Guild Wars 2

RedSpectrum.1975:

I can’t watch the video yet but, does this build get destroyed by conditions? That’s the only reason I have rarely used impacting disruption over escapists absolution

It is weak to conditions, but it has 20k health, so if I’m against 2 or more people with at least one of them being a condi build I have time to run.

So I wanted to try out a new build with the new Daredevil line with a brawler style build in mind. Pulmonary Impact hits like a truck. With Daredevil runes you can get some decent backstabs and heartseekers still. I wanted to upload a raw game if anyone was interested in giving it a whirl.

The Build

The Video

I tried it with S/P, but it wasn’t as successful.

Sorry for any of the clunkiness in combat. I’m getting used to the build and the action cam still.

~6k Total Headshot attached.

FeelsAlright.5860:

Maugetarr.6823:

Well, it’s not that bad. The offensive lines are largely great but could use a couple of tweaks to individual skills.

SA is largely fine, but could use a few trait reordering and combinations.

Acro is in poor shape, especially considering how much more effective Daredevil is at the few mediocre traits Acro has (Don’t Stop versus Unhindered Combatant for example). I think rolling Feline Grace into Enforcer Training and then just redoing the entire Acro line would be great for both. Acro could be themed to Infiltration Arts and modify stuff like shadowsteps and emphasize some boon stealing/corruption traits.

Trickery is in good shape. Preparedness should be rolled into thief baseline and bountiful theft moved to that minor master position. The CD reduction on Sleight of Hand should also be rolled baseline.

Daredevil is in pretty decent shape.

Traps are horrible (outside of trapper runes).
Venoms are mediocre.
Tricks need adjustments.
Deception and signet skills are good and used by what seems like 99% of thieves.

SA trait wise is in good shape, its just that other classes hard counter the trait line with a button push. There is a lot of reveal flying around making the trait line unplayable.

I would also argue that daredevil has to work much harder to sustain compared to the other elite spec.

Well for SA something along the lines of combining concealed defeat and last refuge, then cutting out the parts that are largely complained about. So it would end up being something like “Drop a smokescreen (3 second duration, recharge 30 seconds) when hit below 25% health. Reduce the recharge of deception skills.” The main complaints I’ve seen is that people don’t like the autoproc stealth and concealed defeat actually reveals where you are. Why not combine aspects of both into a skill that could be useful instead of a liability. CiS could still be moved back down to master tier.

You might be right about Daredevil being harder to sustain than other elite specs, but I was playing DA/CS/Trick S/D before HoT so my baseline is a little weird on that. Fighting dragon hunters is the only thing that makes me want to slam my head into the keyboard. Feels like it has a little more sustain and a little less damage with DA/Trick/Dare.

lvis.3824:

Imho thief is not as far behind as the forum represents it .

But ppl have to adapt and figure out working build combinations.
If you overbuff thief now the situation will be much worse .-

Well, it’s not that bad. The offensive lines are largely great but could use a couple of tweaks to individual skills.

SA is largely fine, but could use a few trait reordering and combinations.

Acro is in poor shape, especially considering how much more effective Daredevil is at the few mediocre traits Acro has (Don’t Stop versus Unhindered Combatant for example). I think rolling Feline Grace into Enforcer Training and then just redoing the entire Acro line would be great for both. Acro could be themed to Infiltration Arts and modify stuff like shadowsteps and emphasize some boon stealing/corruption traits.

Trickery is in good shape. Preparedness should be rolled into thief baseline and bountiful theft moved to that minor master position. The CD reduction on Sleight of Hand should also be rolled baseline.

Daredevil is in pretty decent shape.

Traps are horrible (outside of trapper runes).
Venoms are mediocre.
Tricks need adjustments.
Deception and signet skills are good and used by what seems like 99% of thieves.

As people have been saying, it’s about learning the mob and what attacks you need to dodge. It’s not for relaxed play.

Thief is still a lot of fun in PvE, both HoT and core. I ran a fractal (Thaumanova) today that ended up with 4 thieves+1 necro and worked out just fine. I’ve done some of the map meta events in HoT and can’t say I’ve died more or less than any particular class there. Thieves have problems with the defensive lines, but offensively we’re still alright. One thing I have to say is that I have the most fun on my thief.

Auesis.7301:

clown.7148:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYzs5r8oMak

He showcase both D/D and Staff PvE-

Not very well. He admits in the comments that Staff is better but harder to execute, while in the video he claims it’s identical or could come close but it’s just a novelty. That’s a pretty big disparity.

The key principle is that if you can land all 3 hits of Weakening Charge consistently (which doesn’t take a lot of practise), Staff is better. Else, Dagger is better.

I need to do some more testing, but so far, stealing into weakening strikes keeps you stationary during weakening charge, making landing all 3 hits easier.Yeah, that’s only once every 21 seconds, but for PvP it could be a decent burst/opener. I need to do some more tests for consistency, but so far that’s been my experience in PvE.

Ravoku.1852:

Maugetarr.6823:

Ravoku.1852:

Maugetarr.6823:

An idea for how to make sword more fluid:

#1.1-1.3) Reduce the pre/post casts to make the entire chain 2.0 seconds long. Reduce the coefficients to 0.65, 0.65, and 1.05 (this is actually a 2% increase to AA DPS). Leave the weakness and cripple duration at 2 seconds

I can’t say I’d be against a small damage shave to make it that fast. However, if the devs are against cutting it down to ~2 seconds, I think just speeding it up 10% to put it at ~2.25 and calling it a day would be fair as well. You can even test what this would feel like if you have the speed mushrooms from Itzel lore. I have, and it’s just noticeable enough. Not too fast, not too slow.

But this is a 2% damage buff. I think having it sped up to 2 seconds would minimize the chance of being stuck in an aftercast when needing to use headshot or flanking strike.

Yes, I saw that it’s a 2% DPS buff. When I say I’m okay with a damage shave, I mean I’d be willing to part with a shave to the base damage values if it were lowered that drastically. However, I’m not confident the devs would be willing to lower it that much to be as fast as dagger. That’s why I offered a middle ground of 10% as a start w/o a damage loss to put it more in line to what the others are doing.

It’s also worth mentioning that the condition durations are way off between the 3. Sword’s cripple + weakness last only 2s in addition to being slowest to access, while dagger and staff have 6s on poison and 8s on vulnerability respectively, with faster access.

Lastly, speeding up sword alone won’t address the aftercast bug because it’s not a byproduct of sword’s slowness. You can trigger the additional ~0.5 second delay with the Speed Mushroom boost as well as having Quickness on. It’s a bug in its own right and needs to be addressed individually.

I think it would be more acceptable for them to reduce the milliseconds of aftercast on the skills and the coefficients than to give AA DPS a 10% boost. Consequently, S/X would become more viable due to to the higher weakness and cripple uptime and the increase in fluidity of the other skills on the bar not being locked behind a pre/aftercast.

Ravoku.1852:

Maugetarr.6823:

An idea for how to make sword more fluid:

#1.1-1.3) Reduce the pre/post casts to make the entire chain 2.0 seconds long. Reduce the coefficients to 0.65, 0.65, and 1.05 (this is actually a 2% increase to AA DPS). Leave the weakness and cripple duration at 2 seconds

I can’t say I’d be against a small damage shave to make it that fast. However, if the devs are against cutting it down to ~2 seconds, I think just speeding it up 10% to put it at ~2.25 and calling it a day would be fair as well. You can even test what this would feel like if you have the speed mushrooms from Itzel lore. I have, and it’s just noticeable enough. Not too fast, not too slow.

But this is a 2% damage buff. I think having it sped up to 2 seconds would minimize the chance of being stuck in an aftercast when needing to use headshot or flanking strike.

Doggie.3184:

NO! I like the sneakysnake slither.

Agreed

An idea for how to make sword more fluid:

#1.1-1.3) Reduce the pre/post casts to make the entire chain 2.0 seconds long. Reduce the coefficients to 0.65, 0.65, and 1.05 (this is actually a 2% increase to AA DPS). Leave the weakness and cripple duration at 2 seconds

That was really nice gameplay.

You go way glassier than I do. I try to hit 15k health without stacks. I don’t think I could survive with your health pool. Nice to see someone else using DA/CS/Tr with pack runes.

Kageseigi

Maugetarr.6823:

This is what I’m currently using.

Thank you. It’s interesting because that’s similar to what I’ve been running recently, though with D/P or D/D. I do take Flanking Strike (for the Quickness) and Trickster (for the condi-removal), though. Conditions seem to be the real killer now… and I don’t even know if a Sword would be enough. Sadly, I’ve never been much of a Stealth Thief in PvP, so I don’t utilize Shadow Arts enough for it to be very effective. That’s why I choose Critical Strikes instead.

But again, thank you for sharing :-)

Yeah, sword 2 isn’t enough to handle condis by itself. That’s why I carry the IS, so I can use SoA and Shadow return for burst removal. All the condis can basically be treated like medium sustained direct damage with the exception of big stacks of confusion and virtually any burning over 3 stacks. As long as I don’t try to heal while poisoned, thats strategy usually pays off. Movement impairing skills don’t really bother S/X too much, so as long as burning isn’t constantly reapplied or covered with a lot of cover, I find it managable, which is why I just bring burst removal.

