Guild Wars 2

draxynnic.3719:

Snip

Putting them to rest likely because they have to as Priests. This doesn’t excuse them from their actions. The player will use them and likely the priests would use other spirits to banish these spirits. The fact is the in game mechanics show us how they treat spirits.

Oh and Allies? Slaves can be allies. Just because they’re allies doesn’t mean they are not slaves. Look at pokemon for example.

Dadnir.5038:

Minion build and healing are two area where anet find trouble when it come to balance. More won’t be necessary better (vampiric already give vampirism to our minion and that’s already to strong). We just need to look at how often druid’s healing number’s have been reduced since HoT release to understand that an healing spec is a huge headache that they might not want to have again. As for minions, “rise!” was “shelter” in a nutshell.

True. However I don’t think the Ritualist elite spec should have any minion skills. If you want to be a minion master as a ritualist you should have to take the minion skills and not something like rise. This would put the emphasis on those skills. My mention of them was more in terms of how the ritualist would function for a minion build.
https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Boon_of_Creation
https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Explosive_Growth
https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Spirit%27s_Gift

These 3 skills in GW1 made Ritualist MMs unique and a Grandmaster trait in GW2 could fill that niche rather nicely that functions for anything the necromancer summons. Spirit or minions.

Another thing I’d like to point out, and I might not have stated it very well. The defensive spirits would be just that, defensive. They would not attack at all. So the spirits I listed, Shelter, Preservation and Dissonance could not benefit form that effect. However, the other skills would which would take away the need to include the spirits like bloodsong or Vampirism. Shelter wouldn’t run into the same problems as Rise due to the weaknesses it would have in comparison. First, it wouldn’t be mobile, second it would be a single entity and third the more players that are gaining its benefit the quicker it would die. Most splash damage in pvp could be enough against an unskilled necromancer to remove it however a smart player should be active with their abilities.

As for healers. Arena net does plan to add more healers. I feel that this is an area that the necromancer can shine in and I’ve stated in the past that the necromancer with a few changes could accidentally fall into that role. So why not just dedicate a spot for it?

Overall. Lets have a discussion. I’m curious to hear some ideas you might have. I Love the ritualist. And I love the necromancer. Having them together is just perfect for me.

Dadnir.5038:

Minion build and healing are two area where anet find trouble when it come to balance. More won’t be necessary better (vampiric already give vampirism to our minion and that’s already to strong). We just need to look at how often druid’s healing number’s have been reduced since HoT release to understand that an healing spec is a huge headache that they might not want to have again. As for minions, “rise!” was “shelter” in a nutshell.

Dadnir.5038:

You probably won’t be able to put everything into 1 specialization.

No but I can sure keep it true to its original incarnation.

Dadnir.5038:

I’d argue that if you want to see a “spirit ritualist” on the necromancer, the easiest way would be to put some clone/fantasm (offensive spirit type) on the shroud and fill the utility skills with ranger’s spirits which would have “degenrerative effect” (defensive spirit type)

It shouldn’t have to do that. 3 skills on the offensive side are plenty. I have thought of the 6 skills that could be used for the spirits and I’ve been tweaking those ideas for over a year. I was waiting for Arena net to make utility available in shroud since that would give us a sort of “Soul twisting” effect to work with for more defensive spirits but that seems to be a bit of a lost cause at the moment so I’ll just list off the spirits I had in mind.

• Pain: Utility. Your bread and butter spirit. Basic, Damage and a turn over of sacrificing it to cause more damage. Nothing fancy here. Just a combination of the classic of Pain and destruction.
• Wonderlust: Utility. Causes torment on attacks. Sacrifice to cause fear. Wonderlust in its previous form is way too powerful with its knock down on moving targets. However its also too iconic to be passed over.
• Call to the spirit realm: The elite. Summon Anger, Hate and Suffering. This is why I feel that 3 offensive spirits would be enough. Suddenly you have 5 active spirits on your side. Considering their closest comparison in GW2 would be turrets this is a solid number to work with. I think its flip skill should summon all of your spirits to target location, but that’s just me.
• Preservation: Heal. Heals an ally with the lowest health ever few seconds. Sacrifice it to a greater effect. Could be traited to heal downed allies.
• Shelter: Utility. Reduce damage of all allies but loses health each time an ally would have its damage reduced. How much damage and how much health it has would be up for debate. It could be 33% so it’d act like protection which could be fine. But its function would stretch to more than 5 party members which could make it a fickle spirit to keep alive. Which is how it was in GW1. I personally love shelter and that back and forth gameplay was engaging for me in its own right.
• Dissonance: Utility. This one I’ve changed completely in function from the GW1 design. My idea would be that it could pull conditions from allies onto itself rather quickly but then could be sacked to transfer those conditions to foes. Which could create a nice duality and would reward timing.

Some ideas I’ve had, you’re welcome to work with me to improve on them if you like. I have more in-depth on them, but Lets hear your thoughts.

Dadnir.5038:

We can already say that spirit weapon exist in gw2. Thieves’s venom work exactly like that.

I actually did mention this one wasn’t as important, but there is no reason that Shroud skills couldn’t house some function to aid in these sort of ideas. Though, the effect of Xinrae’s Weapon is an ability I’m most interested in in terms of Spirit weapons that we don’t have a direct equivalent off. So a skill in shroud that could function like that is desirable. https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Xinrae%27s_Weapon

Dadnir.5038:

I’m not keen on how much people played “urn” on ritualist but for me that was probably the worst mechanism of the profession. Only Khanlei was vengeful used to find it’s way in my utility bar.

I’m actually not going to disagree with you. However I must point out that Urns were supposed to be similar to how kits work in GW2. So since shroud, conjure weapons and kits already function in this niche I see them as not a required inclusion. Though some of their philosophies should be implemented into the shroud dancing idea that the necromancer currently has going. If shroud was to be replaced by an urn or a couple of urns, mechanically it could function. I have a few ideas I’d like to spit ball on that, but Its a rather new idea if you want to get into it.

draxynnic.3719:

Lily.1935:

They where known to subvert the cost of powerful spells by putting that burden on their spirits as opposed to suffering it themselves and their indifference towards spirits or outright antagonism of the spirits lead them to enslave them. To assume that the Ritualist was the “Good” side of the summoners of the undead in comparison to the necromancer was a gross misunderstanding of what they actually did.

This is actually quite incorrect… or at least, it depends on the ritualist in question. Some behave more like shepherds, communing with spirits rather than dominating them, and only forcefully binding spirits when leaving them unbound would cause more harm than good, and even then, ideally only as a temporary measure until they can be moved on to the Underworld. Others do behave as you describe, but like necromancers, ritualists can be good or even depending on how they use their powers. Simply being one does not define a ritualist’s relationship with the spirits except that there is one that allows the ritualist to call upon them.

It absolutely is correct. Just read the https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Ritualist

Ritualists channel other-worldly energies that summon allies from the void and employ mystic binding rituals that bend those allies to the Ritualist’s will. They hood their eyes to better commune with spirits that grant great power and protection to Ritualists and their comrades. The energy they channel drives Ritualist skills which enhance the deadliness of an ally’s weapon and wreak havoc on an enemy’s health. The Ritualist can also use the remains of the dead to defend the living-not by reanimating corpses as a Necromancer would, but through the ritual use of urns and ashes. Where the Ranger lives as one with the spirit world, the Ritualist can and will be its master.

I’m not just pulling this stuff out of thin air, I have a solid basis in the lore of the game.

TO put it simply, I didn’t say the Ritualists were evil. Nor did I say necromancers were good. I hinted that this is more complex than that. And No, ritualists never acted as one with the spirits. They are all binding rituals. None of the spirits summoned are willing participants. And to further aid my argument I’ll link to some more proof about their mistreatment of spirits.

https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Agony Literally a spirit summoned to suffer and die.
https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Consume_Soul Eating souls…. Why if they played nice with spirits wouldn’t they just banish them? You know like how monks do.
https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Displacement Another spirit that suffers to aid allies. It takes damage to prevent damage on those allies. You can actually see the spirit writhing in place in game while its taking damage.
https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Feast_of_Souls Literally killing all spirits to heal allies. Did I mention that the spirits in GW1 would scream when they die? they do…
https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Offering_of_Spirit This skill is interesting because if you don’t have the offering you have to pay life. But if you have a spirit the price has been payed. The flavor is very much in line with what I’ve been talking about.
https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Reclaim_Essence More destroying of your own spirits for your own benefit.
https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Spirit_Siphon Lets just steal energy from those spirits. They’re not people anymore. They’re your slaves.
https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Spirit_to_Flesh Keep the train rolling, steal its essence to heal allies.

There are tones more examples like this, in fact all of the spirits in GW1 seem to follow this line. Actively struggling against their bindings and screaming when they are killed. They don’t want to be there, they don’t have a choice. You can make the argument of “The greater good” all you like and I’d agree. However the fact that their methods are so hostile towards these spirits is something of note. They have the same philosophy towards the dead as necromancer do, just go about it in a different way.

All and all, we do know that the necromancer’s direction for the next expansion is unlikely to be anything like this. But it would be nice to have the abilities that the ritualist could provide. If you want skill examples I’ve thought of I’ll post them a bit later. I’ll even go through ideas on how the mechanic could work and how much it could change the necromancer’s play style without it feeling like an unnatural fit for the profession as opposed to the forced and awkward Druid fit for the ranger.

Mechanics

This is the point where it gets interesting. I’ll be talking about a few different mechanics that would line up with the necromancer and point out one mechanic that I feel wouldn’t serve much of a purpose in today’s landscape for GW2. But we will be discussing its place in GW1, what it was known for in gameplay and where it could fit into GW2.

