Guild Wars 2

shimzor.6057:

koolmutt.9827:

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This is by FAR the worst nerf any class has gotten since the beginning of the game.

Do we play same game???? Mesmer is on top of the food chain.

Worst nerfs since beginning? Ever heard about warrior?

Warrior (worst pvp profession) got another nerf in this patch (huge one now).

Why comparing with a broken class, do u wish to play a broken game or would you like to give constructive feedback that will help improve them game.

i wish a-net communicate more with the players base on balance, even if they don’t have a ptr, good argument can prove to be a good help in balance. It also provide good insight to thing we alone could never have thought about!

Manuhell.2759:

If anything, after reading these reactions, i would say them moving it to grandmaster minor is quite justified. Since that is the place for build-defining traits.

Build defining trait for shatter should be something to do with shatter, illusion cooldown shouldn’t go there. If your talking about the name illusion tree, it deceptive, it does nothing to illusion but more toward shatter. If it was me i would rename the tree to shatter tree, to accurately define that tree. Illusion celerity is a class defining trait, and should be accessible to more build not being so deep into a shatter tree.

Empathetic Fighter.2065:

LonelyReaper.8075:

MaXi.3642:

LonelyReaper.8075:

If illusion celerity boost a mesmer efficiency by 15%-20% across the board for all build, A-net just kill build diversity like what they did to ele.

but this doesnt mean they should get it for 5 points in Illusion line… that trait is just too strong to be that cheap, you dont see it? anyway, elementalists attunements are not direct skills, you need to wait for cooldowns of skills AND attunement (and most weapon skills on ele are quite long CD compared to other profs), at the other hand, mesmer got reduced CD on maybe 4 out of 10 weapon skills for just 5 points, thats rediculous…

That the catch, if you have a traits that effect all spec where do you place it. Going up the traits line is not the solution, it just destroy a lot of viable spec. Should the place it as a major trait, in adept line, i think it a better solution. I think minor traits should accommodate for majority of the spec, major a stronger traits that can benefit many other build and grandmaster minor trait are free build defining trait that help the define the build. Having Illusion celerity on grandmaster minor trait is a no no, shattered strength is still the best for that spot. Illusion celerity if too strong for a minor adept trait, it should be move to minor master or major adept trait. What A-net did is a whack a mole balance.

The most traitlines have no synergy between them.
A handfull of them have the synergy. The results are the strong meta builds.
The best example for this is/was the cantrip-ele, shatter-mesmer, shout-guardian or backstab-thief.

If more traits were behaving like in those builds, there would be a bigger build-diversity. Instead ppl crying for nerfs 24/7 to destroy viable speccs and the next day they whine why there is no build-diversity. PPL need to realize that not the strong builds are the problem, but the weak-ones with their useless traitlines are.

There 2 problem at the moment, one is what i tried to explain, classes defining traits that are useful to most build should be accessible which means, it should be place in minor master traits and below. Next is minor grandmaster and grandmaster trait must be so strong that it define the certain build play style, that what you are trying to bring out i think. This traits should define that certian build strength and have their supporting traits in other traits tree master trait line and have filler that benefit the class(profession boosting traits) on adept. This will make balance so much cleaner as you can see pattern and it more organize. It give the developer as sense of how the traits are going, how to tweak trait that makes a build overpower and weak and balance accordingly without destroying other builds.

Shifting trait to hard to reach places also cause major impact on build diversity, and they just did what 1 that could be learn from eles to mesmer.

Empathetic Fighter.2065:

If the viability of several builds of a class depends on ONE or TWO traits, then something is completely wrong with this class and it should be reworked.

True and not true, but if a profession relies on a trait or two so much on all viable build is becuz it what Anet promote as class defining style. Shatter and illusion, attunement, stealth and steal. Some skill like cooldown reduction is very potent and hard to split it power into 2 traits. So what should A-net do is account that this trait will always be needed, and balance accordingly, let it be a filler trait where after taking powerful build defining trait, players will use the remaining point into this easy to access trait.

MaXi.3642:

LonelyReaper.8075:

If illusion celerity boost a mesmer efficiency by 15%-20% across the board for all build, A-net just kill build diversity like what they did to ele.

but this doesnt mean they should get it for 5 points in Illusion line… that trait is just too strong to be that cheap, you dont see it? anyway, elementalists attunements are not direct skills, you need to wait for cooldowns of skills AND attunement (and most weapon skills on ele are quite long CD compared to other profs), at the other hand, mesmer got reduced CD on maybe 4 out of 10 weapon skills for just 5 points, thats rediculous…

That the catch, if you have a traits that effect all spec where do you place it. Going up the traits line is not the solution, it just destroy a lot of viable spec. Should the place it as a major trait, in adept line, i think it a better solution. I think minor traits should accommodate for majority of the spec, major a stronger traits that can benefit many other build and grandmaster minor trait are free build defining trait that help the define the build. Having Illusion celerity on grandmaster minor trait is a no no, shattered strength is still the best for that spot. Illusion celerity if too strong for a minor adept trait, it should be move to minor master or major adept trait. What A-net did is a whack a mole balance.

Take ele as an example, attunement swap cooldown , ele rely on it so heavily in spvp to be viable becuz attunement swap is a class defining ability. It greatly boost a class performance in a competitive environment where player are trying to exploit the strength to the best. That what make most ele run x/x/x/x/30 on most viable spec.

So lets take a look at mesmer defining trait, a caster that summon illusion to do most of thier bidding. That what define the class, most crucial skill have illusion tied to them. Illusion celerity a cooldown reduction to all illusion is a trait that benefit the whole class which heavily rely on illusion, moving it up the trait line just kill diversity as it reduces the potency of other spec other than shatter as most other spec don’t benefit much from going so deep into illusion tree. This will end up forcing mesmer to be like ele and also go into the last tree to be viable in tpvp for a class defining trait.