Jana.6831:

What I tried to say: even if Thief damage or sustain (armor right now, I guess) were buffed; it wouldn’t change that the rest of the game is off – so either way it would be a quick fix which in the end wouldn’t change much.
So, if anet is serious about their Esports thingy, they will notice at some point that the damage is too high and the passives as well – so they will have to lower the damage (and buffs) and I hope that they will then remember the special snowflake which is thief – the class that can’t be brushed over because it needs high damage because of so little sustain.

Edit: I hope you get my point: The whole game is off – every fix to thief wouldn’t fix the core. Every fix to the core might further nerf thief if not handeled carefully.

I’m going to disagree with you here. The game is actually pretty close to being balanced imo. There are some outliers here and there in both directions, thief just happens to be in the underpowered direction when it comes to sustained fighting. Condis are actually pretty close to in line now (in PvP) including burning if they would limit the sources/duration of it. Our offensive lines are in good shape. Trickery is in good shape but needs to have a couple of things rolled into baseline thief to make it not as necessary (preparedness, CD reduction of steal from SoH). Shadow arts if semi-okay. It needs some moving around of traits, consolidation, and a couple of replacements. Acro needs the serious rework. My vote is to still roll FG into Enforcer training, thus rounding out DrD nicely and allowing them to just re-theme Acro into something else entirely (I like the idea of shadowstep buffs and boon hate like a manipulation themed line). P/P needs retheming like acro (so P1, P2, and P/P3). D/D3 & X/D need minor work.
From an sPvP perspective, it’s not that bad. Ele sustain with meta D/D might still be a little strong. Other than ele, mesmer is the only one I really see consistent complaints about but I couldn’t tell you how to nerf either of those without messing them up.

Kageseigi.2150:

Maugetarr.6823:

Our output isn’t that bad actually if you’re traited for it.

But… I almost always trait for damage :-(

I guess I’m really not a fan of all the passive defensive procs these days :-(

However, I am always open to suggestions! :-D
Which are the best builds for damage?

This is what I’m currently using.

Here’s a video of how it plays. In the video I had a Sigil of Bloodlust that I’ve since switched out for a Sigil of Rage. Look at the damage on the necro. The damage on the engis was good considering how tanky they were (I had played them previously on my ele). Eventually I’ll have more videos up instead of recycling this one for threads, but I don’t have a lot of spare time right now so I’d rather be playing than editing. After I finish a hurdle within the next month I might be able to put up more, but the damage is similar in all the games I’ve played since.

Without a set team though, surviving can be tricky, which is why I say that I really feel like I make a decisive build choice with thief.

Edit: My warrior which is the example I use for feeling like I have both survivability and damage on other classes. (Not great gameplay, but I liked the game)

Our output isn’t that bad actually if you’re traited for it. The problem is that traiting for damage significantly affects our survivability. On my warrior, for example, I feel like I can take 1 offensive line and 1 defensive line and still put out excellent sustained damage with good survivability. With my thief I feel like I am making a hard decision between the two and not able to take both simultaneously. What’s worse is our non-stealth defensive line is in pretty shabby condition, so our build choices are pretty limited; there’s no real sustain build anymore that doesn’t rely on stealth.

cakeonroof.7385:

I wonder if the most common rankings on this thread will still apply tomorrow

Great:

Chronomancer
Reaper
Scrapper

Good:

Herald
Druid

Meh:

Berserker
Tempest
Daredevil
Dragonhunter

If not, what do changes would you make based on class announcements so far

If ‘m understanding the question right that you asked at the end, to move daredevil up to somewhere in between where it is now and good tier, I’d roll Feline Grace or some other endurance regen into the Daredevil line and then just redesign Acro around shadowsteps and boon hate instead. Daredevil is way more cohesive than Acro and has similar traits that are better, so you might as well add in the endurance regen trait and give Acro its own identity (probably renaming it in the process).

meepeY.2867:

Maugetarr.6823:

meepeY.2867:

I like to run Infiltrators Signet over Agility because then it allows me to be very cheeky with my distance and gap closers. Rangers Point Blank Shot is made redundant because I’m back in their faces straight away.

Why not both?

Shadow Refuge and Shadowstep (a must take) are both really good.

Shadow Refuge mainly in sPvp so you can revive downed friends easier – It gives you party support. In WvW it’s also very strong for running away or resetting an unfavorable fight. It’s very strong against D/P Thieves who also use it because then you’re back on an even playing field. I personally value it higher than Signet of Agility.

Fair enough. I tend to forego SR due to all the knockbacks in PvP. I’ve had both SoA and IS save me at times depending on who I’m fighting so I just take both of those now instead, especially when combined with Signets of Power. Taking IS also great because it allows me to blow Shadow Return for the condi removal and still have a stunbreak.

meepeY.2867:

I like to run Infiltrators Signet over Agility because then it allows me to be very cheeky with my distance and gap closers. Rangers Point Blank Shot is made redundant because I’m back in their faces straight away.

Why not both?

So I came to the conclusion that the best way to play S/D currently is to replicate the old 26006 build. DA/CS/Tr makes you actually deal a great amount of damage with just the autos. I’d recommend giving it a try, just make sure you have at least 15k health.
For S/D, basically giving up one of the damage lines for the (current) defensive line is a poor tradeoff because neither synergize well enough with the set.

Bllade.1029:

Maugetarr.6823:

Silverbolt.2301:

Lithril Ashwalker.6230:

Supposedly in the post about WHAO on ranger’s boon copying mechanics, they are working on a way to copy duration etc statically…now if they are working on this, could they not work on Bountiful theft to actually steal STACKS and DURATION of an enemy instead of 1stack of might from a 25 stacked enemy to help change the tide of battle?

You have really high hopes of them buffing the base thief class, don’t you? Bountiful theft isn’t even close to being the problem with trickery or thief.

No, but trickery being almost mandatory is. Preparedness needs to be rolled into baseline, while BT could then be put in that minor slot, but have it not share boons. Then there could be a major trait that whenever you steal a boon, you share it with your nearby allies, so S/D (Larcenous Strike) would be able to fulfill more of a teamfight role if traited for it. The full duration and stacks thing would be a nice QoL change though.

I don’t know about baseline, but I agree Trickery is almost mandatory now a days with the initiative cost of most weapon abilities.

I don’t think Thief should have more access to boons, but rather more access to REMOVE the boon meta from Spvp. Boon’s, especially defensive boons, are a passive skill floor decrease without any real counter in the game other than convsersion necros.

Imo, there should be more available negative consequences to the boon meta and I think Thief can fulfill it’s manifest destiny and finally embrace what it is.

Just preparedness, not trickery as a whole. Well, I’d also like to see the base CD of Steal at 25 seconds, but remove the CD reduction from Sleight of Hand. Having 3 more initiative is huge for thief, and steal is mediocre unless heavily traited. These two changes would help make trickery a little less manditory imo.

Adding more boon hate to thief could definitely help as well. I think if they moved Feline Grace into Enforcer Training, they could retheme Acrobatics into something that involves improving shadowsteps and debuffing enemies. Daredevil is just way more cohesive as an acrobatic fighter, so we might as well pull the plug on acro and give it it’s own identity.

Silverbolt.2301:

Lithril Ashwalker.6230:

Supposedly in the post about WHAO on ranger’s boon copying mechanics, they are working on a way to copy duration etc statically…now if they are working on this, could they not work on Bountiful theft to actually steal STACKS and DURATION of an enemy instead of 1stack of might from a 25 stacked enemy to help change the tide of battle?

You have really high hopes of them buffing the base thief class, don’t you? Bountiful theft isn’t even close to being the problem with trickery or thief.

No, but trickery being almost mandatory is. Preparedness needs to be rolled into baseline, while BT could then be put in that minor slot, but have it not share boons. Then there could be a major trait that whenever you steal a boon, you share it with your nearby allies, so S/D (Larcenous Strike) would be able to fulfill more of a teamfight role if traited for it. The full duration and stacks thing would be a nice QoL change though.

The sweet spot I aim for is 15k health, 45% crit chance before buffs, traits, or food. I don’t usually add toughness.

Okay. Since a lot of thieves, myself included, think that DrD could use some better endurance regen traits, I have a suggestion that I think would reconcile the problem of DrD and Acro being too powerful in conjunction with each other if that happened.

Take Feline Grace and just roll it into Enforcer Training. Yes. I know. That means we basically got acrobatics as our elite spec, but honestly, the other minor and major traits synergize much better with what acrobatics should have been. So let’s just strip the 1 trait people used to take acro for, use it to round out Daredevil in a balanced way, and retheme Acro around mobility instead.

Unhindered combatant is already a better version of Don’t Stop and Expeditious Dodger. The lines just have too much overlap for the decent skills and DrD is more cohesive as a whole.

So as much as I don’t like it, I think thief would benefit overall by moving FG and just replacing acro as a whole.

PopeUrban.2578:

babazhook.6805:

Maugetarr.6823:

babazhook.6805:

Guarded Initiation becomes

On shadowstep to target transfer weakness, vulnerability and slow to target. Gain XXX health for each stack transferred. (thus if you transfer 23 stacks vuln 1 slow one weakness you gain 25*xxx health)

I really would like to see some shadowstep modifiers.

Yes. A Thief has about 8 shadowsteps in the kitten nal. These are begging to be modified and would create a very unique flavor of theif and different style of play.

I actually wrote up a whole trait line about this!