• Spirits: The most iconic part of any ritualist is the spirits. These spirits, known as bound spirits, where aggressive and defensive spirits that could aid in combat or provide much needed defenses to allies. Unlike Ranger spirits these spirits were active as opposed to passive observers of the conflict. Their function would be comparable to Turrets and gyros in terms of mechanics very different in comparison to the ranger spirits which provide passive on chance abilities. These skills would be the easiest to impliment for a necromancer. These skills would need to fill the defensive and offensive space that the spirits were known for. SoS, the most popular spirit build wasn’t the only one on the market in GW1. A protective spirit build was popular as well, running things like Shelter and diversion to mitigate large chunks of damage to a whole party that otherwise might burden a healer. Both builds should be represented here and without 3 offensive and 3 defensive it wont be possible.

• Urns: Although not as well known as Spirits urns were an essential part of the ritualist’s kit. Mechanically, Kits or shroud are most similar in terms of design. Although urns never functioned as well as they should have in GW1, they would modify the ritualist’s effectiveness as a healer, damage dealer, and increase energy. The Shroud mechanic could easily take the place of an Urn or the shroud mechanic could be replaced by an Urn mechanic without too much fuss. Unfortunately, this mechanic was heavily tied into the lore of Cantha. This puts it at odds with the flavor of other races such as Sylvari or Charr who don’t share in the human values. Though this can be worked around it is something to consider. Mechanically though, the niche that urns fill is already filled by the necromancer’s shroud so it should be able to scratch that same spot for Vets.

• Spirit weapons: This is the one mechanic I’d say is least important to the ritualist’s kit when translating the profession over from GW1 to GW2. Though, not impossible to do so. Spirit weapons where the method in which Ritualist could aid in ally damage by modifying their splash damage or granting them life stealing on hit. Necromancer already does some of this and much of the point that spirit weapons served has less use in a landscape where all professions can use melee weapons to great effect. However the way in which Spirit weapons often aided allies was through life stealing. Something the necromancer would be more than happy to gain more of or share with others.

• Healing: The Ritualist was a healing profession. To ignore this fact is to ignore the original lure to the profession in the first place. Without this in the elite spec we can’t have a ritualist. It wouldn’t be a ritualist if it couldn’t heal allies. This is where the necromancer comes in once again. Much of what the ritualist wants to do as a healer the necromancer does part of it. Its Blood magic line could be modified slightly to apply vampiric to any summoned creature while things like Transfusion or life from death functions like the healing urns of GW past. The necromancer seems to have been designed with some healing in mind. With traits like transfusion, well of blood, Signet of Vampirism its not a stretch to imagine the healer role to eventually be past to the necromancer. And what better way to push that than with Ritualist?

• Summoning/Minions: This last point is about minions. One feature of the ritualist that made it really shine in GW1 was the fact that it thrived on the dual profession system. The ritualist gained so much advantage from this that it sparked multiple unique builds, one such popular build was the Minion bomber. Although minion bombers have existed in the game before ritualist showed up the ritualist added a spin to it that put it on a whole new level. Their ability explosive growth and others like it made them a formidable summoner that could compete with necromancer’s for the MM spot often reserved in GW1. One of the most interesting builds out there, This could Push necromancer’s Minion builds back on the map in a unique way.

One of the earliest speculations about the first elite spec the necromancer could get was an old favorite from GW1 known as the ritualist. Back when heart of thorns was announced Arena net teased that a well known hero in GW2 would become the necromancer’s first elite spec. Thus the speculation began. The clues all pointed to her being a ritualist with her communing with spirits to binding her sister’s soul to her greatsword. Her heritage and and coloration even made subtle hints in this direction. Sadly, this wasn’t the case. We got reaper instead. A spec closer in design to the Dervish from GW1 rather than the ritualist.

However, I’d still like to make the case for the necromancer eventually getting the ritualist. As the necromancer is the best fit both mechanically and thematically to fill that niche that neither the Revenant nor Engineer could ever fill in flavor and mechanics respectively.

For that we’ll be looking at the flavor, lore and mechanics to determine what design space it can fill for the necromancer and why it fits.

Flavor

The Ritualist profession in GW1 were spirit summoners who used a form of dance to lure spirits to our world in order for them to fight their battles. The ritualist would also call on powers of their ancestors as well as infuse weapons with spiritual energies. They where known to subvert the cost of powerful spells by putting that burden on their spirits as opposed to suffering it themselves and their indifference towards spirits or outright antagonism of the spirits lead them to enslave them. To assume that the Ritualist was the “Good” side of the summoners of the undead in comparison to the necromancer was a gross misunderstanding of what they actually did. Although necromancer’s have been known to summon spirits and force them to aid them, the Ritualist made it their own and really specialized in this form of undead manipulation.

Lore

According to what we currently know about the profession the ritualist has fallen out of favor among the races. Spirit summoning isn’t as potent as the more magic based summoning that the necromancer provides so its teachings and culture have been absorbed by the other professions.
Although it is unlikely that the ritualist’s teaching would fall entirely out of favor in Cantha, it is likely that they would adopt magics from the profession that is best suited for them. Necromancy. This might have been a tough Pill to swallow though since necromancers and ritualists didn’t get along in the the time line of GW1. Their rivalry seemed to be one of semantics rather than any real difference between them. This was probably due to the fact that culturally, they filled much of the same role. in Present time Tyria much, if not all, the duties that the Ritualist filled are being filled by necromancers.

Dadnir.5038:

Traits :
Minor :
- The first represent a malignant shadow.
- The second hint toward the ability to have 2 shadows alongside yourself.
- The third have something to do with… poison (I said that it would be subjective)

The first one is our new mechanic. Which the leak some months back stated it was sandshroud. Which is still possible though something to do with phantoms isn’t off the table.
The second one is strange. I… I think its a support trait. I don’t know why, but I think it has something to do with some form of shroud support.
Third? Looks like blood. Blood washes blood… Sorry, random thought… um. Ignore that last one.

Dadnir.5038:

Major :
- first major is the torch trait
- second major look like a seryngue on a cross. Poison on crit!
- third major seem to have something to do with the malignant spirit
- forth major look like an aura (let me dream please). Reduce surrounding foe movment speed by 25%.
- fifth trait is definitely another poison related trait.
- sixth trait proc a tic of the heal skill.
- seventh trait have something to do with time, probably something related to slow.
- eigthth trait is another malignant spirit trait
- ninth trait give the feeling of someone shouting “toward infinity and beyond”

These will be more difficult to place, I’d not too firm on anything though since the torch one is a adept my thought is that its probably “Torch Skills have 50% increased condi duration.” would be my guess which would make the trait great. Far better than Soul eater….
Second one is likely the skill trait. Looks almost like something used for hexing or cursing… Hmm.
I’ll get back to you on the rest of them. I have to think on it a bit more.

Dadnir.5038:

Shroud :
- Because I’m a jerk, I suppose that plague have been removed because scourge shroud AA is a slow aoe skill that do low damage and apply a short condition on hit.

Not likely. Arena net want us to to make a shroud build that turtles for a good duration on our condi builds. A slow AOE wouldn’t really aid that. A chain skill that causes something like bleeding > bleeding > burning is more likely in my opinion. This puts it as an alternative to scepter and with Dhuumfire it could surpass its DPS which it would need to do if arena net wants us to have a shroud based condi build.

Dadnir.5038:

So after listing all of this here is what I deduce (again that’s totally subjective) :
- A poison spec!
- The inbuilt ability to have up to 2 new minions fighting alongside us. Mesmer like clone?
- Slow on necromancer. I know that’s unlikely but it fit.

Poison would be nice, though I think poison and burning are a heavy focus on this spec. Having 2 minions along side? I’m skeptical about that since the majority of the line doesn’t seem conducive to a minion spec.

My hope is that this spec is offensive support. one idea that came to my mind was the ability to coat downed allies in a sort of false shroud that allows them protection and gives them the chance to keep fighting. Strange I know, but would be interesting in a supportive style.

Alright, time to respond to all of this speculation. Lets see where I agree and where I don’t. So lets get going. Just so you know, This is from my perspective on what I think it might suggest so lets get started.

Dadnir.5038:

- The picture strongly suggest… A shoulder equipment!
- Weapon should be torch

Not refutable. The torch is a sure thing. However one thing I’m going to point out with the image is that there are more than once piece of armor that the asura is wearing that we haven’t seen before. The leggings have chains on them which isn’t something any armor set in the game currently has to my knowledge. However, I’ll go one further, looking at other leaks we see that there seems to be multiple armor pieces that each of the elite specs are wearing that do not currently exist. Since Anet has more time to introduce content it could be possible that each elite spec has a specific armor collection. THough this is speculation and it could be that the unknown armor pieces in each of these images belong to new armors not related to the elite specs.

Dadnir.5038:

- The healing skill seem to be an aoe wide skill I’d bet on a channelled skill that heal and drain life force.

Unlikely. The necromancer already has a life stealing heal skill and already has a life force heal skill. Signet of Vampirism and “Your soul is mine!” respectively. This one was a bit of a tricky one for me to speculate on, but I think I have the answer. I don’t think its a channel personally, But rather a heal that also cause AOE Fear. It fits within the realm of a defensive area that necromancers could use. Interrupt someone while healing so that they can’t easily strike you while healing. It fits and would be another piece for a terrormancer build which Arena net have wanted to push for a while now.

Dadnir.5038:

- The second skill seem to be related to movment speed. I’ll follow a hunch and say that it’s a skill that apply slow on a foe.

I had a prediction a while back that scourge would obtain the skill Savannah Heat. And the image could suggest scorching winds. However I’m not convinced that it is Savannah heat though I think slow might be likely. Strangely though slow as an effect was removed from the necromancer’s kit in the transition from GW1 to GW2, and I’m skeptical that we’ll ever get it back… Like how we never got confusion back….