A-net what your view on this, especially seen this effect on ele , what gives the idea to replicate the same effect onto another class when the goal is to expand diversity?

Although i can’t give a good prediction now, but from history , mesmer have high chances of being like eles, time will tell, what do you think will happen.

ok, 1st i don’t know how the whole patch will turn out, but i will state an real obvious fact that if u ever played an ele u will know it. Just check ele arcane trait, it reduces their the cd for attunement swap which is one of their class defining traits, and every1 build that doesn’t run it will feel the drawback and affect the strength of ele build tremendously that why u see all ele running x/x/x/x/30 on most viable build.
Now onto mesmer, illusion summoning is our class defining trait, illusion celerity is a strong trait all together using the effect share by ele attunement swap reduction, it reduces the cooldown on abilities the class heavily rely on, mesmer need illusion to function, ele need attunement swap to dance around with all their pbaoe.
So one thing A-net never learn, they fail to grabs their own design and notice the biggest strength and weakness in theory crafting that make most of their balance patches seem like a whack a mole balance.
If illusion celerity boost a mesmer efficiency by 15%-20% across the board for all build, A-net just kill build diversity like what they did to ele.

lol, skill have to have more weightage and less spammy.

@Juan Ignacio:

You get less team work in soloq as every1 play to be more self sufficient, but when you play in a team orientated build, you weakness and strength become more obvious, without team work like what i experienced with my team pug pre made that without teamwork and coordination we can’t win even against the self sustian group of pugs. When we get out stuff together, we were a much stronger force that easily dominated the self sustain pugs and now gave a good fight to other premeds.

Defektive.7283:

Juan Ignacio.8903:

LonelyReaper.8075:

Juan Ignacio.8903:

im going to say it again gw2 is not about teamplay is about communication and awareness wich p much if u wana be good in all games u have to have that but in gw2 is needed more since is more 1v1 2v2.
the only support in this game is staff guardian and aura sharing all the other things every class can do it by themselves

Teamplay is also an essential part of gw2 alongside with communication and awareness. Teamplay get overshadowed by the other 2 as how face your hp can go from 100 to 0 and from 1 to 80 in matter of secs and how some aoe cleaves are part of it.

Edit: Thief venom share can also be a strong support build if aoe cleaves are not that strong. Aoe need to deal overall less dmg then single atks so that players can choose when to use an aoe and when to use a single target atk. If this changes goes through, eles need some skill change to have some more single target or just have some of the strong aoe tone down so that it will only be a choice to be used during a heavy stacking occur.

no, there is no backline mid front there is no weak guy that needs protection there is no empower that guy so he 2shots people there is no strategy there is no “ima tackle this guy so u cast ur nuke kinda thing” . there is just different ways to do the same do dmg or spam condis.

Nail on the head.

To much spam, not enough tactics.

Yeah i agree with too much spam, aoe and spam need to be tone down.

Juan Ignacio.8903:

LonelyReaper.8075:

Juan Ignacio.8903:

im going to say it again gw2 is not about teamplay is about communication and awareness wich p much if u wana be good in all games u have to have that but in gw2 is needed more since is more 1v1 2v2.
the only support in this game is staff guardian and aura sharing all the other things every class can do it by themselves

Teamplay is also an essential part of gw2 alongside with communication and awareness. Teamplay get overshadowed by the other 2 as how face your hp can go from 100 to 0 and from 1 to 80 in matter of secs and how some aoe cleaves are part of it.

Edit: Thief venom share can also be a strong support build if aoe cleaves are not that strong. Aoe need to deal overall less dmg then single atks so that players can choose when to use an aoe and when to use a single target atk. If this changes goes through, eles need some skill change to have some more single target or just have some of the strong aoe tone down so that it will only be a choice to be used during a heavy stacking occur.

no, there is no backline mid front there is no weak guy that needs protection there is no empower that guy so he 2shots people there is no strategy there is no “ima tackle this guy so u cast ur nuke kinda thing” . there is just different ways to do the same do dmg or spam condis.

I just did a premade team with pugs i recruited on channel. We start of slowly, then we change the build to fit the team from what they play on their soloq. We soon learn to team work, combo and take out priority target. So there sure is team work like how i set up a immobilize for my warrior to bullcharge rush and how i remove condition for him to keep up on the target. This are just some of the example.

DiogoSilva.7089:

The problem with party support is the lack of intrastructure that supports it.

In other games, you can target allies and use skills on them, but the devs didn’t want players in GW2 to spend their time watching health bars. That’s fine. However, instead of creating a new, more visceral mechanic, they have completely scrapped it, and party support was left to aoe skills and nothing else, with very few exceptions.

To start, it would be interesting if there were a lot more aoe support skills that would only affect “other allies”, not yourself. Second, more auto-targetting skills like the guardian’s meditation (?) that teleports to ally with the lowest health and restores them. This can be expanded into a mechanic that allows you to automatically target allies without spending time clicking on them, so that the combat can remain visceral.

they should have some support skill affect 900 range in a cone of 30-40 degree wide in front of the players. This promote skill facing to land your support ability and also fix not having to target 1 player instead of having it a meager 300 radius that no sane players will stack with you.

Juan Ignacio.8903:

im going to say it again gw2 is not about teamplay is about communication and awareness wich p much if u wana be good in all games u have to have that but in gw2 is needed more since is more 1v1 2v2.
the only support in this game is staff guardian and aura sharing all the other things every class can do it by themselves

Teamplay is also an essential part of gw2 alongside with communication and awareness. Teamplay get overshadowed by the other 2 as how face your hp can go from 100 to 0 and from 1 to 80 in matter of secs and how some aoe cleaves are part of it.