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Mobility-Arts-A-replacement-for-Acrobatics/first#post5569628

I’m not sure I’d want almost every trait to focus on shadowsteps, but 1 major trait per tier and 1 minor would be a great start. I would have liked to see some in combat traits also, but now that I really think about it, they might as well roll FG into enforcer training to round out that line and then replace acrobatics with a different theme entirely.

Edit: Crap….. now that I think about it more, as much as I dislike the premise, DrD has better versions of every trait that could be considered “acrobatic” in the acro line. FG would round out DrD, making it a strong specialization, and the rest of acro could be made into a coherent line based around thief mobility. Arg….

….Karl….. please consider it.

babazhook.6805:

Guarded Initiation becomes

On shadowstep to target transfer weakness, vulnerability and slow to target. Gain XXX health for each stack transferred. (thus if you transfer 23 stacks vuln 1 slow one weakness you gain 25*xxx health)

I really would like to see some shadowstep modifiers.

babazhook.6805:

Maugetarr.6823:

babazhook.6805:

Maugetarr.6823:

babazhook.6805:

Maugetarr.6823:

babazhook.6805:

Maugetarr.6823:

babazhook.6805:

PopeUrban.2578:

BrunoBRS.5178:

babazhook.6805:

BrunoBRS.5178:

babazhook.6805:

BIRDPUNCHER.8263:

Nike.2631:

Woaden.9425:

The issue now is that Acro needs a lot of love on it’s own, it can’t stand as its own line: Pain Response is a terrible condi clear (at the very least it needs to add torment and confusion), Guarded Initiation is useless, and the GM’s are outshined by minor-adept/minor-master traits in other lines, making the entire Acro line redundant on so many levels!

((looks at Assassin’s Reward))

((looks at raids being built around continuous unavoidable damage))

I can’t say I agree.

If you need continuous healing in PvE (I say PvE because you mention raids) Invigorating Precision is a better choice, in a better traitline, than Assassin’s Reward. The only time that Acro “stands as its own line” is gimmick situations like laser disarming in Aether fractal, and even then it will be made obsolete when Daredevil is live.

If you are going power certainly. If you are going condition in a unicorn build IP is a poor choice. IP needs high crits and high damage per crit. Assassins reward the damage is immaterial.

That all said without changes assassins reward does not warrant a GM trait. It needs a significant increase in its healing per INI and with its scaling to healing attribute.

It currently 69*INI +.05 healing and should be closer to 90 healing base and .15 healing. This would put its heal more in line with IP.

not that condi builds have a good reason to run acro in the first place. they probably want DA and trickery, and SA if they go for venoms. that leaves a choice between acro and daredevil. daredevil might not have a lot to offer in volume of traits, but the few traits condi users can benefit from are great, plus it gives access to impairing daggers. meanwhile acro… meh?

Actually there is(and more was) good reason to take Acro in a condition build .

dd/acro/da works well as does dd/acro/trickery. I used acro prior to the big patch because it gave health and a lot of dodges for the D/d set. In beta I ran tests with acro and the difference between traiting trickery and acro was not a lot.

Now it true many of the additions to DD make what is acro less desired from before patch but this is also true of power builds. If ACRO fixed i can forsee condition builds using it. Just as example HTC will refill endurance when triggered which can mean three more impaling lotus. This more condition damage loaded than one can get from BA or that extra 3 ini.

With the changes to Potent Poison the DA line is a little harder to give up in a condition build but i can certainly forsee someone going for maximum endurance for those dodges and that impaling lotus so as to increase condition damage and specifically in a d/d build and especially if the line is fixed.

it’s not just bewildering ambush, it’s caltrops on dodge as well, and bountiful theft gives you solid vigor uptime on top of stealing boons (to get rid of that resistance). then you have the reduced steal cooldown, which means endurance thief can be used more often as well.

not bringing DA is just out of question unless you’re running P/D condi, because dagger training + potent poison is a huge DPS increase.

which leaves acro competing with daredevil, which just isn’t happening.

IMO, acro should be a better defensive line, themed around vigor (and making your vigor do more cool stuff, like how other professions have “gain X benefit when you gain Y boon”), keeping the thief mobile, and defensive/utility benefits through dodging (whereas daredevil is all about using dodges offensively). the line in itself is already pointing towards that, it’s just grossly undertuned (swindler’s equilibrium being restricted to sword and only recharging one second, when trickery just outright takes those seconds off the max cooldown, for example) and clunky (pain response only removes 3 of the current 5 damaging conditions, only triggers if you let yourself get hit, and can be triggered when you don’t want it to, putting it on a long 20s CD)

to note: i’d still love a thief trait that cleanses one condition on shadowstep, which would be a perfect fit for an acro trait. i know it’s ridiculously strong, so make it a GM, and put assassin’s reward back on master tier where it belongs.

In all the suggestions about buffing acro I hadn’t really considered “extra vigor benefits” (heck, I myself invented a whole line around shadowsteps just to replace acro)

However, yeah, why not? What about “vigor also grants swiftness” or “reflect ranged attacks in a 1s ICD while you have vigor” or “When you gain vigor, reduce revealed by 1 second” or “lose 2 conditions every X second while you have vigor” or “gaining vigor also breaks stuns, and skills that grant vigor can be used while stunned”

So, like, you’d have this cadence, as you’d have a line that couldn’t give 100% uptime by itself, but similar to shadow arts, was built around “attack” and “defend” phases, only in stead of being invisible you’d just be rather hard to pin down even when you weren’t dodging?

If done right it could be a massive sustain line rivaling SA, and make taking two or three sustain lines actually pay off while nosediving your damage, or just give you real build options without DD for evasive specs.

Like, DD can empower builds to be basically immune to all slows, SA makes you immune to being seen… acro would make you highly resistant to stuns?

I was thinking pain response might work as a proc on vigor trait but then got to thinking it would not really help as you might gain vigor and not have any conditions on and proc the trait.

The types of benefits gleaned from a proc on vigor have to be the types one would always want but it a good suggestion. The problem of course if there too many or the boon/benefit too good they might make it harder to gain vigor in the first place and we back where we started. I think this the reason they dropped the missile avoidance thing if one gained swiftness.

Now given the Acro line inherently grants vigor on a successful evade and given escapists absolution clears a condition on a successful evade, what is the different between a proc on vigor condition cleanse over escapists resolution?

Why would it need a 10 second ICD attached. If it had a 1 second ICD, it would only ever be as powerful as escapist’s absolution, and then only because it’s combined with FG.

Well thats the point. it becomes the exact same skill. Meaning if I trait dd acro I clear 2 conditions on every evade. if one takes Acro line one aways has FG.

It a sort of power creep that can happen in that an evade does more and mrre stuff leading to a situation where a nerf called for because “hey on an evade the thief gets vigor, clears conditions, heals, avoids damage gets swiftness gets…..” and that too much.! nerf it!

Well you’d be taking 2 rather defensive lines at that point missing out on a lot of damage. You’d basically be making a bunker thief.

Indeed but it would lead to calls for a nerf and certain skills LIKE the withdraw heal would become even more powerful. RFI would all but supplant shadowstep and so on. There an overload of benefits on one game element. (evade)

Are you saying it would be bad if we could have another playstyle fulfilling another role? The thing is I don’t think it would be any more powerful than any other bunker spec because of the loss of damage. It wouldn’t even have the might stacking of the bruiser specs (i.e. cantrip D/D ele)

i was editing as you responded. In the last patch burning fires was changed so that eles no longer gain might on using a cantrip. If you read the eles threads many were finding that cantrips provided so many benefits when traited that is all people were taking.

What happnes if we stack too much stuff into one facet of play is we limit the build variety. “On evade” is getting enough events triggered off it. I think we are better served looking for another trigger type.

As example On using a teleport skill GAIN XXXX is much more desirable then more on evade type traits in acro.

The difference is we aren’t getting offense out of our defense, we are trading one for the other. We would lose key offensive multipliers and triggers like the 10% from DA, mug, and panic strike. It’s not like they nerfed the survivability of ele, they nerfed the offense while being so survivable. Stacking these skills would be like post nerf ele: very defensive, but not as overwhelming offensively. That said, I don’t think it would be anywhere near as strong because it lacks the might stacking and the majority of heals that ele has available. It would just have good resistance to condis, something that thief currently lacks right now. Also, since you mentioned giving up BT for trickster, that’s a significant loss of utility, reinforcing the idea that we are trading offense and utility to create a (potential) bunker spec.

Look at the thread in my signature though, because you used one of my other ideas as a preferable trait in your example. I think it would be nice if we could build control/bunker thieves that are meant to survive in trade for our damage.

I reviewed all of those suggestions before. Look my premise is this. We have other skills and traits as theives that we should emphasize more then evade. this is for the sake of build variety. I think we are in a nice place with the ON EVADE traits as is and making vigor a trigger is just another on evade trait given we gain vigor on evade.

I really want to see other build types opened up and especially those that use ports. Lets add enhancements to an Infiltrators arrow, a long range steal port, an infiltrators signet , a shadowstrike. I do not think it wise we just load more and more benfits onto "on evade’.

