… Also, in WvW, the warrior has some of the best combat mobility, best sustain, best team fight support, best spike damage, mulitple ways to disengages, aoe instant rez, aoe cleanses and heals.
WvW is a different animal than s/tpvp. I get it. I just hate it that balancing is based on s/tpvp which is a tiny portion of the population and no consideration is given to PvE and WvW.
So you are talking about balancing a game mode where scrubs run around in one, two and three-stat gears of varying rarity, in groups of various sizes ranging from soloers to massive zergs, with different actual character levels, on maps the size of all the hotjoin servers combined AND complaining that balance is based on pvp (WvW is no pvp, it’s a hybrid mode), while us pvpers could have gotten balance changes weekly if devs didn’t have to consider fractal junkies and wvw zerglings while doing those changes.
Stahp… breathe…think…think again…don’t forget the breathe part… get it?
EDIT: Oh, and by the way, do you all still think this change is about ele? It’s as much, if not more about thieves and warriors. Anet needed to boost thief mobility (since they’re taking their damage) and warrior mobility (since they need it desperately) while also bringing down elementalist overall (since they were too hard to kill while doing other stuff well enough). This is about thieves getting to shine as roamers more and warriors being less kite-able, while also preventing eles from escaping with low HP to heal back up. The alternative to this change would have been increase in range and decrease in cost of other classes’ mobility skills, but that’d be just crazy. Would you like to see a thief infiltrator arrow from one point to another, or warrior finishing you off with whirlwind just as your RTL ended?
I’m complaining that balancing is based on a kittenty/dying game mode. If s/tpvp is booming place for competitive 1v1, 5v5, 10vs10, and GvG, I’m all about balancing based on it. But it’s not. It is in the kittenter, so why should I care? I don’t care but you paid for the game too so you should be entitled to whatever game mode you pick. We’re all paying customers so at least they should give some consideration to all 3 different game mode. Is that too much to ask for?
in WvW, the warrior has some of the best combat mobility, best sustain, best team fight support, best spike damage, mulitple ways to disengages, aoe instant rez, aoe cleanses and heals.
WvW is a different animal than s/tpvp. I get it. I just hate it that balancing is based on s/tpvp which is a tiny portion of the population and no consideration is given to PvE and WvW.
WvsW is fine the way it is because noone cares about balance there, there’s no balance in wvsw, it’s already terribly umbalanced due to gear, levels, zergs…and zergs and zergs..and btw this is spvp forum and noone gives a single kitten bout stupid wvsw here…try to complain on wvsw forum, but i don’t think it would be an important thread anyway…until random ppl can zerg around faceroling other random ppl like chickens it’s ok, wvsw doesn’t need skills so it doesn’t need to be so balanced…who has the best gear/biggest zerg only matters…no skill or single class balance needed thet’s why wvsw is paired with pve and pvp is on a totally different area of the game..
“PvP is on a totally different area of the game…”
They should keep it that way not sure why it is impacting PvE and WvW.
They can’t do kitten about it without destroying the thief class at this point, so nothing will happen.
Pretty much this. The only thing that they could do to “nerf” d/p thieves is to put revelead when popping out of stealth even when you don’t attack. But this would affect more other builds (d/d, s/d) than d/p.
It is so easy to balance it.
Put a CD of 5-10 on infusion of shadow and remove Patience.
So if ele’s want to fully utilize rtl, they’re actually going to have to use it strategically, and effectively.
And the big deal is, what again?
There is no deal. That’s the funny part.
Only class to get penalize for it???? Just make it the same for all other class then. No big deal right? Rush will be on a 40 sec CD if it misses. Infil Arrow will cost 12 init instead of 6 if it doesn blind anyone. etc
You forget the part where warrior skills are affected by chills and cripples, and the part where warrior doesn’t have any spec that has the best mobility in the game, best sustain, best team fight support, decent spike damage, best disengages in the game, aoe cleanses and heals.
Should I go on?
You forget the part where warriors skills are not affected by immob (if spec for it) and with swiftness the range is actually 1450. Also, in WvW, the warrior has some of the best combat mobility, best sustain, best team fight support, best spike damage, mulitple ways to disengages, aoe instant rez, aoe cleanses and heals.
WvW is a different animal than s/tpvp. I get it. I just hate it that balancing is based on s/tpvp which is a tiny portion of the population and no consideration is given to PvE and WvW.
Take this from an experienced player with a thief…. Prepare to be dominated by good guardians. Unless you play very smart and patiently, any guardian you meet worth his salt that’s anti-melee will demolish you. So many blocks/blinds/CC…eugh… Good luck though.
Take this from an experienced player with a thief. If a guardian ever stomps you 1v1, you’re doing somethign wrong.
I feel bad for Eles with the upcoming RTL change. If your playstyle is roaming, you’re so kittened vs other classes it not even funny. The only thing you can do now is stay within 1200 range of spawn, towers, and keeps.
Not sure why they are pushing this change to PvE and WvW where non-bunker s/d/d eles will feel the nerf the hardest.