Edit: Thief venom share can also be a strong support build if aoe cleaves are not that strong. Aoe need to deal overall less dmg then single atks so that players can choose when to use an aoe and when to use a single target atk. If this changes goes through, eles need some skill change to have some more single target or just have some of the strong aoe tone down so that it will only be a choice to be used during a heavy stacking occur.

@DiogoSilva and Paradoxine:

Yes, i agree, support ability need to be straigthen up a bit. Now a lot of support are missing their intended target or unusable becuz of how fast the pace of the game is or how strong aoe spamming are preventing stacking for some support aoe. This need a thread on it own and need a potential fix.

@Milo:

As you say giving a profession more sustain kill team play, but there some times like in wow, it just break some classes and make some classes so op. I think i won’t go to much into wow for examples but like a mesmer, if he build for more sustain , he is partially useless to his/her team, so with most shatter mesmer now, they only have 1 oh crap button on the go and 1 tied to class machanic on long cd with prerequisite. That the type of mesmer you want in a team, they are more team orientated but are easily killed in that setup compared to a shatter mesmer taking decoy,blink and mirror image or even a phantasm mesmer that have so much sustain but it doesn’t bring any team utilities or team work except 1 stun and dmg. So it boil down to , yes warrior need more sustain if his alone but in team composition will bring anything for the team.

I think profession need to be able to at least sustain themselves 1v1 , meaning in a 1v1 fight against most classes except their counter they should not fare too bad and in a team play they should no have glaring over powered combination, then a close to balance game is achieved. So far gw2 has done what wow could not, and like what my boomkin face in wow during cataclysm was it was so broken in 1v1 and it was some what ok in team play that make that spec and class so underpowered and no 1 want them in arena except occasionally bgs as they have strong aoe.

Edit: As warriors get more sustain , i think there must be a trade off in their bulk of hp or dmg. But i think dmg on warrior need to be tone down a bit with the sustain they can get.

milo.6942:

LonelyReaper.8075:

i am sure i fully understand what you are talking about.

milo.6942:

you may think you do… but you really don’t.

LonelyReaper.8075:

GW2 also have rock/paper/scissor , it just that with that some factor i stated in my 1st post make it so hard to realize it.

Like you say you blind the warrior, warrior need a healer to remove it to deal dmg, same in gw2, i just played with a warrior i babysat him in tpvp, i cleanse all his condition for him to deal dmg and try to heal him with my aoe(which most of the time misses as what i explained in the 1st post). Is that so far off? I even immobilize a jumping thief so that he can land a bullcharge rush. So i don’t see how far am gw2 is off from gw1, its presented differently, yes but not so alien that it doesn’t have it at all.

ok you are getting close to being on-topic now
now you also see the problem with gw2. you mention warrior in gw2 and you help him remove blind. OK. except that this is the reason no one takes warrior. he needs support. other classes don’t have this problem as serious as warrior do — they are more independant. and devs say they will make warrior have better self-clean from condition… this is step in direction of less teamplay.
hope you better understand what discussion is about now.

I am on track, just that i may not have stated it so clear or you miss understood me. Warrior do have their down, and other classes may have too much, so in my 1st post i stated some of the problem i see as the problem to having teamwork being felt so lacking in gw2.

Edit: @ Paradoxine:

He did say that, that why a the tie breaker was set in place, even wiki have some info on it. I was clueless about gvg, so i went to read up on some of it, i may not have the experience of playing it but from what i read , watch and hear from Jon that the conclusion i come to. I don’t think i am that far off. It really do resemble the tactics in wow CTF mode of Harathi Highlands and Warsong Glutch(may spell it wrong.), that when blizzard implemented a stronger debuff on the flag carrier as a tie breaker.

kostbabis.8791:

I strongly believe that support and player interaction in gw2 has the potential to be much deeper ,intuitive and fun than any other mmo that i have played yet.
Just the lack of defined roles give many people the impression that there are no roles at all.Some people simple dont like making sence out of the chaos.They went everything defined and set in the most simple way possible.And thats fine!
I know that gw2 is over the top at the information someone needs to process during a simple small sale fight so that the team can function the best possible way.
But its still possible to make sence out of it.And when you manage to do you ll come to appreciate that the battle defining moment didnt came down to just filling up a health bar by your dedicated healer.
Spreadin a specific role to more than 1 player doesnt make team play less..It just makes it a lot harder to reach that optimal play.Do i heal now or do i use my aoe heal for me now after i reach my teammate.Do i use my boon now or near my allies.Do i use my ccs now or do i coordiante them with my team.All these choices wouldnt exist together if there was 1 guy healing, 1 dps etc!
Just think how hard is to reach lets say max healing on your team in gw2 in comparison to a game like wow !
Sometimes too much complexity makes people giving up making sence.Then they blame the problem, having no substance and no solution ,instead of their inability to work it outAnd thats my opinion :P

^ i think this post stated it all and better.

Paradoxine.8192:

LonelyReaper.8075:

what up? and this about gw2 teamwork , suddenly it becomes i want gw1. Then you should just rename the title teamworkin gw1>gw2, then i won’t post anymore.

Sorry, but “always ended in stalemate”? You lost all your credibility there. Please don’t talk about a game you know nothing about. Additionally, yet again we have someone who watches a few youtube clips and thinks he knows the game, worse yet, you reference WoW as though that is relevant. If I judged GW2 gameplay off of youtube clips while never having played it at a decent level, I’d be called an idiot and rightfully so.

I am sorry, go find the post or SOTG that jon stated about gvg. I think it the recent SOTG, he say that it always ended in turtling and so it ended in a stalemate that A-net have to implement a tie breaker to force all the npc into the middle to battle it out.

Edit: If you want to call yourself an idiot be my guest, i won’t judge you.

Edit: @MIlo

i am sure i fully understand what you are talking about. GW2 also have rock/paper/scissor , it just that with that some factor i stated in my 1st post make it so hard to realize it.

