L2P at all the whiners out there.

Dual.8953:

Explain to me why I shouldn’t see this as “invalidate balanced and support builds, all thieves should be bursty glass cannons”

Because these people don’t understand what they are asking for. They are just too busy getting hit by C&D and crying about how it wasn’t fair.

Sebrent.3625:

The annoying aspect of this is the fact that heartseeker spam is that easy to use while, depending on your spec, is non-trivial to avoid. You have to time your dodge rolls, blocks, etc. to mitigate the damage. This takes a larger amount of skill than is required of the thief simply hitting 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2.

Sebrent, are you getting killed by heart seeker spammers? Awww, it all makes sense now.

Really, the damage of heart seeker is paltry above 50%. BUT. I do think there is something wrong with heart seeker. Think it’s initiative cost needs to be upped by one. This will discourage both spamming and the notorious D/P leap combo, calling for a much more reserved use of initiative.

I also think it needs its range reduced, there is no excuse for the distance you can get with it, considering it’s potential for damage.

But really, complaining about spammers is pretty sad. It’s only going to get you an empty initiative bar, and a repair cost in the end.

Fjandi.2516:

A good idea someone suggested a while ago would be making c&d usable only on the back of the target. Also c&d shouldn’t activate on mobs in wvw (this includes ranger pets). Also they should remove thieves guild (“omg i suck so i call 2 npcs to help me”) and make sr an elite skill. It’s way too good to be an utility.

I would be okay with this change. It would make S/D much more viable than typical builds, considering immobilize on IS would be a good lead-in. However, it would have to do more than just damage in the case of a frontal attack. Maybe trigger a small aoe blind instead of stealthing so you don’t completely waste your initiative.

As for thieves guild, I’m not entirely sure how you think it is OP, they do very little damage and I only use them for blind/pull, and very rarely. Anyone would ditch it for SR tho, and honestly I’d prefer it as an elite anyway, so I’m all for it, room for another more practical utility.

One more suggestion that kinda grinds my gears would have to be stealth attacks and positioning… D and S need to be in melee range and from the rear to grant any benefit (worthwhile benefit, anyway.). P on the other hand can be triggered from melee to 900 range, from front back and side to side… Feel that is a little lame, and I think there should be some positional consideration to that spec.

Cogadh.1845:

shrug dont believe me then, no skin off my nose. Just giving my opinion based on playing one

Which you didn’t, at least not adequately, which is why your opinion doesn’t mean a kitten thing.

Cogadh.1845:

Stealth should be skill based not a blanket, press a button and then Im invisible no matter what. If people really want the class to be as skill based as the defenders make it out to be, then make stealth break on damage.

lol, yup, definitely doesn’t play a thief…

Cogadh.1845:

Rework traps and other utilities that would make thieves have more options in larger fights and some utility builds. Then make stealth remove on damage. Currently stealth implementation is poor imo. It needs to be addressed but only if other builds become viable and fun.

And before anyone says it, yes I play a thief.

Anyone who says stealth should drop on damage does not play a thief.

swinsk.6410:

This isn’t culling. A thief that hits CnD just after stealth drops isn’t a problem. I do this a lot even as D/D + S/D. If I get low on health all I do is run around hitting CnD off targets until my health regenerates.

It is culling, because theoretically they should see you (even if just a few frames) before the strike lands. Culling also allows about an extra second of leeway to connect that C&D before they become visible to their opponent, so even if you aren’t Johnny on the spot you can still stay stealthed (at least, as far as the other player is concerned.)

I don’t think it’s necessarily a problem, per se, because yes, a thief who times his stuff well will still be very hard to avoid if he does continue C&Ding in a good rhythm. He also poses a significant risk of hitting it a little too early and going into revealed accidentally, which is risk vs. reward.

The problem is that extra second that lazy/bad thieves may be allotted by their enemy due to culling. One second can make a difference to a decent player.

So the fact that they have stated that they are allowing client-side culling toggling in March’s update hasn’t even come up yet, why?

Columba.9730:

Faeyd.5094:

Is this a joke?

The thief takes ALL damage while stealthed.

Not from mobs or non aoe attacks. This is the only game that allows stealthers to be able to stealth during combat. It’s a bad mechanic.

That is an out and out lie, and you know it.

EasymodeX.4062:

Hard to tell. The most I’ve personally witnessed that I can virtually guarantee fit the “they hit something, dropping out of stealth and still not rendering” (because they were attacking me) was ~3 seconds with about 8 people and 4 NPCs in the area.

There are a lot of subtleties that can cause variation however — for example, a thief can CND someone (where you can assume a 3s stealth then ??? culling-based fade-in) and they take 5-7 seconds to appear. However, they could have used Blinding Powder during the CND to extend the stealth, and it would be difficult to detect as they’re moving (e.g. you’re not hit by the blind).