I think I might be able to help you understand what the problem is.
It’s not how the elementalist’s mobility compares to anyone else; it’s about the fact that elementalists can disengage safely and reliably at a time of their choosing, and are too difficult to kill.
Now either everyone elses experience of Elementalists stems from the fact that Elementalists are just plain better players by their very nature, or that there is a balance issue which needs to be addressed.
You’re wasting your time comparing Elementalist and Warrior abilities, the same way I’d be if I compared Necro mobility to Thief mobility. ANet have a design in mind, they have made their decisions and are enacting them in a few days.
As they say in Eve online:
“Adapt or die”
I chase Ele’s down all the time in WvW on my thief. Not hard to catch up with them. Thief is the only class that can disengage safely and reliably not the Ele….
This might be a bit off topic but are you D/P also?
Nope. Don’t need d/p when I have a near instant 2500 range gap closer.
I think I might be able to help you understand what the problem is.
It’s not how the elementalist’s mobility compares to anyone else; it’s about the fact that elementalists can disengage safely and reliably at a time of their choosing, and are too difficult to kill.
Now either everyone elses experience of Elementalists stems from the fact that Elementalists are just plain better players by their very nature, or that there is a balance issue which needs to be addressed.
You’re wasting your time comparing Elementalist and Warrior abilities, the same way I’d be if I compared Necro mobility to Thief mobility. ANet have a design in mind, they have made their decisions and are enacting them in a few days.
As they say in Eve online:
“Adapt or die”
I chase Ele’s down all the time in WvW on my thief. Not hard to catch up with them. Thief is the only class that can disengage safely and reliably not the Ele….
Last Refuge Use Blinding Powder when your health reaches 25% (90-second cooldown. Descent of Shadows Release blinding powder when you take falling damage. Take 50% less damage from falling.
Instinctual Response Use feathers to blind and stealth when you take more than 10% of your health in a single strike. This effect can only trigger once every 60 seconds.
Now we have Traits that gives us 3 second reveal debuff every time we hit 25% HP, or fall down, or on hit.
Hip hip Hooray for 3 useless traits now!
I don’t see how this changes these traits. I can’t think of one time I took fall damage then instantly had to go into stealth when stealth wore off?
Last refuge and DiS are still the same as well. They are only good if you aren’t fighting to begin with otherwise they would boht screw you over with reveal anyway. Nothing changes there.
Don’t forget they are going to bump our mobility as well. So if you need to get away, you will be able to when any one of those pop (we already can for the most part)
Anet also said they will buff Ranger’s useless utilities and it has been 5 months…
Buffs/nerfs will be in the game if they say it is in the patch note like they did with the reveal debuff.
If not, everything is subject to change and based on their track record I wouldn’t hold my breath (regarding the buffs).
Last Refuge Use Blinding Powder when your health reaches 25% (90-second cooldown. Descent of Shadows Release blinding powder when you take falling damage. Take 50% less damage from falling.
Instinctual Response Use feathers to blind and stealth when you take more than 10% of your health in a single strike. This effect can only trigger once every 60 seconds.
Now we have Traits that gives us 3 second reveal debuff every time we hit 25% HP, or fall down, or on hit.
Did not watch “sotg” but this is a big joke right? What’s the point of playing a thief if they are going to basically kill stealth? Guess it’s time to re-roll another class.
Developers going full…you know what.
Chain stealth had little to no impact on tpvp. This is purely in response to WvW.
Yeah how well did that work out for the dinosaurs? The velociraptors were experts in the art of stealth and ever since that K-T Event patch hit nerfing every class, the entire system fell. The same will happen to us man.
Haha what? So this is like a meteor hitting the Thief planet? This doesn’t have any effect on any normal fight. It will make Thief vs Thief way less annoying for one. Even 1v5 or so, you come out and take a few swings then re-enter stelath otherwise you aren’t doing any damage. It only stops Thieves from doing C&D DPS every 3 seconds to regen health instead of running to reset if they start losing. Really not a big deal. You will still be able to bail when you are starting to go down, you just can’t actually stay in the middle of the 5 of them and regen all your health. If they were going to nerf stealth, this is probably the best case scenario.
Chain stealth is a playstyle and quite frankly it increases the thief’s survivability so they can fight toe to toe vs other classes. To me, this nerf put our survivability at the bottom of the barrel. This is speaking from a D/D WvW perceptive.
I play a thief and an ele because they are the few classes that can 1vsX. If thief can’t do that anymore, I might go back to the ele. Sorry, but I’m not going to play a water down Warrior with slightly more mobility. Oh well, only time will tell…
Hi, I am the author of Unseen and Deathess + Slayer Thief – and I am also a good friend of Soko D Medo. I’d like to clarify the strengths and weaknesses of Dagger/Pistol (0/10/30/30/0).
