No idea about other games. But even if you find something, it’d require to rework the gw2 system entirely. It’s months, maybe years of working. Seeing how fast anet updates their game, you won’t see that before 2100. You can’t rework a combat system fully like that, especially when it doesn’t give you more gem buyers.
Not necessarily I don’t code, and I’m sure you don’t either. So you can’t say it will as much as i can’t say it wont.
And here lies the problem. The specific people who did code the game explained what oxtred is telling you, and you claim your uninformed counter claim holds just as much wait. You are making opposing claims to the actual creators of the game and expect to be taken seriously.
provide me evidence.
We’re back on the same misconception: conditions are viable. The design flaw that makes them undesirable in optimised content doesn’t mean it’s not viable. You and I know it lacks something to be totally efficient in group play, but your average condi guardian spending 1k gems/ months to pay his legendary don’t. Yeah, most people, myself included, would be pleased with some new content, or some tweaked mechanics, but we’re not the target of anet’s update for now. Hardcore dungeon runners have enough money to buy everything with gold. I agree with you, ideally whoever is in charge of updating the game should listen to everyone and adress things like that. But i don’t need to be a professional coder to say such a change would be a lot of work. It’s not even about code, it’s about balance. Either you make the condition cap per player and world bosses are getting one shotted by 2500 bleeds, or you change the problem at its roots and give condi players reserved conditions, making hybrid specs a dream. Then people would complain, saying building a balanced build between condis and power is impossible, etc. No matter how you look at those kind of things, there’s no real solution, and that’s why 2 years later we’re still stuck with that. Not that i mind, i find the power supremacy in group totally fine, but that’s only a matter of personal opinion.
You think 100 people would all be able to max out their bleeds on a boss? or am i miss reading that? What if we started more on a small scale. Dungeons. could test the waters there view how it effects server performance, make adjustments as needed. I don’t think the problem is so unworkable that we can’t find a solution.
No idea about other games. But even if you find something, it’d require to rework the gw2 system entirely. It’s months, maybe years of working. Seeing how fast anet updates their game, you won’t see that before 2100. You can’t rework a combat system fully like that, especially when it doesn’t give you more gem buyers.
Not necessarily I don’t code, and I’m sure you don’t either. So you can’t say it will as much as i can’t say it wont.
And it actually it does give more gem buyers. For example, I know a large amount of people who refuse to buy gems because arena net are not addressing these types of problems. There is also the fact that a large chunk of the GW2 community is a carry over from GW1. And many of them love builds. Giving people more viable option to use means that people are going to want to buy more gems either to fill out their new gear, get new looks for the gear and so on. So, yes it does. How much does it effect it? I can’t actually say but it would have an positive impact in the long run.
You didn’t have to reply. I can’t make you do anything.
As others have mentioned, you posted misinformation, so I did need to reply.
Uhh, no i didn’t.
Umm, yes, yes you did. Example one is……………
However they are doing it. Their reason for balancing it in the way that they did at launch was because of how hexes worked in GW1.
thanks for misquoting me kitten. Believe. Not statement of fact. I might have forgotten to add “might have something to do with” to the line of text, but you are still misquoting me.
I didn’t imply that it was intentional. However they are doing it. I do believe that their reason for balancing it in the way that they did at launch was because of how hexes worked in GW1.
And unless you have anything to support that, being as it completely contradicts the reasoning the game creators are offering, it is completely inaccurate and misinformed.
multiple similarities between conditions and hexes from the two games. Conditions in gw2 are almost like hexes gutted and simplified for the new game. You can go back and see for yourself. Their uses and scaling is pretty striking how similar they are.
But you’re right I could be misinformed on that and I’ll drop this part of it.
Why not post the suggested alternatives? Along with the one being used now. As long as its legal information to view. I’m sure GW2 isn’t the first game to run into this sort of problem.
Non exhaustive list of random things said about conditions:
-up condi damage
- make a new stack for each 25 previous stacks ( like a superbleed or something, that could make a small sense, but it’s undoable due to the non splitting of pve and pvp)
-yours, as just forget the condi cap
-nerf berserker damage ( already done, badly but done, and we all knew/know it’s stupid)
-require condi for some puzzles (yay build diversity)
-make the average mob armor higher ( same as a damage nerf)
-change all the condi system and make only condition based weapons and builds apply damaging condition ( it would be a totally different game for balance, and the effects on pvp specs are non negligeable, but that would be the only one working)
-bring back the trinity and delete berserker/assassin from the game (lol.)
-your suggestion as well, making the cap char bound
That’s all i’m thinking of right now, there’s probably funniest things to remember because people are really desesperate about it, but if we take only the logical suggestions, they are all undoable because of Anet’s policy.
For detailed suggestions about how the game’s engine treat conditions, there’s a post somewhere on the forum or on the wiki about it, can’t link from here though.
not quite what I asked for. How about this. I’m not too familiar with other MMOs outside of GW1 and GW2. I’ve dabbled in a few here and there but never really got enough into it to get their meta game.