Dadnir.5038:

- The third skill remind me of oppressive gave in GW. Poison and weakness.

Reminds me of Defile Flesh, contagion or plague touch. Hmm. I think the conditions you’ve suggested fit. However It most certainly is a touch since the hand is there.

Dadnir.5038:

- The forth skill obviously summon something, let’s go with the wall of hand that hinder the foes that try to pass through.

Its a trope in Egyptian horror movies that hands of mummies will pop out of the ground to drag some unsuspecting victim under the sands. Would Arena net do something like that? i don’t know, but that’s what it reminds me of.

Dadnir.5038:

- The fifth skill look like a viper, another poison skill

Looks kinda like the skill Entangling Asp. An assassin skill that caused poison on knockdown. Though I doubt it’ll function like that poison is a sure thing though.

Dadnir.5038:

- The last skill could represent a bacteria (did I say another poison skill?)

This one is hard to place for me as well. I want to say poison heart, but I think it might actually be some sort of elite support skill… Something to do with infusing conditions? ugh…

Ithilwen.1529:

There already is one of these. It’s a focus, the “Bloodseeker.” It’s kind of a small Bloodstone Shard, similar to the ones at the end of Arah P4.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bloodseeker

that’s not even remotely the same thing.

For those curious where I got the inspiration from.

Psientist.6437:

The theme is well thought out and presented. However, the studio has never shown realistic bleeding or blood. Perhaps life force instead of blood? I am not sure how life force would be visualized.

Thanks. That’s pretty good for me since I’m half asleep. XD

As for blood. Well, it doesn’t have to be like crimson red or anything. It could be a red glow in the vines moving into your arm. And its not like GW2 has no blood. It does have a bit, some necromancer animations as well as skills that cause bleeding have been shown to have a bit of a red blood animation to them. It is a Teen game so they could get away with it without a problem. I wouldn’t expect them to make a blood fountain.

I’m half asleep so sorry for such a weird title topic… But here it goes. When thinking about what arena net could do with its next Legendary dagger I started to wonder what direction they could go with it. We don’t have a dagger themed for thief, necromancer or ranger so I started thinking about what it could be. Now this is just wishful thinking on my part so take my idea with a grain of salt. It probably is not this.

In Horror its a common trope to have some sort of demonic dagger that requires blood in order to work correctly, or something similar. And in some cases, the dagger directly takes that blood from its user. Sometimes having spines built into the handle so that the user bleeds no matter what. My Thought was that this would make a perfect legendary weapon as something that both assassins and dark priests have used before.

The Direct inspiration I see from this is from a little game I would be surprised if people working at Anet didn’t play it at least a few dozen times. betrayal at house on the hill. In this game there is an Item that fits this description called the blood dagger that digs into the user’s blood stream to fuel it. My thoughts instantly went to GW2 design in how this could be an amazing legendary with vines crawling up your arm and penetrating into it slowly turning a glowing red as the dagger comes alive in the user’s hand. With a trail of sanguine steps. Of course I think that it should look a bit different for sylvari. Since Sylvari have gold blood the dagger should be a gold color as opposed to red since their blood isn’t red. I don’t know if that would be feasible so I wouldn’t be upset if it was still red.

So um… Yeah.. that’s my idea for a legendary dagger in a nut shell.. Um.. What do you guys think?

Lahmia.2193:

Dawdler.8521:

Lily.1935:

Its foreshadowing I’d assume. There might be a self bleed theme on the new elite spec… Sounds strange, but its on theme. Power at any cost!

Are you trying to say… that the necro doesnt have a selfbleeding/poisoning/weakness theme?

I forgot that Dark Pact was actually a Corruption skill.

Don’t look at it as a corruption. Look at Life Syphon. We don’t have other skills that benefit form having conditions on us. Sure transfers can be used with them, but that’s not what condi transfer skill’s primary objective is. I’m talking about forshadowing of more skill modifiers through self inflicted conditions. Like how We were giving a tone of chill right before the reaper was revealed and we weren’t sure why. Its foreshadowing.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

It is interesting, though, because you can cast Epidemic, and then stack a few more conditions on and have those new conditions also spread.

I’ve noticed that. Its not as bad a trade off as I initially assumed. Though it is still a bit weaker.

Maethendias.1305:

i cant be the only one who totally doesnt understand how condi self bleed is on a powerweapon

like that so does not make any freaking sense….does it?
yes, before you tell me "im an idiot for not knowing how to throw condis around…. " thats not what im saying here. (i actually run condi all the time lel)

dagger main was always a power weapon, and dagger off was condi. if i want to go condi reaper/necro, and throw conditions around like a madmann, i take dagger OFF, not main…
if i want(ed) to play a power shroud build, i take dagger in my main hand…

and now im constantly applying annoying self bleed because i use dagger 3? why? just because of flavour? i would love to see the reasoning behind that… cause i certainly cant wrap my head around this…. its like they now want you to use both daggers, without exception.
that might be a good thing…. (although dagger off hand was used pretty often anyways, if im not mistaken, and didnt really need more incentive to be taken, hell, necro has a whole skilltree for that sole reason) but i dont worry about condis if im sitting in my shroud anyways, no?

but maybe its really just because of flavour… maybe i can only blame my musclememory for hurting myself over and over now…

…. BUT how could they tell me its “flavour” WHEN THEY GOT RID OF THE SLICE SOUND ??

Its foreshadowing I’d assume. There might be a self bleed theme on the new elite spec… Sounds strange, but its on theme. Power at any cost!

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

If the initial target is dead, of course it will fail to copy any conditions.

If they are alive, check to make sure they’re not cleansing. I have yet to see it fail to copy if the original target has any conditions upon projectile impact.

What Drarnor Said. It takes some getting used to but once you get the hang of it its not that big of a deal. Although its not as useful while roaming in PvE anymore.. Which is kinda sad. But oh well.

CCLegion.5936:

As for the healing and lifestealing bit, necro needs the skills to operate in a support role first. Right now, the only thing Blood really changes is Shroud 4, due to transfusion. Outside of that, you are still a necro, doing necro things, but you provide some passive sustain to your group. I’d also argue that Blood Bond needs a change to how it works. Maybe “Allies steal life from targets suffering from your bleeds” because right now, it has the same issue that Putrid Defense has in that most builds can barely use it. Even if you get the bleeds, which is possible with condition transfer, you can’t control where the trait itself goes. Would also mean that we finally have a healing option in the adept tier.

I’d argue that the life stealing change I’ve suggested is a long time coming. As for external use for it? Well, life syphon, Signet of Locus, Signet of Vampirism would be impacted by this change. Not to mention Soul Eater from Reaper. WIth external support we do actually have a bit, the aforementioned Signet of Vampirism but also well of blood, Blood is power, well of power, Signet of Undeath, Mark of blood, Reaper’s Touch, Spectral Wall and Lich Form. How good each of these are is debatable to not that good. But that’s more an argument that I should have included them in my suggestions, which I can agree with. I should have.

CCLegion.5936:

The changes to SR’s master tier would not improving trait diversity much, I feel. Spectral Mastery is good but only when you are already taking a couple spectrals. Having both it, double armor and full Vital Persistence might also be a bit much.
Cultist’s Fervour is a neat idea but I’d rather see this as an F2 for an elite spec.

You think so? I’m not so convinced by that. But I’m willing to listen to why. Plus with Cultist’s Fervour competing with it I feel it honestly gives you an extremely interesting choice between the two for power. Do I take the reduced cool downs but burn through my shroud much quicker, sacrificing defenses or do I take Spectral mastery and sustain better? I feel that’s a really meaningful choice to make. And I still feel that if a terror build ever shows back up this change will need to happen otherwise Vital Persistence is still just going to outshine it.

I feel the issue here is more with the fact that WvW balance requires very different ideas than PvE or even PvP when we’re talking about the necromancer. And I honestly don’t have much experience with WvW since it gives me a headache.

CCLegion.5936:

Alright, gonna take a look at some of your solutions from a WvW perspective.
I’d argue your version of Soul Comprehension should be baseline. What could be done with SC is make it an effect similar to Signet of Undeath, turning it into passive LF generation in addition to its current effect, which would be kept purely for flavour reasons.

I’m glad you like the idea and I think you have a point for part of it. The summoned creatures part. However the life force gain from death’s while in shroud is a unique enough ability that I’d still argue that it should be a unique feature for death magic. Now I mentioned after the fact that mesmer clones shouldn’t fuel this because of how difficult of a time mesmer’s would have fighting necromancer’s with a change like this.

CCLegion.5936:

Beyond the veil is strong enough as is. It gives you protection when you are most vulnerable, right as you leave shroud. Death is also a personal survivability line and throwing in a bit of support seems weird to me.

This might be more along my desire to support as a necromancer since I’ve been craving that style of game play ever since I made the transition over from GW1 to GW2. I’ll admit my bias here.

CCLegion.5936:

Putrid Defense does not need increased poison duration, it needs a way to reliably trigger on weapons outside of scepter and staff. MH axe, GS, dagger, focus and warhorn can’t actually utilize it without either using CPC or getting a regen corrupt.

I’d disagree. It wouldn’t compare to Shrouded removal even with my changes if it didn’t provide something else. As for support, I did create more internal support for this and thought about other aspects of the specialization where it could work. Poison is common enough that I feel its justified with the internal and external synergy that’s there and suggested.

Death as an attribute in GW1 was also known for 2 things, primarily. Minions, its condition game. Discordway was a famous build in GW1 and this was the attribute that allowed access to GW1’s most annoying condition. Disease. Poison was also rampant in Death so pushing a poison theme is absolutely fitting for this trait line.

CCLegion.5936:

Your variant of Shrouded Removal would basically make Reaper immune to condition builds when fighting in any kind of group. Suffer and Plague Signet would remove even the strongest condi applications and the latter can go down to around 13s CD. Stray condis inbetween cooldowns can easily be handled by either group cleanses or you pressing any of your other buttons.