I am not opposed to creating a bunker thief that can last forever while dealing little damage. I am against acoomplishing that endpoint based upon “on evade” and again the problem with “on vigor” is that vigor premised “on evade”.

now you can argue that bountiful theft gets vigor but you are not going to get an on vigor trait from acro unless you take acro which means you already get vigor when you evade

Well, I think we’re in general agreement about direction, just disagreement about scope and path, which is fine, just hard to reconcile.

babazhook.6805:

Maugetarr.6823:

babazhook.6805:

Maugetarr.6823:

babazhook.6805:

Maugetarr.6823:

babazhook.6805:

PopeUrban.2578:

BrunoBRS.5178:

babazhook.6805:

BrunoBRS.5178:

babazhook.6805:

BIRDPUNCHER.8263:

Nike.2631:

Woaden.9425:

The issue now is that Acro needs a lot of love on it’s own, it can’t stand as its own line: Pain Response is a terrible condi clear (at the very least it needs to add torment and confusion), Guarded Initiation is useless, and the GM’s are outshined by minor-adept/minor-master traits in other lines, making the entire Acro line redundant on so many levels!

((looks at Assassin’s Reward))

((looks at raids being built around continuous unavoidable damage))

I can’t say I agree.

If you need continuous healing in PvE (I say PvE because you mention raids) Invigorating Precision is a better choice, in a better traitline, than Assassin’s Reward. The only time that Acro “stands as its own line” is gimmick situations like laser disarming in Aether fractal, and even then it will be made obsolete when Daredevil is live.

If you are going power certainly. If you are going condition in a unicorn build IP is a poor choice. IP needs high crits and high damage per crit. Assassins reward the damage is immaterial.

That all said without changes assassins reward does not warrant a GM trait. It needs a significant increase in its healing per INI and with its scaling to healing attribute.

It currently 69*INI +.05 healing and should be closer to 90 healing base and .15 healing. This would put its heal more in line with IP.

not that condi builds have a good reason to run acro in the first place. they probably want DA and trickery, and SA if they go for venoms. that leaves a choice between acro and daredevil. daredevil might not have a lot to offer in volume of traits, but the few traits condi users can benefit from are great, plus it gives access to impairing daggers. meanwhile acro… meh?

Actually there is(and more was) good reason to take Acro in a condition build .

dd/acro/da works well as does dd/acro/trickery. I used acro prior to the big patch because it gave health and a lot of dodges for the D/d set. In beta I ran tests with acro and the difference between traiting trickery and acro was not a lot.

Now it true many of the additions to DD make what is acro less desired from before patch but this is also true of power builds. If ACRO fixed i can forsee condition builds using it. Just as example HTC will refill endurance when triggered which can mean three more impaling lotus. This more condition damage loaded than one can get from BA or that extra 3 ini.

With the changes to Potent Poison the DA line is a little harder to give up in a condition build but i can certainly forsee someone going for maximum endurance for those dodges and that impaling lotus so as to increase condition damage and specifically in a d/d build and especially if the line is fixed.

it’s not just bewildering ambush, it’s caltrops on dodge as well, and bountiful theft gives you solid vigor uptime on top of stealing boons (to get rid of that resistance). then you have the reduced steal cooldown, which means endurance thief can be used more often as well.

not bringing DA is just out of question unless you’re running P/D condi, because dagger training + potent poison is a huge DPS increase.

which leaves acro competing with daredevil, which just isn’t happening.

IMO, acro should be a better defensive line, themed around vigor (and making your vigor do more cool stuff, like how other professions have “gain X benefit when you gain Y boon”), keeping the thief mobile, and defensive/utility benefits through dodging (whereas daredevil is all about using dodges offensively). the line in itself is already pointing towards that, it’s just grossly undertuned (swindler’s equilibrium being restricted to sword and only recharging one second, when trickery just outright takes those seconds off the max cooldown, for example) and clunky (pain response only removes 3 of the current 5 damaging conditions, only triggers if you let yourself get hit, and can be triggered when you don’t want it to, putting it on a long 20s CD)

to note: i’d still love a thief trait that cleanses one condition on shadowstep, which would be a perfect fit for an acro trait. i know it’s ridiculously strong, so make it a GM, and put assassin’s reward back on master tier where it belongs.

In all the suggestions about buffing acro I hadn’t really considered “extra vigor benefits” (heck, I myself invented a whole line around shadowsteps just to replace acro)

However, yeah, why not? What about “vigor also grants swiftness” or “reflect ranged attacks in a 1s ICD while you have vigor” or “When you gain vigor, reduce revealed by 1 second” or “lose 2 conditions every X second while you have vigor” or “gaining vigor also breaks stuns, and skills that grant vigor can be used while stunned”

So, like, you’d have this cadence, as you’d have a line that couldn’t give 100% uptime by itself, but similar to shadow arts, was built around “attack” and “defend” phases, only in stead of being invisible you’d just be rather hard to pin down even when you weren’t dodging?

If done right it could be a massive sustain line rivaling SA, and make taking two or three sustain lines actually pay off while nosediving your damage, or just give you real build options without DD for evasive specs.

Like, DD can empower builds to be basically immune to all slows, SA makes you immune to being seen… acro would make you highly resistant to stuns?

I was thinking pain response might work as a proc on vigor trait but then got to thinking it would not really help as you might gain vigor and not have any conditions on and proc the trait.

The types of benefits gleaned from a proc on vigor have to be the types one would always want but it a good suggestion. The problem of course if there too many or the boon/benefit too good they might make it harder to gain vigor in the first place and we back where we started. I think this the reason they dropped the missile avoidance thing if one gained swiftness.

Now given the Acro line inherently grants vigor on a successful evade and given escapists absolution clears a condition on a successful evade, what is the different between a proc on vigor condition cleanse over escapists resolution?

Why would it need a 10 second ICD attached. If it had a 1 second ICD, it would only ever be as powerful as escapist’s absolution, and then only because it’s combined with FG.

Well thats the point. it becomes the exact same skill. Meaning if I trait dd acro I clear 2 conditions on every evade. if one takes Acro line one aways has FG.

It a sort of power creep that can happen in that an evade does more and mrre stuff leading to a situation where a nerf called for because “hey on an evade the thief gets vigor, clears conditions, heals, avoids damage gets swiftness gets…..” and that too much.! nerf it!

Well you’d be taking 2 rather defensive lines at that point missing out on a lot of damage. You’d basically be making a bunker thief.

Indeed but it would lead to calls for a nerf and certain skills LIKE the withdraw heal would become even more powerful. RFI would all but supplant shadowstep and so on. There an overload of benefits on one game element. (evade)

Are you saying it would be bad if we could have another playstyle fulfilling another role? The thing is I don’t think it would be any more powerful than any other bunker spec because of the loss of damage. It wouldn’t even have the might stacking of the bruiser specs (i.e. cantrip D/D ele)

i was editing as you responded. In the last patch burning fires was changed so that eles no longer gain might on using a cantrip. If you read the eles threads many were finding that cantrips provided so many benefits when traited that is all people were taking.

What happnes if we stack too much stuff into one facet of play is we limit the build variety. “On evade” is getting enough events triggered off it. I think we are better served looking for another trigger type.

As example On using a teleport skill GAIN XXXX is much more desirable then more on evade type traits in acro.

The difference is we aren’t getting offense out of our defense, we are trading one for the other. We would lose key offensive multipliers and triggers like the 10% from DA, mug, and panic strike. It’s not like they nerfed the survivability of ele, they nerfed the offense while being so survivable. Stacking these skills would be like post nerf ele: very defensive, but not as overwhelming offensively. That said, I don’t think it would be anywhere near as strong because it lacks the might stacking and the majority of heals that ele has available. It would just have good resistance to condis, something that thief currently lacks right now. Also, since you mentioned giving up BT for trickster, that’s a significant loss of utility, reinforcing the idea that we are trading offense and utility to create a (potential) bunker spec.

Look at the thread in my signature though, because you used one of my other ideas as a preferable trait in your example. I think it would be nice if we could build control/bunker thieves that are meant to survive in trade for our damage.

babazhook.6805:

Maugetarr.6823:

babazhook.6805:

Maugetarr.6823:

babazhook.6805:

PopeUrban.2578:

BrunoBRS.5178:

babazhook.6805:

BrunoBRS.5178:

babazhook.6805:

BIRDPUNCHER.8263:

Nike.2631:

Woaden.9425:

The issue now is that Acro needs a lot of love on it’s own, it can’t stand as its own line: Pain Response is a terrible condi clear (at the very least it needs to add torment and confusion), Guarded Initiation is useless, and the GM’s are outshined by minor-adept/minor-master traits in other lines, making the entire Acro line redundant on so many levels!

((looks at Assassin’s Reward))

((looks at raids being built around continuous unavoidable damage))

I can’t say I agree.

If you need continuous healing in PvE (I say PvE because you mention raids) Invigorating Precision is a better choice, in a better traitline, than Assassin’s Reward. The only time that Acro “stands as its own line” is gimmick situations like laser disarming in Aether fractal, and even then it will be made obsolete when Daredevil is live.

If you are going power certainly. If you are going condition in a unicorn build IP is a poor choice. IP needs high crits and high damage per crit. Assassins reward the damage is immaterial.

That all said without changes assassins reward does not warrant a GM trait. It needs a significant increase in its healing per INI and with its scaling to healing attribute.

It currently 69*INI +.05 healing and should be closer to 90 healing base and .15 healing. This would put its heal more in line with IP.

not that condi builds have a good reason to run acro in the first place. they probably want DA and trickery, and SA if they go for venoms. that leaves a choice between acro and daredevil. daredevil might not have a lot to offer in volume of traits, but the few traits condi users can benefit from are great, plus it gives access to impairing daggers. meanwhile acro… meh?