How do other games deal with DoTs? Perhaps we can look to those. I’m sure there is a system that might work. I’m thinking coding and mechanics behind the scenes.
You didn’t have to reply. I can’t make you do anything.
As others have mentioned, you posted misinformation, so I did need to reply.
Uhh, no i didn’t.
Umm, yes, yes you did. Example one is……………
However they are doing it. Their reason for balancing it in the way that they did at launch was because of how hexes worked in GW1.
thanks for misquoting me kitten. Believe. Not statement of fact. I might have forgotten to add “might have something to do with” to the line of text, but you are still misquoting me.
I didn’t imply that it was intentional. However they are doing it. I do believe that their reason for balancing it in the way that they did at launch was because of how hexes worked in GW1.
For now every condition is calculated separately for each tick, and there’s rules about wich will get priority of application and stuff, kinda boring to explain, but it already slows down the game at 25 cap, so a bigger picture would be even worse. For 2 years people searched for alternatives and none was found. At least, nothing doable. If you get all these negatives answers, it’s because it has been discussed ad nauseam, granted less than the " why can’t i wear ptv in speedruns ?". Even good ideas were never implemented in dungeons. There’s no dungeon team. Hence people doing the same subject everyday is useless.
Why not post the suggested alternatives? Along with the one being used now. As long as its legal information to view. I’m sure GW2 isn’t the first game to run into this sort of problem.
You didn’t have to reply. I can’t make you do anything.
As others have mentioned, you posted misinformation, so I did need to reply.
Uhh, no i didn’t.
Vuln gives you more damage, even it’s not damaging itself, but whatever. My point about server performance still stands. Out of topic, but i’m speaking of dagger aa, not ds aa, wich is less dps on the long run. Seeing how condis are calculated, deleting the cap is impossible. I could search for an hour the exact statement about that, but i’m really too lazy for that. So now mind answering my question, how do you want a server to calculate thousands of bleed ticks ( wich would be in a team construction as you call it) every second? Lag is already annoying, no thanks.
whats the code that is being used for conditions now? I’m sure an alternative that would allow for such a change exist without causing too many if any problems. They would need to search for those alternatives. I don’t believe it will be easy. Nothing that is worth while is easy. But I do believe its possible.
I still think how GW1 was has something to do with it. I don’t doubt that what you’re saying was a problem, I’m saying that there is probably more too it then that. And, they should be exploring alternative methods of fixing the problem. OR they need to completely rework how conditions work/are applied.
Well that is fine, you go on thinking what you like. I am simply stating to you, the facts as they were relayed by the folks the built the game, in this vary same forums. As well, they have stated that they are attempting to rework conditions in a manner to allow them to work with the games infrastructure.
What I am telling you is that you are forcing a discussion on us that has already been had, only you are pushing your personal beliefs at people when it is contrary to the actual situation.
You didn’t have to reply. I can’t make you do anything.
Who’s bad at paying attention? You’re speaking of a non issue. As colesy showed above, condi already does more damage than berserker for many classes in solo. Buffing them in group setting can’t be done without upping them in solo, at least for now. Therefore, you can’t buff it. I’ll quote myself since i’m not paying attention and repeating the same things over and over again.
condis are already good and buffing them in the only place they aren’t would have unwanted consequences.
I’m sorry, but no. The Condi warrior in that example capped at around 6.5k a second while a zerker necromancer caps at 10k auto. And proper warriors in groups do even better then that. And how would my suggestion buff them in solo? Giving people individualized caps doesn’t magically make you apply 300 bleeds. You’re still stuck at 25, it would just mean someone else wouldn’t be effected. Your bizarrely extreme situation is a rarity. Its not indicative of every part of PvE. You can’t even get what I’m suggesting right to argue against it!
A necro will get 10k auto in group, not in solo. And even then, 10k is high, you’ll most likely see 5-7k max. But back on topic: your suggestion would break the game, period. Not speaking of balance, but of server performance. Imagine a tequatl kill, with like 80 players, each having bleeds ticking. Server needs to know which bleeds come from who, for each tick, for thousands of bleeds, accounting might stacks, player specs, etc. So, you just can’t. Also, i’m still laughing at 125 vuln in dungeons. We’re stuck with condis being less effective with more players because the cap won’t move.
And you again are getting information wrong. It was clear from the start that I was talking about damage conditions. And that I was talking about team construction. Its in the title for Grenth’s sake. And yes, without a group I get 7k. That is STILL Better then the condi warrior’s damage.
Who’s bad at paying attention? You’re speaking of a non issue. As colesy showed above, condi already does more damage than berserker for many classes in solo. Buffing them in group setting can’t be done without upping them in solo, at least for now. Therefore, you can’t buff it. I’ll quote myself since i’m not paying attention and repeating the same things over and over again.
condis are already good and buffing them in the only place they aren’t would have unwanted consequences.