Yes, but we’re discussing someone who is actively attacking, are we not? Anything else, it’s anyone’s guess as to what the thief is doing WHILE in stealth, as there are indeed ways to stack it, as well as C&D tagging + culling can lead to a near permanent stealth. I am aware of all of this.

What I’m hearing is that the thief can be in stealth, attack, and continue attacking while their model has still not rendered for upwards to four seconds. That is flat out impossible. Culling will add, in this scenario, 1.5 max, depending on the surroundings, and again, I invite you to let me tag around with you (I assume you’re on T1) and we can record exactly how long it lasts.

Otherwise, it’s all conjecture.

EasymodeX.4062:

Laika.8795:

Now you’re discussing zerg culling behavior, which is neither here nor there. A single thief, which is Columba’s chief source of baby tears, will never take that kind of time to render unless you’re on a dial up playing on your 10 year old computer. Which he’s confirmed that he is not.

A single thief will average about 1 second of missed visibility, 1.5 tops.

It’s not completely related to “TEH ZERG”. Simply being in an active WvW zone seems to have a pretty direct impact, as opposed to, say, sPvP.

I’ve seen several situations where a thief has taken ~2-4 seconds to re-appear and there were only a few players in clipping. Your personal internet connection and PC specs have little to do with it. It’s an engine issue and a lot of it is server-side decision making.

So you’re telling me you’ve seen thieves attacking, while invisible, for 4 seconds? Then I call hacking, because I’ve never once experienced anything even remotely along those lines.

And I play on JQ, so it’s not my server tier affecting it. If I saw video footage, I’d believe it. I invite anyone with a friendly thief on an opposing server to collaborate and get video of just how long culling lasts. I’ll gladly volunteer, if anyone wants to send me a PM.

Regardless, with news on culling being a client-side option coming next month, it’s a moot point, but I’d like science to be on our side.

Stealth, backstab and listen to people QQ about how every viable build of thief should be nerfed because of it.

Am I missing anything?

EasymodeX.4062:

Sometimes culling delay on targeting can be as low as ~1s, or as high as ~2-3s. Visibility is typically ~2s on the low end to ~5s on the high end.

Now you’re discussing zerg culling behavior, which is neither here nor there. A single thief, which is Columba’s chief source of baby tears, will never take that kind of time to render unless you’re on a dial up playing on your 10 year old computer. Which he’s confirmed that he is not.

A single thief will average about 1 second of missed visibility, 1.5 tops. I’ve never not seen the thief that has attacked me before revealed has dissipated (assuming it’s not a C&D re-tag), and that is the truth. I’ll gladly state that culling exists and is a problem, if people like Columba ditch the sensationalism and hyperbole that they spew in their half-kittened, histrionic posts.

Drawing Guy.3701:

Daecollo.9578:

Of course, you pretty much got rid of the rapid attack healing option, but that is ok because we still have backstab. Now we can all be the same!

True until the fix stealth and/or culling.

Stealth does not need to be fixed. Culling does. Thieves will still be played the exact same way, however. You’ll only see them a second longer…

Panacea.4927:

DanH.5879:

Runcore.5107:

Bad idea. No need to say more.

Won’t let me triple quote, but you get the picture…

Drawing Guy.3701:

The simple fact is, these in of themselves are not “builds”, but setups that exploited an OP food and were reliant on that broken mechanic.

This.

It was readily apparent by anyone that used it, this was not working as intended.

This is not a nerf, it is a bug fix. Same as Shadow Strike shadow stepping backwards without target contact, which people also QQ’ed about.

Royce Melborn.3276:

Sorry guys, this question might awfully noobish but I’m a thief myself and I don’t really know what the big deal about this is? Why would stealth be useless now?

It’s not. It’s what we call “hyperbole” and is used to express the feelings of bad players who can’t live without resetting aggro tables…

frans.8092:

offence.4726:

It pretty much broke CnD on animals atleast in WvW .

You mean they’ll follow you and make an easy target. P/D is going to enjoy this change.

Pretty much. I’m S/D, but last night I was running business as usual. Never really noticed any difference with the mobs, other than they pretty much just sit there and wait for you to come out of stealth.

Not a big to do for me. In fact, 90% of the time, if I use a critter to stealth off of in battle, my opponent will hit it and draw aggro to him, so really it’s a plus for me.

However, if a normal PvE mob causes that much trouble for you, I’d be willing to say you’re not exactly the best player…

killimandros.5087:

Its a shame a nerf intended for wvw hits the pve players :-/

How in the holy hell does a “nerf” that doesn’t reset aggro tables on mobs when you stealth translate, in your mind, to something aimed at WvW?

I don’t mean to be rude, but this does not compute…

LOCO.1785:

You’re right, I’m living in fantasy land.

It’s crazy here, I see D/D eles tearing apart groups including thieves.

This is the best comment made in this entire subthread.