Actually there is(and more was) good reason to take Acro in a condition build .

dd/acro/da works well as does dd/acro/trickery. I used acro prior to the big patch because it gave health and a lot of dodges for the D/d set. In beta I ran tests with acro and the difference between traiting trickery and acro was not a lot.

Now it true many of the additions to DD make what is acro less desired from before patch but this is also true of power builds. If ACRO fixed i can forsee condition builds using it. Just as example HTC will refill endurance when triggered which can mean three more impaling lotus. This more condition damage loaded than one can get from BA or that extra 3 ini.

With the changes to Potent Poison the DA line is a little harder to give up in a condition build but i can certainly forsee someone going for maximum endurance for those dodges and that impaling lotus so as to increase condition damage and specifically in a d/d build and especially if the line is fixed.

it’s not just bewildering ambush, it’s caltrops on dodge as well, and bountiful theft gives you solid vigor uptime on top of stealing boons (to get rid of that resistance). then you have the reduced steal cooldown, which means endurance thief can be used more often as well.

not bringing DA is just out of question unless you’re running P/D condi, because dagger training + potent poison is a huge DPS increase.

which leaves acro competing with daredevil, which just isn’t happening.

IMO, acro should be a better defensive line, themed around vigor (and making your vigor do more cool stuff, like how other professions have “gain X benefit when you gain Y boon”), keeping the thief mobile, and defensive/utility benefits through dodging (whereas daredevil is all about using dodges offensively). the line in itself is already pointing towards that, it’s just grossly undertuned (swindler’s equilibrium being restricted to sword and only recharging one second, when trickery just outright takes those seconds off the max cooldown, for example) and clunky (pain response only removes 3 of the current 5 damaging conditions, only triggers if you let yourself get hit, and can be triggered when you don’t want it to, putting it on a long 20s CD)

to note: i’d still love a thief trait that cleanses one condition on shadowstep, which would be a perfect fit for an acro trait. i know it’s ridiculously strong, so make it a GM, and put assassin’s reward back on master tier where it belongs.

In all the suggestions about buffing acro I hadn’t really considered “extra vigor benefits” (heck, I myself invented a whole line around shadowsteps just to replace acro)

However, yeah, why not? What about “vigor also grants swiftness” or “reflect ranged attacks in a 1s ICD while you have vigor” or “When you gain vigor, reduce revealed by 1 second” or “lose 2 conditions every X second while you have vigor” or “gaining vigor also breaks stuns, and skills that grant vigor can be used while stunned”

So, like, you’d have this cadence, as you’d have a line that couldn’t give 100% uptime by itself, but similar to shadow arts, was built around “attack” and “defend” phases, only in stead of being invisible you’d just be rather hard to pin down even when you weren’t dodging?

If done right it could be a massive sustain line rivaling SA, and make taking two or three sustain lines actually pay off while nosediving your damage, or just give you real build options without DD for evasive specs.

Like, DD can empower builds to be basically immune to all slows, SA makes you immune to being seen… acro would make you highly resistant to stuns?

I was thinking pain response might work as a proc on vigor trait but then got to thinking it would not really help as you might gain vigor and not have any conditions on and proc the trait.

The types of benefits gleaned from a proc on vigor have to be the types one would always want but it a good suggestion. The problem of course if there too many or the boon/benefit too good they might make it harder to gain vigor in the first place and we back where we started. I think this the reason they dropped the missile avoidance thing if one gained swiftness.

Now given the Acro line inherently grants vigor on a successful evade and given escapists absolution clears a condition on a successful evade, what is the different between a proc on vigor condition cleanse over escapists resolution?

Why would it need a 10 second ICD attached. If it had a 1 second ICD, it would only ever be as powerful as escapist’s absolution, and then only because it’s combined with FG.

Well thats the point. it becomes the exact same skill. Meaning if I trait dd acro I clear 2 conditions on every evade. if one takes Acro line one aways has FG.

It a sort of power creep that can happen in that an evade does more and mrre stuff leading to a situation where a nerf called for because “hey on an evade the thief gets vigor, clears conditions, heals, avoids damage gets swiftness gets…..” and that too much.! nerf it!

Well you’d be taking 2 rather defensive lines at that point missing out on a lot of damage. You’d basically be making a bunker thief.

Indeed but it would lead to calls for a nerf and certain skills LIKE the withdraw heal would become even more powerful. RFI would all but supplant shadowstep and so on. There an overload of benefits on one game element. (evade)

Are you saying it would be bad if we could have another playstyle fulfilling another role? The thing is I don’t think it would be any more powerful than any other bunker spec because of the loss of damage. It wouldn’t even have the might stacking of the bruiser specs (i.e. cantrip D/D ele)

babazhook.6805:

Maugetarr.6823:

babazhook.6805:

PopeUrban.2578:

BrunoBRS.5178:

babazhook.6805:

BrunoBRS.5178:

babazhook.6805:

BIRDPUNCHER.8263:

Nike.2631:

Woaden.9425:

The issue now is that Acro needs a lot of love on it’s own, it can’t stand as its own line: Pain Response is a terrible condi clear (at the very least it needs to add torment and confusion), Guarded Initiation is useless, and the GM’s are outshined by minor-adept/minor-master traits in other lines, making the entire Acro line redundant on so many levels!

((looks at Assassin’s Reward))

((looks at raids being built around continuous unavoidable damage))

I can’t say I agree.

If you need continuous healing in PvE (I say PvE because you mention raids) Invigorating Precision is a better choice, in a better traitline, than Assassin’s Reward. The only time that Acro “stands as its own line” is gimmick situations like laser disarming in Aether fractal, and even then it will be made obsolete when Daredevil is live.

If you are going power certainly. If you are going condition in a unicorn build IP is a poor choice. IP needs high crits and high damage per crit. Assassins reward the damage is immaterial.

That all said without changes assassins reward does not warrant a GM trait. It needs a significant increase in its healing per INI and with its scaling to healing attribute.

It currently 69*INI +.05 healing and should be closer to 90 healing base and .15 healing. This would put its heal more in line with IP.

not that condi builds have a good reason to run acro in the first place. they probably want DA and trickery, and SA if they go for venoms. that leaves a choice between acro and daredevil. daredevil might not have a lot to offer in volume of traits, but the few traits condi users can benefit from are great, plus it gives access to impairing daggers. meanwhile acro… meh?

Actually there is(and more was) good reason to take Acro in a condition build .

dd/acro/da works well as does dd/acro/trickery. I used acro prior to the big patch because it gave health and a lot of dodges for the D/d set. In beta I ran tests with acro and the difference between traiting trickery and acro was not a lot.

Now it true many of the additions to DD make what is acro less desired from before patch but this is also true of power builds. If ACRO fixed i can forsee condition builds using it. Just as example HTC will refill endurance when triggered which can mean three more impaling lotus. This more condition damage loaded than one can get from BA or that extra 3 ini.

With the changes to Potent Poison the DA line is a little harder to give up in a condition build but i can certainly forsee someone going for maximum endurance for those dodges and that impaling lotus so as to increase condition damage and specifically in a d/d build and especially if the line is fixed.

it’s not just bewildering ambush, it’s caltrops on dodge as well, and bountiful theft gives you solid vigor uptime on top of stealing boons (to get rid of that resistance). then you have the reduced steal cooldown, which means endurance thief can be used more often as well.

not bringing DA is just out of question unless you’re running P/D condi, because dagger training + potent poison is a huge DPS increase.

which leaves acro competing with daredevil, which just isn’t happening.

IMO, acro should be a better defensive line, themed around vigor (and making your vigor do more cool stuff, like how other professions have “gain X benefit when you gain Y boon”), keeping the thief mobile, and defensive/utility benefits through dodging (whereas daredevil is all about using dodges offensively). the line in itself is already pointing towards that, it’s just grossly undertuned (swindler’s equilibrium being restricted to sword and only recharging one second, when trickery just outright takes those seconds off the max cooldown, for example) and clunky (pain response only removes 3 of the current 5 damaging conditions, only triggers if you let yourself get hit, and can be triggered when you don’t want it to, putting it on a long 20s CD)

to note: i’d still love a thief trait that cleanses one condition on shadowstep, which would be a perfect fit for an acro trait. i know it’s ridiculously strong, so make it a GM, and put assassin’s reward back on master tier where it belongs.

In all the suggestions about buffing acro I hadn’t really considered “extra vigor benefits” (heck, I myself invented a whole line around shadowsteps just to replace acro)

However, yeah, why not? What about “vigor also grants swiftness” or “reflect ranged attacks in a 1s ICD while you have vigor” or “When you gain vigor, reduce revealed by 1 second” or “lose 2 conditions every X second while you have vigor” or “gaining vigor also breaks stuns, and skills that grant vigor can be used while stunned”

So, like, you’d have this cadence, as you’d have a line that couldn’t give 100% uptime by itself, but similar to shadow arts, was built around “attack” and “defend” phases, only in stead of being invisible you’d just be rather hard to pin down even when you weren’t dodging?

If done right it could be a massive sustain line rivaling SA, and make taking two or three sustain lines actually pay off while nosediving your damage, or just give you real build options without DD for evasive specs.

Like, DD can empower builds to be basically immune to all slows, SA makes you immune to being seen… acro would make you highly resistant to stuns?

I was thinking pain response might work as a proc on vigor trait but then got to thinking it would not really help as you might gain vigor and not have any conditions on and proc the trait.