In the context of WvW, this allows you to constantly apply pressure to a disorganized zerg. As long as you are present, their Staff Eles, Rangers, Grenadiers and so on are all threatened. It doesn’t matter if you’re only able to engage 1 person at a time. You are like a living condition debuff on the entire zerg, constantly removing/disabling players one at a time. Removing you requires the attention of several players, which leaves the enemy zerg vulnerable to an allied push.
Unfortunately the most you can do to organized zergs like Red Guard is tail them (powerful in its own right, but that’s a topic for another time). When every one of your available targets is located inside a kill-zone, there is nothing your regeneration, blinds, and evasion can do to kill even one of them. Your role is to cull the weak and the lonely, and no one in Red Guard is weak or lonely. Even if you manage to catch someone away from the zerg, you have about 5 – 10 seconds to kill them before 2 more zerglings arrives.
In sPvP, the Dagger/Pistol is god mode for hot-joins and low level tournaments. Because almost everything’s a 1v1 duel. Even if 5 players hunt you, you can keep them busy as long as you play defensively.
However your utility in high level tournaments is dramatically reduced. You can duel a bunker Elementalist or Guardian for eons, but you will never be able to take the point from her (all damage is nerfed in sPvP, and every point will have a bunker on it). If you decide to ignore the bunkers, you must face the enemy 4-man group of AOE burst builds (maybe one bunker among them) – designed to wipe other 4-man groups let alone one Thief.
Dagger/Pistol only shines 100% of the time in WvW scouting, and WvW duels (although you’ll have some trouble against Phantasm Mesmers in the duels because Phantasmal duelists are almost another player unto themselves). I’ve had multiple people show me variants of Dagger/Pistol and I’ve experimented with many different modifications myself, but the only other effective implementation I’ve seen is essentially a camping perma-stealth Steal-Backstab Thief (by Noell of Jade Quarry).
Any questions?
Pretty much sum up the entire thread. D/D can’t have their cake and eat it too. Know when to engage and when not too.
I’m 50/50 in a wvw duel vs you (die once to you and I killed you once) so I don’t feel too bad.
So BG is the new SoS which was the old SBI which was the old HoD and so on…….
Yes. But Id like to hear some intense speculation on where they will jump ship to next.
BG doesn’t jump ship, ever. Certain guilds may but as a whole we have been more stable than any other server in the game. We’ve dropped from T1 twice with no bandwagoners leaving and here we are back in T1 for a third time kicking your kitten
You can troll all you like, it doesn’t matter to us, we just keep fighting.
BG doesn’t jump ship….
Every server that reach the top will eventually fall. How long a server can stay up top depends on several factors but no doubt it will fall. Being number 1 is a curse disguise as a blessing.
I would just like to point out this is completely false, this person obviously has no idea how to play D/P correctly. The burst opener for D/D is Cloak and Dagger + Steal (used during the CnD cast), and then backstab, with damage coming from CnD, Mug trait (damage on Steal), and then a backstab. The burst opener of D/P is Blinding Powder + Heartseeker, Steal (while you are mid-air from Heartseeker), and then backstab, with damage coming from Heartseeker, Mug, and then backstab. Most players do not realize that Heartseeker and Mug hit BEFORE you stealth, allowing for a backstab. The burst combo for D/P is equivalent if not superior to D/D opener.
look at the traits son.
you do know how to trait for d/p right?
Are you saying there’s only one build for d/p?
P.S. Don’t call other people “son.” That kitten is rude.
Run a X/D build in WvW? Enemy in stealth so you don’t have a target to CnD?
What if I told you there’s a plethora of mobs with static AI that you can use to CnD into stealth?
That’s what I did eventually. I lured him to a part of the map with mobs. Then it becomes a game of cat and mouse. The tricky part is getting him/her to follow you…
I’m a balance build BS thief. If I was more glass cannon, I don’t think I would’ve a problem, just need luck for steal/cnd/bs to all crit for 20k damage
d/p is a slightly more advanced build and required the player to have better understanding of game mechanisms. DPS doesn’t come as straight forward kitten d or d/d, and stealth is produced from combofield+finisher instead of pressing a button.
The players with d/p setup therefore tend to be more experienced and likely harder to beat, especially for a thief with a different build/setup.
main downside of d/p is the lack of reliable burst dps. Their opening isn’t as deadly, which meant they have a higher chance of getting burst down if you opened correctly.
Sorry, I think D/D are harder to play because you can’t make a mistake. D/P, you can afford 1 or 2 mistake especially against melee due to blind from bp and stealth combo field. At least with D/D, you have to try to land cnd.
Utilize your death blossom, don’t forget, it’s not just there to apply bleeds, it’s also an evade.
Once you see the smoke field, they’re most likely gonna hs to you, that’s when u death blossom to counter their blind and prevent their stealth, and u should be within range still to CnD and stealth yourself giving u the upper hand.
Deathblossom uses alot of ini too so don’t forget to manage your initiative
Do you even know how to play a D/P? I don’t want to come off as an kitten but your advice doesn’t make sense at all.
As a balance build D/D thief, how do I win vs a D/P thief? They are basically perma stealth and when you do catch them outside of stealth, BP really messes me to. Any advice?