I’m sorry, but no. The Condi warrior in that example capped at around 6.5k a second while a zerker necromancer caps at 10k auto. And proper warriors in groups do even better then that. And how would my suggestion buff them in solo? Giving people individualized caps doesn’t magically make you apply 300 bleeds. You’re still stuck at 25, it would just mean someone else wouldn’t be effected. Your bizarrely extreme situation is a rarity. Its not indicative of every part of PvE. You can’t even get what I’m suggesting right to argue against it!
What’s the point then? You’re adressing your issue in a forum. Where people are answering your question and giving you arguments. If you want to be a deaf spambot like the others, just send them tickets or something. I can’t see why you’re going on that forum ( probably the last place to encounter someone from anet except if you use some keywords like gemstore or living story) for ranting. If you don’t care about what anet is saying at least try to see what players are saying, that condis are already good and buffing them in the only place they aren’t would have unwanted consequences.
Tl;dr: you’re not reopening “discussions”, you’re reopening mindless ranting.
Wow you are bad at paying attention. I said I don’t care what they said they wont do, then I gave an example of why not. There is a difference between that and saying I don’t care what they say at all. There are countless problems in the game that should have been fixed by now but haven’t. VERY SIMPLE PROBLEMS TOO! Instead of actually trying to find a solution, you are saying to close the discussion entirely. This isn’t constructive or healthy for the longevity of the game. Arena net needs to pay attention rather then just sweeping it under the rug.
Plus, Condi isn’t as strong in the damage department as power is. Average power build vs average condi build in most situations is about a 20k difference over 10 seconds.
Just like stacking toughness works in open world but is selfish in dungeons, stacking a solo stat won’t work in speedruns. You still can use your condi whatever in an “all welcomed” run who doesn’t care about group effort.
Why can’t people be like “You know what, you’re right Lily. There does seem to be a problem with how its balanced for PvE. And this does lead to player discrimination. Perhaps we should discuss this further and help open the conversation to the devs to try and find a solution everyone will be happy with instead of pretending the problem doesn’t exist.” But that’ll never happen. Instead we get “Just play your bad build and quit complaining about it being bad and join bad parties.” Getting frustrated with the number of traits and skills that are wasted potential because condi’s override each other? WHO CARES! Lets have more worthless skills and traits that are only a small step away from being good.
I think you misunderstood me. I totally agree that condis are inferior in group contents because of the stacking cap and all. The discussion was opened countless times, and the only things we know are: devs won’t move the 25 cap, and devs don’t want to split pve and pvp skills. I wouldn’t mind having a few other builds to play in speedruns ( speaking of real speedruns, like world records), but if a condi build deals the same damage as a power based one in group, the difference between the two in solo would be incredible. You also have to take into account that a full berserker/sin meta build has far less survivability than any condi build. Yup, condis shouldn’t get a spot in speedruns, for the reasons above. And yup, that doesn’t prevent you from using it in a pug. It’s not about bad groups or good groups, it’s about solo (=selfish) play and group play. Power base builds support each others via vuln, might, and offensive supports like banners or spotter. Condi are selfish. Maybe that’s a design flaw, not imo but i can see your point, it’s still too late to rework all the game.
That doesn’t mean your argument is dumb and i know better, it means the issue has already been discussed and no solution was found for 2 years, for something that’s not even an issue for most.
The squeaky wheel gets the oil. That’s what my mom always said. And I’ll keep reopening the discussion until its fixed. I honestly don’t give two kittens what arena net said they wont do. They also said they wouldn’t let players change their build for free because of some really really bad reason about personalizing the hero and they said didn’t want to split skill balance for PvE and PvP. So if this thread gets closed in a week, I’ll just make a new one.
Power builds do not have back end restrictions. Conditions on the other hand have to be tracked individually per condition, per stack, as well as fluctuating condition damage stat levels on the player. This is in fact, why conditions have the limitations they do. Having all of that in mind, I am a little curious why the OP implies that Anet is intentionally limiting their options or how a player can play.
I didn’t imply that it was intentional. However they are doing it. I do believe that their reason for balancing it in the way that they did at launch was because of how hexes worked in GW1.
No, they balanced it the way they did, because the coding and server situation was causing problems and there was too much information for them to keep up with each individual condition + each individual stack for each individual player. The davs have stated this a few times before.
I still think how GW1 was has something to do with it. I don’t doubt that what you’re saying was a problem, I’m saying that there is probably more too it then that. And, they should be exploring alternative methods of fixing the problem. OR they need to completely rework how conditions work/are applied.
In group play if a zerker build is ever out damaged by a condi build the zerker player either fell asleep or doesn’t know how to play. 10k DPS on a zerker build is pretty reasonable in group play (in fact its fairly low for a few builds), and yet to get 10k DPS in a condi build with 2k condition damage, you need to stack 70 bleeds. Even if you include burning (828 damage), poison (284), torment (214 while moving), you’d need to be able to maintain 25 stacks of bleeding and torment, and have permanent poison and burning, all on your own (assuming they allowed you your own stacks) just to match a lower DPS point than the “top” power builds reach.