The types of benefits gleaned from a proc on vigor have to be the types one would always want but it a good suggestion. The problem of course if there too many or the boon/benefit too good they might make it harder to gain vigor in the first place and we back where we started. I think this the reason they dropped the missile avoidance thing if one gained swiftness.

Now given the Acro line inherently grants vigor on a successful evade and given escapists absolution clears a condition on a successful evade, what is the different between a proc on vigor condition cleanse over escapists resolution?

Why would it need a 10 second ICD attached. If it had a 1 second ICD, it would only ever be as powerful as escapist’s absolution, and then only because it’s combined with FG.

Well thats the point. it becomes the exact same skill. Meaning if I trait dd acro I clear 2 conditions on every evade. if one takes Acro line one aways has FG.

It a sort of power creep that can happen in that an evade does more and mrre stuff leading to a situation where a nerf called for because “hey on an evade the thief gets vigor, clears conditions, heals, avoids damage gets swiftness gets…..” and that too much.! nerf it!

Well you’d be taking 2 rather defensive lines at that point missing out on a lot of damage. You’d basically be making a bunker thief.

Edit: Being able to trade damage for survivability but not having both simultaneously is good design IMO.

Edit 2: It’s almost like throwing all of your traits into steal, but dodges instead.

babazhook.6805:

PopeUrban.2578:

BrunoBRS.5178:

babazhook.6805:

BrunoBRS.5178:

babazhook.6805:

BIRDPUNCHER.8263:

Nike.2631:

Woaden.9425:

The issue now is that Acro needs a lot of love on it’s own, it can’t stand as its own line: Pain Response is a terrible condi clear (at the very least it needs to add torment and confusion), Guarded Initiation is useless, and the GM’s are outshined by minor-adept/minor-master traits in other lines, making the entire Acro line redundant on so many levels!

((looks at Assassin’s Reward))

((looks at raids being built around continuous unavoidable damage))

I can’t say I agree.

If you need continuous healing in PvE (I say PvE because you mention raids) Invigorating Precision is a better choice, in a better traitline, than Assassin’s Reward. The only time that Acro “stands as its own line” is gimmick situations like laser disarming in Aether fractal, and even then it will be made obsolete when Daredevil is live.

If you are going power certainly. If you are going condition in a unicorn build IP is a poor choice. IP needs high crits and high damage per crit. Assassins reward the damage is immaterial.

That all said without changes assassins reward does not warrant a GM trait. It needs a significant increase in its healing per INI and with its scaling to healing attribute.

It currently 69*INI +.05 healing and should be closer to 90 healing base and .15 healing. This would put its heal more in line with IP.

not that condi builds have a good reason to run acro in the first place. they probably want DA and trickery, and SA if they go for venoms. that leaves a choice between acro and daredevil. daredevil might not have a lot to offer in volume of traits, but the few traits condi users can benefit from are great, plus it gives access to impairing daggers. meanwhile acro… meh?

Actually there is(and more was) good reason to take Acro in a condition build .

dd/acro/da works well as does dd/acro/trickery. I used acro prior to the big patch because it gave health and a lot of dodges for the D/d set. In beta I ran tests with acro and the difference between traiting trickery and acro was not a lot.

Now it true many of the additions to DD make what is acro less desired from before patch but this is also true of power builds. If ACRO fixed i can forsee condition builds using it. Just as example HTC will refill endurance when triggered which can mean three more impaling lotus. This more condition damage loaded than one can get from BA or that extra 3 ini.

With the changes to Potent Poison the DA line is a little harder to give up in a condition build but i can certainly forsee someone going for maximum endurance for those dodges and that impaling lotus so as to increase condition damage and specifically in a d/d build and especially if the line is fixed.

it’s not just bewildering ambush, it’s caltrops on dodge as well, and bountiful theft gives you solid vigor uptime on top of stealing boons (to get rid of that resistance). then you have the reduced steal cooldown, which means endurance thief can be used more often as well.

not bringing DA is just out of question unless you’re running P/D condi, because dagger training + potent poison is a huge DPS increase.

which leaves acro competing with daredevil, which just isn’t happening.

IMO, acro should be a better defensive line, themed around vigor (and making your vigor do more cool stuff, like how other professions have “gain X benefit when you gain Y boon”), keeping the thief mobile, and defensive/utility benefits through dodging (whereas daredevil is all about using dodges offensively). the line in itself is already pointing towards that, it’s just grossly undertuned (swindler’s equilibrium being restricted to sword and only recharging one second, when trickery just outright takes those seconds off the max cooldown, for example) and clunky (pain response only removes 3 of the current 5 damaging conditions, only triggers if you let yourself get hit, and can be triggered when you don’t want it to, putting it on a long 20s CD)

to note: i’d still love a thief trait that cleanses one condition on shadowstep, which would be a perfect fit for an acro trait. i know it’s ridiculously strong, so make it a GM, and put assassin’s reward back on master tier where it belongs.

In all the suggestions about buffing acro I hadn’t really considered “extra vigor benefits” (heck, I myself invented a whole line around shadowsteps just to replace acro)

However, yeah, why not? What about “vigor also grants swiftness” or “reflect ranged attacks in a 1s ICD while you have vigor” or “When you gain vigor, reduce revealed by 1 second” or “lose 2 conditions every X second while you have vigor” or “gaining vigor also breaks stuns, and skills that grant vigor can be used while stunned”

So, like, you’d have this cadence, as you’d have a line that couldn’t give 100% uptime by itself, but similar to shadow arts, was built around “attack” and “defend” phases, only in stead of being invisible you’d just be rather hard to pin down even when you weren’t dodging?

If done right it could be a massive sustain line rivaling SA, and make taking two or three sustain lines actually pay off while nosediving your damage, or just give you real build options without DD for evasive specs.

Like, DD can empower builds to be basically immune to all slows, SA makes you immune to being seen… acro would make you highly resistant to stuns?

I was thinking pain response might work as a proc on vigor trait but then got to thinking it would not really help as you might gain vigor and not have any conditions on and proc the trait.

The types of benefits gleaned from a proc on vigor have to be the types one would always want but it a good suggestion. The problem of course if there too many or the boon/benefit too good they might make it harder to gain vigor in the first place and we back where we started. I think this the reason they dropped the missile avoidance thing if one gained swiftness.

Now given the Acro line inherently grants vigor on a successful evade and given escapists absolution clears a condition on a successful evade, what is the different between a proc on vigor condition cleanse over escapists resolution?

Why would it need a 10 second ICD attached. If it had a 1 second ICD, it would only ever be as powerful as escapist’s absolution, and then only because it’s combined with FG.

Edit: Edited as I was responding. … If it was tacked on to vigorous recovery, then you’d have an extra condi clear attached to the heal. Also DrD and Acro would yhen compliment each other allowing you to pick up similar traits to compounded with each other or create more build variety by selecting either.

BrunoBRS.5178:

Maugetarr.6823:

BrunoBRS.5178:

Maugetarr.6823:

BrunoBRS.5178:

Maugetarr.6823:

The idea is to have options. This would tack an additional condi cleanse onto our heals as well as giving decent synergy with FG. Pain Response is more burst removal. This would be sustained removal.

but pain response is completely off of your control. you need to be hit while under 75% health (something a thief shouldn’t be encouraged to do just to remove their condis), and it can trigger when you wouldn’t want it to (oh noes, one stack of bleeding got cleansed, now it’s 20 more seconds unable to get any cleanses from this trait).

pain response is a bad, unreliable trait, and even if it wasn’t, having two traits centered around the same function (condi cleanse, in this case) on the same tier is unheard of in the game, because it’s redundant. it’s best to have a trait that gives you one function, and another that gives you an actual choice, than two different flavors of the same thing.

While I agree that pain response is a mediocre trait at best, I didn’t want to remove it because it is widely liked (at least when I’ve suggested changing it before). I left the 3 autoprocs in the line that are useful alone because people prefer different playstyles.

i’d like to see pain response’s trigger to be something different than on hit. also give it a lower cooldown than 20s. maybe every 10s if you have more than 3 conditions on you and you’re below the threshold. or if you’re going to keep the CD on 20s, make it clear torment and confusion as well.

Haha, well, where were you when I threw together my original list before DrD came out?!

Pain Response should trigger on number of conditions (3) only, the same way Burning Fire does. Instead of gaining might on [type of] skill usage though, just have it remove all damaging conditions.

Above was my original change to it. I only got push back on the idea so I didn’t suggest it again after DrD came out.

Here’s the original thread with the back and forth somewhere in it

probably jaded of the thief forums, as usual. only reason i’m sticking around for so long right now is because of all the dev communication regarding daredevil, or else i’d have left again by now.

the thief forum has a tendency to be incredibly whiny about the wrong things, and a lot of people here ask for buffs so preposterous is’s a waste of a potentially interesting conversation (looking at you, people that think revealed shouldn’t exist or that shortbow should get its own, third weapon slot)

Makes sense. I think you’ve been around here for as long as I have, just more off and on. Sure there are some ridiculous suggestions, but that’s what the back and forth is for. I understand the frustration though.

Hopefully one day soon ish we’ll get a response on the threads to fix some of the defensive lines. SA needs some tweaks. Acro needs an overhaul and retheming.

An F3 ground targeted 1200 shadowstep on a 15 second CD with no other effects would open up some build variety. SB 5 could have it’s range reduced to 600 and initiative bumped down to 5 so it’s still great in-combat mobility.