Perhaps one condition than? I’m personally not too keen on this trait as is if we were to get utility in shroud. I feel it would be too strong with the utility it would gain. I’m open for suggestions.

CCLegion.5936:

Deadly Strength removal kills the Master tier of Death for power builds.

Not actually a concern of mine. Deadly strength isn’t good anyway and pushing power in Death magic was something that always felt off. Again, As a GW1 vet death was always about that condition game and minion game. So pushing power to me feels wrong. If its that big of a deal, there is always the boring option of having toughness increase power and condition damage based on toughness. But those passive stat increases outside of minors always feel gross to me.

Unholy Sanctuary would be better off with a new effect altogether. How about this, gain health whenever you gain life force. When struck while below 50% health, reset the cooldown on shroud. 20s ICD on the second effect.

Why? With Vampiric Signet, Signet of Locus, Blood fiend along with blood magic, my changes would bring the minor loss in healing you’d take from Unholy Sanctuary would be well made up for from your utility. Having a way to regenerate life force Would be more useful. And would be more on point for death magic than a strange out of place trait that gives healing to yourself.

squallaus.8321:

Except lily also keep claiming minions are bad and condition removal is a non issue. Both of which are untrue. Then he goes on about how minions are not suppose to be for group support and tank build. BS. Minions boost both areas. Never mind death magic, blood magic is equality pathetic without minions. The supposed healing/sustain from blood magic simply isn’t good enough without minions assistance. Death magic having bad traits was never a contention. But the good ones are really good.

Said Minions were not in a good spot. And Shrouded removal was superfluous.

Also…. um… Lily is a girl’s name…

Anchoku.8142:

I realize Epidemic does not buff allies or heal and it does do amazing damage to add’s so it certainly looks like a dps skill.

However, unlike Hundred Blades and Meteor Shower, Epidemic does zero damage (or anything else) to the target, often a boss.

Epi’s main use in group PvE is trash mob suppression. For that reason, I place Epidemic in a defensive utility class.

In WvW, Epidemic has a dual function as trash mob suppression and zerg condi pressure, which are quite different.

Suppression is a control aspect. I’d just like to point that out, although I must make a note that This Forum post isn’t about epidemic so if we can get on topic that’d be nice. I’d like to know specifics about what your guys’s thoughts are on the suggestions.

squallaus.8321:

Even though minions aren’t as good atm, in combination with death magic + blood magic, it still makes for a better rounded Tank build with party support than soul reaping + any other combination.

No… No it isn’t. Blood magic is were you get all the support from. Death does nothing for your support. And if you are so concerned about conditions, I’ve mentioned multiple times that Revenant does it far better than we do. Demon stance. But we don’t see Revenants in high end content. Why? Why than would we seen necromancers over revenants in high end content? Well, its actually because of the necromancer’s condition build. Not because of their support. Many players opt to not take any support, favoring Curses, Soul reaping and reaper. Death only came into the equation during that short window of time when Minions were good.

But I don’t want Death to be one note. And that was One of the points I was making in this Forum post. Death is a one note specialization. You don’t even argue that it isn’t. You can’t, you just double down on being wrong about everything.

squallaus.8321:

oh look who can’t dodge now? did I read that right? you get killed by stuns a lot? By the sound of things you died before the conditions kicks in. Maybe you are right in some aspects. For players that drop quickly like you during clutch moments maybe they really don’t need excellent condi cleanse provided by Death Magic. They’d be dead before they get to feel the hurt from the conditions.

Never said a lot. Also the enemies that tend to stun a lot don’t tend to use very many conditions. From what I’ve noticed its raw damage. Aka, you want to be able to soak damage, not worry about a few piddly conditions.

Also, no you didn’t read that right. Saying that its more of a problem isn’t saying that its a major problem. Don’t misconstrue my words.

Clutch moments? I’ve had a few, mostly on classes I’m less familiar with, such as engineer. Clutch on my necromancer though? As rare as a Precursor drop.

I should also point out that my primary roaming build on necromancer has quite a bit of condi cleans on it. Not for fear of the condis that foes apply to me, but because I apply conditions to myself. And the immobilization and Chill is annoying, but if those ever become a problem I can just take Relentless Pursuit… I don’t need to dedicate an entire trait line to get one trait. I can just change one trait around on a specialization I already use.

squallaus.8321:

YES YOU ARE out of touch with the different areas of the game in the PVE environment. You vastly underestimate the amount of conditions that are inflicted on players.

You keep claiming I’m out of touch with the game when you’ve never given an example of how. I play all aspects of PvE, not just Fractals and Raids. (Which btw, Fractals has some of the hardest hitting conditions in the game and I still don’t need to rely on death.)

squallaus.8321:

All along I was talking about PVE. You are the one that has is misconstrued.

If that’s the case you are extremely bad at the game. Open world conditions are low damage most the time and the conditions that can actually hurt you(Aka in the living world and occasionally HoT maps) are few and far between. Not only that you don’t need to cleans them every 3 seconds if you’re an active and mobile player. And for the ones that do hit you hard they generally are extremely short duration.

squallaus.8321:

Your invalid bashing of Death Magic did not go unnoticed hence either the corrections from me that followed.

You didn’t correct anything, you showed your ignorance about how grouping works in the high end game modes I was talking about. And its not invalid if the forum post WAS ABOUT THAT IN THE FIRST PLACE! Learn to read, you just keep doubling down on being wrong. Stop it.

squallaus.8321:

That maybe true,

FINALLY! I’m getting somewhere. Yes, it is true. This is the point of the post. See, I see that you are struggling to keep to your own side. If you actually read the post you wouldn’t need to keep doubling down on being wrong. Just admit that you are wrong and lets move on. I hope this is a lesson for you to actually read the topic of discussion before making assumptions.

squallaus.8321:

You’re the one that is being ignorant here.

Coming from the guy who can’t read that’s laughable.

squallaus.8321:

No you don’t get to selectively choose what you personally like or dislike, discard it, then bash that specialization it is lacking or weak because you choose to ignore minions. Not over showed by others at all. I bet you the HP saved from the rapid condi cleansing provided by death magic out weights the extra health gained by transfusion. The only thing transfusion is good for is the teleport rez feature during clutch moments in 100CM runs. It is also good for trolling friends by teleporting them into the enemy while they are being rezzed.

Condition application in PvE is most frequently done in bursts. While you are slowly pulling conditions every 3 seconds a revenant could just pull all of the conditions onto herself and call it a day. And! she can repeat it plus gain resistance. Rapid? a single condition every 3 seconds is not rapid.(Oh and not to mention she gives resistance to allies…. But lets ignore that little fact, while your allies take unnecessary damage when they could have been given resistance.)

I actually excluded minions from this equation because they are not designed with supporting your allies in mind, nor were they designed with tanking in mind. Minions are for your personal benefit. They only indirectly benefit allies, much like dealing more DPS indirectly benefits allies. But if you actually read the post you’d have known that rather than being confused about it. You seem to have just skimmed the topic and were deeply and personally offended by what I posted without understanding the context. Which is why I say you can’t seem to read. Because you didn’t.

Who trolls people with transfusion? You must have garbage friends. Since I’ve always used it to pull allies out of DPS or in our last Sabetha kill, on the opposite side of the fire wall when a few people were downed. Transfusion is better support because the healers of the group, although they can heal can’t always save someone without risking their own skin.

Although I will admit to one mistake I’ve made. Your build isn’t a Niche. I’m sorry, that implies it has some use. I’m terribly sorry. Its a gimmick build. Not actually useful.

squallaus.8321:

Oh you are absolutely out of touch. You absolutely underestimate the amount of conditions the players receive across the different areas of the game because you are too focused on T4s and raid. Just as you underestimate how good some of the traits are in death magic.

Actually… No no I’m not. I specifically mentioned PvE… Hell I’ll quote myself. Since you can only read in small chunks it seams. THIS HAS BEEN MY FOCUS FROM THE START! READ THE FREAKIN INTRO!

Lily.1935:

INow this is coming from a PvE perspective and you’re welcome to chime in on PvP and WvW in this post, however due note that this is going to be mostly about PvE and not the other game types.

squallaus.8321:

While some people may take the opportunity to laugh at a tank build that does not use soul reaping because it does not conform to the norm, it does not distract from the fact that it has much better coverage to serve the purpose of Tanking and party Support than Soul Reaping + any other combination can offer. Whether this is as good as other classes is again besides the point.

Wrong! This is the entire point! Read the intro.

Its hard to argue that there are just superior professions in both these categories when talking about necromancer.

First Line right there… Its is the point. The fact that you’ve blatantly ignored this over and over again shows your serious lack of reading skills.

squallaus.8321:

Oh yes that darling trait that does not work well with 99% of the builds suddenly looks absolutely fantastic due to the condi cleansing the death magic specialization offers by having minions and by entering shroud. Your oversight however can be forgiven due to the bizarre and wonderful concept of trait synergy that exist in this game that we all play and love.

And yet it over shadows other traits that would be wanted for the same builds. But I also specifically excluded the minions from the equation in my initial post too. Because those traits are actually good and I’ve already made a post about minion changes. But those are not trait changes. And I’ve dedicated a lot of time to all of these ideas..

Lily.1935:

Death magic: I think this trait line on its own is a big enough issue that it should get its own section. The most useful traits in Death magic are for minions and since minions aren’t that good at the moment its become fairly forgotten. Death magic seems to lack real identity outside of its minions and while it does seem to have the designated defense role in the Necromancer’s specialization lines, it fails in this catagory especially when compared to soul reaping which just provides greater sustain.