Like you say you blind the warrior, warrior need a healer to remove it to deal dmg, same in gw2, i just played with a warrior i babysat him in tpvp, i cleanse all his condition for him to deal dmg and try to heal him with my aoe(which most of the time misses as what i explained in the 1st post). Is that so far off? I even immobilize a jumping thief so that he can land a bullcharge rush. So i don’t see how far am gw2 is off from gw1, its presented differently, yes but not so alien that it doesn’t have it at all.

what up? and this about gw2 teamwork , suddenly it becomes i want gw1. Then you should just rename the title teamworkin gw1>gw2, then i won’t post anymore.

milo.6942:

@ all who are arguing against OP topic:
chances are very high that you’ve not played gw1 GvG or HA at high enough level (or at all).
in this thread, there are many references to gw1 style of team play. that is what we are all talking about. if you don’t know what that was like, you will not understand even 1% of the discussion. you may think you do… but you really don’t.

in summary, gw1 pvp was like this: rock-paper-scissors chess action-rpg. 2 teams of 8. in order to deal damage to enemy team, you had to “unlock” their defenses while simultaneously preventing them from doing the same to you. a simple example would be:

they blind your warrior so he does no damage, your healer has to remove it & manage his energy, which he could only do if your team wasn’t taking too much damage, which your midline could help with by disabling their damage (like blinding their warrior), which they could do as long as the enemy team disablers weren’t focusing on them or the enemy monks were under enough pressure so they don’t have energy for condi remove… etc etc etc. that’s team work. that’s pvp. not like gw2.

hope you understand better what we’re talking about.
thnx bye

yes i don’t and gvg is boring as hell to watch if i don’t play the game, i just see a clutter of players fighting in the middle of the map and even A-net stated it always ended in stalemate with players bunkering. This is not much different that wow capture the flag mode, u have 1 immortal tank and 3 healers keeping them up all the time, dps running from graveyard to the opponent base to be sent back again in mins and it goes till the debuff on the flag carrier make them like a naked player then whoever that lucky get the kill win the match. The immortal tank in gvg just became your lord in gw1.

Edit: But hell its fun to play bg in wow. Just that now gw2 remove healer and give every1 a heals , it make me like this much better.

Paradoxine.8192:

LonelyReaper.8075:

Paradoxine.8192:

LonelyReaper.8075:

DiogoSilva.7089:

DiogoSilva.7089:

……

The way you say it make me think that every1 should be like a warrior, no variety and all brute force and bulk. I wouldn’t want that.

It remind me of warrior that always complain about classes running away or kiting and not facing them directly.

Edit:One thing i agree is that to have classes animation more obvious like warriors , so that players can spot them on the go.

How on earth did you come to that conclusion from what he said? Please be serious.

That what i see, no clone mechanic, no passive ability more linear traits like warrior +dmg -snare duration and remove trait completely , warrior get changes the least if traits are remove, they still most probably play the same. Especially now other classes strength in pvp are tied a lot into their traits , warrior on the other hand are tied to their weapons and utilities. Traits only offer boost to what they have, making it like the beast it is in pve.

LonelyReaper.8075:

no clone mechanic

Once again, what are you talking about? How did you infer this from the removal of traits? I don’t even think removing traits is necessary, just redesigning them, but come on.

So for the no clone mechanic i mean dodge spawn clone and no passive i mean the vigor and regeneration on ele. But come on read what he stated and read in between the line too, that what you will get if u analyze it well. It so clear that every1 should be a warrior, plain and straight forward.

LonelyReaper.8075:

Paradoxine.8192:

LonelyReaper.8075:

DiogoSilva.7089:

DiogoSilva.7089:

……

The way you say it make me think that every1 should be like a warrior, no variety and all brute force and bulk. I wouldn’t want that.

It remind me of warrior that always complain about classes running away or kiting and not facing them directly.

Edit:One thing i agree is that to have classes animation more obvious like warriors , so that players can spot them on the go.

How on earth did you come to that conclusion from what he said? Please be serious.

That what i see, no clone mechanic, no passive ability more linear traits like warrior +dmg -snare duration and remove trait completely , warrior get changes the least if traits are remove, they still most probably play the same. Especially now other classes strength in pvp are tied a lot into their traits , warrior on the other hand are tied to their weapons and utilities. Traits only offer boost to what they have, making it like the beast it is in pve.

To expand this, let take it to our imagination:

Let say a shatter mesmer without trait vs a warrior without traits. No clone generation and long cd and weak shatter that can’t remove boons and it clone getting 1 shotted from cleaves will lose to a warrior that have just as much output(compared to the current mesmer) and cc. The warrior now don’t have to worry about shatter as it does not dmg and the real mesmer can be easily found by swinging their large blade or heavy axe, killing all clones and phantasm. No phantasm and clone = no dmg, to prevent this the mesmer take signet of illusion, clone die slower but now the mesmer have less survivability, or less 1 utility slot for portal or IOL or any other. To prevent that mesmer can go soldier amulet and boost survivability but will that win the warrior, no it just delay the fight longer as now mesmer deals less dmg and warrior heal just become more sustainable.

Paradoxine.8192:

LonelyReaper.8075:

DiogoSilva.7089:

DiogoSilva.7089:

……

The way you say it make me think that every1 should be like a warrior, no variety and all brute force and bulk. I wouldn’t want that.

It remind me of warrior that always complain about classes running away or kiting and not facing them directly.

Edit:One thing i agree is that to have classes animation more obvious like warriors , so that players can spot them on the go.

How on earth did you come to that conclusion from what he said? Please be serious.

That what i see, no clone mechanic, no passive ability more linear traits like warrior +dmg -snare duration and remove trait completely , warrior get changes the least if traits are remove, they still most probably play the same. Especially now other classes strength in pvp are tied a lot into their traits , warrior on the other hand are tied to their weapons and utilities. Traits only offer boost to what they have, making it like the beast it is in pve.