Okie dokie, suggestion:

Thieves practice an agile, acrobatic fighting style, which can make them very flashy before being locked into aftercast frames.
They’re mediocre in one-on-one combat using their shortbow, shadowstep, and the ability to stealth to run away once they are overcome by their enemies.

BrunoBRS.5178:

Maugetarr.6823:

BrunoBRS.5178:

Maugetarr.6823:

The idea is to have options. This would tack an additional condi cleanse onto our heals as well as giving decent synergy with FG. Pain Response is more burst removal. This would be sustained removal.

but pain response is completely off of your control. you need to be hit while under 75% health (something a thief shouldn’t be encouraged to do just to remove their condis), and it can trigger when you wouldn’t want it to (oh noes, one stack of bleeding got cleansed, now it’s 20 more seconds unable to get any cleanses from this trait).

pain response is a bad, unreliable trait, and even if it wasn’t, having two traits centered around the same function (condi cleanse, in this case) on the same tier is unheard of in the game, because it’s redundant. it’s best to have a trait that gives you one function, and another that gives you an actual choice, than two different flavors of the same thing.

While I agree that pain response is a mediocre trait at best, I didn’t want to remove it because it is widely liked (at least when I’ve suggested changing it before). I left the 3 autoprocs in the line that are useful alone because people prefer different playstyles.

i’d like to see pain response’s trigger to be something different than on hit. also give it a lower cooldown than 20s. maybe every 10s if you have more than 3 conditions on you and you’re below the threshold. or if you’re going to keep the CD on 20s, make it clear torment and confusion as well.

Haha, well, where were you when I threw together my original list before DrD came out?!

Pain Response should trigger on number of conditions (3) only, the same way Burning Fire does. Instead of gaining might on [type of] skill usage though, just have it remove all damaging conditions.

Above was my original change to it. I only got push back on the idea so I didn’t suggest it again after DrD came out.

Here’s the original thread with the back and forth somewhere in it

BrunoBRS.5178:

Maugetarr.6823:

The idea is to have options. This would tack an additional condi cleanse onto our heals as well as giving decent synergy with FG. Pain Response is more burst removal. This would be sustained removal.

but pain response is completely off of your control. you need to be hit while under 75% health (something a thief shouldn’t be encouraged to do just to remove their condis), and it can trigger when you wouldn’t want it to (oh noes, one stack of bleeding got cleansed, now it’s 20 more seconds unable to get any cleanses from this trait).

pain response is a bad, unreliable trait, and even if it wasn’t, having two traits centered around the same function (condi cleanse, in this case) on the same tier is unheard of in the game, because it’s redundant. it’s best to have a trait that gives you one function, and another that gives you an actual choice, than two different flavors of the same thing.

While I agree that pain response is a mediocre trait at best, I didn’t want to remove it because it is widely liked (at least when I’ve suggested changing it before). I left the 3 autoprocs in the line that are useful alone because people prefer different playstyles.

BrunoBRS.5178:

Maugetarr.6823:

Expeditious Dodger: 3 seconds of swiftness on dodge.
ME: Fleet Shadow->Explosive Speed: Gain 3 seconds of super speed when you gain swiftness (8 sec ICD)

completely forgot to mention this trait on my own list. agree that it needs to change, really like the idea of giving thief access to superspeed. the mobility profession doesn’t have the ultimate mobility boon. it’s weird.

EM: Pain Response: Fine as is
BE: Vigorous Recovery: Gain 5 seconds of vigor on heal. When you gain vigor, lose a condition (5 sec ICD)

with pain response’s cooldown, acro’s large access to vigor, wouldn’t both skills being about condi cleansing be a bit redundant? i know if i had condi clear on vigor, i’d never see a reason to take pain response. that said, i think condi clear on vigor is an interesting idea.

The idea is to have options. This would tack an additional condi cleanse onto our heals as well as giving decent synergy with FG. Pain Response is more burst removal. This would be sustained removal.

ME: Guarded Initiation -> Captive Transversal: When you shadowstep to a target, immobilize that target for 1.5 seconds (8 sec ICD)

how would that work with all the untargeted shadowsteps, or the ones that don’t reach? or the returns? or shadow trap? i agree that guarded initiation needs to be scrapped for another trait, but i’m not sure if that’s the best option.

It would have to be something like checking for your target at the end of a shadowstep. If your target isn’t there or you dont have a target selected it would immobilize (1-3 targets) in a radius 180 (melee).

BE: Swindler’s Equilibrium: Reduce steal cooldown by 3 seconds on successful evasion. No weapon restriction (5 sec ICD)

i like it.

ME: Assassin’s Reward -> Swindler’s Transversal: When you shadowstep to your target, transfer 1 condition and steal 1 boon (8 sec ICD)

same as the other, it’s basically a trait for steal and infiltrator strike, most shadowsteps on thief would have weird/unintended behavior with it. plus, i like assassin’s reward, it just needs a buff.

It would function thes same way as I described the other trait. Assassin’s Reward isn’t that bad but it’s weaker than IP and the new trait in DrD. I would rather see more boon-hate introduced so that we gain a benefit in sustained combat.

BE: Upper Hand: Gain 3-5 endurance on hitting the opponent (1 sec ICD) (would need to be play tested to determine strength)

i preferred the initiative gain, TBH. daredevil is more focused on raw endurance gain, acro already gains endurance through high vigor uptime. allowing for good initiative regen through a trait would give acro an offensive edge on an otherwise defensive line.

Mathematically the endurance gain from acro right now is weak since it doesn’t stack with vigor. Upper hand is sort of “meh.” I felt a strong, agressive endurance regen trait would pair well as a GM trait, and would compliment the DrD GMs without stepping on their toes. 5 endurance a second was based off dagger autos, so I thought it would pair well with sword or just a nice tack on to daggers.

Overall, I had a lot of ideas for aome of the core changes needed to thief. The non-acro ones are in my signature.

Blatant Repost of my Acrobatics Ideas

Basically, my idea is to offer 3 different types of enhancement that could be taken together as a single row or mixed. These are mobility enhancement(ME), brawling enhancement (BE), and effect mitigation(EM).

Adept

Expeditious Dodger: 3 seconds of swiftness on dodge.
ME: Fleet Shadow->Explosive Speed: Gain 3 seconds of super speed when you gain swiftness (8 sec ICD)
EM: Pain Response: Fine as is
BE: Vigorous Recovery: Gain 5 seconds of vigor on heal. When you gain vigor, lose a condition (5 sec ICD)

Master

Feline Grace: Fine as is
ME: Guarded Initiation -> Captive Transversal: When you shadowstep to a target, immobilize that target for 1.5 seconds (8 sec ICD)
EM: Hard to Catch: Fine as is
BE: Swindler’s Equilibrium: Reduce steal cooldown by 3 seconds on successful evasion. No weapon restriction (5 sec ICD)

Grandmaster

Endless Stamina: Fine as is
ME: Assassin’s Reward -> Swindler’s Transversal: When you shadowstep to your target, transfer 1 condition and steal 1 boon (8 sec ICD)
EM: Don’t Stop: Fine as is
BE: Upper Hand: Gain 3-5 endurance on hitting the opponent (1 sec ICD) (would need to be play tested to determine strength)

Ok. This supposed to be heavy on different mechanisms for condi removal since it’s a defensive line. I think with these changes, it could favor S/X, but not be limited to it (much like SA favors but isn’t limited to D/P). Some of the changes to my original suggestions were because of Raiden’s input along with the the previewed traits. My hope is that these changes could supplement Trickery or DD well while also allowing the line to stand on its own.

Thief-main here(ele secondary/tertiary depending on my mood). I don’t think cantrips need the might back. The other utilities and traits need to be brought up instead on ele. For instance, elemental surge and arcane precision sort of step on each other’s toes. Take the condi application out of elemental surge and roll it into arcane precision instead. Then give elemental surge the thief/ranger treatment and have it remove 2 condis when you use an arcane spell. On top of that, arcane shield could use a competitive CD at 40 – 45 seconds. Arcane brilliance couls use a better cast time at 0.25 – 0.5 seconds. I think bringing some of the other utilities up for ele would be better than rebuffing cantrips.

As long as this didn’t lock us into a forced movement like ranger sword auto I would love these.

An idea for staff attacks since they seem a little lackluster.

Autochain: Fine as is

#2: A powerful hit that doesn’t move you but causes weakness. Whirl finisher. Use the warrior GS burst attack (arcing slice)

#3: Just put warrior’s GS #3 attack here that breaks immobilize, cripples, and evades. That would give staff the ability to retreat, reposition, or attack depending on what’s needed. There seems to be a lot of disagreement about the direction of the forced movement, so just let the player choose.

#4: Make it a conic attack like warrior’s hammer shock with a 2 second dark or smoke field afterwards.

#5: Since the AoE hit seems relatively small, make it a half second leap, so it’s still dodgeable, but you can hit a moving target.

Is gunflame a true projectile or is it like blunderbuss? (blunderbuss can’t be reflected iirc)

Something to think about though is that it’s not really repackaged, it’s just got all the Major traits that Acro should have had. It doesn’t have the increased endurance regen that acro used to have, so it actually only has one more dodge than base thief with no trait lines. If they would increase the regen by scaling it with the endurance pool, it would be acro 2.0.

I mean if he’s playing celestial and not stacking might, of course his damage will be weak. You should invite him to try celestial thief or maurader ele.