From the very first post. I specifically excluded minions from these suggestions. So your confusion for that is inexcusable… Read the first posts. Seriously…

squallaus.8321:

If utility in shroud were to happen I would probably agree with you that soul reaping is better for tanking because condition cleansing while inside of shroud will no longer be an issue even without death magic.

Its better than Death now. Because of Foot in the Grave and its life force generation. Conditions? Those rarely kill me. (In fact they almost never do. Even with Agony.) But you know what does end up killing me the most often since the game’s launch? Stuns! An area in the game with a high number of outgoing conditions? Pfff… I’ll just use the build I run around with now and Solo it… Hell, I used to solo run people through fractals on my necromancer for fun. (spoilers, I never used death magic there either.) However, if I’m in an area with a high level of Stuns? Ho boy, that does concern me, I’ll change my build for that.

PS. I do actually have a tank necromancer. I have two necros. My Main who uses full ascended Viper’s and full ascended berserkers. And I have my secondary necro who uses Valkyrie. Because, you know… Blighter’s boon and decimate defenses is a thing. And the conditions I’m most concerned about are already taken care of by one of the reaper’s minors. Damaging conditions? Not much of a concern considering I have Consume condition and a massive health pool.

squallaus.8321:

Being in shroud is only part of the defense. Until the necromancer is dead his defense does not end. It does not end when the necromancer exits shroud. Putting everything to extend shroud longevity does not mean it will make the best Tank build, especially when you neglect the necromancers strongest condition cleansing specialization that is the death magic. Whether Anet “intended” for the soul reaping specialization to be a necessity when building the best Tank build for the necromancer or not, is really, AGAIN besides the point. Because that is not what is actually happening. Soul reaping on its own certainly look very strong trait line, but as it turns out it does not make the best Tank build because of better trait synergy in the other specializations when you consider them in their entirety.

You may have been playing the game for a long time, but you certainly sound out of touch with what players experience in the game when it comes to conditions.

You don’t even play raids or Fractals. You said it yourself. I do both content, T4 fractals and our guild has been moving through raids. Out of Touch? No! I’m just better at the game than you, obviously.

The point of this Forum post from the start was to point out shortcomings in the Necromancer’s design, specifically in these areas. It was never to say tanking is impossible on a necromancer(it isn’t) or that the necromancer has no support(they have a bit.) It was always about its comparison to other classes and opening up new options a diversity in the way Necromancers are expected to play. If I went into a raid with your build, they’d laugh at me and instantly kick me from the group even with Full ascended gear.

I want more options. I Don’t always want to run DPS I want to be able to Run Support or to run as the tank. And I want to be kitten good at doing it! If I’m running the build and I’m just sub par especially compared to what I could be doing on a Guardian, Mesmer or Ranger I’ll run those instead. But my favorite profession from both GW1 and GW2 is necromancer. I know what builds are Viable in High end content for Necromancer because I run them. I know what is sub optimal because I’ve tested them.

I think with these changes that I’ve suggested the necromancer could be a pretty Baller tank with something like Clerics gear(Which btw I’ve tried a clerics necromancer before in the past. Spoilers it wasn’t good…).

The only change I’ve suggested that, if you actually read my initial posts, you might have a problem with is the change to your darling trait that you worship for some reason. However, I’ve justified my suggestion with a Massive change. UTILITY IN SHROUD! You wouldn’t need Shrouded removal in its old form with a full bar of utility skills. The defensive prowess alone that gives the player is Far better than anything Shrouded removal could give. Hell, with the changes I’ve suggested that minor loss from shrouded removal is MORE than made up for by utility.

The one to Rule.2593:

Lily.1935:

Blackagar.1052:

Personally. I hate any kind of “zerg” whether than be people or minions, the idea of throwing a trillion rats at my enemy and they die is annoying to me. I’d rather have a couple decent pets that require some activity to control with some passive ease as far as being “minion master goes”.

If you don’t like that play a Ranger! Minions are supposed to be disposable and rather weak on their own.

Let’s not pretend ranger pets are used for anything more than Cc and fury uptime. I do agree though that minions should be about quantity over quality. However, minion builds in this game have been lack luster since release. I miss mechanics from guild wars 1 where Necro was so perfect. Exploiting corpses was so cool. Also skills like veratas sacrifice are what Necro needs. Sacrifice your own HP to heal minions. This fixed time limit is crap. We need ways to manage them ourselves

The minions in GW1 where something special. And GW2 will never have minions like that. It pains me to say that, but its true. I’ve given up on that idea a long time ago. Right now I’m just trying to salvage at least something that was good about them.

squallaus.8321:

Lily.1935:

Not Certain traits being “Niche” traits being just outright BAD! Soul Comprehension, Deadly Strength, Corrupter’s Fervor, and Unholy Sanctuary are bad traits. Not Niche. I’m saying your build is niche because you are intentionally going against the mold in spite of what has been proven to be effective. Your build is niche because you are intentionally gimping yourself to run it. And we’ve already discussed this. Conditions in PvE are rare, or their application is so rapid that 1 ever 3 seconds is actually too slow.

Soul reaping doesn’t have bad traits. In fact, all of its traits are really good. Except Vital Persistence, which is just a cut way above the rest in the master tier. Not that the other’s are bad. You have been arguing that Death is good because of one decent trait rather than actually looking at the specialization as a whole and seeing it for its obvious flaws.

It doesn’t matter if death magic has bad traits that’s hardly the point. The good traits in combination with blood magic allows for a build that is more Tank than soul reaping + any other combination. The premise that necro HAS to tank in shroud is largely misguided.

I use what works not just because what other people tell me will work or what people think what is not niche. Again and again you fail to take into account the combination of traits that is necessary to see the bigger picture. And now you sound like you don’t even know how the traits in death magic even work. Theres no conditions in pve? really? have u ever ran a dungeon before? have u ever been to a HoT map before ? You are starting to sound more and more kittened by the minute. Maybe you should start running your necro without druids around to cleanse conditions for you for a change. By the sound of things, it is becoming more and more clear that you are way to used to raid set up where other people cleanse conditions for you and is totally disillusioned at what most players will actually experience in game.

You are mistaken. to tank as a necromancer absolutely is to use Shroud. Shroud is our primary life line. It is our defenses almost in its entirety. It was designed to be that way. I’m not missing anything. Its what the Developers of the game actually tell us its for… Shroud is the reason we don’t have stealth, invulnerability, blocks, evade skills and for the longest time until recently, projectile blocks. This isn’t something I made up it was Anet’s intention for the mechanic. You yourself are trying to turtle in shroud so the only think I can say to your idea is that you are a hypocrite.

Wow… You assume I’m not that good at the game? Really? After I’ve been telling you that all the condi cleans you’ve been running is honestly superfluous you think I need a Druid with me at all times? Dude, I’ve been running Necromancer main since GW1. And I continued to run necromancer in GW2. Hell, most of my career as a necromancer I’ve run in Glass armor such as Berserkers, Sinisters and Vipers. Although I’ve Dabbled in other defensive sets and experimented with Death(And because I experiment so much that’s why I know death isn’t good unless you’re running minions and even then minions are seriously lacking right now). Which is why I know its not good.

But.. I’m honestly tired of talking with you because its become abundantly clear to me that you didn’t even read the full length of any of my posts. And now you’re just doubling down on your position in the face of being demonstrably wrong again and again instead of actually admitting you didn’t read the whole thing…

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

…have you even used Unholy Sanctuary? It doesn’t force you into Shroud any more often than you would be in it otherwise. Unless you would go down, of course, but I’d rather be in Shroud than on my back.

It needs a numbers buff, but the functionality is excellent already.

I have used Unholy Sanctuary before. And I have good enough reaction time to damage that I don’t need the hand holding from the trait. I understand when I’m taking too much damage I use my defenses. However, One of the suggestions I made up there was to buff US to grant life force regen while in shroud if your health was below 25%. This would actually make me seriously consider the trait. Especially if I could pair it with a trait that created a corrosive poison cloud on entering it. That would be great defense. As it stands now, its honestly not good…. But then again.. You guys do seem to struggle with reading my suggestions since you guys haven’t once talked about any specific ones..

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Lily.1935:

Soul reaping doesn’t have bad traits. In fact, all of its traits are really good.

Fear of Death, anyone?

I would argue that Unholy Sanctuary and Corrupter’s Fervor are still good traits, but Unholy Sanctuary needs a numbers buff and the two shouldn’t be competing. I think if you had a decent replacement for Soul Comprehension and you could take Shrouded Removal, Unholy Sanctuary, and Corrupter’s Fervor, you would have a decent defensive traitline.

Fear of death isn’t a bad trait. Its just compared to an Amazing trait in Vital Persistence which is actually just too good to pass up in comparison. Fear of Death’s value will increase if the necromancer gets more access to fear. Without a decent number of fear skills its not that useful, not because its effect is bad. Just that it doesn’t have the support.

Corrupter’s Fervor is fine, but it doesn’t have the support in the trait line to benefit from it and in theory its great, in practice not so much.. I’ve done testing with it and its lack luster.

As for Unholy Sanctuary is actually just bad. In comparison I’d take death nova over it even if “Rise” was my only minion producing skill. Its just a bad trait that’s healing is negligible at best and its forcing you into shroud is more disruptive than constructive to necromancer play. And since it doesn’t stun break (Like foot in the grave does) it doesn’t even have that internal synergy to protect you from controlling effects. So no, Sanctuary is just bad.

squallaus.8321:

lol epidemic uses your team members conditions too for the spreading! in effect, you are helping your team members do damage. Just that your team members don’t get to see the values pop up afterwards. But atleast you are using your team members conditions to kill the mobs faster, therefore supporting the team. And those conditions are scaled to your condition dmg. Too bad there is a 25 stack cap though. But the point is, Meteor Shower on the other hand does not use your allies condition to dmg the enemy.