There are two major things they need to fix: re-doing boss HP/armor so they maintain the same eHP but with higher armor so that condition builds have fairly equal DPS, and make it so a warrior’s 50 DPS 2s bleed doesn’t overwrite a Necro’s 140 DPS 20s one. That would at least allow groups to have one or two (depending on what conditions they use) condi builds per group without hurting them. And improving condis in “casual” speed runs is honestly a great starting point.
This would be a good start but I don’t think we should stop at that. It defiantly would be a much easier fix then allowing each player their own individual stacks. There are still a tone of major problems with it, but at least Condi builds could have some place on teams.
Just like stacking toughness works in open world but is selfish in dungeons, stacking a solo stat won’t work in speedruns. You still can use your condi whatever in an “all welcomed” run who doesn’t care about group effort.
Why can’t people be like “You know what, you’re right Lily. There does seem to be a problem with how its balanced for PvE. And this does lead to player discrimination. Perhaps we should discuss this further and help open the conversation to the devs to try and find a solution everyone will be happy with instead of pretending the problem doesn’t exist.” But that’ll never happen. Instead we get “Just play your bad build and quit complaining about it being bad and join bad parties.” Getting frustrated with the number of traits and skills that are wasted potential because condi’s override each other? WHO CARES! Lets have more worthless skills and traits that are only a small step away from being good.
You’re saying things like that without actually understanding how much damage conditions are capable of because you haven’t bothered to theory craft or experiment with them. The potency of conditions in solo depends on which ones you can apply, how much you can apply and the amount of direct damage and vulnerability in comparison you are capable of doing. Warriors can maintain enormous amounts of might so conditions are only better versus heavy targets for them. Ranger berserker dps sucks, so conditions might even be better for them versus medium targets (especially when axe main gains might on hit) – though I haven’t tested that. Here is what I’ve discovered – conditions ‘in general’ are superior solo versus heavy targets – warrior conditions are inferior against anything lighter but it’s up in the air for other classes.
In solo… IN SOLO!!! May I remind you to read the title of the thread?
I’m perfectly aware of condi problems in group setting. And even then, it’s strictly for speedruns, because pugs won’t usually cap 25 bleeds on their own. But people in this thread are talking about something they don’t really know, and think berserker is some magical gear allowing 1000k damage in a sec or something. Condi is powerful in solo, in pvp, in roaming.
I also don’t get your point about AI. Giving mobs cleanse would destroy condi, right? And giving them dodges would make burst dps more important ( kill them before they dodge), and further enforce berserker gear. I still prefer what we have now where everyone plays how he wants but optimal players clear the content faster. The condi weakness is its cap, but Anet already stated they can’t change it. Maybe they’ll in 2 or 3 years because people are really insisting, but for now it won’t happen. So, sorry for you, but there’s no magical solution.
No. But power builds lend themselves much better to team play then conditions do. Any damage condition applied by allies harms a condition sets over all damage. For example, My necromancer can sustain 25 stack of bleed, and poison with a few stacks of torment, burning and occasionally some extra damage from terror. Not as good as the warrior in the video, maintain permanent up time of burning, bleeding and 6 stacks of torment, but its pretty kitten close. But you throw just one warrior, mesmer or even necro with a passive bleed and those 25 stacks go down to 20 or 15. That is a major cut in damage.
We also have skills that would benefit greatly from the suggestion. Such as the Theif’s venom skills or the guardians Virtue of Justice. Even poison fields get better from this. Why oppose this? Also, the new mobs do remove conditions. I play condi enough to notice that sort of thing. They aren’t very good at it though seeing as I still burn through them.
Also, PvE.
You tell us condi is less damage than power.
I deny it.
You ask for proofs.
I, and others, give proofs.
Now you say it’s irrelevant.
I didn’t. I am talking about team construction. Its in the title. If you do that thing call, looking up you’ll see it. Also, the example is an extreme situation that will never happen in a team situation. So I ask. Show me the comparison between the 5 zerker warriors and the 5 condi warriors. I’ll wait for you to make the two videos. I have time.
1) a condi warrior deals more damage than a berserker one on a heavy armored target, so yeah, conditions are already outdamaging pure power ( with free toughness on top)
2) The cap issue has been acknowledged by anet, it’s a strict server problem, you can’t keep track of 5×25 bleeds, at least that’s what they said.
3) You can play how you want. Just join any “all welcomed” lfg or start your own. Sure, you won’t be accepted for a speedrun in rabid, how’s that surprising?
4) The only way to make condi more suited for pve without destroying pvp is to split the skills and mechanics, and we’re used to anet not wanting that.