KrisHQ.4719:

milo.6942:

btw since devs announced they’re buffing warrior and help him vs condi, i can say now that pvp devs have given up on this game ever being good. warrior is probably the best designed class with good visual cues for important skills and good damage but weakness to condi & slows. this could have turned into a good teamplay dynamic like in gw1. they should have nerfed other classes to this level to promote support, but instead they just buff warrior. gg anet.

I gotta agree with this one as well.
After playing around with warrior instead of my usual main-classes, I feel like the warrior is actually the only class that is balanced.
With my Ranger or Elementalist i can just spam healings, evades and still deal tons of condition AND direct dmg.
Playing with my warrior I could only fill one role at a time, which also meant that i really had to watch out for the opponents attacks instead of just recklessly spam my dodges.
I feel like everything is just too much in a sense. There is too much of everything atm. Too many conditions, too much cleansing, too low CD on skills, too high endurance regeneration.
They should really try to bring down the pace of the game, instead of just buffing Warriors to fit the current meta.

Edit:
I’ve said this a hundred times, but supportive roles needs a more dominant role.
Every single healing ability in the game is solely for personal use. How many times do you see a Guardian healing his allies with Healing Breeze? Yeah, never. Why should he when they have plenty of heals themselves, and the ally-heal on the skill is terrible. No one would ever pick such a skill compared to a 2-sec block.
I love the fact that the holy-trinity is non-existant, but roles should still apply. GW2 should strive to have roles similarly to MOBA-games.

The only class i think it quite balance is guardian. Warrior have to much dmg and most build have quite a lot of cc. Warrior can only do dmg and face tank most dmg with thier large hp pool which make them much simpler then other clunkier profession. So they can take their time to watch for all the opponent atk and find the right time to make a move.
In general i think the problem is how the maps are created in conquest and how dmg is in this game. If dmg is tone down across the board and point on conquest is being awarded slower, and skill cd increase to slow down the spam, it could promote more decision making and counter against other players ability like what you are experiencing with your warrior.

DiogoSilva.7089:

DiogoSilva.7089:

AoE is overpowered, but it’s also needed to counter pet armies, stealthed characters, easy rezzing, etc. I believe this reflects the state of the whole game, though. Condition cleansing is mindlessly overpowered, but it’s needed to counter condition spammers. And there’s also boon spamming, although anti-boon is less frequent, to counter extreme, “I can’t even see what happened” bursts.

To expand on this,

Traits only make this worse. In order to make traits interesting, for the sake of not all of them being boring +X stat boosts or -X cooldown effects, traits are overloaded with +conditions, + boons, etc, etc. And so we see classes getting perma-vigor and spamming dodge to get back to points, and classes that get overloaded with boons by using traited-utilities.

The reward of using Mist Form should be its own function: invulnerability. Why reward eles with regen, vigor and condition removal on top of that? The reward and punishment for using a strong, instant-cast Mind Wrack should be the fact that it’s strong, is instant-cast and comes at the cost of your illusions. Why have it add might, have ite ven stronger, be used without illusions, and allow illusion generation by dodging?

The traiting system is a redudant system that, in theory, it has the purpose to offer more player customisation to compensante for the lack of it within the skill system, but in practise, it overloads the game with boons, conditions, info-dumps, hidden stats, extreme bunkers, extreme bursters, etc.

If traiting was removed completely, and the skill system’s customisation was expanded, we would get the same level of customisation, without overloading the game with effects and hidden information.

It would also help, indirectly, teamplaying, as each build would be less extreme or less overloaded with tools to make it independent. A cantrip ele would no longer have the long-term defense it currently does, which would actually make glyph or signet eles (if buffed) take that role. A mesmer would no longer be able to spam clones, which would make scepter mesmers (again, if buffed) take that role. Etc.

This simplication of roles would make professions closer to warriors, with stronger weakspots, and thus they would require a much tighter team playing.

The way you say it make me think that every1 should be like a warrior, no variety and all brute force and bulk. I wouldn’t want that.

It remind me of warrior that always complain about classes running away or kiting and not facing them directly.

Edit:One thing i agree is that to have classes animation more obvious like warriors , so that players can spot them on the go.

I don’t agree that classes being more independent spoils the game. FPS game every1 is independent but it doesn’t make it not fun to play. GW2 pvp still require team work but not set in stone like how the holy trinity mmo games are. Team work in gw2 is some what similar to a FPS game. I also think that lot of players have been playing solo queue for too long and build for a self sustainable build, that when players of 5 pugs find that with subtle teamwork and less coordination can win most game. When u play with an organize team, like i did with 4 pugs, we build for team play, there you can feel that when one of your team mate fail to react in time or make the wrong move without communicating the team crumble to pieces. No 1 member can succeed without the team there. As we get our stuff together, we practically make a winning spree against good 5 self sustain pugs and make a good match against other premade teams.

Thing that i find gw2 that make team work hard to grasp is that it :
1) Have too many hidden traits and skill with too many skill ability tied to it
2) AOE that kill all support skill that require to be close to get it
or
2) Skill that lack players targeting, in such a fast action pace game, ground target aoe and aoe that affects surround players support skill often miss render it useless.
3) Lacking of Elite skill that can be game changer but can be counter with skill that on high cd on all profession.
or
3) You can also say that skill have powerful ability that are spam-able on low cd that make some Elite skill seem useless
4) The pace of battle or the time of it take to take a player from 100 to 0 in sec make it that some battle need less coordination and just spam your way through till some 1 drops.
5) Subtle to no animation of some skill in the plethora of animation clutter that make it hard for other member to counter it in such an action pack game.