Epidemic isn’t a support skill. Looking at the 3 pillars of the Damage, Support and Control Epidemic is Damage+Control. Not support.

squallaus.8321:

I can see that all you can do is just mechanically compare trait to trait from 1 specialization to another without considering the overall coverage provided by all specializations used in different builds and then claim 1 trait line is shi$ compared to another. This is an extremely narrow minded view to compare between builds.

While it is true soul reaping lets the necromancer stay in shroud for longer and generate life force faster, but without condi cleanse that is readily found in death magic, the benefit of being able to stay in shroud for longer is offsetted by the inability to condi cleanse, effectively forcing you to get out of shroud earlier than expected. Massively reducing the effectiveness of the soul reaping trait line. Further more, while death magic on it own it not great, but when paired with blood magic means the “niche” trait unholy martyr can now be taken safely without worrying about condi cleanse, effectively making the combination on-par with vital persistence in the soul reaping specialization.

How does that famous saying go again? “The whole is greater than the sum of it’s individual parts.” Quite clearing you fail to see the bigger picture and fail to consider the different builds in their entirety because of your biases towards certain traits being “niche”.

Not Certain traits being “Niche” traits being just outright BAD! Soul Comprehension, Deadly Strength, Corrupter’s Fervor, and Unholy Sanctuary are bad traits. Not Niche. I’m saying your build is niche because you are intentionally going against the mold in spite of what has been proven to be effective. Your build is niche because you are intentionally gimping yourself to run it. And we’ve already discussed this. Conditions in PvE are rare, or their application is so rapid that 1 ever 3 seconds is actually too slow.

Soul reaping doesn’t have bad traits. In fact, all of its traits are really good. Except Vital Persistence, which is just a cut way above the rest in the master tier. Not that the other’s are bad. You have been arguing that Death is good because of one decent trait rather than actually looking at the specialization as a whole and seeing it for its obvious flaws.

squallaus.8321:

snip

This is where we get to the biggest problem with soul reaping. Vital Persistence. To argue that Death provides anything even remotely comparable in defense to this trait is laughable at best. a 50% decay reduction provides you with a longer lasting shroud which means you effectively have more “health” to play with while in shroud. that 15% skill recharge means that your fears, blinds and chills are off cool down quicker that have major implications for your active defenses and offenses.

Corrupter’s Fervor. This trait is nice in concept the the specialization doesn’t do much to support this style of play. I feel that this could be pretty good if it had the right support around it, but from the bottom up it just doesn’t. When comparing this to something like Foot in the grave its just clear that FitG can and often does get you out of huge strikes of damage while Corrupter’s fervor requires you to be fairly aggressive which means when you are on the back foot this is a diminishing returns trait.

Unholy Sanctuary is another problem. As anyone who is good at necromancer will tell you, the benefit it grants you is pretty negligible especially when compared to the healing Blood provides. Since the benefit of it putting you into shroud while on low health forces your to play worse than you otherwise would and it isn’t even a stunbreak.

But hey, at least you got Shrouded removal. Even though Spiteful Renewal in spite is somewhat comparable but never used…. And Relentless Pursuit reduces the duration of some of the more dangerous conditions you’ll face in PvE….

squallaus.8321:

snip

This right here tells me that you didn’t actually read my posts. Because I specifically mentioned the minion traits multiple times in how without minions, death doesn’t do what its intended to as a defensive specialization line.

Also to answer your question and I’ll scream it for you. SOUL REAPING! is far better for tanking than Death magic. Death magic has little self sustain outside of minions. And I’ve mentioned that Multiple times already.

But lets look at the traits that improve sustain and Survival. We’ll be excluding minion traits (Since my suggestions didn’t touch minions at all and was never the point of the post, but I understand you have a hard time reading so here, I’ll link you to another post I made about minions. https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/necromancer/Return-the-glory-of-Minions/first#post6587986 )

Lets see what traits that death provides for Defense and compare them with Soul reaping. You may be disappointed by this.

Armored shroud is the very first trait we see that provides 180 toughness while in shroud. Now Soul reaping actually does have a comparable trait to this. Strength of Undeath. I know it does more and its higher on the list, however I must point out that they are both minor traits so their effects can be compared to one another. The toughness gain from Armored shroud doesn’t scale up while the 15% with strength of undeath continues to scale up with your vitality granting more overall defense with tankier gear. This is especially important when consider that life force as a mechanic generates over time through percentage and not a flat number.

Next lets look at Soul Comprehension and compare it to Gluttony. Sure, it grants 20% life force on deaths, but most minions don’t provide you with life force and when foes die around you if they generate life force for you chances are Soul comprehension is superfluous. Gluttony on the other hand gives you the bonus to life force where you need it most. In combat with your skills. So daggers auto, or the many skills from greatsword will bump it up even more.

Now lets look at Shrouded removal and compare it to death’s own other trait putrid Defense. Yes, I’m comparing two death magic traits however this is to show you a very obvious poor design flaw with these minors. Shrouded removal is just superior to putrid defense. Not saying PD is bad, but its impact in comparison is negligible at best. But it could be better and serve a different purpose for a different build, but it doesn’t.

Lets look at Soul reaping’s minors for comparison. Each one has a very clear role in different builds. Soul marks grants life force and makes them unblockable which that 3% is fantastic for defense while speedy shadows will actually combo with other specializations that could provide defense or aid if you spec into that. Not only that but it reduces the cooldown of your shroud which means you have less down time where you have to be out of shroud. And since Soul reaping generates life force much faster than Death magic, that’s a good thing.

Next lets look at the master traits. Aside from Necromatic corruption Reaper’s Protection is the trait you’d want for a non-minion tank. Except it has a 60 second cool down. Deadly strength isn’t providing any defensive abilities or doing anything for you in terms of life force generation. The closest equivalent is probably last gasp in terms of function. Which, would you look at that, last gasp provides protection and grants a hefty amount of life force to boot. A 2 second aoe fear is nice and I’m not dogging on this trait but the disparity between the two is real. However, last gasp can have its recharge reduce while Reaper’s protection can’t.

squallaus.8321:

No your idea of what is not niche is actually niche since you only focus on raid where there are druids there to condi cleanse the party and ignore all other aspects of pve. death magic works extremely well as condition removal for party support and as a condition cleansing line. But by itself it cannot stand. Nor can Blood magic on its own. At some point condi dmg will get you if it was just blood magic on its own. That is why the coverage provided by all 3 specialization that you choose is important. Not just 1 line on its own.

Blood Magic does stand very well on its own. It pairs well with every single specialization the necromancer currently has. I use it with curses. I use it on my power builds(plural). It stands extremely well on its own. If you don’t take minions Death doesn’t pair well with other elite specs. Even though it tries to. Spite? No, spite would rather pair with Blood, soul reaping or even Curses. Curses? No, curses again would rather take anything else. You are arguing its strengths as a second choice but its clear that it fails as a second choice.

Also, no, Raiding builds are not niche. They are the top tier builds designed for the highest level of game play. But if we want to talk about other content, Fractals. Again in fractals still prefers Superior trait lines to Death magic. Its very clearly that if you are not taking minions it absolutely is the weakest specialization.

But lets talk open world. Well, sure your niche build works here. But everything works in open world. I use blood in open world, happily. But death? Not unless I’m goofing around with minions. But I don’t judge if a build is good or not based on its open world use. What I care about as a PvE player is how useful each specialization is in all situations. Not just open world. I want necromancer to be able to fill every single role in raids or other content. However, as it stands right now Necromancer will not have a viable healing build for at least another 2 years. … Although i hope its not that long. So opening up a very effective tanking build for this high level content is something I’d love to see. But Necromancer wont get that opportunity without good supportive options. I’ve made multiple suggestions in the past week(maybe two, time isn’t something I’m very good at…) that would strip away much of the necromancer’s biggest flaw. Its selfishness.

Dadnir.5038:

The support aspect is right on the edge of being absolutely amazing and worth taking or considering in most situations but is just missing that only little key piece to push it to the limit.

What a mind blowing introduction…

I hope that what you mean by this is that we got amazing tools on the paper but they are all so useless in the actual game that in the end it’s as if we don’t have any support tools.

Partially. Amazing on paper, but lacking. I’m not in full agreement with you on our support. I think you are correct on the skill side of this argument but when talking about our supportive traits, I’m not in agreement here. I Feel that the Support that Blood provides is invaluable. Although I would like to see Life stealing scale exclusively with healing power. if at 1.6k healing power its Damage going up to 120 or something similar could be amazing especially with altruistic runes. I feel that could be extremely interesting. I’m not committed to this number, however there should be a clear advantage in the sacrifice other attributes for healing power. But at the moment like I mentioned there isn’t a pay off for the necromancer to take max healing power.

squallaus.8321:

snip

The support you are trying to suggest is good is neither good or desired in raids. And you have yet to suggest how Death magic can stand on its own. You keep pairing it with blood magic as if that solves all of its glaring problems. Yes, blood magic is fairly good, except for a few quibbles I have with the traits healing scaling that I’ve gone into in length at the top. Oh and Unholy Martyr is trash for support especially when compared to the other two traits with one provides protection and the other is a res skill and heals. If Unholy Martyr pulled multiple conditions each pulse, such as one from each ally and have different life force scaling to better compensate for that, I might disagree with my statement. But as is, its much too slow for this to be effective. And Vampiric Rituals does provide 3 seconds of protection to allies. If necromancer ever gets a boon build in the future this is actually something to consider. (Although admittedly a metric tone of changes would have to take place for that to happen or an entire elite spec built around boons..)