All in all, yeah having condi builds viable in groups would be a change. But they are already so powerful in all other game modes where berserker doesn’t shine, meh. Condi builds already deal too much damage for the amount of toughness it provides, imo. Also, if conditions are calculated for each players, that means125 vuln stacks. lel.I want to see some actual evidence for 1.
Find me a faster solo in berserker gear.
Now show me the same fight with 5 zerker warriors and compare that to 5 condi warriors.
Power builds do not have back end restrictions. Conditions on the other hand have to be tracked individually per condition, per stack, as well as fluctuating condition damage stat levels on the player. This is in fact, why conditions have the limitations they do. Having all of that in mind, I am a little curious why the OP implies that Anet is intentionally limiting their options or how a player can play.
I didn’t imply that it was intentional. However they are doing it. I do believe that their reason for balancing it in the way that they did at launch was because of how hexes worked in GW1.
If the fixes were so easy to implement from a coding/game design point of view I’m sure they would have fixed conditions by now given the multitude of threads that have appeared on the forums in nearly 2 years of GW2.
The problem is they can’t seem to find a good way to fix the issue.
They’ve begun addressing it somewhat by adding condition phases to some bosses ( Scarlet’s Knights, Wurm) but ultimately unless they can find a good coding solution things aren’t going to change.You and many others have brought up these “restrictions” time and time again – and I’m all for them being removed but honestly I doubt they can make it happen with the game’s current architecture.
Maybe in time they’ll figure out a fix.It’s sadly not as simple as asking for a fix and getting one.
Also condi is rather strong in some situations – I’ll quote maha here :
Why should the difference between berserker and other sets be lower? Why should people be rewarded with similar clear times if they are stacking defensive stats? I’ve soloed lupicus in 4:58 in berserker and 5:11 in rabid gear. How is it fair that I can wear a gear stat which gives me like 3k armour and get a kill time on par with a gear stat that has no defensive stat?
I’m aware that it isn’t simple, but it should be on their top priorities considering they clearly do want people to use conditions. Especially considering how much focus some of the new traits have been on conditions in that update a while back. I’m curious to see if there is a way to make it so the conditions are more player dependent then server. If that makes any sense.
I think most of us are aware of how powerful power builds and teams are in PvE. And how weak in comparison their rival damage counter part is. But why is that? Sure, power builds have a maximum higher DPS then conditions do, but condition damage is far more stable and ignores damage modifiers. Surely they should be on equal footing right? Wrong. Anyone can see the disparity between the two just by playing with other people. So lets take a look at why this is.
Why power is so good:
- Multiple people can run power without reducing each others damage: Power build’s damage isn’t dependent on their party members to be good. Its always going to hit for as much as you invest into it. You don’t get a damage equalizer if you are doing too much damage or if a party member just so happens to be running the same build.
- Most power builds stack vulnerability: Vulnerability modifies the damage of all allies, reducing the overall armor of the foe. Because it doesn’t deal damage itself everyone in the party benefits from it regardless of how many people are stacking it on the foe.
- Power brings and shares a lot of might: Power builds will often have a large amount of might stacks that they will share with their allies. This lends itself well for easy team construction.
- Random condition immunity or removal does little to power’s damage: Foes that remove conditions in mass don’t phase power teams. They can quickly stack vulnerability back up without too much of a problem if at all. And the minor damage that their passive traits that apply damage conditions rarely, if ever make a difference in a fight.
- Power builds have an easy time destroying objects: Objects are unaffected by conditions and immune to critical hits. Power builds tend to provide enough damage on their own in order to make up for the loss of critical hits.
Why condition is so bad:
- Condition builds fight for stacks with their allies: If you get two Rabid necromancers next to each other in a fight against the same foe both of them will be struggling to maximize their damage. Seeing as their is a hard cap of 25 stacks that everyone has to share, each person who applies damaging conditions is effectively reducing the damage of everyone else. Needless to say this also means that condition users don’t play well together.
- Damage is slower to build: Although Conditions can hit really hard over time, they tend to be rather creeping at times, often not hitting their max damage potential for a few seconds. Compared to power’s who damage is pretty consistent and is often just as good at the start as it is at the end.
- Condition immunity and removal: A few enemies have immunity to different damage conditions. Such as poison, burning and fear. This can seriously hinder the damage of condition build already that might rely on these for damage. Not to mention the enemies that are more then capable of removing conditions on mass, taking all that work you did trying to build them up and reducing the damage even further.
- Condition builds struggle to destroy objects: Because conditions builds tend to have low power, they have a harder time destroying objects.
What needs to change:
Conditions are never going to out damage power builds. And I don’t expect them too. But they should at least out preform power builds in some situations. And should be a viable option. For starters, Allowing everyone to apply their damage conditions individually from one another so each person can max out their conditions would be a great start. This would solve many of the problems they have in teams. This would mean the ranger could be getting damage off on its poison along side the necromancer getting their damage off of poison. Both party members could be maximizing their bleeds as well along with the added benefit of the guardian giving them an extra bit of burning to truly boost the parties damage rather then fighting with each other to try and improve their own. This would also mean that power and condition builds could work side by side without the power player pushing off the condition player’s damage conditions unintentionally.