Thank you.

No, it means mobs won’t reset as fast, and any damage you do, they won’t forget when you reappear (mostly pertaining to group fights)

Maugetarr.6823:

To me, if a build wasn’t viable without temporary buffs then it wasn’t really a viable build in the first place.

Was just about to say that…

Koga.7215:

and this leaves us with essentially stealth builds to control argo

Ben Affleck already got robbed at the Academy Awards, now this????

Jericho.4521:

Same. I’m really afraid it means that stealth doesn’t lose enemy aggro at all though now, and we’ll be attacked in stealth. Could be a nail in the coffin for thieves in dungeons.

I assure you, that’s not what it means at all.

I approve. First time I’ve actually been happy reading patch notes, but this stems from the fact that I already use Withdraw.

Shadow Shot, I assume it means it doesn’t root you anymore, so I expect the rise in D/P to be exponential.

You’ve surprised me, ANet. Not amazing, but a step in the right direction.

Daecollo.9578:

Should be a ranger trait then, deals with animals and stuff, that way whenever you OR your pet fart it cures a condition.

No way, Rangers are totally OP already. They can use birds to track thieves in stealth, and continue hitting them throughout stealth for big numbers… If they can do that, and stealth is OP and ANet has to rework the entire class.

Withdraw: This ability now scales 20% better with healing power. Base healing per level has increased by 10%.

Yay! Expect more people rolling backwards!

Has always been my goto heal, just got better.

Daecollo.9578:

Laika.8795:

oZii.2864:

As someone else said can I get a thief everytime I dodge?

Don’t forget condition removal every time I fart.

Thats pretty unreliable condition removal.

I’m a vegetarian, I eat a lot of broccoli.

oZii.2864:

As someone else said can I get a thief everytime I dodge?

Don’t forget condition removal every time I fart.

IMO:

Zerker Weapons (Para Sigil/Ruby Orb) Zerker/Knight armor (50/50 w/ Power Runes Ala Scholar, but if you don’t have the $ just throw some ruby orbs), Soldier Trinkets w/ Ruby Jewels, and a Valk Amulet.

Lots of toughness, decent HP, high crit chance & + crit dmg. Mix with Truffle Ravioli is what I do (100 Tough/70 Vit).

Despite what Stiv said, I still think doubling down on toughness > raw damage.

http://gw2buildcraft.com/calculator/thief/?7|c.1g.hd.8.1g.a7|0.0.0.0.0.0|1n.7e.1g.7e.1n.7e.1g.7e.1n.7e.1g.7e|1p.67.1c.67.1c.67.1c.67.1c.67.1i.67|a3.u36b.u045.0.0|0.0|e

(link to how I roll)

I want to be able to create a thieves guild thief pet every time I dodge, and cleanse a condition every time I fart.

What are you talking about, our skills have crazy deeps. Like, on shortbow, I can put not one but THREE (count ‘em) three poison fields for 4 seconds. And I can spam cluster bomb all day, although it’s travel time is a cooldown unto itself…

But wait, I can also toss a dagger that was nerfed by 50% damage and is only effective vs. more than one person for paltry damage and a fleeting snare, for a bargain 4 initiative.

Pretty much every ability that isn’t a stealth skill is pure utility (and even some stealth skills are pure utility, but actually worthwhile, like Tactical Strike.) And not even good utility, in that it’s almost a waste to use unless you’re desperate.

Most people don’t understand the thief, XII seems to take that to the extreme…

oZii.2864:

Anyway just bump this when you made the video. I can’t wait for the lulz

Don’t hold your breath….

Sebrent.3625:

Forcing the thief to stealth is the same as moving them off. Hence, due to the Thief’s dependence (as described by so many of you) on stealth, it isn’t hard to move them off a point.

Also, if you actually listened to the top sPvP players, Thieves can be good roamers, but with the current power of the Elementalist, especially due to not needing stealth and having massive amounts of AOE, the Elementalist is the prime class to have as a roamer.

As far as the “unseeable” and “massive DPS killing machine” … as I’ve said many times before, those are two different thief specs.

The unseeable is an issue in that they still do good enough damage to kill you while spending a ridiculously low amount of time out of stealth.

The massive DPS killing machine does damage just like any other glass cannon. However, the difference is the lack of animations. We see elementalists ride the lighting, burning speed, etc.. We see warriors bull’s charge, bola, 100 blades, eviscerate, etc.. We do not see the stealth thief and their backstab.

You didn’t really answer the question…

If they can spike so much damage (and in such an unfair, mega OP means), why are they so undesired?

Could it be that good players have (gasp) learned how to deal with this incredibly OP means of damage delivery??

As far as roaming goes, I don’t understand why you mention stealth. We do not require stealth for our access to mobility, nor does it have any bearing on our mobility (outside of escape tactics), so why exactly is that a hindrance?