Oh and on the “Some professions are better at some things.” Yes, but that’s not an argument especially when what the necromancer is currently good at is bringing epidemic to a raid. Their Condi could use some work, their tanking lacking when compared to everyone else, their healing build leaves something to be desired, Minions are no longer a good option for PvE content(especially considering enemies in the new areas are getting wise to them and focusing them down now) and their power build is abysmal.(Although that last point is something I absolutely did not address in this thread and don’t plan to, a topic for another day.)

Some of these changes I’ve suggested are changes I’ve thought about for years and tweaked to better suit the gaps in the necromancer’s armor that shouldn’t be there. (Not addressing all gaps since I don’t think the necromancer should literally be unstoppable.)

And that’s fine that your Niche build works for you. And my suggestions wouldn’t harm your extremely linear niche in the slightest. In fact it would aid in your build immensely. So why you are so adamantly opposed to it is beyond bizarre.

squallaus.8321:

But that shouldn’t distract from the fact why you are talking about more actively dodging in a tanking thread. Tanking is about taking dmg and not die and the ability to recover. To be able to tank you need to be well rounded in terms of condition cleansing, mitigating direct dmg and being able to recover both life force and health.

By far, Blood Magic + Death Magic give the best allrounded combo to provide all of that. It provides a better combo for “Tanking” and arguably better party “support” compared to Soul reaping + any other specialization. The condition cleanse from death magic is so good u can even persistently use plague signet to cleanse conditions for a party of 5. Everyone knows druids can condi cleanse for the party better with glyphs, but that is not exactly the point is it? Can druids take conditions from ally and send themback to the enemy and then spread them? No. GW2 was built around the fact that each class can do multiple things but some classes are better at others in certain aspects.

Chrono tanks actually avoid as much of the damage as they possibly can. So this Idea of “Tanks are about taking damage” Is a gross misunderstanding of what the tank’s role in the group is. The tank’s job is to hold aggro. Taking damage is a side effect of this, however its not actually required. Like I said, Chronos and even Guardians avoid taking large chunks of damage through blocks and evasion. And like I said, you can’t justify the use of a spec with just one decent trait.

And the thing is that Blood magic is providing the support in your own example. Not death. Death is doing little to absolutely nothing for your build yet you are insistent on using it. If you wanted to be tankier you could take Blighter’s boon with spite and soul reaping or spite and blood, and in both cases you have far greater sustain for yourself than with Death. Sure you sacrifice that one trait, however what you forget is that Consume condition is still a thing. Cleansing conditions from allies isn’t your job as a tank, that’s the healers unless you want to play a hybrid role, in which my suggestions would absolutely be needed, or something similar, in order to promote that game style.

Yes, you can survive on your extremely niche build. But you can’t sit there and say that you are at all comparable to a Guardian or Chronomancer tank. Hell you can’t even say you are comparable to a Revenant tank. Necromancer just lacks the utility to sustain this idea.

Death magic doesn’t help you that much in a dire situation either. Sure you have the condi cleans, but what happens if you’re up against enemies who’s condis don’t fall comfortable in your 3 second mark? or who don’t use condis at all. (Which happens all the time in raids since a lot of damage isn’t condi at all but raw power damage and heavy damage at that.) And even in this situation where their are a tone of condis going around, why on earth would I take a death magic necro who’s slowly pulling condis off of people when I could take a Revenant who can just pulse out resistance and pull all the conditions at once? And the revenant is not currently seeing play in raids. And they have better group condition control than we do! (Although the condi changes to rev might open a spot for it but that’s wishful thinking.) Not only that, but the revenant can provide other support like boons such as fury and might. Again we don’t have that.

squallaus.8321:

Or maybe u know if you actively dodge and use more offensive mechanics you wont need to tank at all. Why are you even making this thread about “tanking” when your central argument is not about tanking?

Raids. Which would explain the Chronomancer context I stated at the beginning. It was in comparison to and as an alternative to other more useful professions.

squallaus.8321:

Since the introduction of HoT, even the pve maps are condi meta now… how are you gonna tank with soul reaping alone when u can’t condi cleanse. Death magic is not just about minions, it’s necromancer’s strongest condi removal specialization.

And as usual its not just about a single specialisation working on its own. It’s about how it can work with other specialisations at the same time. You don’t just choose 1 line u choose 3. My argument is death magic + blood magic is better tanking over all compared to soul reaping + other combinations.

Condi for the players not the enemies. Enemies that use condi are far and few between and their stacks are generally extremely low with short duration. Condi cleans has never been a problem for me in any of my builds on necromancer without Death magic. I’ve been extremely successful. But Yes, Death does need to be able to stand up on its own because it being paired with Reaper or what ever new elite specialization that comes out and something else. Its not always going to have room for blood. If you need sustain on your necromancer the choices are between Death, Soul reaping and Blood. Blood provides party support, utility and healing. Soul reaping reduces cool down of skills, offers greater life force generation, grants you one of the most powerful stun breaks in the game, even a passive stun break that fuels your shroud and provides protection, increases your life force pool, while at the same time offers you amazing Offensive options. The comparison to them is a single minor trait in Death that doesn’t justify its place over Soul reaping(Especially in PvE) and especially doesn’t come close to comparing to Blood magic. Because when we look at builds Death has one thing to build off of that demands its use. Minions. Everything else you are far better off taking another trait line.

And when I call your build niche is because although it might work for you in open world, its value anywhere else is easily out classed by far superior builds both on the necromancer and when compared to other professions. The Chronomancer tank provides the party with massive quickness up time along with alacrity. The Dragonhunter tank has much higher DPS, its not even close, the Druid has far better cleans than you are providing for the party and offers better heals. Compared internally, the Condi Necromancer, again prefers Soul reaping or Blood magic over Death magic. Blood because it does provide a little bit of a damage boost to your party and can pull allies out of some seriously bad situations. While Soul reaping lets people play with the Dhuumfire condi greatsword rotation. Death doesn’t do any of that It doesn’t have use on a Power build, the laughable 14% toughness to power conversion wont be touched if the power build actually gets the correct buffs. A power necromancer will still opt to take Soul reaping, spite or Blood over Death. The Condi necro will also opt for soul reaping or Blood over death once again. They don’t have a pure Tanking build that is even close to being competitive with the staple professions for raids or otherwise. If you are having a problem with conditions in open world PvE I’d suggest evaluating your own skills and set your 6-0 skills to something much easier to press, learn to actively dodge and use more offensive mechanics rather than standing in AOE all the time.

I know it seems like I’m throwing a lot of shade here. However I must point out that I do really like the concept of Death magic. I just wish it had more utility. A single trait being good doesn’t make an entire specialization good.

squallaus.8321:

you’re not gonna tank much when u get 40 stacks of bleeding on you you’re gonna be forced out of shroud soon enough.

yeah soul reaping + spite is dhumfire tank build with decent dps due to might and vuln stacking and decent hp healing due to blighter’s boon. But in my experience it still loses out on tanking compared to blood magic + death magic. Blood magic’s unholy martyr trait is about on par with soul reaping’s Vital Persistence when u have alot of pets around because u take conditions from pets as well as allies.

Soul reaping is good for tanking while in shroud when theres no need for condi cleanse, but out side of that you’re screwed. And you don’t have condi cleanse while in shroud. So you tend to lose out on tanking over all.

In terms of LF generation, if u got chilling victory and GS it is still fairly fast even without soul reaping traits.

Are you talking about WvW? Because please specify if you are. I had the courtesy to specify what I was talking about in the initial post and since you are commenting I will assume you’ve read everything.

(Which the suggestions I’ve made Don’t harm your extremely niche build in the slightest as it stands)

Also, remove both Soul reaping and Blood from the equation. What can Death magic do on its own? Minions. Outside of that, the tanking aspect comes from the other trait lines like blood or Soul reaping. Your own argument even mentions as much. Combine with that, if you look at the suggestions I’m making you could see that your hypothetical situation (Which could realistically only really happen in PvP or WvW and rarely to never happens in PvE)

squallaus.8321:

I’d argue that death magic is better than soul reaping for tanking due to the condi cleaner and transfer from pets and the condi clear while in shroud. Together with rise and a couple of other minion utilities, Death magic condi removal makes pve content a walk in the park. Its so good you can even take plague signet to provide party condi removal support.

Blood Magic (taking unholy martyr trait) + Death Magic + reaper works well for tanking.
Blood Magic (taking unholy martyr trait) + soul reaping + reaper + condi removal and transfer sigils also work pretty well.

The beauty of death magic is, the condi removal works while you are inside of shroud.

And I’d argue it isn’t. One trait doesn’t make a good Tanking trait line. I did also mention that the Minion traits were good but you had no incentive to take Death for anything else. I actually have a necromancer who is specifically designed to tank and she actually takes Soul reaping and Spite. Or Soul reaping and Blood magic. Because one provides more utility for groups and the other is just better for solo roaming. Soul reaping provides both a buff to the amount of Life force you have plus cuts its decay in half. That is a massive defensive boost when compared to death which has the ability to remove a single condition every 3 seconds. My focus is to look at the holes in the necromancer’s armor for tanking and support of which I’ve spelled out here. Not to argue that your Highly situational and niche build is good or not..

One thing I should point out that I did over look is mesmer clones. I don’t think they should provide life force when I was talking about Soul Comprehension. Yeah, sorry about that.