Arena Net said they wanted people to play how they want. Well, I want to use conditions. And disincentivizing me from using them by putting so many needless restrictions on them isn’t the way to do it. People in the community have been crying out for you to change this for well over a year now. its long past time you guys fixed this issue.
I’ve tried on death because you are forced to by certain trait trees. I’m forced to play with Parasitic Bond in most builds I play, I used to be forced to use Reanimator. It hasn’t changed my opinion.
You don’t even like condition builds. What would you know about what is useful to us? You favor minions, which I would say are very niche in PvE, far far more so then my own condi build.
I’m fairly certain that was sarcasm, if not I’ll go ahead and say it’d still be awful.
On-death traits are just bad. I put up with Death Nova because it was amazing before they added Reanimator into it, and so its just a little w/e addition sometimes. But purely on-death traits are not a good mechanic for this game. Notice how the few on-death sigils are literally never used. If the thing is procing often enough to matter you’ll win anyway without it, and if they don’t proc… well yeah. Its the same reason people don’t take stacking sigils in PvP, or why people don’t buy Mejai’s or Sword of the Occult in League, its too high risk if it doesn’t work (wasted slot) and the reward is a slightly faster win.
On death either needs to greatly increase what it can proc on, or simply be reworked.
Or you need to play with it instead of speculate about it. Because what works on paper doesn’t always work in practice, and what doesn’t look like it will be good on paper is actually better in practice.
Your proposed changed would increase the significance of this trait greatly.
finally, we agree on something.
Yeah the more I think about it the more I think it’s op. They should swap it with dhuumfire.
You’re sarcasm isn’t welcome.
And the more I think about it. Changing it slightly would lend itself better to the builds that want it. Say rather then 3 conditions on deaths, 2 conditions are converted into boons on deaths. Same cool down. But now you have a mini well of power effect. I’d actually really like that.
I always disagree with bawb about minions in GW2. GW1 minions were just 1000x better. Sure you can use them in the only game type in PvP there is for GW2 and Minions were much harder to pull off in GW1. But They were a blast to play and use. But now they don’t even work correctly 90% of the time.
I’d suggest having the best of both worlds. Having dedicated minion skills that spawn from nothing and dedicated minion skills that spawn from corpses and have a short recharge with health degen that are spammable.
I wanted to make a minion build. I really did. But when they are actually less useful then the blood thirsty minions of GW1 that ran into a mob when you were trying to sneak past them and avoid combat.
On a side note and this is very Important. Minion AI needs to be FIXED before we get any major changes. As much as I would adore spammable corpse minions.
Well, all except on swap sigils. We still can’t swap our weapons while in Death Shroud I believe.
Yes. Unlike attunements, conjure weapons or kits, Death shroud doesn’t count as a weapon swap. Just thought I’d add that.
Enough said,
Death Shroud = adrenalineIf warriors cannot carry their adrenaline to the next battle, then necros should not be able to carry their 100% full Death Shroud to the next battle. Their life force should decay as soon as they exit combat PERIOD.
Warriors also build adrenaline in a couple attacks while necromancers take half a fight to build it up IF they are dedicated to it. Also, the core of the warrior’s defenses are not completely dependent on Adrenaline.
Necros gain life force with most skills used, plus they also have traits that enhance life force while in combat. Their Death Shroud should not carry to the next battle PERIOD!
16 skills generate life force. Out of them, 2 are underwater skills and another 2 are part of one damage chain. And another one generates it while in death shroud. The necromancer has 60 skills in total. So no. Most of our skills DO NOT generate life force.
8 traits effect life force in some way. That’s 8 traits out of 80.
So no, you are incorrect. Warriors build adrenaline much faster then necromancers do with no investment. And this was never a problem because of the way those are designed. Necromancer’s DS builds very slowly in all places except when a large number of deaths are occurring. Such as events.
The two profession skills have little in common with each other and you can’t base your assumptions about if a profession’s mechanic is unbalanced when you have never even played the profession yourself.
Enough said,
Death Shroud = adrenalineIf warriors cannot carry their adrenaline to the next battle, then necros should not be able to carry their 100% full Death Shroud to the next battle. Their life force should decay as soon as they exit combat PERIOD.
Warriors also build adrenaline in a couple attacks while necromancers take half a fight to build it up IF they are dedicated to it. Also, the core of the warrior’s defenses are not completely dependent on Adrenaline.
The issue with the trait isn’t so much what it does but how often it does it and when it does it. Cleansing conditions after killing something might have some extremely niche use, but when it doesn’t proc in most difficult combat situations (when you need it), its not an issue of expecting the trait to be more powerful, its just expecting the trait to function.
After using the trait for over a year, I can say with confidence that It does proc when I need it most.