These are some of the thing i can think of now.

i like to study the classes and strategize, so i usually play based more on strategy, so if u need some1 to strategize u can have me there to plan for you.

I think if you can talk to the organizer, i think it will also benefit all other regions as tourney on sunday night is bad for any1 that have a life on weekdays. Viewership will be bad too as soon as the initial hype of watching tourney during the 1st few week, some ppl will make some exception but soon they will prefer it on day that fit their timing better.

I am in SEA region, Malaysia to be exact. Send me an in game mail!

cuge.5398:

Mammoth.1975:

Assyrian.4827:

just type this in Google or YouTube and enjoy:

Guild Wars GvG : rawr vs KMD

Nice vid. It reminds me though, if you look at gw1 videos from the perspective of someone who never played it, you’d have no idea what is going on there. Great coordination, but unless you play, you just wouldn’t even realise. Spikes are so fun to watch though.

Yeh, exactly, i watched it but with all those speed up/slow down, quick pov change, i really couldnt understand much, i can just guess something about the game from what ppl say here…. so far seems to me it was more focused on teamwork in the fight, with more supportive spells and stuff like that.
I would definitely appreciate if gw2 could offer some easier way to support eachother in a teamfight, i mean, there are already some great examples of this, but its really hard to achieve it cause the gameplay is really fast, thus its more focused on players being self sufficient and then teamwork comes into play as an added good.
Its quite hard to support the team here, and most of that support plays around the downed state, interrupting stompers, ressing the downed or stealthing it to prevent stomping…
It wont be bad to have some more “decisive” support skills, that would exalt a coordinated team, like being able to make a teammate invulnerable, or cleansing conditions from him (there are ways to do this, but usually its just 1).

Quoted for the truth.
I never played GW1, but it is boring as hell to watch and it so confusing to watch as hell. Although all that,I went to research and found out its mechanics and gameplay to understand the game. I think what make GvG is that the game have a few objective that can lead a team to victory instead of measly waiting for the point to tick and sitting on points. Next like what cuge pointed out, in gw1 you can feel how other profession can help support another teammate with heals,cleansing, debuff, buffs etc in the slower pace game, but in gw2 everything seems more about self proficiency. Although from the pro team gameplay, i can see a lot of team work and support dishing out to the team but what lack if that feeling of that major spell that save your team, stopped you from dying, lock down a person that won the fight and so on. I think if they could make the all profession Elite skill more game changer, make it some what defining and important and powerful in a team fight would help a lot in this game in term of support and oh wow moment. Like a well timed time warp or moa, a good supply drop that disable a team that help won the fight and not like Ele stupid elementalist with thier larger health poll and somewhat increase dmg pet that got clone up from thier utility skill that barely does anything amazing.

I think every1 is just to fond of gw1 pvp, and literally want a copy of that game in a new engine. GW2 from what i see GW2 have evolve but it’s something too different than the norm and i think it need some time to figure out what it wanna be, like some what in thier teens and need to find a path.

What i think GW2 neeed is that A-net really need to step up, with it’s community coming together to support their game, they should reply in kind. A-net need to support it’s community too.I think they need form a bigger pvp team, and have a community relation manager that oversee the feedback from the community,take it, test it and come out with good solution. Have a major balance patch every month or 1 and half month with minor patchs every 2 week. There a lot of skill and traits need revamping and interface and animation to fix.

google, you should make that your sig. It a nice quote

Amadeus.5687:

You do talk about having acces to more 2-3 different kits in many of your examples, and you also talk about how we can do HGH and have lot’s of boons and amazing damage on the same time

Even then, if you don’t state that, which is fine, we can say that, you still manage to mess it up, because when you compare everything to other classes. you still underrate how big a price it is to give up an entire Utility Slot, to get acces to a second weapon set. What good are you with no CD on the weapon swapping if they just chain CC, because don’t have room for the things I have stated several times? I really doubt that you ever played a Engineer vs any decent players

I stated in the opening about nothing about Hgh and kits but when ppl gave example, i reply thinking their running 1 healing kit and 2 weapon kit on their slot, so that makes 3 kit. Any engineer that pvp at least will take 1 elixir for some defensive utility, so i didn’t stated it(my fault.). Any class except bunkers will die from chained cc, only class i know that can almost survive that is guardian and ranger. Even now ele dies from chained cc. The profession that dies the most in tpvp mesmer, that have no move speed, take 2 utility for the team, 1 stun breaker, 1 condition cleanse traited in heal , also die from chain cc, and ppl been complaining how op they are. Not lying go watch the few scrim and tourney that have been hosted, see how even xeph on Team Paradigm get kill so often compared to teldoo(he is awesome). Teldoo on far node also survive with 2 kits 1 healing turret and 1 elixir vs 2 members of other team and can last up to 30sec which is his skill but partly of how strong no cd on weapon swapping is.

Penguin.5197:

Lol I’m not sure how serious this thread is but anwyays…
Mechanics wise you can’t get any more plain than an engineer. Average life, average armor, low speed, very low access to stealth, no clones and no weapon swap. What we do have though is a few more skills than the rest at a time thanks to our toolbelt skill and kits depending on how many we decide to take. Take away our kit advantage (which I doubt will happen anyways) and all you have left is a plain class, your average soldier if you will.

I think if A-net can test it on their server and have a PTR that let top players test it, it would be good. I doubt it will be a big nerf, just less advantage and more on par with other profession basic mechanics.

Amadeus.5687:

No you ain’t saying take 4 kit’s, but every time you start talk about what the Engineer can do you “pick” stuff where we somehow have 2-3 Kits + Boon Stacking Utility + Stun Breaks + Condition removal.

Which you still fail to understand, and the reason why close to everyone that reply probaly will take you for a fool from now on, is that.