Healing and Life stealing: This is a major area for contention for me with Anet’s design. Life stealing is split between two stats. Power and Healing power. This has always aggravated me to no end especially considering the Damage and healing was both the same number and scaled exclusively with whatever attribute line it was associated with in GW1. So the fact that it doesn’t function in a similar manor as it does in GW1 limits its uses and kills a good half the incentive that a necromancer has for taking healing power while using their healing specialization. I’ve made this argument before. Life stealing should scale exclusively with healing power. And the scaling should be high enough that a necromancer should want to spec into healing as and sacrifice other stats for this bonus. It should be noticeable and impactful. This change could accidentily slip a necromancer into both a tanking role or a healer role since Vampiric aura granting a major damage boost could have players looking at necromancer for other roles outside of condi. Now, I know one issue that is concerning. And that is the trait Vampiric. However, I don’t feel that Vamiric and Vampiric aura’s scaling should be the same. While Vampiric’s should remain where it is at, Vampiric arua’s should be greatly effected by this change. This goes the same for Signet of Vampirism both minor and the skill along with vampiric ritual. Id personally really like to see a Vampire style healer for the necromancer and perhaps we’ll get more support for that some day. But for now this is the most I can suggest on this front.

Soul Reaping: I briefly touched on soul reaping above and mentioned its over use while at the same time I suggested the movement of a trait that leaves a bit of room for soul reaping. So I’ll get into that just for consistency sake. Soul Reaping over all is fairly good, its just one trait that its overly reliant on.

• Last Gasp replaced with Vital Persistence: With the suggestion in rolling 25% of the decay reduction into the core of shroud I feel that Even with that necromancer are just going to take Vital persistence over the other traits anyway. So lets remove it as an option and give everyone this trait who takes Soul reaping. You’re welcome.
• Roll Last gasp into Spectral Mastery: This I don’t feel needs much explanation for it. I don’t feel that last gasp is a bad trait, far from it. And I don’t want to remove the option from necromancer’s entirely. it should still be something players can opt into.
• Cultist’s Fervor: When you activate a utility skill in shroud that skill’s recharge is reduced by 25% however you sacrifice life force while activating those skills. _Since we had some room left over for something else. I thought, well why not add a new trait idea I’ve been rolling around in my head for a while. Especially with my suggested change, granting this ability to the necromancer could give some really interesting utility. Such as doubling up on the Signet utility for SoV or cleansing more often with well of power.

Death Magic: Death magic has some unique traits for a defensive build, but it doesn’t really aid the necromancer that much when compared to Soul reaping. Its always just 2 steps behind. So I’ll break down a few traits that I think could serve a change that’ll really boost the effectiveness of this specialization to be favored over Soul reaping.

• Soul Comprehension: Summoned creatures provide life force on death and you gain life force from Deaths while in shroud. Very strange suggestion at face value and doesn’t sound that great at first. But look at it this way. Your allies who use minions will now provide you with life force, or spirits or perhaps elementals. This might be a bit powerful, so for the time being lets just speculate on it. But this could give necromancer’s a good way to sustain life force while in Shroud and with my above suggestion, this gives them interesting utility in raids that do have enemies that fuel Life force. The Red orbs in Vale guardian for example. So before you judge this one, think about it for a while first.
• Beyond the Veil: I really like that this trait provides protection to you and your minions, however I feel that it should also provide protection to allies. In my opinion providing this buff to up to 5 allies along with your minions could go a long way for a bit of bonus support.
• Putrid Defense: Add 20% poison duration on top of the 10% damage reduction. I know this doesn’t have to do with defense or support but this’ll make sense in a bit. The bonus this gives would make it a good alternative to shrouded removal which in my opinion is far superior.
• Shrouded Removal: With many of the changes I’m suggesting Shrouded Removal just becomes too good as a minor trait with its passive. The change here which should only be implemented if utility is added is that it should remove 2 conditions whenever you activate your heal, utility or elite skills.
• Replace Deadly Strength with Fetid Ground: Create a Minor Corrosive Poison Cloud at your location that lasts for 4 seconds on entering shroud. 30 second cool down. Counts as a corruption. You might assume that this is just as damage skill however, it provides the necromancer with a bit more defense. And pushes a poison theme that I personally feel that Death magic should fill.
• Unholy Sanctuary: Remove the self healing from the skill. Add the clause that if you are below 25% health in shroud, shroud slowly regenerates over time. This one sounds really strange, or even over powered, however the necromancer is already in a fairly dire situation when Unholy Sanctuary triggers and its healing really isn’t going to be enough in these situations. However with it regenerating a smart player could use this to get back into the game.

Its hard to argue that there are just superior professions in both these categories when talking about necromancer. The support aspect is right on the edge of being absolutely amazing and worth taking or considering in most situations but is just missing that only little key piece to push it to the limit. While tanking fairs far worse for necromancer. I’m not saying that necromancers are bad at tanking, far from it what i am saying is that they don’t have the proper traits to make them worth while over something or even as an alternative to say a Chronomancer or something else. Now this is coming from a PvE perspective and you’re welcome to chime in on PvP and WvW in this post, however due note that this is going to be mostly about PvE and not the other game types.

Some of the Issues

Life Force: The first problem that we run into as a support/tank is life force. This mechanic decays so quickly that many builds have opted to use it only as a last resort or sparsely use it, such in the case of the Condi rotation. While there are shroud builds that Run in shroud as long as they can these builds tend to be far weaker than their out of shroud equivalent.

Utility in Shroud: Both Death shroud and reaper’s shroud lack utility in that they limit you to 5 skills. This leaves them open to be easily controlled, even in PvE while simultaneously limiting the Necromancer’s options in combat. While many skills augment their utility its hard to argue that many traits are just lacking in this department or never used. While something like Transfusion seems to be great party utility, these trait is more the acceptation not the rule in terms for necromancer. Infusing terror is nice though not nearly enough.

Death magic: I think this trait line on its own is a big enough issue that it should get its own section. The most useful traits in Death magic are for minions and since minions aren’t that good at the moment its become fairly forgotten. Death magic seems to lack real identity outside of its minions and while it does seem to have the designated defense role in the Necromancer’s specialization lines, it fails in this catagory especially when compared to soul reaping which just provides greater sustain.

Healing Power: This is an attribute that should be really beneficial to the necromancer, however seems to be almost or entirely useless in any build. The bonus healing it grants to Transfusion is nice, though doesn’t aid in its primary use of resurrection while its benefit to vampiric aura is negligible at best.

Possible Solutions

Taking these problems into consideration I have a few ideas that could aid them in better filling these roles.

Cut lifeforce decay: Lifeforce as I mentioned above decays too quickly. I personally feel that putting 25% from Vital Persistence’s into just base shrould and than making 25% slower decay rate on top of that with its 15% and just rolling that into a Minor for soul reaping could open up new build possibilities for necromancer and prevent the linearity of Soul reaping. Although, since percentages don’t always quite work like this it might need to be 30% and 30% but that’s for the devs to figure out. I could do it, and I might later.

Utility in shroud: The first thing that should be changed is the necromancer should have access to their utility, healing skill and elite while in shroud. This would open them up to many different possibilities for all aspects of the necromancer but most importantly it would tighten up their defensive issues quite a bit. Although I do think the healing skill should not provide health if used in shroud, but you should have the option to use it for its secondary effects. Why is this important? Healing that heavily in shroud could be a bit much, though its hard to say for sure. At the very least Signet of Vampirism’s passive and active along with the attack from Blood fiend SHOULD heal the necromancer in shroud, though the active heal on either of them should no. This could create incentive for the necromancer to take different healing skills depending on the situation or the build they are attempting to use. Defensively it provides them with greater attrition.

Lahmia.2193:

Lily.1935:

the Radius on this skill is WAY WAY WAY WAY too low for it to be a melee cast skill. It should either be ground targeted or has a much larger radius.

Aye I definitely agree with adding Ground target, at 900 range like wells or cpc.

Ground targeted or make it pulse from the necromancer much like Flames of War on the warrior torch. Either way would work, but with how it currently works, I think I’m still going to just take Chill to the bone or Flesh golem.

the Radius on this skill is WAY WAY WAY WAY too low for it to be a melee cast skill. It should either be ground targeted or has a much larger radius.

Acnologia.6934:

About minions i love them. But i don’t think anet will ever again do something for us mm… can say i’m wrong but raids are what they are focused the most now. They’ll probably put minions away for more condis…. but i still hope for new minions! Give us an elite skill that summon a giganticus lupicus!

Raids are the reason Minions were nerfed in the first place. The ability to maintain 30 minions was a bit ridiculous. Maybe I’m exaggerating, but I could sustain about 12 in open world. I personally feel they went about the nerf in the wrong way, but I do agree they needed to be nerfed, just not to the current crippling extremely.

Anchoku.8142:

I have to admit to liking the idea of having a Bone Minion teleport to a ground target, and exploding there, over hoping the minion is somewhere close to where you expect it to be.

Shadow Fiend teleports and blinds. Flesh Wurm and Bone Minions both “pop” on command. Making Bone Minions’ teleport to their death should not be difficult, though it does require extra effort by the Necromancer.

Effort isn’t a problem for me. I don’t mind that. I feel teleportation would hurt some of the flavor of the minions, however I’m not so sold on this position and whichever direction Anet wants to go with it, I’m okay with it.

Dignified Loser.7689:

Though I too personally prefer the idea of a lot of little kittens swarming someone, I feel that both options of a couple bulkier minions and many little ones should be available. Maybe readjusting the number of Bone Minions to 3 or 4 inherently or through a trait could help as well as a much needed “fix” to Lich Form/Mark of Horror (jagged horrors) to be more active and useful without being (too) exploitable. Perhaps like the often suggested complete overhaul of the skill and a new one for jagged horrors (like the multiple suggestions for a “Signet of Horror” if I’m not mistaken). As it stands, the only way to get a large “zerg” of minions reliably is through “Rise,” which is locked behind an elite specialization (for better or for worse).

Two points.

First the bone minions. With the current way the traits work there really isn’t room to modify just one minion skill in how they work. Its also just better to improve it at its base. And I’ve been doing some major thinking on that and I feel that 5 is the best number for them at least in terms of PvE.

The second point is I purposely left open idea for Shadow fiend, Bone Fiend, flesh worm and Flesh Golem for people to make suggestions to make them higher quality.