You exaggerate.
Okay, master trait but still, you’re expecting too much from an adept trait.
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See the difference between us is I don’t expect a Grandmaster trait in an Adept slot.
The trait isn’t really helpful with escaping….. It helps after you’ve won.
WoP is a fantastic skill. It is suboptimal in the pve zerker let’s all stack in a corner nonsense. It is very useful in pvp though.
Using your argument none of the traits are in fact useless since they all do “something” I really don’t understand why you seem to be hell bent on defending a trait that is seriously just kittening bad, other than just to argue for the sake of arguing.
Because I don’t think its bad. on a rating of 1-5 I’d give it a 3.
I really only use that trait if running un-optimized or over optimized MM but it can be useful, except now we can retrait for free out of combat
oh, Grenth yes! It was about time they let us do that. Now all they need to do is add build saving because I switch build frequently.
Yes, Necro does not need a defensive weapon. Necro is inherently defensive, already. An offensive, chest-forward weapon with cleave is needed. I prefer something with bleed and torment, too.
I disagree with you. However I don’t see any reason why a cleaving, defensive weapon with damaging conditions couldn’t be added. Also, I find survival on a mesmer, guardian or engineer far far easier and more intuitive to grasp then defenses on a Necromancer. Also, necromancer’s defenses scale down while other professions defenses scale up.
Thats simply how they have chosen to give us defence. I dont like it either. But i dont seem them doing much to change it. And i dont think a defensive weapon is that important on the priority list. Especially as the place where necro is in a terrible place is in PvE. Where extra defence isnt really needed at the moment. Only fight we lack the proper defence tools for is Mai Trin.
But yeah i understand what you mean. We will just have to agree we would rather see different weapons first. And that we have different priorities and values in game.
If they were to add a new weapon I’m in favor of scythes as our cleaving weapon. All the way. Don’t care if its pure power, hybrid, condi. I’ll use it.
The question isn’t if a trait can be used in a build and find some use. The question is if a trait is strong when compared to other traits at that level. 3 conditions removed on an enemy death is just really really bad compared to other adept traits. Vampiric rituals is the same way. It might be kind of useful sometimes, but compared to traits from other classes in the same spot it is just not up to par. Stop trying to say, I find this trait useful sometimes so it isn’t bad. Just because it is useful to you sometimes doesn’t mean it is good.
Considering the necromancer is poor at escaping and avoiding combat, allowing yourself to drop combat quicker by having this automatic condition removal is useful for roaming and mapping. Not to mention some fractals. And before anyone complains about me using a condi build in fractals, I’m not the only one on this forum who does. This trait becomes especially effective against the Grawl Shaman during the second part when the lava elemental start to immobilize you and your party in mass. Far more then a few times it allowed me to re-position myself and get the upper hand.
I Never said the trait was great. Just not that bad. The thread is called “List of Useless traits” And I have clearly made a case for the trait not being useless. You can disagree if you’re so inclined, however Not a single one of you have presented a relevant argument to suggest it is actually useless, or even bad.
(edited by Lily.1935)
Ive used Vampiric Wells since launch and i love it. In pve, your Wail of Doom is an aoe stun (daze, but in pve daze = stun) to keep enemies in it. Its not the most damage, but i like the sustain from it in extended fights in PvE. Its a good substitute for lack of Vigor.
You ever try using Sigil of energy? I tend to use that allot.
Because a mace will be slow and i doubt it will provide decent dps. Its not the cleave solution we need.
Warriors mainhand mace is only used for solos where you need extra blocks such as leurent. The offhand is used very often. But mace on guard is pretty much useless. I dont really want to see us get a new weapon which turns out to be even more useless than the axe.
Personally, I don’t think this is a good argument. Maces on other professions do provide a cleave and they are not used very much. The problem with having every profession using a greatsword and sword is it starts to lose its uniqueness. Which Swords and Greatswords actually have already lost that.
How the mace could be used with a necromancer might not be what you want, however Necromancers have very VERY good damage option at the moment and I personally feel that the area we are seriously lacking is in the defensive department. giving us a block would go a long way for survivability.
I know I’m in the minority in this, But I personally was never bothered by not having a cleaving weapon. And I think if we are going to start with a cleaving weapon we should start small and give us a proper defensive weapon.
This is just a personal conflict of preference. I dont think the mace will feel fun or interesting. And you dont think sword or greatsword will.
Anet will most likely keep consistancy across weapons. So a mace would be a lower dps control weapon. Whereas sword and greatsword are likely to be more about high/moderate dps with aoe/cleave potential. You might not be bothered by not having a cleave weapon aesthetically. But its a huge design hole when you consider other classes. And i think its safe to assume that the majority would prefer greatsword for this reason and for aesthetic reasons despite how common they already are. Which is unfortunate for you assuming that anet go by the majority (the logical choice).