I can’t be kitten to state it anymore so this is the last time: To do what you say we can do, is not posible! Even then, running a 2 Kit build, which I do and love a lot, we pay a high price for:

Only one utility spot open, and you are lacking:
A Stun Breaker
Condition Removal
Boons stacking Skils (Regen being the only boon, which comes from Toolbelt skill on Elixir Gun, if you actually have that one)

You also have: Weak Skill 1 on your weapons and Kits and lower damage, and need to use more trait points that will pinghole you into the Kit’s.

And finally, Yes, Engineers are the only one having this! Gongrats! Why? Because it’s our special class Mechanic! Just like Memsers are the only one that got weapon skills that can spawn Pet’s, and Rangers being the only one that have super strong Pet’s! The fun thing is, It’s all ready balanced! They balanced that with how strong out Kits are and giving them all weak points that we can’t cover unless we pick other utility!

Gesus…

I nv state any thing you just listed, i only say how unpredictable they can be with no cd on weapon swapping. I nv say you have unlimited condition dmg or power i am just replying to what example you throw at me and explain how i see it. I think that having no cd on weapon swapping is very strong class mechanic, like how ppl view thief with the 3-4 sec backstab combo steal that instant kill.

NevirSayDie.6235:

Could a moderator close this thread please? I don’t think there are any infractions but it would be nice to know that Anet is not taking this seriously.

Alternatively, I suppose we could just stop feeding the thread—however, this suggestion would break every usable engineer build in existence, so it’s a bit hard to keep quiet about it.

Also, thanks to the dev(s) who fixed the broken turret traits. Turrets are still bad, but at least they’re not broken and bad now.

It will be nice to have a dev respond, would like their opinion about it.

jportell.2197:

JinDaVikk.7291:

Lonely….

We dont know how much damage you do so just cause your p/d condi doesnt mean anything.

next mesmers can gives phantasms double the hp….. plus shares mesmers toughness…..

Also 1 phantasm = higher damage, higher survival, actually targets a specific person, and has lower cd’s… better yet doesn’t waste utility….

mesmers not taking condi removal are hilarious when I kill them EVERY SINGLE TIME.

dude…. sad.

Most mesmers have to take at least one condi removal. I usually trait for the torch.. Is it only one per skill? yeah but is it better than what we normally get hell yes!

They don’t have a single condition remover on utility, see all the mesmer on tourney on stream, all of them traited them on heal, which require a trait and it on another skill that goes on a 2 sec cd, only 1 condition. Shatter mesmer don’t run a torch except if your a condition mesmer or phantasm( i seen some that run with torch dunno why.) which last longer than the standard shatter tpvp mesmer that uses portal/IOL/(decoy/blink/Mirror Image).

jportell.2197:

@ Reaper… Purple Fleck is by far a very good engineer and very good in tourneys I have played with them and they hold side points very well. Flame thrower is very useless in tPvP… All someone has to do is stand right on top of the engi and they will keep getting “MISS MISS MISS!” because you know flame thrower is that awesome…

I know but why should that person be right on top of you and why should you use that when it’s on you, you can swap at will that make weapon swapping that good in pvp.

JinDaVikk.7291:

Lonely….

We dont know how much damage you do so just cause your p/d condi doesnt mean anything.

next mesmers can gives phantasms double the hp….. plus shares mesmers toughness…..

Also 1 phantasm = higher damage, higher survival, actually targets a specific person, and has lower cd’s… better yet doesn’t waste utility….

mesmers not taking condi removal are hilarious when I kill them EVERY SINGLE TIME.

dude…. sad.

I been talking about tpvp, so suddenly i got demoted to hotjoin build or WvW build that doesn’t work in tpvp, nice. So to clarify it, it backstab. Go test it. It also a waste of time when you don’t read the other post ppl made and i reply. I say turret aren;t strong, so something weak and broken that ppl are asking for buff is not what i am talking about. Something need fixing does not make something else balance.

As for Phantasm build, their treated, target is played as zerker gc spec and it non viable in tpvp other that dueling and loses to ranger 1v1 drawn out fight, you can test out this op dueling spec and see if you can succeed in tpvp with that phantasm mesmer build.

Amadeus.5687:

@LonelyReaper

Gesus you don’t understand it, I think Toss Elixir R is an amazing skill, what I wanted to point out for you, which you cleary don’t get.

Is that the more kits you take, the less utility skills you can take to cover weak points. I didn’t ask for all Tool Belt Ability or Utility to be a stun break, I never said that. THe point I made was if you run with 4 Kits you will have:
No Stun Break, No Condition Removal (Unless Elixir Gun which remove one on skill 5), and no real acces to Boons. Now, I do think that’s quite balanced for having that many Weapon Kit’s, but the Price is there, I play a very very dangerous way if running that.

And you are wrong, from every logical view, because you try to balance every proffession around the same core principels, which you can’t.
if we get 5 second CD on swaps, why shouldn’t the rest of the proffessions only have 5 second CD on the swap? Or at least a Trait that gives them that? why can a necromancer run full minions and have acces to his Proffesion Mechanic, while I can’t? and Why can a Ranger and Memser have Pet/Clones and still have other Utility? The way you try justify a nerf that ain’t nessacry is simple wrong.

The Weapon kit’s function on a very different way then other weapons, and hence it can’t be compared the way you do…

also, LOOOL at your Turret Comment hahaha

I am not saying taking 4 kits but 2 kits is greater than other profession, and you have an extra 5 new skill with a free utility skill, no profession gets that, that only to engineer. What i am saying is that the basic weapon swap cd should also affect engineer for balance wise.

JinDaVikk.7291:

He really don’t. Dude I’ve TRIED to make turrets work but you didnt read my last post. ENGINEERS HAVE TO TAKE A CONDI REMOVAL.

so 2 utils.

so next… weapon kit or turret? as turrets are single target and suck…. WEAPON KIT!
o look 1 util left…

look turrets need traited. Even then aoe kills them fast.
rifle turret is single target that I cant chose. Low damage
net turret is op in 1v1’s. tpvp isnt 1v1….
thumper? what a stupid joke.
flame… like thumper but will die faster.
yea…. give us engis like 6 util skills then maybe I’ll being turrets too!