Rin.1046:

In my opinion the only thing that needs improving on the Daredevil now are some of the staff skills. If they added a directional evade (something like warrior’s greatsword whirl attack), and a non-stealth interrupt option, the staff would be able to compete with the thief’s other weapon sets. At the moment all other weapon sets outshine the staff in almost every way except damage. If the staff gave you more control over where you evade to, I think it would be a much better weapon.

Seconded.

I think #2 would be a prime candidate for the whirlwind treatment instead of being tied to a target like heartseeker.

Shimekiri.1580:

Maugetarr.6823:

@ Shimekiri let me explain why unload is bad in another way that may make it more apparent why I think unload is bad.

Per shot, vital shot has a 0.5 multipler now (with minor bleed). Shot to Shot this results in a 0.61 multiplier per second damage output.

Per shot, Unload is a 0.38ish multiplier now. Accounting for 5 initiative recharge over 5 seconds, it has a 0.60 multiplier per second.

Unload is literally adding nothing to the set except firing a weaker autoattack faster. The only thing it’s adding is a cool animation. By moving some of the damage to auto, and then changing the functionality of unload, you’d have a stronger, more competitive set. Don’t get me wrong, the new #3 could have some burst in it like I’ve explained, but right now Unload does nothing except for substitute for a poor autoattack while sinking initiative into it that should be used somewhere else.

If you like unload and the current playstyle of pistols, I would say the better thing to ask for is a change to the animation of vital shot when 2 pistols are being used.

The thing is, I understand fully what you’re after, but what we’re after are two completely different things. Two different playstyles. What you want, is for P/P to turn into an AA based dps/utility set, with 3 utility skills + 1 gap opener that would be used more often than currently. What I’m after, is a dps that actually engages me into controlling said DPS level, by controlling the level of the burst and the speed of the burst that Unload provides in its current state. I have never, ever liked any DPS in any game, that gives me just pure utility and an autoattack. Its a personal preference, but I want solid control over my DPS, on how quickly or slowly I’m dishing it out. Its a different form of utility in the PvP scene. With that in mind, I’ve been suggesting things that would leave this playstyle intact, while still trying make changes that would benefit everyone playing the set aswell. You’re just on the opposite side of the fence, where you’re used to(Or its your preferred playstyle.) AA being the primary/only source of reliable damage and then the rest being utility. Its not about any animation, its about interaction with the weaponset and how to utilize it. I dislike what you’re after and you dislike what I’m after, which has become quite obvious. :P In that sense, there’s no point in us arguing as we’re both just after different things to make the set playable in the playstyles we prefer it. Have to say though, it’s been a nice change to have an “argument” without the usual “screaming, shouting, ranting and name calling”.

Also, just for arguments sake, Unload doesn’t sink in initiative that could be used elsewhere. Any player worth his/her weight will use the other skills, primarily Head Shot and Black Powder in this case, when its called for and drop the dps as a priority. Its a choice that’s forced onto the player and I personally like that fact that you’re forced to make choices, instead of having the ability to have both worlds unhindered. What I don’t like is that currently the tradeoff is still a little bit too large, which could be solved by increasing the cast speed of Vital Shot to 1/3s, removing the pre-cast animation for Vital Shot or by taking the pre-cast animation into account when designing the cast speed and actual firing animation speed. To prevent things from looking silly, hands could alternative between firing the weapon, so the animations wouldn’t look too rushed, or alternatively, change to animation to have the firing hand stay up and in firing position, only doing the recoil twitch between firing rounds.

Yeah, I’ll have to agree with you on this one. We are just after different things. Guess they just need to add longbow or rifle to give us more options. It has been a nice back and forth though. Just gotta agree to disagree on this one I guess.

Once people realize that all they have to do is dodge, interrupt, or reflect the 3.0 multiplier skill Unload is right now it’ll return to the same place. When something is so rarely used it surprises people the first time.

Depends. Did he swoop in after you were down or were you fighting alongside him and go down first? A thief just coming in on a fight where someone is down is likely to blow a SR on someone who didn’t know they were going to get helped. Is much better to interrupt the stomp if possible in that situation, then throw the Refuge so it doesn’t get wasted. If I’m playing with an actual team, I’ll tell them to stop attacking before I throw it (when I’m running it). If I’m pugging it, I’ll try to interrupt the stomp instead.

@ Shimekiri let me explain why unload is bad in another way that may make it more apparent why I think unload is bad.

Per shot, vital shot has a 0.5 multipler now (with minor bleed). Shot to Shot this results in a 0.61 multiplier per second damage output.

Per shot, Unload is a 0.38ish multiplier now. Accounting for 5 initiative recharge over 5 seconds, it has a 0.60 multiplier per second.

Unload is literally adding nothing to the set except firing a weaker autoattack faster. The only thing it’s adding is a cool animation. By moving some of the damage to auto, and then changing the functionality of unload, you’d have a stronger, more competitive set. Don’t get me wrong, the new #3 could have some burst in it like I’ve explained, but right now Unload does nothing except for substitute for a poor autoattack while sinking initiative into it that should be used somewhere else.

If you like unload and the current playstyle of pistols, I would say the better thing to ask for is a change to the animation of vital shot when 2 pistols are being used.

forum bug

Shimekiri.1580:

Maugetarr.6823:

The roll could be as short as 300 which is a standard dodge roll. The set is not working outside of PvE for what seems to be the vast majority of thief players. I don’t know the exact usage rates, but it’s low enough that pistols have been chosen to be addressed. Including the damage boost that was added, the 4 shots would be a 1.5 multiplier overall, putting it at midrange heartseeker. The initiative could be lowered to 4 as well at that point. Adding a mobility skill to pistol #2 is just trying to copy SB. If thieves need more evasion/mobility outside of SB, that should be addressed with utilities. RFI would be a good example. The initiative gain and cooldown could be cut in half allowing you to use it more often.
My overall point is that P/P is not working. Limiting what they’re allowed to mechanically change to only number 2 is not going to fix it or else these number changes would have come close to fixing it. I’m not saying take away the burst. The damage from the reworked unload would still be relatively high and at the same rate. P/P needs to be a strong in-combat weapon set with staying power, not more ability to run.

Tldr: Unload needs to change to fix the set.

Tell me, with solid reasoning, why could said utility you’re after, which is mobility in one form, not be inserted into Body Shot slot instead of destroying the the playstyle of others for your own enjoyment? If the skill being revamped into such a gap opener, dodging backwards in your suggestion, would be Body Shot, it wouldn’t bother the other set of users either and more than likely both sides would get what they’re after.

I’m after survivability, not mobility. P/P is a stealthless set (without a specific setup on DrD). All the other sets have survivability on the #3 skill. In fact, Unload offers nothing but damage. If they made the P/P autoattack have a unique animation that alternated firing pistols instead of firing from the mainhand one, it would be exactly the same. Unload does nothing except make up for the poor auto damage which I went into in the other thread that for the initiative recharge of 5 seconds, it is exactly the same DPS as the autoattack. Unload is a stopgap that makes P/P usable in PvE against single targets that don’t dodge.

A problem you’re overlooking in defending unload is that right now in PvE you can be effective just by sitting at max range and hitting 3. The new PvE content is supposed to change that by giving us smarter AI.

You also seem to ignore the obvious fact that the burst would be ruined, completely, with your change. You can’t use an ability for burst dps, if you’re not within melee range when starting said burst, if a backwards dodge was added into it, with your theoretical distance value of 300. Also you need to note that in PvE, you’re almost never that close to a boss, which would mean the burst would simply cease to exist or it would be a massively nerfed version. The only way to make your suggestion work with Unload, without hindering the burst dps capability, would be to make the travelled distance so miniscule that it’d end up being useless in PvP as a gap opener anyway.

This would not affect the burst. You could use the skill twice in the same timeframe for the same damage. It is still a 1.5 multiplier using it once after this damage buff which is equivalent to a mid range heartseeker, (which is a burst skill). The difference is that as a 1.5 multiplier above 50% health and below 25% health, it would be stable and usable at range. It’s not hindering the burst DPS at all. The overall DPS of the set would rise as well as bringing utility to it.

Quick edit: You’re also wrong with the fact that the changes that were just implemented should’ve fixed the spec, if the issue wasn’t Unload. The issue here is the fact that Vital Shot is too weak. Increase its cast speed to 1/3s from the current 1/2s and we’d be closer to “fixed” when speaking about our dps overall. What would then be left, is to give us the gap opener a lot of us want, which is what I’ve been meaning with changing Body Shot into a mobility skill of some sort and AoE capability via a pierce effect, since bounce seems to be off the table.

I have advocated adding a piercing trait to the Trickery line. Increasing the attack speed will be a DPS boost which will not change the set mechanically; you’d just choose between firing 1 pistol to firing 2 pistols by hitting unload….. If unload is that much fun, the animation of the autoattack for (P/P specifically) should be changed because that’s all unload is. Gaining quickness would then make the auto into an exact replication of unload. You’re overlooking the fact that Vital shot just got a damage boost also, and that’s not going to help the set without further adjustments to how the set plays.

Just changing body shot is not the answer either. Making it into a mobility skill would just give P/D 2 mobility skills and make it a weaker version of SB. Giving it the poison and a boon strip would give it both P/X sets the ability to wear down boon-regen bunkers in combat better for the tradeoff of mobility which is highly available on our other ranged set.