We already have 2 defensive weapons. The problem is they dont fit the standard idea of defensive weapons (blocks and evades). The necro has been designed to not have any extra conventional active defence so the type of defence we get are blinds, weakness, cc and other debuffs like cripple and chill. These are aggressive defence options. Offhand dagger and warhorn both cover these very well.
Actually I never said I thought the sword or greatsword wouldn’t be fun. They probably would be. My point was that there already is a major focus on them and that there are plenty of other weapons that almost never get used. I also didn’t say that the necromancer shouldn’t ever get them, just that I would rather get a proper defensive weapon first before we get another heavy offensive weapon.
Offhand dagger and warhorn are not actually defensive. You could say that control is a form of defense and I would be inclined to agree with you, however this isn’t the point I am making.I would put these more firmly in the control category then raw defense. Having a weapon that can block or evade can go a long way in terms of defenses. And its something we seriously lack and this weakness has been abused.
Especially talking about the dagger, although it can be used very defensively in PvP and WvW, in PvE it doesn’t work as well. Considering most(if not all) bosses in the game are unaffected by blind and don’t seem to care about weakness. This also applies to the warhorn which quite often can’t stun bosses either.
The closest weapon we have to a defensive weapon is the staff. And I’d call that more of a support weapon then defensive. The staff is probably the weapon that builds death shroud the fastest, excluding maybe MAYBE the dagger, it has 2 CCs, regenerate, and transfers conditions.
I understand your point so I hope you understand mine.
You are the only one who has been saying pve most of us were talking about traits as a whole. But I’m glad you like the trait that fits into your niche build that is suboptimal for pve rock on.
At least I actually experiment with builds and traits… Unlike you who follows the crowed. Besides, I wasn’t defending this trait for PvP or WvW. Just said it wasn’t as bad you you fools think.
It’s been a long time since the last balance patch actually affected Necros meaningfully, the time to experiment is long past.
Your build IS suboptimal, just accept it and stop thinking that just because you are playing something different you are better, the opposite is more likely.
Stop projecting.
You are the only one who has been saying pve most of us were talking about traits as a whole. But I’m glad you like the trait that fits into your niche build that is suboptimal for pve rock on.
At least I actually experiment with builds and traits… Unlike you who follows the crowed. Besides, I wasn’t defending this trait for PvP or WvW. Just said it wasn’t as bad you you fools think.
How the mace could be used with a necromancer might not be what you want, however Necromancers have very VERY good damage option at the moment and I personally feel that the area we are seriously lacking is in the defensive department. giving us a block would go a long way for survivability.
Necromancer DPS isn’t actually that good except in WvW because we have ranged AoE direct damage. But in PvP we’re only used because of burst/1v1 potential, and in PvE we’re just not used because we have middle-range DPS at best.
Mace could do well to give us some other options, but most people think of GS because its considered a DPS cleave option, which is what we need if we ever want to be used in dungeons.
Back and forth with this. Some people say its only slightly worse then the warriors, others say its not even close, I’ve seen the stats. Make up your mind people!
Everyone with the kittens Greatsword and Sword. Honestly, those are the two most common used weapons among professions. You have ranger, warrior, mesmer, and guardian who can all use both these weapons and they are for the most part good options for all of them.
Why no love for Maces? Why can’t necromancers get a mace? Why does it always have to be swords?
I think it’s more of a lore thing.
Arena Net have shown that Lore is malleable and have already broken lore with Dhuumfire. Old wounds aside, I don’t see why a necromancer couldn’t use a mace. I don’t know of any specific characters who are necromancers who have used maces in the Lore, but that shouldn’t be a deterrent for providing a profession with new weapon options.
Because a mace will be slow and i doubt it will provide decent dps. Its not the cleave solution we need.
Warriors mainhand mace is only used for solos where you need extra blocks such as leurent. The offhand is used very often. But mace on guard is pretty much useless. I dont really want to see us get a new weapon which turns out to be even more useless than the axe.
Personally, I don’t think this is a good argument. Maces on other professions do provide a cleave and they are not used very much. The problem with having every profession using a greatsword and sword is it starts to lose its uniqueness. Which Swords and Greatswords actually have already lost that.
How the mace could be used with a necromancer might not be what you want, however Necromancers have very VERY good damage option at the moment and I personally feel that the area we are seriously lacking is in the defensive department. giving us a block would go a long way for survivability.
I know I’m in the minority in this, But I personally was never bothered by not having a cleaving weapon. And I think if we are going to start with a cleaving weapon we should start small and give us a proper defensive weapon.
I actually really like Runes of perplexity. If I ever decide to get into WvW I’ll be sure to use them. But then the question becomes, do I want to use warhorn or offhand dagger? Hmmm.
On summoning Flesh golem Runes of the Krait trigger. However on charge it does not trigger. You don’t get 2 uses out of it. That’d be nice but it isn’t the case.
It doesn’t overcome the ICD but both are capable of procing the rune set.
Hey, you’re right. What a pleasant surprise!