Mesmer have to take no condition remover in tpvp for team and 1 stun breaker, theif only have 1 condition remover, no1 say turret is powerful. So when did what i reply to google became at you.

google.3709:

LonelyReaper.8075:

google.3709:

Warrior: you now its coming!
Mesmer: you don’t know who’s coming!
Thief: you don’t know when it coming!
Engi: you know don’t whats coming!

but if you wanna make us all the same, i wouldnt mind my turrets as hard as phantasm ! or ply bar becoming the new backstab! double dmg from behind!

Turret are harder than phantasm untreated and semi treated, so i don’t see the point comparing to a worst pet. Would you like to trade that squishyness and uselessness with a thief other that dps and selfish stealth, i wouldn’t mind. It up to Anet on these stuff.

just by that comment you just lost all credibility LOL! you really don’t play engi >.>

and if my ply bar could crit for 10k, i would consider it :P

I play engi is just the perception of who is saying it. My thief required 3hit+ on a turret and my theif only 1 or 2 hit a phantasm mesmer’s phantasm to kill it, so it all about perception, so i wouldn’t call it i haven’t play an engineer , is that you haven’t played other class against an untraited turret.

Would you like to lose all your epic condition spam and block and no boons for what thief can offer?

google.3709:

Warrior: you now its coming!
Mesmer: you don’t know who’s coming!
Thief: you don’t know when it coming!
Engi: you know don’t whats coming!

but if you wanna make us all the same, i wouldnt mind my turrets as hard as phantasm ! or ply bar becoming the new backstab! double dmg from behind!

Turret are harder than phantasm untraited and semi traited, so i don’t see the point comparing to a worst pet. Would you like to trade that squishyness and uselessness with a thief other that dps and selfish stealth, i wouldn’t mind. It up to Anet on these stuff.

JinDaVikk.7291:

Actually your wrong lonely…

Takes me under a second to find real mesmer. And Yes its easy to guess when they are stealthed.

I can too, depend on which profession too and how much clutter is on screen. Dueling i always know who is the mesmer, in a team fight, you can’t instantly tell who is who unless he moves, so i am not wrong.

JinDaVikk.7291:

Let’s c here… I play Engineer… Experimental Puff and Purple Fleck..

Puff is hgh nade… But your talking about Purple Fleck!

Yes She is 3-4 kit bunker

Flamethrower is useless. (all around)
bomb kit is useless. (unless your a dps, still lame as nades do far better.)
elixir gun… has 4 useful skills+toolbelt. I run this as bunker on legacy.
tool kit… 2 skills both r amazing.
nade kit- nothing for bunking but nice dps.
med kit… always will b better than healing turret…. no matter what….

I generally run tool kit elix c and depending on map other skill and med kit.
rifle/throw nade…. Yes I can out cc a bunker guardian off point and CAP it over him. Yes I can 1v4 on legacy for a minute or more.
Engineers have highest skill cap due to number of skills when rolling 3-4 kits.
downsides…
NO CONDI REMOVAL IN KITS OMFG OMFG OMFG.
We have to run elix c…. or ANY condi build will have field day.
so… not a 4 kit build.
with other kits no stun breaker unless you count blind from flame kit… which its not.
no immobile breaker…. in kits.
so yea having all my util skills gone makes me soooooo op lemme tell ya…

O btw as a bunker they are helpful. As point roamer…. not so much. You will always run elix c or elixir traits. then generally nade kit for damage, as others stink. Then last util for grabs… but lets c I get 1 utility that I can chose? wow I feel special.

Flame thrower is far from useless, and I am talking from a tpvp point of view, not pve and not hot join. I important to know your enemy and know their reaction, that how it promote skill play. GW2 want to be an Esport but have lots of unknown skill animation, overcrowding animation, small tiny animation that no 1 can differentiate, it remind me of how kholer was once at release(so many players died from that small animation he has and still do.) added to that load of aoe animation clutter storm. That why i hate flashing and burning on kholer when we fight him, can’t see a kitten. Same for engineer, no player can react fast enough to their kit swapping and minor animation detail. So I am talking about balance, that why i am pointing this out.

Kharr.5746:

Call yourself a troll, read my post i stated how you got 2 – 3 extra utility slot compared to other classes. Try picking out and process that hobo sack your engineer is wearing on your opponent in this fast pace game. Tell me how unpridictable mesmer and thief are, see if any high ranking, experience, non-hotjoin hero tell you how easy to counter their chain of combo. See how teldoo is playing his 2 kits, 1 weapon and tell me its not strong, even he is a good players the non- existence cooldown is what make him even stronger.

This sounds like you just lack experience identifying the backpacks. Go make an engi and see how easy they are to identify.

FT = ORANGE top
EG = PINK top
Bomb kit = DARK BROWN barrel top
Grenade kit = Funny looking plank top
Healing kit = giant hobo sack

I take it that if you can identify the real mesmer from its clones, you can surely recognize the difference between the distinct colors: PINK, ORANGE, and DARK BROWN, right?

Edit: I forgot to include toolkit, which looks exactly like the bomb kit. That seems like a bug that Anet should fix. Toolkit used to have a distinct look. Not sure when they broke it.

Mesmer clones are awful to pick out, even top players agree. So what i stated stands, it is hard to differentiatie a backpack(which is also on some1 back not face) in the heat of a face pace battle and high animation clutter storm. So no single person can react fast enough in that situation. I have a engineer, so please read carefully before posting something i have reminded a lot of time, it not like i dont have 1 and come for the sake of QQing.